It’s not every day you see an aviation investigation rockstar like Greg Feith! (Hear all the screaming girls?) This man single handedly made aviation safer. I know Greg had a lot of great support but I thank Greg every time I fly.
He's smart, he's a legend, and he's still easy to look at, even at 67. Just look at those eyes. Oh, and whenever they talk about the inaccuracy of the NTSB report, he calls them B.S. Nothing says, "y'all report sucks" like an angry former NTSB investigator. Might be why he and John retired from there.
I just discovered your podcast and really enjoy listening to it, it's a real hidden gem. I work in a completely different field, but the insights on flight safety are very interesting and so valuable. I think anyone can learn something from the way that aviation approaches safety. Thank you for sharing your expertise!
I recently discovered this channel. I am not a pilot, just an aviation enthusiast of many decades and this report as you stated, doesn't even tell me anything could not deduce as a non-professional. We unfortunately have no civil aviation in Ukraine for almost 3 years now due to the war and among all the other bad things here like the constant trikes, for those of us that love flying as passengers, it's just something we have to miss out on for the near future. Cheers, really enjoy your work!
@@FlightSafetyDetectives I subbed immediately upon discovering the chan. I was very excited to find that Mr Feith was a co-host, I remember him from the show "Air Crash Investigations' on TV, he was my favourite regular NTSB representative on that show, always very authoritative and I always wanted to see more of him on that show. Now I get to see him all the time on your great channel!
This is the MAIN point of Dan Gryder's complaints about the government. Despite all of their NTSB reports, they don't explain what happened and don't offer ANY changes to training and recurrent training, to reduce accidents.
🤡 The report clearly states: "The airplane was not approved for spin maneuvers; however, the airplane’s flight manual provided a recovery procedure in the event of an unintentional spin. The circumstances of the accident are consistent with an inadvertent spin and loss of control while practicing an aerodynamic stall. Because the airplane was not approved for intentional spins, it is unlikely that the flight instructor had ever experienced a spin in the accident airplane make/model and was therefore likely unfamiliar with its spin and recovery characteristics." Embry Riddle and others CAN learn from this, and there is NOTHING ELSE that can be determined from the available evidence! Stop blaming the NTSB or their budgets for their understandable refusal to speculate in the absence of facts! 🤡
I was going to say the same. I like Dan, and I appreciate how blunt he is. I recommend these fine gentlemen to those folks who don't like how blunt Dan is.
Watch what you say! Dan saved my life when I had a engine roll back during take off at about 300ft AGL from carb ice in 2021. I wanted to turn around and land on the runway that I just departed but his voice in the back of my head said go straight ahead and I did and luckily I walked away and the airplane is back flying again today.
I had a "student" back in the early 70s. He was a bright guy, an electrical engineer as I recall. I was a young twenty-something CFI practicing power on stalls with him. As he was performing a climbing right hand power-on stall in a C-150, he wasn't holding enough right rudder to correct for the P factor. As a result, the stall broke "over the top" and we began to enter a left hand spin with almost full power. He immediately let go of the controls and grabbed my left thigh with both of his hands. I think I still have the claw marks to prove it. Of course, I promply recovered. Instead of going home, I gave him the choice of doing the maneuver again. He chose to do so, this time using the correct amount of right rudder. I believe we were about 4K AGL at the time. These things can happen quickly and the CFI must be prepared to take over proficiently and competently.
It's tragic enough that two young people with their entire lives ahead of them were killed in such a manner. The NTSB report renders their deaths meaningless. That makes the tragedy even worse. As Greg said, "There is something to be learned from every single accident." What lessons can possibly be drawn from a report such as this? Shame on the TDSB!! Love your work, gents. Been following all three of you since the Mayday series. Glad to see you are continuing your good work! It is this kind of content that actually does save lives. Well done, and don't stop doing what you are doing!
Gents, good to see & hear you, & the big time for highlighting the weaknesses of this investigation & report. As a retired NTSB regional air safety investigator, this was one of my biggest beefs w the agency. Yes, we were under-resourced, but there's more to that story. The mgmt is still stuck in the 1990s, when part 121 accidents dominated. Those days are gone, yet the NTSB mgmnt, structure, & staffing are still 121-centric, & GA/91 gets short shrift. The agency resource allocation is outdated, and the agency's will to reallocate & focus more on GA is essentially zero. More frustrating for me personally were repeated occurrences of me doing very thorough investigations & reports, only to have significant portions of my reports deleted prior to publication, or being told I was "overinvestigating" and prevented from conducting the necessary investigative digging. But I couldn't change the agency mindset; its going to take a strong groundswell of complaints & pressure from the stakeholders
I got my licence in 1978 and flew for 35 years, mostly tailwheel, mostly aerobatics. Back then, spins and spin recovery were part of the basic licence syllabus. Applying power in the spin as happened here will raise the nose and flatten the spin, delaying or preventing recovery. Vince C.
