So why are we gonna throw from 15? Is it just to make it more difficult? Is it just cause? Is it to show the skill of the top throwers? What's the reasoning behind the distance change?
New boards do look fun. still not for the 15 foot rule. Everyone I have talk to seems like no one will be trying for pro status anymore and has kind of made then turn away from the game. We all ready seen one league member quit hatchet and just going to focus on big axe. what he played in many tournaments last year. Even my self feels like the being a 52+ avg thrower not sure if play in leagues anymore after this year if the new rules go into effect. Both venues I play at can't really do 15 foot safely especially for big leagues. Thanks for the video
It is purely a choice for each individual thrower. If you do not want to throw from 15' - you have the ability to remain in the competitive format. There will still be a few limited ways for non-pro's to earn their way to Worlds using this format BUT there will be more options/opportunities throwing with the pro version of the game (from 15') If you don't care about that - stick at 12' and enjoy the game your way!
@@arguslycaon754 It is as of yet undetermined, but the goal at Worlds is to have 2 divisions. In the case of a single division tho, it would absolutely be under the pro set of rules. So if someone were to qualify for worlds on the 12' rules, and there was only a single division of competition, they would be doing themselves a disservice in not practicing at 15'. Likely they would get quickly knocked out of the competition. I can see some players, however, making a choice to try and qualify under the non-pro rules, and practicing their hearts out to compete under the pro ruleset at the World Championships.
Im fine with the extra bullseyes and kills. Kinda like it even. Gotta go back on that 15' throw though. I just dont see the need and telling everyone to just buy another axe for the longer throw is not a good look
Throwing from 15' is an option, not required. If you do not want to compete at the pro level, you never have to move back. When you are ready to compete at that level, then you can choose to throw "pro", only at that point are you required to go back to 15'
@@mikemorton3306 One of the biggest allures to this sport is throwing the same game the pros do. Practicing the same ways the pros do. Many, myself included, love that I can go to a tourney and throw against a pro. I dont think agree that seperating the game and telling people to do the 15' throw when we can get on their level is good for the sport. I want to compete against pros even if I often lose. I dont like that the throw I have been practicing for thousands of hours and the several expensive axes I own that are tailored to that specific throw are useless for half a game if I want to play at that level. I get making the game more difficult. We see a ton of 64's nowadays. We gotta have some excitement added back in. Like I said, I love the idea of multiple bullseyes, more killshots. Cool. But splitting the fanbase with the 'optional' 15' just serves to alienate and seems entirely unneeded
@@arguslycaon754 Completely agree. One major thing that got me into this sport was that I could be fairly competitive as a new person and the playing field was fairly level. The new rules just overly complicate the requirements and make an intentional separation of "classes" between new players and pros.
@@jbkhan1135 Almost every sport out there has a system of progression, you start as a beginner and work your way up to be a professional. Introducing a system of growth and escalating difficulty as you get better at this sport is important for its longevity. As a beginner, with these proposed rules there is a clear path and progression with these new rules. Think about it like this: Beginner - throwing purely at center bulls until you are hitting in the 48-50 average Intermediate - add the outer bulls until you are back to a 48-52 average Amateur - add in the killshots, progress until you are at about a 55 average Beginner-Pro - move to pro rules, scores will drop until you get the hang of 1 1/2 or 1 spin from 15' - throw purely at center bulls until you are back to a 48-50 average Intermediate-Pro - add in the outer bulls until you start to average 48-52 Pro - add in the killshots and shoot for the moon! Some people will jump progressions, some will stall, it will depend on the amount of time and practice an individual dedicates to improving their skills.
