Thustmaster T300 VS Thrustmaster TS-PC Racer - Wheel Comparison
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Get the T300 here : amzn.to/2noi1Jx
Get the TS-PC Racer here :amzn.to/2noqRHn
In this video we compare the Thrustmaster T300 against the Thrustmaster TS-PC Racer and give our opinion on the differences between the two wheels.
T300
Good : One of If not the best Value wheel on the market when considering quality of FFB Rotational speed and that it works with the Playstation 4 playstation 3 and PC ( Or Xbox one should you buy the TX base) The base also comes with basic pedals and a choice of Rims.
Bad : Can go into reduced stregth FFB if ran at 100% with high FFB cars for longer periods of time
TS-PC Racer
Good: Offers stronger FFB Than the T300 with slightly faster rotational speed and wont go into reduced strength mode even when ran at 100% for long periods of time and comes with really nice formula wheel.
Bad: Costs much more than the T300, Only works with the PC , Does not come with any pedals.
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Production Music courtesy of Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsou...
As soon as i get on my TM300 i put the base in forced fan mode, not a lot of people know about this. All it takes is to hold the buttons 'ST+Mode' momentarily, LED flashes twice, and vice versa to turn off.
St?
Dinksy St?
ST button on the wheel,It's ST on the TM300RS version, not sure about the GTE/Alcantara rim button. The ST button corresponds to Button 8 on PC, so if you go in the TM control panel and look under properties you just need to find which is number 8.
As for consoles,
PS3 - 'ST' button matches the START button
PS4 - 'ST' Button matches the OPTION button
ts.thrustmaster.com/download/pictures/pcmac/t300rs/t300_rs_button_mapping.pdf
Thanks good to know.
Went from a TMX pro to T300rs and whoa what a difference in detail and ffb I was gonna get the tspc racer but found someone moving, selling t300 w pro pedals and evo wheel for $200 so I’m happy lol
I want the T300rs so much, even though it's cheap at it's price, man it's good.
Having owned the T300 and now PC-Racer I noticed the increased notchiness too however it gets smoother after using for a few weeks. Had to use my T300 again recently which confirmed the PC-Racer had got a bit smoother but I also must say it reminded me how good a wheel the T300 is for the money as it didn't feel like much of a compromise having to use it again. The biggest difference going to the PC-Racer was the formula wheel, which I personally love compared to my trusty old 28 GT leather wheel.
Shame TM won't sell the formula wheel separately (and BTW if you find the formula wheel for sale on it's own and expect to connect it to your non PC-Racer base, don't as it's not fully compatible - the base doesn't initialise properly with it connected - you have to initialise with a standard rim then swap the formula wheel on and even then some of the buttons don't work).
What is feeling compared TS-PC to CSL Elite,when you move it slowly,do you feel every tooth on belts and gears,if you know what I mean,because i'm not paying 600eur for that notch feeling,you can test that when driving straight and try to move wheel very slowly or playing ETS/ATS games,,atleast G29 is better in that case than T150 Pro(same price range).Just looking whats better overall between CSL Elite Starter kit vs TS-PC Ferrari 488 Challenge edition! Thanks in advance! :)
Don’t know mate, never used the CSL Elite. Best I can say is from speaking to people with one or the other and various reviews watched about them, both sound very similar overall.
@@jrsp6480 Okay mate,thanks for answer,atleast what do you think,is it worth getting TS-PC Ferrari 570eur over T300rs around 300eur?I already got T150 pro and G29,I don't like feeling on both,playable,but notchy... 🙂
Hello mate, so I want to buy Ts-Pc Racer and also the TM open wheel add-on... any reccommendation if its worth it?
Just got my t300 today, i went from t150 to t300 and wow the t300 is so much better in force feedback it definitely an upgrade
So is this upgrade worth based on your own 2 years+ experiences?
Observation I made when owing the ts-pc: it has much more perceivable notchiness from the belt, (but not likely the motor), where as the t300 is extremely smooth, even when at Max strength. When the ts-pc is combined with a transducer running something like sim vibe, it'll mask alot of that notchiness. The strength is great to have though. It's just an unfortunate trade off.
