Welcome to America, mate, where no one listens, but simply waits for their turn to talk. I enjoy your channel. I’m a drummer like you, but I’m new to jazz. It’s been very educational. And since I’m new, I do think everyone sounds the same, which made made me an Elvin Jones fan. Cheers.
RIght? They couldn’t even get through the opening statement before going off on a judgemental tangent. I’m new to jazz and Andy has been a very helpful resource in my growing appreciation of the art form.
Elvin's a great introduction to digging into the individual voice of jazz drumming. Be attentive to how he played around with placing the kick and hi hat foot in relation to the groove. Understanding then breaking molds is always a great thing.
@@Simon.the.Likeable I have recently gone back to his work with Albert Ayler and I'm hearing stuff I did not hear when I was younger. That might be because my appreciation of early jazz and it's mysterious roots are better known to me now. Perhaps my top ten greatest free jazz drummers video should be made. For me it would be Ronald Shannon Jackson....
Andy you touched their sacred cow. They're the same with modern rock/classic rock and country lovers. . They are like Rolling Stone editors. It becomes harder to stand out when music has become a hybrid of a hybrid of a hybrid.
This has been a textbook case of humility vs pride. Good work Andy! Proverbs 11:2 - When arrogance comes, disgrace follows, but with humility comes wisdom.
I think a more interesting discussion is not whether or not quality novelty/creativity has stalled (it has) but what are the causes. I believe there are numerous factors. Firstly is spiritually decay. A bad tree cannot create good fruit. Then there are the institutional factors you have discussed (educational and economic). There are also numerous technological influences. I think the effects of audio recording cannot be underestimated. I also ponder if there is simply a limited musical potential and that a point of diminishing returns has been reached. Anyway, perhaps operating from a point of not if but why would be good.
@@FaithLikeAMustardSeedThe possession of music is another factor Andy touched on. Used to be that a tune could be played by anyone however they like. I guess it goes hand-in-hand with recording and business. Without sales involved there was no squabble. A band would have to perform to hear a song, so it was unique everytime! And it wasn't studio perfect and replayable to anal-yze it to death. Now it's like some kind of idolatry of some "perfection" that makes people snobs.
@@Undecieved Another thought: "What makes a Song Great"? I think Andy is right about it being the message (relatable and moving). What message is there today? Nothing with much real substance. At least not that gets any traction. Mostly just posers!
England and America. Seperated by a common language. Edwards presents an argument which has an arc and a dialectic. These two speak in 10'second goldfish soundbites.
Fact is, Gregory Hutchinson is saying much of what you’re saying about the scene today, and these cats wouldn’t dare question it. Love your honesty and openness and I’m sure it has been key in acquiring the info you share. Keep it up! Killer channel.
It is sad to see them avoid every one of your points. Whats more, they seemed to tangentially wander wherever their own biases would take them. The worst offense is that they completely neglected to see that you were structuring your talk towards a conclusion. I did a masters in jazz here in the US and this was the exact type of dogmatic “jazz attitude” that turned me away from the whole scene. Your core point that the cultural zeitgeist in art is moving away from the individual and towards a homogeneous unity is very prevalent worldwide. This phenomenon is part and parcel of a larger natural progression of society. The increasingly sprawling and technologically integrated aspects of society explain a cause, but don’t offer a viable solution (or any direction). It seems that discussing this phenomenon is the best we can do for now. What we are currently left with is a threatening environment for innovative artists because they lack a tenable platform/community to grow their ideas. Keep up the good work, love the channel!
I've watched open studio for a while and learned a lot of theory and practice methodology... and your explanation of their dodgy biased "arguments" is on point. While I do agree with some of their dogma and love their videos this was a vulgar display of weird one-sidedness haha.
@@ornettebreaker There is nothing wrong in wanting to play in an orthodox jazz style, and their videos are a great resource. But with the orthodoxy comes a certain viewpoint which can only come from viewing the world from within an orthodoxy.
I'd go so far as to say that the jazz academia issue was likely the primary motivator for their vid, and an attempt to undermine & disqualify Andy and his channel
Trevor Crawford, I salute you. Very very well said. You have in one paragraph articulated what is going/ has gone wrong with the life of us humans "a larger natural progression of society", the innocent by standers; the other living organisms are victims of the collateral damage.
The moment it was obvious they were treating your comments as if you have an inflexible stance, my BS meter was going off. It seems they are more eager to appear correct, or superior, than in discussing the topic earnestly
As Frank Zappa eloquently put it " a mind is like a parachute if its closed it wont work." My own take on it is that we are all individuals and as such we tend to gravitate to the things we personally like. This can then translate into a blanket form of sorting out the things we dont like and labelling them as boring or all sounding the same. As a musician from the 60s I used to love blues but now they all sound the same because they are using the same old noodling which for me means heavy boredom. Same goes for heavy metal once I hear the doom laden fuzz I switch off unless its Terje Rypdal. However if its a live performance it can have the opposite effect. So it is subjective and musicians will always listen in a different way to none musicians. By the way there are awesome Jazz musicians in China, Japan, Russia and South Korea. Traditional African Jazz is also awesome especially with a live performance I am thinking of bands in South Africa. The only Jazz I really do not like at all is "Dinner Jazz" which in my book is fit only for the vomitorium. Oddly enough Barney Kessel and the great guitars is a tour de force, same goes for Django and Stephan Grappelli they could be framed as exponents of the dreaded "Dinner Jazz" but that is how they started. To put this all into perspective. One of Frank Zappas band members played a big Sax break I think it was on Jazz from Hell and that Sax break and the dude who was playing it won Sax player of the year. It was only after he collected the award from some big noise Jazz forum that it was revealed that he had no idea how to play a Sax. It was just done when a fellow band member handed this none Sax player a Sax so he just sucked and blowed with his hands holding the thing rather than pressing the buttons. Thus the truth of the fact that the Sax really is the ill wind that no one blows any good. Ultimately Jazz is not dead it just smells funny.
hating on the same thing together is super fun and is how a lot of friendships are made, i doubt Peter will have the same argument when he's not doing this with Adam, and picking on the accent is really low move
Thanks for the vid Andy, your point still stands.. these two dudes just seem very defensive and contrarian for the sake of being contrarian without really strengthening their arguments.
It takes a significant degree of insight to be aware of one’s personal biases, and a great degree of genuine humility to attempt to actually understand another person’s viewpoint without the automatic surface level attempts at ‘nullification’ we all tend to do. To a casual jazz fan as I consider myself- the concept that the art form has been officially codified etc and the various unintended consequences of that are observable as Andy has discussed is a valid observation To automatically negate this is at worst disingenuous and at best very short sighted
If Jazz wasn't atrophying I would wonder why? Most categories of artforms do. To say this exists seems self evident to me. Educators will not let the young in unless they follow the strict rules they have identified as defining jazz. My argument is to allow them in by stopping doing that, in simple terms, stop teaching how to play the changes of pop songs from 90 years ago. But to a modern jazz educator that proposition sounds preposterous
Really nice reaction, Andy. I had a feeling you’d address this with respect, even though that respect was not shown to you, and you didn’t disappoint. 😁 I’m with you…everything they said is fair (whether I agree with it or not) *expect* the shot at your accent. That was over the line and honestly really pissed me off. I’ve been watching their channel way longer than I’ve been watching yours. I love their channel. But that? That made me want to never visit it again. Those two usually come off as kind and chill, but that just really had dismissing vibes that reeked of “Jazz Elitism.” Like “this guy can’t even say Jaco right, what could he know?!” Forgive me French, but fuck that. I expect an apology from them on that one or I will not be buying any more of their content.
@@bodhibeats8257 Thanks for your support over there. It was appreciated. I found the whole video quite entertaining because I saw your support straight away and knew I hadn't been pushing a postion that no one agreed with. Thanks again
Great rebuttal Andy. You do an excellent job of staying true to the core of the argument while addressing the topics of discussion in your videos and it shines here as you respond to the Open Studio cats. I also dig those guys and look forward to you guys getting in a room together. I think you all being in person would change the dynamic of the response and an insightful discussion would transpire!
