Thanks everyone for all the positive feedback recently! 😊 It's nice knowing that so many people are interested in the quirkier, more scientific side of cycling. What topic(s) would you like me to explore in future videos? 🤔
Length of chainstays and how it relates to different terrains/fitting different kit etc would be interesting, path less pedalled recently had a bike with super long stays on his channel would be interested in your take (:
Waiting to take delivery on a Schlumpf Mountain Drive. I live in the mountains of Maine. Tried several ebike options but the weight is just too much with extra batteries. Any reviews of Schlumpf?
I've worked on a few bikes with a schlumpf. They're ok. Just ok. If I had a bike with a rear derailleur I'd put a crank with multiple front chainrings such as a triple. If the low gear is too low you'll fall over, a bit more realistic is why bother walking. My mtb has a 20 tooth inner chainring which when combined with a 34 tooth rear cog gives a low gear which is low enough to solidly put it into the range of why bother walking. If you have a drivetrain without derailleurs such as with an internally geared rear hub (rohloff's are expensive but recommended) but want a super low low gear they are worth considering. That said rohloff will void the warranty if the chainring/cog combination is too low. I don't know about the warranties of other IGH hubs offhand. I believe that typically you're limited to single chainring setups with a schlumpf which would give you a smaller gear range than a triple chainring setup with considerably more weight and proprietary parts, proprietary tools (which virtually no bike shop will have) and as far as I could tell no improvement in reliability vs a triple chainring setup. I've wrenched on a few bikes with schlumpf's and if I was given a bike with a schlumpf I'd spend money to remove it and replace it.
I like how firm my alu bike is when climbing. But rocky descents are rattling my bones. I just can't afford those crazy bikes and I'm so glad some lower end-ish exist that I might consider in the future. Thanks for mentioning the Basso Terra
You are biggest name on gravel/bikepacking world. Your studies and videos just like science articles. Saves me searching hundreds of resources and spending dozens of hours.
@@GOTTHEDAWGINME yea you're exactly right. I'm saying people have been taking this gravel bike things to extremes and just been making bad mtbs. A gravel bike should still be quite quick on asphalt and isn't intended to be used on really nasty off-road stuff (at least not for very long). But people have been making these monstrosities that are basically rigid mtbs with bad handlebars, all of the cons of a MTb and a road bike with none of the pros.
I took a Cannondale Topstone away for weekend and was blown away with how comfortable it was and how it handled single track. Just had no idea how far gravel bikes had crept into the mountain bike territory. was bloody fantastic as heaps of gravel and a little road to cover as well. Would have hated to do that on a mtb.
10 years from now: "Full suspension gravel bikes with 200mm travel. They are indistinguishable from downhill bikes but they are gravel bikes, because we can charge more for them"
@@justnothing8692 yeah. BOOST FORK, BOOST FRAME. shitty ass 2 inch tires with special Gravel formula that will run you 80 bucks a pop and get absolutely fistet in the forest. "Ew, are those roots? Is this loam? I'm allergic!" - shit ass Gravel tire probably.
Yeah, the marketing departments are „working“ hard on us. In 10 years we‘re back where we started in the late 80s….just discovering that it was already the best you can get back then 😂
- I want a full suspension Gravel Bike! One minute... (swaps out Handlebars and tires on a full suspension MTB) Here you go, that will be an extra $1,000.
I'm kind an old hand here, but long out of it, seeing this profusion of bikes, ideas, and the huge numbers, at 63, it is quite important to me, to hear what all the young guys and girls, men and women are saying, because I'll never be young enough again, to try and do the discovery you have done. Your intro was superb, you outlined the real issues, the means to resolve the data to answers, and you provided a sound, solid vehicle to carry the truth of your findings. I've spent a lifetime in research in air flow, fluid dynamics, all the issues of engines, and related parts, but in doing so, having spent it analyzing the flex, efficiency of energy return, percentage of heat loss, as you have well illustrated. We are advanced as we are, because most of us willfully share our interests and data with all interested, because those who share, find it returned. This is an issue I've dealt with to an extreme in jets, cars, motorcycles, helicopters, because it impinges on every link and coupling, with enormous numbers in choppers, and of the utmost importance to staying up in the air. I got a lot out of this, precisely because I've never had the venue to study it, and if I had, I'd have to have not spent the time, somewhere else. Great video, valuable information for anyone who will study and apply it. Thanks much!
These gravel bikes are just mountain bikes from the 90s... apart from different frame geometry, handlebars, brake technology, driver train and wheel sizes!
Thank you so much for these Videos! I really appreciate that you use actual data and not just opinion and unnecessary "live" testing like on GCN. They are just advertising. You are awesome! Congratulations for 100k subscribers by the way :) looking forward to the next Digit
It's also important that the suspension of the seatpost has no effect on loads you carry on the bike (other than seatbags of course) so with loaded touring you can get a lot more benefit from frame suspension
Your analysis is interesting but it doest take into account the suspension behavior while standing up on the pedal. I know that gravel road are mostly ridden ass on the saddle but still. These technology are espacially designed to provide taction,comfort and speed on ruff downhill rides and technical uphill terrain when you need to balance you weight around . So this test is unfortunatly half incomplete. Cool tho. :)
Just pick a bike thats suitable to where your going. Mountain bike for mountain and unpaved area. Road bike for roads. If you wanna go both on and off road, choose dual sport
why we are all making this so much more complicated 😭😭 hardtail gravel is just what we need. innovation makes much more expensive 😭 to the point it’s not affordable
In awe of your intelligence and wisdom. A vegan. A thinker. A cycle tourist. A cycling encyclopaedia. Maintains among the very best cycle tech -related blogs. And a daredevil, who's survived accidents that would split most people's ghosts from their flesh - almost unscathed.