You can turn the t300rs fan on at all times if you want to lol it allows it to stay full power also many people do this and don't have issues now losing a fan can happen but luckily it's easy to replace lol
You guys must have had the early T500 wheels in the red box, because my T500 in the blue box, is the opposite of what you describe. The only time my wheel ever ran "hot" and had the fan running all the time was on GT6 on the PS3 where you had almost zero control and the "springs" could not be turned off. Even on the PS4, with GT Sport Beta where there was almost no adjustments, and in Project Cars where you could turn off the springs it always runs cool with minimal fan engagement. If I don't blow it out annually, it will run the fan more, but a quick blast of compressed air and it is fine. On PC, I turn the Global controller springs off and turn it up to 1,000 degrees rotation. If I try and run it at 1080, it does sound like it is running into something and it gets resistant there, usually I run it at 900 degrees though so I can turn the wheel quickly for racing, the 1,000 would be for driving semis. Because of that I do use a Basherboards program. That allows me to change it at a click of the mouse from profile to profile. I run the strength at 90% in the stock profile and 65 or 75% on the secondary. Then adjust in the game. Btw, I did try Thrustmaster's new driver pack 3 for 2017 and it does not work correctly in Dirt Rally on PC. I deleted it and went back to 2. All that being, said, I did enjoy your video, nice side by side between the two new 40 watt TM wheels.
I just purchased a TS-PC racer a few weeks ago
I really like it! Definitely an upgrade from my T-150 Pro
But if someone on a budget , get T-150 pro 188 bucks on internet
It's actually scary how good the T-150 is.
I also got a GTE rim for my TS-PC
The f1 style it comes with is great but not for dirt or oval , ATS, etc etc.
I'll stick with my t300rs, I've never wanted or thought about running ffb at 100%. It's already strong enough and fan hardly ever kicks in. Nice comparison video though!
@@rok_2773 If he does not put the ffb to the bottom, he will not have any problems ... at worst, he will just have to change the fan, when this one is dead
You can have the 300rs at 100 percent leave the fan on at all times and it wotn cut down it only cuts down when it reads its to hot then turns the fan on if you leave the fan on you don't have to worry about that and yes the t300rs will surprise you with its strength to the point that moving the the tgt wasn't as big of a jump as I expected and even the cswv2.5 wasn't as insane as some made it out to be I am very surprised still to this date how strong my t300rs was but I have heard some get stronger bases then others some grt like an extra strong motor whike some say it isn't that strong and then if you have an issue everyone that's sent there's in always gets it back saying it feels like they put a stronger motor in it my thing for that is if you guys feel like your motor isn't strong open the back if the base check the wires half the time it's because the wires are loose lol pop them all the way in and boom full power lol
I am in the market now to get a new wheel and chair set up.
Been leaning toward the t300 but was unsure because of the pedal setup. I don't want a set of mediocre pedals. So, for me this was a great bit of info.
I would rather dole out a bit more at the outset to get a solid combo wheel/pedal set than to have to replace the pedals later.
Going for the Racer and some inverted pedals now. You just saved me some time and money. Thanks bud.
If pedals are a concern, you could go for the GT edition or the Ferrari 599 edition of the t300, both of which come with the better t3pa pedals.
Or buy the t-lcm pedals
@@djedi225 he said that 5 years ago, there were no Tlcm pedals back then.
Love my TS pc racer - great sweet spot for torque imo
Oh yes got mine few days ago, coming from g29 my wrists actually start to hurt after a while of using the wheel never had it with g29. I know its just a matter of getting used to, but it shows how much more powerful it is compared to logitech.
I have simucube 2 pro now 😁 no regrets!
@@benjaminbeames665 do you still have ur simucube?
Replacing the stock fan of the T300 with the NOCTUA upgraded fan completely alleviates this overheating and FFB issue. I always run at 100% because if it has it, I paid for it and I want it. My T300RS GT runs perfectly and is quiet. Even after hours of continuous racing my wheelbase isn't even warm to the touch. The ONLY difference I see here which isn't worth the price difference to me is the additional Nm that the TXPC Racer has over the 3.8Nm of the T300.
That's a bloody poor FFB system they have in R3E. A weight transfer effect is overriding the self-aligning torque of the wheels. In a real world situation the self-aligning torque would keep the rack in the steering housing still while the pinion (to which the steering wheel is attached via a steering shaft) is turning across the rack as the chassis loses traction at the rear and starts to pivot around a point at the front of the car between the front wheels. The centrifugal force plus weight of the car plus moment and the length of the car as leverage acts like a big torque wrench on that pivot point, and that's what you feel as 'weight transfer' through the wheel in a real life situation.