Commenting here because watl discussion group has been an echo chamber despite polls showing how unpopular the new changes are. First, why so many changes all at once? If there’s something wrong with the gameplay it’s easier to implement one change at a time. The new bullseyes being in the 3 ring rewards people just hitting five’s consistently. Also in an effort to be seen as “competitive” it seems and plays more like a children’s game. Also a bullseye is technically in the center. Archery and darts haven’t changed their targets in ages and they have a much longer history and more viewership. Also from the fact that an official watl video couldn’t paint the bullseyes correctly doesn’t bode well for venues. A lack of consistency isn’t great for an accuracy sport. I understand making the game harder but just because more people are bowling 300’s doesn’t mean they add more pins and longer lanes. Has anyone thrown a perfect season? The new and smaller killshots has been the one positive change. And I think it should’ve started here. Fifteen foot rule seems like it should be in a new discipline. More likely than not a small group of people practiced fifteen foot throws and now want to push it on the rest. Certain venues only have space for hatchet and now they can only throw as “amateurs” with no room for growth. One and a half rotation is also not safe for newer throwers I’ve personally seen people cut their clothing trying it. Also the most satisfying part of an accuracy sport is watching competitors get in the zone and hit repeated bullseye. I came from an archery and rifle background and people shoot perfect scores. Doesn’t mean they decided to make people switch bows and poundage’s to reach out further. TLDR: one change at a time starting with the killshots. Edit: before people say “have you tried them yet” yes I have.
There are a lot of assumptions here, and a lot of personal colouring and feelings, which is fine, but are not necessarily rooted in fact or a comprehensive understanding of the proposed changes. 1. "despite pools showing how unpopular..." - yes there have been polls, but they are ad-hoc and biased to people that are inclined to actually click polls, and also rooted in early misunderstandings of the gameplay. What is not seen, heard, or outright ignored are the equally enthusiastic posts and messages received in favour of the changes. 2. "Has anyone thrown a perfect season?" no (but DARN close - talk to Lucas Johnson about that) - but do we wait until that happens and then scramble? That is what has happened in the past. The game difficulty is trending DOWN - scores are increasing season over season, and projections are showing that in the next year/2, the scores needed for worlds will become unattainable for most throwers. There have been a lot of discussions already about this and the reasoning for change now, and also noting that it will be 2 years (Spring 2025) until the first championships using this ruleset, we are looking that far forward as to why it needs to change next year. 3. "More likely than not a small group of people practiced fifteen-foot throws and now want to push it on the rest" Take off the tinfoil hat. This narrative seems to justify some individuals' needs to understand "why" but is patently false. 4. "Certain venues only have space for hatchet and now they can only throw as “amateurs” with no room for growth" - presented as fact with no data. We are working actively to obtain REAL data on this - not supposition based on a currently vocal minority. The need for the future growth of the sport cannot be halted if only a small minority is not able to accommodate - if it is not a small minority, then adjustments to the proposal indeed need to be made. 5. Consistently we have heard over YEARS of complaints about "another change","always changing","sick of changes" - so rather than continuing to incrementally change the game, we have chosen the approach of "ripping off the bandaid" - bigger changes that will diminish the need to be "always changing the game" (which is also a false perception - the gameplay has not fundamentally changed since the move to small bulls/kills, only minor adjustments to gameplay have been implemented) I DO appreciate that you have played the game - I am surmising that you do not like the changes - but perhaps reaching out to see how they specifically affect you (understanding the skill progression built into the proposed changes) as they relate to your current skill level and future path in the sport would help - we are ALWAYS available either in the FB group, Messenger, or email to understand your struggles with the proposal. What many people are not understanding, or willfully refusing to understand, is that the move to 15' is NOT A REQUIRED one - it is a choice. Going for outer bulls is NOT REQUIRED and is also a choice. You can stay comfortable smacking center bulls if that is where you want to play - but to progress, practice and additional skills are needed - just like in any sport. You mentioned bowling - is the rec bowler using the same techniques as a pro? No. Dealing with things like differing oil patterns is just one element of bowling that separates recreational/beginner/intermediates from pros. Think of the 15' switch a pro-axe version of lane oil patterns in bowling.
