The recent Rick Beato Lanois interview contained this gem from Lanois: “Talent is one thing. Getting up in the morning, putting your boots on and doing something about it is another.”
@@irishthump73 Sure, that's part one, and then part two is, you can pratice all you want, but if you don't go out and put yourself in situations where your natural talent and self-earned preparedness can be appreciated, well, nobody will ever care.
But, you're not going to love music and put in the hours if you're absolutely no good at it from the start. Or basketball. Small muscle, large muscle, fast reaction time, memory, quick learner....... There are doses of talent handed out by Nature. These are developed by those who accurately recognize their talent, are "good at it", and therefore are able to expand and refine their talent. I'm rubbish at memorization and reading notation. But I can improvise and have great time. The handicaps will keep me from ever being able to really play bop or classical, but i can funk and swing a blues with anybody. I "love" bop and classical as much as i love funk and blues, but no matter how much time i put in, I'll never play classical at a high level, or bop, because the reading is impossible, and i can't memorize quickly enough to progress.....fingerings, forms, riffs, etc. so I can't progress quickly enough in a lifetime to get really good. I love basketball, but I have no hops, and my reaction time is too slow to play good defense. But I'll murder you on the golf course. Even though i don't like the sport nearly as much as basketball, AND I never practice. Talent. Genetics. It is a part of it.
I don't think that's the only thing musicians don't like the movie . I think what the move attempts to claim is the student only improved because of these harsh methods and this was the only way he would have progressed and this justifies the teacher's methods . In real life there would not have been a good outcome to this . Cruelty ,abusiveness and bulling are not the way to get the best out of someone. Any student with any self respect would have quit as soon as this stuff started.
That's what I did In highschool after getting into the top combo and honor jazz. No reason to stay anymore. Our teacher was the highschool version of Fletcher, doing just enough to barely not get fired
The movie absolutely does not try to justify Fletcher's methods. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't even have a happy ending, as even the protagonist's father realizes that his son has been completely consumed by his obsession and unhealthy need for Fletcher's approval.
I studied classical piano and graduated from a London music college. While I wouldn't recommend it for long term mental health, the most progress i made on my technique was under the tutelage of a tyrant who terrified the crap out me. In Jazz as well as classical music there is a long list of tyrannical, even abusive and violent band leaders who created great art...Charles Mingus comes to mind who was known to punch slackers in the face, and even get out the shotgun he always kept handy in his rehearsal room. To have any chance of becoming a classical performer, by the age of six, at least two hours practice a day is required, more coming up to exams and competitions..This can be seen as abusive in itself. Some cultures are much more prepared to push their children to extreme limits than others, and are dominating the classical music scene as a result. I love being a musician now, but the journey wasn't without pain and sacrifice.
When I was in college we actually called our music director "Coach". He would make some students cry in big band rehearsals at times. He has passed away at this point but he was an a-hole to the max. He told me I couldn't play saxophone professionally, that I shouldn't compose my own music and just play standards, would never be able to live in NYC and be a musician etc... Fifty years later I've more than proved him wrong. I'm a Grammy nominated saxophonist at this point. Sometimes these types of people can be motivators. Great video topic Andy, thank you man.
You better believe it! And also, although jazz requires relaxation....one can not relax until they get a certain amount of skill under their belt. It's a tricky thing.
"The Red Shoes " is THE movie regarding sacrifices for one's art and the blurring of reality. For me "Whiplash" feels like a sports movie with musicians. Andy is MOSTLY right about talent being the drive to do something. My friend's uncle was a child prodigy pianist, and he says his real gift was the obsession with playing. That said; he still was able to learn things and perform with much more ability the an average musician who works just as hard.
My mother was another one who had real talent on the piano and little interest in playing. I used to labor for weeks to learn a few Scott Joplin tunes, And then my mom, who had probably never played a note of ragtime in her life, and only sat down to the piano a few times a year, would glance over the music, stumble through for a few minutes, and then I'm hearing The Entertainer and Maple Leaf Rag in a way I'd never be able to play them. Arrrgghh!
AND, you're not going to "love" something you're absolutely no good at. It wouldn't be enjoyable. You have to "enjoy the work" to put in the hours required. Jordan "Loved" basketball and worked at it BECAUSE he was good at it.Same with Einstein and math. Yes, the work is 99% of it, but genetics, e.g. "talent" plays a part. If you love watching football but are rubbish playing, even thought you tried and were well coached as a youngster, it's because Bob and Not Messi's your uncle.
"That said; he still was able to learn things and perform with much more ability the an average musician who works just as hard." No, that's WHY he was able to.
'Whiplash' could've used another vehicle to tell the story, like football, dance, or maths, and no doubt practitioners in those fields would get the hump. The phrase "That would never happen" is always the giveaway. Imagine a newspaper hack watching a film where this hack, Clark Kent, throws on a cape and flies (with his underpants on the outside): "That would never happen!" Completely misses the point. David Foster Wallace's book 'Infinite Jest' is a deep dive into 'Whiplash' territory, the vehicles being tennis and drug and alcohol rehab. But, yeah, the Red Shoes is bang on, Andy. Brilliant VT as always. Cheers, Ian
It isn't a Jazz movie but "Walk Hard" is just great for its taking apart Music Bios. Robert Gordon the fantastic Rockabilly singer covered the song "Walk Hard" without knowing it was from a movie. Great video Andy. Once I heard about the movie and the abuse I said no thanks.
I plan on making a stream-of-consciousness video about this some day, but this is as good a place as any to put a rough-draft response to the movie and address your point of view. I think first of all that a few things need to be understood. First, the writer based his experiences on what he went through in High School, not college, which is why it doesn't make sense for reasons Adam already explained. This sort of thing doesn't go on in colleges. It does, however, happen in high schools, where you have a requirement for people in band to spend half the year in marching band performing "field shows," which is like ballet, but performed in front of people that hate you every friday to create a dichotomy between band nerds playing old unpopular music and the football team and cheerleaders running around in tight fitting clothing in front of everyone. Part of field shows are the drum core, which is more associated with high level performace attitudes and football, so in addition to the 'failed in life and have to teach high school' people there you also have the 'hero coach' mentality creep in, and you end up with a situation where an old, impotent failure attempts to regain youthful success by exploiting the bodies and minds of young, naive men, encouraging them to sacrifice themselves in order to achieve his own goal in the name of 'glory.' In other words it's an allegory for fascism. I felt like you started to approach this point when you talked about jazz representing liberal western democracies, and wish you'd made the full connection. Jazz, and musicianship in general, is about self-promotion, building your abilities and making yourself stronger. A great mentor in jazz is someone that facilitates that. In Whiplash he does the opposite, he tries to bend the main character to his own vision of perfection. He almost represents the worst aspects of jazz, in a way as he destroys this young musician's chances of becoming a great musician, instead of just a monkey drummer playing at some reception that likely never takes him everywhere. The writer even said when asked about the kid's fate that he imagines that he kills himself. The 'win' is purely in the moment of glory and apparent triumph of finally doing what the old man wants, while getting injured, losing his girlfriend and emotionally isolating himself from everyone but the conductor, including the audience. This only works in a high school football mentality, where for the coach there is no outside world beyond graduation, the coach who's job is to use the kids in his team up as much as possible to accomplish the aim of winning, that facilitates this constant carnage of athletes suffering life-long injuries for high school sports teams, for someone else's vanity. There is also the deeper symbolism going on here about an old impotent man seducing, grooming and ultimately possessing a young man so that he can accomplish his own desires while destroying the man in the process. The kid in this movie becomes his bitch. I didn't really understand the need for him to leave his girlfriend until I realized this point, and the symbolism of him 'coming through' at the end 'dripping blood' can't be ignored. I think there's an instinctual distaste for this movie from jazz musicians partly because of the atmosphere of sexual harrassment that many of them face, of this kind. It really is about self-determination vs slavery, being yourself vs being used for someone else, and the movie seems to prefer the latter. And why is that really? Because it's a sports movie, and again, this is the norm in sports, this repressed homosexuality manifesting in pseudo-sexual relationships with replacement fathers, the destruction of the self in order to be 'reborn' in the image of someone else, the transformation from the freedom and dominance of masculinity to the obedient submissiveness of femininity, in order to fulfill the fading potency of the aging old man who seeks immortality and fears both death and youth at the same time, and can only seemingly overcome this by destroying that youth in a moment of time where time itself stands still and is vanquished. And that's not what jazz is about.
I love when Andy goes all full on philosophical stream of consciousness at the end of his videos, makes me laugh and think...quickly becoming my favorite channel.
The Red Shoes is the name of the story, written by Hans Christian Anderson. I got a very Red Shoes vibe from Whiplash though I also got a very "if you don't bleed for your shite you ain't shit" vibe.
Every "love" of music is not the same, as I believe I observe personally and objectively. And it's not really about a love of music. it's about a love for something deeper that finds it's expression in the relationship one has with the particular form of communication called "music". Something is communicated through music that an individual is already pre-positioned to receive and process in a way that stimulates them in the varying degrees that distinguish a casual listener from a lover/devotee/connoisseur or musician. Talent is propensity combined with ability. There is "something about you" that is prepared to receive and relate before you ever hear a note or pick up an instrument. And it's not just about music. Many creative people express themselves through multiple mediums. It's all about which mediums you're exposed too, what vehicle you have access to and whether or not it's encouraged by your environment. I believe you're born with a propensity which experience focuses and which eventually lands on whatever you're exposed to which gives a voice to it. Of course you have to develop it but, its the sense that the expression personally belongs to you that motivates you to pursue its development. These things happen without our conscious knowledge a great deal of the time.