IMHO what determines if something is or not a gimmick is the price that theyll put on the frames. Also, now im thinking how much comfort you can have from adjusting the tyre setup. Awesome work as always Alee, THANKS
This is a really good video with interesting information. All my bikes are Softrides which they stopped making 20 years ago- they really are outstanding on road and gravel. I was considering getting a Topstone until I found out it used some sort of goofy BB/crank combo.
Extra benefits: Looks good Not common Lighter than usual style of rear suspension No need to buy the expensive seat post aswell if the bike already has this Provides more of the retro mountain bike feel that people keep saying about gravel bikes 👍
Jeesus, how do you make such great videos while ON the road. The graphics, the finding of the appropriate footage, the editing and whatnot.....not to mention your -I guess- scientific analysis of cycling. WOW!
This is so useless! Take a MTB then with front fork suspension because that's what you are missing when rattling down. Or just lower the pressure in your tire. Not that stupid rubber block with dampening properties. It will be broken after 2 years of use because of the sun/water/sand and then you can't get spare parts anywhere because it is "discontinued...".
Front suspension fork is much more weight (and more maintenance), vs other solutions which deliver much of the benefit at removing vibration when cycling on gravel-type surfaces
It is not useless at all. Gravel and road riders are used to speed and accelaration which can't be achieved with a suspension Fork. I suggest just go and test one for a week on mixed terrain. You will change your mind
I’d not seen this type of suspension till Friday when a guy rocked up at Leeds Bike Park on a BMC that was kitted with it (kind of reminds me of the elastomers you used to get on the old Proflex) and now a couple of days later there a video on UA-cam …. Somebody’s watching me! After watching him ride, it definitely works, and I’d imagine makes the ride more comfortable. Don’t think you’d want to start hucking the bike off 15 foot drop offs though!!
Suspension Gravel bikes are just 90s mountain bikes but what are 90s mountain bikes with drop bars? Hella fun. I converted an old Rocky Mountain ALTITUDE T.O. with steel Tange Superlight Prestige tubing to a gravel/monster cross bike with maxxis ikon 2.4" tires, carbon 26.8 suspension seatpost, shimano xt components, carbon fiber fork and it's been a blast riding on singletrack. It's so comfortable and I like the different hand positions that a drop bar offers. It looks amazing also
It's important to consider seatpost deflection, but it's no substitute for actual frame suspension. Especially for gravel with its high frequency, the vibrations your feet and legs still feel with a seatpost only option are considerable.
The fundamental question in rear suspension is first identifying the dynamic stiffness of the frame relative to a seatpost. In my opinion suspensions built into the frame are very expensive. It is better just to but a relatively stiff frame and then to carefully choose and calibrate a suspension seatpost.
That bikepacker 1:37 - 1:40 fighting the uphill battle looks PAINFUL You may not hear it, but the body is cursing the ground and debatable holiday choices.
This was great! Nerdy deep dive for a very specialized bike segment! I bought a Cannondale Topstone Lefty and was simply amazed by how capable the bike is, so much so that I sold my MTB. I did replace the stock seat post with a Shimano dropper, in theory this removed some of the flex as the Cannondale relies on the seat post to make up some of the flex. Honestly I can't tell the difference. I do run 47mm tires though. I ride some seriously janky trails on the bike as well as fast single track and I am convinced that the small amount of flex offered by both the rear and front suspensions makes the bike super stable! Thanks for doing this deep dive, it was very informative 😁
I just love my 2016 Spz Fuse 27.5 plus, I can use it to commute, mountain bike, bike packing, all with a lot of cushioning and tons of grip, and the rolling resistance isn't that much different of a standard 29er.
My titanium Moots YBB softail is 22 years old - still rides perfectly. Two decades of reading the softail is dead, only to see dozens of manufacturers (re?)inventing a softail.
I ride a full suspension bike with 100mm travel and I can't imagine going without suspension now. My beck used to hurt a ton when riding a hard tail and now I get off the trail and feel great. I ride for fun and comfort though so being more efficient and faster isn't that big of a deal for me.
My opinion on gravel bikes is that they're great if you want to go hard on the uphill and chill on the downhill. Also, it's much more efficient and faster than MTB's. Gravel bikes are for people who know that they want a gravel bike. Lastly, gravel bikes can handel more technical terrain than people realize. Riding off road on a gravel bike is a completely different experience than mountian biking.
unfortunately, canyon's leaf spring post has so many problems that many riders who'd ridden on it do not recommend it. e.g. post slippage, noise, tilt angle slightly changes as you ride it longer.
Another amazing informative video, though I have always had one question: Do you ever wish you had FRONT shocks on your travels? I am shying away from a true gravel bike because the idea of my hands getting beat up is unappealing. I have taken a look at Redshift suspension stems which seems promising, but have not really chosen a path. So I guess that's my question: with your crazy riding locations, how do you not get your hands beat up? Please keep up the amazing videos; all my friends are watching after I got them hooked!
I got the Redshift suspension stem (and the seatpost after his last video) and I'm a total convert. My ride quality is night and day, and the bike rides just as fast. Highly recommend both!
I use the Redshift stem on my trek checkpoint, it's awesome, saves your hand and doesnt add much weight, be sure to check it will fit, didnt work on my canyon grail due to the large size of the tube, shims avaliable are only downnsized.
Lauf forks have been successfully used in The Tour Divide and xc mtb races. They are not suitable for full-on mtb but have their place for gravel etc. Pros: comfort, traction Cons: undamped / ‘pogo’ effect
This nicely supports the point I often hear you make - seatpost is key to comfort on a bike. It is amazing that a simple D shaped seatpost can compete with complex linkage/elastomer designs with a lot of R&D and marketing behind. One of the reasons I keep buying Giant bikes despite the propriatory seatposts. Keep up the fantastic job!
