Credit Cards and Invisible Computing - Computerphile
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- In this era of invisible computing how do you define a computer? Professor Tom Rodden talks to Brady about what counts and what doesn't.
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This video was filmed and edited by Sean Riley.
Computer Science at the University of Nottingham: bit.ly/nottscom...
Computerphile is a sister project to Brady Haran's Numberphile. See the full list of Brady's video projects at: bit.ly/bradycha...
I feel like you blew through your animation budget trying to conceal his credit card. :)
lolol
I wonder what algorithm/codec the original video was recorded in... did it use compression, and would any artifacts be left? Would the artifacts from the original be masked by the conversion to UA-cam etc... and can we decode it to find the concealed card? :O
TechyBen I'm not sure you really want to know, but here you go anyway :) - recorded in AVCHD, transcoded to DNxHD to edit, Exported as h.264 to animate/obscure CC, re-exported as h.264 and then re-imported as DNxHD to continue the edit, then exported as QT SAS (i.e. not transcoded, just re-wrapped DNxHD) to compress for UA-cam upload, compressed as h.264 and then uploaded to UA-cam where this happened to it: How UA-cam Works - Computerphile (and yes there are easier workflows and ones that create less artifacts, though sometimes these things happen organically!) Good luck getting back to source though :) >Sean
I cringe, whenever I see other people's credit cards. This is such private information. I hope, you got all the frames in this video :\
Very interesting content too. There are indeed more computers in my life than I though.
***** Since when did you need the physical card or the pin number to order things online or over the phone...?
*****
Technically, all you would need is the Card numbers and the security code. Then I can just go online, punch in false info and buy stuff from your card.
*****
Please, post them here.
***** Ahh, fair enough. I assumed that it worked the same everywhere nowadays. In the UK i can technically use anybody's card to order online - the only "check" is the first order has to go to the registered address. If you get your card stolen it's generally an immediate scramble to cancel it!!
Those validation devices are great. In the UK you use the for Internet Banking only but rolling them out to all online shopping would be a good move. You do have SecureCode available if needed but that's just an extra password and most of the time there are ways to bypass it anyway!
thecassman They also ask you for the security code on the back of the card, and if you're online you go through a third tire of authentication with Visa or Mastercard.
But you could have a machine specifically built to complete the task performed inside the credit card. For example cars used to have distributors and now the have a computer. Does it mean a distributor is a computer? Not really. I think a computer is something that is not built for any specific purpose, but can be programmed to complete any task, from a distributor to a phone.
What language is he speaking?
I think his definition is a bit too broad. My guitar pedal takes input, processes it, and outputs a signal that differs from the original input signal. But I wouldn't call my guitar pedal a computer. My pool filter takes in water, processes it, and outputs water that is different, and I wouldn't call my pool filter a computer.
There isn't a computer embeded in a credit card... the computer is the machine where you pass the card, that's where the verifications are made. After that it's pretty hard to have any credibility.
There is in fact a microprocessor (usually 8 or possibly 16 bit) with up to 8 KiB of RAM and a clock frequency on the order of MHz. For reference: the NES had 2 KiB of working RAM and a clock frequency of 1.79 MHz. So yeah, a credit card is a more powerful computer than one of the most popular gaming consoles of the past.
So I see... it only gets the energy from the reader then. I feel stupid, thanks for clearing that up and apologies for my incorrection.
I'm not completely familiar with the European system of credit cards, but for historical reasons, it is not the same as the American system. The US system was built on and can still be used as the card reader calling the bank to confirm the PIN. In Europe, historically, the phone call was far too expensive it make it practical. So their card readers will talk with the card to confirm the PIN and then the money exchange is worked out in bulk at a later time. Feel free to check that and tell me how wrong I am.
That depends on where you are. The professor probably has a "Chip and Pin" card (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_and_PIN). Chip cards are /very/ uncommon in the U.S.
Actually, no. In the US, that's true, but most other places (including Europe...where this video is made) use what's called a Chip-and-Pin card. Those actually have microcontrollers on them, and every time you put it in a machine, the computer on the card changes the encrypted PIN on it so it can't be re-used. It's for security: no one can read your PIN and clone it, because once it's read, it can't be re-used.
The US is actually planning on finally catching up and implementing Chip-and-Pin cards within the next few years :)
(Spurred, no doubt, by the recent credit card cloning thefts in Target and other stores that hit thousands of people).
ofc you'd put Pi on the freaking card xD
Did that guy know you were going to censor his card before he started waving it around everywhere?
I suspect it's partly because his card is, as he said, a picture of his children.