I agree with you on this! I think the director of Whiplash was trying to represent a high school "jazz band" context. The director himself mentioned it was based on his own experience in high school jazz band. From my being around people who were in band/marching band, this is pretty accurate. The scene is pretty competitive, and there's a lot of drama revolving around placement and status, getting the piece right and rehearsed, all in all a very classical approach to the music. And it makes sense to an extent it's less of a democracy, it's a big band context, not a bebop context, and you're wrangling disorderly high schoolers. Of course the problem is that the HS context doesn't transpose into university level jazz in the least, and it transposes into gigging jazz even less! If this were a movie about people competing to be in drumcorps like Blue Devils etc, it would make more sense. But people go to college for jazz for the freedom of the music. And I think that's where the disconnect of the film originates -- it comes from an understanding of the music in a totally different context from where its actual setting is.
Some very interesting ideas here about the concept of talent vs hard work, the beauty of jazz, etc. Appreciate the unedited, free-form delivery as well. V appropriate for the discussion at hand and quite refreshing in a world full of tightly edited, breakneck video content
I can't hate the movie as is sparked an interest in big band music that might have been the reason i joined a big band and started studying jazz guitar. The movie is also just overall fantastically shot, acted and has some important things to say. The jazz aspect does feel like a skin, and the director himself said that he picked drums because it felt the most like traditional sport, and could therefore illustrate physical wear Neimann experiences the best to the audience. Also maybe it's a regional thing, but all my musician friends and bandmates love the movie
Your analysis of Jazz-being analogous to liberal democracy and leaving room for individual expression within a set of guardrails, contrasted with the more "authoritarian" rules of classical-is among the best I've ever heard.
I actually really like the movie - and was surprised when alot of players I know really didn't like it. I totally understand everything you've said and their reasoning, but as a former boxer and boxing photographer for the press, I can tell you Rocky is as unrealistic as it gets - all of that training and especially the fight scenes!!! like Whiplash alot of the Rocky movies are based on real life events, and most boxers I know LOVE the Rocky movies despite none of it "ringing true". That said, some are boxers BECAUSE of seeing one of the movies, and all are very aspirational in a sense if one was a boxer. Whereas alot of the Whiplash "message" is that "suffering for the art" rather than the aspirational "isnt music just sheer joyousness" - ie its allowed to be fake, but we want the correct kind of fake to enjoy it! For me, Im just happy to see a film with a decent budget made about a drummer (in jazz of all things!) - and I loved the soundtrack and the performances throughout. Im a bit simpler in that regard!
I have watched a few of Mr Edwards' videos and I think this is one of the best. I am very pleased he acknowledged the importance of informed listeners. Of course, a lot of the time, especially in the Jazz worrld, people can exchange being informed for being incredibly arrogant and snobbish. But I have long maintained the view that the value of a piece of music is in large part derived from its sincerity. If you listen to something like "I Will Follow" by U2, it is a good piece of music, not because of the complexity of the chords or rythm (it is obviously very simplistic), but from the sincerity of the performers, especially at the time it was recorded and formed an important part of the band's set.
Thank you for yet another most interesting video ! Be it in the realms of classical or jazz music, I'm still awaiting for any satisfactory movie about music (except from perhaps "Amadeus", and "Between a smile and a tear" but the later is rather in the form of a portrait) I might lack of references, but they all seem to derive from what seems true in regards to the process of becoming and being a musician. Most portraits about jazz or classical composers are either portraying an either sick or abusive caracter, or the scenario is romanced (turns away from music to rather a love story for mercantile reasons) and none seem to emphasize the reasons for which we should even more appreciate and love the music written by these geniuses. Whiplash, in my sense, describes the process as if transposed from the Stallone-Rocky-scenario where, if you're just in a bad place in life and in need of a pushback, all you have to do is pull yourself together and do some exercise. In this film, the scene where the hands of the drummer is bleeding from the practising whilst his "master" is screaming on the top of his lungs, is utterly pathetic. It goes to cheaply resume "the suffering" (what most viewers have been expecting, since this cliché has been reiterated so many times) into a process representing some weeks, and in the movie itself, just a few minutes. As far as I know, no film director ever embedded, not only the hard work and its consistency, but even less so, all the things that never occured because of the major choises in style of life. This process goes on not for a few months or so, but rather during several decades, from a young persons ago into adulthood, and seeing these candycoated movies about music, this totally tilts towards the idea, that only those who are "born with talent" can engage, and if they do so, the process takes some months to achieve. I'm all ears in case some of you have any recommandations for good movies about music and musicians. (I will see "Around midnight") And, please, do see "Between a smile and a tear". Thanks for the attention.
Thinking about it, there's a double edged sword with the jazz ethos as you describe. When the individual musician is not hog tied to a composer's comprehensive map, indeed the freedom and democracy of expression, exploring, digging, and finding a way within the context of rules and an ensemble. To shine through and carve that space in the picture. But that individual musician has to bring to the outside what's inside, if there's to be authenticity in the performance. That actually can be a problem if the individual is simply uninteresting, shallow, or has very little life experience or sense of shared humanity outside of the commitment to the art. There's a very obscure film that sort of gets at what I'm trying to say. If you can get your hands on it, the film is worth watching because it was experimental at the time, its from 1961 and its called The Connection. I believe half the actors in the single-setting film were working jazz musicians. They were simply jamming in an apartment while everyone there were waiting for a long expected heroin dealer to show up. It hit me while watching that film that the relative shallowness of the musicians' lives, who were not really living life they were just stringing along notes until the next opportunity to address their low dopamine condition, were massively limiting factors on where the music could go. As in, to transport, to elevate, to inspire. So in that sense jazz can be both the most amazing musical experience or the most miserly musical experience, even if in both cases the mastery of the craft is there.
I actually did have a bass drum smashed over my head once one Tuesday Jazz Night at the Butcher's Arms Skegness back in 1978 after a lacklustre second chorus trumpet solo on Mood Indigo. Funny, I remember thinking it was tuned to D as it came down so maybe I have perfect pitch. I did feel a bit bad at the time admittedly but things were different back then. You couldn't get away with that now cus of Health and Safety or whatever. Having said that it might have done me some good as it really sharpened up my practice schedule and I was in better shape later. Call it Stockholm Syndrome but if I met that guy now I'd probably shake his hand. :)
The movie ended up just being about the culture of total work, having an interchangeable lens to see through that could’ve switched between academic jazz, investment banking, law school, or any other field of corporate competitiveness.
Love the video.....what happened aat the end? It just ended suddenly. was that intended? and how come your phone has a standard ringtone? As a prog/jazz musician you really should have a much cooler ringtone....(LOL). Love the video Andy. no worries. Love the lo-fi no-editing style. Here and on your Patreon. And there's something about you not planning the video which makes this almost as a conversation. Riding the wave man...riding the wave....shooting the breeze...and btw I agree that the problem with Whiplash is that it makes Jazz musicians hardasses as if their playing Paganini or a Rachmaninov concerto. It's as if the screenplay was written on a classic violinist or a pianist and they decided to make it more hip by switching to a jazz drummer in NY.
The jazz part of whiplash feels mostly like a skin. Which is still a cool way to include it, but I would like to see a story that’s truly about music making and what it does for life
The movie is called “the Drummer” I think. Recommended by Peter Erskine from comments in another Whiplash breakdown video. Peter believed this 20 minute, low-budget film did what Whiplash couldn’t by showing exactly what you’re asking for. Whiplash focused on the worst aspects of a budding musician, not the beauty of making music. Hollywood knows people will pay to see a train wreck. I watched The Drummer and that… that is why people sacrifice, have passion and believe in the human connection of music.
My beef with Whiplash was that I didn't buy the motivations of the music professor. You watch the first part of the movie watching him try to wring perfection out of his students. In the second part of the movie, he risks the quality of the whole band's performance to strike out at a student. I didn't believe it.
I didn't buy it either. And the deeper parts, if there were any, were lost on me because I couldn't get past the teacher, who was so far off the reality scale that no school would ever hire this guy and if they did his nose would surely meet up with someone's fist.
I think the main motivation of the music professor in Whiplash (and bullies in general) is to feel superior over others. He’s a tyrant and a sadist. He justifies his behavior by saying he demands perfection.
@@KenNickels I wouldn't be so sure, if the school's reputation and income stream were directly tied to their jazz band as being the best of the best like , oh, let's say, certain american colleges and their football teams, I'm sure they wouldn't have much trouble looking the other way for their star. In actual reality, many schools have turned a blind eye to their cash cow faculty and/or students for far worse antics than throwing musical equipment at people and being curmudgeonly.
There's a great 10 episode Japanese Anime titled 'Kids on the Slope' which is about two Japanese kids in the 60s who play jazz. Ones a more experienced self taught jazz drummer, and the other is a classical pianist who is basically told to unlearn the idea of perfection and to loosen up in order to play jazz. The two songs they perform are 'My Favorite Things' And 'Moanin'. Two of the best parts is that there's a lot of performances where it's just the two of them, Piano and Drums, performing. And not to spoil things but I doubt you'd watch it, they're not even aspiring professional musicians nor do they even become that at the end of the story. It was quite simply a story about the love of the music and still the characters took the music very seriously.
Andy - I think everyone knows that you don't plan these videos! 😀 Seriously, I really enjoy the spontaneity of your talks and your enthusiasm for music. In the case of Whiplash, it seemed t o be largely a vehicle for JK Simmons who is a great character actor. Even those of us who are only listeners of music appreciated that some of the elements of it might be exaggerated. Thanks again for these videos. Always enjoy watching them.
The entire movie was phony. From both a musicians perspective, a writers perspective and film aficionado perspective. It's Hollywoood's idea of musical dedication geared to the laymen. It's basically the old "sports coach pushed the young athlete to go beyond his limitations" story. But it isn't reality in the music world. As for the message -- it's bullshit. The teacher sabotages his own concert to humiliate the drummer? An audience doesn't know who messes up. They just know it sounds bad. And then the drummer shows off and THAT is the message? Yeah, right. That's real. The best movie about the music business (written by a musician) is a small indie film called "THE GIG."
