Why Jazz musicians hate 'WHIPLASH'
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- Опубліковано 15 тра 2024
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Andy is a drummer, producer and educator. He has toured the world with rock legend Robert Plant and played on classic prog albums by Frost and IQ.
As a drum clinician he has played with Terry Bozzio, Kenny Aronoff, Thomas Lang, Marco Minneman and Mike Portnoy.
He also teaches drums privately and at Kidderminster College
The recent Rick Beato Lanois interview contained this gem from Lanois: “Talent is one thing. Getting up in the morning, putting your boots on and doing something about it is another.”
"Amateurs sit and wait for inspiration, the rest of us get up and go to work"
~Stephen King.
That's great quote. Every "natural talent" in the world has hours and hours of practice behind them.
@@irishthump73 Sure, that's part one, and then part two is, you can pratice all you want, but if you don't go out and put yourself in situations where your natural talent and self-earned preparedness can be appreciated, well, nobody will ever care.
Playing jazz requires relaxation. Working yourself up into a rage ain’t gonna help you swing!
I don't think that's the only thing musicians don't like the movie . I think what the move attempts to claim is the student only improved because of these harsh methods and this was the only way he would have progressed and this justifies the teacher's methods . In real life there would not have been a good outcome to this . Cruelty ,abusiveness and bulling are not the way to get the best out of someone. Any student with any self respect would have quit as soon as this stuff started.
That's what I did In highschool after getting into the top combo and honor jazz. No reason to stay anymore. Our teacher was the highschool version of Fletcher, doing just enough to barely not get fired
I would not go without a zinger though.
The movie absolutely does not try to justify Fletcher's methods. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't even have a happy ending, as even the protagonist's father realizes that his son has been completely consumed by his obsession and unhealthy need for Fletcher's approval.
"Cruelty, abusiveness and bulling" ... sounds like academia!!!
I love when Andy goes all full on philosophical stream of consciousness at the end of his videos, makes me laugh and think...quickly becoming my favorite channel.
Better than anything on telly that's for sure
@@luciferpantykrist7570 ain’t that the truth.
"The Red Shoes " is THE movie regarding sacrifices for one's art and the blurring of reality.
For me "Whiplash" feels like a sports movie with musicians.
Andy is MOSTLY right about talent being the drive to do something. My friend's uncle was a child prodigy pianist, and he says his real gift was the obsession with playing.
That said; he still was able to learn things and perform with much more ability the an average musician who works just as hard.
The sports movie analogy seems very apt. I hadn’t thought of it that way before.
Great video as always Andy!!
Another superb video. Andy keep up the good work cheers!
Just so good Andy!!!
Amazing conversation! Thank you, Andy.
The current run of talks are superb. Thank you.
It isn't a Jazz movie but "Walk Hard" is just great for its taking apart Music Bios. Robert Gordon the fantastic Rockabilly singer covered the song "Walk Hard" without knowing it was from a movie. Great video Andy. Once I heard about the movie and the abuse I said no thanks.
Great content as always, you and Professor Skye are two of the most underrated music channels
'Whiplash' could've used another vehicle to tell the story, like football, dance, or maths, and no doubt practitioners in those fields would get the hump. The phrase "That would never happen" is always the giveaway. Imagine a newspaper hack watching a film where this hack, Clark Kent, throws on a cape and flies (with his underpants on the outside): "That would never happen!" Completely misses the point. David Foster Wallace's book 'Infinite Jest' is a deep dive into 'Whiplash' territory, the vehicles being tennis and drug and alcohol rehab. But, yeah, the Red Shoes is bang on, Andy. Brilliant VT as always. Cheers, Ian
My beef with Whiplash was that I didn't buy the motivations of the music professor. You watch the first part of the movie watching him try to wring perfection out of his students. In the second part of the movie, he risks the quality of the whole band's performance to strike out at a student. I didn't believe it.
I didn't buy it either. And the deeper parts, if there were any, were lost on me because I couldn't get past the teacher, who was so far off the reality scale that no school would ever hire this guy and if they did his nose would surely meet up with someone's fist.
I think the main motivation of the music professor in Whiplash (and bullies in general) is to feel superior over others. He’s a tyrant and a sadist. He justifies his behavior by saying he demands perfection.
ONYA. Andy. Good stuff mate.!px
Hey Andy, continue to do what you do, you are part of the solution, the world needs more people like you. You do your videos like a jazz solo....nice.
