Regarding friendships becoming expensive: friendships where you can run errands together, walk your dogs together, tackle house projects at one another’s house can be the best friendships. Lots of quality time, inexpensive and you get shit done!
I found making other mom friends to be the best in this regard. "Hey, want to hang out at the splash pad?"and the kids are happy and we sit on the side and chat.
"In my desperation to accumulate friends and never let them go, I spread my love so thinly and allowed myself to be treated so badly with so few boundaries, the act of my friendship itself carried no meaning" I swear to God I am a different person after hearing these words LOL
Something that I learned embarassingly late in life, being in my early thirties now, is that you can love your friends/romantic partners and still hold them accountable for shitty or thoughtless behavior. I used to think a big part of unconditional love was letting people get away with anything, but the right people will stick around, and holding people accountable strengthens relationships. I'm actually harder on people who are close to me than other people.
Real good comment. Yeah, there has been an ultra-individualistic narrative for a while that we just let each other to our own. Sure, but after thirty there's only really time for folks we can align with. So yeah, sure, you can totally make that wild and irresponsible life choice, but the result might be that we can't hang out as much, and I don't want that. It's like we're all on a beach, each with a tiny fire in the harsh winds of life, trying to stay warm. Yet we could all get heat by putting some of our flames together in authentic, intentful, awareness. Not working on friendships is consistently a top death bed regret. I feel lucky to have had a near-death type experience to know I don't wanna live that way. I'm figuring that wishy-washy unaccountable friendships won't tally much in our final evaluations. Stay warm out there! :D
I am the same way in my 20s, and it's cost me quite a few friendships already. The worst part is when I try to hold someone accountable, and everyone else around me closes ranks and tries to prevent it from happening. Like, I am trying to help this person see what they're doing wrong, and you're keeping them from growing! And yet I'm the villain for expressing my opinions openly rather than gossiping about them like everyone else does.
ive heard it called "rupture and repair" and that it's a healthy foundation to all good feeling long term relationships. the rupture is the upset, the repair is talking it out. then, if done well, you feel closer, trust is greater, and things are smoother. rupture and repair. over and over. from leaving dirty socks on the floor to forgetting a birthday. rupture and repair. i wish it were a basic skill taught in school.
As someone who has been chronically single (by chance not by choice) I've found that although I have some beautiful close friendships, they've suffered from my friends being in relationships. It's hard to tell how much of it is just in my head but I don't feel as needed, or cherished, or appreciated anymore. Putting romantic relationships on a pedestal makes it feel like as a friend I'm just a placeholder until a partner comes along. ((My best friend is the exception to this but I'm also very close with her partner))
I completely agree with this as someone who is also chronically single (my choice not by chance in my case). However, I got to know one of my closest friends when she was single, it was a super intense friendship at first which works well for me who struggles to trust. Then she got a boyf (now fiancé) and our friendship became this gentle lull of stability and support which I love.
I feel this on a visceral level. I am a thirty-something year old who is the only person in my introverted friend group who doesn't have a partner. My friendships have shifted over the years from people you could call to get together with and do absolutely nothing to getting together having to be an event because my friends all have that built in "doing nothing" person already. I still love them and love the time we do spend together but the way the dynamic has shifted has implications for me that it doesn't for anyone else.
This is literally how i described it to my friend a few weeks ago, that i felt like a "placeholder friend" because another friend had invited me out, but only because her date got canceled 🥲
I agree. I'm single and live alone and practically all of my friends have partners they then moved away with to another town, city or province. Even the ones who still live within driving distance to me tend to spend their little bits of free time that they're not working, with their partner. Going to an event? They bring the partner. I rarely see them and it feels like they don't even think about me and how I am just here by myself.
Thisssss! I feel you here too. I am also a single gal, and since me and my two closest friends (who are unrelated to each other, if that makes sense) graduated uni and have started building our own lives - I've started feeling quite pushed to the side and sometimes a little neglected because they both, naturally, tend to put hanging out with their respective partners above making time to hang out with me. Glad I am not the only one who has experienced this
I remember there is one episode in Friends where Joe and Phoebe can't afford to go out as much as the other ones in the group. That's a real thing and I think this can be a long term problem. I have never thought about the financial /class aspect.
Elusive? As in hard to find? Or did you intend to write illusive as in illusory or deceptive? Fellow autistic person needs to know, I think you're making a Freudian slip, and I can relate. 😊
Also an autistic person, and was thinking this through the whole video. I've read 'Friendaholic' and enjoyed the psychological aspects even though the experiences weren't that relatable to me personally. Though in my online autistic spaces, it's sad to see every other post asking how to make friends, or vent on severe loneliness. Due to our innate communication differences it feels like no matter how hard we try to make friends, it's next to impossible to connect with others in the way neurotypical folks do, and too often we end up with just ourselves for company - the su*c*de rates and life expectancy for autistic adults are truly alarming. And ghosting seems more common now than ever - it truly sucks to feel like you finally have a connection with someone, or god forbid finally made a friend, and one day they just never turn up & stop responding with no explanation. I'm 32 and just want to find my people but feels like that's never going to happen for me. Always trying to put myself out there, try new things, group activities, be myself, but so far it hasn't worked and just end up feeling more burnt out and lonely than ever.
Oh sorry. That should be Elusive. That's what I get for commenting on my old iPad. She tends to over correct words! Thank you for pointing that out.@@nanimaonovi2528
I used bumble bff to try to find friends near me, I really got on with one girl and she introduced me to a group of people that also seemed lovely. However, after a couple of meet-ups I realised they earned a lot more than me. I had to decline £40 musical tickets, nights out, weekends away. I tried to make as many of the excursions as I could but one day after I’d had to decline another night of drinks, I got booted out of the group chat. I’m autistic so maybe there was a social line I crossed somewhere but I think I just couldn’t afford to be friends with them.
I am sorry that happened to you. That’s crazy that you were priced out of a friend group! I hope that you have luck finding people more suited to your lifestyle. Also..hello fellow autistic person!
I just want to say, I’m neurotypical and friend groups are REALLY tricky. There are always unspoken rules, an invisible hierarchy, and groupthink that can lead to them turning on some others. It’s not easy even for people who aren’t autistic, and it was very likely a Them problem and not a You problem. It’s so snotty to boot someone for making less money. Bullet dodged.
@r8434 There are certain social groups were one isn't broke. Unless there's something with the trustfund or Wallstreet is down again. Nothing I can identify with, but that's reality. Broke isn't even a word in these circles unless you gambled away the Southfork Ranch...
Fellow autistic here, and I've been booted out of friend groups a couple of times as well, and I still am unclear on the why behind it. It's really annoying when people just cut you out instead of having a chat with you about whatever is bothering them. I don't mind not having a lot of friends, and I don't take it personally when people treat me that way (which is to say, I don't think I am the problem in these situations, and I'm probably better off without people who don't even give you a chance to change or explain yourself), but it's still frustrating for a bit when it happens.
I'm an old fart, and I want to sing the praises of volunteer activities. I've found my men's support in two volunteer activities in which I'm involved. It takes time, but there have been men's groups forever. They used to be called things like Leo's Meats Bowling Team, or The Group POf Guys I play Poker With On Tuesday Nights; now they might be Habitat for Humanity or Sunday Afternoons At The Food Bank.
What I find interesting is this difference between "masculine" and "feminine" friendship styles. I'm a man but I think my friendship style fits more closely to the "feminine" style of friendship which tends to be more supportive and intimate than traditional male-male friendships. As a result I find my friendships with other men are often very strong and I've been told by many friends before that before me they didnt have a friend they could rely on for advice or emotional support, which I've always found so sad! So to other men reading this: tell your homies you love them!
I've been thinking that men typically only seek emotional support of the women in their lives, because they're often not socialised to do so with friends. I'm a woman, and I've had a number of guy friends who confide in and depend on me in a way they only do with me or other close female friends, until the point they find romantic partners. A couple other friends have told me this happens with their male friends as well, and if that relationship ends, they will funnel that aspect of their social needs right back to one or two close female friends. What's interesting and rather sad is that some of them are my closest friends and will show support to me in the same ways, once the door is open for them to operate that way in a friendship.
This made me feel both heartbroken and hopeful. COVID obliterated my social circle and social skills. Neurodivergence and class tension adds to the mix and it's a very weird feeling. So many thoughts.
As someone who is in a pretty big friend deficit at the moment (I am a bit too isolated for my liking and I only see other humans about 3 days a week) I have some thoughts on this. I generally agree with the video until we got to the last bit, becuase the bit talking about friendship as something that 'naturally happens' and 'can't be forced' feels SUPER unfair to me. Like I think it's more of a case of you can't force spesific people to be friends. But I think you can TOTALLY manufacture environments to make the likelyhood of friendship higher. I have to believe that friendship is something I can have agency over- becuase otherwise that sort of implies that friendship is this passive thing that just 'happens to people' which I really don't think is true! I think you can make friendship happen by being engaged and showing up for people. And if that's not true then I guess I'm just screwed- becuase the universe isn't doing it's job and passively giving me friends I guess !!!
I agree with you. Especially since friendships require attentiveness and reciprocity, as said in the video, both of which imply some kind of effort, and because without the factor of deliberate effort, we cannot overcome the other things mentioned such as class differences, lack of affordable social spaces and capitalistic work culture. It might be harder but we've got to get creative!
No, I agree. I think sometimes it can *feel* like a friendship formed by itself, but it’s more so the result of good timing and chemistry. And even if a friendship does happen on its own, it’s sure as hell not going to survive on autopilot for very long, or get particularly deep. Adult relationships especially.
yeah it's a very deliberate thing when people have to deal with being autistic, having social anxiety, ptsd, etc. in my case social anxiety makes friendships a real pain because i have to force myself to keep hanging out, and if there isn't really strong chemistry, it's even harder to persist through the anxiety getting triggered. it can take a good while before i feel pretty comfortable, and until that point my "are they judging me? did i say/do something wrong? do they like me? are they lying about liking me?" thoughts are EXHAUSTING
If any media makes it in our corrupt society, it has to be corrupted and enabling of the corrupt. In this case, it seems that they are doing it by obfuscating how much work goes into making friends for people who aren't wealthy, beautiful narcissists.
The lack of 3rd places is really frustrating. The way I've made adult friends is by hosting board game night at my place every week to force that regular meeting/spending time together, but if I didn't I'm sure all my close friendships would just be acquaintances. It also requires that I have a table and chairs and board games which luckily I have, but at least one of my friends doesn't, but even now, if too many people get invited I have to ask people to bring extra chairs and it gets rather cramped 😅
This is not a problem in my home country. When I moved to Canada this issue nuked my life and mental health, and I coudnt even pinpoint it. It is crazy how urbanism affects the most intimate parts if your life.
Making friends as an adult does seem unbelievably hard at times. For a long time I felt like I needed to make new friends because I was missing something in my friendships, but really I needed to be more open with my current friends/family and reach out to them. I am overly self-reliant and struggle to ask anyone for anything so those studies about how important connection is were definitely kind of alarming to me, but I think instinctively I already knew my go it alone approach wasn't particularly healthy.
I feel this heavily. I'm terrible about asking for things. I often don't know what I need, so while I am always available for others, I never reciprocated asking for their support. I still struggle with this. Good luck to you!
I love this so much because I've had the opposite experience. I've realised I've followed the pattern mentioned above of wanting to be pals with anyone I meet who seems similar to me. Of course the way my neaurodivergent brain works though, when I make a new friend based on similarities (pretty much always) I stupidly assume that the person who I share those similarities with is willing to take on that part of me that I share with them. If I'm making friends with an individual who also has anxiety, surely they're also enjoying our interactions because they also like relating to someone who shares those experiences? So, I always make it clear that all my anxious friends can reach out to me about anxiety, because I get it. Where I went wrong is assuming this friend would be doing the same for me. Recently I really needed to go to a friendly face for help talking through anxiety about a social event we were both attending. Not before, during, or after did she respond to a single plea for social support from me. I was desperately reaching out to her begging for some kind of minor anxiety support the way I'd been her Partner in Crime in fighting her social anxiety for years. She brushed me off every time I pleaded for her help, changing the subject, one time literally even to the stuff she was feeling anxious, which, everyone's feelings are valid, but at that point it time it felt so minor compared to what I was feeling, and for a moment I needed the friendship to be about the anxiety that was crippling me and not about whether her outfit was cute and dressed up enough for the bar event we were booked into. Over the years, if we're both relating to being anxious about something, I've alwsys been the bigger person in every social situation and always been the one to put aside so many of my anxieties to be the strong and understanding and supportive friend for her. I realised I partly like this because being friends with her forced me to push myself out of my comfort zone, because there's a 0% chance she's ever going to be the one to go out of her comfort zone for the sake of anything. But that was the downfall of our friendship. After 7 years I was in a time of my life where I couldn't be the support vessel. After 7 years, it came time for me to ask for her support, coz I needed it, I'm so low in my life right now. And her reactions every time I tried. I know that fundamentally her as a person, she does not go outside her comfort zone for anyone or anything, and supporting other people with the anxieties they have, well that is not my friend's comfort zone, so why would she do it? Hearing people talk about their anxiety is a trigger for her anxiety, so if someone talks to her about anxiety that isn't hers, she either has to leave or change the conversation because she finds it too uncomfortable and anxiety inducing to talk about anxiety, if it's not all about her venting about her own anxiety and having people comfort her or resonate with her about her anxiety, that is. She can't be the one to listen to you vent about your own personal anxiety, she won't try resonate or relate to you or empathise with you about your own personal anxiety and she certainly won't be comforting you about your own personal anxiety. So yeah, penny drop moments about my friend over this ordeal, coz why would she care about my anxiety? When it's not even about her?????
Ive been doing a lot of thinking about friendship lately. I'm lonely, and for a long time ive just accepted that it was my fault because I moved away: I'm not as close with people because I don't go to visit often enough. But the point about reciprocity is one I've only recently considered, after a gentle talking-to from my sister. Yes, maybe I dont visit often and it never feels like enough time, but I do it... the friends don't. As my sister said, "dont feel bad that its not enough time with them, if they want to spend time with you, they can. They can visit you". That helped shift something in me, from guilt to (to be honest) anger - which maybe isnt healthy either, but its a hell of a lot healthier than beating myself up. So now I'm trying to focus my effort on those friends who have made the effort with me.