I would never buy a gravel bike with this kind of damper/"suspension". And that's because I bought a Trek FX (flatbar road/hybrid) that had it, the comfort wasn't as good as fitting fatter tyres (nothing really is), the loss of power on smooth roads, especially up hills, was very noticeable .... Aaaaaaaand The thing you don't mention is how does this affect frame durability? After 4 years of very tame riding, it broke a chain stay. An engineer mate looked at the design said the flex was a bad idea and a chain stay (or both) would break at the bottom bracket .... it broke in the middle of the chainstay, but he was still correct. I got a new bike because Trek have a life time warranty on the frame. I still think the idea is flawed
I have this hybrid hard tail MTB which then I switch the handle bar with flared roadbike cockpit. There you go, i have my gravel bike with full suspension fork 😁
I don't really get the hate on gravel bikes. It's just a slightly worse road bike that is capable of going offroad. I've been a mtber in the Alps only from 6 y old to 25 and when I came to Paris, I took my old hardtail with me, but mtb there is mostly easy and boring and the few interresting spots ask for a lot of flat riding to go to. Since I got a 2-by gravel bike, I sure go slower on technical terrain but I have fun in relatively mellow mtb trails with my 40mm tires and I can follow roadie friends in fast rides or even fast packs at Longchamp or Vincennes open velodrome with road wheels+tires. Only with a minimal handicap. And it takes only one bike and two replacement wheels in my small flat. My 10y old hardtail is in the Alps at my parent's where it gets ridden for its intended use (or a little too gnarly for the bike use). An old school mtb couldn't give me that.
I have been riding my local mtb trails with my gravel bike and it works surprisingly well, uphills are a lot easier, rough parts a bit more challenging and downhills somewhat scary. A bit of suspension could make it a lot better.
Frame/fork suspension isn't about comfort. That's an ancillary benefit. Suspension is about maintaining tire contact with the ground over rough terrain. You can't get that from a seatpost modification.
@@Cyclingabout You can tyre optimise with seatpost suspension though, in terms of comfort allowing a smaller tyre to be used. And do steel frames make a difference to traction? I recall professional reviewers saying hard core steel hardtails typcially had more climbing traction than their ali counterparts because of the give in the steel.
@@Cyclingabout This is assuming that a suspension seatpost does not help with all of these things. It would be interesting to test this hypothesis. Sure, having only a suspension seatpost leaves a lot more unsprung mass, and the geometry is not ideal for maintaining traction, but it still carries the heaviest part of the system so i'd guess that it improves things at least to an extent.
Well , they're meant to go off-road and mountain bikes have been doing that for a long time. Pedal Bob is also a linkage thing, some MTBs have been designed to not have pedal bob . At least if you stay seated lol. But why are dropper posts considered very stiff vertically? Mine has a cushion effect , if the impact is hard, it will go down and back up .
Since a few years already, I own a (pseudo) gravel bike and is most annoying about it are the vibrations in cobbled or stone flat paths. Some kind of rear suspension would increment riding comfort, besides traction of course. Sometimes it is difficult to decide whether to choose the gravel of full-sus MTB for some routes. I guess after some time I will buy one gravel with some kind of simple, nimble suspension (meaning not like the one of a full-sus MTB).
Funk La Ruta, Castellano Silk Ti, Moots ybb to name a few of the better ones. The ybb is available a variety of frame types I believe (MTB, and used to make a cyclocross version).
Brooks Flyer or a suspension seat post are a whole lot cheaper than a specialist frame but... If you are mesmerised by technology, have the cash then get what you want. If you're not racing and just want to go in comfort, there is a lot of cheaper options. For me... I'd go Niner. And supple tyres.
That was interesting. Thanks. I have been interested in the Willier Cento for a while but wasn't sure if the elastomer shock was worth it. I'd say yes, but then again you can just put a suspension post on your bike. I did that with my Kona Sutra. It's in the bike shop ready for pick up. The seat post wasn't all that expensive but I'm sure it will make a comfort difference in the end. Keep up the good work. 👍☮️🌞🌟🚲
Gravel bikes are basically mountain bikes for roadies in denial. Don't be so stiff about it (heh), there's nothing wrong about putting road tires on an MTB and using it on routes. It's not aero? I only see slightly more leg work, for how much lycra you wear the biggest non-aero thing about the bike will always remain you, anyway. With that said, gravel bikes still look sweet with much less visual clutter so I'd say there's still a point to having them.
Could have added Trek with their IsoSpeed Decoupler. They were actually one of the first to the gravel market if you don't count the softtail types like the YBB from Moots and such. But definitely before C'dale, Wiler, and Basso.
The Isospeed Decoupler is not a form of rear suspension, as it doesn't allow the rear axle to move when you hit a bump. Isospeed Decouplers perform the same role as a flex seatpost (ie. they're only activated when you sit down).
I've been riding full suspension mountain bikes for over 20 years and I just picked up a Cannondale topstone lefty carbon 3. This is the best bike I have ever ridden and the suspension in the frame is perfectly matched to the fork to offer a road suspension system that is lacking the market becasue manufacturers are afraid of the wrath of the weight weenies. Roadies are going the be roadies and they will scoff at the idea of carrying extra weight and moan about the complexity. Whatever, those who know the benefits of suspension are going to be enjoying the ride more than people beating themselves up day after day on their overly rigid units.
In my opinion, the three base bicycle types are MTB, road and BMX. All these hybrid types are going too far mostly for marketing purpose and confusion among people who go into a bicycle store and just want to buy a bicycle for casual riding.
A part of me wonders if this is a lot of money to gain around 2mph? You could just fit slightly wider tyres to gain the same comfort, traction, grip, and be just a little bit slower. I would like to see the figures and science showing this comparison.
www.renehersecycles.com/journal/ Read some of these. The answer is yes. But wider lower pressure tires PLUS suspension seat post PLUS suspension frame...is even better. Or do what i do and just get a 23 pound XC mountain bike with 2.5 inch tires and 4+ inches of suspension. Its great.