The vibe of their comments seemed to be very much in the how-dare-you-camp where they were determined to hear whatever they needed to allow them to gatekeep who's allowed to discuss the topic and who isn't, who has a legit point of view and who doesn't.
I found it a bit nuts that they just started talking about age. That's where I just couldn't be bothered to listen anymore tbh. I like the way you do things. That, and there are literally no fellow Brummie area natives talking about jazz on UA-cam lol.
I like Adam & Peter's channel quite a bit and find them good chaps, but Andy has the greater intellectual and persuasive depth in this exchange hands down.
Nice one, Andy! I watched their reaction first not realising you'd be showing it again here, so now the windmills of my mind have fallen off. I do hope all three of you hook up for a live chat. Cheers, Ian
Next I will do a reaction to my reaction to their reaction. Eventually my channel will become an infinite regression of entropic reactions before I snap out of it with a good solid video covering my top ten favourite drum introductions, thus restoring much needed order to the universe. At least that is my intention
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer As a non-jazz, debatable-musician, I did come up with a jazz count off: Tractor one, tractor two, tractor three...etc. Solid, but possibly more a hindrance than a help, and I've never actually tried it. But then, it could be a game changer - I'm sure you'd know. Cheers, Ian
As others have said, it seems like you struck some sort of nerve and their ego's can't bear it. I'm surprised about their judgmental attitude after mere minutes of your video. They are very fixated on you as a person (e.g. how good your connections are, whether you can appreciate the music properly, ...) instead of actually adressing any points that are made.
Andy, you should ask those guys to join the discussion with you on a live stream or in a video on both channels.... I suspect you will find you all have common ground.
Andy, you have stated your case based on wisdom, knowledge, humble opinions and historical analysis - not feelings. Brilliant job. Jazz is Dead, so what is the big deal? Something new will emerge, as always. Jazz, like classical music, has become academic and dogmatic and rigid. What the fuck am I going to with a degree from NYU in jazz studies. Just play the music. Enjoy yourself. As Charlie Parker said, "First you learn the instrument, then learn the music, then you forget all that shit, and just play." Wynton Marsalis Sucks.......
Great videos, Andy. I like the point you made. They were definitely triggered. I remembered the clickbait title. It got me to click, but then I listened. Their manner of listening was so different from mine (granted I was listening while driving on an extended road trip, not endlessly slicing up the continuity of your video almost on a "lick by lick" basis). I do agree, though, the two of them comprise good pool of Jazz knowledge and it would be great to see you have a real time discussion with them. I'd look forward to seeing that. Regard
My formula for a UA-cam video: 1) create a title and thumbnail that makes people want to click. 2) Assure them at the start that the video will deliver on the promise of the title 3) Deliver on the title 4) Then go beyond the expectations of the viewer. If you get that right the video should do well.
What's funny to me about this whole thing is that I think you do a lot of videos including more esoteric content and complex discussions, but here I think you're making a simple point that can easily get taken out of context because it's such a sensitive topic. There is no doubt about the music industry and culture changing the way music is produced and consumed. One thing that is fading in Jazz is the idea of the individual's voice, and I think that is a sad thing to witness, and I think that is very distinct from Pop and Alternative Rock. Thanks, Andy!
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I think the sensitivity has to do with the point that you've previously made about this "elitist" thinking in the world of jazz music, which of course doesn't apply to everyone working in jazz, but definitely some musicians and consumers alike. "That's not real jazz, I'll show you what real jazz is!" That sort of thinking. Thanks for provoking thought with these discussions! Like you say, at the end of the day, it's just music, we're just having fun. I'd love to see you on with those two guys for a more in-depth discussion and debate!
My rant as a boomer in response to just the first part where they fail to grock Andy's humor. The younger generations have no sense of humor. This is a big social shift that has occurred and it's influence on the arts is profound. I see it everywhere in both the creation, consumption and analysis of art and popular entertainment by millennials and Z. Young people reduce everything to a simple 10th grade level of analysis and lack analytical acuity beyond looking for the most obvious "message". it drives me crazy. End rant. Andy speaks for me.
I am familiar with the “Open Studio” TY channel. These discussions about level of difficulty, chops, sounding like (pick a musician), focusing more on what is being played and how it’s being played more than the song (musical piece) itself. This explains why Jazz has the reputation for being an art form in which musicians are playing for and trying to impress other musicians. The masses of listeners have never gravitated to the complex. Miles Davis’ “Kind of Blue” album was groundbreaking. The entire album was pure jazz and completely relatable with great improvisation where the musicians used their skills to enhance the most essential element: the song. I recently found your channel a couple of days ago. Good stuff.
It's a simple flaw of the reaction format video that it's based on reacting to a video as it plays. It is not a response to an argument that takes the span of a video to make a case. I think you're correct that they spent the bulk of the video reacting to what they thought you were going to say, with no knowledge of the actual content of the video and followups.
I've enjoyed and learned from this channel as well as YHI, and I really hope that this interaction leads to more understanding, learning and appreciation of jazz. It's very easy to sit back and watch the video and check your own reaction boxes: "Wrong", "No", "What?", "Maybe", "OK", etc. and then add them up and cast a final judgment (Tolerate, Cancel, etc.), and maybe very satisfying, but I think that there's a lot more to be gained by going deeper and going through the arguments, right or wrong, and looking for subtlety and nuance, and possibly finding something new and interesting. I'm not taking sides here - I would really like to hear more about this from both Andy and Adam and Peter.
Esperanza Spalding is unique and her music is constantly evolving. She is continuing the old school jazz tradition of experimenting and creating her own unique style. I'm sure you heard of her, but if you didn't get deeper into her music, do so.
Spalding was at Pori Jazz 2017, it was great! It would be good to throw a few original names who are not sounding like everyone else. I think this observation is in general, "most of contemporary jazz" is not "all of jazz nowadays"
Those guys are despicable. Their narcissism means in their minds and attitudes that they must be better than you in everyway and therefore everything you say must be wrong. You must have really struck a nerve for them to even make that video! Ego defense and denial.
I watched that video all the way through, something they didn't have the courtesy to do with your video. I thought their video was very poor. They were more interested in the sounds of their own voices than in listening to your argument. The guy with the cap was particularly annoying.
Great video, Andy. I do tend to find that reaction videos as a whole can tend to cancel (not totally cancel) the nuances of the original by the reactees stopping the first video halfway through a point being made. I've seen it time and again on many different subjects. I'm not saying they did it all the time. There were plenty of times they ran your video on to get to a point. By stopping and starting too often the subtlety and the argument's thread can be lost. Sadly they did seem quite suspicious of who you were, where you came from and what you know, talking about biases and algorithms without acknowledging their own. It came across as quite condescending; a bit 'gatekeepery' to be honest. As I was watching I thought that it would be better if you all discussed this live. It was nice to see that proposed towards the end. I think it would be a great discussion.
This is one of the issues with “the creator market.” Two guys who don’t know how to listen and follow arguments. And yet they have a platform to speak with authority about a history they know nothing about
Some of this is what makes it difficult for me to get into jazz, the somewhat pompousness and arrogance. I mostly listen to metal, speed metal, neoclassical, death metal, classic rock, classical, and even serialism. So I'm familiar with Ron Jarzombek Shawn Lane, Allan Holdsworth etc, as well as I love Milton Babbitt and Schoenberg. However, I cant stand alot of traditional jazz including Coltrane the melodies sound goofy to me. I also cant stand horns, I know, blasphemy. I respect that stuff and try to learn from it, but the people that worship it are so arrogant it really turns me off from it as well, I avoided university for music after auditioning and being accepted due to the vibe of the course, the instructors and the other students I've met at local jams, I just dont jive with it, probably because I love death metal and rock and despise everything hipster especially indie music.
Nothing is as overrated and hyped as guitar. Stringed instruments are world wide, and always only a few on any instrument worth listening to. There are no more great guitarists as sax or trumpet players, and that includes classical flamenco blues and others. Piano probably the greatest instrument and drums foundational. I can makes lists of about 20 on any instrument and after that just minor derivatives.