I'm 68 and have thought a lot about friendship - sometimes not because I wanted to, but had to. I've often been hurt and struggled to make connections, and as a result been very lonely. Used ;the usual methods' to try to build connections. But found that friendships rooted in some incidental factor you have in common (work, studying, volunteering, classes, clubs, reading etc) never last once that incidental connection ends - unless there is something more. I used to think that once you had visited each other at home, or had each other's house key then it would be like family. No. It simply needs some (sometimes random) change in one person's life for all that to be negated. No matter how close you feel, it is shallow. And that's OK, because that is life. I had some close friends in my village: 5 minutes walk away was the farthest, and we were very close indeed seeing each other daily. Different social classes, all educated to similar standards, many differences in interest and experiences, but several interests and experiences in common - animals mostly. Many intimate conversations and LOTS of mutual support. When a new man came into one life, we were pleased. I knew before she did that they would get together, and she decided to marry. "We two" were happy for her, and assumed we would go to the wedding - but no. OK, but she never even TOLD us it was only going to be their immediate family. That was simple cowardice and we were shocked and a bit hurt that she didn't have the grace to even tell us. No respect at all! She fell off the face of the planet. It was sad, but I wasn't surprised - I knew that she would drop anything for a man in her life, but our mutual friend was shocked and hurt. Some years after that happened, the 'mutual' friend more or less cut me off - and I never knew why. I learned from another mutual friend how how SHE had fallen out with her over some really bad behaviour from her husband, which our friend condoned. I suspect that perhaps my closer friend felt miffed or self-conscious about what I had learned. I'll never know. I remain friends with the 'third' mutual friend, even though we were never AS close as the ones on the same street, but she has proved more reliable - a kindness I never take for granted. Even though we were very close and they gave me so much, I have had to admit that those friends were not the friends I thought. I knew their foibles and accepted them, but had to accept it when those foibles (or mine?) led to the end of our friendships - but I'll never be ungrateful for having known them. I am quite prepared to end friendships that don't work for me and to make new ones, but as you get older people are less available - they have family and kids they choose to prioritise. I'm pretty resilient now, but yes, I'm not actually prepared to be a 'place holder'. I have better things to do with my time. And in fact sometimes the relationships that are most important are those that are the slightest, that share small kindnesses and very gentle moments of support. Sometimes the most 'incidental' encounters are the most powerful and should be treasured. Perhaps I'm doomed, but I've made it to 68. I've seen far more life-shortening stress from people wanting people / relationships that are unavailable, than I have seen for people who can be complete and happy, alone. It seems to me that the only Permanent relationship that you have any hope of retaining are blood family and even those can sometimes be ... too much! So do I rely on them at all? No, But sometimes there is a small surprise and a warm moment. Perhaps gratitude is a skill.
Thank you so much for sharing this, I feel so seen at 37. Maybe with the internet my generation and later are getting to figure all this out earlier, but I think what you're staying with still hold true, even with better information, this seems to be our nature. The beautiful stories of friendship we see on screen and in books sets us up like Disney does for romance. It's a very difficult part of life to finally recognise that after life starts to settle down, you realise that the friendship pre-30 is its own nature, just as few friends after 30 is the norm. I really do think we can do better, sadly, trauma is rife, and life is so hard that after getting a few crumbs for hard work, there's barely energy for the right people in our lives let alone the wrong ones. We create a cycle of decline through lack of intent and death awareness. That said, I'm scared that even death awareness comes too late for people who made the decision as teenagers to push away and avoid that which would lead to grieving and emotional adeptness. Sorry, your comment brings up so much to consider, it means a lot to feel your awareness and life through the words. Peace and Gratitude to you :)
I’m ace and on the aro spectrum, and friendships have always been really important to me! However, I often feel like the friends I have don’t value friendships in nearly the same way (partly due to them having or looking for partners, and partly, I think, because they haven’t had to question society’s over-reliance on romantic relationships over other kinds of relationships). This video gave me a push to actually try to connect to some new people who want the same kinds of friendships that I do! ❤
As someone who is in a relationship: It's hard to bring balance between friends and a partner. I think that many people are way more codependent on their partner than they think, me included. It's not that I value my partner way more than my friendships, in fact, I often miss my friends and I really crave better connection with other people that are not my romantic partner. I've become more lonely since I am in this relationship, which is mostly on me because I neglect my friendships more. It feels like I'm often glued to the routine that I have with my partner, even though I really want to spend as much time with my friends as I did when I was a teenager. I think it's like that for many people. It makes me feel alienated and estranged from my friendgroups, which makes it even harder to take the initiative to reach out to old friends. It's a sad and isolating cycle that I think many people in relationships fall into.
The biggest compliment my best friend ever gave me was: "You never put your relationship before your friends. You never did." And honestly that is to date my and my partners perspective. Which I'm really glad we agree on. I have always tried to view all my relationships as important. If I love you, even platonically, your in. I still don't know why but I think I just seen so many couples putting so much pressure of being their partners everything in Life that they either lose something or become really bitter when this doesn't improve everything. I get wanting to be friends with people who view friendships as equally important. I have friends who are good at that and friends I know when they get into a relationship I won't see or hear them for a year. Which can actually hurt although your happy they're dating and happy but it makes you sometimes feel like you were good to hang out with while they didn't have an intimate romantic relationship. But I know it's also part of my anxiety of losing people I so deeply care about. So I try to work on this and to check in with people. Thank you for putting my feeling in good words & reading this ted talk.
im in a poly relationship and actually really feel this statement. its because i feel so deeply for my friends. wanting to spend time with people im in a relationship with but not having time for friends. wanting to spend time with friends but them not having time because of their relationships. i feel im spreading myself too thinly a lotnof the time...
I really resonate with this, the bit about capacity is so true! Sometimes you can get along so well with people but it's like, practically how can you show up in a friendship? I feel like it's become more of a thing these days that we expect friends to be 'chill' and endlessly understanding when they can't hang out or text back because 'we're all busy adults but we still love each other' kind of vibe. And maybe there is space for those kinds of relationships but at least in my close circle I want friends who reciprocate my efforts and demonstrate friendship as an action rather than a relationship status.
I agree, that’s fine for friendly acquaintances maybe but nit real friends. It’s not ok to use people or just disregard them when they’re just trying to connect a bit, let alone might need actual support. There’s a cultural trend pushing for this because people want to think of themselves as awesome supportive people who are so loving, but not participate in any of the actual work or emotional investment that requires. They want a pass on basically just being self-centered and lazy.
I'm 25 and have been thinking about friendships a lot over the last year. I spent 3 years living with a close group of Friends, to from the day I moved out practically never speaking to them again. And over the last year since I moved out, I feel like I've had a mental and emotional growth spert especially around my views of friendships and my own self worth. I've regularly said I'll be friends with anyone whose not a dick. I've prided myself on the fact that it doesn't take much to be friends with me, that "if we've spoken for more than 10mins, we're friends now". But now I'm a older (and read that same book by Day!) I've realised all that was, was a complete lack of boundaries. I had made zero conscious choice on who I was friends with, the whole way through uni. I just accepted I was friends with anyone I found myself surrounded by, and then wondered why (especially with hindsight) they didn't value me or flat-out didn't care about me as their friend. I won't be friends with anyone anymore. I'll be friendly with anyone, but there's a firm boundary now because of exactly that part of the book: I have to respect the quality friendships I have. I'm protecting them behind my boundaries, and only letting those I choose to love in.
This is an excellent comment. Thank you. I used to be the same way (meaning I'd be friends with "anyone"). I'm glad you learned the lesson really quickly that it's not a good idea to do that for a variety of reasons. It took me much longer to learn this and I found myself surrounded by people with selfish tendencies. All the best to you.
Love this video, just to add my advice if anyone needs it: have hobbies and interests and be openly enthusiastic about them. You will draw like minded people to you. Open mic nights, folk clubs, knit and natter groups, the WI, volunteer groups, sports clubs, repair shops, walking groups, Zumba classes, Warhammer, board games, nails, hair, drag shows - there will be something. Also, second advice - don't expect anything from a friendship. Some people have more to give than others and some will like you and consider you a friend but maybe only have time once in a while for an in person meet up, if they bail that's a them problem, not a you problem. But communication is important. You're doing great and you deserve kindred spirits and friendship.
This touches on a lot of things I have been thinking about recently, particularly the financial impact of friendship as a single person living alone. Thank you for the extra insight!
Now that Im out of university(in the US) and came back to my home city, I see the struggle of making friends even more. If you dont drive/have a car accessible, you cant get very far because of our car-centric city planning/lack of public transportation. And it really is expensive to hang out with friends because one’s home isn’t always the best place due to having multiple roommates or living with family to be able to afford rent. Every time you leave your home you essentially have to pay for food/water/gas for cars…it’s depressing to not be able to hang out without spending money. Sure older friends can understand the limitations but newer friends you’re trying to cultivate might not care enough to work around the limitations. This is all something Ive thought about for a long time now It was easier in university to make friends of different class backgrounds/ethnicities because there were so many free activities you could go to. Now, thats less and less and you’re confined by where you live
The best friends I made were through environmental campagning. That said, I have a lovely gang of choir friends now. I totally agree with CS Lewis, you make friends qhile pursuing other interests. It takes the pressure off connecting, because you always have a ready made subject for conversation.
Thank you for this video, Leena. I've really been feeling the toll of friendships being overlooked in our society for years now. I feel that because of the economic situation making us having to work so much, suburban living forcing more space between people, and now social media and phone addiction, community and friendships have been neglected. It's also very apparent that many people put a ton of emotional value and work into their romantic partners at the expense of their communities and networks. I've seen this first hand in close friends who suddenly get distant when they have a new significant other. And for chronically single people like me that's very isolating. I think loneliness is another serious issue in society ruining our health in our modern world, along with car-centric infrastructure, excessive screen use, processed foods, etc.
As an aromantic asexual, I really wish that the public discourse about adulthood friendships was... more existing. The commitment, the trust, the needs, the boundaries, how it needs to be mutual and respectful and responsible like any other relationship to be good and healthy. How it's bad to settle with friends on friendships that do not meet your needs. How it's possible to be incompatible with someone as friends (as an aroace I was mindblown after this realization). How you yourself can be a bad friend to someone even without realizing, since there's so little weight put on the adulthood friendships in our society that literally anything counts as "just a friend". Please people, talk.
This was a very interesting topic. I am an outsider with this topic because I have come to realize the older I get (42) that I have never really had friends just associates and I feel most comfortable alone for various reasons. I'm aware it's healthy to have friends and be social at times but I just don't desire friends and I don't see that ever changing. I always enjoy hearing your viewpoint on things thanks for sharing!!👏🏽😊
I have had the thought that social media has lowered the need that people used to have to make friends where they are. It used to be that if you moved, it would be much harder to stay in touch with old friends, and you would almost HAVE to get out and meet some people in your new place. But now, if you move, you can go right on having almost just as much interaction with your old friends as you did before. Maybe not meeting up in person as much, but you can definitely meet up online. You can still have daily updates on each other's lives. It removes some of the motivation to put in the work of building new friendships. I also think, for me at least, it can be a little scary to meet new people these days. People can be so volatile and politically polarized. You can't know in advance if this perfectly nice-seeming person is actually going to treat you like trash if they find out what political party you're registered with or whatever. It feels like there's more risk involved in putting yourself out there.
The discussion around class resonates so much with me. I often hear about people making lifelong friends at university but for me that just wasnt the reality. Im from a very working class background surrounded by and experiencing high levels of poverty. Then managed to get good enough grades to go to Durham university. I was very much in the minorty, one of my flat mates in the halls was an actual aristocrat, his dad had a title and the lot. I was so out of my depth. I made friends of course but none of them stuck. I never felt like myself. But then when i went back home I'd kind if educated myself out of my friendship group and was viewed as different to them.
I feel the same way. I love the friends I made at college but our lives ARE so different because of class. Plus they all live far away. My very dear friend who I did feel similar to class-wise, who experienced the world the same way I do, passed away suddenly of an unexpected heart event. He died six years ago. I still miss him.
Ditto, it has been several years since moving halfway around the world and I am only now starting to make real relationships outside work with people. I notice that the majority of people who I have met who are open to friendships are also expats,rather than locals. I do think part of that is that perhaps locals already have full lives, and view expats as temporary. Although the thing that's changed for me recently which has helped meeting people is also for me to stop seeing my own life as transitional and temporary. I wonder how common this is for expats? Does it go on forever or eventually do you think the locals will accept us as one of their own haha😅
I've never defined myself as an expat, but lived in a different country for 13 years and I found that the mindset probably makes the most difference. If you see your stay as temporary, you'll be less likely to form deep connections than when you're properly settled. Saying that, it's easier to make friends with people who share a certain sense of 'otherness' that locals just don't have, but we can fully integrate if we try 😊
@erint5373 @@yellowzora both your comments have made me realise how much I'm still viewing my life/home as "temporary" or "inbetween" when I've lived here for 5 years. I have lots of lovely regular customers at work and work with/do activities with a lot of the same people yet I've noticed how I've kind of kept people here at a distance, I had told myself it was for self-preservation that not every random person needs to know the "real" me (which is kind of fair but what does that even mean) and of course everyone has like a "work/customer service" persona but after watching this & reading your comments I'm starting to wonder if it's just a case of "well I'm about to leave anyway so why make connections here" (in reality I don't even have plans to move) and think it's just made me feel disconnected from people. Damn got some journalling to do. Thanks for reading this anyway & for your insightful comments ❤
I have so many thoughts & questions, the first of which is how are we defining friendship? At what point do you become friends not strangers or acquantainces? At what point does that become "good friends" or "best friends"? And also as an ethically non-monogomous person, it's so interesting to hear people using similar thought processes to consider friendship. More stuff floating round my brain in not useful mush at the moment!
the mush will become useful eventually, that's what I've learned ;) It's good you have thought mush at all :) For me I think I define friendships in several consecutive circles, but for the inner layer they need to be regularly present in my life, able to engage almost any topic I feel I want to talk about and generally kind/want the best for me. I feel like a really good friendship is when you are both big fans of who the other is.
Shasta Nelson discusses identifying types of friendship in her book Friendtimacy. I thought it was a good read. She also has a Ted Talk if you want to try the info on for size.
This got me in the feels. I’m “failing” to keep on top of communication in all my friendships, due to chronic illness and honestly being over capacity in terms of friends vs my brain. Class and differences due to disability and kids vs no kids are screaming at me from several friendships that I don’t want to let go. But by holding onto or trying to form relationships with people despite the circumstances, I’m ending up feeling anxiety just thinking about messaging and just neglecting people who could be positively amazing friends. I think I need these books 😂
THIS. I'm glad I'm not the only one. While I found this video super interesting and it resonates with what I've been thinking about lately, it also gives me anxiety. The experience of chronic illness can be so harrowing as it feels like it strips away most of the common ground you have with friends and people around you. What can you do or talk about when you have no job due to illness, can't go out much or travel or when you're bedbound with so much pain you can't even read much? I know there are possibillites and you can also practice being a good listener, but still, it makes you wonder about the nature of friendship. I'm in a bit of a better place now but the phase where I was bedbound made me realise how hard the friendship topic actually is.