Is there any noticeable difference at the handlebars vs a suspension or flexy seatpost? If not then really the only advantage is that you can get a dropper or combine with a flexy seatpost for extra seat suspension.
The reduction of vibration or the confort gain is negligible, compared with a normal piston suspension, and the price to achieve it is high, with this fancy bikes. A Chinese MT with suspension on both wheels can be purchased on 200USD, lacking nothing. So, what's the advantage?
Me who watches Blake Samson riding the craziest stuff on a hardtail: Who needs rear suspension on a Gravel Bike to improve control? I honestly rather ride a hardtail and have a seat or seatpost that can absorb some vibrations and tiny bumps. Any kind of full suspension frame costs like twice than a Hardtail doesn't it?
I agree with those who find a suspension seatpost more useful. Even a good carbon seatpost could make additional suspensioon obsolete, especially combined with wider tires.
Seatposts do nothing to improve traction. Frame/fork suspension is about maintaining tire contact with the ground. You can't get this from a seatpost. And fat tires only dampen the forces on your body, the bike is still absorbing them (in the tires). This is why on rough terrain, balloony fat bikes bounce around even more than a smaller tired hardtail.
20+ years on, (and hundreds of thousands of hours enjoying their rides), my soft-tail ti cross and mtb frames ("Vail Cycle Works") continue to rock. Zero power loss and maintenance, (unlike the ybb frames which always get "stiction" in their elastomer stacks due to contamination from gravel bits, my frames have small rubber boots protecting the shafts). I will never utilize full suspension, nor will I ever use hardtails!
I never understood the gravel bike concept. Either you ride on the road and you need a road bike or your ride on mountain trails and you need an mountain bike. Am I wrong? Am i missing something?
My cgr seat post with nothing but an elastomer is the difference between a very sore bum at the end of a long day or no issue at all after many consecutive very long days. This is pavement and gravel road riding I'm talking about not rock hopping.
At this point we should just force sram and shimano to use interchangeable shifters and derailleurs so we can have drop or flat bars even on enduro bikes. Tbh that wouldn't be optimal but at least anyone could have an xc bike with drops and this whole grey area wouldn't need to exist between the gravel and mtb
Thanks everyone for all the positive feedback recently! 😊 It's nice knowing that so many people are interested in the quirkier, more scientific side of cycling. What topic(s) would you like me to explore in future videos? 🤔
Length of chainstays and how it relates to different terrains/fitting different kit etc would be interesting, path less pedalled recently had a bike with super long stays on his channel would be interested in your take (:
@Ed You've read my mind. A video with the nuances of chainstay length will be available in the next few weeks!
Waiting to take delivery on a Schlumpf Mountain Drive. I live in the mountains of Maine. Tried several ebike options but the weight is just too much with extra batteries.
Any reviews of Schlumpf?
I've worked on a few bikes with a schlumpf. They're ok. Just ok. If I had a bike with a rear derailleur I'd put a crank with multiple front chainrings such as a triple. If the low gear is too low you'll fall over, a bit more realistic is why bother walking. My mtb has a 20 tooth inner chainring which when combined with a 34 tooth rear cog gives a low gear which is low enough to solidly put it into the range of why bother walking. If you have a drivetrain without derailleurs such as with an internally geared rear hub (rohloff's are expensive but recommended) but want a super low low gear they are worth considering. That said rohloff will void the warranty if the chainring/cog combination is too low. I don't know about the warranties of other IGH hubs offhand. I believe that typically you're limited to single chainring setups with a schlumpf which would give you a smaller gear range than a triple chainring setup with considerably more weight and proprietary parts, proprietary tools (which virtually no bike shop will have) and as far as I could tell no improvement in reliability vs a triple chainring setup. I've wrenched on a few bikes with schlumpf's and if I was given a bike with a schlumpf I'd spend money to remove it and replace it.
I like how firm my alu bike is when climbing. But rocky descents are rattling my bones. I just can't afford those crazy bikes and I'm so glad some lower end-ish exist that I might consider in the future. Thanks for mentioning the Basso Terra
Fantastic channel - a true beacon of light amidst the misinformed chatter of other bicycle "reviewers" on UA-cam
You are biggest name on gravel/bikepacking world. Your studies and videos just like science articles.
Saves me searching hundreds of resources and spending dozens of hours.
"Gravel bikes are just mountain bikes with s****y handlebars"...
Martyn Ashton
😁😁😁
In a nutshell.
Yea unfortunately. I love the idea of a road bike with big tires and all this faffing with flared drops, suspensions, MTb geometry seems so dumb...
@@mango9087 It's because an mtb is for rough terrain, big drops and such, using a road bike to make drops like that will break it immediately
@@GOTTHEDAWGINME yea you're exactly right. I'm saying people have been taking this gravel bike things to extremes and just been making bad mtbs. A gravel bike should still be quite quick on asphalt and isn't intended to be used on really nasty off-road stuff (at least not for very long). But people have been making these monstrosities that are basically rigid mtbs with bad handlebars, all of the cons of a MTb and a road bike with none of the pros.
@@mango9087 Yeah, I prefer Mtbs but I like road bikes and gravels as well, so I bought an XC as a compromise, light and sturdy.
I took a Cannondale Topstone away for weekend and was blown away with how comfortable it was and how it handled single track. Just had no idea how far gravel bikes had crept into the mountain bike territory. was bloody fantastic as heaps of gravel and a little road to cover as well. Would have hated to do that on a mtb.