Seriously students and instructors, if you are not man or woman enough to get spin and basic aerobatics training due to "fear" you are not aviation material. I'm sorry to be blunt, but it is a fact. With proper training you desensitize the natural visceral reaction to unusual events (i.e. fear) and replace panic with 'the right stuff', that magic sauce that keeps you alive.
@@scottriddell7893 Are you a pilot? I don’t agree with your assessment. CFIs are required to take spin training, but students and regular pilots are not. They are taught to avoid them. I have been in one incipient accidental spin, and my instructor was an old RAF pilot and he helps me get out of it.
@@schpere58it used to be the case that spin training was part of the PPL curriculum and even the standards I believe. Although I will admit it looks like it ended in the 50s
For this it means you have to have a fight school with access to aircraft that are approved for intentional spins Many flight schools around here use piper pa-28-180 which are not approved for intentional spins. So the curriculum is focused on not entering a spin to begin with , staying coordinated at all times is repeated over and over
@@jmizzonini Correct, I got my PPL in 1988 in a 152, which is also called the aerobat and is approved for spins. I got into one incipient spin once, by accident (i.e. cross control stall), and my instructor then was a combat pilot for the RAF in WWII and he helps me get out of it. Lesson learned! In that particular plane, if you are high enough, you simply pull engine to idle and let go and it will correct itself, or you can idle the engine, neutralize the controls, rudder opposite the spin and then push forward to break the stall and then full power.
Hello Flight Safety Detectives !!! this is the first time I make a comment, but I´ve been following you since a while. Congratulations !!! I love your channel, you´re doing a great job and great contribution. I´m a pilot, I flew 24 years in an airline and I still love to learn, read, study. What I´m afraid of, is the explosive growth of the aviation industry. Has this deteriorated the training programmes´ quality? thank you so much
Panic kills, so does the 1500 hour rule. I foreword the motion that the FAA be required to release any and all video evidence filmed from inside the cockpit of these GA accidents. Most people record training flights nowadays, there’s simply no excuse to keep that from the public. I understand the morbid nature of this request, but we can’t concern ourselves with personal feelings during an accident investigation. The TN fly girl accident is the most recent that comes to mind, she had multiple cameras that recorded the accident, unfortunately the FAA is keeping those from the public. If even one life is saved from the release of cockpit video, then the reward outweighs any cost. As a former police officer and instructor, I’ve watched unedited videos of officers being brutally murdered. Although it’s always tragic and hard to watch, we learn from them to increase officer safety. The FAA should NOT have the right to restrict any aspect of these accidents from the public. Closing, I have plenty of time in a DA40, it recovers from spins just fine with the proper PARE recovery procedures, as long as your W&B is within limits. Shame on the FAA for these horrible investigations.
My CFI's job is to prevent me from killing us both. Hole 1: I don't get us into an unusual attitude Hole 2 : CFI intercepts me going into an unusual attitude Hole 3 : CFI recovers from unusual attitude As a trainee, there is no backstop behind the CFI. Mine have been wonderful.
This is just pure speculation, and the part that gets me is the increase in power. The student didn’t understand the procedure for spin recovery with PARE, and upon entering the spin instructor calls out power and he mistakenly increases power instead of power to idol, it would’ve exacerbated the spin, and nullifying the recovery
i bought a royal duke turbine a while ago i needed instruction on how to fly it.i have owned dukes before but a turbine is a lot different.i have over 2500 hours in a piston duke, but i didnt feel safe i was lucky ihad the test pilot for the company do the training. there was a young instructor on the field next ddoor who was like 30 had his instructors license for about a month he had over he was proud of it he said i have over 400 hours i said good for you ihave over17000 hours well a few weeks later i heard he killed h imself and his student. ntsb said instructors fault. what i see is too many young instructors know it all think they are gods gift to aviation,. i learnevery time i get in my plane but according to other young instructos i have met they are arrogant. know more than you do and and he told me he has the power to have anyones license revoked lol i went you are a fn idiot, you will get yourself killed well he didnt but he did crash the plane i heard. young instrucktors are dangerous, i am 71 like i said i learn something new everytime i get in one of my planes. i wouldnt let a young instructor near my planes, or me. i prefer to have someone who has some experiance in type.and they are always more interested in their you tube videos and getting face time. i sure as hell wont let a 20 somthing young lady instruct me. they only have 200-maybe 400 HOURS. that is not enough experiance in my book, o dp not got o flight safety or anyother school, i get my yearly check rides from the faa guy who has a lot of hours. i do not take schooling i never have. and ihave flown my planes to europe i am taking my duke to italy after the 1st of the year. also taking my test pilot instructor.