TRiG.
But where is the border between single computer and a bunch of computers working together? Today even harddrives have surprisingly fast processors and RAM and are running their own OS, so does that mean that my PC is actually three computers because it has two of them? The SIM-Card in my phone has a processor and RAM, too and is running Java, but does that make my Phone two computers?
By that definition I'm currently surrounded by about 20 computers.
***** I'd be careful about bringing OSes into the definition. The earliest computers didn't have an OS; the application would run directly on the hardware. (There would also need to be a bit of firmware, I'm sure, just to bootstrap getting the app started, but once the app is running the firmware is finished - in contrast to an OS that keeps running _while_ an app is running.) Of course this made application development much more difficult, and hence we invented OSes and haven't looked back! ;) But that wasn't true in the bad-ol'-days, and I also wonder if some types of embedded computers (e.g., in your car or your watch) may not have an OS, or at least not in the sense that we traditionally understand the term.
"By that definition I'm currently surrounded by about 20 computers."
Why not? I don't see what is so strange about that.
Dave Lillethun
"the application would run directly on the hardware", Doesn't all applications run directly on the hardware in the end?
***** Wait, so if my notebook doesn't have any OS installed (or it doesn't run any programs), it is not a computer?:D
***** No, "in the end" is very different than "directly."
You can tell simply by thumbnail this will be enjoyable - it's computerphile and you must love this accent.
Nice creditcard number, the first 16 digits of pi.
And if you think about it, that computers are just that small.
I want a credit card that is day-glow green on black and changes size as it is moved around in space too.
Could we have more videos about things like hacking and general programming instead of videos about the history of computing? I personally really liked the video about SQL injection and the series about drawing graphics.
Can we get some subtitles over here?
Poor Brady, having to motion track him waving the card around.
Sean edited this video - not my problem...
>Brady
- A computer makes computation.
- What is computation?
- Come on! Really? What is life? What is our purpose in the Universe. God? Who knows?
- So you dont know...
- no
Psst! Wrong title!! :)
Bank of computerphile :)
Loving pi on the credit card.
Interesting thought: How *potholes* may threaten civil liberties.
Should've used Tau! Hehe :)
I'd like to know how many computers the professor would say are in my laptop. It seems to me that there would be ~750 million. A transistor takes input, makes a decision and produces output, right?
I suppose that's technically true... Kind of stretches the definition to breaking point though... XD. Leaving that aside, a laptop almost certainly can be argued to have multiple computer systems operating in parallel. Depending on how you define it, it's arguably a networked computer system, because a lot of the sub-components can perform computing tasks in isolation.
The language gets very muddy past a certain point...
More of this guy please!
Oh and if banks REALLY wanted to secure credit and debit cards it would be fairly trivial to do so. Just enforce an 8 digit PIN plus use an addition to the pin from an RSA token or even Google Authenticator. 14 digits means an attacker would have 30 seconds to crack several trillion possibilities, or 3 trillion per second.
When Google takes over credit cards, every purchase is going to require watching lame adsense commercials, broken rewrites, feature crippling mandatory upgrades, having to re-log in every day, & constant server down time.
How did you come to the conclusion that attackers would only have 30 seconds to crack it?
Simple, the code rotates after 30 seconds to a new one. Good luck cracking the PIN that way.
kd1s which code? If you mean the actual PIN, that'd be incredibly inconvenient for the cardholder and unwieldy for the agency to notify the cardholder of the new PIN. If you mean the *encrypted* PIN, thatd require the unencrypted PIN to be readily available to the agency for re-encryption each time, thereby defeating the purpose of encrypting it in the first place.
Besides, why would a hacker bother trying to break the encryption when he could just guess the 8-digit PIN much faster?
The PIN would be a composite, something you know + something you have. For example, say I chose 12345678 as a PIN, plus a Google Authenticator code of 901234 that will rotate in 30 seconds. Plus you could have it so the 12345678 could be at the beginning or end or middle of the Google Authenticator code.
And Google Authenticator runs on IOS and Android. The RSA token would benefit those without smart phones. Simple enough.
I hope that clears it up for you because you obviously didn't read my comment before replying.
I may be oversimplifying this - but for me - its a computing device if it runs code. That may be on a rom, burned into a chip and now inaccessible for use - but clock + instruction unit = computer. If it fails to have clock + instructions, it isn't. Now - I suppose you could say a 7490 counter chip has a clock, and control lines (instructions), but is definitely not a computer... It doesn't run code. The RFID is an interesting example - as I've seen one made using an attiny.