Superb content/ all about why we love unconditionally cheers for posting such great content cheers
Love your remarks on Robert Fripp (one of my heroes) which are spot on :)
If I ever would have had a teacher like the one in whiplash I would have left immediately and told him to f*** off !! - Thankfully all my music teachers have been reasonable people who were actually sane.
When he chucked that Zilgian crash at him was very cymbalic, I felt
Right on dude love your ideas haha
I'm a student of your philosophy. Thank you for the deep thoughts and obvious experience.
Great video man! Really loved the Simon C references. By the way, when I made my "Red Shoes" album in 1982 I didn't even know about the story you told today. Your observations really hit home with me and I'll be sharing this with my jazzer friends.
Escalator Over the Hill! Awesome masterpiece!
People in the harsh noise underground scene who play to 15 people are as bound by social rules as Justin Bieber is. Don't pretend this isn't true.
Excellent talk.
Your analysis of Jazz-being analogous to liberal democracy and leaving room for individual expression within a set of guardrails, contrasted with the more "authoritarian" rules of classical-is among the best I've ever heard.
The Red Shoes is the name of the story, written by Hans Christian Anderson. I got a very Red Shoes vibe from Whiplash though I also got a very "if you don't bleed for your shite you ain't shit" vibe.
Great points.
Another great, thought provoking video....bordering on "stand up"...at times..or "sit down" in your case....😁
The jazz part of whiplash feels mostly like a skin. Which is still a cool way to include it, but I would like to see a story that’s truly about music making and what it does for life
Is it a 5/4 skin?
The movie is called “the Drummer” I think. Recommended by Peter Erskine from comments in another Whiplash breakdown video. Peter believed this 20 minute, low-budget film did what Whiplash couldn’t by showing exactly what you’re asking for. Whiplash focused on the worst aspects of a budding musician, not the beauty of making music. Hollywood knows people will pay to see a train wreck. I watched The Drummer and that… that is why people sacrifice, have passion and believe in the human connection of music.
Fabulous Baker Boys is a pretty accurate depiction of being a working musician.
I enjoyed keep on keepin on (Clarke Terry) but not a fiction/drama
I am a retired photographer. When I retired I decided to sell fine photographs on the side. Soon enough I decided that I didn't want to bargain with customers over the price so I stopped making photographs for sale. After that I noticed that I didn't care about which images would appeal to others or was], otherwise, marketable. I began making photographs that I wanted to make. It was a revelation.
I actually really like the movie - and was surprised when alot of players I know really didn't like it. I totally understand everything you've said and their reasoning, but as a former boxer and boxing photographer for the press, I can tell you Rocky is as unrealistic as it gets - all of that training and especially the fight scenes!!! like Whiplash alot of the Rocky movies are based on real life events, and most boxers I know LOVE the Rocky movies despite none of it "ringing true". That said, some are boxers BECAUSE of seeing one of the movies, and all are very aspirational in a sense if one was a boxer. Whereas alot of the Whiplash "message" is that "suffering for the art" rather than the aspirational "isnt music just sheer joyousness" - ie its allowed to be fake, but we want the correct kind of fake to enjoy it! For me, Im just happy to see a film with a decent budget made about a drummer (in jazz of all things!) - and I loved the soundtrack and the performances throughout. Im a bit simpler in that regard!
Every "love" of music is not the same, as I believe I observe personally and objectively. And it's not really about a love of music. it's about a love for something deeper that finds it's expression in the relationship one has with the particular form of communication called "music". Something is communicated through music that an individual is already pre-positioned to receive and process in a way that stimulates them in the varying degrees that distinguish a casual listener from a lover/devotee/connoisseur or musician.
Talent is propensity combined with ability. There is "something about you" that is prepared to receive and relate before you ever hear a note or pick up an instrument. And it's not just about music. Many creative people express themselves through multiple mediums. It's all about which mediums you're exposed too, what vehicle you have access to and whether or not it's encouraged by your environment. I believe you're born with a propensity which experience focuses and which eventually lands on whatever you're exposed to which gives a voice to it. Of course you have to develop it but, its the sense that the expression personally belongs to you that motivates you to pursue its development. These things happen without our conscious knowledge a great deal of the time.
Some of the most abusive and worst disciplinarians I have encountered in my life have been jazz orchestra conductors.