When I was trained as investgator, by great Americans (80"s), they warned us that both pre-mishap and post mishaps investigations would meet with resistance from individuals and organisations. So much so, that a trend may develop where investgation findings will be softened to please stakeholders, rather than present cold hatd fact. This trend is now deeply entrenched in aviation world wide.
Excellent show, as always. I’m a PPL with instrument rating and have never experienced a spin, which makes me wonder how an unexpected but developing spin might first appear in my 182. I’d like to know what you think about the simulation of the spin entry and whether it tells you anything about the control inputs leading toward the loss of control. To the untrained eye, it seemed like the simulation of the stall included a fairly benign spin entry (I’ve never flown a Diamond), followed by a rapid but non-linear acceleration of the spin. Obviously, adding power was a pro-spin input, but the way the spin accelerated and slowed made me think the right rudder was added, too, to accelerate the spin. Since the NTSB tells us so little, it would be helpful to know your educated guess about the likely control inputs that would be necessary to develop this spin… Keep up the excellent work!
I did my basic training in 1990 in a PA-38 Piper TramaHawk. I do not recall, spin prohibited placard in the airplane, but it was common knowledge that if you spend more than one rotation you were in for six before you could recover. Obviously we never practice spins in Tomahawk. I wonder if the DA 40 had similar characteristics in that there just wasn’t enough rudder to counteract the spin. Another point is it a natural tendency to try and correct the spin by adding aileron opposite the spin. Of course that will just make the situation worse.
How tall was the instructor? Could she reach the pedals well enough for full deflection? There is a moment of hesitation in the developing spin where it was arrested but redeveloped. Was she able to fully deflect the rudder? And centre the ball.
@@kittichord You are applying logic, where logic doesn’t work. NTSB are government workers who do the LEAST possible work and thought to not get fired, and even then, they cannot get fired. Hell, we don’t even fire dumb thoughtless generals that don’t know how to withdraw properly (from Afghanistan).
The questions should be posed to those who are not asking the questions. Until that changes, nothing is going to change. Its always interesting to me that we expect a change when nothing is changed. We're not the best(humans) when it comes to learning. I'm mean truly learning. There are so many examples of this fact, not just in aviation. Thank you Gents for your wanting wisdom to improve and to see positive changes, especially as it relates to saving lives.
Your points on the report are most valid. However, did I understand that the CFI had not had spin training during CFI training? Who signed the CFI off for spin training? If no such training, how did that get past the DPE? I have a couple of thousand hours in Diamond products:DA-20, DA-40, DA-42, DA-52. The DA-40 is a very comfortable airplane to fly. The plane flies "by the book" in the approach to, during, and recovery from a stall, be it power on, power off, or accelerated. A frozen student on the controls? So many questions to be answered here.
It would be interesting to me to compare this poor accident investigation and report with a similar stall-spin accident where, in your opinion, the investigation was thorough and the report well-written pointing out what factors were investigated and why and what facts the report included that not only led to a supportable conclusion but also helped the aviation community.
I would actually argue a good preflight might have solved this accident. in this case, not a technical preflight of the airplane, but a thorough briefing of the scenario they are doing and what sort of outcomes they can expect. for one thing, if the instructor did a good brief, he would have looked and refreshed in his mind the spin recovery procedures, which alone, might have saved the day... a preflight is not just checking if all the parts of the airplane are in place, it's also about checking if all the parts of you as a pilot are inside that cockpit and intact
What of by chance "the student froze up?" Not allowing the instructor the ability to implement proper procedures? I didn't hear of that as one possible observation.
Current FAA regulations are a joke. Big money wants to sell airplanes, it could care less about flight safety. My PPL is dated 1966. Spins, rolls, loops, partial panel, inadvertent entry into IMF, were all part of my training. Perhaps all the flight instructors back then were WWII or Korea jocks and demanded quality from their students. None of the pilots I trained with crashed due to loss of control.