Love the accent of Professor Rodden. glade to have friends from Glasgow to be able to understand him!
oh, by the way, I'm not english native speaker, I'm french.
docsharp00 Do people really find it difficult? I'm not natively English, neither have I ever talked to anyone from any part of the UK and I have no trouble understanding him
Given the definition of computer: something that accepts input, performs manipulations, and gives output, an RFID could be considered a computer. The input is the signal received by its antenna. It uses that input to power up circuitry, then manipulates the circuitry in such a way as to reproduce a number that represents something, e.g. the identity of the holder of the card, then sends that number as output.
We have become so used to storing and retrieving data that we forget the complexity of the operations needed to reliably, over time, and without power or intervention, save and retrieve it.
That's pushing it. It doesn't manipulate any data. The signal passes through the RFID tag, but the result isn't really from any processing of the signal. It's essentially just an "on" switch, and all the processing occurs inside the chip without using the initiation signal anymore.
If you consider that a computer, then you would need to consider every electrical system a computer as well. For example: a lightbulb is a computer because it takes the input--a flipped switch--and reroutes the power to the bulb, which converts that signal into visible light--output.
The RFID does manipulate the data by transforming it from a stored format into a transmittable format and then transmitting it.
About the lightbulb, I think, for the definition to hold, it would have to be considered a single bit computer. The bulb accepts an input voltage, "examines" the state of the filament (broken or intact), then outputs light and heat based that.
David Walls
That's not manipulating the data, though. The information is the same, just in a different format.
This reminds me of the "Hacking Transcend WiFi SD Cards" ... those cards were running Linux in a ARM926EJ-S rev 5 ... 16/32GB flash, 32MB RAM, wifi connectivity, all inside a SD card!
one major issue throughout this video.. his credit card is NOT a computer (read; cred_card =/= computational_device), it is a STORAGE MEDIUM.. the card stores one copy of one half of a 2-part handshake key in it's magnetic strip/RFID chip (if it's equipped with one), Your bank stores the other! No mathematics are processed on that card, NONE. if there were, you couldn't shop online with the numbers without having some functional interface other than being a human Xerox for the digits! the reason I'm not stating the same for the RFID access card is because the opposite might, MIGHT be true, where the door uses a public/private key architecture that may rely on the code in the door sending a specific decoding key to request the encoded digits in the RFID chip be sent in the clear, though this is both impractical, and just as insecure as any RFID based key..
Your RFID keycard is insecure. If it works the way you described it, it's as simple as that. Given the tech-savvy environment you're in, you might as well leave the doors unlocked. That would at least discourage people from breaking in for sport.
Please do a video on Bitcoin, either on the Blockchain or its relation to CBC (Block Cipher) Encryption!!
Although to be fair one cannot discuses the Blockchain without CBC encryption.
In Crypto We Trust!!
The original meaning of 'putare' was 'to make clean', then 'to make clear, to come clear' before it changed to 'to think, to presume'.The original meaning is still evident in 'amputate' = 'to cleanse round about'.
Words like 'impute' 'dispute' 'reputation' all carry the same meaning, 'to think or reckon'.
Just a small remark - modern car would have 100-200 "computers" (microcontrollers) in it. Source: thats what auto-motive engieering companies say
To whoever asked about the 30 seconds it's simple - the RSA or Google code changes every 30 seconds. So that code you had 30 seconds ago? Gonzo!
Today, ive past through 4 computers, and ive been at home all day. During the week I pass through atleast 130 computers. Im taking bout desktops or labtops.
GREAT VID! pls do something on computation and ALUs - i think you are the right person to talk about bit manipulation on lowest level :D
love your channels Brady - especially sixtysymbols! I'm a computer geek, when i hear bankers or politicians talking about economy and trade, I feel like they are from mars talking about their important martian ways to improve the humble earthly creatures lives. Would you be interested in doing videos on economics or trading? Or does anyone know of any channels like that?
+Truthiness231 all calculators are computers because they all run an algorithm to read key input and convert it to binary. its not like you use around 100 toggle switches to input a number. If you did it would only be an alu (somthing that plays an important rolein computers)
"Not make it something scary that threatens civil liberties is the challenge for us as researchers." Too bad that this is something the industry and the users both don't give a shit about.
It's a hard problem so the less you care about it, the faster you will be able to bring your newest gadgets and features to market. And as an added benefit, once you collect these data and people don't care, you can sell them. So everybody's happy. But thanks for caring about democracy, dear researchers. I'm sure _someone_ will appreciate the sentiment in retrospect. Like, when it's too late.