ATTENTION EVERYONE: Shasta Nelson's book "Friendships Don't Just Happen!" is the best book on this topic, hands down. She also has a UA-cam channel with some excellent content ☺️ Lovely video as always, Leena!
Since becoming a mum, it has been so hard to maintain or form new friendships. I am just so tired. There are acquaintances that you Form because the kids like each other. Meeting another adult that has the potential to become a friend is an entirely different thing. I recently met one, we are both mums, the kids get along but we usually meet without kids because we are kind of becoming actual friends. It is just that life is so busy and demanding as a mum and I am just often far too tired to even just get on the phone.
Looking forward to watch this. I've literally tried everything as a working mum to make a new local friend. Actually spoke to someone at a playgroup AND got their number? Invited them to a local walk? Nada. Downloaded an app specifically to make mum friends, messaged several, then got to the point of arranging a meet-up with one? On the day my child decided to nap at exactly the wrong moment but he really needed it and I couldn't move otherwise I'd disturb him, messaged to try to rearrange? Nada, because they were pissed I'd bailed last minute (kind of fair, but they were OTT about it). Met someone through cat sitting for them, they fit my vibe entirely and loved kids and lived like 5 min walk away and I thought, I'll never know if I don't try, so I messaged essentially saying 'can we be friends', they were super grateful and lovely but because of ND issues struggled to reply and now I assume they feel too bad to ever do so again... so, nada! Can't really even blame anyone for these circumstances, because it all boils down to needing two incomes to keep a household running. Can you imagine how much more of a community around you there'd be if just one income was needed?! (whether man or woman, or still both if they want!) I'm so tired of it, and so interested in what you have to say!
I agree it's so hard to make friends, especially in this day and age. I don't have much advice, just keep doing what you are doing. It takes just one person to be the right person. Go often to things like playgroup where you see the same people regularly and start with hi how was your week etc. Not everyone will be interested, but there are also people like you looking for new friends. It takes effort and you have to be quite persistent at the start, like if you cancel plans, make sure you message a couple days later to rearrange etc.
When I read Friendaholic I could relate to so many things she said and it left me completely insecure about myself as a friend. I was a social butterfly in my 20s and 30s, I had so many people around in different social groups, some closer tohers on the fringes, but I was never alone if I didn't want to be and there was always someone to do stuff with. In my 40s things changed dramatically with my life and friends' lives, finding time to hang out got harder and we drifted apart. Then the pandemic showed who are the real friends and then I got overworked last year and only manage to keep in touch with two. Friendships are harder the older you get, especially making new friends. I think the time they mention in the book is about right. We're all careful who we let in and close especially the older we get. Its the question of "is it worth investing time in this?" as so often it wasn't and time is a finite commodity unlinke in my 20s, there was so much time LOL.
A really hard-hitting video Leena, thank you. Friendships are something I struggle with. I spent a decent portion of my twenties feeling very lonely, partly because I moved around a lot for work, but also because I just really seemed to struggle to get past the initial "polite acquaintance" phase. Every workplace I've worked at, also, I've felt like I didn't quite fit in with people, so I've never really been able to build a social circle through work either. I just seem to struggle to tune into people's wavelength. I have social anxiety, which doesn't help. I'm hoping to go back to university to do my PhD soon, so hopefully I'll be able to meet more like-minded people that way.
I love that you’re making videos on this topic! That being said I’m going to quibble with one of your ideas. I don’t think it’s good or healthy to be viewing a total reliance on a spouse (even one you love a lot) as an effective 21st replacement for friendship and community. Expecting your romantic partner to fulfill all of your needs that you would otherwise get from friends is a lot of pressure on one person, and it can have the negative side effect of making people feel trapped in otherwise poor relationships if their partner is their only social connection. As an aromantic person I’m also totally shut out of that model. I do agree that this is a pattern a lot of people fall into, because of the focus society puts in romantic partners (much of which is left over from the days when marriage was more of a business arrangement). But I don’t think it’s one we should just accept as ok since there are less arranged marriages in the world now
Friendships have been very hard for me all my life. But it is going really well atm. I have found an organisation for people with autism to hang out and that has been really good and fun for me.
The lack of free public spaces where people can socialize has become a huge problem in gentrified areas. Fewer and fewer businesses that offer a cheap or free space to socialize can afford to exist- I can name a long list of now closed iconic cafes and pubs in my city that served as meeting places for various social groups for the price of a beer or a cup of tea. These spaces were usually very big, lots of tables, had public restrooms and served multiple purposes for locals- the cafe where I would wait for my mother to pick me up as a kid, a safe place to meet a blind date, where I could study as a student, meet with my knitting or game group, etc. There were always people around, the longtime staff knows me by site, I still see one employee out and about and we bond over our connection to with the cafe where he worked. It's mostly parks now, which means we can't gather outside of people's homes unless the weather is warm.
As someone who lives in America and cannot drive, it’s absolutely crazy how hard it is to make friends if you can’t just drive somewhere on a whim. Public transportation’s is a joke where I live
I've realised fairly recently that I have a bit of a different understanding of friendship to what most people do. I like to think I'm a pretty loyal friend (I have loads of friends that I still meet up with that I knew when I was a child) but I've never felt that friends are people I have to see or speak to regularly. I find that I don't seem to grow apart from people, no matter how long it's been. I can go years and years and years without ever talking to someone (not in a nasty way, just because I don't get around to it) but I still feel like they're my friend, I still see on their social media what they're up to, and when we do cross paths again, it feels like we just saw each other last week. I think this comes from the fact that when I was little I had quite a few close friends who moved away and then I didn't get to see very often. But when I did get to see them, it was lovely and not awkward at all. And I think this is quite a nice way of looking at friendship... I absolutely love getting a text or an email from a friend I haven't seen in ages, it absolutely makes my day, and I make sure that I fairly frequently touch bases with people from my past as well. I particularly do it when I dream about people... I have really vivid dreams, and often I wake up and think, 'I wonder how that person is? Better drop them a line and catch up.'
@@HereForTheCatContent I don't think that about them overall as human beings. I just don't have the emotional capacity to keep up with everyone I'm friends with all the time. What I'm saying is that I don't find that a barrier to friendship actually. I'll always reply if they send me a message, comment on their posts and send them a catch-up message from time to time - and I don't expect them to always be in touch with me either. It seems that for a lot of people, if you go more than a few months without talking to a friend it means the friendship is over - and that's not true for me at all. I have more friends than I have time to speak to all the time, but it doesn't stop me thinking of our conversations fondly, sending them a message on their birthdays, spontaneously suggesting we meet up if I happen to be nearby where they're living or whatever - and when we do catch up, the dynamic is as good as ever. Like for instance, last September I went on a walking holiday with a friend I hadn't spoken to in a good few years, which was lovely - I was with a new partner that she hadn't met yet, her kids were much older than the last time I'd seen them and it was so great to have a good old catch-up. Perhaps some people wouldn't have gone to that because they'd have been embarrassed about not having stayed in touch so much - but I'm not embarrassed about that, and allowing that to be a thing would have cost both me and that friend a happy time. I don't know how long it will be before we cross paths again, but I know we will at some point. I have lots of people like that.
This is a definitive video for your channel Leena, well done. In the future when I recommend the gumption club to folks, I think this will be the video I link to. Bravo. Those friendship time studies have weighed on my mind and my intention with community building for many years now, I was so glad to see them referenced here.
I spent many years in different countries and now my 3 closest friends all live on a different continent to me but we voice note and message often and know all thats going on with each and can talk about anything. Its important to highlight long distance friendships because many times they're even better than the in person ones ❤ I also don't think people always need to be around...its too difficult when people have their own families and other friends and jobs and hobbies. We should normalise seeing or speaking to people when the time is right for everyone rather than when it's best for one. I'd love to see my friends every month but sometimes we can go months without seeing each other and it doesn't diminish our friendship
As someone who also knows what it’s like to have all friendships be long distance ones how have you managed to deal with those times when you’re missing your friends more than usual but going to see a friend isn’t an easy option unless planned far in advance? I find I struggle with this often and I wonder if it’s because for me there’s that connection missing at times. Really look forward to a reply if you give one
@mnickrowe totally get what you're saying! It's definitely hard if I'd love to have a coffee with them and a chat but to be honest I also think that's overrated. I don't really agree with the video where she states she's going to value time spent together over things we have in common. That was a huge problem in my life when I was younger, I spent so much time with friends but we had very little in common beyond proximity. I'd rather call/video call/voice note back and forth with a friend while I'm in South Africa and they're in South Korea and come away feeling heard and like I was there for them than an afternoon having coffee with someone sitting across from me only talking about themselves. I am lucky to have 4 good friends I see in person but the people i love the most are far away and I'll happily text and talk long distance knowing that they really care for who I am amd the thoughts and feelings I have. Seeing someone in person is lovely and seeing them often is great.but its not the only way to have a friendship. IMO 😊
I find statistics really useful, as an ND person, because I often feel like I don't know the difference between friends and acquaintance. But then I struggle with some of them because of being disabled and neurodivergent, I feel like the map for navigating friendships in these scenarios like most things are probably different right? I have just received my care plan and there is a whole three hours a week dedicated to getting me into the community because I don't have great access to it at the moment. But I did join my local spinning and weaving group, I'd say I've made some nice acquaintances but one actual friend. She was younger than me, which is surprising at 26 usually I'm the youngest in group like history associations or specific craft groups. We have met a few times, and once our of the group setting, and will be again soon as well. But after maybe the second meeting it felt like I'd already made a friend. Obviously time will tell if that closeness will happen, but I think with ND friendships they tend to be sporadic, and can build that closeness very quickly with other ND people. I struggle with remembering to keep in touch, and also commiting to plans due to disabilities and stuff. But I love the friends who get that, don't judge, still invite you places and still can call you if they need. Me and my best friend of many years speak maybe once every few months, see each other even less (both disabled, she also has kids and is single mum so obviously time is sparse), but if I call her she always answers, and vice versa. So yeah, I don't know how to absorb information about what makes a good friendship, because I don't know if that looks different for me. And we also tend to accidentally flock together, so when trying to make friends with NT people I find it hard because I don't know what their expectations are of friendship. On the plus side, since COVID we made a group chat for our building on Whatsapp, and though people have come and gone, we have started to build a bit of community with our immediate neighbours in the building. I wouldn't call all of them solid friendships yet, but it does help with being social when you're naturally a bit more introverted!
Yes I find it difficult to make friends who aren’t neurodivergent because I feel like I’m masking all the time and can only fully be myself around other ND people
@@izzy3946I feel the same way. I have become rather active in the local arts community and have found that the people in those groups are pretty relatable and relaxed…and probably neurodivergent themselves.
I think getting rid of the single tax should be more than just a nice idea, I'm not saying that investing in community is invalid (total opposite - more buying houses with friends please!!) But as a single person, it terrifies me that people get stuck in dangerous/neglectful situations because there is no way to afford living alone off a single salary! Because I know how impossible it feels! Definitely agree that with the ability to have connections over larger geographical areas, the cost of friendship for time and money is so real, and a very difficult one to balance!
I'm not at the end of the video yet and I do have a little request: could you please add the studies that you're mentioning in the description? I only see the books [that I've already screenshoted haha] but not the whole studies. Thank you a lot! It's a sign that you're posting this while I'm overthinking about my actual friendships IRL and the way I interact with strangers online haha
Having emigrated to another country, I have found that family is central here to having a social life. People spend a lot of time doing things with extended family groups, bbqs, family dinners etc. Also, if you are no longer near to your youthful connections eg school, youth group etc it's quite hard to replicate those shared experiences/memories when making adult friendships. Add to the mix my Northern British humour, plus being an introvert, and you've got a powerful recipe for loneliness. I'm happy in my own company these days, but it took me a while to make peace with it.
Aw, that's too bad. Are you able to ask someone "hey will you adopt me into your family"? I'm in an area where people have big families and are connected in that way, and it's not that I don't welcome others who aren't technically family, it's just... Well, my family can be a lot. They're weird and a bit loud sometimes. I wouldn't be able to guarantee comfort to my guest the same way that I'd do if we were in another situation. However, I'd be thrilled to have her there, and she can bring her family, too! My different family circles really would be welcoming too. But I don't want to force my strange family on her, or make her feel like I am giving her a pity invite, so it's been tentative invitations.
I recently read Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends, but it just made me feel bad about who I am as a person. I always felt a struggle with friendships growing up because I felt the need to be a certain version of myself that they would like, but I also had the benefit of enforced time together with school or activities. As an adult, I've long understood that I'm comfortable with a small core group and getting along with with a larger group of acquaintances without the desperate need for more. But the geography thing (and working from home) is a real struggle. If I don't see someone every day and I don't have a sense of their daily life, it's like I don't want to interrupt them. And since living situations have kept me apart from most of my friends, there's this level of stress involved to plan Events to intentionally Get Together when I miss just being able to meet up for coffee and a chat, then be home within an hour.
I love the description that friends appear like tan when you're out in the sun. I go out and do things I am passionate about. When you're at those activites you will find people like you. Once you talk enough, start inviting them to things they could be interested in. Sometimes stuff doesn't work out. Sometimes it does. I feel the worst possible way to make a friend is by a friend app as you are starting with idea that you need instant chemistry and that you owe that person something and they owe you something. That's too much pressure! I'm the kind of person who doesnt mind friend rejection but I find I rarely it. Maybe I pick people well! 😅 I usually try to meet my friends at lunchtime at work but post covid that has been hard. If you are lucky enough to work near people you think are cool - invite them for lunch! Most possible are just trying to kill their lunch time anyway and love the excuse!❤ it seems so silly but I dont know many people who do that! Another good option is taking people out for breakfast but in this post covid world no one in my circle goes to work early anymore (while before they would often be there an hour early to beat traffic). I also agree so much on free spaces. I met so many people in university (some who I am still close to) because we all worked on extra curricular projects or events in the same locations. You would just get to know people unintentionally - someone would be there and youd end up with either you tagging along to their thing or them to your thing. But as an adult people are often rushing for buses or trains home to far off locations (indeed due to high rents)
I love this video. I've been thinking really hard about my friendships as a couple of my friends are getting married and thinking about who is/isn't invited, and starting to think about who I would want at mine in the future. More generally, all my closest don't live near me, so it's been hard to find balance between maintaining those friendship and investing in making new friends locally. It might be the first time I've had to put in so much work to make new friends rather than organically making friends through uni or post-uni work programs, and it's fascinated me how the people I'm befriending aren't necessarily the most "compatible" people but the ones who are willing to listen and show up for plans. As my life continues to be more transient, it has me reflecting a lot on my friendships and who I hope will stick around, and who I think actually will.