I do not remember any spin recovery discussion/training for the power pilot training....but...as an ace in the hole....I had a mad Chech from Purdue University in the late 70's give me rudimentary spin training in a glider. The glider was more or less spin proof so he would put it in an aggravated spiral and give you the airplane to demonstrate spin recovery. Covered my butt when getting ready for the check ride over 20 years later and like an idiot I thought someone would really ask you to do full power on stall with with full flaps....trust me it's an invitation to to spin entry and mucho pronto, if you don't have the recovery procedure drilled in your head the seconds soon wasted will wind up the end game. When I do any work where the angle of bank is high and plan to do any spin work I get the parachute out and I start high.....real high...
There is no information of the relative size of the pilots. The female instructor could have been large fit and strong and the male student skinny and weak.
@christopherrobinson7541 from my understanding it was a female instructor and a larger male student (Liberan maybe). It could have been the wrong video.
The NTSB only looks at the accident itself and try to put the pieces together, talking to other people about the instructors attitude, and training would undoubtedly have taken place anyway. What training aircraft must have is a CVR and a black box installed.
You must! You simply must take the "FREEZE" out of piloting an airplane. Stall spin training is an absolute must or should be. There are to many young fliers dying when they get into events such as this. Why doesnt the NTSB get more involved in the lessons needed to be learned? A second thought I have is becoming a CFI seems way way to easy?!! Thoughts? And as usual we love you guys! Love this channel immensely 😊😊😊 I want to add and ask an honest question? Is it sexist to say maybe women should not train male students because of the differential in strength? Meaning if a male freezes is there anyway a female can over power a "Frozen" male on the controls? I hate to even ask this given the air in the world today, but I've seen several male students who froze who had a female CFI and they weren't able to over power the frozen student until they hit the ground. Just Seriously posing an honest question.
I know John referenced issue of NTSB resources - is it the case that there are just too many of these accidents nowadays to allow for the granular investigation that each would ideally warrant? In other words not enough money / staff / other resources to facilitate more detailed accident investigations and reports?
@@patrickoleary2862 No, there are NOT too many of these accidents. The problem is they are not investigating like the guys who run this channel would. They are lazy government workers and they don’t “think” on a bigger picture like we need them to, so they can develop rules and procedures in training and recurrent training to make flying safer for GA.
@RetreadPhoto Another factor is that they are not properly supervised by their employers. It's super cheap and easy to upload data to flysto or another similar service to see what the instructors are doing.
If there was no defect in the airplane, there is nothing spending more money on a 'more complete' investigation could tell us that we don't already know. It can't tell us, for instance, whether the trainee froze and wouldn't let go of the controls. It can't tell us if the instructor panicked. And we already know the 'don't-do's' which would have avoided this outcome. One more report telling us "don't violate the training syllabus" and "don't add yaw to a stall," in an unending line of reports saying the same thing, doesn't add value commensurate to the cost.
there is no value to training stall, only lethal danger. stalls can be tried in simulation. I know multiple local cases of training stall spin death, ironically in planes with parachutes
Why is there a need to put low-hour instructors in a position to show people who are just learning? How many times does this combination of people kill both of them? Even with all you stated in this program, where are the programs to teach these people to instruct others how to fly? They get their license, and rather than get time up; then go straight into teaching.
They could send a test pilot up, or release the certification data/documents, and help pilots of THAT particular airframe to understand what may have happened. Never going to happen. Too much work. Easier to pick through the wreckage.
GA has become no different than Swift trucking company, where newbies are training newbies. The results are predictable. There is a reason that we wouldn't let our toddlers babysit our baby. Common sense seems to have left GA...🤬🤬🤬
It’s not every day you see an aviation investigation rockstar like Greg Feith! (Hear all the screaming girls?) This man single handedly made aviation safer. I know Greg had a lot of great support but I thank Greg every time I fly.
He's smart, he's a legend, and he's still easy to look at, even at 67. Just look at those eyes. Oh, and whenever they talk about the inaccuracy of the NTSB report, he calls them B.S. Nothing says, "y'all report sucks" like an angry former NTSB investigator. Might be why he and John retired from there.
I just discovered your podcast and really enjoy listening to it, it's a real hidden gem. I work in a completely different field, but the insights on flight safety are very interesting and so valuable. I think anyone can learn something from the way that aviation approaches safety. Thank you for sharing your expertise!
Thank you! If you haven’t already, please subscribe.
I recently discovered this channel. I am not a pilot, just an aviation enthusiast of many decades and this report as you stated, doesn't even tell me anything could not deduce as a non-professional. We unfortunately have no civil aviation in Ukraine for almost 3 years now due to the war and among all the other bad things here like the constant trikes, for those of us that love flying as passengers, it's just something we have to miss out on for the near future. Cheers, really enjoy your work!
