I've been in the Christian universalism camp now for at least 5 years. I graduated from a hopeful universalist position of theologians like Karl Barth and von Barthazar to confident universalusm because it was the only logical conclusion and because any other position cannot position in all honesty that " God is love". Thanks for this.
It's good to a point. But if that wrong choice is predicated on behavior and beliefs you were taught as a child by parents in good faith -- e.g. being raised a Muslim, or atheist, or Hindu, etc. -- then there is likely nothing irrational about that choice since it's based on all you know. Wrong choices are often made because of simple and understandable ignorance.
@@stormburn1 I see your point, but Randal focuses on the "irrational act" aspect of this argument, when in reality, simple ignorance is the reason the vast majority of the time (assuming Kurt's version of universalism is correct).
@ Sounds like a minor difference in framing. Either way, it's an argument that nobody who disbelieves could reasonably be held accountable as it would be equivalent to holding someone accountable for holding their hand in the flames rather than acknowledging some other fault is in play.
Is there anything about the word ‘aiṓnios’ that relegates it to posthumus existence? If it means 'pertaining to the age', as Kurt Parton says, why couldn’t it refer to the misery of the existence of living this kind of selfish life of not caring for people in the present age or perhaps in the period of history that would follow the death of Jesus? Couldn’t the misery of living a life of not loving God or my neighbor be a kind of hell itself? Could our mentality in western society be so warped that we perceive caring for each other as a chore and taking care of number one a desired way of life? Maybe this loss of perspective is causing us to live in hell right now?
I always thought that universalism only makes sense if one accepts the logic of Calvinist double predestination, since scripture says it is God's heart that all repent and none be destroyed. But for those of us who believe it has been delegated by God for people to choose him or not, then the concept doesn't make sense. If the Satan and demonic spirits who had all knowledge could choose to turn away from the light, then apostasy and denial is possible.
Universalism is infinitely less objectionable than ECT, but if Jesus being the only road to salvation means that non-Christians still have to spend significant time in Hell, gross iniquities still exist. Take three people, all of them equally loving and kind, and desirous of avoiding sin and doing the right thing throughout their lives. The only significant difference is the religious faith they were raised in and live by -- one a Christian, one a Muslim, and the other a Hindu. They were all taught that the religion of their parents was the one true faith, and they were never given cause to seriously consider that theirs was a false religion, just like the experience of billions of religious people around the world today. In this case, what possible reason is there for sending the Muslim and the Hindu to Hell for any length of time at all, if the Christian gets an express ticket to Heaven simply because they happened to be born into the right religious tradition? And that's before we even consider the near infinite ways in which free will is taken from billions of people long before they are capable of exercising their free will in any considered way, if they ever do. One more trivial point -- it's a little odd to describe God as being ultimately victorious for saving the totality of his creation when he controls every aspect of his creation and has done from the very beginning. That's as impressive as Vince Mcmahon one year during his ownership of the WWE deciding that he was going to be the WWE World Champion. Surely there is only one outcome -- the outcome that an omniscient omnipotent God desired and foresaw from the very start.
How about this for a universalist position? Life, all life, human and otherwise, is eternal at its core. Thus death in this world is but a transition into a another one. The whole thing is therefore "natural", structural, simply the way God set things up. Add in the idea that one's place or position in the next world, as a human being, is determined by the way one lived his or her life, not as a matter of individual judgment but rather, again, as a structural aspect of human existence, and one would seem to have come close to a universal, not merely a universalist, religion.
@@Randal_Rauser That's the problem. It might have been nice if one of you had mentioned that possibility. Otherwise you have people who may repent solely to avoid the further torment of hell.
@@Randal_Rauser Not a troll at all, Randal. Just an ex Christian who challenges you to think outside the box you've built around yourself. Sounds like you're just more interested in dismissing anything you find uncomfortable as being trolled. Too bad.
