Another great video, Bossman 💚 Please keep up with these short format unit reviews. They're a really useful, concise summary. Also, THANK YOU for being the voice of reason: those guys trying to run Grots as Toughness 5 are 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ (and they're going to be the first ones moaning when the inevitable nerf comes.... May as well run them as T2 from the beginning and enjoy the fluff factor).
It's the reason I started this channel in the first place and it's the reason I have restarted it now. There has been a real lack of good Orky content for a while now. Some great channels out there for sure, but not enough.
I've been wrestling with the question about Grot toughness in melee too. It does sound a bit mad but when you read the rules, it does read that they should have the runtherd toughness in melee but grot toughness for ranged. Maybe if we consider toughness to not represent how tough a Grot is but rather how tough it is to actually hit one properly and also consider what psychological impact a runtherd has over Grots, it might be easier to accept this seemingly OP rule.
Think a grot would be tough in a wiry way with very little mass opposition when struck. Say you throw an ant up into the air and superman punch it - the ant would be rattled but scurry off. The existence of a grot on a battlefield would mean they are the dang toughest things around surviving a daily beating by the orks they serve. GROTS AIN'T SOFT - GROTS IS TOUGH
These arguments are nicely thought out. I like the fluffy reasons you have come up with on how they could be T5. It still doesn't sit right with me. A -1 to hit would represent that far better. Thanks for watching and commenting.
@sold37sad Yes, that's also a good way to look at it. I actually agree with Stevo and if i wrote the rules i wouldnt have done this but at the end of the day, there are plenty of rules I don't agree with that are bad for Orks, so at least now we have one that is actually good!
Annuva guddun Stevo, I never bothered with the Wortsnagga model ('coz frankly I think it sucks) - might have to see about bodging one up now though (assuming that he ain't tied to Snake Bites any more).
and grots being T5 somehow is why wound allocation is in the wrong place, it should occur before the wound roll... which would solve many of the issues that are causing problems in 10th
From a month ago: www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/KBvH5h3oY5QREpmG.pdf Page 15: Unit’s Toughness Characteristic: If an Attached unit contains models with different Toughness characteristics, for the purpose of determining that unit’s Toughness characteristic, use the highest Toughness characteristic amongst that unit’s Bodyguard models. If a non-Attached unit contains models with different Toughness characteristics, for the purpose of determining that unit’s Toughness characteristic, use the highest Toughness characteristic amongst all of that unit’s models. In either case, When resolving attacks against such a unit, determine that unit’s Toughness characteristic when it is selected as a target. You could look at it in an abstract sense - the massed gretchin are swarming about all over, and are more difficult to effectively land a quality blow on? Either way, it seems pretty odd for them to say this as well as having a rule directly on the card stating the T2 for runt herds is in shooting specifically.
I really like how you list your source to make your point. Good job. It's a really strange rule. I like how people are trying to find fluff reasons of how this could work. That shows It's not all about opting for best rule regardless of if it makes sense. But I think if people are needing to do this to explain it away, then it kind of shows how the rule just doesn't quite work. I will be very suprised if it still exists after an faq or once the Codex launches.
I play the toughness like that: if they are in melee, they have toughness 5 but only when i save with the runtherd! So when he's down, it's back to toughness 2
Well we are going to have to disagree on that one. There are many errors in all of GWs rules and datacards. And these are no exception. In time they will not be T5 in combat, because even if it is intended that way, it is absurd, unfluffy and completely ludicrous. GW will realise that.
Love da little green Gitz with Zodgrod, as you know 😉 There is no way they could be battle line with the current stats (120 of the little Gitz with 12 Runtherds and Zodgrod would be pretty damn cool though 😳)
Gretchins are still the best for me, but what they did to the runtherd is absolutely bonker to me, he should have its own data card like Cybernetica Datasmith.
I love thee little gitz. Not a fan of GW rules (don't keep up with FAQ on the latest FAQ etc) but objective control 2 per gretchin and stealing CPs is awesome :) Excatly waht one want to see. Snekay gitz braving objetvives and stelaing bits
Think a grot would be tough in a wiry way with very little mass opposition when struck. Say you throw an ant up into the air and superman punch it - the ant would be rattled but scurry off. The existence of a grot on a battlefield would mean they are the dang toughest things around surviving a daily beating by the orks they serve. GROTS AIN'T SOFT - GROTS IS TOUGH
It's just a bloody shame that Grots have one of the worst sculpts to date! Nice rundown. I'm actually thinking If keyworded for Grots not just orks putting a weirdboy and stealing the opponents home objective with 20. Painboys are amazing also for a meat shield.
