This makes so much sense, option A) install over head power on a complete railway line at a massive cost! Option B) install over head power at the stations and where power is easily available only then run trains on batteries between them. And for city trains just charge at stations and at night. My local diesel line needs this badly ! Thanks so much Robert. Be v interesting to know how much regen they have managed ? This will also save all that brake wear dust that the DMail like to go on about!
6 років тому+6
TBH, If you plan a national railroad and are not willing to upfront the cost of powerlines... to me using batteries seems a bit of waste of resource, since power lines will be amortized.
Jack García Kinda agree, but that line and new transformers, etc. will require inspection, which might be quite expensive. So if this allows them to only install overhead lines on about half/one third of the line, it could allow them to ditch the diesel engines, while spending less on infrastructure. I think that is the big sales pitch here
+Jack Powerlines aren't just a one-time investment (quite a big one btw.). They need service continuously as well. I can't tell if they would be cheaper or not in the long run, but batteries have other advantages es well. A downed power line means a track has to be closed until someone got out there to fix it. If there's an issue with a battery, get that carriage into the depot, the rest of the network doesn't care.
+Daniel Battery degradation is almost a non issue as can be seen with Teslas that have gone over 300 000km and still have over 90% of the initial capacity left. And the battery chemistry used in these trains is even more stable. Hyrogen maybe will be used in some fringe cases, but is otherwise a dead end. The whole cycle (generation, transport, storage, fueling and conversion back to electricity) is so much less efficient than batteries that it can never compete (this is a limit imposed by physics not technology). There's also absolutely no infrastructure for widespread hydrogen use, and especially non for generation of hydrogen from electricity. 95% of hydrogen in use today is generated from natural gas which has the same CO2 output as burning that same amount of gas. Fuel cells (I hope you are thinking about those, because burning hydrogen in an ICE would be beyond stupid) are also quite fussy about how they are treated and will degrade. Look up fuel cell poisoning. If your hydrogen isn't pure your cells will degrade quite quickly. They are especially susceptible to CO (carbon monoxide), which is always present as a residue from generating hydrogen from natural gas.
It would make sense for a train to be electric for many reasons. Weight does not matter since they are already extremely heavy, space is not an issue for storing batteries, the exact travel distance is known before travel, trains experiences lots of down time for charging, an extra battery car could be added very easily or changed out for a quick recharge!
what I mean is, electric lines can be placed at the places where train spend a lot of energy for acceleration,- few kilometers after the stops, and sure they can also charge during the stops at stations
Tonight there was evening news article about the govt wanting to unwind some of the Beeching rail closures. Perhaps small electric trains on branch lines could be a perfect fit.
They actually ran a battery powered train on the route from Aberdeen to Ballater back in 1958. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU It didn't save the line from Beeching.
If you watch "Japan railway Journal" on nhk world, you would see that Japan already has battery powered trains in service on some lines, they have short sections of overhead wire at the ends which both charge and propelled the trains over a short section and the batteries do the job of propulsion over the greater part of the lines length, they also have hybrid trains in service.
You can blame the Marshall Plan for all that. All our former enemies have all the good stuff and we have shit. It's not fair. They should have garbage too.
Very interesting. Back until 1992 there was a battery powered between Maastricht here in the south east of the Netherlands and Aachen just across the border in Germany. Those batteries were much bigger and less efficient than the modern ones. But it is good to see that battery power technics are coming up again, also in trains. We must get rid of the diesels...
The train from London to Chester is a diesel powered tilting Pendolino. It runs under electric wires (180 miles) all but the last 20 miles, which is unelectrified track from Crewe to Chester. It runs for 180 miles under electric wires and does not use them - madness of course. The train burns this filthy fuel which weighs tons, so heavy to drag along the track. They could have a hybrid electric/diesel train, but it would be dragging heavy diesel fuel and engine & transmission most of the way. The last 20 miles is expensive to electrify as the bridges are too low for overhead wires. Overhead wires could be at Chester station to give the train a zap when pulling off from stop and recharge the batteries. *This is the ideal scenario for a hybrid battery/wires electric train.* HS2 to reach Crewe. Have a HS2 loco be a hybrid battery/wires and then Chester has a direct HS2 link. All so simple.
John Burns Pendolinos are electric multiple units powered by pantographs, unless you mean a loco-hauled Pendolino...? The (Super) Voyagers are the diesel-electric multiple units
I love this idea. The village where I grew up all but lost its service due to the line being electrified to the nearest town. Local industry (an oil refinery) would not allow the line through their site to be electrified in case of arcing. It wasn't feasible to run a diesel service down the line to us which would only be busy at rush hour. Now a 10 minute train ride is a 30 minute bus ride. Trains such as these would have solved the problem.
Very appreciating concept. We developed the device one step above your concept. The trian will continually running on battery with charge automatically on free energy.
Having a third rail or overhead wires at stations and the first few hundred meters leaving the station would so that the train does most if its acceleration while connected would do wonders for the range without much infrastructure costs on old tracks.
The plan is for something similar to this at some stations. Have approximately 50-100m of track energized by stationary battery storage to rapidly charge the unit while its stopped at a station.
Battery trains are by no means new, the 43 mile long Aberdeen to Braemar branch in Scotland using an experimental battery electric 2 car multiple unit which ran from 1958 until 1966 when the line was closed. The lead acid batteries weighed 8 tons under each coach so the frames needed a lot of strengthening. The unit was used for departmental use at the Derby Railway Technical Centre until 1984, and is presently being restored on the Royal Deeside Railway in Scotland.
Here in Dublin where I'm from back in that era we had some battery powered multi units. Nicknamed drum trains and operated in and around south Dublin. But they didn't really take off as the main impractical little with them was they took too long to charge vs the always ready to go AEC built DMUs aslo used at the time.
It's a fantastic idea and a vindication of the quality design of the D78 stock. I I'm from West London and I remember these well. This concept could also be applied to tube size stock and employed on the Isle of Wight line. That would remove the need for the 3rd rail on that line.
What is really great about your show is that you find all those fantastic little initiatives like this or those small companies converting old conventional cars and many more!