Andy-listen to both your and the Hear gents and have learned from all - this discourse is a nexus of ideas which is worthwhile Arranging a meeting to talk this on your or their show would be fun - and further the educational part of your shows
They seem to be nitpicking what you said more than providing an argument on why they disagree. Music is subjective so whatever your opinion it is correct. Correcting the Jacko pronunciation is just immature and pointless. You’re obviously from a different country than them! I’m sure not going to check out their channel because they seem preoccupied with criticizing your content rather than having a discussion. I hope that this at least makes viewers curious enough to check out your channel. You have a point of view that I believe would resonate with a lot of musicians and music lovers.
It seems "Adam & Peter" are just "jazz-nerds" (or maybe "music-nerds") while Andy Edwards' horizon seems much wider. Take the subject "jazz" or "music (in general)" away and they proably do not have much to offer except making childish jokes about accents etc.. Certainly no class. Proably they felt offended by the argumentation of Andy Edwards that jazz is not innovative as it used to be 50 years ago. On this channel Andy Edwards did a video about "Jazz-snobs". "Adam & Peter" could fit that category - well, "sort of" 🙂
There are things you can learn and others you can only get in doing or living them. Personality grows with experience. "What you wonna play, if you have nothing to say?" Joop Christoffer, a Dutch bassplayer out of the '50s. Jazz is (maybe not anymore) not only a music style, but a a life style. 55:46
Fun meta analysis here. Would love to see the three of you discuss/debate in real time rather than react to one another. They do seem a bit triggered by the title of your video, which sets the general ‘straw man’ tone for their rebuttal to all the points you made in that original video. What I like about all three of you is your unequivocal passion for music, jazz particularly.
I was taught that the biggest sin was in believing other people when they call you a "jazz musician", because it puts you in a box, and that's not what "jazz" is all about.
I’d love to see a good faith discussion in real time between yourself and these two guys. Back and forth written or recorded responses always seem to lead to confusion and misinterpretation.
After listening and before reacting to your reaction reaction, I listened to your reaction of Rick Beato and great songs. That video was definitely more fun to listen to. These guys, I forget their names, might like to give that one a listen, too. Also, I would never tease someone about their accent. But sometimes the UA-cam CC button is accidently left on (not because I need it, mind you) which leads to some interesting results. In case you're curious, "boomer view" became "boobs of you". Keep up the good work!
I don’t think you should respond to these guys should they make a reaction video to your reaction. They know their shit professionally but people who are on that level that they make comments about your accent are just not worth an answer.
Andy is exploring ideas in a measured and thoughtful way with the usual professorial insight (minus glasses on the end of the nose). These guys are talking like they're on some sort of UA-cam channel or something...😉
Yeah, for anyone paying attention its impossible to not notice the difference in delivery and flow of argument. Too many UA-camrs will glide right through poorly reasoned arguments, or torturously repeating the same points to make the vid longer than necessary, simply by hitting the right emotional notes in delivery. Sprinkled with zingers that they know will get the commenters/watchers on board with them. I'm not saying these guys are completely uninformed or 100% relying on delivery style to hit the mark, but how can I say it ... there's a little too much Kenny G interspersed among the more substantial moments in their conversational jazz ; )
Listen to Latin Jazz. Paquito d'Rivera and Gonzalo Rubalcaba have both the chops and deep understanding. A Caribbean blues"clave" feel with Euro classical technique
Interesting! I’m a fan of both your channels. I agree it wasn’t a great reaction on their part, they weren’t really listening to your points. It sounds to me though like your point just applies to music industry as a whole, right? There’s not as much innovation in general anymore because there’s no money to be made by trying to innovate! This is Rick Beato’s main point and I agree with it: the problem isn’t that there’s a lack of amazing and creative musicians out there, it’s just not in the mainstream anymore compared to the 1970s. So while I agree with you I’m not sure it’s useful to limit this argument to jazz. Thanks for the video!
It is so sad... You are trying to have intelligent conversations about music and then a bunch of nincompoops, desperate for some attention, are jumping on the (or try to create their own) bandwagon of not listening, because of that simply not understanding what you talk about, putting words in your mouth, kind of `oh, I feel so offended by this person´ sentiment... It's tiresome. I play music. I listen to it - a lot. And ... whether we like it or not; there are a lot of very talented musicians out there, doing their own discovery. Which is great! I love it, I really do! But... Anyone denying that many of those talented people do sound a lot like the people on whose shoulders they're standing (sometimes without knowing) is simply not paying attention. And! Even worse... If they are a musician... They are not listening... At all. Wasn't it Bob Marley who sang that if you don't know your past, you can't know your future? Continue with your rants, your thoughts. Voice your opinions, please! They are helping me to be a better musician. (and I bet I'm not the only one ^_^ )
I'm with you Edward! Totally true what you're saying. To me the they sounds like Talibans of jazz and very arrogant. They did not get your point. Keep on doing what you're doing!
A proposition: perhaps looking at who of the all-time great Jazz musicians were/are self-taught might help here. Jaco Pastorius and Wes Montgomery come to my mind, but there will be loads of other examples. My intuition is that being self-taught leaves you more open for new musical approaches, but that assesment needs proper data to back it up (musicology PhD thesis lurking). Certainly, thouroghly trained musicians out of academia get more gigs, particularly in the almost cut-throat competitive business which the music industry has become - in my experience.
What I would have like to see is you hosting a program with them as guests and discussing the issue in real time. I think the "virtual shield/wall" doesn't serve nuanced discussion or debate well. I think there are too many dimensions through which missed-undertstanding can take place. In real time people tend to police themselves better for the sake of the mutual endeavor.
There's so much I want to say on this but I don't want it to end up being a massive screed, so I'll try to keep things brief. First, I'm a big fan of the You'll Hear it channel. These guys obviously know their stuff and their videos are usually very informative but I think they really dropped the ball on this one. They don't really address the points and, as Andy says, seem more triggered by the title than anything else. The pronunciation dig is particularly petty. That being said, when you make a lot of videos, it is inevitable that there is going to be a duffer every now and again. Second, when people are arguing on the internet there is a lot of confusion, deliberate or accidental, about trends and individual cases. The existence of cases on the edges of the bell shaped curve doesn't tell you anything about what is going on in the centre. Saying that one is a representation of the other is a common error or misdirect. It seems to me that Andy is saying that in Jazz, the general trend used to be that distinction was made via the musician's "voice" whereas now the general trend is that distinction is made through virtuosity within a codified framework. That Peter and Adam at one point say that having a voice is the equivalent of being a virtuoso shows how they aren't really listening to where Andy is coming from. Billie Holiday has a distinctive voice and is an incredible artist but she is not virtuosic. Ella Fitzgerald has a distinctive voice, is an incredible artist and is virtuosic. You could find similar cases for every instrument. Third, the elephant in the room is standardisation through education. It is the academisation of Jazz education which has led to the high standard of playing that is practically taken as a given for modern musicians these days. However, that high standard has inevitably led to a standardisation of technique and sound and a general reticence to step away from the norm. Those who do, either voluntarily step away from the Jazz label or are gatekept out of it. Peter and Adam are heavily invested in Jazz education, particularly through their online education portal Open Studio, so I'm sure they have had to fight this battle before. Fourth, Jazz is in a difficult situation in that since the 1970s two of its defining characteristics, innovation and improvisation, have increasingly been coming into conflict with the cultural baggage of its tradition. The Black American Music project is possibly the most extreme crystallisation of this tension.
They cut the video off at the point where I critique Jazz education in the Academy. In the end these videos are for entertainment purposes only, and we are trying to get people watching. I hope it's interesting for people who are drawn in by a click baity title and they go away with something more than just watching a slinging match. I have never done one of these before but I was attracted to the idea of critiqueing the critique, and in a way I'm putting my own discussion under scrutiny. In the end it's not life and death and I have great respect for them as musicians and UA-camrs
I have been told literally hundreds of artists I should check out. No one is listening to the same stuff! Surely back in the day the same question would have thrown up Coltrane, Dolphy and Ornette. And if we just take those three. Are the sax players around today really as different as those three players are?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I actually agree with most of your points, in the same "sort of"-way you do. I also think Wynton Marsalis and his notion of "jazz classicism" is close to the root of the problem with many kinds of modern jazz. I have also been excited to see young contemporary artists create their own strange kinds of fusion with hip-hop and latin etc. and actually manage to filll concert venues with young people grooving to the rhythms. The senescent to outright old jazz audiences I see far too often are a dead giveaway that it smells funny at least. But people who manage to get young people hooked while us graybeards still appreciate it must be onto something.