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond. I believe Lucas Johnson’s record is 10 perfect games out of the 28 in a season. While that is incredible it’s hardly close to a perfect season. The polls im referring to were on watl discussion group, a closed group of watl throwers and players of various skill levels but hardly “outside looking in.” Venues with limited spaces has been quoted in watl discussion groups from venue owners in other countries for example Japan. People will always complain about incremental changes sure, but that’s how sports improve. Gradually with time to reflect. If you change multiple things for the worse which one do you roll back? All of them? Look at the 3 point Line changes in basketball. Incremental and gradual. And 15’ “not being required” is like bowling against someone with bumper lanes on. Sure the player with bumper lanes won but did they really? It feels condescending and anyone who wants to progress is forced to use new rules which you’re well aware of. If you wanted to implement a diversity of skill ranges why not include a handicap system like in golf or bowling? I really love axe throwing, archery, target shooting, and I’m not saying these things to be a grumpy resolute “change is bad” person I’m saying one thing at a time. Let’s start with smaller killshots or maybe a smaller bull. Maybe a separate discipline for 15’ throws allowing players to not have to swap axes/muscle memory mid match. I understand wanting to add “strategy” to the sport. Is it necessary? Is watl trying to create a marksmanship sport like archery in which case lets get smaller bullseyes, smaller axe heads, and narrower rings. Or is watl trying to be a specific score risk reward game like darts. In which case why not adopt a darts like target? And all people can do is “assume with our tinfoil hats” when the vast majority of throwers were left out of the rules creation. Sure watl had a small panel of people to create and introduce the rules. The general attitude has been this is how it’s going to be. Not that we’re open to change. Look at the watl discussion group. Discussion about negatives in the changes are about “throw better” and to just accept it. Also your bowling oil pattern analogy isn’t correct either. Pro bowlers use an oil pattern that is centered to allow hook. Meaning it gives an advantage to the pros allowing them to throw at their best. It’s not an arbitrarily more difficult setting just for the pros. It’s easier for bowling venues to just distribute oil evenly. Edit: Olympic shooting disciplines are also a set distance per event. 10 meter pistol, 25 meter rifle, etc. I’d be all for a standard hatchet, 15’ , 24’ discipline. Another thing about the “facts.” Do you or watl have facts about popularity/ accessibility/injury etc? Why not share them? Or create polls available on the watl website. You can’t debase an argument based on lack of facts and not present facts and methodology. Please if you have them present them.
The 1.5 rotations is ridiculous. Who wants to bet new WATL axes come out with larger handles specifically for 15' throws? They'll be equipped with the same shitty metal heads of course. IATF is going to gain popularity bc of the new rules.
Risk-reward. You choose the amount of risk you want to absorb, and take the rewards for the hits along with the hurt from misses. Practice, practice and practice - those outer bulls are no harder to hit than a center bull. If you are not confident enough in them - you don't have to go for them either :)
The outer bulls are always an option, whether in pro or competitive formats. I could have chosen to just throw middle - after I hit a middle bull every other middle bull hit would be 5 - but in this scenario, I am attempting to get my maximum score, so once that middle bull was closed, I chose to go to outers. There is a strategic decision that can be applied here - based on your target score and your bull % - but in this specific case I wanted to show that I was attempting to maximize my score - my skill was just not up to the task ;)
@@bradfordgoodwillie9787 Just the bulls. The bulls reset after the lane switch. Kills work almost the same - they do close when hit - but the horizontal line closes. If I hit a top kill (either one) then the entire top is closed. I can then go for either of the bottom kills. In a 3 kill scenario (getting an extra kill from a drop), if you hit top, then bottom, you open up either to throw at for the third kill attempt. Kills do NOT reset on the lane switch
So why are we gonna throw from 15? Is it just to make it more difficult? Is it just cause? Is it to show the skill of the top throwers? What's the reasoning behind the distance change?
New boards do look fun. still not for the 15 foot rule. Everyone I have talk to seems like no one will be trying for pro status anymore and has kind of made then turn away from the game. We all ready seen one league member quit hatchet and just going to focus on big axe. what he played in many tournaments last year. Even my self feels like the being a 52+ avg thrower not sure if play in leagues anymore after this year if the new rules go into effect. Both venues I play at can't really do 15 foot safely especially for big leagues. Thanks for the video
Glad a video example was finally released.