The third rail system on Southern & South Eastern trains means leaves, snow, frost, bunny rabbits, etc all cause problems with power pickup. A hybrid would be a brilliant solution. Regen slowing for each station (saves on brakes), use the battery to reduce current draw when accelerating away from station, charge the battery a bit when coasting & continue on when you come up on some dead leaves (or bunnies). If the train had an independent range of 10 miles or so, most trains could get to a station in a power cut, or to the next powered section of track. You could also kill the live rail in stations, making accidents less likely. Bonza.
Daniel Pickering , yes, that works too 😊 I think they mentioned in the video that installing those wires is quite expensive, I'm not sure, I'm not an expert 😊 I think it would be nice to have the battery option too 😊
Yes, Daniel. It's a better solution, but also a more costly one. It's expensive to build and maintain overhead wires. So it needs a large investment to start with. Battery powered trains can go onto those tracks instantly and would enable to make a line run fully electric without needing to electrify a track first. That could be an option later. Or perhaps only parts, so that it can recharge. These battery powered trains will probably cost not much more than a diesel train.
Daniel Pickering - Network Rail tried, and so far have largely failed, to electrify more of Britain's railways - such as the Great Western main line. Billions of pounds have been wasted, the project is years late, and little has been delivered. Battery-electric trains could mean that more lines could be electrified without the enormous cost of overhead wires, and without the noise and pollution of diesels!
Just so you don't think UK's trains and rubbish. This is an old "subway" train from the 1970s that has been partly modified and tested before it get's fully converted into a proper train.
Fantastic - probably now my favourite Fully Charged episode! I love the Vivarail concept of over hauling and modernising old rolling stock to give lower cost options for branch lines and smaller commuter routes.
Merseytravel have been punting for the slow diesel Wrexham to Bidston, Birkenhead line (Borderlands Line) to be a part of Merseyrail and run into the electrified 3rd rail underground sections in Birkenhead and Liverpool. This could also run onto Liverpool South Parkway south of the city centre on the Merseyrail Northern Line by recommissioning the 300 yards of the 1890s tunnel from Liverpool James St to Central. The 27 miles long Borderlands Line is slow diesel with electrification an expensive item for an hourly service - although once modernised the frequencies will increase as usage increases. Battery trains are being assessed for this line, which appears ideal for this technology. Trains can use a 3rd rail pickup on the electrified underground sections from Bidston into Liverpool and simultaneously recharging the on-board batteries/supercapacitors. The odd station on the unelectrified section could have a 3rd rail to give an acceleration boost preserving the battery charge and also charge batteries/supercapacitors while at the station. The Japanese have battery trains in service right now. The new light Stadler Merseyrail fleet is capable of being converted to battery power & 3rd rail and overhead wires & 3rd rail. It is about time the Borderlands Line got some attention with the two new stations planned at Birkenhead built and a proper interchange with the North Wales Coast Line at Shotton.
USSR experimented with battery powered trains in the 70's. They modified standard ЭР2 into ЭР2А6 in 1972. Though, those were 40 tons of lead-acid batteries with total capacity of 806 kAh. Tests were conducted between 1973 and 1975. Batteries were charged from overhead wires (I believe they tested them on Riga-Sigulda branch, therefore 2/3 where 2/3 of a track is not electrified to this day). Was later decommissioned due to complications with repairs and certain operational difficulties.
Personally my heart will always be with steam trains (I grew up with Thomas the tank engine) but this seems like a very good step forward. Plus I'm jealous Robert I have always wanted to drive a train!!
Good stuff. The part of Australia I grew up in still isn't electrified because there is a heritage listed tunnel which is too low for overhead wires - and the economics don't stack up to drill a new tunnel. If the train could run on overhead power and then flick to battery through the tunnel it'd be sorted. Then of course you could do partial electrification and partial battery runs the rest of the way - whatever makes sense.
The worst with diesel trains in the UK is standing on a enclosed platform below a non smoking sign while trying not to breath to heavily. Birmingham New St. is particularly bad when it comes to standing in diesel exhaust.
"Enclosed railway stations hosting diesel trains pose a risk to passengers and workers as exhaust emissions reduce air quality, according to an independent study by the University of Cambridge, University of Minnesota and Minnesota State University Mankato, published in September 2015 in the journal Environmental Research Letters. The researchers evaluated air quality in London Paddington train station over a period of five days and each time found it to be in breach of European limits regarding nitrogen dioxide (NO2) for outdoor air quality. Further comparisons sampling particulate matter (PM2.5), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and NO2 concentrations also found these to be much higher than on the busy Marylebone roadside located nearby." from www.railway-technology.com/features/featurethe-big-stink-how-much-do-trains-really-emit-4807131/
having 3rd rail or overhead power in stations only, to recharge the batteries, would reduce the need and cost of full electrification but enable a diesel free passenger train network. Really love the idea of battery trains and the fact they are repurposed stock too.
If you could top up the power at stations, such as an inductive charge pad, that could give extra range and require less batteries to run. It would be particularly useful in areas without full electrification and may be a cheaper alternative.
Bordpie True, but a pantograph and overhead line might be much cheaper and make more sense. They could have overhead sections just at the stations, would indeed lead to huge savings
Inductive charging will always be way inferior to a direct connection, be it for mobile devices, cars, trains or whatever other application might come up. It's horribly inefficient compared to a wire (quite important at these power levels) and technically much more complicated (so more likely to not work and need service). For trains especially it's way easier to install overhead wires or a third rail at stations to charge.
I only mentioned inductive charging as an example and I was mostly thinking about safety at the time, it could be any of the above methods. I would have thought inductive chargers would be the least maintenance intensive since there's no overhead structure or contacts exposed to the elements that need to be inspected from time to time, and would be the cheapest to retro-fit into existing stations. It isn't too inefficient depending on how you do it and it's basically a temporary transformer so could quite easily cope with high power levels; perhaps it could run directly off mains AC. Anyway, my main point was any type of charger at a station combined with batteries could make a cheaper alternative to full electrification.
It might be a false dawn, with the question boiling down to how you crunch the numbers. If the cost of electrifying a line can be justified, the availability of cheaper rolling stock pretty much justifies introducing or keeping a passenger service. If it can't, there might not necessarily be a case for buying more expensive and more limited battery trains. I'll be watching how this technology develops with a lot of interest.