My prayers are for Ukraine; for you and your people and country.
Thank you! If you haven’t already, please subscribe.
@@FlightSafetyDetectives I subbed immediately upon discovering the chan. I was very excited to find that Mr Feith was a co-host, I remember him from the show "Air Crash Investigations' on TV, he was my favourite regular NTSB representative on that show, always very authoritative and I always wanted to see more of him on that show. Now I get to see him all the time on your great channel!
This is the MAIN point of Dan Gryder's complaints about the government. Despite all of their NTSB reports, they don't explain what happened and don't offer ANY changes to training and recurrent training, to reduce accidents.
🤡 The report clearly states: "The airplane was not approved for spin maneuvers; however, the airplane’s flight manual provided a recovery procedure in the event of an unintentional spin. The circumstances of the accident are consistent with an inadvertent spin and loss of control while practicing an aerodynamic stall. Because the airplane was not approved for intentional spins, it is unlikely that the flight instructor had ever experienced a spin in the accident airplane make/model and was therefore likely unfamiliar with its spin and recovery characteristics." Embry Riddle and others CAN learn from this, and there is NOTHING ELSE that can be determined from the available evidence! Stop blaming the NTSB or their budgets for their understandable refusal to speculate in the absence of facts! 🤡
I was going to say the same. I like Dan, and I appreciate how blunt he is. I recommend these fine gentlemen to those folks who don't like how blunt Dan is.
@RetreadPhotoagreed. Gryder is a joke.
Watch what you say! Dan saved my life when I had a engine roll back during take off at about 300ft AGL from carb ice in 2021. I wanted to turn around and land on the runway that I just departed but his voice in the back of my head said go straight ahead and I did and luckily I walked away and the airplane is back flying again today.
@ is that the first time you heard that?
I had a "student" back in the early 70s. He was a bright guy, an electrical engineer as I recall. I was a young twenty-something CFI practicing power on stalls with him. As he was performing a climbing right hand power-on stall in a C-150, he wasn't holding enough right rudder to correct for the P factor.
As a result, the stall broke "over the top" and we began to enter a left hand spin with almost full power. He immediately let go of the controls and grabbed my left thigh with both of his hands. I think I still have the claw marks to prove it. Of course, I promply recovered. Instead of going home, I gave him the choice of doing the maneuver again. He chose to do so, this time using the correct amount of right rudder.
I believe we were about 4K AGL at the time. These things can happen quickly and the CFI must be prepared to take over proficiently and competently.
It's tragic enough that two young people with their entire lives ahead of them were killed in such a manner. The NTSB report renders their deaths meaningless. That makes the tragedy even worse. As Greg said, "There is something to be learned from every single accident." What lessons can possibly be drawn from a report such as this? Shame on the TDSB!! Love your work, gents. Been following all three of you since the Mayday series. Glad to see you are continuing your good work! It is this kind of content that actually does save lives. Well done, and don't stop doing what you are doing!
Stall/spin training is standard for a ppl in Canada. I was taught stall and full spin recovery before being allowed to solo.
Smart people!!
Gents, good to see & hear you, & the big time for highlighting the weaknesses of this investigation & report. As a retired NTSB regional air safety investigator, this was one of my biggest beefs w the agency. Yes, we were under-resourced, but there's more to that story. The mgmt is still stuck in the 1990s, when part 121 accidents dominated. Those days are gone, yet the NTSB mgmnt, structure, & staffing are still 121-centric, & GA/91 gets short shrift. The agency resource allocation is outdated, and the agency's will to reallocate & focus more on GA is essentially zero. More frustrating for me personally were repeated occurrences of me doing very thorough investigations & reports, only to have significant portions of my reports deleted prior to publication, or being told I was "overinvestigating" and prevented from conducting the necessary investigative digging. But I couldn't change the agency mindset; its going to take a strong groundswell of complaints & pressure from the stakeholders
☹️
I got my licence in 1978 and flew for 35 years, mostly tailwheel, mostly aerobatics. Back then, spins and spin recovery were part of the basic licence syllabus.
Applying power in the spin as happened here will raise the nose and flatten the spin, delaying or preventing recovery.
Vince C.
Seriously students and instructors, if you are not man or woman enough to get spin and basic aerobatics training due to "fear" you are not aviation material. I'm sorry to be blunt, but it is a fact. With proper training you desensitize the natural visceral reaction to unusual events (i.e. fear) and replace panic with 'the right stuff', that magic sauce that keeps you alive.