@@DrunkenDeer Some of them are really nice... but those holding pistols with both hands are really weird... Also lots of grot models scattered everywhere (Mek Gunz, buggies, nobz, ...)
@@6Stevo I actually have about 40 old metal Grots from 2nd ed that I paint up when I get the chance and they are so much better than the plastics. In fact the original poses were in metal and they clearly tried to transfer them onto plastic resulting in those bad sculpts as the old ones have proper hands and noses.
Well you can run a Grot army as battleline units aren't compulsory. It just means you can only have a maximum of 3 Grot units. Fill out the rest of the army with Killa Kanz, Grot Tanks, Mek Gunz etc.
yes you got whotch out fore the littl guys thay get in places you never thoght you had espshaly with a shock atack gun see the nest vid ho when i plaed WHFB the sworms did thare job and held up units and some time tack out a knight or two be fore being swished and that what the runts do oe enny smail units so big gun can get tharec turn
The grots are not T5 in melee - the runt herder is T5 in melee. If the runt herders are killed (because you allocated wounds to them by using their saves) then the unit toughness goes to T2 in melee. If enough wounds come through to wound Zogrod when he is leading the unit, when the runtherders are all dead, then he counts as T2. Swings and roundabouts. I will be playing the rules correctly.
Yes if Zodgrod leads them, they still have Runtherds as he comes as part of the unit. Fantastic to see Legends back. I am planning to cover this at some point soon.
they NEED to be Battleline or we need at least a Grot detachment where they are. 3 Units of Grots is too little for many purposes. The Runtherd rule uncertainty is just GWs incompetence and idiocy, there is a rule that actively states, that non-attached mixed toughness units do use the highest toughness, so the runtherd rule is supposed to nullify that rule, but it is just so badly worded...
@@6Stevo yeah that surely was what they intended the rule people just SUCK at their job. I recon it's because there is no proper quality control and management is probably whipping them to churn out one release after another, but still. The amount of outright errors and unclear wording in this edition was pathetic. Anyone involved should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves what they are doing with their lifes! XD
Also do we even need codexes? These data cards are great. We're going to stick with these for the whole edition, no GW power creep, rules bloat, and rip off books. 8th edition was way better with the indexes, fool me once GW!
‘ERE WE GO, GROTS!!!!
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaagghh!!
Another great video, Bossman 💚 Please keep up with these short format unit reviews. They're a really useful, concise summary.
Also, THANK YOU for being the voice of reason: those guys trying to run Grots as Toughness 5 are 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ (and they're going to be the first ones moaning when the inevitable nerf comes.... May as well run them as T2 from the beginning and enjoy the fluff factor).
Really glad you like them. Many more to come. 😊
Yes, I've been thinking lately how nobody is doing this for Orks, so glad to see you back with really helpful content
It's the reason I started this channel in the first place and it's the reason I have restarted it now.
There has been a real lack of good Orky content for a while now.
Some great channels out there for sure, but not enough.
Ya gonna need to get Zodgrod paints up to join up with Bob and the Gang.
Tempting. I really like the miniature too.
Every Orks army needs some grotz to kick around. It’s just right proper.
Too right! 🥾
Dez Vidz iz comin fasta din a Speed Freakz mad-dreamz! Keep em commin!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Waaaaaaagghh!!
I've been wrestling with the question about Grot toughness in melee too. It does sound a bit mad but when you read the rules, it does read that they should have the runtherd toughness in melee but grot toughness for ranged. Maybe if we consider toughness to not represent how tough a Grot is but rather how tough it is to actually hit one properly and also consider what psychological impact a runtherd has over Grots, it might be easier to accept this seemingly OP rule.
I saw someone describe it as the runthurd protecting the grots In Melee, I like the flavour of that
Think a grot would be tough in a wiry way with very little mass opposition when struck. Say you throw an ant up into the air and superman punch it - the ant would be rattled but scurry off. The existence of a grot on a battlefield would mean they are the dang toughest things around surviving a daily beating by the orks they serve. GROTS AIN'T SOFT - GROTS IS TOUGH
These arguments are nicely thought out.
