Titanic Tropes: Ismay & Smith Discuss Speed (1943-2012)
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- Опубліковано 6 кві 2024
- Scenes where Captain Smith and Bruce Ismay talk about the ship's speed, ice warnings, etc.
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Just a couple of details: the 1997 portrayal is based on the account of first class passenger Elizabeth Lines. The scene takes place in the exact time, date, and location she states in her deposition. Also, people often assume that Ismay is saying he wants to beat the transatlantic record for speed even though he does not state that. It was Titanic's sister ship Olympic that Ismay was wanting to beat, and that is what Elizabeth Lines stated in her deposition. James Cameron removed the discussion of the Olympic because it would confuse the audience who isn't aware of Olympic. But, the gist of the conversation remains the same - beating the Olympic's crossing time and getting to New York on Tuesday. Here is the exact text from lines 43-51 of her deposition which is available online: 43. If there were any particular words spoken that you can remember, I should be glad to hear them.
- Those words fixed themselves in my mind: "We will beat the Olympic and get in to New York on Tuesday."
44. Do I understand you to say that the other things that you stated were the general substance of what you heard and not the exact things or words used?
- No, I heard those statements.
45. What was said by Mr. Ismay as regards the condition of the performances, of the engines, machinery and boilers?
- He said they were doing well, they were bearing the extra pressure. The first day's run had been less, the second day's run had been a little greater. He said "You see they are standing the pressure, everything is going well, the boilers are working well, we can do better to-morrow, we will make a better run to-morrow."
46. In speaking of standing the pressure well, Mr. Ismay was referring to the boilers, was he not?
- Of the boilers, I gathered.
47. I understand that hitherto you have been stating what you heard Mr. Ismay say: is that true?
- Yes.
48. What, if anything, did you hear Captain Smith say?
- I did not hear anything.
49. Did you hear the sound of his voice?
- No.
50. Won't you describe as well as you can, the tone and gesture of Mr. Ismay in this conversation?
- It was very positive, one might almost say dictatorial. He asked no questions.
51. Mrs. Lines, if you can recall anything else sat at that conversation, either in words or in substance, please state it.
- There was a great deal of repetition. I heard them discuss other steamers, but what I paid the most attention to was the Titanic's runs, and it was simply that Mr. Ismay repeated several times "Captain, we have done so and so, we have done so and so, everything is working well." He seemed to dwell upon the fact, and it took quite a little time, and then finally I heard this very positive assertion: "We will beat the Olympic and we will get into New York on Tuesday" but he asked no questions.
Was there an interrogation of Ismay after the sinking? I wonder what he had to say about this conversation with Captain Smith.
@@danielm3192 Yes, there was an inquiry and he denied he pressured Smith to speed up - though, I wouldn't really expect him to admit it. Again, I believe her account as it explains why they were going so fast through and ice field only a moonless night and not stopping or coming to a slow creep like other ships in the area did, especially since they weren't behind schedule. Others who don't believe her account have tried explaining over the years by saying "well, he went a little south of the known ice field etc" but it just doesn't suffice in my mind. But, that's me - people have debated it for over a century now and it doesn't look like it's ever going to end haha. Btw. The woman you see in the background peering over at them in the 1997 scene is supposed to be Elizabeth Lines.
@@titanictx883 thanks! Yeah I’m sure with all the info out there it will keep being debated. I think you’re right though. They were going too fast, and they knew there was ice around with all of the ice warnings that had come in. Very sad, and also very senseless!
@@titanictx883Except her testimony wasn’t part of the inquiry. It was a limited liability hearing done over a year later, and a lot of what she said is taken out of context and twisted in the Cameron film.
@@giovannirastrelli9821 Nobody said it was part of the inquiry. As I stated, it t was a deposition. I copied and pasted a direct portion of it. The film is a beautiful condensed version of the conversation. While Cameron inserts possible explanations as to why Ismay would want to get to New York on Tuesday (Headlines) I don't see him taking Lines words out of context nor twisting it - the gist and most important point of the conversation remains the same = get to New York on Tuesday night ahead of schedule. I think you're an example of someone who doesn't believe her and who doesn't WANT it to be true, so you make a comment like that in hopes it will create a little confusion or doubt, but anyone who wants can go read it directly for themselves and be the judge.
''i believe you may get your headlines, Mr Ismay'. Such a, powerful line.
My favorite line
He did
Titanic sinks
My favorite portrayal of Captain Smith is definitely the 1997 one with Bernard Hill
It looks the most like him too
You Should Hate 1997's Tiitanic As Rose And Jack Fuck
@@obaidulhoquebhuiyan7095 HOW HARE YOU TELL ME HOW TO HATE SOMETHING!! THAT IS SO DISRESPECTFUL!!