@@jeffdanelek2132 But more like a troll, no universal reconciler imagines hell as a place of torment, rather as a place of distance from God. And of course God can fail and some people stay in hell voluntarily. The universal reconcilers don't have more than hope. And Troll is right: if you criticize the concept of universal reconciliation (and offer atheism as an alternative of all things) you should already know it.
As a Biblical UniversalistI tell “traditionalists” that I understand “eternal” in the bible to be Mirriem Websters definition 1b… “of eternity” “relating to eternity”. eternal adjective 1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING eternal damnation b : of or relating to eternity Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the fire OF ETERNITY which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; - Sodom is an example of undergoing Eternal fire and yet the fire did not burn without end. It is called eternal fire because it comes from eternity Matthew 25:46 These will go away into punishment of eternity, but the righteous into life OF ETERNITY.” - It is called eternal punishment because it comes from eternity, in direct contact with eternity. - It is called eternal life because it comes from eternity, in direct contact with eternity Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit doesn’t have forgiveness in the age, but is guilty of sin RELATING TO ETERNITY.” - I doubt that you think the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit never ends as though once you start you never ever stop. Its called an eternal sin because it is committed against eternity or directly against the Eternal One. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These people will pay the penalty of destruction OF ETERNITY, from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, - It is called eternal destruction because it comes from eternity, in direct contact with eternity Hebrews 6:2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and about the resurrection of the dead and judgment OF ETERNITY. - I doubt you think eternal judgment means that judgment never ends. It is called eternal judgment because it comes from eternity, in direct contact with eternity Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of fire OF ETERNITY. - Sodom is an example of undergoing Eternal fire and yet the fire did not burn without end. It is called eternal fire because it comes directly from eternity.
I've been in the Christian universalism camp now for at least 5 years. I graduated from a hopeful universalist position of theologians like Karl Barth and von Barthazar to confident universalusm because it was the only logical conclusion and because any other position cannot position in all honesty that " God is love". Thanks for this.
Amen.
I like the argument for free choice from the analogy of putting your hand into a fire.
It's good to a point. But if that wrong choice is predicated on behavior and beliefs you were taught as a child by parents in good faith -- e.g. being raised a Muslim, or atheist, or Hindu, etc. -- then there is likely nothing irrational about that choice since it's based on all you know. Wrong choices are often made because of simple and understandable ignorance.
@ That's why it's about whether it's a free choice, not whether it's rational.
@@stormburn1 I see your point, but Randal focuses on the "irrational act" aspect of this argument, when in reality, simple ignorance is the reason the vast majority of the time (assuming Kurt's version of universalism is correct).
@ Sounds like a minor difference in framing. Either way, it's an argument that nobody who disbelieves could reasonably be held accountable as it would be equivalent to holding someone accountable for holding their hand in the flames rather than acknowledging some other fault is in play.
I have seen Curt Parton on other channels. I am glad his book is getting exposure.
Is there anything about the word ‘aiṓnios’ that relegates it to posthumus existence? If it means 'pertaining to the age', as Kurt Parton says, why couldn’t it refer to the misery of the existence of living this kind of selfish life of not caring for people in the present age or perhaps in the period of history that would follow the death of Jesus? Couldn’t the misery of living a life of not loving God or my neighbor be a kind of hell itself? Could our mentality in western society be so warped that we perceive caring for each other as a chore and taking care of number one a desired way of life? Maybe this loss of perspective is causing us to live in hell right now?
I always thought that universalism only makes sense if one accepts the logic of Calvinist double predestination, since scripture says it is God's heart that all repent and none be destroyed.
But for those of us who believe it has been delegated by God for people to choose him or not, then the concept doesn't make sense.
If the Satan and demonic spirits who had all knowledge could choose to turn away from the light, then apostasy and denial is possible.
Universalism is infinitely less objectionable than ECT, but if Jesus being the only road to salvation means that non-Christians still have to spend significant time in Hell, gross iniquities still exist.