I had this inner conversation in my early to mid twenty's. I had developed as an artists to the point that older well known musicians were starting to notice me and were asking me to play, but I realized that as a self-taught jazz musician ( very much on the avant-garde side of things) with my own voice, I new I would sacrifice a normal life and financially, and I new it would be constant criticism d examination of every note I played. I just wanted to create, play and hear my music, I was not real interested/driven by performing, i just love sound, music, jazz/blues, so I figured I would choose a profession were I can have a live and a family and play for myself, Only now after over a 25 year hiatus am I looking to perform and record for public consumption. I do not think I regret it, and I am more capable of taken the negativity over something so personal.
I never thought of It as being about jazz or music, it's really about abuse and a culture that allow It to happen. I feel like It could have been More accurate to change the setting for a movie set, a media in Which this sort of behavior Is highly encouraged. Also, the red shoes Is a fucking great movie, i need to get myself a copy with a decente máster.
I’d suggest a subset of the Red Shoes narrative that might be its own genre, which is the obsession/insanity narrative, exemplified best IMO by Altman’s Vincent & Theo. There is no choice in this scenario, the artist is driven to create regardless of the obvious consequences - poverty, social exclusion, loneliness etc.
I am a retired photographer. When I retired I decided to sell fine photographs on the side. Soon enough I decided that I didn't want to bargain with customers over the price so I stopped making photographs for sale. After that I noticed that I didn't care about which images would appeal to others or was], otherwise, marketable. I began making photographs that I wanted to make. It was a revelation.
If I ever would have had a teacher like the one in whiplash I would have left immediately and told him to f*** off !! - Thankfully all my music teachers have been reasonable people who were actually sane.
I thought that movie was a ridiculous representation of jazz education more than jazz really. A jazz program in a college/university has a hard enough time these days to convince parents to spend tuition money with such a poor chance of having a real income once graduated. It was a good horror movie character. I don’t believe a real teacher like that would last long in any music program that would like to hold onto or attract new students.
Very good video overall. :) The 'Red Shoes' comparison illustrates Whiplash's storyline very well, and your assessment of jazz musicians disliking it because it makes jazz look dehumanized rings valid; it's also very colored by the director's feelings and personal experiences. That said, I strongly disagree with your take on talent, because the presumption that it's all about 'hard work' and 'love' brings the most gifted and amazing of us down to the level of the lowest common denominator. Talent is a real, innate predisposition that is discovered at some point in life (or isn't, unfortunately), and cannot be taught. No matter how hard one works or how interested they may be in the subject, they'll never be able to reach the heights a talented individual can. And level of proficiency in music is objective, not subjective. Of course, talent, in and of itself, needs to be nurtured and tempered by obtaining skill and practicing so it could have any real value. Talent and hard work are not one and the same, but they make a winning combination!
Great video man! Really loved the Simon C references. By the way, when I made my "Red Shoes" album in 1982 I didn't even know about the story you told today. Your observations really hit home with me and I'll be sharing this with my jazzer friends.
Had my own WHIPLASH several yr's ago at an Aebersold Jazz Camp -witnessing one of "mentors" RIP INTO couple young high schoolers!! (ON HIS PHONE all during their performance!) And if not cruelty, SNOBBERY & CONDESCENSION were pervasive! Prime example was during one of evening showcases by ""mentors", audience reprimanded & instructed HOW TO PROPERLY APPLAUD!! Sheesh...
Yeah, I don't get why there's such a denial that this behavior exists in jazz ed. Not to the point of throwing chairs at people (I hope), but your experience is not unique at all.
@@jaredcook3757 Hi Jared - thanks for affirmation of viewpoint! Life-long musician here, & as retirement gift to myself, what SHOULD have been very ENJOYABLE experience was disappointment! What i learned is to recognize the offenders - and not let them sully my LOVE of music!
First of, Andy, thank you for everything you've done. I'm a huge fan of your dissertations. I feel inspired to share my take. I’m a Jazz musician and I loved Whiplash. To me, the movie falls into the same category as The Wrestler: A movie about a guy who decides “fuck it, I’m going all in, and I don’t care if it kills me”. Therein lies the drama. It’s not supposed to be an accurate representation of the world of Wrestling (although it looks pretty accurate). The main character is not a role model to follow. The movie isn’t telling the audiences “Look, kids, this is what competitive fighting is all about: Destroy yourselves, neglect your life, your health and your family”. The point of the movie is providing a drama: here’s a person who lost their way, but we relate to them because even though we wouldn’t do what they do, we feel a lot of what they feel and it hurts us to see them do that. Whiplash is a fascinating drama about the clash of two conflicting forces of nature. One says “I’m a stop you right there”, the other one says “The fuck you are. Go ahead and try”. The Conductor is doing everything in its power to demoralize Niemann. Meanwhile, Niemann is so out of his mind, so obsessed with “winning”, that he rampages through like a freight train going out of control. This clash between these two forces is what makes this a fun movie to watch. It’s also beautifully directed and very well acted. But no, don’t go in there looking for the experience of making music. For something more in that style, I recommend a movie called The Legend of 1900 with Tim Roth. It is the quintessential movie about a man to whom the only thing that matters in life is music, and he too, like Niemann, will take this to the ultimate consequences. Just not quite like Niemann.
Some of the most abusive and worst disciplinarians I have encountered in my life have been jazz orchestra conductors. In primary school, the conductor would THROW chalk board dusters (anything actually) at the drummer. He had no problem kicking people out of his band. At university, the conductor was so verbally abusive, everyone was scared of that guy. I don't recall a single word of encouragement from that guy. Towards the end of my stay at the university, some lecturers decided to tell me I cannot play jazz. This happened in multiple meetings meaning they spoke about it and decided this was how they'd approach my career. Not a word about how I could improve, no offers of guidance or private sessions. One might say, "oh that was just your experience", 1st I was not the only person in those orchestras. 2ndly, I'm just a guy in South Africa. How can a Hollywood film track so closely to my personal journey if others haven't had the same experience? There are stories of Miles Davis being an absolute horror as a bandleader. The are numerous stories of jazz musicians getting laughed off the stage. Jazz musicians are incredibly protective of the genre to the point of being absolute arseholes; this is fact! I know it is it. The behaviours of jazz educators, band leaders etc has NOTHING to do with the structure of the music.
I discovered Adam Neely through his Whiplash video too. This is a fascinating, insightful and thought-provoking video, dudemeister, and I really like it, even the crazy ending - ESPECIALLY the crazy ending!! Life happening or wot...?! Round Midnight's a wonderful film... ☝️😎
I feel there is a divide that is two sides of the coin, yin and yang between entertainment and art. Entertainment is to release worries and becoming part of a group gives the illusion of personal power by identifying with a hero, angst or not. The earthbound idol take on the negativity freeing the worshipper. But there is no true freedom without responsibility. And responsibility brings angst and so must seek balance and Soul. The connection that binds us as humans over clans and tribes seeks universals, not the exalted parochial of entertainers.
people learn when something is fun, off course there is hard work. Like //But to become a good squash player you need to be able to hit perfect tight length balls and that takes hours of practise and fantastic technique, but it can be fun by playing with mates. I have just started doing my grade 3 classical guitar in my early fitties and I do some scale wok and spider walking but the hardest bit was learning a grade 7 piece of music but now I can play it; I have also been asked to compose a piece of music. these two things combined are very enlightening, hard work but fun and immensely satisfying. It's also about being pushed out of your envelope but understanding that you/me are probably not going to the prodigy, but you can be good and it can be very rewarding. Would I like to be a genius= yes, will I be that Genius= probably not. Can I enjoy playing squash and learning guitar =100% yes. I love them both. and now I feel guilty about wasting my time commenting on your great video. Sorry.
Just watched the abstract Bowie biopic Moonage Daydream. A feast for the eyes, ears and mind. Bowie did go through a sellout period in the 80s, but he decided the money and fame weren't worth it. He must have lost many fans from that era afterwards, and I'm glad he took that chance. Bowie was not a jazz musician, but he did carve a unique path which incorporated several artforms that the film illustrates within its format.
It's not really about jazz, or even music. It's a psychological study of two characters. I've seen it five times, and I got something extra from it each time. I love it.
I haven't seen it, but I saw Black Swan which I loved even though I understood later that it is not (anymore) an accurate depiction of the world of ballet. The thing is it's fiction, and a creator always has the liberty to say 'what if' and create an interesting story on the basis of that. You can't hit through a snaredrum, but it is easily imaginable that you could. The mistake would be to think this movie says something about the jazz world, but maybe it does say something valuable about 'the human condition'..
Jazz is not a music or an artform, Jazz uses sound (music) to communicate....Jazz is way more than music...it is a consciousness. Jazz is a way of life.
I laughed all the way through the film... I took it as a dark comedy. It was so ridiculous, I just can't imagine anyone taking it seriously. I really don't imagine anyone could... especially jazz musicians. That being said, within that context of "Dark Comedy" I thought it was absolutely brilliant. Loved the film..
"round midnite" is a great jazz film. "you have to have a lot of heart to do this job" sic. Dexter Gordon If you look at Dex, the old vids in Holland, Denmark, you see he wasn't "playing himself" in the movie, he had his shit pretty well together, at least on stage, but watching him "act" you see he doesn't have to fake it. From what he observed in Bud Powell, others, himself, He experienced the same alienation, as the ultimate "foreigner", American black jazz musician in Europe, the sense of loss an exile feels, the kind of madness that comes with obsession with music and the demands the art and the job makes on you, working clubs, day in, day out.
Spot on Andy. My initial (gut) reaction to Whiplash was "NO! this is definitely not the way. This is intolerable." I'll go further and say that "Whiplash" does not portray reality. I was spellbound for the entire 30+ minutes of your video. Excellent!