I used to have a few friends (despite being autistic and socially anxious) then I became chronically ill. When you’re disabled and housebound with no new stories, when you’re unable to go to work or to even to simply meet a friend at a coffee shop or a park, you realise how few people will actually care enough to keep you in their life. They message occasionally, and you feel the need to try and think of something else to tell them other than you’re still sick, you’re still at home, and you’re still existing. And eventually good people, people who you have known and loved for 20 years of your life, people you thought were family, simply fade away.
Came back to watch again because that quote at the end is perhaps the most depressing I’ve ever heard but it is right. Friendship is a side effect of living. I can’t really live anymore - not in the same way as my former friends. I’m literally going nowhere so how could I have fellow travellers - except those on the same journey as me (ie housebound chronically ill people). Those people that live like me - and there is a lot - they’re all at home feeling ill & in pain too. I probably need to stop thinking about this before I start to spiral 😣
As a woman who actively decenters romantic relationships and centers friendship in her life I've found it quite easy to make and sustain friendships. However I'm autistic so I just don't vibe with a lot of people, and even when I do, there's always the chance that I won't vibe with their partners. Therefore I've lost many important friendships when they coupled up. It's sad, but I try to remember I'm here for the ones that stick around.
your discussion of class and seeing friendship as an investment of time blew my mind. when i was at my poorest, i had a very strong and sizable community of friends that i was close to (emotionally and geographically). now that i'm doing *okay*, i'm not poor enough to need other people with the same urgency i once did, but i'm also too poor to stop working and take risks on new friendships. it's really sad, but it looks like i've probably been evaluating the ROIs of human beings. :\ makes me feel incredibly disturbed!
I’m married, live abroad in a country that I don’t fluently speak the language, but I’ve managed to maintain three significant friendships overseas. I have found this is all I have space for right now. Before we moved we had a large social circle we met up with multiple times a week. Now that my life is more intentional I have had the ability to invest in myself and my friendships more. I tried bumble friends and ultimately failed to find a connection. I talked to my therapist about this social pressure to have large amounts of friendships and how it felt overwhelming and how I felt like a failure. He told me if I haven’t made friends yet I probably wouldn’t and I needed to find why. It was because I only had space for the people I already have in my life! Sometimes number quantity doesn’t match up with the quality of your core friendships. Don’t feel bad if you aren’t meeting societal pressures sometimes we aren’t capable of that type of life for lots of reasons!
What your therapist told you seems harsh but true... I have been living in uk for 9 years and made only one friend that I met the first year I arrived. This is so sad.
Thank you for the unexpected push to go to the friday sewcial at my local sewing shop! Im sure theres one ofher newish mom there looking to knit and chat 😊
Oh man, what you said about the relationship between friendships and spending money hit HOME. I’ve been thinking about that too- like, if I want to see one of my close friends, I have to drive an hour away (gas money) and it seems like the only things to do together are go shopping and buy food and drinks. It’s a problem and it really disheartens me.
honestly friendship is so difficult! I've been stressed all my life (after a crappy childhood) of having enough friends, now I'm pretty good with having just a couple that I love a lot... but then I've been agonizing lately about my parents not having that many friends and pulling on me to fulfil a role of being a best friend to them, and I really really finally want to have my own life right now. So I've been thinking that I need to talk to my mom to stimulate her making more friends, but how! Your last quotes were so comforting; of course you can make friends a lot better if you feel good and if you're out there doing stuff and meeting people who enjoy the same stuff! Thank you so much for that, I think I can use that advice for her well!
Finally a video about friendship. Not enough people talk about it and I will continue to thump that friendships are extremely important. However I am not quick to call everyone my friend. I am neurodivergent so I have had many many many failed attempts at making friends but it's the one relationship I desire the most. I have a few great friends now but it takes me months to even consider someone my friend. I gotta feel a sense of ease within myself to call you my friend. I talk to atleast 20 people if not more everyday but i only have about 4 friends and only 1 that knows me inside out.
How we show up by Mia Birdsong was excellent! She did a great job drawing from non traditional/chosen family structures to gives framework for doing friendship better.
Since i got engaged I've been thinking so much about my friendships, because of trying to decide who to ask to be in the wedding party, it's been nice to have an excuse to really examine that and also to have a way to let a few of my closest friends how important they are to me (by asking them to be in the wedding)
I have been listening to the audiobook of “atlas of the heart" by Brené Brown, where she talks about and catalogues the range of human emotions. She also states that fact that loneliness increases the chances of early death by 45%. Really good book. I had a really hard friendship breakup a couple of weeks ago and it really hit me hard. They were my friend I most often interacted with at the time and the loss of that was incredible. Not sure how I will go forward on that yet, but especially the stability aspect of that friendship wasn't there. It is a difficult topic for sure, so thank you for the video!
well, that last quote by cs lewis really killed me lol apparently i have nothing and im not going anywhere dang it im kidding of course but it must feel discouraging for some (me lol) loved the video xx
I finally have a stable relationship and i’m realising I have neglected the whole friend thing even before that. I love my online friends to pieces, but I need some geographically close people. I’ve been trying facebook groups and communities that are for people wanting friends, but people are just twiddling their thumbs as we usually don’t have anything but loneliness in common. I want to join something more interest or hobby based instead! I think everyone gets stressed if friendship is the main goal. my local area doesn’t have much of that so I guess i’ll make my own club (again actually)
What an interesting topic!! As a single, immigrant, childfree person, I actually spend a lot of time thinking and working on my friendships! I take them very seriously so I really appreciate this video. I do wonder how this topic would be read from perspectives that are more communitarian and see kinship and friendship from perspective that aren’t so Western? I feel this video tackles friendship within Global North and heteronormative imaginaries. If anyone has authors that work on friendship from postcolonial or decolonial lenses I would love to read them!!
@@__led That is my question! ☺Friendship has cultural and contextual meanings. I feel Lena draw an inverted relation between nuclear families and the state of friendship but that is only true for a small part of the world! And I wonder how in societies were family doesn't necessarily mean nuclear families but entire communities (say, neighbors are aunties and cousins) if and how this affects the meaning of friendship. Or we could also think of intergenerational frienships where age removed from the equation. I was also thinking of the concept of chosen family among queer folks and its effect on the meaning of friendship. Anyway, so many "non-western" scenarios came to mind but I only have questions and zero answers🤷🏻♀🤣.
This was amazing and something I have been thinking about so much in just the last few days. The algorithm has done it again, definitely subscribing. I'm 27 and I'm only just understanding the importance of boundaries; I've always had strong boundaries if someone hurt me, but that's a pretty low bar tbh. I love meeting new people and find it genuinely sad the human lifespan puts a limit on how many people you can be close to, but I'm coming to realise the obvious: quality is infinitely better than quantity.
Omg this is my favorite kind of Leena video, I'm excited to reconsider everything I think I know about friendship and have a good think after this video!
"Nobody likes being alone. I just don't particularly try to make friends, that's all. I avoid disappointments." Quoting Murakami (I know he's not a favourite for lots of people, but this particular quote made me feel so much I can only love him) loosely translated from my language (not Japanese) back to English
Recently I have found that, despite having a mix of friends who like us have kids and also friends who dont, friendships can be tricky to maintain. However, our non parent friend who is trying to get sober loves hanging out with me and my toddler coz all her other adult friendships are maintainned by after work drinks or boozy dinner parties.
Such a great video and I definitely identify with the whole 'having capacity for people' as someone who is super busy. I WANT to have time for everyone but it's just not possible and I have to get used to the fact that it's same for others too and that's probably why I'm not as close to as many people as I'd like to be.
I've read Elizabeth Day's book and find this topic interesting too. I've always had a few close friends I see usually one to one but after getting a chronic illness a few years ago I barely see my friends, and some of them I'm not sure we're even friends anymore - I have to say no to most social activities due to my illness, I can't go out in the evenings anymore. The friends I still have I mostly keep in touch with via text/instagram which is really good, especially as they mostly don't live locally. I've found that a lifeline. But at times it does feel very isolating, and it's pretty impossible to make new friends when you can barely go out. I've found online forums/book clubs really helpful. Just shows how life events really get in the way or friendship, or make it much more difficult to maintain.
This is great. I've been reading Dr. Marisa G. Franco's 'Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make--and Keep--Friends' and find a lot of throughlines between that and the thoughts and quotes in this video. I'm glad to have new books on the topic to check out!
The number you quoted on the amount of people you can realistically keep in your life is interesting. I feel like I don't have any friends at all outside of work and family, and I've always thought about myself as an introverted person... but I have friendly interactions with at least that many people at work (it's a big company) and another layer of social obligations with family. No wonder I'm spent and don't want to talk to anybody when I get home. I wonder how many people are in the same situation where workplace social interaction are so demanding that they have no bandwidth left for friendships outside of their place of employment. I mean I love my coworkers, but I know if I changed jobs I would probably lose contact with most of them.
I love this topic! Have recently seen my oldest friends starting to work in well paid jobs, and I’m an illustrator currently with no reliable income. Definitely makes a difference. Also I have suddenly got an opportunity for a new friendship - a person that I met in a café and he asked if I wanted to meet up to draw together another time, and I said yes! (Still not sure if he could mean to go a romantic route, so that remains to see)
Enjoyed this chatty/essay style video about an infrequently discussed topic! I watch your first friendship video on repeat after my rough days 😂 Thanks Leena
* realizing all my adult friendships began with work, drinking, or D&D* I once took a break from drinking for a while and after returning to my "cheers," people asked if i was ok and said they were worried when they didn't see me for a few months. It made me feel loved but also concerned that my main social outlet was something that isn't good for my health and isn't always in my budget. Not to mention, about the only places to socialize after dark revolve around alcohol, even if they maybe also involve live music or comedy or whatever. And free, public spaces disappear. If you work in the evening, or even on your days off, if you're circadian rhythm keeps you up at night, there's really no way to socialize and not drink.
Omgeee i am so happy to have found you it fills my guts with tingling, I also get that from super strangely perfectly fitting videos of katherout Thank you for making this video It's truly something good added to the world that was missing and has not been there yet!
I'm really liking the Art of Gathering(currently reading) and I think you have this book Leena, but Big Friendship is so good too! I'm loving this topic and your thoughts around them are bring a lot of questions that I like researching, thank you!
I've been so lucky in my last year (age 28/29) to have made some really close friends just when I needed it (my best friend/old housemate moved abroad). But generally - especially when you work independently/at home - it is SO hard to make friends! I found I pretty much had to say yes to most social opportunities which often equated to an EXPENSIVE social life. Definitely think we need more 'free spaces' to help make friendship and community cheaper.
Loved this video Leena - especially your discussion about having third places to socialise in - Andrewism did a great video about this. I think a lot of the problems in our relationships these days can be put down to capitalism (as can most of our problems in general, lol). Focusing on community-led action is what we should be doing - there's a whole theory called communalism, which I've made a video about, which suggests our social and ecological problems will be solved by grassroots, community-led, horizontal action. I think our friendships could be so much more fulfilling in a world which doesn't prioritise profit and hierarchies.
I feel this. I want to see friendships highlighted in the media we watch more as well. They are always sidelined in favour of romance and family, but both those things can so often be things you choose.
Excellent topic and thoughtful take on friendships. The lack of inexpensive third spaces and long working hours really put things in perspective for me. I see my best friends only a handful of times a year, but see my coworkers more. Although some of my coworkers have become good friends, it’s nice to see people outside of just work and school.
I've always thought of friendships as just people that I can pass the time with and vice versa. Of course we have to enjoy each other's company and build some trust etc. But aside from that I don't really expect/want them to be involved in my actual life.
This is an outstanding video Leena. I've spent a lot of time thinking about friends, in all the rhe ways you've spoken about. How, where, capacity, conversion from acquaintance to proper friend. Im glad there are other people thinking about it too. It makes me feel a bit less lonely actually. I've worked really hard to make new friends and keep old friends, which has worked but it doesn't stop. There's no end point to this task, but when you're in the middle of a really excellent conversation you know its worth it.
Just loved it. You are super well spoken and articulated, girl! Just bought friendaholic because of ur video. And the quote at the very end from CS lewis: beautiful.
Thanks Leena for the reminder of the importance of friendships! I've always wondered why when I was so busy with life, I had more friends than when I had all the time in the world to myself. Shocking realization, but not a hopeless one!
The thing that really tickles me is that smoking is so easy. You have to chose to do it and then do it. Making friends is so much more difficult and stressful. I had my period in life where I flailed desperately to make friends that I eventually got dangerously depressed. It wasnt until I learned to stop banging my head against the wall and just focus on myself. Still lack close friends but my mental health is so much better.
Dunbar's work is always haunting for me because when I was teaching I had about 180 students. There's so much talk about planning and class size but no one ever acknowledges that having people teach six giant sections of middle school social studies (for example) means that teachers are going to be continually overwhelmed even just socially and kids will never get the support they need.
Enjoyed this topic, and got me to step back a bit and examine my commitments to stuff like my romantic relationship vs my closest friendship vs friendships. But also PLEASE I might die if I don't learn where you got your earrings (and similar peach coloured ones you've worn in other videos)!!!!
earlier this year i finished reading the book The Good Life: Life-Changing Lessons from the World's Longest Study of Happiness and it made such a compelling but compassionate case for social relationships being the key to health and happiness. i cried so much.
Regarding friendships becoming expensive: friendships where you can run errands together, walk your dogs together, tackle house projects at one another’s house can be the best friendships. Lots of quality time, inexpensive and you get shit done!
I found making other mom friends to be the best in this regard. "Hey, want to hang out at the splash pad?"and the kids are happy and we sit on the side and chat.
Yea those are the friendships i want, but the ppl i know think thats weird and boring so don't want to do those things. 😔
The fact she said discussing friendships is not trendy says a lot about where we're at as a society.
@@au_clair_de_la_luneI hope you get to know some new people soon
"In my desperation to accumulate friends and never let them go, I spread my love so thinly and allowed myself to be treated so badly with so few boundaries, the act of my friendship itself carried no meaning"
I swear to God I am a different person after hearing these words LOL
Something that I learned embarassingly late in life, being in my early thirties now, is that you can love your friends/romantic partners and still hold them accountable for shitty or thoughtless behavior. I used to think a big part of unconditional love was letting people get away with anything, but the right people will stick around, and holding people accountable strengthens relationships. I'm actually harder on people who are close to me than other people.
Real good comment. Yeah, there has been an ultra-individualistic narrative for a while that we just let each other to our own. Sure, but after thirty there's only really time for folks we can align with. So yeah, sure, you can totally make that wild and irresponsible life choice, but the result might be that we can't hang out as much, and I don't want that.
It's like we're all on a beach, each with a tiny fire in the harsh winds of life, trying to stay warm. Yet we could all get heat by putting some of our flames together in authentic, intentful, awareness.
Not working on friendships is consistently a top death bed regret. I feel lucky to have had a near-death type experience to know I don't wanna live that way. I'm figuring that wishy-washy unaccountable friendships won't tally much in our final evaluations.