@@scottriddell7893 Are you a pilot? I don’t agree with your assessment. CFIs are required to take spin training, but students and regular pilots are not. They are taught to avoid them. I have been in one incipient accidental spin, and my instructor was an old RAF pilot and he helps me get out of it.
@@schpere58it used to be the case that spin training was part of the PPL curriculum and even the standards I believe. Although I will admit it looks like it ended in the 50s
@@unclefreddy2009I got my license back in 1981 and we were doing spins on my first flight with an instructor
For this it means you have to have a fight school with access to aircraft that are approved for intentional spins
Many flight schools around here use piper pa-28-180 which are not approved for intentional spins.
So the curriculum is focused on not entering a spin to begin with , staying coordinated at all times is repeated over and over
@@jmizzonini Correct, I got my PPL in 1988 in a 152, which is also called the aerobat and is approved for spins. I got into one incipient spin once, by accident (i.e. cross control stall), and my instructor then was a combat pilot for the RAF in WWII and he helps me get out of it. Lesson learned! In that particular plane, if you are high enough, you simply pull engine to idle and let go and it will correct itself, or you can idle the engine, neutralize the controls, rudder opposite the spin and then push forward to break the stall and then full power.
This has been one of your best reviews/reports. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights.
What's up guys? I've been watching from the beginning. Another great episode. I'm glad Greg is present. Congrats on the new sponsor.
"Spin training takes the suspense out of stalls."
Hello Flight Safety Detectives !!! this is the first time I make a comment, but I´ve been following you since a while. Congratulations !!! I love your channel, you´re doing a great job and great contribution. I´m a pilot, I flew 24 years in an airline and I still love to learn, read, study. What I´m afraid of, is the explosive growth of the aviation industry. Has this deteriorated the training programmes´ quality? thank you so much
Panic kills, so does the 1500 hour rule. I foreword the motion that the FAA be required to release any and all video evidence filmed from inside the cockpit of these GA accidents. Most people record training flights nowadays, there’s simply no excuse to keep that from the public. I understand the morbid nature of this request, but we can’t concern ourselves with personal feelings during an accident investigation. The TN fly girl accident is the most recent that comes to mind, she had multiple cameras that recorded the accident, unfortunately the FAA is keeping those from the public. If even one life is saved from the release of cockpit video, then the reward outweighs any cost. As a former police officer and instructor, I’ve watched unedited videos of officers being brutally murdered. Although it’s always tragic and hard to watch, we learn from them to increase officer safety. The FAA should NOT have the right to restrict any aspect of these accidents from the public. Closing, I have plenty of time in a DA40, it recovers from spins just fine with the proper PARE recovery procedures, as long as your W&B is within limits. Shame on the FAA for these horrible investigations.
My CFI's job is to prevent me from killing us both.
Hole 1: I don't get us into an unusual attitude
Hole 2 : CFI intercepts me going into an unusual attitude
Hole 3 : CFI recovers from unusual attitude
As a trainee, there is no backstop behind the CFI. Mine have been wonderful.
This is just pure speculation, and the part that gets me is the increase in power. The student didn’t understand the procedure for spin recovery with PARE, and upon entering the spin instructor calls out power and he mistakenly increases power instead of power to idol, it would’ve exacerbated the spin, and nullifying the recovery
i bought a royal duke turbine a while ago i needed instruction on how to fly it.i have owned dukes before but a turbine is a lot different.i have over 2500 hours in a piston duke, but i didnt feel safe i was lucky ihad the test pilot for the company do the training. there was a young instructor on the field next ddoor who was like 30 had his instructors license for about a month he had over he was proud of it he said i have over 400 hours i said good for you ihave over17000 hours well a few weeks later i heard he killed h imself and his student. ntsb said instructors fault. what i see is too many young instructors know it all think they are gods gift to aviation,. i learnevery time i get in my plane but according to other young instructos i have met they are arrogant. know more than you do and and he told me he has the power to have anyones license revoked lol i went you are a fn idiot, you will get yourself killed well he didnt but he did crash the plane i heard. young instrucktors are dangerous, i am 71 like i said i learn something new everytime i get in one of my planes. i wouldnt let a young instructor near my planes, or me. i prefer to have someone who has some experiance in type.and they are always more interested in their you tube videos and getting face time. i sure as hell wont let a 20 somthing young lady instruct me. they only have 200-maybe 400 HOURS. that is not enough experiance in my book, o dp not got o flight safety or anyother school, i get my yearly check rides from the faa guy who has a lot of hours. i do not take schooling i never have. and ihave flown my planes to europe i am taking my duke to italy after the 1st of the year. also taking my test pilot instructor.