I don’t hate it. As a cautionary tale, I consider it a great illustration of the horror of narcissistic abuse and the susceptibility of students to the same. A drummer friend states succinctly, “it’s not about jazz drumming.” Musically, I enjoy it for the illustration of intensity of commitment, albeit not completely accurate, that I've known, been in the dusty halls of, and have seen in the folks that most inspire me. I believe most inherent natural talent is squandered or ignored. Benefactors certainly help. Most people, even the most appreciative, seem to underestimate the love and work involved… I may need to revisit the story of the Red Shoes and other films you mention. Thanks for that. Great points on the Cinderella story. The self-limiting belief and racism of, "they play so naturally*,” that denies the sacrifice of the practitioners and progenitors of the culture and art form, arguably the greatest American export, needs much wider understanding. (And of course the movie features a white male mentor and a white male student, which _could_ be okay…) Thanks for calling it out! It’s a great film for discussion for sure. Is it flawed in that the viewer can reach so many conclusions about what they’ve seen? That may be on the filmmakers. I’d like to hear from them speaking in retrospect. Fwiw, the truly elite jazz musicians don’t play king of the mountain. They don’t need or want to. It’s anathema to the love behind, “You’ve gotta be willing to die with the motherf*cker.” Subscribed. Kind regards, Daniel 🤙 (*Quoting a dear relative of a different time, walking through the Smithsonian piano exhibit, now many years ago.)
The most ridiculous notion in Whiplash is that the big band is a happening thing, not the very occasional festival or Off-night Monday project. There is absolutely no market for big band jazz. None.
Is Whiplash really about jazz, or does it use jazz as a context to explore the psyche of an individual, particularly sanctimonious powerlust partly expressed as sadism. The story could easily be set in an athletics club.
Exactly correct. Whiplash is about an abusive relationship. Period.. The mechanics of abusive relationships are separate from the type of relationship. Jazz school is just the backdrop for color. The film could have just as well been about writers, doctors, a married couple or any persuit in which people take their role seriously. Thats why the filmakers didnt consider it relevant to know anything about why anyone loves jazz, other than the fact that it looks impressive and cool. Its like a film about mental illness that features beautiful landscapes. NOT about meadows and mountains!
Simon's teacher felt he was a failure. Getting older meant he had fewer chances and less time to share in a student's greatness. The fact that (apparent;y) his favorite "project" ended up dying just drove him harder.
I'm merely suggesting that a "directors cut" in which the drummer hurls the cymbal BACK at Mr.Dictator would be more satisfying: preferably with at least some blood spilled... if one throws a cymbal at my head, expect retribution, lol... You hit on the other issue around 24:00, in that this attempts to conform all humanity of an ensemble under the iron fist of a band-leader following THE SCORE is not what anyone who ever had to reach charts of a song on-the-spot would say was typical...
Two things odd about the movie: the Charlie Parker/Cymbal story you cite is the big one. A lot of people seem to want to blame the writers, but I think the character is the one making the mistake. He took it to be a threat, not a "gong show' prop. But the other theme that is present is that of originality. The teacher seems to be chastising the student to be more original. Okay, that never works. You can try to open up the student to other possibilities ("Hey check out what this cat is doing here..."), but eventually, the student has to synthesize it for themselves. When the student finally does take an 'original' solo (towards the end of the movie), it is almost a note-for-note transcription of a later Buddy Rich solo. And that you can blame on the writers/directors... I agree though, that it wasn't really about music making.
This was so insightful: a view of improvisational jazz as a metaphor for liberal democracy, for "love, equality, freedom," and for the negotiation, rules, and guidelines that are needed to make it work, and for people to create together. And how it differs from classical music in this way. Fantastic video.
Thank you for that. I try do make wider cultural observations rather than just answer the questions. But those of you who don't like long rambling videos the answer 'because it's not realistic'
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Understood. I guess my attention span has shortened these days. It is of course Hollywood and as you know, things are embellished at times. One of the things I did like about the movie was that they didn’t slap a happy ending on it. He didn’t get the girl at the end of the movie. So many times nowadays, writers find it necessary to leave people feeling good when they finish the movie. This one didn’t feel the need to do that, the girl had moved on, and he lost out. That’s life sometimes.
Snow White and the 7 Dwarfes has the Queen Damcing to Death in Red Hot Shoes. Is there a Fairytale whit the similar Fate for one of the Leading Characters?
round midnight is a awesome,poignant movie,as you know the house band is mclaughlin,hancock etc sweet and lowdown is also very good,sean penn as jazz guitarist, who is jealous of django
Job well done. "Round Midnight., as you mentioned, Paris Blues & All Night Long (1962) best Jazz flicks of all time Boss. Mo' Better Blues, despite having Jazz great Jeff Tain Watts in it, didn't have enough music in it !!
Just love the passion in this video - but I think passion is the one word that's missing from your argument. Maybe you're moving towards it with your analysis of "love" in the process. But talent = the hard work you mention + passion.
the drum teacher in whiplash reminds me of my old drama teacher.i learned so much from him,great teacher,but he could be really snappy sometimes,gay,alchoholic and a bit cantankerous,if he thought people werent pulling their weight,he had no qualms about letting them know,one day,one of the girls was 5 mins late for class.he said to her,so you want to be a actress,i wouldnt even let you sweep the fucking stage,of course she broke down in tears,but ultimately it was his teachings that got her into drama school.he wasnt quite as bad as the whiplash guy,yes john could be brutal,but he wasnt allways like that,and was responsible for getting many of his students into theatre schools,drama schools
Sudden finish … ?! Anyhoo - the true tortured artist story is Beethoven - when he realised his deafness was encroaching he really wanted to kill himself - but - as he wrote in a famous letter - he didn’t because he wanted to gift the world more of his genius despite the personal pain - I choke up every time just thinking about it !
Isn't being part of a jazz orchestra and playing to a score very different than playing improvisationally ? Isn't the former much closer formally to classical music than the latter ? I LOVED your insight that jazz is the expression of liberal democracy, within a rules-based framework, aroising in a cultural context straining for it. Very deep, rings true.
the "audience lock-in" you describe around 15:00 occurs 1) early on, in small scenes too 2) as a result of some social meaning of the music/art it's centered around. I had a decade touring constantly as a psychedelic trance producer reproducing my productions on rave-parties in over 55 countries. The precise sub-style and flavor I launched with is what people expected years later and were angry not to get. Artistic evolution is often not accepted even in avante-garde weirdo specialized musical scenes. The social meaning of the music is as a sort of community organizing principle, and deviating from this undermines peoples social constructs
I "found" jazz in 1967-1970 when most jazz musicians were relocating to Europe for jobs. I was very fortunate to live not far from the Newport Jazz Festival and also when Max Roach, Archie Shepp and Reggie Workman, three legendary players, were hired by the University of Massachusetts when I was an undergrad in 1971. I had a lot of early exposure to Jazz. And I managed to speak with a few musicians. Jazz players, even free jazz players, ALL tell a story, but it is new story every time. It's phenomenally creative.
Being an engineer, being a scientist can be as obsessive and personality consuming as being an artist. The only difference. engineers are in average better paid than musicians and thus can maintain a family life in parallel. It boils down to economics.
She wasn’t a jazz musician - but I had a clarinet teacher who was a whiplash. My family noticed it on the final weeks to my recital and feared for my health and sanity. (Which explains why today I play Flute and refuse to teach Clarinet-even tho I can). Unbelievably- even knocking on her door for the lesson enraged her!!!!!
The recent Rick Beato Lanois interview contained this gem from Lanois: “Talent is one thing. Getting up in the morning, putting your boots on and doing something about it is another.”
"Amateurs sit and wait for inspiration, the rest of us get up and go to work"
~Stephen King.
That's great quote. Every "natural talent" in the world has hours and hours of practice behind them.
@@irishthump73 Sure, that's part one, and then part two is, you can pratice all you want, but if you don't go out and put yourself in situations where your natural talent and self-earned preparedness can be appreciated, well, nobody will ever care.
But, you're not going to love music and put in the hours if you're absolutely no good at it from the start. Or basketball.
Small muscle, large muscle, fast reaction time, memory, quick learner....... There are doses of talent handed out by Nature.
These are developed by those who accurately recognize their talent, are "good at it", and therefore are able to expand and refine their talent. I'm rubbish at memorization and reading notation. But I can improvise and have great time. The handicaps will keep me from ever being able to really play bop or classical, but i can funk and swing a blues with anybody. I "love" bop and classical as much as i love
funk and blues, but no matter how much time i put in, I'll never play classical at a high level, or bop, because the reading is impossible, and i can't memorize quickly enough to progress.....fingerings, forms, riffs, etc. so I can't progress quickly enough in a lifetime to get really good. I love basketball, but I have no hops, and my reaction time is too slow to play good defense. But I'll murder you on the golf course.
Even though i don't like the sport nearly as much as basketball, AND I never practice. Talent. Genetics. It is a part of it.
@@MarkTarmannPianoCheck_it_out my favorite comment on this entire video thread. Thank you, Mark.
I don't think that's the only thing musicians don't like the movie . I think what the move attempts to claim is the student only improved because of these harsh methods and this was the only way he would have progressed and this justifies the teacher's methods . In real life there would not have been a good outcome to this . Cruelty ,abusiveness and bulling are not the way to get the best out of someone. Any student with any self respect would have quit as soon as this stuff started.
That's what I did In highschool after getting into the top combo and honor jazz. No reason to stay anymore. Our teacher was the highschool version of Fletcher, doing just enough to barely not get fired
I would not go without a zinger though.
The movie absolutely does not try to justify Fletcher's methods. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't even have a happy ending, as even the protagonist's father realizes that his son has been completely consumed by his obsession and unhealthy need for Fletcher's approval.
"Cruelty, abusiveness and bulling" ... sounds like academia!!!
I studied classical piano and graduated from a London music college. While I wouldn't recommend it for long term mental health, the most progress i made on my technique was under the tutelage of a tyrant who terrified the crap out me. In Jazz as well as classical music there is a long list of tyrannical, even abusive and violent band leaders who created great art...Charles Mingus comes to mind who was known to punch slackers in the face, and even get out the shotgun he always kept handy in his rehearsal room.