In primary school, the conductor would THROW chalk board dusters (anything actually) at the drummer. He had no problem kicking people out of his band.
At university, the conductor was so verbally abusive, everyone was scared of that guy. I don't recall a single word of encouragement from that guy.
Towards the end of my stay at the university, some lecturers decided to tell me I cannot play jazz. This happened in multiple meetings meaning they spoke about it and decided this was how they'd approach my career. Not a word about how I could improve, no offers of guidance or private sessions.
One might say, "oh that was just your experience", 1st I was not the only person in those orchestras. 2ndly, I'm just a guy in South Africa. How can a Hollywood film track so closely to my personal journey if others haven't had the same experience?
There are stories of Miles Davis being an absolute horror as a bandleader. The are numerous stories of jazz musicians getting laughed off the stage.
Jazz musicians are incredibly protective of the genre to the point of being absolute arseholes; this is fact! I know it is it.
The behaviours of jazz educators, band leaders etc has NOTHING to do with the structure of the music.
Andy - I think everyone knows that you don't plan these videos! 😀 Seriously, I really enjoy the spontaneity of your talks and your enthusiasm for music. In the case of Whiplash, it seemed t o be largely a vehicle for JK Simmons who is a great character actor. Even those of us who are only listeners of music appreciated that some of the elements of it might be exaggerated. Thanks again for these videos. Always enjoy watching them.
Paraphrasing Gil Scott-Heron, 'Enjoy yourself while you're here, because if you aren't then no one else will enjoy you being here either.'
I laughed all the way through the film... I took it as a dark comedy. It was so ridiculous, I just can't imagine anyone taking it seriously. I really don't imagine anyone could... especially jazz musicians. That being said, within that context of "Dark Comedy" I thought it was absolutely brilliant. Loved the film..
You raise some interesting points about amateur musicians
Always hidden parodies and symbolic messages in movies as far back as us oldies can remember some Darker than others, another great watch Andy
“We have to ride the wave of the eternal now.”
Beautiful
I can't hate the movie as is sparked an interest in big band music that might have been the reason i joined a big band and started studying jazz guitar. The movie is also just overall fantastically shot, acted and has some important things to say. The jazz aspect does feel like a skin, and the director himself said that he picked drums because it felt the most like traditional sport, and could therefore illustrate physical wear Neimann experiences the best to the audience.
Also maybe it's a regional thing, but all my musician friends and bandmates love the movie
I plan on making a stream-of-consciousness video about this some day, but this is as good a place as any to put a rough-draft response to the movie and address your point of view.
I think first of all that a few things need to be understood. First, the writer based his experiences on what he went through in High School, not college, which is why it doesn't make sense for reasons Adam already explained. This sort of thing doesn't go on in colleges. It does, however, happen in high schools, where you have a requirement for people in band to spend half the year in marching band performing "field shows," which is like ballet, but performed in front of people that hate you every friday to create a dichotomy between band nerds playing old unpopular music and the football team and cheerleaders running around in tight fitting clothing in front of everyone.
Part of field shows are the drum core, which is more associated with high level performace attitudes and football, so in addition to the 'failed in life and have to teach high school' people there you also have the 'hero coach' mentality creep in, and you end up with a situation where an old, impotent failure attempts to regain youthful success by exploiting the bodies and minds of young, naive men, encouraging them to sacrifice themselves in order to achieve his own goal in the name of 'glory.'
In other words it's an allegory for fascism. I felt like you started to approach this point when you talked about jazz representing liberal western democracies, and wish you'd made the full connection. Jazz, and musicianship in general, is about self-promotion, building your abilities and making yourself stronger. A great mentor in jazz is someone that facilitates that. In Whiplash he does the opposite, he tries to bend the main character to his own vision of perfection. He almost represents the worst aspects of jazz, in a way as he destroys this young musician's chances of becoming a great musician, instead of just a monkey drummer playing at some reception that likely never takes him everywhere. The writer even said when asked about the kid's fate that he imagines that he kills himself. The 'win' is purely in the moment of glory and apparent triumph of finally doing what the old man wants, while getting injured, losing his girlfriend and emotionally isolating himself from everyone but the conductor, including the audience. This only works in a high school football mentality, where for the coach there is no outside world beyond graduation, the coach who's job is to use the kids in his team up as much as possible to accomplish the aim of winning, that facilitates this constant carnage of athletes suffering life-long injuries for high school sports teams, for someone else's vanity.