Stay warm out there! :D
I am the same way in my 20s, and it's cost me quite a few friendships already. The worst part is when I try to hold someone accountable, and everyone else around me closes ranks and tries to prevent it from happening. Like, I am trying to help this person see what they're doing wrong, and you're keeping them from growing! And yet I'm the villain for expressing my opinions openly rather than gossiping about them like everyone else does.
ive heard it called "rupture and repair" and that it's a healthy foundation to all good feeling long term relationships. the rupture is the upset, the repair is talking it out. then, if done well, you feel closer, trust is greater, and things are smoother. rupture and repair. over and over. from leaving dirty socks on the floor to forgetting a birthday. rupture and repair. i wish it were a basic skill taught in school.
As someone who has been chronically single (by chance not by choice) I've found that although I have some beautiful close friendships, they've suffered from my friends being in relationships. It's hard to tell how much of it is just in my head but I don't feel as needed, or cherished, or appreciated anymore. Putting romantic relationships on a pedestal makes it feel like as a friend I'm just a placeholder until a partner comes along. ((My best friend is the exception to this but I'm also very close with her partner))
I completely agree with this as someone who is also chronically single (my choice not by chance in my case). However, I got to know one of my closest friends when she was single, it was a super intense friendship at first which works well for me who struggles to trust. Then she got a boyf (now fiancé) and our friendship became this gentle lull of stability and support which I love.
I feel this on a visceral level. I am a thirty-something year old who is the only person in my introverted friend group who doesn't have a partner. My friendships have shifted over the years from people you could call to get together with and do absolutely nothing to getting together having to be an event because my friends all have that built in "doing nothing" person already. I still love them and love the time we do spend together but the way the dynamic has shifted has implications for me that it doesn't for anyone else.
This is literally how i described it to my friend a few weeks ago, that i felt like a "placeholder friend" because another friend had invited me out, but only because her date got canceled 🥲
I agree. I'm single and live alone and practically all of my friends have partners they then moved away with to another town, city or province. Even the ones who still live within driving distance to me tend to spend their little bits of free time that they're not working, with their partner. Going to an event? They bring the partner. I rarely see them and it feels like they don't even think about me and how I am just here by myself.
Thisssss! I feel you here too. I am also a single gal, and since me and my two closest friends (who are unrelated to each other, if that makes sense) graduated uni and have started building our own lives - I've started feeling quite pushed to the side and sometimes a little neglected because they both, naturally, tend to put hanging out with their respective partners above making time to hang out with me. Glad I am not the only one who has experienced this
I remember there is one episode in Friends where Joe and Phoebe can't afford to go out as much as the other ones in the group. That's a real thing and I think this can be a long term problem. I have never thought about the financial /class aspect.
This is a fascinating topic for me as an autistic individual. The ability to function in friendships and make friends and maintain them is elusive.
Elusive? As in hard to find? Or did you intend to write illusive as in illusory or deceptive? Fellow autistic person needs to know, I think you're making a Freudian slip, and I can relate. 😊
Also an autistic person, and was thinking this through the whole video. I've read 'Friendaholic' and enjoyed the psychological aspects even though the experiences weren't that relatable to me personally. Though in my online autistic spaces, it's sad to see every other post asking how to make friends, or vent on severe loneliness. Due to our innate communication differences it feels like no matter how hard we try to make friends, it's next to impossible to connect with others in the way neurotypical folks do, and too often we end up with just ourselves for company - the su*c*de rates and life expectancy for autistic adults are truly alarming. And ghosting seems more common now than ever - it truly sucks to feel like you finally have a connection with someone, or god forbid finally made a friend, and one day they just never turn up & stop responding with no explanation.
I'm 32 and just want to find my people but feels like that's never going to happen for me. Always trying to put myself out there, try new things, group activities, be myself, but so far it hasn't worked and just end up feeling more burnt out and lonely than ever.
Oh sorry. That should be Elusive. That's what I get for commenting on my old iPad. She tends to over correct words! Thank you for pointing that out.@@nanimaonovi2528
@@BeckyC123❤ wanna be friends?
@@BeckyC123i will be your friend if you want!!
I used bumble bff to try to find friends near me, I really got on with one girl and she introduced me to a group of people that also seemed lovely. However, after a couple of meet-ups I realised they earned a lot more than me. I had to decline £40 musical tickets, nights out, weekends away. I tried to make as many of the excursions as I could but one day after I’d had to decline another night of drinks, I got booted out of the group chat. I’m autistic so maybe there was a social line I crossed somewhere but I think I just couldn’t afford to be friends with them.
I am sorry that happened to you. That’s crazy that you were priced out of a friend group! I hope that you have luck finding people more suited to your lifestyle. Also..hello fellow autistic person!
I just want to say, I’m neurotypical and friend groups are REALLY tricky. There are always unspoken rules, an invisible hierarchy, and groupthink that can lead to them turning on some others. It’s not easy even for people who aren’t autistic, and it was very likely a Them problem and not a You problem. It’s so snotty to boot someone for making less money. Bullet dodged.
I'm sorry that happened to you :( ❤
@r8434 There are certain social groups were one isn't broke. Unless there's something with the trustfund or Wallstreet is down again.
Nothing I can identify with, but that's reality. Broke isn't even a word in these circles unless you gambled away the Southfork Ranch...
Fellow autistic here, and I've been booted out of friend groups a couple of times as well, and I still am unclear on the why behind it. It's really annoying when people just cut you out instead of having a chat with you about whatever is bothering them. I don't mind not having a lot of friends, and I don't take it personally when people treat me that way (which is to say, I don't think I am the problem in these situations, and I'm probably better off without people who don't even give you a chance to change or explain yourself), but it's still frustrating for a bit when it happens.
I'm an old fart, and I want to sing the praises of volunteer activities. I've found my men's support in two volunteer activities in which I'm involved. It takes time, but there have been men's groups forever. They used to be called things like Leo's Meats Bowling Team, or The Group POf Guys I play Poker With On Tuesday Nights; now they might be Habitat for Humanity or Sunday Afternoons At The Food Bank.
What I find interesting is this difference between "masculine" and "feminine" friendship styles. I'm a man but I think my friendship style fits more closely to the "feminine" style of friendship which tends to be more supportive and intimate than traditional male-male friendships. As a result I find my friendships with other men are often very strong and I've been told by many friends before that before me they didnt have a friend they could rely on for advice or emotional support, which I've always found so sad!
So to other men reading this: tell your homies you love them!
I've been thinking that men typically only seek emotional support of the women in their lives, because they're often not socialised to do so with friends. I'm a woman, and I've had a number of guy friends who confide in and depend on me in a way they only do with me or other close female friends, until the point they find romantic partners.
A couple other friends have told me this happens with their male friends as well, and if that relationship ends, they will funnel that aspect of their social needs right back to one or two close female friends. What's interesting and rather sad is that some of them are my closest friends and will show support to me in the same ways, once the door is open for them to operate that way in a friendship.
This made me feel both heartbroken and hopeful. COVID obliterated my social circle and social skills. Neurodivergence and class tension adds to the mix and it's a very weird feeling. So many thoughts.
Covid time also obliterated my social circle and social skills 🙁you aren’t alone
Same, I feel like I never really recovered from the effects that covid had on my social skills
Same! But we can recover! I will work up to it again
Stop blaming "neurodivergence" for choosing to not treat you right
As someone who is in a pretty big friend deficit at the moment (I am a bit too isolated for my liking and I only see other humans about 3 days a week) I have some thoughts on this. I generally agree with the video until we got to the last bit, becuase the bit talking about friendship as something that 'naturally happens' and 'can't be forced' feels SUPER unfair to me. Like I think it's more of a case of you can't force spesific people to be friends. But I think you can TOTALLY manufacture environments to make the likelyhood of friendship higher. I have to believe that friendship is something I can have agency over- becuase otherwise that sort of implies that friendship is this passive thing that just 'happens to people' which I really don't think is true! I think you can make friendship happen by being engaged and showing up for people.
And if that's not true then I guess I'm just screwed- becuase the universe isn't doing it's job and passively giving me friends I guess !!!
Agreed. Though I think what she said wasn't going against what you're saying necessarily. But yep, agreed with you, from experience.
I agree with you. Especially since friendships require attentiveness and reciprocity, as said in the video, both of which imply some kind of effort, and because without the factor of deliberate effort, we cannot overcome the other things mentioned such as class differences, lack of affordable social spaces and capitalistic work culture. It might be harder but we've got to get creative!
No, I agree. I think sometimes it can *feel* like a friendship formed by itself, but it’s more so the result of good timing and chemistry. And even if a friendship does happen on its own, it’s sure as hell not going to survive on autopilot for very long, or get particularly deep. Adult relationships especially.
yeah it's a very deliberate thing when people have to deal with being autistic, having social anxiety, ptsd, etc. in my case social anxiety makes friendships a real pain because i have to force myself to keep hanging out, and if there isn't really strong chemistry, it's even harder to persist through the anxiety getting triggered. it can take a good while before i feel pretty comfortable, and until that point my "are they judging me? did i say/do something wrong? do they like me? are they lying about liking me?" thoughts are EXHAUSTING
If any media makes it in our corrupt society, it has to be corrupted and enabling of the corrupt. In this case, it seems that they are doing it by obfuscating how much work goes into making friends for people who aren't wealthy, beautiful narcissists.
The lack of 3rd places is really frustrating. The way I've made adult friends is by hosting board game night at my place every week to force that regular meeting/spending time together, but if I didn't I'm sure all my close friendships would just be acquaintances. It also requires that I have a table and chairs and board games which luckily I have, but at least one of my friends doesn't, but even now, if too many people get invited I have to ask people to bring extra chairs and it gets rather cramped 😅
This is not a problem in my home country. When I moved to Canada this issue nuked my life and mental health, and I coudnt even pinpoint it. It is crazy how urbanism affects the most intimate parts if your life.
Making friends as an adult does seem unbelievably hard at times. For a long time I felt like I needed to make new friends because I was missing something in my friendships, but really I needed to be more open with my current friends/family and reach out to them. I am overly self-reliant and struggle to ask anyone for anything so those studies about how important connection is were definitely kind of alarming to me, but I think instinctively I already knew my go it alone approach wasn't particularly healthy.
I feel this heavily. I'm terrible about asking for things. I often don't know what I need, so while I am always available for others, I never reciprocated asking for their support. I still struggle with this. Good luck to you!
Thanks Colleen, it is hard to do but worth trying I think. Hopefully one day it will start to come naturally! @@colleen6644
I love this so much because I've had the opposite experience. I've realised I've followed the pattern mentioned above of wanting to be pals with anyone I meet who seems similar to me. Of course the way my neaurodivergent brain works though, when I make a new friend based on similarities (pretty much always) I stupidly assume that the person who I share those similarities with is willing to take on that part of me that I share with them. If I'm making friends with an individual who also has anxiety, surely they're also enjoying our interactions because they also like relating to someone who shares those experiences? So, I always make it clear that all my anxious friends can reach out to me about anxiety, because I get it. Where I went wrong is assuming this friend would be doing the same for me. Recently I really needed to go to a friendly face for help talking through anxiety about a social event we were both attending. Not before, during, or after did she respond to a single plea for social support from me. I was desperately reaching out to her begging for some kind of minor anxiety support the way I'd been her Partner in Crime in fighting her social anxiety for years. She brushed me off every time I pleaded for her help, changing the subject, one time literally even to the stuff she was feeling anxious, which, everyone's feelings are valid, but at that point it time it felt so minor compared to what I was feeling, and for a moment I needed the friendship to be about the anxiety that was crippling me and not about whether her outfit was cute and dressed up enough for the bar event we were booked into. Over the years, if we're both relating to being anxious about something, I've alwsys been the bigger person in every social situation and always been the one to put aside so many of my anxieties to be the strong and understanding and supportive friend for her. I realised I partly like this because being friends with her forced me to push myself out of my comfort zone, because there's a 0% chance she's ever going to be the one to go out of her comfort zone for the sake of anything. But that was the downfall of our friendship. After 7 years I was in a time of my life where I couldn't be the support vessel. After 7 years, it came time for me to ask for her support, coz I needed it, I'm so low in my life right now. And her reactions every time I tried. I know that fundamentally her as a person, she does not go outside her comfort zone for anyone or anything, and supporting other people with the anxieties they have, well that is not my friend's comfort zone, so why would she do it? Hearing people talk about their anxiety is a trigger for her anxiety, so if someone talks to her about anxiety that isn't hers, she either has to leave or change the conversation because she finds it too uncomfortable and anxiety inducing to talk about anxiety, if it's not all about her venting about her own anxiety and having people comfort her or resonate with her about her anxiety, that is. She can't be the one to listen to you vent about your own personal anxiety, she won't try resonate or relate to you or empathise with you about your own personal anxiety and she certainly won't be comforting you about your own personal anxiety. So yeah, penny drop moments about my friend over this ordeal, coz why would she care about my anxiety? When it's not even about her?????
Well I’m dying early. But excellent video
Ive been doing a lot of thinking about friendship lately. I'm lonely, and for a long time ive just accepted that it was my fault because I moved away: I'm not as close with people because I don't go to visit often enough. But the point about reciprocity is one I've only recently considered, after a gentle talking-to from my sister. Yes, maybe I dont visit often and it never feels like enough time, but I do it... the friends don't. As my sister said, "dont feel bad that its not enough time with them, if they want to spend time with you, they can. They can visit you". That helped shift something in me, from guilt to (to be honest) anger - which maybe isnt healthy either, but its a hell of a lot healthier than beating myself up. So now I'm trying to focus my effort on those friends who have made the effort with me.
I'm 68 and have thought a lot about friendship - sometimes not because I wanted to, but had to. I've often been hurt and struggled to make connections, and as a result been very lonely. Used ;the usual methods' to try to build connections. But found that friendships rooted in some incidental factor you have in common (work, studying, volunteering, classes, clubs, reading etc) never last once that incidental connection ends - unless there is something more.
I used to think that once you had visited each other at home, or had each other's house key then it would be like family. No. It simply needs some (sometimes random) change in one person's life for all that to be negated. No matter how close you feel, it is shallow. And that's OK, because that is life.
I had some close friends in my village: 5 minutes walk away was the farthest, and we were very close indeed seeing each other daily. Different social classes, all educated to similar standards, many differences in interest and experiences, but several interests and experiences in common - animals mostly. Many intimate conversations and LOTS of mutual support.
When a new man came into one life, we were pleased. I knew before she did that they would get together, and she decided to marry. "We two" were happy for her, and assumed we would go to the wedding - but no. OK, but she never even TOLD us it was only going to be their immediate family. That was simple cowardice and we were shocked and a bit hurt that she didn't have the grace to even tell us. No respect at all!