It would be awesome to have this technology come to South and West Wales after the government reneged on its promise to electrify the railway beyond Cardiff...cracking video Robert
I can see why you'd choose LiFePO4 for a train. Weight isn't a huge issue and the density isn't bad (220Wh/l, LiOn can get up to around 3x this but 220 is decent nonetheless) and it's an easier to manage, safe chemistry.
What a brilliant episode. (1) the subject matter was brilliant (2) and the production / filmography was amazing - was like watching a normal broadcast quality program. Very high praise for all involved.
I really like David Edward Holden's background music throughout the video :) Sounds very uncommon and reminiscent of a 1970/80's BBC detective TV series. That's what came to mind when I heard it. Was it "Countryside"?
You should so make a trip to Byron Bay NSW Australia, Where they have a Vintage 1949 built 600 Class rail car (Ex Diesel multiple unit 2 car train). It’s so far the worlds only Solar Powered Train with Solar fitted to the roof of the train as well as in built batteries, The main station also has solar and battery storage so the train runs purely off Solar battery power. So you get the old school 40’s style and charm with the 21st century technology, It’s in use everyday doing a timetabled run as a tourist style railway.
A new life for rolling stock which has proven to be reliable over decades - instead throwing it away. Nice trend, which hopefully will go round the world. The cities Bonn and Cologne (Germany) are overhauling their light railway trains from the seventies. It is more environmentally friendly and cheaper (one third) then buying new trains.
The German Federal Railways had good experience with battery powered trains, even when those were 1950's technology. The ETA 150 (later Br 515) was a single unit which could pull a trailer. Those were designed for branch lines were electrification would be too costly in conjunction with the amount of passengers expected, and diesel trains were regarded too noisy for some of those lines, 232 ETA and 216 driving trailers were built from 1955, they served untill 1995. Besides that those trains were more economical as well to operate. 2 motors of 150Kw each powered the power unit, fed by a 7 ton lead-acid battery, the battery was charged overnight on shore power in the depot. When fully charged a power car-trailer train weighing 105 ton in total could travel 300km with a top speed of 100km/h. I remember traveling in these as they ran across the border between Aachen in Germany and Maastricht in the Netherlands, and it was a bit strange to only hear the whine of motors without catenary poles flashing past the windows. So when those already were a success, why should't they with modern battery technology? The range could be more than 800 miles because energy density of the batteries used on the test train is 4.5 times as high as for a lead-acid battery of the same weight.
It's fascinating to see, that nothing can be too old to be considered to be new... In 1954, Deutsche Bundesbahn started acquiring 232 units (216 of them dual units) of Class 515 battery powered electric commuter trains. These trains were in reliable service until 1995 when they were replaced by "much more modern" Diesel units. This is a report of SWR TV from 1999 showing Class 515 (nicknamed "Akkublitz", btw. "Blitz" does not mean anything but lightning, alluding to the - compared to steam engines - lightnig-fast fast acceleration of these units) from first purchase until scrapping. Worth to have a look at even if you don't understand a word ... Have fun! ua-cam.com/video/11wBZHpr9vQ/v-deo.html
the battery powered version is being looked at as a replacement for the now life expired tube stock used on the Isle of Wight, this type of unit is ideal for low density branch lines where recharging can be done either overnight or at terminus stations of course they have re generative braking which uses the brakes to generate electricity so that will help to extend the battery life on lines such as this sort of line i can see the sence in using batty power, plus, on lines where there is either overhead, or third rail, and an non electrified section, rather than having to have two types of traction, you can use one
Ireland developed it's own battery train back in the 1930s, and operated it for 17 years. Wasn't bad it's time, but it wouldn't have been fit for long distances.
Wonderful that these d stock trains are getting a new life and that viva rail are innovating but they only exist because the government has critically destroyed the rail system, and as nice as these trains are, the north deserves better than 30 year old trains. This will just lead to the government saying "great, not our problem anymore"
Hi Jim you mean Dr Richard Beeching formerly of ICI from in by the then Conservative government's Transport Secretary of State Ernest Marples. The Resharping Report of British Railways was then carried through by the Labour government of Harold Wilson. Lines closed as late as 1974. So BOTH major parties caused the railway network to reduce.
The psychopath created cycle paths. Several old routes being seriously looked at in the South East. The Brighton to London lines need "air traffic control" at busy times with one train every 60 seconds in places. Sadly, it does impact idyllic long distance foot/cycle paths & a couple of lovely steam railways. Let's hope they have the cash & noddle to make them all co-exist.
I think this train should keep its original motor sounds and not a new one as the whine noise on the new motors will annoy people but it's very cool that these will be running on national rail soon but apart from the new motors being a bit annoying it's cool what there doing so well done to vivarail
Grayling the Transport Minister shelved many electrification projects and bought bi-modal trains - they can run on electrified track and on diesel on unelectrified track. The Austrian railways and NZ have both ordered electric battery hybrid trains to be operational in 2019. The Austrian project is big. Japan has been using electric battery hybrid trains for about 4-5 years. Electric battery hybrid is the future, *not burning filthy diesel fuel.* The great thing about battery trains is that when the battery pack needs replacing a newer cheaper pack with about x3 or x4 the range would be fitted as advances are introduced. Also, the used batteries can be used for electricity grid battery storage used for peak times. There is still a lot of use left in vehicle batteries. Germany is using used Smart Car batteries in a grid storage battery bank. A grid storage battery bank has been commissioned in Barrow - using new batteries. This saves building dams at the tops of mountains and having expensive peak time power stations on stand by. Having electrified track at stations and where track runs up hills, makes matters better in preserving the energy in the battery, charging the battery, assisting loads, and acceleration from stations. And of course kinetic braking regeneration using supercapacitors. All obvious, except to those in charge. But Grayling bought a whole raft of electric diesel hybrid, so we all be driving around in EVs by the time they get rid of these fitly toxic spewing trains.