There is also the deeper symbolism going on here about an old impotent man seducing, grooming and ultimately possessing a young man so that he can accomplish his own desires while destroying the man in the process. The kid in this movie becomes his bitch. I didn't really understand the need for him to leave his girlfriend until I realized this point, and the symbolism of him 'coming through' at the end 'dripping blood' can't be ignored. I think there's an instinctual distaste for this movie from jazz musicians partly because of the atmosphere of sexual harrassment that many of them face, of this kind. It really is about self-determination vs slavery, being yourself vs being used for someone else, and the movie seems to prefer the latter.
And why is that really? Because it's a sports movie, and again, this is the norm in sports, this repressed homosexuality manifesting in pseudo-sexual relationships with replacement fathers, the destruction of the self in order to be 'reborn' in the image of someone else, the transformation from the freedom and dominance of masculinity to the obedient submissiveness of femininity, in order to fulfill the fading potency of the aging old man who seeks immortality and fears both death and youth at the same time, and can only seemingly overcome this by destroying that youth in a moment of time where time itself stands still and is vanquished.
And that's not what jazz is about.
I discovered Adam Neely through his Whiplash video too.
This is a fascinating, insightful and thought-provoking video, dudemeister, and I really like it, even the crazy ending - ESPECIALLY the crazy ending!! Life happening or wot...?!
Round Midnight's a wonderful film...
☝️😎
Excellent.
Thank you so much for your acknowledgment of the talent of Ralph Humphrey. I saw him with Don Ellis in the 70's. He was truly an unsung hero.
Have you seen my interview with him?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer No, I haven't. I will definitely check it out.
I actually did have a bass drum smashed over my head once one Tuesday Jazz Night at the Butcher's Arms Skegness back in 1978 after a lacklustre second chorus trumpet solo on Mood Indigo. Funny, I remember thinking it was tuned to D as it came down so maybe I have perfect pitch. I did feel a bit bad at the time admittedly but things were different back then. You couldn't get away with that now cus of Health and Safety or whatever. Having said that it might have done me some good as it really sharpened up my practice schedule and I was in better shape later. Call it Stockholm Syndrome but if I met that guy now I'd probably shake his hand. :)
Bien Andy!
If the Little Match Girl doesn't make you cry you have no soul.
The movie ended up just being about the culture of total work, having an interchangeable lens to see through that could’ve switched between academic jazz, investment banking, law school, or any other field of corporate competitiveness.
Round Midnight starring Dexter Gordon was a great jazz film! Agreed, also saw Whiplash and wasn’t into it.
Had my own WHIPLASH several yr's ago at an Aebersold Jazz Camp -witnessing one of "mentors" RIP INTO couple young high schoolers!! (ON HIS PHONE all during their performance!)
And if not cruelty, SNOBBERY & CONDESCENSION were pervasive! Prime example was during one of evening showcases by ""mentors", audience reprimanded & instructed HOW TO PROPERLY APPLAUD!! Sheesh...
Yeah, I don't get why there's such a denial that this behavior exists in jazz ed. Not to the point of throwing chairs at people (I hope), but your experience is not unique at all.
@@jaredcook3757 Hi Jared - thanks for affirmation of viewpoint!
Life-long musician here, & as retirement gift to myself, what SHOULD have been very ENJOYABLE experience was disappointment!
What i learned is to recognize the offenders - and not let them sully my LOVE of music!
I play Rock music and that movie always put my teeth on edge.
It's not really about jazz, or even music. It's a psychological study of two characters. I've seen it five times, and I got something extra from it each time. I love it.
Yes, Mark Kermode likens it to a war film.
Haven't seen it, but you might be reading something into it that isn't there. People tend to do that.
I haven't seen it, but I saw Black Swan which I loved even though I understood later that it is not (anymore) an accurate depiction of the world of ballet. The thing is it's fiction, and a creator always has the liberty to say 'what if' and create an interesting story on the basis of that. You can't hit through a snaredrum, but it is easily imaginable that you could. The mistake would be to think this movie says something about the jazz world, but maybe it does say something valuable about 'the human condition'..