She fell off the face of the planet. It was sad, but I wasn't surprised - I knew that she would drop anything for a man in her life, but our mutual friend was shocked and hurt.
Some years after that happened, the 'mutual' friend more or less cut me off - and I never knew why. I learned from another mutual friend how how SHE had fallen out with her over some really bad behaviour from her husband, which our friend condoned. I suspect that perhaps my closer friend felt miffed or self-conscious about what I had learned. I'll never know. I remain friends with the 'third' mutual friend, even though we were never AS close as the ones on the same street, but she has proved more reliable - a kindness I never take for granted.
Even though we were very close and they gave me so much, I have had to admit that those friends were not the friends I thought. I knew their foibles and accepted them, but had to accept it when those foibles (or mine?) led to the end of our friendships - but I'll never be ungrateful for having known them.
I am quite prepared to end friendships that don't work for me and to make new ones, but as you get older people are less available - they have family and kids they choose to prioritise. I'm pretty resilient now, but yes, I'm not actually prepared to be a 'place holder'. I have better things to do with my time. And in fact sometimes the relationships that are most important are those that are the slightest, that share small kindnesses and very gentle moments of support. Sometimes the most 'incidental' encounters are the most powerful and should be treasured.
Perhaps I'm doomed, but I've made it to 68. I've seen far more life-shortening stress from people wanting people / relationships that are unavailable, than I have seen for people who can be complete and happy, alone.
It seems to me that the only Permanent relationship that you have any hope of retaining are blood family and even those can sometimes be ... too much! So do I rely on them at all? No, But sometimes there is a small surprise and a warm moment. Perhaps gratitude is a skill.
Thank you so much for sharing this, I feel so seen at 37. Maybe with the internet my generation and later are getting to figure all this out earlier, but I think what you're staying with still hold true, even with better information, this seems to be our nature.
The beautiful stories of friendship we see on screen and in books sets us up like Disney does for romance. It's a very difficult part of life to finally recognise that after life starts to settle down, you realise that the friendship pre-30 is its own nature, just as few friends after 30 is the norm.
I really do think we can do better, sadly, trauma is rife, and life is so hard that after getting a few crumbs for hard work, there's barely energy for the right people in our lives let alone the wrong ones. We create a cycle of decline through lack of intent and death awareness. That said, I'm scared that even death awareness comes too late for people who made the decision as teenagers to push away and avoid that which would lead to grieving and emotional adeptness.
Sorry, your comment brings up so much to consider, it means a lot to feel your awareness and life through the words.
Peace and Gratitude to you :)
It's frustrating that so many people struggle to find friends when all of those people would probably like to be friends with each other!
I’m ace and on the aro spectrum, and friendships have always been really important to me! However, I often feel like the friends I have don’t value friendships in nearly the same way (partly due to them having or looking for partners, and partly, I think, because they haven’t had to question society’s over-reliance on romantic relationships over other kinds of relationships). This video gave me a push to actually try to connect to some new people who want the same kinds of friendships that I do! ❤
As someone who is in a relationship: It's hard to bring balance between friends and a partner. I think that many people are way more codependent on their partner than they think, me included. It's not that I value my partner way more than my friendships, in fact, I often miss my friends and I really crave better connection with other people that are not my romantic partner. I've become more lonely since I am in this relationship, which is mostly on me because I neglect my friendships more. It feels like I'm often glued to the routine that I have with my partner, even though I really want to spend as much time with my friends as I did when I was a teenager. I think it's like that for many people. It makes me feel alienated and estranged from my friendgroups, which makes it even harder to take the initiative to reach out to old friends. It's a sad and isolating cycle that I think many people in relationships fall into.
The biggest compliment my best friend ever gave me was: "You never put your relationship before your friends. You never did." And honestly that is to date my and my partners perspective. Which I'm really glad we agree on. I have always tried to view all my relationships as important. If I love you, even platonically, your in. I still don't know why but I think I just seen so many couples putting so much pressure of being their partners everything in Life that they either lose something or become really bitter when this doesn't improve everything. I get wanting to be friends with people who view friendships as equally important. I have friends who are good at that and friends I know when they get into a relationship I won't see or hear them for a year. Which can actually hurt although your happy they're dating and happy but it makes you sometimes feel like you were good to hang out with while they didn't have an intimate romantic relationship. But I know it's also part of my anxiety of losing people I so deeply care about. So I try to work on this and to check in with people. Thank you for putting my feeling in good words & reading this ted talk.
im in a poly relationship and actually really feel this statement. its because i feel so deeply for my friends. wanting to spend time with people im in a relationship with but not having time for friends. wanting to spend time with friends but them not having time because of their relationships.
i feel im spreading myself too thinly a lotnof the time...
I really resonate with this, the bit about capacity is so true! Sometimes you can get along so well with people but it's like, practically how can you show up in a friendship? I feel like it's become more of a thing these days that we expect friends to be 'chill' and endlessly understanding when they can't hang out or text back because 'we're all busy adults but we still love each other' kind of vibe. And maybe there is space for those kinds of relationships but at least in my close circle I want friends who reciprocate my efforts and demonstrate friendship as an action rather than a relationship status.
I agree, that’s fine for friendly acquaintances maybe but nit real friends. It’s not ok to use people or just disregard them when they’re just trying to connect a bit, let alone might need actual support. There’s a cultural trend pushing for this because people want to think of themselves as awesome supportive people who are so loving, but not participate in any of the actual work or emotional investment that requires. They want a pass on basically just being self-centered and lazy.
I'm 25 and have been thinking about friendships a lot over the last year. I spent 3 years living with a close group of Friends, to from the day I moved out practically never speaking to them again. And over the last year since I moved out, I feel like I've had a mental and emotional growth spert especially around my views of friendships and my own self worth.
I've regularly said I'll be friends with anyone whose not a dick. I've prided myself on the fact that it doesn't take much to be friends with me, that "if we've spoken for more than 10mins, we're friends now". But now I'm a older (and read that same book by Day!) I've realised all that was, was a complete lack of boundaries. I had made zero conscious choice on who I was friends with, the whole way through uni. I just accepted I was friends with anyone I found myself surrounded by, and then wondered why (especially with hindsight) they didn't value me or flat-out didn't care about me as their friend.
I won't be friends with anyone anymore. I'll be friendly with anyone, but there's a firm boundary now because of exactly that part of the book: I have to respect the quality friendships I have. I'm protecting them behind my boundaries, and only letting those I choose to love in.
Wise 😌
I resonate so much!!!
This is an excellent comment. Thank you. I used to be the same way (meaning I'd be friends with "anyone"). I'm glad you learned the lesson really quickly that it's not a good idea to do that for a variety of reasons. It took me much longer to learn this and I found myself surrounded by people with selfish tendencies. All the best to you.
Love this video, just to add my advice if anyone needs it: have hobbies and interests and be openly enthusiastic about them. You will draw like minded people to you. Open mic nights, folk clubs, knit and natter groups, the WI, volunteer groups, sports clubs, repair shops, walking groups, Zumba classes, Warhammer, board games, nails, hair, drag shows - there will be something. Also, second advice - don't expect anything from a friendship. Some people have more to give than others and some will like you and consider you a friend but maybe only have time once in a while for an in person meet up, if they bail that's a them problem, not a you problem. But communication is important. You're doing great and you deserve kindred spirits and friendship.
Can confirm. I went quad biking on a stag do last weekend.
This touches on a lot of things I have been thinking about recently, particularly the financial impact of friendship as a single person living alone. Thank you for the extra insight!
Now that Im out of university(in the US) and came back to my home city, I see the struggle of making friends even more. If you dont drive/have a car accessible, you cant get very far because of our car-centric city planning/lack of public transportation. And it really is expensive to hang out with friends because one’s home isn’t always the best place due to having multiple roommates or living with family to be able to afford rent. Every time you leave your home you essentially have to pay for food/water/gas for cars…it’s depressing to not be able to hang out without spending money. Sure older friends can understand the limitations but newer friends you’re trying to cultivate might not care enough to work around the limitations. This is all something Ive thought about for a long time now
It was easier in university to make friends of different class backgrounds/ethnicities because there were so many free activities you could go to. Now, thats less and less and you’re confined by where you live
The best friends I made were through environmental campagning. That said, I have a lovely gang of choir friends now. I totally agree with CS Lewis, you make friends qhile pursuing other interests. It takes the pressure off connecting, because you always have a ready made subject for conversation.
Thank you for this video, Leena. I've really been feeling the toll of friendships being overlooked in our society for years now. I feel that because of the economic situation making us having to work so much, suburban living forcing more space between people, and now social media and phone addiction, community and friendships have been neglected. It's also very apparent that many people put a ton of emotional value and work into their romantic partners at the expense of their communities and networks. I've seen this first hand in close friends who suddenly get distant when they have a new significant other. And for chronically single people like me that's very isolating.
I think loneliness is another serious issue in society ruining our health in our modern world, along with car-centric infrastructure, excessive screen use, processed foods, etc.
As an aromantic asexual, I really wish that the public discourse about adulthood friendships was... more existing. The commitment, the trust, the needs, the boundaries, how it needs to be mutual and respectful and responsible like any other relationship to be good and healthy. How it's bad to settle with friends on friendships that do not meet your needs. How it's possible to be incompatible with someone as friends (as an aroace I was mindblown after this realization). How you yourself can be a bad friend to someone even without realizing, since there's so little weight put on the adulthood friendships in our society that literally anything counts as "just a friend". Please people, talk.
This was a very interesting topic. I am an outsider with this topic because I have come to realize the older I get (42) that I have never really had friends just associates and I feel most comfortable alone for various reasons.
I'm aware it's healthy to have friends and be social at times but I just don't desire friends and I don't see that ever changing.
I always enjoy hearing your viewpoint on things thanks for sharing!!👏🏽😊
I have had the thought that social media has lowered the need that people used to have to make friends where they are. It used to be that if you moved, it would be much harder to stay in touch with old friends, and you would almost HAVE to get out and meet some people in your new place. But now, if you move, you can go right on having almost just as much interaction with your old friends as you did before. Maybe not meeting up in person as much, but you can definitely meet up online. You can still have daily updates on each other's lives. It removes some of the motivation to put in the work of building new friendships.
I also think, for me at least, it can be a little scary to meet new people these days. People can be so volatile and politically polarized. You can't know in advance if this perfectly nice-seeming person is actually going to treat you like trash if they find out what political party you're registered with or whatever. It feels like there's more risk involved in putting yourself out there.
The discussion around class resonates so much with me. I often hear about people making lifelong friends at university but for me that just wasnt the reality. Im from a very working class background surrounded by and experiencing high levels of poverty. Then managed to get good enough grades to go to Durham university. I was very much in the minorty, one of my flat mates in the halls was an actual aristocrat, his dad had a title and the lot. I was so out of my depth. I made friends of course but none of them stuck. I never felt like myself. But then when i went back home I'd kind if educated myself out of my friendship group and was viewed as different to them.
Are you me? Right down to the uni, this is exactly my experience at uni. I think you just healed something within me 😅
@@ph_read_be Durham is bizarre, a northern uni with barely any northerners.
I could have written this myself, even went to the same uni. I'm sorry you had this experience too ❤
@@harriet2268 as awful as it is that we each went through this, it's kind of nice to see that others experienced this too
I feel the same way. I love the friends I made at college but our lives ARE so different because of class. Plus they all live far away. My very dear friend who I did feel similar to class-wise, who experienced the world the same way I do, passed away suddenly of an unexpected heart event. He died six years ago. I still miss him.
As someone that lives oceans apart from their friends and struggle to make new connections, this video hit a bit too hard
Ditto, it has been several years since moving halfway around the world and I am only now starting to make real relationships outside work with people. I notice that the majority of people who I have met who are open to friendships are also expats,rather than locals. I do think part of that is that perhaps locals already have full lives, and view expats as temporary. Although the thing that's changed for me recently which has helped meeting people is also for me to stop seeing my own life as transitional and temporary.
I wonder how common this is for expats? Does it go on forever or eventually do you think the locals will accept us as one of their own haha😅
I've never defined myself as an expat, but lived in a different country for 13 years and I found that the mindset probably makes the most difference. If you see your stay as temporary, you'll be less likely to form deep connections than when you're properly settled. Saying that, it's easier to make friends with people who share a certain sense of 'otherness' that locals just don't have, but we can fully integrate if we try 😊
You might benefit from the videos of Caroline Winkler concerning friendships and her podcast Not for Everyone :)
@erint5373 @@yellowzora both your comments have made me realise how much I'm still viewing my life/home as "temporary" or "inbetween" when I've lived here for 5 years. I have lots of lovely regular customers at work and work with/do activities with a lot of the same people yet I've noticed how I've kind of kept people here at a distance, I had told myself it was for self-preservation that not every random person needs to know the "real" me (which is kind of fair but what does that even mean) and of course everyone has like a "work/customer service" persona but after watching this & reading your comments I'm starting to wonder if it's just a case of "well I'm about to leave anyway so why make connections here" (in reality I don't even have plans to move) and think it's just made me feel disconnected from people. Damn got some journalling to do. Thanks for reading this anyway & for your insightful comments ❤
@@chantal9673 Good luck on your path, hope your journalling helps you as much as mine does for me 😊
I have so many thoughts & questions, the first of which is how are we defining friendship? At what point do you become friends not strangers or acquantainces? At what point does that become "good friends" or "best friends"?
And also as an ethically non-monogomous person, it's so interesting to hear people using similar thought processes to consider friendship.
More stuff floating round my brain in not useful mush at the moment!
the mush will become useful eventually, that's what I've learned ;) It's good you have thought mush at all :) For me I think I define friendships in several consecutive circles, but for the inner layer they need to be regularly present in my life, able to engage almost any topic I feel I want to talk about and generally kind/want the best for me. I feel like a really good friendship is when you are both big fans of who the other is.
Shasta Nelson discusses identifying types of friendship in her book Friendtimacy. I thought it was a good read. She also has a Ted Talk if you want to try the info on for size.
@@LMc-l7h ooh thanks, will check those out
This got me in the feels. I’m “failing” to keep on top of communication in all my friendships, due to chronic illness and honestly being over capacity in terms of friends vs my brain. Class and differences due to disability and kids vs no kids are screaming at me from several friendships that I don’t want to let go. But by holding onto or trying to form relationships with people despite the circumstances, I’m ending up feeling anxiety just thinking about messaging and just neglecting people who could be positively amazing friends. I think I need these books 😂
THIS. I'm glad I'm not the only one. While I found this video super interesting and it resonates with what I've been thinking about lately, it also gives me anxiety. The experience of chronic illness can be so harrowing as it feels like it strips away most of the common ground you have with friends and people around you. What can you do or talk about when you have no job due to illness, can't go out much or travel or when you're bedbound with so much pain you can't even read much? I know there are possibillites and you can also practice being a good listener, but still, it makes you wonder about the nature of friendship. I'm in a bit of a better place now but the phase where I was bedbound made me realise how hard the friendship topic actually is.