What about the possibility student froze tight on the controls? I could see that happening given the facts.
When I was trained as investgator, by great Americans (80"s), they warned us that both pre-mishap and post mishaps investigations would meet with resistance from individuals and organisations. So much so, that a trend may develop where investgation findings will be softened to please stakeholders, rather than present cold hatd fact. This trend is now deeply entrenched in aviation world wide.
Excellent show, as always. I’m a PPL with instrument rating and have never experienced a spin, which makes me wonder how an unexpected but developing spin might first appear in my 182. I’d like to know what you think about the simulation of the spin entry and whether it tells you anything about the control inputs leading toward the loss of control. To the untrained eye, it seemed like the simulation of the stall included a fairly benign spin entry (I’ve never flown a Diamond), followed by a rapid but non-linear acceleration of the spin. Obviously, adding power was a pro-spin input, but the way the spin accelerated and slowed made me think the right rudder was added, too, to accelerate the spin. Since the NTSB tells us so little, it would be helpful to know your educated guess about the likely control inputs that would be necessary to develop this spin… Keep up the excellent work!
I did my basic training in 1990 in a PA-38 Piper TramaHawk. I do not recall, spin prohibited placard in the airplane, but it was common knowledge that if you spend more than one rotation you were in for six before you could recover. Obviously we never practice spins in Tomahawk. I wonder if the DA 40 had similar characteristics in that there just wasn’t enough rudder to counteract the spin. Another point is it a natural tendency to try and correct the spin by adding aileron opposite the spin. Of course that will just make the situation worse.
How tall was the instructor? Could she reach the pedals well enough for full deflection? There is a moment of hesitation in the developing spin where it was arrested but redeveloped. Was she able to fully deflect the rudder? And centre the ball.
Perhaps flight schools should do a better job of debriefing their young instructors.
Gosh, I hope somebody from the NTSB watches this video.
@@kittichord You are applying logic, where logic doesn’t work. NTSB are government workers who do the LEAST possible work and thought to not get fired, and even then, they cannot get fired. Hell, we don’t even fire dumb thoughtless generals that don’t know how to withdraw properly (from Afghanistan).
Just maybe the student pulled back and froze.
When I learned to fly gliders in 1974, spin training was *mandatory*. It was on the test.😮
The questions should be posed to those who are not asking the questions.
Until that changes, nothing is going to change.
Its always interesting to me that we expect a change when nothing is changed. We're not the best(humans) when it comes to learning. I'm mean truly learning. There are so many examples of this fact, not just in aviation.
Thank you Gents for your wanting wisdom to improve and to see positive changes, especially as it relates to saving lives.
Your points on the report are most valid. However, did I understand that the CFI had not had spin training during CFI training? Who signed the CFI off for spin training? If no such training, how did that get past the DPE? I have a couple of thousand hours in Diamond products:DA-20, DA-40, DA-42, DA-52. The DA-40 is a very comfortable airplane to fly. The plane flies "by the book" in the approach to, during, and recovery from a stall, be it power on, power off, or accelerated. A frozen student on the controls? So many questions to be answered here.
It would be interesting to me to compare this poor accident investigation and report with a similar stall-spin accident where, in your opinion, the investigation was thorough and the report well-written pointing out what factors were investigated and why and what facts the report included that not only led to a supportable conclusion but also helped the aviation community.
It must be so frustrating for you guys to see a report like that, lacking information I consider quite important
I would actually argue a good preflight might have solved this accident.
in this case, not a technical preflight of the airplane, but a thorough briefing of the scenario they are doing and what sort of outcomes they can expect.
for one thing, if the instructor did a good brief, he would have looked and refreshed in his mind the spin recovery procedures, which alone, might have saved the day...
a preflight is not just checking if all the parts of the airplane are in place, it's also about checking if all the parts of you as a pilot are inside that cockpit and intact
So frustrating I'm not getting alerts for new episodes.😢
Have you subscribed?
@FlightSafetyDetectives
I've had to resub twice. When and if I do get notified it's late or not all. That does not help your in the algorithm.
What of by chance "the student froze up?" Not allowing the instructor the ability to implement proper procedures?
I didn't hear of that as one possible observation.
Stall recovery calls for full power. Spin recovery calls for power idle. Probably confused the two
The stall should have been briefed, but the unexpected spin was probably not briefed.
time wasted until 6:19
@RetreadPhoto Right arrow is your friend.
Could it be that the student "locked" and was pulling up all the way into the ground, and the woman instructor unable to overpower him?
@@my2be4me BINGO!