To have any chance of becoming a classical performer, by the age of six, at least two hours practice a day is required, more coming up to exams and competitions..This can be seen as abusive in itself. Some cultures are much more prepared to push their children to extreme limits than others, and are dominating the classical music scene as a result.
I love being a musician now, but the journey wasn't without pain and sacrifice.
When I was in college we actually called our music director "Coach". He would make some students cry in big band rehearsals at times. He has passed away at this point but he was an a-hole to the max. He told me I couldn't play saxophone professionally, that I shouldn't compose my own music and just play standards, would never be able to live in NYC and be a musician etc... Fifty years later I've more than proved him wrong. I'm a Grammy nominated saxophonist at this point. Sometimes these types of people can be motivators. Great video topic Andy, thank you man.
Are instructors telling us we must learn the basics first?
@@johnmontalvo9537 yes, I think you are correct. I learned the basics just didn't want to play the basics (standards) my entire life. Cheers!
Hey Andy, continue to do what you do, you are part of the solution, the world needs more people like you. You do your videos like a jazz solo....nice.
Amazing conversation! Thank you, Andy.
Playing jazz requires relaxation. Working yourself up into a rage ain’t gonna help you swing!
Word Up
Relaxation or flow?
You better believe it! And also, although jazz requires relaxation....one can not relax until they get a certain amount of skill under their belt. It's a tricky thing.
@@BrainstormMarketingrelaxation gets you into for. Working yourself up creates tension which usually leads to resistance to flow
"The Red Shoes " is THE movie regarding sacrifices for one's art and the blurring of reality.
For me "Whiplash" feels like a sports movie with musicians.
Andy is MOSTLY right about talent being the drive to do something. My friend's uncle was a child prodigy pianist, and he says his real gift was the obsession with playing.
That said; he still was able to learn things and perform with much more ability the an average musician who works just as hard.
The sports movie analogy seems very apt. I hadn’t thought of it that way before.
My mother was another one who had real talent on the piano and little interest in playing. I used to labor for weeks to learn a few Scott Joplin tunes, And then my mom, who had probably never played a note of ragtime in her life, and only sat down to the piano a few times a year, would glance over the music, stumble through for a few minutes, and then I'm hearing The Entertainer and Maple Leaf Rag in a way I'd never be able to play them. Arrrgghh!
AND, you're not going to "love" something you're absolutely no good at. It wouldn't be enjoyable. You have to "enjoy the work" to put in the hours required. Jordan "Loved" basketball and worked at it BECAUSE he was good at it.Same with Einstein and math. Yes, the work is 99% of it, but genetics, e.g. "talent" plays a part. If you love watching football but are rubbish playing, even thought you tried and were well coached as a youngster, it's because Bob and Not Messi's your uncle.
@@MarkTarmannPianoCheck_it_out I've seen some pretty awful bands who THOUGHT they were good and loved playing, LOL.
"That said; he still was able to learn things and perform with much more ability the an average musician who works just as hard." No, that's WHY he was able to.
'Whiplash' could've used another vehicle to tell the story, like football, dance, or maths, and no doubt practitioners in those fields would get the hump. The phrase "That would never happen" is always the giveaway. Imagine a newspaper hack watching a film where this hack, Clark Kent, throws on a cape and flies (with his underpants on the outside): "That would never happen!" Completely misses the point. David Foster Wallace's book 'Infinite Jest' is a deep dive into 'Whiplash' territory, the vehicles being tennis and drug and alcohol rehab. But, yeah, the Red Shoes is bang on, Andy. Brilliant VT as always. Cheers, Ian
Just so good Andy!!!
It isn't a Jazz movie but "Walk Hard" is just great for its taking apart Music Bios. Robert Gordon the fantastic Rockabilly singer covered the song "Walk Hard" without knowing it was from a movie. Great video Andy. Once I heard about the movie and the abuse I said no thanks.
Another superb video. Andy keep up the good work cheers!
The current run of talks are superb. Thank you.
Great video as always Andy!!
I plan on making a stream-of-consciousness video about this some day, but this is as good a place as any to put a rough-draft response to the movie and address your point of view.
I think first of all that a few things need to be understood. First, the writer based his experiences on what he went through in High School, not college, which is why it doesn't make sense for reasons Adam already explained. This sort of thing doesn't go on in colleges. It does, however, happen in high schools, where you have a requirement for people in band to spend half the year in marching band performing "field shows," which is like ballet, but performed in front of people that hate you every friday to create a dichotomy between band nerds playing old unpopular music and the football team and cheerleaders running around in tight fitting clothing in front of everyone.
Part of field shows are the drum core, which is more associated with high level performace attitudes and football, so in addition to the 'failed in life and have to teach high school' people there you also have the 'hero coach' mentality creep in, and you end up with a situation where an old, impotent failure attempts to regain youthful success by exploiting the bodies and minds of young, naive men, encouraging them to sacrifice themselves in order to achieve his own goal in the name of 'glory.'
In other words it's an allegory for fascism. I felt like you started to approach this point when you talked about jazz representing liberal western democracies, and wish you'd made the full connection. Jazz, and musicianship in general, is about self-promotion, building your abilities and making yourself stronger. A great mentor in jazz is someone that facilitates that. In Whiplash he does the opposite, he tries to bend the main character to his own vision of perfection. He almost represents the worst aspects of jazz, in a way as he destroys this young musician's chances of becoming a great musician, instead of just a monkey drummer playing at some reception that likely never takes him everywhere. The writer even said when asked about the kid's fate that he imagines that he kills himself. The 'win' is purely in the moment of glory and apparent triumph of finally doing what the old man wants, while getting injured, losing his girlfriend and emotionally isolating himself from everyone but the conductor, including the audience. This only works in a high school football mentality, where for the coach there is no outside world beyond graduation, the coach who's job is to use the kids in his team up as much as possible to accomplish the aim of winning, that facilitates this constant carnage of athletes suffering life-long injuries for high school sports teams, for someone else's vanity.
There is also the deeper symbolism going on here about an old impotent man seducing, grooming and ultimately possessing a young man so that he can accomplish his own desires while destroying the man in the process. The kid in this movie becomes his bitch. I didn't really understand the need for him to leave his girlfriend until I realized this point, and the symbolism of him 'coming through' at the end 'dripping blood' can't be ignored. I think there's an instinctual distaste for this movie from jazz musicians partly because of the atmosphere of sexual harrassment that many of them face, of this kind. It really is about self-determination vs slavery, being yourself vs being used for someone else, and the movie seems to prefer the latter.
And why is that really? Because it's a sports movie, and again, this is the norm in sports, this repressed homosexuality manifesting in pseudo-sexual relationships with replacement fathers, the destruction of the self in order to be 'reborn' in the image of someone else, the transformation from the freedom and dominance of masculinity to the obedient submissiveness of femininity, in order to fulfill the fading potency of the aging old man who seeks immortality and fears both death and youth at the same time, and can only seemingly overcome this by destroying that youth in a moment of time where time itself stands still and is vanquished.
And that's not what jazz is about.
I love when Andy goes all full on philosophical stream of consciousness at the end of his videos, makes me laugh and think...quickly becoming my favorite channel.
Better than anything on telly that's for sure
@@luciferpantykrist7570 ain’t that the truth.
Man, it's impressive how you keep a flow going with no editing. Love the videos!
The Red Shoes is the name of the story, written by Hans Christian Anderson. I got a very Red Shoes vibe from Whiplash though I also got a very "if you don't bleed for your shite you ain't shit" vibe.
Every "love" of music is not the same, as I believe I observe personally and objectively. And it's not really about a love of music. it's about a love for something deeper that finds it's expression in the relationship one has with the particular form of communication called "music". Something is communicated through music that an individual is already pre-positioned to receive and process in a way that stimulates them in the varying degrees that distinguish a casual listener from a lover/devotee/connoisseur or musician.
Talent is propensity combined with ability. There is "something about you" that is prepared to receive and relate before you ever hear a note or pick up an instrument. And it's not just about music. Many creative people express themselves through multiple mediums. It's all about which mediums you're exposed too, what vehicle you have access to and whether or not it's encouraged by your environment. I believe you're born with a propensity which experience focuses and which eventually lands on whatever you're exposed to which gives a voice to it. Of course you have to develop it but, its the sense that the expression personally belongs to you that motivates you to pursue its development. These things happen without our conscious knowledge a great deal of the time.
I agree with you on this!
I think the director of Whiplash was trying to represent a high school "jazz band" context. The director himself mentioned it was based on his own experience in high school jazz band. From my being around people who were in band/marching band, this is pretty accurate. The scene is pretty competitive, and there's a lot of drama revolving around placement and status, getting the piece right and rehearsed, all in all a very classical approach to the music. And it makes sense to an extent it's less of a democracy, it's a big band context, not a bebop context, and you're wrangling disorderly high schoolers.
Of course the problem is that the HS context doesn't transpose into university level jazz in the least, and it transposes into gigging jazz even less! If this were a movie about people competing to be in drumcorps like Blue Devils etc, it would make more sense. But people go to college for jazz for the freedom of the music. And I think that's where the disconnect of the film originates -- it comes from an understanding of the music in a totally different context from where its actual setting is.
Some very interesting ideas here about the concept of talent vs hard work, the beauty of jazz, etc. Appreciate the unedited, free-form delivery as well. V appropriate for the discussion at hand and quite refreshing in a world full of tightly edited, breakneck video content
I'm a student of your philosophy. Thank you for the deep thoughts and obvious experience.
I can't hate the movie as is sparked an interest in big band music that might have been the reason i joined a big band and started studying jazz guitar. The movie is also just overall fantastically shot, acted and has some important things to say. The jazz aspect does feel like a skin, and the director himself said that he picked drums because it felt the most like traditional sport, and could therefore illustrate physical wear Neimann experiences the best to the audience.