Andy, I very much appreciate and respect the way you Thoughtfully address this phenomenon of musical homogenization, an ambient trait of the current (western) culture we live in, from art , jazz, pop, to airports and media , it seem depressingly unescapable sometimes. It´s funny though to see these guys defensivness, not caring to elaborate or at least match the weight of your insight efforts and enrich the debate with better arguments. At least here they sound to me a little bit like republicans of jazz. They seem to not register that as much as they created a positive and nice jazz education platform, they also add to the overwhelming amount of "jazz tutorials" type of YT channels, and may contribute to opaque the intimate - introspective process of becoming a jazz musician, or an artist in general, propagating template style over personality. In the past you had to "earn" learning something aurally, by listening , emulating it, or at the bandstand. Perhaps the analog imperfection and intimate locality of this process helped to generate a richer variety of voices among aspiring artists. Now you have an avalanche of channels teaching you "jazz devices", in which the meaning , the culture, the origin has been subtracted. The medium has become the message, and i think in the end this might take the spiritual element out from the art. Not surprisingly, Keith Jarrett himself has admitted to be a conscience objector to the internet. Please do keep your insights and channel going on, it´s vital to have these kind of discussion on our autopilot culture.
I saw their thing yesterday, I defended your post, that they have time to dis your post, it also seemed they made a comment pertaining to your accent, that replied without much negative to me……I’ve seen good info, review from them….
I’m with Andy on this one. I signed up to open whatever it’s called as it’s got good music content. But their response on this chat was plain boring… snobbish, holier than thou, kids crap.
Typical of today's media, closed minds. They take every word too specifically, no idea of the real meaning in the context of the sentence and subject. Taking it too literally, it's not the written word, it's a conversation. That's a big difference in UK language and American. I've noticed that over the last few years, especially since the arrival of the www, this aspect is creeping into UK particularly in the media. A particular word should be taken in the context of the complete sentence and subject, not literally. When it's taken literally, that's when the misunderstanding takes place. They aren't actively listening, they are only listening to what they want to hear, words that they pick out and taking it out of context. Is that also how they listen to music, probably, most people do. People who really actively listen to music, hear things in a different way and take things in, they hear the music. Most don't, they hear a noise and go I don't like that crap. They don't hear the music, they have closed minds. Frank Zappa talked about this a lot during his life and of course, he was correct. They haven't listened. They also talk as if they know more, they are correct, they know more than anybody else, they are correct and everyone else is wrong. It's all just a view point, an opinion. It's music, so it's subjective, nobody can be right or wrong, it's only opinion. Personally, I'd sooner listen to how you talk about music with an open view, then theirs.
The irony Andy is that you admitted your title was 'Click bait' and they are reacting to your click bait title. They are creating a click bait title of their own by reacting to your click bait title. The best thing to do is ignore them and just keep doing what you are doing. Remember your main point, have your own voice, forget the rest. Don't get caught up in an internet brawl ... unless it's good for business 😁
They are both hardbop, but Flanagan is instantly recognisable by his touch. He plays those runs, where the notes are like pearls stringed together. I don't any pianist, who does that quite the same way.
Andy… you are hurting their bottom line. It ain’t personal. It is business. In your sincere and thoughtful rant, you criticize their source of income. If you are right, if everyone actually sounds the same, then clearly the form of codification and transference of knowledge has a huge problem because it is not fostering creativity. They are music educators. When you are on the side of academia, you need to support a hierarchy, a history, and a specific structure that in turn, supports you as educator. Anyways… if you are right, the whole system has a huge problem. Personally, I do thing, bar certain exceptions, you are right. But there are more complex issues at play. And about the “Jaco” things? What can you expect from people who called Bossa Nova “Brazilian Jazz”. They would probably call the 二胡 a Chinese violin, and so forth. Self-Centered culture cannot see that it is self-centered, least of all when they called what they do “universal”. Remember American Football teams are world champion and never compete against any other country. 😂 😂 😂 Have a good life man!
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer yeah man…. You got it right there. Hope they invite you. If they do, please, stir up some controversy regarding the insane amount of money that the “universalization” of jazz has generated in some corners of the US economy. Love the channel. Keep the rants! Love from Taiwan.
Hey, Our football kicks asz literally. Its a War game, taking and defending territory. Chess with human pieces. Our world dominance depends on it. Carry on. Btw we both got Navy kids Rule Brit....er America rules the waves...
Back in 1998 Peter Martin was the pianist in Joshua Redmans band and they sounded great ? Is this the case ? I think that’s correct . On one hand you Andy could go punk and tell them to F off . Or have the discussion you are having . You are doing a great job Andy and so are they , it’s great they are checking out your channel. Good banter .
Redman is an example of a great player not going forward. I love listening but he makes Branford Marsalis seem avant garde.. I have met Branford as sons uncle went to Berklee with him. As he said he can put all his being into a relevant new style but fail. The times choose us, ways of comprehending our world in new ways are not upto us. We can but work and see where life takes us. No one controls our world.Though Academics build the Appearance of doing so
Andy, can you tell me the brand/name of that shirt. Looks like the pattern and comfort-factor that I'm looking for this summer which is gonna get hot soon.
I feel they're uber fans of jazz or the concept of jazz and can't see the wood for the trees. Into the names, the sub-genres and still believe that jazz is highly innovative because they saw that written somewhere, by someone like Leonard Feather, way back.
Welcome to America, mate, where no one listens, but simply waits for their turn to talk. I enjoy your channel. I’m a drummer like you, but I’m new to jazz. It’s been very educational. And since I’m new, I do think everyone sounds the same, which made made me an Elvin Jones fan. Cheers.
RIght? They couldn’t even get through the opening statement before going off on a judgemental tangent. I’m new to jazz and Andy has been a very helpful resource in my growing appreciation of the art form.
I'm a big fan of Max Roach.
Elvin's a great introduction to digging into the individual voice of jazz drumming. Be attentive to how he played around with placing the kick and hi hat foot in relation to the groove. Understanding then breaking molds is always a great thing.
One day you may even be listening to Sunny Murray.
@@Simon.the.Likeable I have recently gone back to his work with Albert Ayler and I'm hearing stuff I did not hear when I was younger. That might be because my appreciation of early jazz and it's mysterious roots are better known to me now. Perhaps my top ten greatest free jazz drummers video should be made. For me it would be Ronald Shannon Jackson....
Andy you touched their sacred cow. They're the same with modern rock/classic rock and country lovers. . They are like Rolling Stone editors. It becomes harder to stand out when music has become a hybrid of a hybrid of a hybrid.
You lot are great! Thanks for the support
This has been a textbook case of humility vs pride.
Good work Andy!
Proverbs 11:2 - When arrogance comes, disgrace follows, but with humility comes wisdom.
I think a more interesting discussion is not whether or not quality novelty/creativity has stalled (it has) but what are the causes.
I believe there are numerous factors.
Firstly is spiritually decay.
A bad tree cannot create good fruit.
Then there are the institutional factors you have discussed (educational and economic).
There are also numerous technological influences.
I think the effects of audio recording cannot be underestimated.
I also ponder if there is simply a limited musical potential and that a point of diminishing returns has been reached.
Anyway, perhaps operating from a point of not if but why would be good.
This video is a perfect example of the English Aesthetic: 'undermining with kindness...' 😃
@@FaithLikeAMustardSeedThe possession of music is another factor Andy touched on.
Used to be that a tune could be played by anyone however they like.
I guess it goes hand-in-hand with recording and business.
Without sales involved there was no squabble.
A band would have to perform to hear a song, so it was unique everytime!
And it wasn't studio perfect and replayable to anal-yze it to death.
Now it's like some kind of idolatry of some "perfection" that makes people snobs.
@@Undecieved Another thought: "What makes a Song Great"?
I think Andy is right about it being the message (relatable and moving).
What message is there today?
Nothing with much real substance. At least not that gets any traction. Mostly just posers!
England and America. Seperated by a common language. Edwards presents an argument which has an arc and a dialectic. These two speak in 10'second goldfish soundbites.