Battery/electric hybrid trains are successful in Japan. The Mayflower line 3 years ago had a revenue trial. All appeared successful. The great thing about batteries is the successful R&D in new battery technology. Toyota are to make `glass` batteries which can charge up very quickly - ideal for commuter runs in the UK. These trains can transform the likes of Merseyrail - the line does not reach the Helsby junction because of sparks while running past Stanlow oil refinery. Charging can be at stations as the train halts. These glass batteries hold at least x 3 the charge. By fitting in a new battery set a train is transformed in the future. Look up a man named Goodenough, who invented the Lith-Ion battery, he has developed the glass battery - solid state. The future is battery in trains, cars and even coastal ship to start with. Cruise liners would be ideal for masses of battery banks dropping in at a port per day. Dockside charging. Modern batteries will stabilise the grid, look up the home Tesla Powerwall. Couple the Powerwall to a roof solar array, and a million of these mean we need not build any more power stations. A grid battery bank is being built at Barrow for peak usage. The Germans have a grid battery bank using used Smart Car EV batteries. The future is battery.
That really is a nice refurb. I hope this works out and they get to revitalise some neglected routes. Especially with the recent announcement about looking into reopening closed lines.
i imagine these electric locomotives now as if they shared the same features a stea engine would have. a Battery storage tender-like car attached to it big wheels if possible with rods air-whistles that gives charm very nice.
Fascinating video and I like the concept of refurbishing existing rolling stock that is only about ten years old. According to Vivarail's news release, they can get about 80 miles range out of the batteries before a recharge which is more than I had anticipated.
Department for transport say the major cost in electrifying rail lines is raising the bridges to get wires under and widening tunnels. Trains running on battery only, means these choke points are easily overcome. All looks good, go electric/battery. *But!* There was a battery train trial three years ago in 2015. The result of the trial was that Network Rail said the technology was not there yet, being too expensive and limited range. The equipment used on the trial is now being used by Vivarail. It has a top speed of 60mph and a range of 40 miles on an 8 minute minute charge and 50 miles on a 10 minute max charge. The range is enough for one way on an average branch. The the size and weight of a 4-car class 379 compared to a smaller and lighter 2-car class 230 Vivarail means they are viable. This went over the heads of Network Rail. The same battery set gives a greater range to the class 230 Vivarail. So, we have seen no battery trains, while other countries are starting to use battery trains and Vivarail are making them. Then Network Rail run out and buy electric/diesel bi-modal trains that pour out filth. :(
billyboi57 funnily I've never heard of that somehow. I know about two "export only" EMD G12's that ended up in Canada due to an order from a shortline that didn't exist since the 60's, yet something like that I've never heard of...
Great idea, great video! In a pinch it could send electricity back to the grid as a temporary power source in an emergency outage situation. Love the faces the engineer was making while they were talking behind him in the beginning! lol! " bloody 'ell, can't they natter on in the coach section? I'm busy here!" Lmao
Seeing you in train, I remembered your Documentary on Indian Railways in the 'Worlds Busiest Railway 2015'......Keep the good work....Loving your contents from India.
I've been thinking that this would solve many problems in places like Melbourne Australia where I live. We have a terrible rail system which is totally cbd central driven and no link lines between each arm. This means that what would be 10 to 15 mins between suburbs, turns into 2 hours easily. The bus system is also useless which is another story. This would mean that they could create lines with no need for over heads between stations and have a short section of over head to boost acceleration and increase battery charge time seems most of the charge would be used getting the train moving, which would also save weight in the battery pack. I like it a lot
The Dept for Transport slowed electrification as it looked as if fuel cell trains would be on the market. One was operational in China. Now it is batteries that slow up electrification. But batteries are viable and feasible *now.*
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #1 НАЧАЛО ПУТЕШЕСТВИЯ [Новый сезон] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/380Q7gLWGvk/mqdefault.jpg)
Isn't Alice Gillman a passionate and engaging person! Top job done for Vivarail
She looks quite happy and she is pretty
I like positive, happy, knowledgeable, informative, intelligent people like Alice.
Peter Brazier Very enthusiastic and I loved it when she corrected Robert on the things about the motors.
Its a bliss
Who the f**k is Alice?
Watch the video! ;-)
ua-cam.com/video/Z6qnRS36EgE/v-deo.html
This makes so much sense, option A) install over head power on a complete railway line at a massive cost! Option B) install over head power at the stations and where power is easily available only then run trains on batteries between them. And for city trains just charge at stations and at night. My local diesel line needs this badly ! Thanks so much Robert. Be v interesting to know how much regen they have managed ? This will also save all that brake wear dust that the DMail like to go on about!
TBH, If you plan a national railroad and are not willing to upfront the cost of powerlines... to me using batteries seems a bit of waste of resource, since power lines will be amortized.
Jack García Kinda agree, but that line and new transformers, etc. will require inspection, which might be quite expensive. So if this allows them to only install overhead lines on about half/one third of the line, it could allow them to ditch the diesel engines, while spending less on infrastructure. I think that is the big sales pitch here
+Jack
Powerlines aren't just a one-time investment (quite a big one btw.). They need service continuously as well. I can't tell if they would be cheaper or not in the long run, but batteries have other advantages es well. A downed power line means a track has to be closed until someone got out there to fix it. If there's an issue with a battery, get that carriage into the depot, the rest of the network doesn't care.
+Daniel
Battery degradation is almost a non issue as can be seen with Teslas that have gone over 300 000km and still have over 90% of the initial capacity left. And the battery chemistry used in these trains is even more stable.
Hyrogen maybe will be used in some fringe cases, but is otherwise a dead end. The whole cycle (generation, transport, storage, fueling and conversion back to electricity) is so much less efficient than batteries that it can never compete (this is a limit imposed by physics not technology). There's also absolutely no infrastructure for widespread hydrogen use, and especially non for generation of hydrogen from electricity. 95% of hydrogen in use today is generated from natural gas which has the same CO2 output as burning that same amount of gas.
Fuel cells (I hope you are thinking about those, because burning hydrogen in an ICE would be beyond stupid) are also quite fussy about how they are treated and will degrade. Look up fuel cell poisoning. If your hydrogen isn't pure your cells will degrade quite quickly. They are especially susceptible to CO (carbon monoxide), which is always present as a residue from generating hydrogen from natural gas.
Saving could be very high. Lot of small line dont have over head power lines but the diesel trains cost a lot to run and service.