This comment speaks volumes
10 years from now:
"Full suspension gravel bikes with 200mm travel. They are indistinguishable from downhill bikes but they are gravel bikes, because we can charge more for them"
more likely downhill bike that can only fit trash tires
@@justnothing8692 yeah. BOOST FORK, BOOST FRAME. shitty ass 2 inch tires with special Gravel formula that will run you 80 bucks a pop and get absolutely fistet in the forest.
"Ew, are those roots? Is this loam? I'm allergic!" - shit ass Gravel tire probably.
Moulton were doing this over 50 years ago. And those bike are still awesome, foldable and FAST.
In 10 years you’ll have full suspension gravel bikes, so basically get MTB and put drop bars on it.
Yeah, the marketing departments are „working“ hard on us. In 10 years we‘re back where we started in the late 80s….just discovering that it was already the best you can get back then 😂
And yet road bikes has no front and rear suspension. This suspension reminds me of Bropton.
Thought of this in 2008
Under biking is so much fun. Take a 90's MTB out on a blue trail, you'll be laughing in terror😃
@@glennpettersson9002 yeah, and they’re still more than just capable (except maybe hardcore DH descents) 💪🏼
- I want full suspension Gravel Bike!
- Ok, maybe You need MTB?
- No, no give me Gravel 🤯
- I want a full suspension Gravel Bike!
One minute... (swaps out Handlebars and tires on a full suspension MTB)
Here you go, that will be an extra $1,000.
100% 👍
@@Shindinru my gravel bike costs significantly less than my full suspension mtb
@@Shindinru MTB with dropbar or gravel bike with suspension don't mind what people call them but that's what I want.
I'm kind an old hand here, but long out of it, seeing this profusion of bikes, ideas, and the huge numbers, at 63, it is quite important to me, to hear what all the young guys and girls, men and women are saying, because I'll never be young enough again, to try and do the discovery you have done. Your intro was superb, you outlined the real issues, the means to resolve the data to answers, and you provided a sound, solid vehicle to carry the truth of your findings. I've spent a lifetime in research in air flow, fluid dynamics, all the issues of engines, and related parts, but in doing so, having spent it analyzing the flex, efficiency of energy return, percentage of heat loss, as you have well illustrated. We are advanced as we are, because most of us willfully share our interests and data with all interested, because those who share, find it returned. This is an issue I've dealt with to an extreme in jets, cars, motorcycles, helicopters, because it impinges on every link and coupling, with enormous numbers in choppers, and of the utmost importance to staying up in the air. I got a lot out of this, precisely because I've never had the venue to study it, and if I had, I'd have to have not spent the time, somewhere else. Great video, valuable information for anyone who will study and apply it. Thanks much!
but having suspension on the seatpost isn't equal to having it on the rear triangle, so why the comparison..
Because it is comparable for rider comfort, which is where he mentions it
Yeah! Seatpost suspension is for your butt only. Rear wheel suspension is for your ankles, knees and hips, too.
These gravel bikes are just mountain bikes from the 90s... apart from different frame geometry, handlebars, brake technology, driver train and wheel sizes!
Thank you so much for these Videos! I really appreciate that you use actual data and not just opinion and unnecessary "live" testing like on GCN. They are just advertising. You are awesome! Congratulations for 100k subscribers by the way :) looking forward to the next Digit
It's also important that the suspension of the seatpost has no effect on loads you carry on the bike (other than seatbags of course) so with loaded touring you can get a lot more benefit from frame suspension
........ yeah, because all that luggage (sleeping bag/tent/clothing etc) REALLY needs protecting from vibration. right ???? #UNDISGUISEDFOOL
cool story bro
Next new "trend" in gravel bikes riser bars.
Your analysis is interesting but it doest take into account the suspension behavior while standing up on the pedal. I know that gravel road are mostly ridden ass on the saddle but still. These technology are espacially designed to provide taction,comfort and speed on ruff downhill rides and technical uphill terrain when you need to balance you weight around .
So this test is unfortunatly half incomplete.
Cool tho. :)
Just pick a bike thats suitable to where your going. Mountain bike for mountain and unpaved area. Road bike for roads. If you wanna go both on and off road, choose dual sport
why we are all making this so much more complicated 😭😭 hardtail gravel is just what we need. innovation makes much more expensive 😭 to the point it’s not affordable
the kingpin suspension on my cannondale topstone was overtorqued from factory, but now that i've fixed it it's SO GOOD
In awe of your intelligence and wisdom. A vegan. A thinker. A cycle tourist. A cycling encyclopaedia. Maintains among the very best cycle tech -related blogs. And a daredevil, who's survived accidents that would split most people's ghosts from their flesh - almost unscathed.
IMHO what determines if something is or not a gimmick is the price that theyll put on the frames. Also, now im thinking how much comfort you can have from adjusting the tyre setup.
Awesome work as always Alee, THANKS
This is a really good video with interesting information. All my bikes are Softrides which they stopped making 20 years ago- they really are outstanding on road and gravel. I was considering getting a Topstone until I found out it used some sort of goofy BB/crank combo.
Those Softride bikes are crazy.
@@andresbarriga5305 I love mine
My lower back appreciates suspension very much! So this topic is near and dear to my rear! Thanks for putting this together!
As an engineer and cyclist, i can say this is the best content on UA-cam!
Check out Peak Torque too!
The "sidewards" stiffness always suffers from this as well. No bearing works without free play.
Extra benefits:
Looks good
Not common
Lighter than usual style of rear suspension
No need to buy the expensive seat post aswell if the bike already has this
Provides more of the retro mountain bike feel that people keep saying about gravel bikes 👍
I love this kind of data-driven look at bike components. Awesome video!
Jeesus, how do you make such great videos while ON the road. The graphics, the finding of the appropriate footage, the editing and whatnot.....not to mention your -I guess- scientific analysis of cycling. WOW!
I miss your Cyclingabout the Americas videos, but I love these informative videos just as much!
Newton's are capital N, and millimetres are lower case mm. n = nano. MM = Mega Mega.