An arc and a dialectic? The argument is actually Polemical. And I like it. Andy makes a fair point.
Fact is, Gregory Hutchinson is saying much of what you’re saying about the scene today, and these cats wouldn’t dare question it. Love your honesty and openness and I’m sure it has been key in acquiring the info you share. Keep it up! Killer channel.
Hi Andy, I really appreciate your Socratic approach to these topics. You're very balanced.
The quality of an opinion is not age based, its based on the argument and evidence. Feelings are not opinions.
Spot on Andy. Debating music should be fun and a learning experience, and sometimes we agree to disagree.
It is sad to see them avoid every one of your points. Whats more, they seemed to tangentially wander wherever their own biases would take them. The worst offense is that they completely neglected to see that you were structuring your talk towards a conclusion. I did a masters in jazz here in the US and this was the exact type of dogmatic “jazz attitude” that turned me away from the whole scene. Your core point that the cultural zeitgeist in art is moving away from the individual and towards a homogeneous unity is very prevalent worldwide. This phenomenon is part and parcel of a larger natural progression of society. The increasingly sprawling and technologically integrated aspects of society explain a cause, but don’t offer a viable solution (or any direction). It seems that discussing this phenomenon is the best we can do for now. What we are currently left with is a threatening environment for innovative artists because they lack a tenable platform/community to grow their ideas. Keep up the good work, love the channel!
I think there is a reason why they didn't want to discuss my take down of modern jazz academia.....
I've watched open studio for a while and learned a lot of theory and practice methodology... and your explanation of their dodgy biased "arguments" is on point. While I do agree with some of their dogma and love their videos this was a vulgar display of weird one-sidedness haha.
@@ornettebreaker There is nothing wrong in wanting to play in an orthodox jazz style, and their videos are a great resource. But with the orthodoxy comes a certain viewpoint which can only come from viewing the world from within an orthodoxy.
I'd go so far as to say that the jazz academia issue was likely the primary motivator for their vid, and an attempt to undermine & disqualify Andy and his channel
Trevor Crawford, I salute you. Very very well said. You have in one paragraph articulated what is going/ has gone wrong with the life of us humans "a larger natural progression of society", the innocent by standers; the other living organisms are victims of the collateral damage.
Your videos are the least didactic rants in the universe. You put forward your opinions with great care and context. Thank you!
The moment it was obvious they were treating your comments as if you have an inflexible stance, my BS meter was going off. It seems they are more eager to appear correct, or superior, than in discussing the topic earnestly
Andy great reaction reaction. I understand what you’re saying and I’m surprised when others don’t.
As Frank Zappa eloquently put it " a mind is like a parachute if its closed it wont work." My own take on it is that we are all individuals and as such we tend to gravitate to the things we personally like. This can then translate into a blanket form of sorting out the things we dont like and labelling them as boring or all sounding the same. As a musician from the 60s I used to love blues but now they all sound the same because they are using the same old noodling which for me means heavy boredom. Same goes for heavy metal once I hear the doom laden fuzz I switch off unless its Terje Rypdal. However if its a live performance it can have the opposite effect. So it is subjective and musicians will always listen in a different way to none musicians. By the way there are awesome Jazz musicians in China, Japan, Russia and South Korea. Traditional African Jazz is also awesome especially with a live performance I am thinking of bands in South Africa. The only Jazz I really do not like at all is "Dinner Jazz" which in my book is fit only for the vomitorium. Oddly enough Barney Kessel and the great guitars is a tour de force, same goes for Django and Stephan Grappelli they could be framed as exponents of the dreaded "Dinner Jazz" but that is how they started. To put this all into perspective. One of Frank Zappas band members played a big Sax break I think it was on Jazz from Hell and that Sax break and the dude who was playing it won Sax player of the year. It was only after he collected the award from some big noise Jazz forum that it was revealed that he had no idea how to play a Sax. It was just done when a fellow band member handed this none Sax player a Sax so he just sucked and blowed with his hands holding the thing rather than pressing the buttons. Thus the truth of the fact that the Sax really is the ill wind that no one blows any good. Ultimately Jazz is not dead it just smells funny.
hating on the same thing together is super fun and is how a lot of friendships are made, i doubt Peter will have the same argument when he's not doing this with Adam, and picking on the accent is really low move
Thanks for the vid Andy, your point still stands.. these two dudes just seem very defensive and contrarian for the sake of being contrarian without really strengthening their arguments.
It takes a significant degree of insight to be aware of one’s personal biases, and a great degree of genuine humility to attempt to actually understand another person’s viewpoint without the automatic surface level attempts at ‘nullification’ we all tend to do.
To a casual jazz fan as I consider myself- the concept that the art form has been officially codified etc and the various unintended consequences of that are observable as Andy has discussed is a valid observation
To automatically negate this is at worst disingenuous and at best very short sighted
If Jazz wasn't atrophying I would wonder why? Most categories of artforms do. To say this exists seems self evident to me. Educators will not let the young in unless they follow the strict rules they have identified as defining jazz. My argument is to allow them in by stopping doing that, in simple terms, stop teaching how to play the changes of pop songs from 90 years ago. But to a modern jazz educator that proposition sounds preposterous
What's your opinion of David Bowie's final album?
It's the same with a lot of stuff with guitarists, etc. There are a great many technical players out there.
Really nice reaction, Andy. I had a feeling you’d address this with respect, even though that respect was not shown to you, and you didn’t disappoint. 😁
I’m with you…everything they said is fair (whether I agree with it or not) *expect* the shot at your accent. That was over the line and honestly really pissed me off. I’ve been watching their channel way longer than I’ve been watching yours. I love their channel. But that? That made me want to never visit it again. Those two usually come off as kind and chill, but that just really had dismissing vibes that reeked of “Jazz Elitism.” Like “this guy can’t even say Jaco right, what could he know?!” Forgive me French, but fuck that. I expect an apology from them on that one or I will not be buying any more of their content.
Then they never picked me up on how I say McLaughlin! They could at least be consistent!
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer 😂
@@bodhibeats8257 Thanks for your support over there. It was appreciated. I found the whole video quite entertaining because I saw your support straight away and knew I hadn't been pushing a postion that no one agreed with. Thanks again
Great rebuttal Andy. You do an excellent job of staying true to the core of the argument while addressing the topics of discussion in your videos and it shines here as you respond to the Open Studio cats. I also dig those guys and look forward to you guys getting in a room together.
I think you all being in person would change the dynamic of the response and an insightful discussion would transpire!
They took their reaction video down after I did this....
Keep the argument going, rock on, thank you.
The vibe of their comments seemed to be very much in the how-dare-you-camp where they were determined to hear whatever they needed to allow them to gatekeep who's allowed to discuss the topic and who isn't, who has a legit point of view and who doesn't.
Yes...gatekeepers....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Look at you stoking the indignation in your comments section. I guess this drives traffic for you, good strategy.
I have learned so much from this channel, empirical analysis and fuel for the delectation of my greedy ear holes. 👍
I found it a bit nuts that they just started talking about age.
That's where I just couldn't be bothered to listen anymore tbh.
I like the way you do things. That, and there are literally no fellow Brummie area natives talking about jazz on UA-cam lol.
I like Adam & Peter's channel quite a bit and find them good chaps, but Andy has the greater intellectual and persuasive depth in this exchange hands down.
I like how your response now has more views than their original reaction video. Cheers
Nice one, Andy! I watched their reaction first not realising you'd be showing it again here, so now the windmills of my mind have fallen off. I do hope all three of you hook up for a live chat. Cheers, Ian
Next I will do a reaction to my reaction to their reaction. Eventually my channel will become an infinite regression of entropic reactions before I snap out of it with a good solid video covering my top ten favourite drum introductions, thus restoring much needed order to the universe. At least that is my intention
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer As a non-jazz, debatable-musician, I did come up with a jazz count off: Tractor one, tractor two, tractor three...etc. Solid, but possibly more a hindrance than a help, and I've never actually tried it. But then, it could be a game changer - I'm sure you'd know. Cheers, Ian
😂
As others have said, it seems like you struck some sort of nerve and their ego's can't bear it. I'm surprised about their judgmental attitude after mere minutes of your video. They are very fixated on you as a person (e.g. how good your connections are, whether you can appreciate the music properly, ...) instead of actually adressing any points that are made.