Love the video.....what happened aat the end? It just ended suddenly. was that intended? and how come your phone has a standard ringtone? As a prog/jazz musician you really should have a much cooler ringtone....(LOL). Love the video Andy. no worries. Love the lo-fi no-editing style. Here and on your Patreon. And there's something about you not planning the video which makes this almost as a conversation. Riding the wave man...riding the wave....shooting the breeze...and btw I agree that the problem with Whiplash is that it makes Jazz musicians hardasses as if their playing Paganini or a Rachmaninov concerto. It's as if the screenplay was written on a classic violinist or a pianist and they decided to make it more hip by switching to a jazz drummer in NY.
Thinking about it, there's a double edged sword with the jazz ethos as you describe.
When the individual musician is not hog tied to a composer's comprehensive map, indeed the freedom and democracy of expression, exploring, digging, and finding a way within the context of rules and an ensemble. To shine through and carve that space in the picture.
But that individual musician has to bring to the outside what's inside, if there's to be authenticity in the performance.
That actually can be a problem if the individual is simply uninteresting, shallow, or has very little life experience or sense of shared humanity outside of the commitment to the art.
There's a very obscure film that sort of gets at what I'm trying to say. If you can get your hands on it, the film is worth watching because it was experimental at the time, its from 1961 and its called The Connection. I believe half the actors in the single-setting film were working jazz musicians. They were simply jamming in an apartment while everyone there were waiting for a long expected heroin dealer to show up.
It hit me while watching that film that the relative shallowness of the musicians' lives, who were not really living life they were just stringing along notes until the next opportunity to address their low dopamine condition, were massively limiting factors on where the music could go. As in, to transport, to elevate, to inspire.
So in that sense jazz can be both the most amazing musical experience or the most miserly musical experience, even if in both cases the mastery of the craft is there.
people learn when something is fun, off course there is hard work. Like //But to become a good squash player you need to be able to hit perfect tight length balls and that takes hours of practise and fantastic technique, but it can be fun by playing with mates. I have just started doing my grade 3 classical guitar in my early fitties and I do some scale wok and spider walking but the hardest bit was learning a grade 7 piece of music but now I can play it; I have also been asked to compose a piece of music. these two things combined are very enlightening, hard work but fun and immensely satisfying. It's also about being pushed out of your envelope but understanding that you/me are probably not going to the prodigy, but you can be good and it can be very rewarding. Would I like to be a genius= yes, will I be that Genius= probably not. Can I enjoy playing squash and learning guitar =100% yes. I love them both. and now I feel guilty about wasting my time commenting on your great video. Sorry.
I agree with you on this!
I think the director of Whiplash was trying to represent a high school "jazz band" context. The director himself mentioned it was based on his own experience in high school jazz band. From my being around people who were in band/marching band, this is pretty accurate. The scene is pretty competitive, and there's a lot of drama revolving around placement and status, getting the piece right and rehearsed, all in all a very classical approach to the music. And it makes sense to an extent it's less of a democracy, it's a big band context, not a bebop context, and you're wrangling disorderly high schoolers.
Of course the problem is that the HS context doesn't transpose into university level jazz in the least, and it transposes into gigging jazz even less! If this were a movie about people competing to be in drumcorps like Blue Devils etc, it would make more sense. But people go to college for jazz for the freedom of the music. And I think that's where the disconnect of the film originates -- it comes from an understanding of the music in a totally different context from where its actual setting is.
I never thought of It as being about jazz or music, it's really about abuse and a culture that allow It to happen.
I feel like It could have been More accurate to change the setting for a movie set, a media in Which this sort of behavior Is highly encouraged.
Also, the red shoes Is a fucking great movie, i need to get myself a copy with a decente máster.
Its a horror movie that takes place in a music school! 😮
@@VinylRundown right! It's about control
23 minutes in he finally gets to the freakin point!! If you like rambling talk, give this a listen. Never use 78 words when one will do.
Thank you for that. I try do make wider cultural observations rather than just answer the questions. But those of you who don't like long rambling videos the answer 'because it's not realistic'
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Understood. I guess my attention span has shortened these days. It is of course Hollywood and as you know, things are embellished at times. One of the things I did like about the movie was that they didn’t slap a happy ending on it. He didn’t get the girl at the end of the movie. So many times nowadays, writers find it necessary to leave people feeling good when they finish the movie. This one didn’t feel the need to do that, the girl had moved on, and he lost out. That’s life sometimes.