Interesting.. In my own mind, basic computer has to be able to compare two values or conditions and output true or false.. Of course i'm not right but it has nice "meta", if you will, of making a decision.
I think its rather interesting they can use the accelerometer in your phone to detect where pot holes are. I'm sure Torontotians in Toronto, Ontario would like something like this, especially with some roads becoming riddled with car wrecking pot holes.
I'm also thinking they should try using such a technology to perhaps detect if someones gotten into an accident. Perhaps a slip and fall, or a car accident. Perhaps it would ask if your ok and if it times out, would then procced to alert emergency services, and let them know that the phone had detected a huge shock while in possesion of someone. Some how though it'd have to diffrentiate a fall to the ground from a clumsy user, and a true accident where someones life may be on the line so as not to give 911 (or 119) false alerts
The blood of how many interns was spilled to produce that snazzy disguise for Mr. Rodden's credit card?
interesting that rodden said rfid doesn't count to him as computing, after giving an example of a very simple system. i wonder if an rfid-based system that's more complex, like oyster or charliecard or any number of other transit cards would count or not, given that it's rfid.
Embedded computing makes the average hiring manager's brain melt.
I love how 2 of the examples were things that we really don't have much of in the US, at least comparatively. :)
first
Though some credit cards may have a chip on them. Most do not. And even those that do, the chip isn't used to validate the card.
Your credit card doesn't perform a computation, it's not a computer. It contains the data that a computation is operated with to validate the card.
How about a physical system that has been arranged in such a way as to take one or more inputs and perform an operation on them. Consider a set of pistons to perform some multiplicative task. It seems that in order to be a true computer nowadays, an object needs to process and possess some form of memory.
Great video! I always tell people that humans used to be the computers and end up in arguments, now i have some evidence :)
Censoring the credit card looked like he was flicking us off at some points....lol
how did they make this black censor for his credit card? is it something automatic or did someone put effort into it?
What would 'smart city' look like? Do you guys have video about that?
Good stuff. The last partwas he was basically describing the industrial internet n the use of big data
How can I get credit card from Bank of Computerphile?
I think you have Numberphile's credit card
When the camera's on Brady, who's controlling the camera?
i think your audio input level is too high. there's so much distortion. cmiiw.
Could you guys talk a bit more about RFID and how it works.
My mother was a computer. Then later in her career she programmed computers.
bank of computerphile? I see what you did there ;D
Could you please make a video about Bitcoin?
only the new credit cards compute data but the older ones don't
how did computerphile get my credit card number?
This guy's accent is LOVELY
Taking credit card roulette to a whole new level.
Por ahí hubiéramos empezado xD
by your definition we are computers
Nice editing on the credit card. ;)
That is called embeded computer
Great video, love this channel
Just for fun count CPU's in a room. I just did it here - and I come up with 22 which includes two computers, two game platforms, a TV and cable box, RasPi, two VHF/UHF radios, remotes, etc. It's amazing.
I suppose my old TV still has a processor... My PC uses a pair of dual-core processors, and nearly every part of it has another chip in it, including the mouse and wireless keyboard. You might count more than a dozen just in the PC.
Oh of course - mine was just a rough count. There are little processors of some sort in just about everything these days.
Interesting topic. :-)
a computer is a number cruncher
How long did that take you to edit
Is that Drew Barrymore at 0:08?
Two minutes ago!
A computer to me is anything that needs a processor to compute any equation or task automatically without the need of a human or with the need of a human. EG a kettle. A kettle needs to know when it is hot or cold and when to switch off. This means their is a computer inside doing just that task. Then we could use an MP3 Player. That is a computer. Has memory, processor and RAM. This could effectively be a computer. CCTV can be a computer controlled by man or machine. ATM is most definitely a computer. It has a Tower and OS built into the ATM. This then runs a highly sophisticated program that has high encryption and security. This I worked out when I went to a cash machine to withdraw money from and Windows XP was on the screen with 3 programs. One looked like the overlay control and the other looked like command based programs. Never knew how ATMs worked until then.
Hah. Most of those are pretty clearly computers of some kind. The kettle on the other hand does kind of stretch the definition. I doubt most kettles even contain any digital logic at all. A properly adjusted thermocouple would be sufficient to turn off the power to the kettle when the temperature gets high enough... Whether something that is that simple, and almost entirely mechanical in nature could be considered a computer is a bit awkward...
I suppose the majority of people would at the very least expect a 'computer' to refer to a 'programmable computer', which, while being more restrictive than simply a device which computes something, but still includes a huge list of embedded devices. (A device with a cpu, memory and a fixed program written to a ROM image is still programmable, even if the end user can't alter the program anymore...)