Also maybe it's a regional thing, but all my musician friends and bandmates love the movie
Love your remarks on Robert Fripp (one of my heroes) which are spot on :)
Your analysis of Jazz-being analogous to liberal democracy and leaving room for individual expression within a set of guardrails, contrasted with the more "authoritarian" rules of classical-is among the best I've ever heard.
that's literally one of the main essence of jazz vs. classical 😂
I actually really like the movie - and was surprised when alot of players I know really didn't like it. I totally understand everything you've said and their reasoning, but as a former boxer and boxing photographer for the press, I can tell you Rocky is as unrealistic as it gets - all of that training and especially the fight scenes!!! like Whiplash alot of the Rocky movies are based on real life events, and most boxers I know LOVE the Rocky movies despite none of it "ringing true". That said, some are boxers BECAUSE of seeing one of the movies, and all are very aspirational in a sense if one was a boxer. Whereas alot of the Whiplash "message" is that "suffering for the art" rather than the aspirational "isnt music just sheer joyousness" - ie its allowed to be fake, but we want the correct kind of fake to enjoy it! For me, Im just happy to see a film with a decent budget made about a drummer (in jazz of all things!) - and I loved the soundtrack and the performances throughout. Im a bit simpler in that regard!
That's my story too.. Watched Whiplash - 8 years later I'm in conservatory
I have watched a few of Mr Edwards' videos and I think this is one of the best. I am very pleased he acknowledged the importance of informed listeners. Of course, a lot of the time, especially in the Jazz worrld, people can exchange being informed for being incredibly arrogant and snobbish. But I have long maintained the view that the value of a piece of music is in large part derived from its sincerity. If you listen to something like "I Will Follow" by U2, it is a good piece of music, not because of the complexity of the chords or rythm (it is obviously very simplistic), but from the sincerity of the performers, especially at the time it was recorded and formed an important part of the band's set.
Thank you for yet another most interesting video !
Be it in the realms of classical or jazz music, I'm still awaiting for any satisfactory movie about music (except from perhaps "Amadeus", and "Between a smile and a tear" but the later is rather in the form of a portrait) I might lack of references, but they all seem to derive from what seems true in regards to the process of becoming and being a musician. Most portraits about jazz or classical composers are either portraying an either sick or abusive caracter, or the scenario is romanced (turns away from music to rather a love story for mercantile reasons) and none seem to emphasize the reasons for which we should even more appreciate and love the music written by these geniuses.
Whiplash, in my sense, describes the process as if transposed from the Stallone-Rocky-scenario where, if you're just in a bad place in life and in need of a pushback, all you have to do is pull yourself together and do some exercise. In this film, the scene where the hands of the drummer is bleeding from the practising whilst his "master" is screaming on the top of his lungs, is utterly pathetic. It goes to cheaply resume "the suffering" (what most viewers have been expecting, since this cliché has been reiterated so many times) into a process representing some weeks, and in the movie itself, just a few minutes. As far as I know, no film director ever embedded, not only the hard work and its consistency, but even less so, all the things that never occured because of the major choises in style of life. This process goes on not for a few months or so, but rather during several decades, from a young persons ago into adulthood, and seeing these candycoated movies about music, this totally tilts towards the idea, that only those who are "born with talent" can engage, and if they do so, the process takes some months to achieve. I'm all ears in case some of you have any recommandations for good movies about music and musicians. (I will see "Around midnight") And, please, do see "Between a smile and a tear". Thanks for the attention.
Thinking about it, there's a double edged sword with the jazz ethos as you describe.
When the individual musician is not hog tied to a composer's comprehensive map, indeed the freedom and democracy of expression, exploring, digging, and finding a way within the context of rules and an ensemble. To shine through and carve that space in the picture.
But that individual musician has to bring to the outside what's inside, if there's to be authenticity in the performance.
That actually can be a problem if the individual is simply uninteresting, shallow, or has very little life experience or sense of shared humanity outside of the commitment to the art.
There's a very obscure film that sort of gets at what I'm trying to say. If you can get your hands on it, the film is worth watching because it was experimental at the time, its from 1961 and its called The Connection. I believe half the actors in the single-setting film were working jazz musicians. They were simply jamming in an apartment while everyone there were waiting for a long expected heroin dealer to show up.
It hit me while watching that film that the relative shallowness of the musicians' lives, who were not really living life they were just stringing along notes until the next opportunity to address their low dopamine condition, were massively limiting factors on where the music could go. As in, to transport, to elevate, to inspire.
So in that sense jazz can be both the most amazing musical experience or the most miserly musical experience, even if in both cases the mastery of the craft is there.
Thank you so much for your acknowledgment of the talent of Ralph Humphrey. I saw him with Don Ellis in the 70's. He was truly an unsung hero.
Have you seen my interview with him?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer No, I haven't. I will definitely check it out.
I actually did have a bass drum smashed over my head once one Tuesday Jazz Night at the Butcher's Arms Skegness back in 1978 after a lacklustre second chorus trumpet solo on Mood Indigo. Funny, I remember thinking it was tuned to D as it came down so maybe I have perfect pitch. I did feel a bit bad at the time admittedly but things were different back then. You couldn't get away with that now cus of Health and Safety or whatever. Having said that it might have done me some good as it really sharpened up my practice schedule and I was in better shape later. Call it Stockholm Syndrome but if I met that guy now I'd probably shake his hand. :)
ONYA. Andy. Good stuff mate.!px
The movie ended up just being about the culture of total work, having an interchangeable lens to see through that could’ve switched between academic jazz, investment banking, law school, or any other field of corporate competitiveness.
Love the video.....what happened aat the end? It just ended suddenly. was that intended? and how come your phone has a standard ringtone? As a prog/jazz musician you really should have a much cooler ringtone....(LOL). Love the video Andy. no worries. Love the lo-fi no-editing style. Here and on your Patreon. And there's something about you not planning the video which makes this almost as a conversation. Riding the wave man...riding the wave....shooting the breeze...and btw I agree that the problem with Whiplash is that it makes Jazz musicians hardasses as if their playing Paganini or a Rachmaninov concerto. It's as if the screenplay was written on a classic violinist or a pianist and they decided to make it more hip by switching to a jazz drummer in NY.
The jazz part of whiplash feels mostly like a skin. Which is still a cool way to include it, but I would like to see a story that’s truly about music making and what it does for life
Is it a 5/4 skin?
The movie is called “the Drummer” I think. Recommended by Peter Erskine from comments in another Whiplash breakdown video. Peter believed this 20 minute, low-budget film did what Whiplash couldn’t by showing exactly what you’re asking for. Whiplash focused on the worst aspects of a budding musician, not the beauty of making music. Hollywood knows people will pay to see a train wreck. I watched The Drummer and that… that is why people sacrifice, have passion and believe in the human connection of music.
Fabulous Baker Boys is a pretty accurate depiction of being a working musician.
I enjoyed keep on keepin on (Clarke Terry) but not a fiction/drama
Mr. Holland’s Opus
My beef with Whiplash was that I didn't buy the motivations of the music professor. You watch the first part of the movie watching him try to wring perfection out of his students. In the second part of the movie, he risks the quality of the whole band's performance to strike out at a student. I didn't believe it.
I didn't buy it either. And the deeper parts, if there were any, were lost on me because I couldn't get past the teacher, who was so far off the reality scale that no school would ever hire this guy and if they did his nose would surely meet up with someone's fist.
I think the main motivation of the music professor in Whiplash (and bullies in general) is to feel superior over others. He’s a tyrant and a sadist. He justifies his behavior by saying he demands perfection.
@@KenNickels I wouldn't be so sure, if the school's reputation and income stream were directly tied to their jazz band as being the best of the best like , oh, let's say, certain american colleges and their football teams, I'm sure they wouldn't have much trouble looking the other way for their star. In actual reality, many schools have turned a blind eye to their cash cow faculty and/or students for far worse antics than throwing musical equipment at people and being curmudgeonly.
Precisely. Sure, the wacky practice scenes and using incorrect jargon bothered me, but the worst part was how horrid the storytelling is.
“We have to ride the wave of the eternal now.”
Beautiful
There's a great 10 episode Japanese Anime titled 'Kids on the Slope' which is about two Japanese kids in the 60s who play jazz. Ones a more experienced self taught jazz drummer, and the other is a classical pianist who is basically told to unlearn the idea of perfection and to loosen up in order to play jazz. The two songs they perform are 'My Favorite Things' And 'Moanin'. Two of the best parts is that there's a lot of performances where it's just the two of them, Piano and Drums, performing. And not to spoil things but I doubt you'd watch it, they're not even aspiring professional musicians nor do they even become that at the end of the story. It was quite simply a story about the love of the music and still the characters took the music very seriously.
Andy - I think everyone knows that you don't plan these videos! 😀 Seriously, I really enjoy the spontaneity of your talks and your enthusiasm for music. In the case of Whiplash, it seemed t o be largely a vehicle for JK Simmons who is a great character actor. Even those of us who are only listeners of music appreciated that some of the elements of it might be exaggerated. Thanks again for these videos. Always enjoy watching them.
Right on dude love your ideas haha
Superb content/ all about why we love unconditionally cheers for posting such great content cheers
The entire movie was phony. From both a musicians perspective, a writers perspective and film aficionado perspective. It's Hollywoood's idea of musical dedication geared to the laymen. It's basically the old "sports coach pushed the young athlete to go beyond his limitations" story. But it isn't reality in the music world. As for the message -- it's bullshit. The teacher sabotages his own concert to humiliate the drummer? An audience doesn't know who messes up. They just know it sounds bad. And then the drummer shows off and THAT is the message? Yeah, right. That's real. The best movie about the music business (written by a musician) is a small indie film called "THE GIG."
Excellent talk.
Round Midnight starring Dexter Gordon was a great jazz film! Agreed, also saw Whiplash and wasn’t into it.
subscribed! where do you live Andy? (if you don't mind my asking)
I had this inner conversation in my early to mid twenty's. I had developed as an artists to the point that older well known musicians were starting to notice me and were asking me to play, but I realized that as a self-taught jazz musician ( very much on the avant-garde side of things) with my own voice, I new I would sacrifice a normal life and financially, and I new it would be constant criticism d examination of every note I played. I just wanted to create, play and hear my music, I was not real interested/driven by performing, i just love sound, music, jazz/blues, so I figured I would choose a profession were I can have a live and a family and play for myself, Only now after over a 25 year hiatus am I looking to perform and record for public consumption. I do not think I regret it, and I am more capable of taken the negativity over something so personal.