I'm so turned off. Seems like carnival games and 15 foot...why? Why ?
It is purely a choice for each individual thrower. If you do not want to throw from 15' - you have the ability to remain in the competitive format. There will still be a few limited ways for non-pro's to earn their way to Worlds using this format BUT there will be more options/opportunities throwing with the pro version of the game (from 15')
If you don't care about that - stick at 12' and enjoy the game your way!
@@mikemorton3306 if you can still go to worlds at 12' only, why have the 15' at all?
@@arguslycaon754 It is as of yet undetermined, but the goal at Worlds is to have 2 divisions. In the case of a single division tho, it would absolutely be under the pro set of rules. So if someone were to qualify for worlds on the 12' rules, and there was only a single division of competition, they would be doing themselves a disservice in not practicing at 15'. Likely they would get quickly knocked out of the competition. I can see some players, however, making a choice to try and qualify under the non-pro rules, and practicing their hearts out to compete under the pro ruleset at the World Championships.
@@mikemorton3306 lame
Im fine with the extra bullseyes and kills. Kinda like it even. Gotta go back on that 15' throw though. I just dont see the need and telling everyone to just buy another axe for the longer throw is not a good look
Throwing from 15' is an option, not required. If you do not want to compete at the pro level, you never have to move back. When you are ready to compete at that level, then you can choose to throw "pro", only at that point are you required to go back to 15'
@@mikemorton3306 One of the biggest allures to this sport is throwing the same game the pros do. Practicing the same ways the pros do. Many, myself included, love that I can go to a tourney and throw against a pro. I dont think agree that seperating the game and telling people to do the 15' throw when we can get on their level is good for the sport.
I want to compete against pros even if I often lose. I dont like that the throw I have been practicing for thousands of hours and the several expensive axes I own that are tailored to that specific throw are useless for half a game if I want to play at that level.
I get making the game more difficult. We see a ton of 64's nowadays. We gotta have some excitement added back in. Like I said, I love the idea of multiple bullseyes, more killshots. Cool. But splitting the fanbase with the 'optional' 15' just serves to alienate and seems entirely unneeded
@@arguslycaon754 Completely agree. One major thing that got me into this sport was that I could be fairly competitive as a new person and the playing field was fairly level. The new rules just overly complicate the requirements and make an intentional separation of "classes" between new players and pros.
@@jbkhan1135 Almost every sport out there has a system of progression, you start as a beginner and work your way up to be a professional. Introducing a system of growth and escalating difficulty as you get better at this sport is important for its longevity. As a beginner, with these proposed rules there is a clear path and progression with these new rules.
Think about it like this:
Beginner - throwing purely at center bulls until you are hitting in the 48-50 average
Intermediate - add the outer bulls until you are back to a 48-52 average
Amateur - add in the killshots, progress until you are at about a 55 average
Beginner-Pro - move to pro rules, scores will drop until you get the hang of 1 1/2 or 1 spin from 15' - throw purely at center bulls until you are back to a 48-50 average
Intermediate-Pro - add in the outer bulls until you start to average 48-52
Pro - add in the killshots and shoot for the moon!
Some people will jump progressions, some will stall, it will depend on the amount of time and practice an individual dedicates to improving their skills.
Commenting here because watl discussion group has been an echo chamber despite polls showing how unpopular the new changes are.
First, why so many changes all at once? If there’s something wrong with the gameplay it’s easier to implement one change at a time.
The new bullseyes being in the 3 ring rewards people just hitting five’s consistently. Also in an effort to be seen as “competitive” it seems and plays more like a children’s game. Also a bullseye is technically in the center. Archery and darts haven’t changed their targets in ages and they have a much longer history and more viewership. Also from the fact that an official watl video couldn’t paint the bullseyes correctly doesn’t bode well for venues. A lack of consistency isn’t great for an accuracy sport.