I'm cronically ill also so have alot less capacity for friendships, it's worrying to hear people will cut me out for that.
ATTENTION EVERYONE: Shasta Nelson's book "Friendships Don't Just Happen!" is the best book on this topic, hands down. She also has a UA-cam channel with some excellent content ☺️
Lovely video as always, Leena!
Since becoming a mum, it has been so hard to maintain or form new friendships. I am just so tired. There are acquaintances that you Form because the kids like each other. Meeting another adult that has the potential to become a friend is an entirely different thing. I recently met one, we are both mums, the kids get along but we usually meet without kids because we are kind of becoming actual friends. It is just that life is so busy and demanding as a mum and I am just often far too tired to even just get on the phone.
Looking forward to watch this. I've literally tried everything as a working mum to make a new local friend. Actually spoke to someone at a playgroup AND got their number? Invited them to a local walk? Nada.
Downloaded an app specifically to make mum friends, messaged several, then got to the point of arranging a meet-up with one? On the day my child decided to nap at exactly the wrong moment but he really needed it and I couldn't move otherwise I'd disturb him, messaged to try to rearrange? Nada, because they were pissed I'd bailed last minute (kind of fair, but they were OTT about it).
Met someone through cat sitting for them, they fit my vibe entirely and loved kids and lived like 5 min walk away and I thought, I'll never know if I don't try, so I messaged essentially saying 'can we be friends', they were super grateful and lovely but because of ND issues struggled to reply and now I assume they feel too bad to ever do so again... so, nada!
Can't really even blame anyone for these circumstances, because it all boils down to needing two incomes to keep a household running. Can you imagine how much more of a community around you there'd be if just one income was needed?! (whether man or woman, or still both if they want!)
I'm so tired of it, and so interested in what you have to say!
So sorry you’ve had this experience. I’m a Mum too, if it would be helpful to have a WhatsApp buddy, let me know!
I agree it's so hard to make friends, especially in this day and age. I don't have much advice, just keep doing what you are doing. It takes just one person to be the right person. Go often to things like playgroup where you see the same people regularly and start with hi how was your week etc. Not everyone will be interested, but there are also people like you looking for new friends. It takes effort and you have to be quite persistent at the start, like if you cancel plans, make sure you message a couple days later to rearrange etc.
When I read Friendaholic I could relate to so many things she said and it left me completely insecure about myself as a friend. I was a social butterfly in my 20s and 30s, I had so many people around in different social groups, some closer tohers on the fringes, but I was never alone if I didn't want to be and there was always someone to do stuff with. In my 40s things changed dramatically with my life and friends' lives, finding time to hang out got harder and we drifted apart. Then the pandemic showed who are the real friends and then I got overworked last year and only manage to keep in touch with two. Friendships are harder the older you get, especially making new friends. I think the time they mention in the book is about right. We're all careful who we let in and close especially the older we get. Its the question of "is it worth investing time in this?" as so often it wasn't and time is a finite commodity unlinke in my 20s, there was so much time LOL.
A really hard-hitting video Leena, thank you. Friendships are something I struggle with. I spent a decent portion of my twenties feeling very lonely, partly because I moved around a lot for work, but also because I just really seemed to struggle to get past the initial "polite acquaintance" phase. Every workplace I've worked at, also, I've felt like I didn't quite fit in with people, so I've never really been able to build a social circle through work either. I just seem to struggle to tune into people's wavelength. I have social anxiety, which doesn't help.
I'm hoping to go back to university to do my PhD soon, so hopefully I'll be able to meet more like-minded people that way.
I love that you’re making videos on this topic! That being said I’m going to quibble with one of your ideas. I don’t think it’s good or healthy to be viewing a total reliance on a spouse (even one you love a lot) as an effective 21st replacement for friendship and community. Expecting your romantic partner to fulfill all of your needs that you would otherwise get from friends is a lot of pressure on one person, and it can have the negative side effect of making people feel trapped in otherwise poor relationships if their partner is their only social connection. As an aromantic person I’m also totally shut out of that model. I do agree that this is a pattern a lot of people fall into, because of the focus society puts in romantic partners (much of which is left over from the days when marriage was more of a business arrangement). But I don’t think it’s one we should just accept as ok since there are less arranged marriages in the world now
Friendships have been very hard for me all my life. But it is going really well atm. I have found an organisation for people with autism to hang out and that has been really good and fun for me.
The lack of free public spaces where people can socialize has become a huge problem in gentrified areas. Fewer and fewer businesses that offer a cheap or free space to socialize can afford to exist- I can name a long list of now closed iconic cafes and pubs in my city that served as meeting places for various social groups for the price of a beer or a cup of tea. These spaces were usually very big, lots of tables, had public restrooms and served multiple purposes for locals- the cafe where I would wait for my mother to pick me up as a kid, a safe place to meet a blind date, where I could study as a student, meet with my knitting or game group, etc. There were always people around, the longtime staff knows me by site, I still see one employee out and about and we bond over our connection to with the cafe where he worked. It's mostly parks now, which means we can't gather outside of people's homes unless the weather is warm.
As someone who lives in America and cannot drive, it’s absolutely crazy how hard it is to make friends if you can’t just drive somewhere on a whim. Public transportation’s is a joke where I live
I've realised fairly recently that I have a bit of a different understanding of friendship to what most people do. I like to think I'm a pretty loyal friend (I have loads of friends that I still meet up with that I knew when I was a child) but I've never felt that friends are people I have to see or speak to regularly. I find that I don't seem to grow apart from people, no matter how long it's been. I can go years and years and years without ever talking to someone (not in a nasty way, just because I don't get around to it) but I still feel like they're my friend, I still see on their social media what they're up to, and when we do cross paths again, it feels like we just saw each other last week.
I think this comes from the fact that when I was little I had quite a few close friends who moved away and then I didn't get to see very often. But when I did get to see them, it was lovely and not awkward at all. And I think this is quite a nice way of looking at friendship... I absolutely love getting a text or an email from a friend I haven't seen in ages, it absolutely makes my day, and I make sure that I fairly frequently touch bases with people from my past as well. I particularly do it when I dream about people... I have really vivid dreams, and often I wake up and think, 'I wonder how that person is? Better drop them a line and catch up.'
I feel like this too! I'm more than happy to meet up with someone I got on with 10 years ago, and I won't feel weird about it as long as they don't.
Thinking of a person, especially someone who’s supposedly a friend, as a thing you “just didn’t get around to” is actually a bit nasty.
@@HereForTheCatContent I don't think that about them overall as human beings. I just don't have the emotional capacity to keep up with everyone I'm friends with all the time.
What I'm saying is that I don't find that a barrier to friendship actually. I'll always reply if they send me a message, comment on their posts and send them a catch-up message from time to time - and I don't expect them to always be in touch with me either. It seems that for a lot of people, if you go more than a few months without talking to a friend it means the friendship is over - and that's not true for me at all. I have more friends than I have time to speak to all the time, but it doesn't stop me thinking of our conversations fondly, sending them a message on their birthdays, spontaneously suggesting we meet up if I happen to be nearby where they're living or whatever - and when we do catch up, the dynamic is as good as ever.
Like for instance, last September I went on a walking holiday with a friend I hadn't spoken to in a good few years, which was lovely - I was with a new partner that she hadn't met yet, her kids were much older than the last time I'd seen them and it was so great to have a good old catch-up. Perhaps some people wouldn't have gone to that because they'd have been embarrassed about not having stayed in touch so much - but I'm not embarrassed about that, and allowing that to be a thing would have cost both me and that friend a happy time. I don't know how long it will be before we cross paths again, but I know we will at some point. I have lots of people like that.
This is a definitive video for your channel Leena, well done. In the future when I recommend the gumption club to folks, I think this will be the video I link to. Bravo.
Those friendship time studies have weighed on my mind and my intention with community building for many years now, I was so glad to see them referenced here.
I spent many years in different countries and now my 3 closest friends all live on a different continent to me but we voice note and message often and know all thats going on with each and can talk about anything. Its important to highlight long distance friendships because many times they're even better than the in person ones ❤ I also don't think people always need to be around...its too difficult when people have their own families and other friends and jobs and hobbies. We should normalise seeing or speaking to people when the time is right for everyone rather than when it's best for one. I'd love to see my friends every month but sometimes we can go months without seeing each other and it doesn't diminish our friendship
As someone who also knows what it’s like to have all friendships be long distance ones how have you managed to deal with those times when you’re missing your friends more than usual but going to see a friend isn’t an easy option unless planned far in advance? I find I struggle with this often and I wonder if it’s because for me there’s that connection missing at times. Really look forward to a reply if you give one
@mnickrowe totally get what you're saying! It's definitely hard if I'd love to have a coffee with them and a chat but to be honest I also think that's overrated. I don't really agree with the video where she states she's going to value time spent together over things we have in common. That was a huge problem in my life when I was younger, I spent so much time with friends but we had very little in common beyond proximity. I'd rather call/video call/voice note back and forth with a friend while I'm in South Africa and they're in South Korea and come away feeling heard and like I was there for them than an afternoon having coffee with someone sitting across from me only talking about themselves. I am lucky to have 4 good friends I see in person but the people i love the most are far away and I'll happily text and talk long distance knowing that they really care for who I am amd the thoughts and feelings I have. Seeing someone in person is lovely and seeing them often is great.but its not the only way to have a friendship. IMO 😊
I find statistics really useful, as an ND person, because I often feel like I don't know the difference between friends and acquaintance. But then I struggle with some of them because of being disabled and neurodivergent, I feel like the map for navigating friendships in these scenarios like most things are probably different right? I have just received my care plan and there is a whole three hours a week dedicated to getting me into the community because I don't have great access to it at the moment. But I did join my local spinning and weaving group, I'd say I've made some nice acquaintances but one actual friend. She was younger than me, which is surprising at 26 usually I'm the youngest in group like history associations or specific craft groups. We have met a few times, and once our of the group setting, and will be again soon as well. But after maybe the second meeting it felt like I'd already made a friend. Obviously time will tell if that closeness will happen, but I think with ND friendships they tend to be sporadic, and can build that closeness very quickly with other ND people. I struggle with remembering to keep in touch, and also commiting to plans due to disabilities and stuff. But I love the friends who get that, don't judge, still invite you places and still can call you if they need. Me and my best friend of many years speak maybe once every few months, see each other even less (both disabled, she also has kids and is single mum so obviously time is sparse), but if I call her she always answers, and vice versa. So yeah, I don't know how to absorb information about what makes a good friendship, because I don't know if that looks different for me. And we also tend to accidentally flock together, so when trying to make friends with NT people I find it hard because I don't know what their expectations are of friendship. On the plus side, since COVID we made a group chat for our building on Whatsapp, and though people have come and gone, we have started to build a bit of community with our immediate neighbours in the building. I wouldn't call all of them solid friendships yet, but it does help with being social when you're naturally a bit more introverted!
Yes I find it difficult to make friends who aren’t neurodivergent because I feel like I’m masking all the time and can only fully be myself around other ND people
@@izzy3946I feel the same way. I have become rather active in the local arts community and have found that the people in those groups are pretty relatable and relaxed…and probably neurodivergent themselves.
@@faeriesmakyes totally ,I feel like art spaces are generally quite neurodivergent friendly places and i really miss my art classes for this reason.
I think getting rid of the single tax should be more than just a nice idea, I'm not saying that investing in community is invalid (total opposite - more buying houses with friends please!!) But as a single person, it terrifies me that people get stuck in dangerous/neglectful situations because there is no way to afford living alone off a single salary! Because I know how impossible it feels!
Definitely agree that with the ability to have connections over larger geographical areas, the cost of friendship for time and money is so real, and a very difficult one to balance!
I'm not at the end of the video yet and I do have a little request: could you please add the studies that you're mentioning in the description? I only see the books [that I've already screenshoted haha] but not the whole studies.
Thank you a lot! It's a sign that you're posting this while I'm overthinking about my actual friendships IRL and the way I interact with strangers online haha
Having emigrated to another country, I have found that family is central here to having a social life. People spend a lot of time doing things with extended family groups, bbqs, family dinners etc. Also, if you are no longer near to your youthful connections eg school, youth group etc it's quite hard to replicate those shared experiences/memories when making adult friendships. Add to the mix my Northern British humour, plus being an introvert, and you've got a powerful recipe for loneliness. I'm happy in my own company these days, but it took me a while to make peace with it.
Aw, that's too bad. Are you able to ask someone "hey will you adopt me into your family"?
I'm in an area where people have big families and are connected in that way, and it's not that I don't welcome others who aren't technically family, it's just... Well, my family can be a lot. They're weird and a bit loud sometimes. I wouldn't be able to guarantee comfort to my guest the same way that I'd do if we were in another situation. However, I'd be thrilled to have her there, and she can bring her family, too! My different family circles really would be welcoming too.
But I don't want to force my strange family on her, or make her feel like I am giving her a pity invite, so it's been tentative invitations.
I recently read Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends, but it just made me feel bad about who I am as a person. I always felt a struggle with friendships growing up because I felt the need to be a certain version of myself that they would like, but I also had the benefit of enforced time together with school or activities. As an adult, I've long understood that I'm comfortable with a small core group and getting along with with a larger group of acquaintances without the desperate need for more. But the geography thing (and working from home) is a real struggle. If I don't see someone every day and I don't have a sense of their daily life, it's like I don't want to interrupt them. And since living situations have kept me apart from most of my friends, there's this level of stress involved to plan Events to intentionally Get Together when I miss just being able to meet up for coffee and a chat, then be home within an hour.
I love the description that friends appear like tan when you're out in the sun. I go out and do things I am passionate about. When you're at those activites you will find people like you. Once you talk enough, start inviting them to things they could be interested in. Sometimes stuff doesn't work out. Sometimes it does. I feel the worst possible way to make a friend is by a friend app as you are starting with idea that you need instant chemistry and that you owe that person something and they owe you something. That's too much pressure! I'm the kind of person who doesnt mind friend rejection but I find I rarely it. Maybe I pick people well! 😅
I usually try to meet my friends at lunchtime at work but post covid that has been hard. If you are lucky enough to work near people you think are cool - invite them for lunch! Most possible are just trying to kill their lunch time anyway and love the excuse!❤ it seems so silly but I dont know many people who do that! Another good option is taking people out for breakfast but in this post covid world no one in my circle goes to work early anymore (while before they would often be there an hour early to beat traffic).