Take three people, all of them equally loving and kind, and desirous of avoiding sin and doing the right thing throughout their lives. The only significant difference is the religious faith they were raised in and live by -- one a Christian, one a Muslim, and the other a Hindu. They were all taught that the religion of their parents was the one true faith, and they were never given cause to seriously consider that theirs was a false religion, just like the experience of billions of religious people around the world today.
In this case, what possible reason is there for sending the Muslim and the Hindu to Hell for any length of time at all, if the Christian gets an express ticket to Heaven simply because they happened to be born into the right religious tradition? And that's before we even consider the near infinite ways in which free will is taken from billions of people long before they are capable of exercising their free will in any considered way, if they ever do.
One more trivial point -- it's a little odd to describe God as being ultimately victorious for saving the totality of his creation when he controls every aspect of his creation and has done from the very beginning. That's as impressive as Vince Mcmahon one year during his ownership of the WWE deciding that he was going to be the WWE World Champion.
Surely there is only one outcome -- the outcome that an omniscient omnipotent God desired and foresaw from the very start.
mfs will complain about ANYTHING 😂😂 like how could the position of everybody going to heaven eventually even bother you??
How about this for a universalist position? Life, all life, human and otherwise, is eternal at its core. Thus death in this world is but a transition into a another one. The whole thing is therefore "natural", structural, simply the way God set things up. Add in the idea that one's place or position in the next world, as a human being, is determined by the way one lived his or her life, not as a matter of individual judgment but rather, again, as a structural aspect of human existence, and one would seem to have come close to a universal, not merely a universalist, religion.
Wouldn't it be more useful if God showed unconditional love rather than torturing people into repentance?
Did you watch the discussion? Nobody said that.
@@Randal_Rauser That's the problem. It might have been nice if one of you had mentioned that possibility. Otherwise you have people who may repent solely to avoid the further torment of hell.
@jeffdanelek2132 nobody endorses the position you describe so it is just a troll. Too bad.
@@Randal_Rauser Not a troll at all, Randal. Just an ex Christian who challenges you to think outside the box you've built around yourself. Sounds like you're just more interested in dismissing anything you find uncomfortable as being trolled. Too bad.
@@jeffdanelek2132 But more like a troll, no universal reconciler imagines hell as a place of torment, rather as a place of distance from God. And of course God can fail and some people stay in hell voluntarily. The universal reconcilers don't have more than hope. And Troll is right: if you criticize the concept of universal reconciliation (and offer atheism as an alternative of all things) you should already know it.
Very little scriptural support for universalism presented in this conversation.
As a Biblical UniversalistI tell “traditionalists” that I understand “eternal” in the bible to be Mirriem Websters definition 1b… “of eternity” “relating to eternity”.
eternal
adjective
1
a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING
eternal damnation
b : of or relating to eternity
Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the fire OF ETERNITY which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
- Sodom is an example of undergoing Eternal fire and yet the fire did not burn without end. It is called eternal fire because it comes from eternity
Matthew 25:46
These will go away into punishment of eternity, but the righteous into life OF ETERNITY.”
- It is called eternal punishment because it comes from eternity, in direct contact with eternity.
- It is called eternal life because it comes from eternity, in direct contact with eternity
Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit doesn’t have forgiveness in the age, but is guilty of sin RELATING TO ETERNITY.”
- I doubt that you think the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit never ends as though once you start you never ever stop. Its called an eternal sin because it is committed against eternity or directly against the Eternal One.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These people will pay the penalty of destruction OF ETERNITY, from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
- It is called eternal destruction because it comes from eternity, in direct contact with eternity
Hebrews 6:2
of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and about the resurrection of the dead and judgment OF ETERNITY.
- I doubt you think eternal judgment means that judgment never ends. It is called eternal judgment because it comes from eternity, in direct contact with eternity
Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of fire OF ETERNITY.
- Sodom is an example of undergoing Eternal fire and yet the fire did not burn without end. It is called eternal fire because it comes directly from eternity.
Don't you think arguments from the Greek texts are stronger? The Bible wasn't written in English, after all.
@@ksan1648
what would be an argument from the Greek?
In my experience it boils down to english grammar and interpretation