@@erikthetrainmaster6112Laurence Naismith in A Night to Remember had a resemblance to Captain Smith. Enough that when Naismith met Smith's daughter, she was overcome by it. That's one moment Bernard Hill will never have.
@@obaidulhoquebhuiyan7095don’t ever tell us what we should hate or like ITS MY CHOICE !!! My choice ! MY CHOICE ! My CHOICE ! MY CHOICE !
I used to work with Steve Ismay, Bruce's grandson. He was the specialist in submarine steam generator manufacturer for Astute.
Glad to hear his family continuing Maritime adventures
2012 fits more with Ismay's policy of "do not take risks"
He did the same on the maiden voyage of the Olympic, when pressured by Phillip Franklin to convince Captain to get a full steam ahead to arrive into New York harbor Tuesday night instead of Wednesday morning
ismay wasnt a bad person but these movies needed some sort of antagonist and they chose him.
@@randomrazr movies ALWAYS choose Ismay
It was close and also far away at the same time. I can't imagine either Ismay nor Smith having such a conversation, especially in light of the liability hearing testimony, where the closest they came was discussing a full-speed trial run on Monday or Tuesday, if weather and the machinery held up.
@@ArchivoLocalUYthe media chose Ismay as the villain right after the event.
@@ChrisCooper312 Also true
My biggest gripe with "based on true story" movies: they often make a real life person more villainous just to give the audience someone to hate. Ismay was not nearly the asshole the movie made him out to be. My favorite sports movie, Rudy, had this exact problem, turning the head coach character into an antagonist.
In real life Ismay helped to fill the lifeboats and only entered it when there were no more women and children in line. The fact that he survived the Titanic disaster at all ruined his reputation for the rest of his life.
Sorry, but while I both agree movies fudge facts, that this movie indeed did do that about Ismay (claiming he said and did things he never did), and that movies indeed do try to create a "villain" out of nowhere...
Ismay was actually *much worse* in real life than this movie portrayed! In real life, he refused to pay the crew members who manned the lifeboats, accusing them of "leaving their posts" (read: because they were supervising lifeboats - which they were *ordered* to do - when they "should have been on the ship" 🤬🤬🤬), he refused to refund or reimburse the surviving passengers after their near-death experience, he refused to pay out owed funds/life insurance to family members of the crew members who died (which was required under White Star Line's own contract) - often going so far as to blame the crew members for their own deaths - and, possibly sickest of all, he even tried to claim ownership rights of the bodies of people who died in the wreck (many of whom had their bodies recovered so they could be buried) and attempted to charge family members of the deceased to have their dead loved ones bodies returned to them so they could give them a proper funeral!
This guy was actually *far more* disgusting and in a *completely different way* than the movie portrayed him to be! I'm mad the movie didn't portray his *actual* horrible behavior and instead *made up* actions by him! 😖😖😖
As for whether his reputation was ruined for "surviving" the wreck - while some used those words, let's be clear that the *actual* problem people had was that his company and his ship *caused* this disaster (i.e., he was the face of the entity that killed all those people)! His reputation was ruined even if he'd gone down with the ship! Even if he'd gone down with the ship, the world still would've seen him as a murderer. And yes, his disgusting actions in the aftermath cemented his reputation!
@mazdakmina9493 none of that is true. He may have been kind of a jerk but he helped people the whole night as long as he could
@@Jawf94 LOL It's all true, Google it! And do your research before pretending to know what's true and what isn't!
It’s why I prefer A Night To Remember, his depiction is more nuanced. He waves off concerns of ice, but gets panicked and tries to help passengers get into lifeboats
Knowing all too well most people were about to die
Ismay actually did not like his ships arriving in port early; it would upset shore travel arrangements. He preferred, understandably, his ships being right on time. So I find it highly unlikely he would have tried to coerce Captain Smith into getting into New York on Tuesday night, considering he did not want Olympic to do the same.
So I'd say it's actually the 1979 and 2012 versions that portray him the most fairly. Well, with regards to this particular trope, of course. 2012 Ismay is also portrayed as ordering the Italian waiters from Gatti's restaurant locked below, which... yeah.
Ismay wasn't racist against Italians, he choosed an Italian to run the A La Carte Restaurant
@@ArchivoLocalUY Exactly, showing him as ordering the Italian waiters locked up so they can drown is horribly inaccurate. That is perhaps the worst thing he's been shown doing in any of these Titanic productions.
Its actually baffling how they made the actual research to portray Ismay as not wanting to arrive ahead of schedule which is correct and rare on most Titanic movies, and then went on to pull that outta pocket random racist shit with the italian waiters lmao
@@NorthWestern1919Having him urge the captain to go faster is inaccurate since he never did that in real life.
Also titanic was built for luxury, not speed so going for a speed record was out of the question for sure. More than likely, the conversation being overheard was a mere observation statement from ismay on the titanics performance so far, and nowhere near the actual context of the 97 movie.