I understand making the game harder but just because more people are bowling 300’s doesn’t mean they add more pins and longer lanes. Has anyone thrown a perfect season?
The new and smaller killshots has been the one positive change. And I think it should’ve started here.
Fifteen foot rule seems like it should be in a new discipline. More likely than not a small group of people practiced fifteen foot throws and now want to push it on the rest. Certain venues only have space for hatchet and now they can only throw as “amateurs” with no room for growth. One and a half rotation is also not safe for newer throwers I’ve personally seen people cut their clothing trying it. Also the most satisfying part of an accuracy sport is watching competitors get in the zone and hit repeated bullseye.
I came from an archery and rifle background and people shoot perfect scores. Doesn’t mean they decided to make people switch bows and poundage’s to reach out further.
TLDR: one change at a time starting with the killshots.
Edit: before people say “have you tried them yet” yes I have.
There are a lot of assumptions here, and a lot of personal colouring and feelings, which is fine, but are not necessarily rooted in fact or a comprehensive understanding of the proposed changes.
1. "despite pools showing how unpopular..." - yes there have been polls, but they are ad-hoc and biased to people that are inclined to actually click polls, and also rooted in early misunderstandings of the gameplay. What is not seen, heard, or outright ignored are the equally enthusiastic posts and messages received in favour of the changes.
2. "Has anyone thrown a perfect season?" no (but DARN close - talk to Lucas Johnson about that) - but do we wait until that happens and then scramble? That is what has happened in the past. The game difficulty is trending DOWN - scores are increasing season over season, and projections are showing that in the next year/2, the scores needed for worlds will become unattainable for most throwers. There have been a lot of discussions already about this and the reasoning for change now, and also noting that it will be 2 years (Spring 2025) until the first championships using this ruleset, we are looking that far forward as to why it needs to change next year.
3. "More likely than not a small group of people practiced fifteen-foot throws and now want to push it on the rest" Take off the tinfoil hat. This narrative seems to justify some individuals' needs to understand "why" but is patently false.
4. "Certain venues only have space for hatchet and now they can only throw as “amateurs” with no room for growth" - presented as fact with no data. We are working actively to obtain REAL data on this - not supposition based on a currently vocal minority. The need for the future growth of the sport cannot be halted if only a small minority is not able to accommodate - if it is not a small minority, then adjustments to the proposal indeed need to be made.
5. Consistently we have heard over YEARS of complaints about "another change","always changing","sick of changes" - so rather than continuing to incrementally change the game, we have chosen the approach of "ripping off the bandaid" - bigger changes that will diminish the need to be "always changing the game" (which is also a false perception - the gameplay has not fundamentally changed since the move to small bulls/kills, only minor adjustments to gameplay have been implemented)
I DO appreciate that you have played the game - I am surmising that you do not like the changes - but perhaps reaching out to see how they specifically affect you (understanding the skill progression built into the proposed changes) as they relate to your current skill level and future path in the sport would help - we are ALWAYS available either in the FB group, Messenger, or email to understand your struggles with the proposal.
What many people are not understanding, or willfully refusing to understand, is that the move to 15' is NOT A REQUIRED one - it is a choice. Going for outer bulls is NOT REQUIRED and is also a choice. You can stay comfortable smacking center bulls if that is where you want to play - but to progress, practice and additional skills are needed - just like in any sport. You mentioned bowling - is the rec bowler using the same techniques as a pro? No. Dealing with things like differing oil patterns is just one element of bowling that separates recreational/beginner/intermediates from pros. Think of the 15' switch a pro-axe version of lane oil patterns in bowling.
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond. I believe Lucas Johnson’s record is 10 perfect games out of the 28 in a season. While that is incredible it’s hardly close to a perfect season.
The polls im referring to were on watl discussion group, a closed group of watl throwers and players of various skill levels but hardly “outside looking in.”
Venues with limited spaces has been quoted in watl discussion groups from venue owners in other countries for example Japan.