Apart from the poor FFB system though it's enough for me to see how the wheels compare to each other and I indeed came to the same conclusion as you did, just from viewing the footage... as silly as it sounds.
Although I wish to add that the more powerful the FFB motor, the less you have to push the game's signal to a clipping point. It gives you more dynamic range to play with instead of having to go into a LOUDNESS WAR situation where you constantly want to be clipping a bit because else things feel too weak. Plus you have more range available to play with lightweight track cars without downforce (Caterham R620) versus a high downforce F1 car or maybe a ground effect car like the Lotus 78.
Personally I'd say that below 2000 euro's more (power) is definitely still better in terms of wheels currently available. It's kinda like with HIFI equipment. It gets better and better until either the sound quality doens't improve, or your ears can't handle the volume anyway they can deliver (or the neighbours will send an officer to your door). With a wheel it's too much power when your arms can't hold on anymore. :p
I think he does a good job at describing performance instead of feel, as feel is indeed a very personal thing. Same with the FFB of raceroom, you can set it up to use self-aligning-torque only and it's a very familiar and robust FFB system for people who have been racing 10 years.
Once in use, everyone will tune their wheel to their liking and almost every wheel system and game allows tuning.
LogiForce86 Are you talking about the way the car gets into a left-right slide but "automatically" saves/corrects itself due to the FFB acting too "hyper"? If so, I completely agree with you and this can be replicated in any sim on the market especially if you have an OSW wheel. There are still massive holes and oddities, general speaking, not only in game physics but general FFB technology as well in every sim. The insanely snappy, instantaneous, and forceful/"torquey"self-aligning torque when using an OSW in any sim is a complete joke and no where near reality, not even close.
Spinelli - What I am seeing is a 'self-aligning torque' that is combined with a 'weight transfer effect' that results in something that looks like a spring effect, resulting often in oscillation due to addition of additional effects. In fact you can see it when GamerMuscle lets go of the wheel.
The reason this happens is because the weight transfer of a car (or any sprung object in motion) doesn't immediately die down. If you look purely across the longitudinal axis of a car than if the car has compressed on the right side due to weight transfer from a left hand corner, and upon rebound of this compression the car's weight will be given a certain amount of inertia which causes it to overshoot it's 'resting point' in the middle of the G-Force meter (often available in games).
What the overshooting weight does to the FFB is pretty obvious, it also causes the wheel to go past its center point, and keeps doing it until the weight comes to a rest. Sadly since the weight transfer is controlling the FFB motor and that in turn also turns the position sensor, which in turn controls the direction of our front wheels... that overshooting can either not die down or sometimes even increase when the weight transfer effect is too strong. Yet that entire weight transfer effect (as an add-on effect) is not needed, as normally this comes through the steering rack by nature!
If you have proper Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz tyre forces with identical proportions, than if the in-game tyres are modeled properly it will result in proper FFB and self-aligning torque as well as other forces.
In a drift what happens is that the front tyres still have full grip as they are angled towards the point where the car is sliding towards, so they aren't forced and self-aligning and won't be persuaded to 'twist/turn' easily by natural events (apart from you turning the wheel).
At that moment the rear tyres are spun up and only have little grip left and are trying to regrip. Due to centrifugal force the rear of the car slides towards the outside of the corner.
Now if you imagine that the steering rack housing is attached to the car and the rack with tie-rods that attach to your front wheels is just a loose bar, than what happens in a drift is basically that the steering rack housing is moved across the rack bar inside the housing. Since the pinion on the end of the steering shaft (to which the wheel is attached) rides along that rack bar it turns the steering wheel.
Now why do you feel weight transfer through a real wheel? Because of the car becoming a big torque wrench on that housing with the turning point basically somewhere between the front wheels in the middle.
If you simply have normal tyre forces going into a simulated steering rack you're all set in a game. FFB will be pulled from the simulated rotation of the pinion. Which in turn rotates the wheel left or right, which is what the pinion only can do as well. That's all you need to do for FFB... especially on CSWv2 or above devices. Hence I only use a raw approach to my FFB in Project CARS 1 and 2. ;)
Thank you for your insight...I was thinking of upgrading my T300RS to the TS-PC Pacer....I think I will just stay with the T300 for now as there was not enough positive points to spend $999.00 in my countries currency to get the TS-PC Racer.