Yep - absolutely.
Always looks terrible when S.I. units are mis-represented.
This is so useless! Take a MTB then with front fork suspension because that's what you are missing when rattling down. Or just lower the pressure in your tire. Not that stupid rubber block with dampening properties. It will be broken after 2 years of use because of the sun/water/sand and then you can't get spare parts anywhere because it is "discontinued...".
Front suspension fork is much more weight (and more maintenance), vs other solutions which deliver much of the benefit at removing vibration when cycling on gravel-type surfaces
It is not useless at all. Gravel and road riders are used to speed and accelaration which can't be achieved with a suspension Fork. I suggest just go and test one for a week on mixed terrain. You will change your mind
I’d not seen this type of suspension till Friday when a guy rocked up at Leeds Bike Park on a BMC that was kitted with it (kind of reminds me of the elastomers you used to get on the old Proflex) and now a couple of days later there a video on UA-cam …. Somebody’s watching me!
After watching him ride, it definitely works, and I’d imagine makes the ride more comfortable. Don’t think you’d want to start hucking the bike off 15 foot drop offs though!!
Suspension Gravel bikes are just 90s mountain bikes but what are 90s mountain bikes with drop bars? Hella fun. I converted an old Rocky Mountain ALTITUDE T.O. with steel Tange Superlight Prestige tubing to a gravel/monster cross bike with maxxis ikon 2.4" tires, carbon 26.8 suspension seatpost, shimano xt components, carbon fiber fork and it's been a blast riding on singletrack. It's so comfortable and I like the different hand positions that a drop bar offers. It looks amazing also
It's important to consider seatpost deflection, but it's no substitute for actual frame suspension.
Especially for gravel with its high frequency, the vibrations your feet and legs still feel with a seatpost only option are considerable.
Elastomer softails deal with high frequency deflections better than traditional air / oil shocks.
The fundamental question in rear suspension is first identifying the dynamic stiffness of the frame relative to a seatpost.
In my opinion suspensions built into the frame are very expensive. It is better just to but a relatively stiff frame and then to carefully choose and calibrate a suspension seatpost.
That bikepacker 1:37 - 1:40 fighting the uphill battle looks PAINFUL
You may not hear it, but the body is cursing the ground and debatable holiday choices.
As always great videos with good quality information. Thanks!
This was great! Nerdy deep dive for a very specialized bike segment! I bought a Cannondale Topstone Lefty and was simply amazed by how capable the bike is, so much so that I sold my MTB. I did replace the stock seat post with a Shimano dropper, in theory this removed some of the flex as the Cannondale relies on the seat post to make up some of the flex. Honestly I can't tell the difference. I do run 47mm tires though. I ride some seriously janky trails on the bike as well as fast single track and I am convinced that the small amount of flex offered by both the rear and front suspensions makes the bike super stable! Thanks for doing this deep dive, it was very informative 😁
Day by day I addicted to your channel 🐱🐱
Full suspension for bikepacking should be the norm. I don't know about racing or whatever, but shocks definitely provide so much more comfort.
I just love my 2016 Spz Fuse 27.5 plus, I can use it to commute, mountain bike, bike packing, all with a lot of cushioning and tons of grip, and the rolling resistance isn't that much different of a standard 29er.
My titanium Moots YBB softail is 22 years old - still rides perfectly.
Two decades of reading the softail is dead, only to see dozens of manufacturers (re?)inventing a softail.
Ever ride a bike with one of those brooks style saddles with the big springs ? Very comfortable.
I ride a full suspension bike with 100mm travel and I can't imagine going without suspension now. My beck used to hurt a ton when riding a hard tail and now I get off the trail and feel great. I ride for fun and comfort though so being more efficient and faster isn't that big of a deal for me.
My opinion on gravel bikes is that they're great if you want to go hard on the uphill and chill on the downhill. Also, it's much more efficient and faster than MTB's. Gravel bikes are for people who know that they want a gravel bike. Lastly, gravel bikes can handel more technical terrain than people realize. Riding off road on a gravel bike is a completely different experience than mountian biking.
Some real Tomac vibes at Mammoth with that opening Cannondale clip!
Thank you very much - once again. So much information, so well put together.
A soft saddle won't change a thing if you are not sitting on it, which isn't the case for in an frame suspension.
unfortunately, canyon's leaf spring post has so many problems that many riders who'd ridden on it do not recommend it. e.g. post slippage, noise, tilt angle slightly changes as you ride it longer.
That seat post creeks like a freaking hyena
Another amazing informative video, though I have always had one question:
Do you ever wish you had FRONT shocks on your travels? I am shying away from a true gravel bike because the idea of my hands getting beat up is unappealing. I have taken a look at Redshift suspension stems which seems promising, but have not really chosen a path.
So I guess that's my question: with your crazy riding locations, how do you not get your hands beat up?
Please keep up the amazing videos; all my friends are watching after I got them hooked!
I got the Redshift suspension stem (and the seatpost after his last video) and I'm a total convert. My ride quality is night and day, and the bike rides just as fast. Highly recommend both!
@@AntoineGrondin Thanks for the recommendation!
I use the Redshift stem on my trek checkpoint, it's awesome, saves your hand and doesnt add much weight, be sure to check it will fit, didnt work on my canyon grail due to the large size of the tube, shims avaliable are only downnsized.
@@2dchrisk Thanks for the detail!
Lauf forks have been successfully used in The Tour Divide and xc mtb races.
They are not suitable for full-on mtb but have their place for gravel etc.
Pros: comfort, traction
Cons: undamped / ‘pogo’ effect
This nicely supports the point I often hear you make - seatpost is key to comfort on a bike. It is amazing that a simple D shaped seatpost can compete with complex linkage/elastomer designs with a lot of R&D and marketing behind. One of the reasons I keep buying Giant bikes despite the propriatory seatposts. Keep up the fantastic job!