There's a great 10 episode Japanese Anime titled 'Kids on the Slope' which is about two Japanese kids in the 60s who play jazz. Ones a more experienced self taught jazz drummer, and the other is a classical pianist who is basically told to unlearn the idea of perfection and to loosen up in order to play jazz. The two songs they perform are 'My Favorite Things' And 'Moanin'. Two of the best parts is that there's a lot of performances where it's just the two of them, Piano and Drums, performing. And not to spoil things but I doubt you'd watch it, they're not even aspiring professional musicians nor do they even become that at the end of the story. It was quite simply a story about the love of the music and still the characters took the music very seriously.
the drum teacher in whiplash reminds me of my old drama teacher.i learned so much from him,great teacher,but he could be really snappy sometimes,gay,alchoholic and a bit cantankerous,if he thought people werent pulling their weight,he had no qualms about letting them know,one day,one of the girls was 5 mins late for class.he said to her,so you want to be a actress,i wouldnt even let you sweep the fucking stage,of course she broke down in tears,but ultimately it was his teachings that got her into drama school.he wasnt quite as bad as the whiplash guy,yes john could be brutal,but he wasnt allways like that,and was responsible for getting many of his students into theatre schools,drama schools
I feel there is a divide that is two sides of the coin, yin and yang between entertainment and art.
Entertainment is to release worries and becoming part of a group gives the illusion of personal power by identifying with a hero, angst or not. The earthbound idol take on the negativity freeing the worshipper.
But there is no true freedom without responsibility. And responsibility brings angst and so must seek balance and Soul. The connection that binds us as humans over clans and tribes seeks universals, not the exalted parochial of entertainers.
subscribed! where do you live Andy? (if you don't mind my asking)
"Round Midnight" - Dexter Gordon - great jazz film - Dexter actually lived in Europa, and some of the years in "my" country Denmark :D
I didn't know anyone lived on one of Jupiter's moons. 😏
I am a Jazz musician, I hate Whiplash, you explained it right, well done.
I am a whip maker who hates jazz AND movies
@@luciferpantykrist7570 I will not take away your believe that you are funny.
I’d have head butted the “teacher”. The film confuses an army drill sergeant preparing recruits to not flinch in the face of bullets with teaching musical sensitivity. However….. It’s still funny to do the stupid fist twist gesture in rehearsals when somebody sets off on the wrong tempo….. and even funnier to do it when they play the right tempo 😂
"We've all said it: Simon Cowell is the big fairy". That line causes whiplash
The Simon C comments Andy made were so spot on and really funny.
I’d suggest a subset of the Red Shoes narrative that might be its own genre, which is the obsession/insanity narrative, exemplified best IMO by Altman’s Vincent & Theo. There is no choice in this scenario, the artist is driven to create regardless of the obvious consequences - poverty, social exclusion, loneliness etc.
everyone wants to be Karate Kid but far fewer can endure the Wax On, Wax Off bit
Will watch it on repeat 😎
The previews were enough for me. Never watched it.
Andy's best video.
I thought that movie was a ridiculous representation of jazz education more than jazz really. A jazz program in a college/university has a hard enough time these days to convince parents to spend tuition money with such a poor chance of having a real income once graduated.
It was a good horror movie character. I don’t believe a real teacher like that would last long in any music program that would like to hold onto or attract new students.
In the sequel he has a drum-off with an evil Aryan-looking Russian super-drummer called Yuri Draggin
@@luciferpantykrist7570 Well that at least makes it fully unbelievable and totally ridiculous. Like no confusing it with reality whatsoever
Jazz is not a music or an artform, Jazz uses sound (music) to communicate....Jazz is way more than music...it is a consciousness. Jazz is a way of life.
Oh no, I didn't know Ralph Humprey passed away! Great drummer
Good choice to shave the mustache. Video great as usual.
I don’t hate it. As a cautionary tale, I consider it a great illustration of the horror of narcissistic abuse and the susceptibility of students to the same. A drummer friend states succinctly, “it’s not about jazz drumming.”
Musically, I enjoy it for the illustration of intensity of commitment, albeit not completely accurate, that I've known, been in the dusty halls of, and have seen in the folks that most inspire me. I believe most inherent natural talent is squandered or ignored. Benefactors certainly help. Most people, even the most appreciative, seem to underestimate the love and work involved… I may need to revisit the story of the Red Shoes and other films you mention. Thanks for that.
Great points on the Cinderella story. The self-limiting belief and racism of, "they play so naturally*,” that denies the sacrifice of the practitioners and progenitors of the culture and art form, arguably the greatest American export, needs much wider understanding. (And of course the movie features a white male mentor and a white male student, which _could_ be okay…) Thanks for calling it out!