Andy, you should ask those guys to join the discussion with you on a live stream or in a video on both channels.... I suspect you will find you all have common ground.
I hear you Andy, and I appreciate your efforts to air all of this out. Big respect from Texas 🍻✨
Andy, you have stated your case based on wisdom, knowledge, humble opinions and historical analysis - not feelings. Brilliant job. Jazz is Dead, so what is the big deal? Something new will emerge, as always. Jazz, like classical music, has become academic and dogmatic and rigid. What the fuck am I going to with a degree from NYU in jazz studies. Just play the music. Enjoy yourself. As Charlie Parker said, "First you learn the instrument, then learn the music, then you forget all that shit, and just play." Wynton Marsalis Sucks.......
Who needs the UFC when you’ve got Andy handing out knockouts like this?!
I couldn't watch their vid, I tried but they were so smug I turned off. Your videos are reasoned and sensible
Great videos, Andy. I like the point you made. They were definitely triggered. I remembered the clickbait title. It got me to click, but then I listened. Their manner of listening was so different from mine (granted I was listening while driving on an extended road trip, not endlessly slicing up the continuity of your video almost on a "lick by lick" basis). I do agree, though, the two of them comprise good pool of Jazz knowledge and it would be great to see you have a real time discussion with them. I'd look forward to seeing that. Regard
My formula for a UA-cam video: 1) create a title and thumbnail that makes people want to click. 2) Assure them at the start that the video will deliver on the promise of the title 3) Deliver on the title 4) Then go beyond the expectations of the viewer. If you get that right the video should do well.
I love your channel and your genuine approach towards musical expression. Keep up the great work.
Thank you so much!
What's funny to me about this whole thing is that I think you do a lot of videos including more esoteric content and complex discussions, but here I think you're making a simple point that can easily get taken out of context because it's such a sensitive topic. There is no doubt about the music industry and culture changing the way music is produced and consumed. One thing that is fading in Jazz is the idea of the individual's voice, and I think that is a sad thing to witness, and I think that is very distinct from Pop and Alternative Rock. Thanks, Andy!
But why is it so sensitive?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I think the sensitivity has to do with the point that you've previously made about this "elitist" thinking in the world of jazz music, which of course doesn't apply to everyone working in jazz, but definitely some musicians and consumers alike. "That's not real jazz, I'll show you what real jazz is!" That sort of thinking. Thanks for provoking thought with these discussions! Like you say, at the end of the day, it's just music, we're just having fun. I'd love to see you on with those two guys for a more in-depth discussion and debate!
My rant as a boomer in response to just the first part where they fail to grock Andy's humor. The younger generations have no sense of humor. This is a big social shift that has occurred and it's influence on the arts is profound. I see it everywhere in both the creation, consumption and analysis of art and popular entertainment by millennials and Z. Young people reduce everything to a simple 10th grade level of analysis and lack analytical acuity beyond looking for the most obvious "message". it drives me crazy. End rant.
Andy speaks for me.
INNOVATION AND ORIGINALITY IS WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR.
Looking good, man, love to see that.
I am familiar with the “Open Studio” TY channel. These discussions about level of difficulty, chops, sounding like (pick a musician), focusing more on what is being played and how it’s being played more than the song (musical piece) itself. This explains why Jazz has the reputation for being an art form in which musicians are playing for and trying to impress other musicians. The masses of listeners have never gravitated to the complex. Miles Davis’ “Kind of Blue” album was groundbreaking. The entire album was pure jazz and completely relatable with great improvisation where the musicians used their skills to enhance the most essential element: the song. I recently found your channel a couple of days ago. Good stuff.
It's a simple flaw of the reaction format video that it's based on reacting to a video as it plays. It is not a response to an argument that takes the span of a video to make a case. I think you're correct that they spent the bulk of the video reacting to what they thought you were going to say, with no knowledge of the actual content of the video and followups.
I've enjoyed and learned from this channel as well as YHI, and I really hope that this interaction leads to more understanding, learning and appreciation of jazz. It's very easy to sit back and watch the video and check your own reaction boxes: "Wrong", "No", "What?", "Maybe", "OK", etc. and then add them up and cast a final judgment (Tolerate, Cancel, etc.), and maybe very satisfying, but I think that there's a lot more to be gained by going deeper and going through the arguments, right or wrong, and looking for subtlety and nuance, and possibly finding something new and interesting. I'm not taking sides here - I would really like to hear more about this from both Andy and Adam and Peter.
i am up for that. But they may be like the fish that does not know water is a thing
I am on your side...
Esperanza Spalding is unique and her music is constantly evolving. She is continuing the old school jazz tradition of experimenting and creating her own unique style. I'm sure you heard of her, but if you didn't get deeper into her music, do so.
Spalding was at Pori Jazz 2017, it was great! It would be good to throw a few original names who are not sounding like everyone else. I think this observation is in general, "most of contemporary jazz" is not "all of jazz nowadays"
Those guys are despicable.
Their narcissism means in their minds and attitudes that they must be better than you in everyway and therefore everything you say must be wrong.
You must have really struck a nerve for them to even make that video!
Ego defense and denial.
Well said.
I watched that video all the way through, something they didn't have the courtesy to do with your video.
I thought their video was very poor. They were more interested in the sounds of their own voices than in listening to your argument. The guy with the cap was particularly annoying.
Thanks for your support over there
Love your insights. Especially your video "what makes this song great"
Thank you...
Great video, Andy. I do tend to find that reaction videos as a whole can tend to cancel (not totally cancel) the nuances of the original by the reactees stopping the first video halfway through a point being made. I've seen it time and again on many different subjects. I'm not saying they did it all the time. There were plenty of times they ran your video on to get to a point. By stopping and starting too often the subtlety and the argument's thread can be lost. Sadly they did seem quite suspicious of who you were, where you came from and what you know, talking about biases and algorithms without acknowledging their own. It came across as quite condescending; a bit 'gatekeepery' to be honest. As I was watching I thought that it would be better if you all discussed this live. It was nice to see that proposed towards the end. I think it would be a great discussion.
I hope they get in touch
This is one of the issues with “the creator market.” Two guys who don’t know how to listen and follow arguments. And yet they have a platform to speak with authority about a history they know nothing about
Great, level response...you gave them time when they didn't give it you.
But the big question Loz, were you entertained by all this?
I was entertained...and you're right, the big question is "Would Loz be entertained by this?".
Edified.
Some of this is what makes it difficult for me to get into jazz, the somewhat pompousness and arrogance. I mostly listen to metal, speed metal, neoclassical, death metal, classic rock, classical, and even serialism. So I'm familiar with Ron Jarzombek Shawn Lane, Allan Holdsworth etc, as well as I love Milton Babbitt and Schoenberg. However, I cant stand alot of traditional jazz including Coltrane the melodies sound goofy to me. I also cant stand horns, I know, blasphemy. I respect that stuff and try to learn from it, but the people that worship it are so arrogant it really turns me off from it as well, I avoided university for music after auditioning and being accepted due to the vibe of the course, the instructors and the other students I've met at local jams, I just dont jive with it, probably because I love death metal and rock and despise everything hipster especially indie music.
Ignore the fucktards... Just keep on listening... You know, opinions are like assholes... Everybody has one.
Nothing is as overrated and hyped as guitar. Stringed instruments are world wide, and always only a few on any instrument worth listening to.
There are no more great guitarists as sax or trumpet players, and that includes classical flamenco blues and others. Piano probably the greatest instrument and drums foundational.
I can makes lists of about 20 on any instrument and after that just minor derivatives.
You have them dead to rights Andy. They are ranting every 15 seconds w/o listening..... the very thing jazz musicians are "not" to do.