I never thought of It as being about jazz or music, it's really about abuse and a culture that allow It to happen.
I feel like It could have been More accurate to change the setting for a movie set, a media in Which this sort of behavior Is highly encouraged.
Also, the red shoes Is a fucking great movie, i need to get myself a copy with a decente máster.
Its a horror movie that takes place in a music school! 😮
@@VinylRundown right! It's about control
Always hidden parodies and symbolic messages in movies as far back as us oldies can remember some Darker than others, another great watch Andy
I’d suggest a subset of the Red Shoes narrative that might be its own genre, which is the obsession/insanity narrative, exemplified best IMO by Altman’s Vincent & Theo. There is no choice in this scenario, the artist is driven to create regardless of the obvious consequences - poverty, social exclusion, loneliness etc.
I am a retired photographer. When I retired I decided to sell fine photographs on the side. Soon enough I decided that I didn't want to bargain with customers over the price so I stopped making photographs for sale. After that I noticed that I didn't care about which images would appeal to others or was], otherwise, marketable. I began making photographs that I wanted to make. It was a revelation.
If I ever would have had a teacher like the one in whiplash I would have left immediately and told him to f*** off !! - Thankfully all my music teachers have been reasonable people who were actually sane.
When he chucked that Zilgian crash at him was very cymbalic, I felt
If I was spending 100k for a music education and the band leader counted off a tune with "6,7,8" I would leave immediately.
I thought that movie was a ridiculous representation of jazz education more than jazz really. A jazz program in a college/university has a hard enough time these days to convince parents to spend tuition money with such a poor chance of having a real income once graduated.
It was a good horror movie character. I don’t believe a real teacher like that would last long in any music program that would like to hold onto or attract new students.
In the sequel he has a drum-off with an evil Aryan-looking Russian super-drummer called Yuri Draggin
@@luciferpantykrist7570 Well that at least makes it fully unbelievable and totally ridiculous. Like no confusing it with reality whatsoever
Very good video overall. :) The 'Red Shoes' comparison illustrates Whiplash's storyline very well, and your assessment of jazz musicians disliking it because it makes jazz look dehumanized rings valid; it's also very colored by the director's feelings and personal experiences.
That said, I strongly disagree with your take on talent, because the presumption that it's all about 'hard work' and 'love' brings the most gifted and amazing of us down to the level of the lowest common denominator. Talent is a real, innate predisposition that is discovered at some point in life (or isn't, unfortunately), and cannot be taught. No matter how hard one works or how interested they may be in the subject, they'll never be able to reach the heights a talented individual can. And level of proficiency in music is objective, not subjective. Of course, talent, in and of itself, needs to be nurtured and tempered by obtaining skill and practicing so it could have any real value. Talent and hard work are not one and the same, but they make a winning combination!
Great video man! Really loved the Simon C references. By the way, when I made my "Red Shoes" album in 1982 I didn't even know about the story you told today. Your observations really hit home with me and I'll be sharing this with my jazzer friends.
Had my own WHIPLASH several yr's ago at an Aebersold Jazz Camp -witnessing one of "mentors" RIP INTO couple young high schoolers!! (ON HIS PHONE all during their performance!)
And if not cruelty, SNOBBERY & CONDESCENSION were pervasive! Prime example was during one of evening showcases by ""mentors", audience reprimanded & instructed HOW TO PROPERLY APPLAUD!! Sheesh...
Yeah, I don't get why there's such a denial that this behavior exists in jazz ed. Not to the point of throwing chairs at people (I hope), but your experience is not unique at all.
@@jaredcook3757 Hi Jared - thanks for affirmation of viewpoint!
Life-long musician here, & as retirement gift to myself, what SHOULD have been very ENJOYABLE experience was disappointment!
What i learned is to recognize the offenders - and not let them sully my LOVE of music!
First of, Andy, thank you for everything you've done. I'm a huge fan of your dissertations.
I feel inspired to share my take.
I’m a Jazz musician and I loved Whiplash. To me, the movie falls into the same category as The Wrestler: A movie about a guy who decides “fuck it, I’m going all in, and I don’t care if it kills me”. Therein lies the drama. It’s not supposed to be an accurate representation of the world of Wrestling (although it looks pretty accurate). The main character is not a role model to follow. The movie isn’t telling the audiences “Look, kids, this is what competitive fighting is all about: Destroy yourselves, neglect your life, your health and your family”. The point of the movie is providing a drama: here’s a person who lost their way, but we relate to them because even though we wouldn’t do what they do, we feel a lot of what they feel and it hurts us to see them do that.
Whiplash is a fascinating drama about the clash of two conflicting forces of nature. One says “I’m a stop you right there”, the other one says “The fuck you are. Go ahead and try”. The Conductor is doing everything in its power to demoralize Niemann. Meanwhile, Niemann is so out of his mind, so obsessed with “winning”, that he rampages through like a freight train going out of control. This clash between these two forces is what makes this a fun movie to watch. It’s also beautifully directed and very well acted. But no, don’t go in there looking for the experience of making music. For something more in that style, I recommend a movie called The Legend of 1900 with Tim Roth. It is the quintessential movie about a man to whom the only thing that matters in life is music, and he too, like Niemann, will take this to the ultimate consequences. Just not quite like Niemann.
People in the harsh noise underground scene who play to 15 people are as bound by social rules as Justin Bieber is. Don't pretend this isn't true.
Some of the most abusive and worst disciplinarians I have encountered in my life have been jazz orchestra conductors.
In primary school, the conductor would THROW chalk board dusters (anything actually) at the drummer. He had no problem kicking people out of his band.
At university, the conductor was so verbally abusive, everyone was scared of that guy. I don't recall a single word of encouragement from that guy.
Towards the end of my stay at the university, some lecturers decided to tell me I cannot play jazz. This happened in multiple meetings meaning they spoke about it and decided this was how they'd approach my career. Not a word about how I could improve, no offers of guidance or private sessions.
One might say, "oh that was just your experience", 1st I was not the only person in those orchestras. 2ndly, I'm just a guy in South Africa. How can a Hollywood film track so closely to my personal journey if others haven't had the same experience?
There are stories of Miles Davis being an absolute horror as a bandleader. The are numerous stories of jazz musicians getting laughed off the stage.
Jazz musicians are incredibly protective of the genre to the point of being absolute arseholes; this is fact! I know it is it.
The behaviours of jazz educators, band leaders etc has NOTHING to do with the structure of the music.
Escalator Over the Hill! Awesome masterpiece!
I discovered Adam Neely through his Whiplash video too.
This is a fascinating, insightful and thought-provoking video, dudemeister, and I really like it, even the crazy ending - ESPECIALLY the crazy ending!! Life happening or wot...?!
Round Midnight's a wonderful film...
☝️😎
Jazz musician here, I love Whiplash
That's not how this works. Pick one!
;)
You raise some interesting points about amateur musicians
I feel there is a divide that is two sides of the coin, yin and yang between entertainment and art.
Entertainment is to release worries and becoming part of a group gives the illusion of personal power by identifying with a hero, angst or not. The earthbound idol take on the negativity freeing the worshipper.
But there is no true freedom without responsibility. And responsibility brings angst and so must seek balance and Soul. The connection that binds us as humans over clans and tribes seeks universals, not the exalted parochial of entertainers.
"Round Midnight" - Dexter Gordon - great jazz film - Dexter actually lived in Europa, and some of the years in "my" country Denmark :D
I didn't know anyone lived on one of Jupiter's moons. 😏
people learn when something is fun, off course there is hard work. Like //But to become a good squash player you need to be able to hit perfect tight length balls and that takes hours of practise and fantastic technique, but it can be fun by playing with mates. I have just started doing my grade 3 classical guitar in my early fitties and I do some scale wok and spider walking but the hardest bit was learning a grade 7 piece of music but now I can play it; I have also been asked to compose a piece of music. these two things combined are very enlightening, hard work but fun and immensely satisfying. It's also about being pushed out of your envelope but understanding that you/me are probably not going to the prodigy, but you can be good and it can be very rewarding. Would I like to be a genius= yes, will I be that Genius= probably not. Can I enjoy playing squash and learning guitar =100% yes. I love them both. and now I feel guilty about wasting my time commenting on your great video. Sorry.
Just watched the abstract Bowie biopic Moonage Daydream. A feast for the eyes, ears and mind. Bowie did go through a sellout period in the 80s, but he decided the money and fame weren't worth it. He must have lost many fans from that era afterwards, and I'm glad he took that chance. Bowie was not a jazz musician, but he did carve a unique path which incorporated several artforms that the film illustrates within its format.
I still think that Tin Machine was sadly unappreciated.
@@scottmcgregor4829 Agree. I saw them in San Francisco a few feet from the band - they had a lot going on.
It's not really about jazz, or even music. It's a psychological study of two characters. I've seen it five times, and I got something extra from it each time. I love it.
Yes, Mark Kermode likens it to a war film.
Haven't seen it, but you might be reading something into it that isn't there. People tend to do that.
I haven't seen it, but I saw Black Swan which I loved even though I understood later that it is not (anymore) an accurate depiction of the world of ballet. The thing is it's fiction, and a creator always has the liberty to say 'what if' and create an interesting story on the basis of that. You can't hit through a snaredrum, but it is easily imaginable that you could. The mistake would be to think this movie says something about the jazz world, but maybe it does say something valuable about 'the human condition'..
Jazz is not a music or an artform, Jazz uses sound (music) to communicate....Jazz is way more than music...it is a consciousness. Jazz is a way of life.