I think I will use that money towards a 1080Ti.....if anyone reads this...Does R3E still stutter with a 1080Ti???
ImageArtSigns why would you spend so much on a graphics card
Try getting a new CPU to avoid stuttering. It took me three graphics cards before I realised it was because of my AMD CPUs.
well done mate. you really do a great job with these tm videos. no bias. honest and transparent. it's no wonder TM likes to send your stuff! green with envy over here. :D lol.
I bought these wheels :P
Press the mode button + 8 and itll turn the fan on all the time.
is that true? works on pc or just on playstation?
I have the leather wheel so for me it is a clockwise twist of the rocker + mode but yes it works on PC.
yes it works, im surprised they added that feature
I would recommend to replace the fan (or add another) something more better fan (quietter, larger and more rpm). You can improve cooling so much if you want. It expand the lifespan, help failures but may remove warranty.
Hey GM! I love your videos, so keep it up. I just purchased the TS-PC Racer and coming from the T300 and what I have noticed is it is considerably "heavier" even at Global PC Control Panel set at 75% and if I go to 100%, I no longer need to go to the gym for the day because it is a considerable workout! Is there a setting in game (PC2 and iRacing are my main sims) or in Control Panel that makes the wheel not quite so heavy, but still allows me to feel kerbs and other imperfections in the road? Thank you very much in advance!
Dampaning is what normaly makes wheel feel heavy to turn at a basic level , typically you want all dampaning on 0 as T300 TS-PC racer already have dampaning due to the belt in them. Outside of that it would be a case of each game and how strong you set up the FFB. You should join us on a stream some time I can tell you better then or join our discord channel and ask there as we have a bunch of people that are clued up on all the settings and will help you out ! discord.gg/Mn8RQgU
GamerMuscleVideos This is why I think you are dope on a rope and here is a bonus 👍 for you! When is the next stream?
most nights from 5pm or so :P Need to get off my ass and scheduled up but its hard to schedule around tea brakes.
GamerMuscleVideos Well get your ass in gear and make it happen. 😁 By the way, 5pm where? Not all of us are your neighbors ya know. 🍻
I play a lot of F1 games and I not finding the force need it with the T300. Is a great wheel but is just doesn’t has enough FFB when taking curves like there’s not grip at all sometimes. In conclusion I feel like the T300 has a very inconsistent FFB depending on the game. So I want to upgrade to a TGT II which offers more force and it’s basically same motor as the TS-PC base. Have you tried playing F1 with that base is it any good? Thank you!
I am looking to get a used/2nd hand version of the T300. What would you say are some reliable websites to make 2nd hand purchases?
I found out that the PSU that's inside the T300RS suffers quite badly from voltage sag. So I hooked a Mean Well LRS-350 24V14.6A PSU and it pushed to 30 volts using the trim pot. While the T300RS will never use that many amps, the extra headroom that this PSU gives it really brought back some power to the T300RS. I don't have a TS-PC racer to compare but from this video, my "overclocked" T300RS rotates much quicker and has bit more force. My amp and watt meters show power usage went up from around 1 amp to just peaking at around 2 amps. The wheel also benefits by having a couple of dollars worth of heatsinks on the main silicon and mosfets.
You should consider making a video about that mod of yours. I bet loads of people would be interested, at least I am.
I have a question,
I own a T300GTE and I have been adding extras to it over the length, I currently want to add the TSPC Racer Wheel Rim to my arsenal as I quite like the look of it. Problem is, I race on PS4 and heard that the TSPC rim isn't compatible with the PS4 system? Is this true?
Its tspc it says in the name pc. Its for pc only not ps4 or xb1 compatibility
I really like both of them. Which one would you suggest is best for drifting? I am currently using the T150 which is too slow in rotation, so I often struggle to catch a drift, so I want to get either of these as a replacement.
drift ?? ... DD
@@THESHADOW97139 I wish... very expensive to get in South Africa. ☠🥺
@@HorrorbleDriver ??!!!