It’s a great film for discussion for sure. Is it flawed in that the viewer can reach so many conclusions about what they’ve seen? That may be on the filmmakers. I’d like to hear from them speaking in retrospect.
Fwiw, the truly elite jazz musicians don’t play king of the mountain. They don’t need or want to. It’s anathema to the love behind, “You’ve gotta be willing to die with the motherf*cker.”
Subscribed.
Kind regards,
Daniel 🤙
(*Quoting a dear relative of a different time, walking through the Smithsonian piano exhibit, now many years ago.)
people probably don't like the movie because the drummer doesn't learn the rudiments of putting a bass drum over the head of a drum teacher, lol
What do Jazz musicians think of Blue Giant? I thought it was a pretty great movie.
First of, Andy, thank you for everything you've done. I'm a huge fan of your dissertations.
I feel inspired to share my take.
I’m a Jazz musician and I loved Whiplash. To me, the movie falls into the same category as The Wrestler: A movie about a guy who decides “fuck it, I’m going all in, and I don’t care if it kills me”. Therein lies the drama. It’s not supposed to be an accurate representation of the world of Wrestling (although it looks pretty accurate). The main character is not a role model to follow. The movie isn’t telling the audiences “Look, kids, this is what competitive fighting is all about: Destroy yourselves, neglect your life, your health and your family”. The point of the movie is providing a drama: here’s a person who lost their way, but we relate to them because even though we wouldn’t do what they do, we feel a lot of what they feel and it hurts us to see them do that.
Whiplash is a fascinating drama about the clash of two conflicting forces of nature. One says “I’m a stop you right there”, the other one says “The fuck you are. Go ahead and try”. The Conductor is doing everything in its power to demoralize Niemann. Meanwhile, Niemann is so out of his mind, so obsessed with “winning”, that he rampages through like a freight train going out of control. This clash between these two forces is what makes this a fun movie to watch. It’s also beautifully directed and very well acted. But no, don’t go in there looking for the experience of making music. For something more in that style, I recommend a movie called The Legend of 1900 with Tim Roth. It is the quintessential movie about a man to whom the only thing that matters in life is music, and he too, like Niemann, will take this to the ultimate consequences. Just not quite like Niemann.
Just watched the abstract Bowie biopic Moonage Daydream. A feast for the eyes, ears and mind. Bowie did go through a sellout period in the 80s, but he decided the money and fame weren't worth it. He must have lost many fans from that era afterwards, and I'm glad he took that chance. Bowie was not a jazz musician, but he did carve a unique path which incorporated several artforms that the film illustrates within its format.
I still think that Tin Machine was sadly unappreciated.
@@scottmcgregor4829 Agree. I saw them in San Francisco a few feet from the band - they had a lot going on.
I can’t stand that people think this film is about music. It’s about abusive relationships.
It's a terrible movie...obviously. It makes music-making look like a hellscape. Music, art and science are not respected in America. This silly movie does not help matters.
I have tried to take another angle and discussed it's positive merits too.
Its not a documentary or a advertisement for music school, its “fiction.”
Just love the passion in this video - but I think passion is the one word that's missing from your argument. Maybe you're moving towards it with your analysis of "love" in the process. But talent = the hard work you mention + passion.
If you really love music the work is not hard
round midnight is a awesome,poignant movie,as you know the house band is mclaughlin,hancock etc sweet and lowdown is also very good,sean penn as jazz guitarist, who is jealous of django
At my level, I'm happy to play for free, but I do expect to be paid for hauling and setting up all the gear needed for an amplified live performance.
R. Stevie Moore, for one, has owned his entire process. He might not be rich....but,
Look Andy I liked it frankly because of the photography of the drumset shaking when he did the last solo. The story was entertaining but gatekeepers are now telling us we not allowed to like La La Land either as it’s not a serious old school musical ffs 😂
But I have to admit nothing like the sound & the photography of the old Buddy Rich single stroke roll acelerondo a poco a poco 🔥 😂
I'm not a jazz musician, but I get that the musicians out there don't care for it and that it has accuracy issues. As a non-jazz musician, I can view it from a different perspective. I can strip away the expectations of a more concise reflection of what the film should be expressing. I liked the film for its surface basics of an asshole professor vs the star underdog student. The performances and the essential telling of the hero and adversary are what I like. It could've been told with any other set of characters, meaning not necessarily musicians. That it takes place in the world of jazz music is for me, not so vital, which of course makes it just a hollow protagonist/antagonist story. I love jazz and there are far better films that go deeper into what it means to live in that world, but I didn't need that just to enjoy it for what it is. I like films that tell a story about the teacher/student dynamic, and think that it did a fine job of showing just that.