I also agree so much on free spaces. I met so many people in university (some who I am still close to) because we all worked on extra curricular projects or events in the same locations. You would just get to know people unintentionally - someone would be there and youd end up with either you tagging along to their thing or them to your thing. But as an adult people are often rushing for buses or trains home to far off locations (indeed due to high rents)
I love this video. I've been thinking really hard about my friendships as a couple of my friends are getting married and thinking about who is/isn't invited, and starting to think about who I would want at mine in the future. More generally, all my closest don't live near me, so it's been hard to find balance between maintaining those friendship and investing in making new friends locally. It might be the first time I've had to put in so much work to make new friends rather than organically making friends through uni or post-uni work programs, and it's fascinated me how the people I'm befriending aren't necessarily the most "compatible" people but the ones who are willing to listen and show up for plans. As my life continues to be more transient, it has me reflecting a lot on my friendships and who I hope will stick around, and who I think actually will.
I used to have a few friends (despite being autistic and socially anxious) then I became chronically ill.
When you’re disabled and housebound with no new stories, when you’re unable to go to work or to even to simply meet a friend at a coffee shop or a park, you realise how few people will actually care enough to keep you in their life. They message occasionally, and you feel the need to try and think of something else to tell them other than you’re still sick, you’re still at home, and you’re still existing.
And eventually good people, people who you have known and loved for 20 years of your life, people you thought were family, simply fade away.
Came back to watch again because that quote at the end is perhaps the most depressing I’ve ever heard but it is right. Friendship is a side effect of living. I can’t really live anymore - not in the same way as my former friends. I’m literally going nowhere so how could I have fellow travellers - except those on the same journey as me (ie housebound chronically ill people). Those people that live like me - and there is a lot - they’re all at home feeling ill & in pain too.
I probably need to stop thinking about this before I start to spiral 😣
I love when you do this style of video. I love a deep dive data-supported pondering. Thanks for spending the time to make this! Love it.
As a woman who actively decenters romantic relationships and centers friendship in her life I've found it quite easy to make and sustain friendships. However I'm autistic so I just don't vibe with a lot of people, and even when I do, there's always the chance that I won't vibe with their partners. Therefore I've lost many important friendships when they coupled up. It's sad, but I try to remember I'm here for the ones that stick around.
Loved the video. Going to get the book soon! Stay safe!! 😊
your discussion of class and seeing friendship as an investment of time blew my mind. when i was at my poorest, i had a very strong and sizable community of friends that i was close to (emotionally and geographically). now that i'm doing *okay*, i'm not poor enough to need other people with the same urgency i once did, but i'm also too poor to stop working and take risks on new friendships. it's really sad, but it looks like i've probably been evaluating the ROIs of human beings. :\ makes me feel incredibly disturbed!
I’m married, live abroad in a country that I don’t fluently speak the language, but I’ve managed to maintain three significant friendships overseas. I have found this is all I have space for right now. Before we moved we had a large social circle we met up with multiple times a week. Now that my life is more intentional I have had the ability to invest in myself and my friendships more. I tried bumble friends and ultimately failed to find a connection. I talked to my therapist about this social pressure to have large amounts of friendships and how it felt overwhelming and how I felt like a failure. He told me if I haven’t made friends yet I probably wouldn’t and I needed to find why. It was because I only had space for the people I already have in my life! Sometimes number quantity doesn’t match up with the quality of your core friendships. Don’t feel bad if you aren’t meeting societal pressures sometimes we aren’t capable of that type of life for lots of reasons!
What your therapist told you seems harsh but true... I have been living in uk for 9 years and made only one friend that I met the first year I arrived. This is so sad.
Thank you for the unexpected push to go to the friday sewcial at my local sewing shop! Im sure theres one ofher newish mom there looking to knit and chat 😊
Oh man, what you said about the relationship between friendships and spending money hit HOME. I’ve been thinking about that too- like, if I want to see one of my close friends, I have to drive an hour away (gas money) and it seems like the only things to do together are go shopping and buy food and drinks. It’s a problem and it really disheartens me.
honestly friendship is so difficult! I've been stressed all my life (after a crappy childhood) of having enough friends, now I'm pretty good with having just a couple that I love a lot... but then I've been agonizing lately about my parents not having that many friends and pulling on me to fulfil a role of being a best friend to them, and I really really finally want to have my own life right now. So I've been thinking that I need to talk to my mom to stimulate her making more friends, but how! Your last quotes were so comforting; of course you can make friends a lot better if you feel good and if you're out there doing stuff and meeting people who enjoy the same stuff! Thank you so much for that, I think I can use that advice for her well!
Finally a video about friendship. Not enough people talk about it and I will continue to thump that friendships are extremely important. However I am not quick to call everyone my friend. I am neurodivergent so I have had many many many failed attempts at making friends but it's the one relationship I desire the most. I have a few great friends now but it takes me months to even consider someone my friend. I gotta feel a sense of ease within myself to call you my friend. I talk to atleast 20 people if not more everyday but i only have about 4 friends and only 1 that knows me inside out.
0:16 I was like “wish Is she walking away?” Then you quickly turn around and run back to the camera. You are hilarious!!
How we show up by Mia Birdsong was excellent! She did a great job drawing from non traditional/chosen family structures to gives framework for doing friendship better.
Since i got engaged I've been thinking so much about my friendships, because of trying to decide who to ask to be in the wedding party, it's been nice to have an excuse to really examine that and also to have a way to let a few of my closest friends how important they are to me (by asking them to be in the wedding)
I have been listening to the audiobook of “atlas of the heart" by Brené Brown, where she talks about and catalogues the range of human emotions. She also states that fact that loneliness increases the chances of early death by 45%. Really good book.
I had a really hard friendship breakup a couple of weeks ago and it really hit me hard. They were my friend I most often interacted with at the time and the loss of that was incredible. Not sure how I will go forward on that yet, but especially the stability aspect of that friendship wasn't there. It is a difficult topic for sure, so thank you for the video!
well, that last quote by cs lewis really killed me lol apparently i have nothing and im not going anywhere dang it
im kidding of course but it must feel discouraging for some (me lol)
loved the video xx
I finally have a stable relationship and i’m realising I have neglected the whole friend thing even before that. I love my online friends to pieces, but I need some geographically close people. I’ve been trying facebook groups and communities that are for people wanting friends, but people are just twiddling their thumbs as we usually don’t have anything but loneliness in common. I want to join something more interest or hobby based instead! I think everyone gets stressed if friendship is the main goal. my local area doesn’t have much of that so I guess i’ll make my own club (again actually)
What an interesting topic!! As a single, immigrant, childfree person, I actually spend a lot of time thinking and working on my friendships! I take them very seriously so I really appreciate this video. I do wonder how this topic would be read from perspectives that are more communitarian and see kinship and friendship from perspective that aren’t so Western? I feel this video tackles friendship within Global North and heteronormative imaginaries. If anyone has authors that work on friendship from postcolonial or decolonial lenses I would love to read them!!
I would love to hear more on this. What would be considered a non-western way of viewing friendships?
@@__led That is my question! ☺Friendship has cultural and contextual meanings. I feel Lena draw an inverted relation between nuclear families and the state of friendship but that is only true for a small part of the world! And I wonder how in societies were family doesn't necessarily mean nuclear families but entire communities (say, neighbors are aunties and cousins) if and how this affects the meaning of friendship. Or we could also think of intergenerational frienships where age removed from the equation. I was also thinking of the concept of chosen family among queer folks and its effect on the meaning of friendship. Anyway, so many "non-western" scenarios came to mind but I only have questions and zero answers🤷🏻♀🤣.
This was amazing and something I have been thinking about so much in just the last few days. The algorithm has done it again, definitely subscribing. I'm 27 and I'm only just understanding the importance of boundaries; I've always had strong boundaries if someone hurt me, but that's a pretty low bar tbh. I love meeting new people and find it genuinely sad the human lifespan puts a limit on how many people you can be close to, but I'm coming to realise the obvious: quality is infinitely better than quantity.
All my yes
Omg this is my favorite kind of Leena video, I'm excited to reconsider everything I think I know about friendship and have a good think after this video!
"Nobody likes being alone. I just don't particularly try to make friends, that's all. I avoid disappointments."
Quoting Murakami (I know he's not a favourite for lots of people, but this particular quote made me feel so much I can only love him) loosely translated from my language (not Japanese) back to English
Recently I have found that, despite having a mix of friends who like us have kids and also friends who dont, friendships can be tricky to maintain. However, our non parent friend who is trying to get sober loves hanging out with me and my toddler coz all her other adult friendships are maintainned by after work drinks or boozy dinner parties.
Such a great video and I definitely identify with the whole 'having capacity for people' as someone who is super busy. I WANT to have time for everyone but it's just not possible and I have to get used to the fact that it's same for others too and that's probably why I'm not as close to as many people as I'd like to be.
I've read Elizabeth Day's book and find this topic interesting too. I've always had a few close friends I see usually one to one but after getting a chronic illness a few years ago I barely see my friends, and some of them I'm not sure we're even friends anymore - I have to say no to most social activities due to my illness, I can't go out in the evenings anymore. The friends I still have I mostly keep in touch with via text/instagram which is really good, especially as they mostly don't live locally. I've found that a lifeline. But at times it does feel very isolating, and it's pretty impossible to make new friends when you can barely go out. I've found online forums/book clubs really helpful. Just shows how life events really get in the way or friendship, or make it much more difficult to maintain.
It's hard to go out looking for friends in a new area; I'm so aware that I need a new set of friends here and don't like the neediness
God, that quote at the end is a burn.
This is great. I've been reading Dr. Marisa G. Franco's 'Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make--and Keep--Friends' and find a lot of throughlines between that and the thoughts and quotes in this video. I'm glad to have new books on the topic to check out!
The number you quoted on the amount of people you can realistically keep in your life is interesting. I feel like I don't have any friends at all outside of work and family, and I've always thought about myself as an introverted person... but I have friendly interactions with at least that many people at work (it's a big company) and another layer of social obligations with family. No wonder I'm spent and don't want to talk to anybody when I get home.
I wonder how many people are in the same situation where workplace social interaction are so demanding that they have no bandwidth left for friendships outside of their place of employment. I mean I love my coworkers, but I know if I changed jobs I would probably lose contact with most of them.
The outside setting is really nice I appreciate that ❤
Thank you for making a video on this topic. There are so many resources about romantic relationships but I think friendships are just as complex.
I love this topic! Have recently seen my oldest friends starting to work in well paid jobs, and I’m an illustrator currently with no reliable income. Definitely makes a difference.
Also I have suddenly got an opportunity for a new friendship - a person that I met in a café and he asked if I wanted to meet up to draw together another time, and I said yes! (Still not sure if he could mean to go a romantic route, so that remains to see)
The gumption club logo moving out of Leena's way. Five editing stars Craig!
Enjoyed this chatty/essay style video about an infrequently discussed topic! I watch your first friendship video on repeat after my rough days 😂 Thanks Leena
* realizing all my adult friendships began with work, drinking, or D&D*
I once took a break from drinking for a while and after returning to my "cheers," people asked if i was ok and said they were worried when they didn't see me for a few months. It made me feel loved but also concerned that my main social outlet was something that isn't good for my health and isn't always in my budget.
Not to mention, about the only places to socialize after dark revolve around alcohol, even if they maybe also involve live music or comedy or whatever. And free, public spaces disappear. If you work in the evening, or even on your days off, if you're circadian rhythm keeps you up at night, there's really no way to socialize and not drink.
Omgeee i am so happy to have found you it fills my guts with tingling, I also get that from super strangely perfectly fitting videos of katherout
Thank you for making this video
It's truly something good added to the world that was missing and has not been there yet!
I'm really liking the Art of Gathering(currently reading) and I think you have this book Leena, but Big Friendship is so good too!
I'm loving this topic and your thoughts around them are bring a lot of questions that I like researching, thank you!
I've been so lucky in my last year (age 28/29) to have made some really close friends just when I needed it (my best friend/old housemate moved abroad). But generally - especially when you work independently/at home - it is SO hard to make friends! I found I pretty much had to say yes to most social opportunities which often equated to an EXPENSIVE social life. Definitely think we need more 'free spaces' to help make friendship and community cheaper.
Loved this video Leena - especially your discussion about having third places to socialise in - Andrewism did a great video about this.
I think a lot of the problems in our relationships these days can be put down to capitalism (as can most of our problems in general, lol). Focusing on community-led action is what we should be doing - there's a whole theory called communalism, which I've made a video about, which suggests our social and ecological problems will be solved by grassroots, community-led, horizontal action. I think our friendships could be so much more fulfilling in a world which doesn't prioritise profit and hierarchies.
I feel this. I want to see friendships highlighted in the media we watch more as well. They are always sidelined in favour of romance and family, but both those things can so often be things you choose.
Excellent topic and thoughtful take on friendships. The lack of inexpensive third spaces and long working hours really put things in perspective for me. I see my best friends only a handful of times a year, but see my coworkers more. Although some of my coworkers have become good friends, it’s nice to see people outside of just work and school.
I've always thought of friendships as just people that I can pass the time with and vice versa. Of course we have to enjoy each other's company and build some trust etc. But aside from that I don't really expect/want them to be involved in my actual life.
This is an outstanding video Leena. I've spent a lot of time thinking about friends, in all the rhe ways you've spoken about. How, where, capacity, conversion from acquaintance to proper friend. Im glad there are other people thinking about it too. It makes me feel a bit less lonely actually. I've worked really hard to make new friends and keep old friends, which has worked but it doesn't stop. There's no end point to this task, but when you're in the middle of a really excellent conversation you know its worth it.
Just loved it. You are super well spoken and articulated, girl! Just bought friendaholic because of ur video. And the quote at the very end from CS lewis: beautiful.
Thanks Leena for the reminder of the importance of friendships! I've always wondered why when I was so busy with life, I had more friends than when I had all the time in the world to myself. Shocking realization, but not a hopeless one!
The thing that really tickles me is that smoking is so easy. You have to chose to do it and then do it. Making friends is so much more difficult and stressful. I had my period in life where I flailed desperately to make friends that I eventually got dangerously depressed. It wasnt until I learned to stop banging my head against the wall and just focus on myself. Still lack close friends but my mental health is so much better.
Dunbar's work is always haunting for me because when I was teaching I had about 180 students. There's so much talk about planning and class size but no one ever acknowledges that having people teach six giant sections of middle school social studies (for example) means that teachers are going to be continually overwhelmed even just socially and kids will never get the support they need.
Enjoyed this topic, and got me to step back a bit and examine my commitments to stuff like my romantic relationship vs my closest friendship vs friendships.
But also PLEASE I might die if I don't learn where you got your earrings (and similar peach coloured ones you've worn in other videos)!!!!
earlier this year i finished reading the book The Good Life: Life-Changing Lessons from the World's Longest Study of Happiness and it made such a compelling but compassionate case for social relationships being the key to health and happiness. i cried so much.