It would make sense for a train to be electric for many reasons. Weight does not matter since they are already extremely heavy, space is not an issue for storing batteries, the exact travel distance is known before travel, trains experiences lots of down time for charging, an extra battery car could be added very easily or changed out for a quick recharge!
one more, charging infrastructure partially exists or can be easily implemented as overhead electric lines
jondanimal yep!
what I mean is, electric lines can be placed at the places where train spend a lot of energy for acceleration,- few kilometers after the stops, and sure they can also charge during the stops at stations
yip yip yip this is all a great idea..
or use overhead wires….
What a delightful sales lady.
Cloxxki delightfully energetic.
It's finally happened. We found someone even more energetic than Robert.
Actually she would be pretty good as a presenter on Fully Charged.
Absolutely - someone enthused, passionate, and informed about their product.
She's lovely isn't she?
Another example of how wearing Hi-Viz jackets gives you superpowers
It is nice to see an old D stock tube train being given another lease of live!
a very British episode :D
Tonight there was evening news article about the govt wanting to unwind some of the Beeching rail closures. Perhaps small electric trains on branch lines could be a perfect fit.
They actually ran a battery powered train on the route from Aberdeen to Ballater back in 1958.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU
It didn't save the line from Beeching.
We need it in Australia we could open more closed railway lines with this tech
Yes Robin agggrrreeeeee but like my old Beeching line they have built stuff all over it
If you watch "Japan railway Journal" on nhk world, you would see that Japan already has battery powered trains in service on some lines, they have short sections of overhead wire at the ends which both charge and propelled the trains over a short section and the batteries do the job of propulsion over the greater part of the lines length, they also have hybrid trains in service.
greggy weggy cool!
You can blame the Marshall Plan for all that. All our former enemies have all the good stuff and we have shit. It's not fair. They should have garbage too.
Intresting thanks!
lol
Many people don't realise that all freight trains are hybrid, diesel generator powering electric motors
Very interesting. Back until 1992 there was a battery powered between Maastricht here in the south east of the Netherlands and Aachen just across the border in Germany. Those batteries were much bigger and less efficient than the modern ones. But it is good to see that battery power technics are coming up again, also in trains. We must get rid of the diesels...
First class production.. Hats off to you chaps/ladies.
The train from London to Chester is a diesel powered tilting Pendolino. It runs under electric wires (180 miles) all but the last 20 miles, which is unelectrified track from Crewe to Chester. It runs for 180 miles under electric wires and does not use them - madness of course. The train burns this filthy fuel which weighs tons, so heavy to drag along the track. They could have a hybrid electric/diesel train, but it would be dragging heavy diesel fuel and engine & transmission most of the way. The last 20 miles is expensive to electrify as the bridges are too low for overhead wires. Overhead wires could be at Chester station to give the train a zap when pulling off from stop and recharge the batteries. *This is the ideal scenario for a hybrid battery/wires electric train.*
HS2 to reach Crewe. Have a HS2 loco be a hybrid battery/wires and then Chester has a direct HS2 link. All so simple.
John Burns Pendolinos are electric multiple units powered by pantographs, unless you mean a loco-hauled Pendolino...? The (Super) Voyagers are the diesel-electric multiple units
I love this idea. The village where I grew up all but lost its service due to the line being electrified to the nearest town. Local industry (an oil refinery) would not allow the line through their site to be electrified in case of arcing. It wasn't feasible to run a diesel service down the line to us which would only be busy at rush hour. Now a 10 minute train ride is a 30 minute bus ride. Trains such as these would have solved the problem.
Fantastic to see Vivarail progressing with this project! Would be great to see these on rural lines without the rattle of the Diesel engine.
A pantograph at the station can give a quick charge and then boost it away from the station.
Or third rail
Very appreciating concept. We developed the device one step above your concept. The trian will continually running on battery with charge automatically on free energy.
you are so adorably happy in these episodes. keep up the good work
Having a third rail or overhead wires at stations and the first few hundred meters leaving the station would so that the train does most if its acceleration while connected would do wonders for the range without much infrastructure costs on old tracks.
The plan is for something similar to this at some stations. Have approximately 50-100m of track energized by stationary battery storage to rapidly charge the unit while its stopped at a station.
Battery trains are by no means new, the 43 mile long Aberdeen to Braemar branch in Scotland using an experimental battery electric 2 car multiple unit which ran from 1958 until 1966 when the line was closed. The lead acid batteries weighed 8 tons under each coach so the frames needed a lot of strengthening. The unit was used for departmental use at the Derby Railway Technical Centre until 1984, and is presently being restored on the Royal Deeside Railway in Scotland.
Here in Dublin where I'm from back in that era we had some battery powered multi units. Nicknamed drum trains and operated in and around south Dublin. But they didn't really take off as the main impractical little with them was they took too long to charge vs the always ready to go AEC built DMUs aslo used at the time.
It's a fantastic idea and a vindication of the quality design of the D78 stock. I I'm from West London and I remember these well. This concept could also be applied to tube size stock and employed on the Isle of Wight line. That would remove the need for the 3rd rail on that line.
I did enjoy this episode, I love to ride on trains, and battery powered, just fantastic.
What is really great about your show is that you find all those fantastic little initiatives like this or those small companies converting old conventional cars and many more!
Robert? Is this the new format of scrapheap challenge? This is re-purpose on the next level. Thank you 👍
The third rail system on Southern & South Eastern trains means leaves, snow, frost, bunny rabbits, etc all cause problems with power pickup. A hybrid would be a brilliant solution. Regen slowing for each station (saves on brakes), use the battery to reduce current draw when accelerating away from station, charge the battery a bit when coasting & continue on when you come up on some dead leaves (or bunnies). If the train had an independent range of 10 miles or so, most trains could get to a station in a power cut, or to the next powered section of track. You could also kill the live rail in stations, making accidents less likely. Bonza.
Excellent!! I cannot wait for battery powered trains to take over the current dirty diesel trains! Hurray! 😄
Daniel Pickering , yes, that works too 😊 I think they mentioned in the video that installing those wires is quite expensive, I'm not sure, I'm not an expert 😊 I think it would be nice to have the battery option too 😊
Yes, Daniel. It's a better solution, but also a more costly one. It's expensive to build and maintain overhead wires. So it needs a large investment to start with. Battery powered trains can go onto those tracks instantly and would enable to make a line run fully electric without needing to electrify a track first. That could be an option later. Or perhaps only parts, so that it can recharge. These battery powered trains will probably cost not much more than a diesel train.