@@THESHADOW97139 he means Direct Drive as in DD. It’s the best wheel on market
Hey man, I have the T150 as well, I didn't know a more expensive wheel like the T300 will rotate faster which it sounds to me will make you better at drifting? I'm learning how to drift too and struggling a bit. Looking to upgrade soon to the TS-PC, here in the UK the difference in price isn't big.
After having force feedback lost in middle of a race, I decided to go back to fanatec again. I was very happy with my csr back in the days. Clubsport is very nice but also very expressive unfortunately. I owned the t300 for over 5 years.
Same here, deciding whether to go with the clubsport
@@Cagefighter i think it's the sweet spot. Not as experience as DD wheel but the feeling is very close. The only reason you want DD is when you need more ff strength.
What is feeling compared TS-PC to CSL Elite,when you move it slowly,do you feel every tooth on belts and gears,if you know what I mean,because i'm not paying 600eur for that feeling,you can test that when driving straight and try to move very slow or playing ETS/ATS games,atleast G29 is better in that case than T150 Pro(same price range). Thanks in advance! :)
All over the internet is to stay away from the T300 because people have gone through 2-3 wheel bases in a few years. I have a G29 and love it, though I'd like to upgrade. You speak of reliability, but it seems the TS is better no?
People do not understand, that you should not put an ffb at the bottom .... the engine will therefore continue to heat up
@@THESHADOW97139 what do you mean?
@@IJFJJAJI That we must avoid setting the ffb to the bottom, because the engine will heat up, that the original cooling is insufficient, that overheating the engine will amplify the problem ... which explains certain malfunctions of the T300, see the destruction of the electronic card, which controls the whole.
As a result, youtube is full of videos, showing faulty wheel settings, or total losses of ffb.
The problems are known, the solutions too ...But strangely, some countries are all unaware, while the product leaves their home 🤨
4 years already with my g29 steering wheel and its still working awsome for me !!! what the point of getting stronger steering wheel like DD then run it in 12 percent of gain like the video i saw in simracing channel
TigeRRacing imersion and simulation
thing is, 12% of a DD wheel means like 10x the power, smoothness and detail of a G29. there's really no comparison
G29 is trash. They are slow,loud,not smooth and g29 and g920 have 10-20% dead zone from center. So you turn left or right 10-20% the wheel does nothing. Logitech just feels like a cheap toy the pedals are trash even after taking out rubber stopper in brake. Logitech shifter is like a 5year old toy and you cant even buy different rims from Logitech. Thrustmaster is 1000% times better then any Logitech if you get t300 or tx servo base and higher models.
@@SIMRIG412 nice essay
@@emidex8721 :D well short paragraph not essay
You were too civil back in the day😆☕
My T300RS is very loud and the fan starts even after few minutes of playing with FFB set to 70% only. It is very annoying but i tried to send it back and get replacement and it is the same. So can someone confirm if TS-PC is actually quiet as the PR marketing stuff says? Or is it the same or even worse? thanks
that is normal for t300, i always keep fan turned on so it does not overheat.
Im trying to decide great review vids GM just dont care for Fanatec club sport support, turnaround an more investment
I'm on my second T300 base. In R3E (new M6) and with fan manually on there is sometimes a 'clunk' sound when turing the wheel past 90 degrees or so. I dont know if this is due to the FFB strength in R3E or a sign of something going wrong...
My wheel had a dodgy bearing from the factory that had this problem aswell. also the axle was not centered in the casing because of this, thats the easiest way to tell if the bearing on the rear of the axle is fucked. aside from that i had problems with the wheel going offcenter just a tiny bit because the belt slips a fraction on the cog. and since yesterday it died all of a sudden. quality wise its a shitty product
did you end up getting another one or did you go els where ??
My old t300 suddenly dies and the replacement do the same things.
How can a T300 be reliable when it clearly have overheat problem?
It's not reliable, it's flawed in design. TM have opted to go this route for aesthetic reasons and to fit a price bracket.
I've upgraded the brushless motor on mine with a SkyRC one I had laying around, spliced a cpu and 120mm case-fan together on the 2-pin header to cool the motor and power supply.
My advice to t300 users is to take the "lid" off and put at least a beefy fan on the motor.
The thermister will not trip due to overheating any more.
@@frankdiehl8749 would love to see a video tutorial on this
@@frankdiehl8749 That's why I'm thinking of getting the TS, so I don't gotta go through that bs. I'm not smart enough to upgrade the T300 if I bought one.