There are kettles out there that do have some computing going on. Like for example Macdonalds. You can change each button to make a different drink. This is "Programmable" thus making it a computer. Yeah your bog standard flip the switch kettle is by no means a computer otherwise that would be like saying my light switch is a computer lol. But kettles that can do different things like the one exampled is technically a computer. But him saying a credit card is a computer is not a computer. The only thing that changes is the tag inside or chip which only changes AFTER it has been updated via being put into the cash machine or on a server meaning the card does no computer stuff at all. But then people could argue that a HDD isn't a computer then as it only reads and writes. But that's where this sort of conversation would need to be really really deep to explain and I am in no way in a right mind frame for that. Computer is a very confusing word and can be hard to explain for some things. I guess the "Older generation" will see things as computers more than the younger generation due to the first "computer" that all it did was do math. ONE BIG ASS AUTO CALCULATOR. LOL. To me anything that can compute or be editted thus needing code to work and allowing user input is a computer. And my kettle example should have been better explained before. My apologies for that. was 4am. XD
sammyjc89 Yeah, it gets really messy if you think about it to hard.
However, his example of the bank card implied that the card itself does processing, NOT the ATM. (The atm is just supplying power, and requesting the card to do something) - A computer without a power supply of it's own I suppose...
Future smart settees.
I believe there should be a distinction between a computer and an integrated circuit, on this video. A smart phone or an IP camera is a "computer" but an RFID card, a smart card / chip card / SIM cardis just an integrated circuit so more or less a (micro)processor. The same goes for a transponder car key or a smart car key.
I draw the line at: "is there software?"
In smart car keys are little microcontrollers. With a firmware. So, some programmer sat there writing a few hundred lines of code that runs inside the key. That sounds like a computer to me. BTW, the humble SIM card has a µC, too.
So it's basically a computer as well.
That's basically what he said when he gave the example of how his RFID-tagged university card isn't a computer, while his Chip-and-Pin card is. He made that very distinction: it needs to process input to be considered a computer.
IceMetalPunk
But especially the "input>processing>output" analogy is flawed. A simple bcd to dec converter does the same, but with just a few transistors (well, few means ~100). That's not a computer. To me, a "computer" starts when a general purpose processing unit reads instructions from a memory.
You are right IceMetalPunk he did make that distinction but I some how missed it. I still have problem with his distinction or even MrTridac "is there software" distinction. I expect a computer to have a complex user interface that allows a user to modify the operation of the computer at least.
Thanks
OK
Could you call an oscilloscope a computer then?
modern ones are
Martin O'Donnell I guess digital ones are, but I've always thought of an analog oscilloscope as just a meter, not actually manipulating data. Is this what you mean by modern?
Problem with his definition of computer: a calculator takes in input, does work with said input, and returns an output; however, a calculator is not a computer.
khaled khunaifer Na I'm talkin' 'bout : www.roycerealestate.net/sites/default/files/sidebar-images/29-Calculator-Jumbo.jpg
Calculator, not computer. Still fits the definition. That's what I'm talking about. Not something that is a computer. Nor calculators that perform sets of instructions. Just calculates; doesn't compute. Again, not a computer. It's a calculator. Not sure I can make this any clearer...
I've always understood it that intrinsic to the definition of a computer is programmability. If it's device can have its program (algorithm) changed to provide a different set of outputs or output states for a given set of inputs/input states, I'd say that is definitely a computer.
Why is a calculator not a computer? It has a CPU, memory, keyboard for input, digital screen for output... Etc... Perhaps the calculator is not a computer, but it is a calculator because there is a computer in it, :P Let's not split hairs and argue over semantics.
just found this on wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculator#Calculators_compared_to_computers
Calculators are computers, except maybe for early mechanical ones.
i suggest later computerphile would features cryptocurrency as the upcoming video topic...
could it be the presence of transistors that draws the line in the sand?
Definitely not. There were computers before transistors existed, and future computers likely won't have transistors. We're already working with memristors as a potential replacement.
yes i understand, and when i said transistors i meant non passive components, that yes existed before. i did not know about memristors and am not sure i understand how they would replace transistors. I was trying to say than in order to have computation the system has to have some degree of internal variability, which transistors offer.
Simon Lopes
But then that would make essentially any electrical device into a computer. For example, a fluorescent bulb would be a computer because its gas can either be excited or not, and that determines the state of the bulb. But certainly that's not a computer?