I like the fluffy reasons you have come up with on how they could be T5.
It still doesn't sit right with me.
A -1 to hit would represent that far better.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
@sold37sad Yes, that's also a good way to look at it. I actually agree with Stevo and if i wrote the rules i wouldnt have done this but at the end of the day, there are plenty of rules I don't agree with that are bad for Orks, so at least now we have one that is actually good!
@6Stevo Looks like you was right to stick to your guns as the latest update agrees m8
The most no brainer unit in the army. I'll always bring as much as i can
They are an auto include for sure.
Annuva guddun Stevo, I never bothered with the Wortsnagga model ('coz frankly I think it sucks) - might have to see about bodging one up now though (assuming that he ain't tied to Snake Bites any more).
I don't think he will be bud. The new detatchments are not going to be clan based, so those kind of restrictions are gone.
and grots being T5 somehow is why wound allocation is in the wrong place, it should occur before the wound roll... which would solve many of the issues that are causing problems in 10th
I think many of these issues can be avoided by players simply not being beardy and playing the rules as intended.
Thank you , Stevo .
🐺 Loupis Canis .
Thank you too
From a month ago:
www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/KBvH5h3oY5QREpmG.pdf
Page 15:
Unit’s Toughness Characteristic: If an Attached unit contains models with different Toughness characteristics, for the purpose of determining that unit’s Toughness characteristic, use the highest Toughness characteristic amongst that unit’s Bodyguard models. If a non-Attached unit contains models with different Toughness characteristics, for the purpose of determining that unit’s Toughness characteristic, use the highest Toughness characteristic amongst all of that unit’s models. In either case, When resolving attacks against such a unit, determine that unit’s Toughness characteristic when it is selected as a target.
You could look at it in an abstract sense - the massed gretchin are swarming about all over, and are more difficult to effectively land a quality blow on? Either way, it seems pretty odd for them to say this as well as having a rule directly on the card stating the T2 for runt herds is in shooting specifically.
I really like how you list your source to make your point. Good job.
It's a really strange rule. I like how people are trying to find fluff reasons of how this could work. That shows It's not all about opting for best rule regardless of if it makes sense.
But I think if people are needing to do this to explain it away, then it kind of shows how the rule just doesn't quite work.
I will be very suprised if it still exists after an faq or once the Codex launches.
With grots being this good Dim must be at least tempted to get back in
You know, I think he is! 🤔
@@6Stevo Not after he looked at the rules for Big Gunz!
😅 yeah they kinda screwed them on the BS6+. A pretty obvious blunder me thinks.
@@6Stevo Nothing sums up the last 10 years of GW more than that tbh
Gretchins to is a big IF I need to see what I can drop and what I can not drop still could take 1 to see if it work
They are well worth taking. A single 45 point unit could net you several cp during a game. That's good value for points right there!
I could drop 1 boyz units and take 90 point's plus 1 weird boy that would make it two weird boy then
I play the toughness like that: if they are in melee, they have toughness 5 but only when i save with the runtherd! So when he's down, it's back to toughness 2
That makes a bit more sense. He has to die first surely?
Grots are 100% toughness 5 in melee, as written and as intended.
They would not have a rule that specifies shooting otherwise.
Well we are going to have to disagree on that one.
There are many errors in all of GWs rules and datacards. And these are no exception.
In time they will not be T5 in combat, because even if it is intended that way, it is absurd, unfluffy and completely ludicrous.
GW will realise that.
UPDATE: Grots are T2 in melee as (now) written and as (always) intended.
Love da little green Gitz with Zodgrod, as you know 😉 There is no way they could be battle line with the current stats (120 of the little Gitz with 12 Runtherds and Zodgrod would be pretty damn cool though 😳)
I mean Zodgrod can only buff 1 unit of them. But yeah it would be nasty! And now we have red gobo too!
Gretchins are still the best for me, but what they did to the runtherd is absolutely bonker to me, he should have its own data card like Cybernetica Datasmith.
I'm just glad he is not as useless as he was in 8th and 9th edition.
Anyone else got 6 runt herds to build and paint up?
🤣 Yes I think alot of people do!