Yes, imagine what railway stations will look like, after a bit of a clean! OK, well, after a lot of a clean -
Daniel Pickering - Network Rail tried, and so far have largely failed, to electrify more of Britain's railways - such as the Great Western main line. Billions of pounds have been wasted, the project is years late, and little has been delivered. Battery-electric trains could mean that more lines could be electrified without the enormous cost of overhead wires, and without the noise and pollution of diesels!
Reason077
good. the millions wasted on hs2 would have been better spent doing such as you mention.
Looks like your camera person had fun with this one.
The camera work just keeps getting better on Fully Charged - Bravo
wow dave is here
This is a super little film. I really enjoyed it. Many thanks!
Just so you don't think UK's trains and rubbish. This is an old "subway" train from the 1970s that has been partly modified and tested before it get's fully converted into a proper train.
Yes, camera man
The train suites You well Robert!
I am so jealous and happy for you !
Fantastic - probably now my favourite Fully Charged episode! I love the Vivarail concept of over hauling and modernising old rolling stock to give lower cost options for branch lines and smaller commuter routes.
Merseytravel have been punting for the slow diesel Wrexham to Bidston, Birkenhead line (Borderlands Line) to be a part of Merseyrail and run into the electrified 3rd rail underground sections in Birkenhead and Liverpool. This could also run onto Liverpool South Parkway south of the city centre on the Merseyrail Northern Line by recommissioning the 300 yards of the 1890s tunnel from Liverpool James St to Central.
The 27 miles long Borderlands Line is slow diesel with electrification an expensive item for an hourly service - although once modernised the frequencies will increase as usage increases. Battery trains are being assessed for this line, which appears ideal for this technology. Trains can use a 3rd rail pickup on the electrified underground sections from Bidston into Liverpool and simultaneously recharging the on-board batteries/supercapacitors. The odd station on the unelectrified section could have a 3rd rail to give an acceleration boost preserving the battery charge and also charge batteries/supercapacitors while at the station.
The Japanese have battery trains in service right now. The new light Stadler Merseyrail fleet is capable of being converted to battery power & 3rd rail and overhead wires & 3rd rail. It is about time the Borderlands Line got some attention with the two new stations planned at Birkenhead built and a proper interchange with the North Wales Coast Line at Shotton.
Me: How fast are you going Robert?
Robert: Thirty
Me: Thirty what?
Robert: Umm...Speed
Wow great job done on those trains, brilliant idea and loved how keen the girl was about the whole thing.
USSR experimented with battery powered trains in the 70's. They modified standard ЭР2 into ЭР2А6 in 1972. Though, those were 40 tons of lead-acid batteries with total capacity of 806 kAh. Tests were conducted between 1973 and 1975. Batteries were charged from overhead wires (I believe they tested them on Riga-Sigulda branch, therefore 2/3 where 2/3 of a track is not electrified to this day). Was later decommissioned due to complications with repairs and certain operational difficulties.
Thank you. That was ... sparking interview :)
Personally my heart will always be with steam trains (I grew up with Thomas the tank engine) but this seems like a very good step forward. Plus I'm jealous Robert I have always wanted to drive a train!!
Love the music
dito that. at first i thought i had music playing in another tab. Really dreamy
"Countryside" by David Edward Holden. ( www.audionetwork.com/browse/m/track/countryside_130004 )
Good stuff. The part of Australia I grew up in still isn't electrified because there is a heritage listed tunnel which is too low for overhead wires - and the economics don't stack up to drill a new tunnel.
If the train could run on overhead power and then flick to battery through the tunnel it'd be sorted. Then of course you could do partial electrification and partial battery runs the rest of the way - whatever makes sense.
How exciting. I'm so stoked (happy). Cheers!
Keep up the good work guys.
Carl Scott I don't disagree, but she also *really* tried.
The worst with diesel trains in the UK is standing on a enclosed platform below a non smoking sign while trying not to breath to heavily. Birmingham New St. is particularly bad when it comes to standing in diesel exhaust.
"Enclosed railway stations hosting diesel trains pose a risk to passengers and workers as exhaust emissions reduce air quality, according to an independent study by the University of Cambridge, University of Minnesota and Minnesota State University Mankato, published in September 2015 in the journal Environmental Research Letters.
The researchers evaluated air quality in London Paddington train station over a period of five days and each time found it to be in breach of European limits regarding nitrogen dioxide (NO2) for outdoor air quality. Further comparisons sampling particulate matter (PM2.5), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and NO2 concentrations also found these to be much higher than on the busy Marylebone roadside located nearby."
from www.railway-technology.com/features/featurethe-big-stink-how-much-do-trains-really-emit-4807131/
Yeah, holding your breath between the time a train enters a station and you sitting down inside is a not uncommon thing in the UK.
I like that it still sounds like a tube train
She's so enthusiastic! Now I'm enthusiastic!
having 3rd rail or overhead power in stations only, to recharge the batteries, would reduce the need and cost of full electrification but enable a diesel free passenger train network. Really love the idea of battery trains and the fact they are repurposed stock too.
its a good idea for power cuts!
Some nice engineering has gone into those bogies - extremely compact and lightweight system by the looks of it.
If you could top up the power at stations, such as an inductive charge pad, that could give extra range and require less batteries to run. It would be particularly useful in areas without full electrification and may be a cheaper alternative.
Bordpie don’t forget all the recovered power from regenerative braking.
Bordpie True, but a pantograph and overhead line might be much cheaper and make more sense. They could have overhead sections just at the stations, would indeed lead to huge savings
Inductive charging will always be way inferior to a direct connection, be it for mobile devices, cars, trains or whatever other application might come up. It's horribly inefficient compared to a wire (quite important at these power levels) and technically much more complicated (so more likely to not work and need service). For trains especially it's way easier to install overhead wires or a third rail at stations to charge.