Is Whiplash really about jazz, or does it use jazz as a context to explore the psyche of an individual, particularly sanctimonious powerlust partly expressed as sadism. The story could easily be set in an athletics club.
Exactly correct. Whiplash is about an abusive relationship. Period.. The mechanics of abusive relationships are separate from the type of relationship. Jazz school is just the backdrop for color. The film could have just as well been about writers, doctors, a married couple or any persuit in which people take their role seriously. Thats why the filmakers didnt consider it relevant to know anything about why anyone loves jazz, other than the fact that it looks impressive and cool. Its like a film about mental illness that features beautiful landscapes. NOT about meadows and mountains!
It could also be set in an academic science lab....
Simon's teacher felt he was a failure. Getting older meant he had fewer chances and less time to share in a student's greatness. The fact that (apparent;y) his favorite "project" ended up dying just drove him harder.
Yeah it reminds me of when people got mad at the jazz representation in Soul, ITS NOT A JAZZ MOVIE
So, were you rushing or dragging?
5678!
Most of the film the captain is counting the band in like a dance teacher should!
5678
instead of
1234
that says it all
Maybe it should be called.” Hey jazz musicians , just fuckin relax and enjoy the show”. Classical composers and conductors don’t pull apart “Amadeus” , it’s a movie , get over yourselves .
Sudden finish … ?! Anyhoo - the true tortured artist story is Beethoven - when he realised his deafness was encroaching he really wanted to kill himself - but - as he wrote in a famous letter - he didn’t because he wanted to gift the world more of his genius despite the personal pain - I choke up every time just thinking about it !
Spot on Andy. My initial (gut) reaction to Whiplash was "NO! this is definitely not the way. This is intolerable." I'll go further and say that "Whiplash" does not portray reality.
I was spellbound for the entire 30+ minutes of your video. Excellent!
As over the top as the movie was, there are people in music ed. who are not cute cuddly teddy bears. But the movie really isn't about jazz. It's about abuse from someone in authority, someone who is holding the keys to a subordinate's future, and why that subordinate might endure it. It's OK to suspend your disbelief about the storyline when you're watching a movie. I'd bet there are soldiers who enjoy unrealistic war movies, cops who enjoy watching Chicago P.D.. I'm a tech guy by day, and I can enjoy movies about computer hacking which are WAY more laughably inaccurate than Whiplash will ever be.
Jazz musicians hate "Whiplash" because it's TRUE. In NYC, the only pipeline to gigs is through Jazz at Lincoln Center/Julliard, or other so-called "Jazz colleges." It's become fully institutionalized. Otherwise, you're just an outsider/space invader to their "closed club and then will shun you, no matter who well you play. The outrageous prices of these institutions shut out all but the rich. Hence, the birth of the "Jazz Trustafarian." That's the current, young Jazz musician. And, guess what? They all sound the same, playing sh!t made up 70 years ago by cats who didn't even read music but who played from the heart with soul. There's a strong argument to be made that these kids aren't really Jazz musicians at all. Jazz is improvised music, and just like Art said, it's from the source, through the musician to the listener. You just can't do that with regurgitated licks.
Wasn’t Flashdance exploring the same all-or-nothing to the road to success theme? Perhaps the school in Fame also.
In music, isn't the monster of the corporate taskmaster being subdued? Is there not a third way (or rather a full spectrum of ways)? Choosing against that ludicrous gamble for a success huge enough to keep you in class As for the remainder of your three score years and two, you may create art that is blue plaque great?
Are we not entering an age of ever lower cost music production, of phones with HiFi microphones, of second hand SM58s and laptops with Logic loaded, working out of your Mum's house in North Finchley?
Weren't the greatest artists more recently amateurs (sic), and not contracted to a prince or corporation?
Snow White and the 7 Dwarfes has the Queen Damcing to Death in Red Hot Shoes. Is there a Fairytale whit the similar Fate for one of the Leading Characters?
My algodriven comment is a listener improvisation in a-moll.