Andy-listen to both your and the Hear gents and have learned from all - this discourse is a nexus of ideas which is worthwhile
Arranging a meeting to talk this on your or their show would be fun - and further the educational part of your shows
Yes I hope they get in touch. I want to ask Peter about playing with Joshua Redman
They seem to be nitpicking what you said more than providing an argument on why they disagree. Music is subjective so whatever your opinion it is correct. Correcting the Jacko pronunciation is just immature and pointless. You’re obviously from a different country than them! I’m sure not going to check out their channel because they seem preoccupied with criticizing your content rather than having a discussion. I hope that this at least makes viewers curious enough to check out your channel. You have a point of view that I believe would resonate with a lot of musicians and music lovers.
Sir Andy Edwards, you are exactly right, keep up the good work. These guys were focused on dissing you only... very unfortunate approach.
WHAT!!! No stache???
Interesting continuation of the discussion. I’m still in the Andy camp.
It seems "Adam & Peter" are just "jazz-nerds" (or maybe "music-nerds") while Andy Edwards' horizon seems much wider. Take the subject "jazz" or "music (in general)" away and they proably do not have much to offer except making childish jokes about accents etc.. Certainly no class. Proably they felt offended by the argumentation of Andy Edwards that jazz is not innovative as it used to be 50 years ago. On this channel Andy Edwards did a video about "Jazz-snobs". "Adam & Peter" could fit that category - well, "sort of" 🙂
Step 1: sort of ignore the 2 brats 😮
Step 2: react to your own original video 😅
Love you, Andy! 😊
There are things you can learn and others you can only get in doing or living them. Personality grows with experience. "What you wonna play, if you have nothing to say?" Joop Christoffer, a Dutch bassplayer out of the '50s. Jazz is (maybe not anymore) not only a music style, but a a life style. 55:46
Fun meta analysis here. Would love to see the three of you discuss/debate in real time rather than react to one another. They do seem a bit triggered by the title of your video, which sets the general ‘straw man’ tone for their rebuttal to all the points you made in that original video. What I like about all three of you is your unequivocal passion for music, jazz particularly.
I was taught that the biggest sin was in believing other people when they call you a "jazz musician", because it puts you in a box, and that's not what "jazz" is all about.
I’d love to see a good faith discussion in real time between yourself and these two guys. Back and forth written or recorded responses always seem to lead to confusion and misinterpretation.
After listening and before reacting to your reaction reaction, I listened to your reaction of Rick Beato and great songs. That video was definitely more fun to listen to.
These guys, I forget their names, might like to give that one a listen, too.
Also, I would never tease someone about their accent. But sometimes the UA-cam CC button is accidently left on (not because I need it, mind you) which leads to some interesting results.
In case you're curious, "boomer view" became "boobs of you".
Keep up the good work!
And I'm sure no one on their UA-cam would make a similar observation. I imagine them reading this comment saying 'who are these people?'
Change is what keeps music. Interesting.
I don’t think you should respond to these guys should they make a reaction video to your reaction.
They know their shit professionally but people who are on that level that they make comments about your accent are just not worth an answer.
When people start criticizing pronunciation and grammar, they know they're out of the ammunition required to win the debate.
Andy is exploring ideas in a measured and thoughtful way with the usual professorial insight (minus glasses on the end of the nose). These guys are talking like they're on some sort of UA-cam channel or something...😉
Yeah, for anyone paying attention its impossible to not notice the difference in delivery and flow of argument.
Too many UA-camrs will glide right through poorly reasoned arguments, or torturously repeating the same points to make the vid longer than necessary, simply by hitting the right emotional notes in delivery. Sprinkled with zingers that they know will get the commenters/watchers on board with them.
I'm not saying these guys are completely uninformed or 100% relying on delivery style to hit the mark, but how can I say it ... there's a little too much Kenny G interspersed among the more substantial moments in their conversational jazz ; )
I'm not an academic though. I have no qualifications in music, not even grade 1 drums. I am a prog rock drummer...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Professor Biscuit! 🤓🤓🤓
@@Tomurow is that a cookies vs. biscuits reference?
Listen to Latin Jazz. Paquito d'Rivera and Gonzalo Rubalcaba have both the chops and deep understanding. A Caribbean blues"clave" feel with Euro classical technique
Interesting! I’m a fan of both your channels. I agree it wasn’t a great reaction on their part, they weren’t really listening to your points. It sounds to me though like your point just applies to music industry as a whole, right? There’s not as much innovation in general anymore because there’s no money to be made by trying to innovate! This is Rick Beato’s main point and I agree with it: the problem isn’t that there’s a lack of amazing and creative musicians out there, it’s just not in the mainstream anymore compared to the 1970s. So while I agree with you I’m not sure it’s useful to limit this argument to jazz.
Thanks for the video!
It is so sad...
You are trying to have intelligent conversations about music and then a bunch of nincompoops, desperate for some attention, are jumping on the (or try to create their own) bandwagon of not listening, because of that simply not understanding what you talk about, putting words in your mouth, kind of `oh, I feel so offended by this person´ sentiment... It's tiresome.
I play music. I listen to it - a lot. And ... whether we like it or not; there are a lot of very talented musicians out there, doing their own discovery. Which is great! I love it, I really do! But... Anyone denying that many of those talented people do sound a lot like the people on whose shoulders they're standing (sometimes without knowing) is simply not paying attention.
And! Even worse... If they are a musician... They are not listening... At all.
Wasn't it Bob Marley who sang that if you don't know your past, you can't know your future?
Continue with your rants, your thoughts. Voice your opinions, please! They are helping me to be a better musician. (and I bet I'm not the only one ^_^ )
Kidderminster 1 : 'Murica 0
😂
I'm with you Edward! Totally true what you're saying. To me the they sounds like Talibans of jazz and very arrogant. They did not get your point. Keep on doing what you're doing!
you hurt the berkeley boys feelings....😂
A proposition: perhaps looking at who of the all-time great Jazz musicians were/are self-taught might help here. Jaco Pastorius and Wes Montgomery come to my mind, but there will be loads of other examples. My intuition is that being self-taught leaves you more open for new musical approaches, but that assesment needs proper data to back it up (musicology PhD thesis lurking). Certainly, thouroghly trained musicians out of academia get more gigs, particularly in the almost cut-throat competitive business which the music industry has become - in my experience.
What I would have like to see is you hosting a program with them as guests and discussing the issue in real time. I think the "virtual shield/wall" doesn't serve nuanced discussion or debate well. I think there are too many dimensions through which missed-undertstanding can take place. In real time people tend to police themselves better for the sake of the mutual endeavor.
Yes this is true. And despite their offer and my request to do so on their UA-cam, that offer has not yet been made.
Those two are not only annoying but painfully predictable in their comments, not unusual for an American UA-cam channel. Keep up the good work, Andy.
There's so much I want to say on this but I don't want it to end up being a massive screed, so I'll try to keep things brief.
First, I'm a big fan of the You'll Hear it channel. These guys obviously know their stuff and their videos are usually very informative but I think they really dropped the ball on this one. They don't really address the points and, as Andy says, seem more triggered by the title than anything else. The pronunciation dig is particularly petty. That being said, when you make a lot of videos, it is inevitable that there is going to be a duffer every now and again.
Second, when people are arguing on the internet there is a lot of confusion, deliberate or accidental, about trends and individual cases. The existence of cases on the edges of the bell shaped curve doesn't tell you anything about what is going on in the centre. Saying that one is a representation of the other is a common error or misdirect. It seems to me that Andy is saying that in Jazz, the general trend used to be that distinction was made via the musician's "voice" whereas now the general trend is that distinction is made through virtuosity within a codified framework. That Peter and Adam at one point say that having a voice is the equivalent of being a virtuoso shows how they aren't really listening to where Andy is coming from. Billie Holiday has a distinctive voice and is an incredible artist but she is not virtuosic. Ella Fitzgerald has a distinctive voice, is an incredible artist and is virtuosic. You could find similar cases for every instrument.
Third, the elephant in the room is standardisation through education. It is the academisation of Jazz education which has led to the high standard of playing that is practically taken as a given for modern musicians these days. However, that high standard has inevitably led to a standardisation of technique and sound and a general reticence to step away from the norm. Those who do, either voluntarily step away from the Jazz label or are gatekept out of it. Peter and Adam are heavily invested in Jazz education, particularly through their online education portal Open Studio, so I'm sure they have had to fight this battle before.