People will always complain about incremental changes sure, but that’s how sports improve. Gradually with time to reflect. If you change multiple things for the worse which one do you roll back? All of them? Look at the 3 point Line changes in basketball. Incremental and gradual.
And 15’ “not being required” is like bowling against someone with bumper lanes on. Sure the player with bumper lanes won but did they really? It feels condescending and anyone who wants to progress is forced to use new rules which you’re well aware of.
If you wanted to implement a diversity of skill ranges why not include a handicap system like in golf or bowling?
I really love axe throwing, archery, target shooting, and I’m not saying these things to be a grumpy resolute “change is bad” person I’m saying one thing at a time. Let’s start with smaller killshots or maybe a smaller bull. Maybe a separate discipline for 15’ throws allowing players to not have to swap axes/muscle memory mid match.
I understand wanting to add “strategy” to the sport. Is it necessary? Is watl trying to create a marksmanship sport like archery in which case lets get smaller bullseyes, smaller axe heads, and narrower rings. Or is watl trying to be a specific score risk reward game like darts. In which case why not adopt a darts like target?
And all people can do is “assume with our tinfoil hats” when the vast majority of throwers were left out of the rules creation. Sure watl had a small panel of people to create and introduce the rules. The general attitude has been this is how it’s going to be. Not that we’re open to change. Look at the watl discussion group. Discussion about negatives in the changes are about “throw better” and to just accept it.
Also your bowling oil pattern analogy isn’t correct either. Pro bowlers use an oil pattern that is centered to allow hook. Meaning it gives an advantage to the pros allowing them to throw at their best. It’s not an arbitrarily more difficult setting just for the pros. It’s easier for bowling venues to just distribute oil evenly.
Edit: Olympic shooting disciplines are also a set distance per event. 10 meter pistol, 25 meter rifle, etc. I’d be all for a standard hatchet, 15’ , 24’ discipline.
Another thing about the “facts.” Do you or watl have facts about popularity/ accessibility/injury etc? Why not share them? Or create polls available on the watl website. You can’t debase an argument based on lack of facts and not present facts and methodology. Please if you have them present them.
The 1.5 rotations is ridiculous. Who wants to bet new WATL axes come out with larger handles specifically for 15' throws? They'll be equipped with the same shitty metal heads of course. IATF is going to gain popularity bc of the new rules.
Missing a bull already is rough enough but now a miss could be a 3 instead of a 5, that's gonna hurt some averages
Risk-reward.
You choose the amount of risk you want to absorb, and take the rewards for the hits along with the hurt from misses. Practice, practice and practice - those outer bulls are no harder to hit than a center bull. If you are not confident enough in them - you don't have to go for them either :)
@@mikemorton3306 I'd love to see a follow up video on how to use the current stencil to mark boards this way
Are they going to allow the rotation and a half throw from the 15' line? I know it's being discussed.
Yes
I'm confused. Why is he throwing at every bull from 12 feet in the second game? I thought standard rules would be middle bull only
The outer bulls are always an option, whether in pro or competitive formats. I could have chosen to just throw middle - after I hit a middle bull every other middle bull hit would be 5 - but in this scenario, I am attempting to get my maximum score, so once that middle bull was closed, I chose to go to outers. There is a strategic decision that can be applied here - based on your target score and your bull % - but in this specific case I wanted to show that I was attempting to maximize my score - my skill was just not up to the task ;)
@@bradfordgoodwillie9787 Just the bulls. The bulls reset after the lane switch. Kills work almost the same - they do close when hit - but the horizontal line closes. If I hit a top kill (either one) then the entire top is closed. I can then go for either of the bottom kills.
In a 3 kill scenario (getting an extra kill from a drop), if you hit top, then bottom, you open up either to throw at for the third kill attempt. Kills do NOT reset on the lane switch
15 ft rule is the dumbest thing I think I've ever seen implemented into axe throwing
More confusion
What is confused and how can I help clarify for you?