I love thee little gitz. Not a fan of GW rules (don't keep up with FAQ on the latest FAQ etc) but objective control 2 per gretchin and stealing CPs is awesome :)
Excatly waht one want to see. Snekay gitz braving objetvives and stelaing bits
100% agree
Kinda hilarious that a unit of 22 and zodgrod would wound a knight or t14 stompa on 5
I imagine that a tin of them scurrying around wound find some chink in the armour and start pulling wires and planting explosive etc.
Errata changed it so ALL attacks against gretchin are Toughness 2, not until all gretchin are gone does the Runtherd have toughness 5.
Yes I know. Beautiful news! 😊
Think a grot would be tough in a wiry way with very little mass opposition when struck. Say you throw an ant up into the air and superman punch it - the ant would be rattled but scurry off. The existence of a grot on a battlefield would mean they are the dang toughest things around surviving a daily beating by the orks they serve. GROTS AIN'T SOFT - GROTS IS TOUGH
Hmmn 🤔 interesting...
Totally agree with what you say, T5 for weedy grots - no way
Yeah it's ridiculous and not sportsmanlike.
It's just a bloody shame that Grots have one of the worst sculpts to date!
Nice rundown. I'm actually thinking If keyworded for Grots not just orks putting a weirdboy and stealing the opponents home objective with 20. Painboys are amazing also for a meat shield.
I actually really like the Grot miniatures!
@@6Stevo the guns are moulded into their faces bro.
@@DrunkenDeer Some of them are really nice... but those holding pistols with both hands are really weird... Also lots of grot models scattered everywhere (Mek Gunz, buggies, nobz, ...)
They are a mixed bag. A couple of dodgy ones. But also some really nice ones. There are some great 3rd party Grots out there.
@@6Stevo I actually have about 40 old metal Grots from 2nd ed that I paint up when I get the chance and they are so much better than the plastics. In fact the original poses were in metal and they clearly tried to transfer them onto plastic resulting in those bad sculpts as the old ones have proper hands and noses.
So, no Grot armies?! 😢
If Zodgrod is commanding up to twenty Supa Grots, would they also be accompanied by up to two Runtherds?
Well you can run a Grot army as battleline units aren't compulsory.
It just means you can only have a maximum of 3 Grot units.
Fill out the rest of the army with Killa Kanz, Grot Tanks, Mek Gunz etc.
@@6Stevo My faith in Gork and Mork has been restored!💚☠️💚
yes you got whotch out fore the littl guys thay get in places you never thoght you had espshaly with a shock atack gun see the nest vid ho when i plaed WHFB the sworms did thare job and held up units and some time tack out a knight or two be fore being swished and that what the runts do oe enny smail units so big gun can get tharec turn
Never underestimate the humble Grot!
The grots are not T5 in melee - the runt herder is T5 in melee.
If the runt herders are killed (because you allocated wounds to them by using their saves) then the unit toughness goes to T2 in melee.
If enough wounds come through to wound Zogrod when he is leading the unit, when the runtherders are all dead, then he counts as T2.
Swings and roundabouts. I will be playing the rules correctly.
Also Legends dropped yesterday with the red gobbo as a grot leader so worth covering.
Yes if Zodgrod leads them, they still have Runtherds as he comes as part of the unit.
Fantastic to see Legends back. I am planning to cover this at some point soon.
they NEED to be Battleline or we need at least a Grot detachment where they are. 3 Units of Grots is too little for many purposes. The Runtherd rule uncertainty is just GWs incompetence and idiocy, there is a rule that actively states, that non-attached mixed toughness units do use the highest toughness, so the runtherd rule is supposed to nullify that rule, but it is just so badly worded...
It's now been fixed in the errata/faq and confims that the unit is always T2 until all the Grots are dead.
@@6Stevo yeah that surely was what they intended the rule people just SUCK at their job. I recon it's because there is no proper quality control and management is probably whipping them to churn out one release after another, but still. The amount of outright errors and unclear wording in this edition was pathetic. Anyone involved should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves what they are doing with their lifes! XD
Also do we even need codexes? These data cards are great. We're going to stick with these for the whole edition, no GW power creep, rules bloat, and rip off books. 8th edition was way better with the indexes, fool me once GW!
I'm with you. We will get Codexes, but hopefully they will be in the same form as these Indexes.
Waiting to see the FAQ If they change the toughness wording, I assume they will.
Pretty sure they will.