I only mentioned inductive charging as an example and I was mostly thinking about safety at the time, it could be any of the above methods. I would have thought inductive chargers would be the least maintenance intensive since there's no overhead structure or contacts exposed to the elements that need to be inspected from time to time, and would be the cheapest to retro-fit into existing stations. It isn't too inefficient depending on how you do it and it's basically a temporary transformer so could quite easily cope with high power levels; perhaps it could run directly off mains AC. Anyway, my main point was any type of charger at a station combined with batteries could make a cheaper alternative to full electrification.
@@SuperSiggiboy I was thinking the same they can have a pantograph line just at the station
It might be a false dawn, with the question boiling down to how you crunch the numbers. If the cost of electrifying a line can be justified, the availability of cheaper rolling stock pretty much justifies introducing or keeping a passenger service. If it can't, there might not necessarily be a case for buying more expensive and more limited battery trains. I'll be watching how this technology develops with a lot of interest.
It would be awesome to have this technology come to South and West Wales after the government reneged on its promise to electrify the railway beyond Cardiff...cracking video Robert
I can see why you'd choose LiFePO4 for a train. Weight isn't a huge issue and the density isn't bad (220Wh/l, LiOn can get up to around 3x this but 220 is decent nonetheless) and it's an easier to manage, safe chemistry.
What a brilliant episode. (1) the subject matter was brilliant (2) and the production / filmography was amazing - was like watching a normal broadcast quality program. Very high praise for all involved.
love the music on this show, such a nice change from dubstep/trap everywhere else
I really like David Edward Holden's background music throughout the video :) Sounds very uncommon and reminiscent of a 1970/80's BBC detective TV series. That's what came to mind when I heard it. Was it "Countryside"?
You should so make a trip to Byron Bay NSW Australia, Where they have a Vintage 1949 built 600 Class rail car (Ex Diesel multiple unit 2 car train). It’s so far the worlds only Solar Powered Train with Solar fitted to the roof of the train as well as in built batteries, The main station also has solar and battery storage so the train runs purely off Solar battery power. So you get the old school 40’s style and charm with the 21st century technology, It’s in use everyday doing a timetabled run as a tourist style railway.
great stuff. nice to see a bit of graff in there too. takes me back.
A new life for rolling stock which has proven to be reliable over decades - instead throwing it away. Nice trend, which hopefully will go round the world. The cities Bonn and Cologne (Germany) are overhauling their light railway trains from the seventies. It is more environmentally friendly and cheaper (one third) then buying new trains.
The German Federal Railways had good experience with battery powered trains, even when those were 1950's technology.
The ETA 150 (later Br 515) was a single unit which could pull a trailer.
Those were designed for branch lines were electrification would be too costly in conjunction with the amount of passengers expected, and diesel trains were regarded too noisy for some of those lines, 232 ETA and 216 driving trailers were built from 1955, they served untill 1995.
Besides that those trains were more economical as well to operate.
2 motors of 150Kw each powered the power unit, fed by a 7 ton lead-acid battery, the battery was charged overnight on shore power in the depot.
When fully charged a power car-trailer train weighing 105 ton in total could travel 300km with a top speed of 100km/h.
I remember traveling in these as they ran across the border between Aachen in Germany and Maastricht in the Netherlands, and it was a bit strange to only hear the whine of motors without catenary poles flashing past the windows.
So when those already were a success, why should't they with modern battery technology? The range could be more than 800 miles because energy density of the batteries used on the test train is 4.5 times as high as for a lead-acid battery of the same weight.
It's fascinating to see, that nothing can be too old to be considered to be new...
In 1954, Deutsche Bundesbahn started acquiring 232 units (216 of them dual units) of Class 515 battery powered electric commuter trains. These trains were in reliable service until 1995 when they were replaced by "much more modern" Diesel units.
This is a report of SWR TV from 1999 showing Class 515 (nicknamed "Akkublitz", btw. "Blitz" does not mean anything but lightning, alluding to the - compared to steam engines - lightnig-fast fast acceleration of these units) from first purchase until scrapping. Worth to have a look at even if you don't understand a word ... Have fun!
ua-cam.com/video/11wBZHpr9vQ/v-deo.html
very sad that this project collapsed
the battery powered version is being looked at as a replacement for the now life expired tube stock used on the Isle of Wight, this type of unit is ideal for low density branch lines where recharging can be done either overnight or at terminus stations of course they have re generative braking which uses the brakes to generate electricity so that will help to extend the battery life on lines such as this sort of line i can see the sence in using batty power, plus, on lines where there is either overhead, or third rail, and an non electrified section, rather than having to have two types of traction, you can use one
Great episode and charming lady :)
And now - 4 years later, they're running on the Isle Of Wright... 👍
Alice looks like she is looking at Robert thinking "I'm talking to Kryten"
This could save the day for rail. Very interesting episode Robert, Thankyou.
Fantastic episode. As ever
Ireland developed it's own battery train back in the 1930s, and operated it for 17 years. Wasn't bad it's time, but it wouldn't have been fit for long distances.
lovely
Repurposing BRILLIANT! Very green.
Wonderful that these d stock trains are getting a new life and that viva rail are innovating but they only exist because the government has critically destroyed the rail system, and as nice as these trains are, the north deserves better than 30 year old trains. This will just lead to the government saying "great, not our problem anymore"
I love the variety on this show.
Junkyard Wars guy long time no see
Perfect for reusing the closed lines (Beacham) and keeping the cycling alongside (as so many have been used as cycle paths)
Hi Jim you mean Dr Richard Beeching formerly of ICI from in by the then Conservative government's Transport Secretary of State Ernest Marples. The Resharping Report of British Railways was then carried through by the Labour government of Harold Wilson. Lines closed as late as 1974. So BOTH major parties caused the railway network to reduce.
+Tony Barfield - yep - I've been having difficulty with predictive text, very annoying
The psychopath created cycle paths. Several old routes being seriously looked at in the South East. The Brighton to London lines need "air traffic control" at busy times with one train every 60 seconds in places. Sadly, it does impact idyllic long distance foot/cycle paths & a couple of lovely steam railways. Let's hope they have the cash & noddle to make them all co-exist.
We've got the Borders Railway up here in Scotland.