I would never buy a gravel bike with this kind of damper/"suspension". And that's because I bought a Trek FX (flatbar road/hybrid) that had it, the comfort wasn't as good as fitting fatter tyres (nothing really is), the loss of power on smooth roads, especially up hills, was very noticeable .... Aaaaaaaand
The thing you don't mention is how does this affect frame durability? After 4 years of very tame riding, it broke a chain stay. An engineer mate looked at the design said the flex was a bad idea and a chain stay (or both) would break at the bottom bracket .... it broke in the middle of the chainstay, but he was still correct. I got a new bike because Trek have a life time warranty on the frame. I still think the idea is flawed
I have this hybrid hard tail MTB which then I switch the handle bar with flared roadbike cockpit. There you go, i have my gravel bike with full suspension fork 😁
Fascinating, that's a new type of suspension on a gravel bike; just learned something new
So did I but I didn't have to say it.
@@marcinha1973
Nobody said you had to; I wanted to say it so I did
I don't really get the hate on gravel bikes. It's just a slightly worse road bike that is capable of going offroad.
I've been a mtber in the Alps only from 6 y old to 25 and when I came to Paris, I took my old hardtail with me, but mtb there is mostly easy and boring and the few interresting spots ask for a lot of flat riding to go to.
Since I got a 2-by gravel bike, I sure go slower on technical terrain but I have fun in relatively mellow mtb trails with my 40mm tires and I can follow roadie friends in fast rides or even fast packs at Longchamp or Vincennes open velodrome with road wheels+tires. Only with a minimal handicap.
And it takes only one bike and two replacement wheels in my small flat. My 10y old hardtail is in the Alps at my parent's where it gets ridden for its intended use (or a little too gnarly for the bike use).
An old school mtb couldn't give me that.
I have been riding my local mtb trails with my gravel bike and it works surprisingly well, uphills are a lot easier, rough parts a bit more challenging and downhills somewhat scary. A bit of suspension could make it a lot better.
Why not just use a suspension seatpost? Less weight, less complexity, replaceable and changeable dependin gon just how the rider likes it.
I explained traction, bike control, momentum and tyre optimisation in the first few minutes of this video. Could be worth a re-watch.
Sus SP allows your butt to move relative to BB which is completely different from when rear triangle deflects, maintaining butt to BB distance.
Frame/fork suspension isn't about comfort. That's an ancillary benefit. Suspension is about maintaining tire contact with the ground over rough terrain. You can't get that from a seatpost modification.
@@Cyclingabout You can tyre optimise with seatpost suspension though, in terms of comfort allowing a smaller tyre to be used. And do steel frames make a difference to traction? I recall professional reviewers saying hard core steel hardtails typcially had more climbing traction than their ali counterparts because of the give in the steel.
@@Cyclingabout This is assuming that a suspension seatpost does not help with all of these things. It would be interesting to test this hypothesis. Sure, having only a suspension seatpost leaves a lot more unsprung mass, and the geometry is not ideal for maintaining traction, but it still carries the heaviest part of the system so i'd guess that it improves things at least to an extent.
"when you put your weight on the bike it can flex up to 5mm"
Me on my 140mm trail bike: rookie numbers
Sure, but your bike's suspension is meant to dampen large bumps and small jumps.
These softtails are meant to dampen vibrations from uneven terrain.
@@cheesuscheetos4076 I know, two very different kind of bikes lol, these gravel bikes would thrash my bike up any fire road climbs
@@cheesuscheetos4076 so basically something the tire with low enough pressure can do.
Well , they're meant to go off-road and mountain bikes have been doing that for a long time. Pedal Bob is also a linkage thing, some MTBs have been designed to not have pedal bob . At least if you stay seated lol.
But why are dropper posts considered very stiff vertically? Mine has a cushion effect , if the impact is hard, it will go down and back up .
You deserve an honorary PhD in bicycle and bikepacking.
Since a few years already, I own a (pseudo) gravel bike and is most annoying about it are the vibrations in cobbled or stone flat paths. Some kind of rear suspension would increment riding comfort, besides traction of course. Sometimes it is difficult to decide whether to choose the gravel of full-sus MTB for some routes. I guess after some time I will buy one gravel with some kind of simple, nimble suspension (meaning not like the one of a full-sus MTB).
Buy suspension seatpost
congratulations for such an awesome video and thanks for sharing it! 👌🥇
Funk La Ruta,
Castellano Silk Ti,
Moots ybb
to name a few of the better ones.
The ybb is available a variety of frame types I believe (MTB, and used to make a cyclocross version).
Brooks Flyer or a suspension seat post are a whole lot cheaper than a specialist frame but... If you are mesmerised by technology, have the cash then get what you want. If you're not racing and just want to go in comfort, there is a lot of cheaper options. For me... I'd go Niner. And supple tyres.
As always.....great job. Thank You !
Protip: Jump 10 years into the future and get an MTB
If it comes with a drop bar for the paved bits, yea why not.
If COMFORT is the main goal, would a GEL SEAT and GEL HAND GRIPS be a better all round option - not interfering with pedal force to the wheels?
Wow! Amazing lesson. AUDIO PERFECT.
That was interesting. Thanks. I have been interested in the Willier Cento for a while but wasn't sure if the elastomer shock was worth it. I'd say yes, but then again you can just put a suspension post on your bike. I did that with my Kona Sutra. It's in the bike shop ready for pick up. The seat post wasn't all that expensive but I'm sure it will make a comfort difference in the end. Keep up the good work. 👍☮️🌞🌟🚲
A suspension seat post won’t improve traction, it will only improve comfort.
Gravel bikes are basically mountain bikes for roadies in denial.