@@Philminator Yeah, at this point in time, I'd say there's better options, though as always it depends on budget.
Higher tier Thrustmasters are not exactly cheap, maybe just go straight for the new CSL DD? I've heard say that the TS-XW I think it was, is quite "notchy" feeling, end of the day it's belt-driven. I think the T-GT(ii) is quite nice but expensive.
As I said, if you're yet to buy one, maybe just go for the DD right away.
Then keep in mind you're being Fanatecced in the pooper by having to get the "souped-up" power supply to achieve the 8nm of torque. Also rims are not exactly free.
@@frankdiehl8749 Thanks. I am on Fanatac website, and wow the prices are expensive lol. Canadian dollars it's about 300-400 for a wheel, about 1200 for cheapest wheel base, and that doesn't include the table mount or pedals. My total budget is about 700-800 USD which is about $1000-1100 Canadian in total. Wheel, pedals, and base.
do you know where the CSL elite fits in between these two?
Where does the TMX slot in? Consider wheel only, not the pedals (since I got the pack with the better pedals)
TMX is worse than the T300 and the TX
- the TX is basically a T300 but has a chip to make it work with Xboxone instead of PS3&4
- The TMX I think is an Xbox version of the T150
I think the above is correct
Great comparison super helpful
Thanks
The T300 RS Ferrari GTE is the sweet spot!
Its twice the price of the T300RS. I think when youre hitting the $700-800 mark, you should go straight to Fanatec
the ts-pc is better than the csl and all others except the club v2.5
Which base has the strongest torque? T500RS or Ts-PC Racer?
Ts pc
Definitely going to impulse buy a TS-XW
So is it worth to move from a T300 to TS PC Racer?
+TheWinzoz if you want stronger ffb and the rim and don't mind spending the money. Personally though you know you are hooked on simracing it might be better to try and go the OSW route though they cost 1200 or so.
I have the possibility to upgrade my T300 with only 70 euros and only for this reason I'm thinking about this. I know thay a DD wheel is big jump ahead but I don't want to spend so many money for a wheel. I have so many doubts regarding my idea (upgrade) and stronger ffb, less clipping and a little bit more track details will be enough for me.
If you can get the TS-PC racer for cheep then its certainly worth it , only negative over T300 is that it has more coging to its rotation. The F1 rim is realy nice and it makes the cars feel more realistic in some ways having the stronger FFB.
How much more cog/damping are we talking here? I hate damping with a passion.
Does the ts pc have a usb
hi what is this sim game? iracing? r3e? xd
r3e
I have 2 T300s no cpmplaints eh
Why does the wheel spin by itself? That would drive me bloody bonkers.
Force Feedback, Reality???? Did you ever drive a real car on a race track? ;-)
Andreas as a matter of fact yes I have
@@Andreas-nb1ow doesnt make sense its so unrealistic why would you have ffb turned on its horrible i turn the ffb makes me faster
you have convinced me to buy the Logitech g29!!
RTA MOTORSPORTS G29 is amazing reliability......
One went thru 9 t300 wheels, another went thru 12 to first guys surprise loool.
9 of my friends have t300's broken...... all the time it happeneds
SIM RACING IMPROVEMENTS wow! I've had my tx for a long time with no problems, guess I got lucky! I am really considering this wheel base though.
RTA MOTORSPORTS take my word...... buy the t300 !!!!!!
You just go ahead Abdi google T300 problems or t300 broken and read gigabyte of websites posts stating what I say....
Don't believe what I say
I have T300 Alcantara 599XX edition. Best value for money if you ask me. I am using this wheel every day for more than a year now. Never did I have any problems with it.
Every wheel on the market have some issues. My friend had G29 two times repaired. Internet tend to over exposure things.
Main flaw with TC-PC is a lack of compatibility with consoles. For that kind money is it a bit stupid on Thrustmaster side.
Lots of input lag, innit? Maybe buy a low input lag tv for christmas? :)
Leon S they are separate recordings there is no way to tell input lag from this video.
Wtf are you doing there jesus
testing the ffb in the wheel dumbass
sounds like my G25... 0.0
I bought the g29 and was fucking annoying, I just returned week after and got t300 omg what a difference.