I always want a battery powered train
Great video pair with probably the best sounds track possible
I think this train should keep its original motor sounds and not a new one as the whine noise on the new motors will annoy people but it's very cool that these will be running on national rail soon but apart from the new motors being a bit annoying it's cool what there doing so well done to vivarail
Grayling the Transport Minister shelved many electrification projects and bought bi-modal trains - they can run on electrified track and on diesel on unelectrified track. The Austrian railways and NZ have both ordered electric battery hybrid trains to be operational in 2019. The Austrian project is big. Japan has been using electric battery hybrid trains for about 4-5 years. Electric battery hybrid is the future, *not burning filthy diesel fuel.* The great thing about battery trains is that when the battery pack needs replacing a newer cheaper pack with about x3 or x4 the range would be fitted as advances are introduced.
Also, the used batteries can be used for electricity grid battery storage used for peak times. There is still a lot of use left in vehicle batteries. Germany is using used Smart Car batteries in a grid storage battery bank. A grid storage battery bank has been commissioned in Barrow - using new batteries. This saves building dams at the tops of mountains and having expensive peak time power stations on stand by.
Having electrified track at stations and where track runs up hills, makes matters better in preserving the energy in the battery, charging the battery, assisting loads, and acceleration from stations. And of course kinetic braking regeneration using supercapacitors.
All obvious, except to those in charge. But Grayling bought a whole raft of electric diesel hybrid, so we all be driving around in EVs by the time they get rid of these fitly toxic spewing trains.
The D stock looks very odd with only one carriage...
Battery/electric hybrid trains are successful in Japan. The Mayflower line 3 years ago had a revenue trial. All appeared successful. The great thing about batteries is the successful R&D in new battery technology. Toyota are to make `glass` batteries which can charge up very quickly - ideal for commuter runs in the UK. These trains can transform the likes of Merseyrail - the line does not reach the Helsby junction because of sparks while running past Stanlow oil refinery. Charging can be at stations as the train halts. These glass batteries hold at least x 3 the charge.
By fitting in a new battery set a train is transformed in the future. Look up a man named Goodenough, who invented the Lith-Ion battery, he has developed the glass battery - solid state.
The future is battery in trains, cars and even coastal ship to start with. Cruise liners would be ideal for masses of battery banks dropping in at a port per day. Dockside charging.
Modern batteries will stabilise the grid, look up the home Tesla Powerwall. Couple the Powerwall to a roof solar array, and a million of these mean we need not build any more power stations. A grid battery bank is being built at Barrow for peak usage. The Germans have a grid battery bank using used Smart Car EV batteries.
The future is battery.
these are the D-stock which were scrapped but now turned into the class 230 for vivarail
That really is a nice refurb. I hope this works out and they get to revitalise some neglected routes. Especially with the recent announcement about looking into reopening closed lines.
That motor sounds nice
We the UK may be behind other countries with this but lets get it going and see
So happy to see this technology being spread to where it can make a huge ecologic impact!
What a beautiful show!
Amazing how a train made in 1978 can still be a vision of the future!
Yep it only proves just because it’s old doesn’t mean it cant be as useful as brand-new train
i imagine these electric locomotives now as if they shared the same features a stea engine would have.
a Battery storage tender-like car attached to it
big wheels if possible with rods
air-whistles that gives charm
very nice.
Mean while the LIRR is going to start testing this technology.
Fascinating video and I like the concept of refurbishing existing rolling stock that is only about ten years old. According to Vivarail's news release, they can get about 80 miles range out of the batteries before a recharge which is more than I had anticipated.
Brian Griffiths I think 1980 was a bit longer than 10 years ago. unless you're reffering to refurbishing / re-engineering newer trains...?
So many cameras, so many angles. I can't even imagine the size of the project folder.
Department for transport say the major cost in electrifying rail lines is raising the bridges to get wires under and widening tunnels. Trains running on battery only, means these choke points are easily overcome. All looks good, go electric/battery. *But!* There was a battery train trial three years ago in 2015. The result of the trial was that Network Rail said the technology was not there yet, being too expensive and limited range. The equipment used on the trial is now being used by Vivarail. It has a top speed of 60mph and a range of 40 miles on an 8 minute minute charge and 50 miles on a 10 minute max charge. The range is enough for one way on an average branch.
The the size and weight of a 4-car class 379 compared to a smaller and lighter 2-car class 230 Vivarail means they are viable. This went over the heads of Network Rail. The same battery set gives a greater range to the class 230 Vivarail.
So, we have seen no battery trains, while other countries are starting to use battery trains and Vivarail are making them. Then Network Rail run out and buy electric/diesel bi-modal trains that pour out filth. :(
No biggie here. In 2007, Norfolk Southern Railroad converted an EMD GP38 to totally electric using 1,080 12 volt batteries.
billyboi57 funnily I've never heard of that somehow. I know about two "export only" EMD G12's that ended up in Canada due to an order from a shortline that didn't exist since the 60's, yet something like that I've never heard of...
Great idea, great video! In a pinch it could send electricity back to the grid as a temporary power source in an emergency outage situation. Love the faces the engineer was making while they were talking behind him in the beginning! lol! " bloody 'ell, can't they natter on in the coach section? I'm busy here!" Lmao
Loved the music in this episode.
Seeing you in train, I remembered your Documentary on Indian Railways in the 'Worlds Busiest Railway 2015'......Keep the good work....Loving your contents from India.
Fabulous video, you obviously had a great time. I love the thinking behind this.
That whistle, though, was rubbish.
so sad to see the old D-Stock like this. at least they still have some form of life
Classic insta-like video :). Thanks Rob!
I've been thinking that this would solve many problems in places like Melbourne Australia where I live.
We have a terrible rail system which is totally cbd central driven and no link lines between each arm.
This means that what would be 10 to 15 mins between suburbs, turns into 2 hours easily.
The bus system is also useless which is another story.
This would mean that they could create lines with no need for over heads between stations and have a short section of over head to boost acceleration and increase battery charge time seems most of the charge would be used getting the train moving, which would also save weight in the battery pack.
I like it a lot
The Dept for Transport slowed electrification as it looked as if fuel cell trains would be on the market. One was operational in China. Now it is batteries that slow up electrification. But batteries are viable and feasible *now.*
This looks so professional.