I laughed all the way through the film... I took it as a dark comedy. It was so ridiculous, I just can't imagine anyone taking it seriously. I really don't imagine anyone could... especially jazz musicians. That being said, within that context of "Dark Comedy" I thought it was absolutely brilliant. Loved the film..
What do Jazz musicians think of Blue Giant? I thought it was a pretty great movie.
Great points.
"round midnite" is a great jazz film. "you have to have a lot of heart to do this job" sic. Dexter Gordon If you look at Dex, the old vids in Holland, Denmark, you see he wasn't "playing himself" in the movie, he had his shit pretty well together, at least on stage, but watching him "act" you see he doesn't have to fake it. From what he observed in Bud Powell, others, himself, He experienced the same alienation, as the ultimate "foreigner", American black jazz musician in Europe, the sense of loss an exile feels, the kind of madness that comes with obsession with music and the demands the art and the job makes on you, working clubs, day in, day out.
If the Little Match Girl doesn't make you cry you have no soul.
Spot on Andy. My initial (gut) reaction to Whiplash was "NO! this is definitely not the way. This is intolerable." I'll go further and say that "Whiplash" does not portray reality.
I was spellbound for the entire 30+ minutes of your video. Excellent!
I don’t hate it. As a cautionary tale, I consider it a great illustration of the horror of narcissistic abuse and the susceptibility of students to the same. A drummer friend states succinctly, “it’s not about jazz drumming.”
Musically, I enjoy it for the illustration of intensity of commitment, albeit not completely accurate, that I've known, been in the dusty halls of, and have seen in the folks that most inspire me. I believe most inherent natural talent is squandered or ignored. Benefactors certainly help. Most people, even the most appreciative, seem to underestimate the love and work involved… I may need to revisit the story of the Red Shoes and other films you mention. Thanks for that.
Great points on the Cinderella story. The self-limiting belief and racism of, "they play so naturally*,” that denies the sacrifice of the practitioners and progenitors of the culture and art form, arguably the greatest American export, needs much wider understanding. (And of course the movie features a white male mentor and a white male student, which _could_ be okay…) Thanks for calling it out!
It’s a great film for discussion for sure. Is it flawed in that the viewer can reach so many conclusions about what they’ve seen? That may be on the filmmakers. I’d like to hear from them speaking in retrospect.
Fwiw, the truly elite jazz musicians don’t play king of the mountain. They don’t need or want to. It’s anathema to the love behind, “You’ve gotta be willing to die with the motherf*cker.”
Subscribed.
Kind regards,
Daniel 🤙
(*Quoting a dear relative of a different time, walking through the Smithsonian piano exhibit, now many years ago.)
Paraphrasing Gil Scott-Heron, 'Enjoy yourself while you're here, because if you aren't then no one else will enjoy you being here either.'
The most ridiculous notion in Whiplash is that the big band is a happening thing, not the very occasional festival or Off-night Monday project. There is absolutely no market for big band jazz. None.
Except for that 15% of my income and my sold out crowds, yeah. Is it niche? Absolutely. Is it marketable? Yes, with skill.
Is Whiplash really about jazz, or does it use jazz as a context to explore the psyche of an individual, particularly sanctimonious powerlust partly expressed as sadism. The story could easily be set in an athletics club.
Exactly correct. Whiplash is about an abusive relationship. Period.. The mechanics of abusive relationships are separate from the type of relationship. Jazz school is just the backdrop for color. The film could have just as well been about writers, doctors, a married couple or any persuit in which people take their role seriously. Thats why the filmakers didnt consider it relevant to know anything about why anyone loves jazz, other than the fact that it looks impressive and cool. Its like a film about mental illness that features beautiful landscapes. NOT about meadows and mountains!
It could also be set in an academic science lab....
Simon's teacher felt he was a failure. Getting older meant he had fewer chances and less time to share in a student's greatness. The fact that (apparent;y) his favorite "project" ended up dying just drove him harder.
Yeah it reminds me of when people got mad at the jazz representation in Soul, ITS NOT A JAZZ MOVIE
I'm merely suggesting that a "directors cut" in which the drummer hurls the cymbal BACK at Mr.Dictator would be more satisfying: preferably with at least some blood spilled... if one throws a cymbal at my head, expect retribution, lol...
You hit on the other issue around 24:00, in that this attempts to conform all humanity of an ensemble under the iron fist of a band-leader following THE SCORE is not what anyone who ever had to reach charts of a song on-the-spot would say was typical...
Two things odd about the movie: the Charlie Parker/Cymbal story you cite is the big one. A lot of people seem to want to blame the writers, but I think the character is the one making the mistake. He took it to be a threat, not a "gong show' prop.
But the other theme that is present is that of originality. The teacher seems to be chastising the student to be more original. Okay, that never works. You can try to open up the student to other possibilities ("Hey check out what this cat is doing here..."), but eventually, the student has to synthesize it for themselves. When the student finally does take an 'original' solo (towards the end of the movie), it is almost a note-for-note transcription of a later Buddy Rich solo. And that you can blame on the writers/directors...
I agree though, that it wasn't really about music making.
Whiplash may have sunk without trace without the sheer virtuosity of JK Simmons incredible performance... Think he was awarded an Oscar ?!!
This was so insightful: a view of improvisational jazz as a metaphor for liberal democracy, for "love, equality, freedom," and for the negotiation, rules, and guidelines that are needed to make it work, and for people to create together. And how it differs from classical music in this way. Fantastic video.
people probably don't like the movie because the drummer doesn't learn the rudiments of putting a bass drum over the head of a drum teacher, lol
23 minutes in he finally gets to the freakin point!! If you like rambling talk, give this a listen. Never use 78 words when one will do.
Thank you for that. I try do make wider cultural observations rather than just answer the questions. But those of you who don't like long rambling videos the answer 'because it's not realistic'
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Understood. I guess my attention span has shortened these days. It is of course Hollywood and as you know, things are embellished at times. One of the things I did like about the movie was that they didn’t slap a happy ending on it. He didn’t get the girl at the end of the movie. So many times nowadays, writers find it necessary to leave people feeling good when they finish the movie. This one didn’t feel the need to do that, the girl had moved on, and he lost out. That’s life sometimes.
Snow White and the 7 Dwarfes has the Queen Damcing to Death in Red Hot Shoes. Is there a Fairytale whit the similar Fate for one of the Leading Characters?
round midnight is a awesome,poignant movie,as you know the house band is mclaughlin,hancock etc sweet and lowdown is also very good,sean penn as jazz guitarist, who is jealous of django
I am a Jazz musician, I hate Whiplash, you explained it right, well done.
I am a whip maker who hates jazz AND movies
@@luciferpantykrist7570 I will not take away your believe that you are funny.
Job well done. "Round Midnight., as you mentioned, Paris Blues & All Night Long (1962) best Jazz flicks of all time Boss. Mo' Better Blues, despite having Jazz great Jeff Tain Watts in it, didn't have enough music in it !!
Just love the passion in this video - but I think passion is the one word that's missing from your argument. Maybe you're moving towards it with your analysis of "love" in the process. But talent = the hard work you mention + passion.
If you really love music the work is not hard
Wasn’t Flashdance exploring the same all-or-nothing to the road to success theme? Perhaps the school in Fame also.
I play Rock music and that movie always put my teeth on edge.
the drum teacher in whiplash reminds me of my old drama teacher.i learned so much from him,great teacher,but he could be really snappy sometimes,gay,alchoholic and a bit cantankerous,if he thought people werent pulling their weight,he had no qualms about letting them know,one day,one of the girls was 5 mins late for class.he said to her,so you want to be a actress,i wouldnt even let you sweep the fucking stage,of course she broke down in tears,but ultimately it was his teachings that got her into drama school.he wasnt quite as bad as the whiplash guy,yes john could be brutal,but he wasnt allways like that,and was responsible for getting many of his students into theatre schools,drama schools
Sudden finish … ?! Anyhoo - the true tortured artist story is Beethoven - when he realised his deafness was encroaching he really wanted to kill himself - but - as he wrote in a famous letter - he didn’t because he wanted to gift the world more of his genius despite the personal pain - I choke up every time just thinking about it !
At my level, I'm happy to play for free, but I do expect to be paid for hauling and setting up all the gear needed for an amplified live performance.
Isn't being part of a jazz orchestra and playing to a score very different than playing improvisationally ? Isn't the former much closer formally to classical music than the latter ? I LOVED your insight that jazz is the expression of liberal democracy, within a rules-based framework, aroising in a cultural context straining for it. Very deep, rings true.
the "audience lock-in" you describe around 15:00 occurs
1) early on, in small scenes too
2) as a result of some social meaning of the music/art it's centered around.
I had a decade touring constantly as a psychedelic trance producer reproducing my productions on rave-parties in over 55 countries. The precise sub-style and flavor I launched with is what people expected years later and were angry not to get. Artistic evolution is often not accepted even in avante-garde weirdo specialized musical scenes. The social meaning of the music is as a sort of community organizing principle, and deviating from this undermines peoples social constructs
I "found" jazz in 1967-1970 when most jazz musicians were relocating to Europe for jobs. I was very fortunate to live not far from the Newport Jazz Festival and also when Max Roach, Archie Shepp and Reggie Workman, three legendary players, were hired by the University of Massachusetts when I was an undergrad in 1971. I had a lot of early exposure to Jazz. And I managed to speak with a few musicians. Jazz players, even free jazz players, ALL tell a story, but it is new story every time. It's phenomenally creative.
Bien Andy!
Being an engineer, being a scientist can be as obsessive and personality consuming as being an artist. The only difference. engineers are in average better paid than musicians and thus can maintain a family life in parallel. It boils down to economics.
So, were you rushing or dragging?
Excellent.
She wasn’t a jazz musician - but I had a clarinet teacher who was a whiplash. My family noticed it on the final weeks to my recital and feared for my health and sanity. (Which explains why today I play Flute and refuse to teach Clarinet-even tho I can). Unbelievably- even knocking on her door for the lesson enraged her!!!!!