Fourth, Jazz is in a difficult situation in that since the 1970s two of its defining characteristics, innovation and improvisation, have increasingly been coming into conflict with the cultural baggage of its tradition. The Black American Music project is possibly the most extreme crystallisation of this tension.
They cut the video off at the point where I critique Jazz education in the Academy. In the end these videos are for entertainment purposes only, and we are trying to get people watching. I hope it's interesting for people who are drawn in by a click baity title and they go away with something more than just watching a slinging match. I have never done one of these before but I was attracted to the idea of critiqueing the critique, and in a way I'm putting my own discussion under scrutiny. In the end it's not life and death and I have great respect for them as musicians and UA-camrs
18:05 Speaking of "guys coming out today" and sticking to piano players, what about people like Alfa Mist and Joe Armon-Jones?
I have been told literally hundreds of artists I should check out. No one is listening to the same stuff! Surely back in the day the same question would have thrown up Coltrane, Dolphy and Ornette. And if we just take those three. Are the sax players around today really as different as those three players are?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I actually agree with most of your points, in the same "sort of"-way you do. I also think Wynton Marsalis and his notion of "jazz classicism" is close to the root of the problem with many kinds of modern jazz.
I have also been excited to see young contemporary artists create their own strange kinds of fusion with hip-hop and latin etc. and actually manage to filll concert venues with young people grooving to the rhythms.
The senescent to outright old jazz audiences I see far too often are a dead giveaway that it smells funny at least. But people who manage to get young people hooked while us graybeards still appreciate it must be onto something.
Andy, I very much appreciate and respect the way you Thoughtfully address this phenomenon of musical homogenization, an ambient trait of the current (western) culture we live in, from art , jazz, pop, to airports and media , it seem depressingly unescapable sometimes. It´s funny though to see these guys defensivness, not caring to elaborate or at least match the weight of your insight efforts and enrich the debate with better arguments. At least here they sound to me a little bit like republicans of jazz. They seem to not register that as much as they created a positive and nice jazz education platform, they also add to the overwhelming amount of "jazz tutorials" type of YT channels, and may contribute to opaque the intimate - introspective process of becoming a jazz musician, or an artist in general, propagating template style over personality.
In the past you had to "earn" learning something aurally, by listening , emulating it, or at the bandstand. Perhaps the analog imperfection and intimate locality of this process helped to generate a richer variety of voices among aspiring artists. Now you have an avalanche of channels teaching you "jazz devices", in which the meaning , the culture, the origin has been subtracted. The medium has become the message, and i think in the end this might take the spiritual element out from the art. Not surprisingly, Keith Jarrett himself has admitted to be a conscience objector to the internet. Please do keep your insights and channel going on, it´s vital to have these kind of discussion on our autopilot culture.
I saw their thing yesterday, I defended your post, that they have time to dis your post, it also seemed they made a comment pertaining to your accent, that replied without much negative to me……I’ve seen good info, review from them….
Thanks for your support. I saw what you did. It's all very entertaining in the end isn't it?
These guys represent to me the difference between jazz now and jazz then! Jazz then was blue collar today it’s an elitist and insular world!
This!! I'm a Jazz refugee because I just couldn't handle the hang. Super insular.
54:52 Agreed
It goes all ummagumma at 4:12
Ha ha...yes it does....
The Brecker's you can point them out. On every recording they joined.
Right at the start, when critic A mentions that you’re from the UK, critic B mutters “uh-oh”. Prejudging much?
Damn Yanks!!
these guys are the 'gatekeepers' you often talk about, keep up the great work
The algo said "it's only youtube but I like it"
I’m with Andy on this one. I signed up to open whatever it’s called as it’s got good music content. But their response on this chat was plain boring… snobbish, holier than thou, kids crap.
Typical of today's media, closed minds.
They take every word too specifically, no idea of the real meaning in the context of the sentence and subject. Taking it too literally, it's not the written word, it's a conversation. That's a big difference in UK language and American. I've noticed that over the last few years, especially since the arrival of the www, this aspect is creeping into UK particularly in the media.
A particular word should be taken in the context of the complete sentence and subject, not literally. When it's taken literally, that's when the misunderstanding takes place. They aren't actively listening, they are only listening to what they want to hear, words that they pick out and taking it out of context.
Is that also how they listen to music, probably, most people do. People who really actively listen to music, hear things in a different way and take things in, they hear the music. Most don't, they hear a noise and go I don't like that crap. They don't hear the music, they have closed minds. Frank Zappa talked about this a lot during his life and of course, he was correct.
They haven't listened.
They also talk as if they know more, they are correct, they know more than anybody else, they are correct and everyone else is wrong. It's all just a view point, an opinion. It's music, so it's subjective, nobody can be right or wrong, it's only opinion.
Personally, I'd sooner listen to how you talk about music with an open view, then theirs.
The irony Andy is that you admitted your title was 'Click bait' and they are reacting to your click bait title. They are creating a click bait title of their own by reacting to your click bait title. The best thing to do is ignore them and just keep doing what you are doing. Remember your main point, have your own voice, forget the rest. Don't get caught up in an internet brawl ... unless it's good for business 😁
It's good for their business and mine! But I admit this....
Regarding your remark about age and fashion (with which I heartily agree) I have one thing to say: "Miles."
Tommy Flanagan and Sonny Clark, I don't think they were very alike.
Exactly!
They are both hardbop, but Flanagan is instantly recognisable by his touch. He plays those runs, where the notes are like pearls stringed together. I don't any pianist, who does that quite the same way.
Andy… you are hurting their bottom line. It ain’t personal. It is business. In your sincere and thoughtful rant, you criticize their source of income.
If you are right, if everyone actually sounds the same, then clearly the form of codification and transference of knowledge has a huge problem because it is not fostering creativity. They are music educators. When you are on the side of academia, you need to support a hierarchy, a history, and a specific structure that in turn, supports you as educator.
Anyways… if you are right, the whole system has a huge problem.
Personally, I do thing, bar certain exceptions, you are right. But there are more complex issues at play.
And about the “Jaco” things? What can you expect from people who called Bossa Nova “Brazilian Jazz”. They would probably call the 二胡 a Chinese violin, and so forth. Self-Centered culture cannot see that it is self-centered, least of all when they called what they do “universal”. Remember American Football teams are world champion and never compete against any other country. 😂 😂 😂
Have a good life man!
This may be why they stopped the video before I got onto the codification of jazz by the academy too
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer yeah man…. You got it right there. Hope they invite you. If they do, please, stir up some controversy regarding the insane amount of money that the “universalization” of jazz has generated in some corners of the US economy. Love the channel. Keep the rants! Love from Taiwan.
Hey, Our football kicks asz literally. Its a War game, taking and defending territory. Chess with human pieces. Our world dominance depends on it.
Carry on.
Btw we both got Navy kids
Rule Brit....er America rules the waves...
RIP Moustache. You will not be forgotten.
He has gone and set up is own UA-cam channel.
Back in 1998 Peter Martin was the pianist in Joshua Redmans band and they sounded great ? Is this the case ? I think that’s correct . On one hand you Andy could go punk and tell them to F off . Or have the discussion you are having . You are doing a great job Andy and so are they , it’s great they are checking out your channel. Good banter .
He is a monster player, his note selection and phrasing is incredible IMO. I would rather talk to him about that tbh.
Redman is an example of a great player not going forward. I love listening but he makes Branford Marsalis seem avant garde..
I have met Branford as sons uncle went to Berklee with him.
As he said he can put all his being into a relevant new style but fail. The times choose us, ways of comprehending our world in new ways are not upto us. We can but work and see where life takes us. No one controls our world.Though Academics build the Appearance of doing so
Andy, can you tell me the brand/name of that shirt. Looks like the pattern and comfort-factor that I'm looking for this summer which is gonna get hot soon.
It's by a label called 'Jazz Snob Killer'
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Ok I actually Googled it. Nothing came up...
Just remember Andy, you don’t have to justify your views to anyone. Looking forward to seeing you at one of your gigs...
Are they musicians? How do they manage without listening?
I feel they're uber fans of jazz or the concept of jazz and can't see the wood for the trees. Into the names, the sub-genres and still believe that jazz is highly innovative because they saw that written somewhere, by someone like Leonard Feather, way back.