Don't be so stiff about it (heh), there's nothing wrong about putting road tires on an MTB and using it on routes. It's not aero? I only see slightly more leg work, for how much lycra you wear the biggest non-aero thing about the bike will always remain you, anyway.
With that said, gravel bikes still look sweet with much less visual clutter so I'd say there's still a point to having them.
Could have added Trek with their IsoSpeed Decoupler. They were actually one of the first to the gravel market if you don't count the softtail types like the YBB from Moots and such. But definitely before C'dale, Wiler, and Basso.
The Isospeed Decoupler is not a form of rear suspension, as it doesn't allow the rear axle to move when you hit a bump. Isospeed Decouplers perform the same role as a flex seatpost (ie. they're only activated when you sit down).
Trek is already forward with the isospeed
I've been riding full suspension mountain bikes for over 20 years and I just picked up a Cannondale topstone lefty carbon 3. This is the best bike I have ever ridden and the suspension in the frame is perfectly matched to the fork to offer a road suspension system that is lacking the market becasue manufacturers are afraid of the wrath of the weight weenies. Roadies are going the be roadies and they will scoff at the idea of carrying extra weight and moan about the complexity. Whatever, those who know the benefits of suspension are going to be enjoying the ride more than people beating themselves up day after day on their overly rigid units.
In my opinion, the three base bicycle types are MTB, road and BMX. All these hybrid types are going too far mostly for marketing purpose and confusion among people who go into a bicycle store and just want to buy a bicycle for casual riding.
What a fantastic video, thank you
Can't wait when the time comes where gravel bike is just a Trail bike with a drop bar
Why not having some kind of flat bar as well, that could improve the control in rough terrain?
is there a comfort difference between 27 tpi and 170 tpi tyres of the exact same dimensions on the same pressure?
A part of me wonders if this is a lot of money to gain around 2mph? You could just fit slightly wider tyres to gain the same comfort, traction, grip, and be just a little bit slower. I would like to see the figures and science showing this comparison.
Imo, it depends why you're riding. If you're racing, that 2mph is massive. Otherwise, just fit 42-45c tires and be done with it.
that 2mph means that after 5hrs you can be there or 10miles away.. which would you prefer?
www.renehersecycles.com/journal/
Read some of these. The answer is yes.
But wider lower pressure tires PLUS suspension seat post PLUS suspension frame...is even better.
Or do what i do and just get a 23 pound XC mountain bike with 2.5 inch tires and 4+ inches of suspension. Its great.
I ride a 2020 Topstone carbon with the Kingpin and can absolutely feel it taking the bumps. I still prefer my full suspension mountain bike though :-)
Fantastic news, I ordered a titanium frame and was wondering if a carbon frame with suspension would have been better.. Thank you!
Relax. Your titanium frame will still be working for years to come.
Is there any noticeable difference at the handlebars vs a suspension or flexy seatpost? If not then really the only advantage is that you can get a dropper or combine with a flexy seatpost for extra seat suspension.
The reduction of vibration or the confort gain is negligible, compared with a normal piston suspension, and the price to achieve it is high, with this fancy bikes. A Chinese MT with suspension on both wheels can be purchased on 200USD, lacking nothing. So, what's the advantage?
The dolmain has some sort of flex joint. They say it really works.
Well idea is briliant but think practicaly, this amount of axle travel is less than tire and frame is deflecting when riding over bumps
Me who watches Blake Samson riding the craziest stuff on a hardtail: Who needs rear suspension on a Gravel Bike to improve control?
I honestly rather ride a hardtail and have a seat or seatpost that can absorb some vibrations and tiny bumps. Any kind of full suspension frame costs like twice than a Hardtail doesn't it?
I agree with those who find a suspension seatpost more useful. Even a good carbon seatpost could make additional suspensioon obsolete, especially combined with wider tires.
Seatposts do nothing to improve traction. Frame/fork suspension is about maintaining tire contact with the ground. You can't get this from a seatpost. And fat tires only dampen the forces on your body, the bike is still absorbing them (in the tires). This is why on rough terrain, balloony fat bikes bounce around even more than a smaller tired hardtail.
Do you know of any stiffness numbers for various tires at various pressures?
Looks like BMC and Wilier have the same concent... Shame Trek Checkpoint didn't get any data review...
what is your favourite suspension seat post ?
silk eer ?
20+ years on, (and hundreds of thousands of hours enjoying their rides), my soft-tail ti cross and mtb frames ("Vail Cycle Works") continue to rock. Zero power loss and maintenance, (unlike the ybb frames which always get "stiction" in their elastomer stacks due to contamination from gravel bits, my frames have small rubber boots protecting the shafts). I will never utilize full suspension, nor will I ever use hardtails!
Frame suspension vs suspension seatpost? Frame solution is superior due to less weight?
I never understood the gravel bike concept. Either you ride on the road and you need a road bike or your ride on mountain trails and you need an mountain bike. Am I wrong? Am i missing something?
Yes you are missing something.
You are missing the varying road surfaces during single bike trips.
Alee, have you read Jan Heine's book The All Road Bicycle Revolution? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the science he uses in there.
Excellent video and information.
Thanks for sharing.
I'm new here and I'm glad I'm here
I say gimmick.
Not enough shock absorption to make it worth it.
My cgr seat post with nothing but an elastomer is the difference between a very sore bum at the end of a long day or no issue at all after many consecutive very long days. This is pavement and gravel road riding I'm talking about not rock hopping.
Having risen thousands of miles on hardtails and softails for over two decades I would have to disagree JB.
At this point we should just force sram and shimano to use interchangeable shifters and derailleurs so we can have drop or flat bars even on enduro bikes. Tbh that wouldn't be optimal but at least anyone could have an xc bike with drops and this whole grey area wouldn't need to exist between the gravel and mtb
Moulton did it years ago.
and we're back to 90's tech...