Current FAA regulations are a joke. Big money wants to sell airplanes, it could care less about flight safety. My PPL is dated 1966. Spins, rolls, loops, partial panel, inadvertent entry into IMF, were all part of my training. Perhaps all the flight instructors back then were WWII or Korea jocks and demanded quality from their students. None of the pilots I trained with crashed due to loss of control.
I do not remember any spin recovery discussion/training for the power pilot training....but...as an ace in the hole....I had a mad Chech from Purdue University in the late 70's give me rudimentary spin training in a glider. The glider was more or less spin proof so he would put it in an aggravated spiral and give you the airplane to demonstrate spin recovery. Covered my butt when getting ready for the check ride over 20 years later and like an idiot I thought someone would really ask you to do full power on stall with with full flaps....trust me it's an invitation to to spin entry and mucho pronto, if you don't have the recovery procedure drilled in your head the seconds soon wasted will wind up the end game. When I do any work where the angle of bank is high and plan to do any spin work I get the parachute out and I start high.....real high...
I believe it was simply overpowering the instructor by the much stronger male student
There is no information of the relative size of the pilots. The female instructor could have been large fit and strong and the male student skinny and weak.
@christopherrobinson7541 from my understanding it was a female instructor and a larger male student (Liberan maybe). It could have been the wrong video.
The NTSB only looks at the accident itself and try to put the pieces together, talking to other people about the instructors attitude, and training would undoubtedly have taken place anyway.
What training aircraft must have is a CVR and a black box installed.
You must! You simply must take the "FREEZE" out of piloting an airplane. Stall spin training is an absolute must or should be. There are to many young fliers dying when they get into events such as this. Why doesnt the NTSB get more involved in the lessons needed to be learned? A second thought I have is becoming a CFI seems way way to easy?!! Thoughts? And as usual we love you guys! Love this channel immensely 😊😊😊
I want to add and ask an honest question? Is it sexist to say maybe women should not train male students because of the differential in strength? Meaning if a male freezes is there anyway a female can over power a "Frozen" male on the controls? I hate to even ask this given the air in the world today, but I've seen several male students who froze who had a female CFI and they weren't able to over power the frozen student until they hit the ground. Just Seriously posing an honest question.
I know John referenced issue of NTSB resources - is it the case that there are just too many of these accidents nowadays to allow for the granular investigation that each would ideally warrant? In other words not enough money / staff / other resources to facilitate more detailed accident investigations and reports?
@@patrickoleary2862 No, there are NOT too many of these accidents. The problem is they are not investigating like the guys who run this channel would. They are lazy government workers and they don’t “think” on a bigger picture like we need them to, so they can develop rules and procedures in training and recurrent training to make flying safer for GA.
There are less GA accidents these days , the number of incidents is actually trending in a good direction (down) year over year
@RetreadPhoto Another factor is that they are not properly supervised by their employers. It's super cheap and easy to upload data to flysto or another similar service to see what the instructors are doing.
If there was no defect in the airplane, there is nothing spending more money on a 'more complete' investigation could tell us that we don't already know. It can't tell us, for instance, whether the trainee froze and wouldn't let go of the controls. It can't tell us if the instructor panicked. And we already know the 'don't-do's' which would have avoided this outcome. One more report telling us "don't violate the training syllabus" and "don't add yaw to a stall," in an unending line of reports saying the same thing, doesn't add value commensurate to the cost.
@RetreadPhoto Agree completely. What more could we have learned with more 2nd and 3rd hand information?
there is no value to training stall, only lethal danger. stalls can be tried in simulation. I know multiple local cases of training stall spin death, ironically in planes with parachutes
Why is there a need to put low-hour instructors in a position to show people who are just learning? How many times does this combination of people kill both of them? Even with all you stated in this program, where are the programs to teach these people to instruct others how to fly? They get their license, and rather than get time up; then go straight into teaching.
It appears that the NTSB employees are still working remotely from home while wearing masks at the keyboard😷
Dump the flaps if you’re going too fast in a spin recovery? Who cares if you’re too fast for the flaps? Really Greg?
At this point the aircraft is owned by the insurance company, do anything to save the crew.
@ I mean, OK but maybe the proper recovery should have been tried first.
They could send a test pilot up, or release the certification data/documents, and help pilots of THAT particular airframe to understand what may have happened.
Never going to happen. Too much work. Easier to pick through the wreckage.
GA has become no different than Swift trucking company, where newbies are training newbies. The results are predictable. There is a reason that we wouldn't let our toddlers babysit our baby. Common sense seems to have left GA...🤬🤬🤬