2012 is the only accurate depiction of Ismay😂
Yeah, some of these scenes (especially from the 1996 version) are downright ridiculous.
To any Ismay haters: William Hearst started the narrative that painted Ismay as the villain of the Titanic story when, in reality, multiple factors played a role on April 12th ,1912. Smith had the final say regarding the operation of Titanic, and like Andrews, Ismay was only a passenger on the voyage. Had the SS Californian been in Cameron's movie, that would have blown Hollywood's Ismay narrative out of the water and made Ismay more human to the audience than a villain. Look at how Cameron wrote Officer Murdoch's fate and how the real officer's family reacted to how Hollywood painted the man.
Also boiler room 1 never got lit up during the voyage so titanic wasn't going at her top speed.
Yep. William Randolph Hearst was a wicked, vengeful guy who happened to own most of the news media in the US. If you got on his bad side, he could destroy you. Ismay got on his bad side and it had nothing to do with Titanic.
Exactly, Cameron's version is amazing in terms of visuals, but his version misrepresented a lot of actual facts and did dirty to a lot of people who actually did amazing things on board.
I mean someone shot himself after killing two passengers. I don't think Murdoch was portrayed negatively. Just a desperate man in a desperate situation
"Let Cunard collect the Blue Ribband" Yeah... they will collect it... because they're the ones with the ships that can do that."
Ismay did not want to arrive on Tuesday evening. Them arriving in the evening then would be equivalent to getting off a flight at midnight and then waiting for your luggage, renting a car or waiting for the bus to take you to your hotel. You want to get to a rest facility with all your belongings as soon as possible so it would be more practical arriving in the morning than in the evening.
William Randolph Hurst deserves to be dishonored for smearing Ismay when both inquiries found him to be not at fault for the sinking of the Titanic. Also, he did not take the place of a woman or child by entering the lifeboat, if he didn't get in then there would have been another fatality in the sinking.
Would they really have been kicked off if they arrived early? I would have thought they'd be allowed to stay on board until the next morning. Elizabeth Lines' recollection of hearing him say "we will beat the Olympic and arrive on Tuesday" (or something to that effect) implying that he didn't consider it a problem -- of course this has been misconstrued to show him *pushing* Smith into arriving earlier, but I think they were just going to arrive earlier without any intervention by Ismay or Smith (i.e. he was stating a fact, not making a demand)
@@CaptainJZHhe was likely making an observation on the titanics performance and not actually telling the captain to do anything. This seems to be a classic case of taking people's words out of context for your own narrative. Plus we know boiler room 1 never got lit up so titanic wasn't going for a speed record.
@@CaptainJZH During Olympic maiden voyage Ismay was asked to pressure captain to push Olympic to the limits and try to arrive ahead of schedule. Ismay stated that he is big fan of that idea but if crew believes it is right thing to do then his personal feelings won't get in their way.
@@vvgr409 I've never heard of that before? Where'd you get that from?
1:49
Smith: Bilbo!? Bilbo Baggins!
Bilbo: (whispers) ...I'm not on the ship!
(Ismay actor is Ian Holm, who played Bilbo in LOTR)
Good as always!
2:01 The guy playing Ismay would be a amazing actor if he was playing as Neville Chamberlain, he looks LITERALLY identical.
In regards to what Ismay says in the 1997 version: Everything else aside (say there were no icebergs), if you knew you wanted headlines for speed, and if you probably knew the engines had to be broken in, or at least asked previously if anything needed to be done to make the fastest speed possible, then you should've had more extensive sea trials beforehand to break the engines in.
You were never going to get speed headlines for Titanic, RMS Mauretania (1906) literally blew everything else out of the water she was a full 7 knots faster and held the blue ribbon record for over 2 decades. They were just trying to prove Titanic wasn`t abysmally slow..she was never a competitor for speed.
@@poiujnbvcxdswq you are right but the plan was it was scheduled to arrive at wednesday but then she wouldve already be there at about tuesday night.
Titanic boiler room 1 wasn't active so it's unlikely that they were trying to beat records. Also during Olympic voyage Ismay was asked to pressure captain to push her to the limits and arrive earlier and he stated that he is not big fan of arriving ahead of schedule. It's pretty unlikely that Ismay tried to pressure captain Smith on Titanic.
I like that little detail that they added in the background in the 1997/2003 Verison
Only ANTR and SOS portrayed Ismay tactfully.
All the rest effectively copied what 1943 did, and threw tact out the window..
Well her maiden voyage certainly made headlines.....
It's interesting that other than the 1943 version (which was made as wartime propaganda) and the 1997 version, in general Ismay isn't portrayed as pressuring Smith to go faster, and in a few versions even seems against it.
Most likely because it was unlikely that Ismay ever tried to pressure captain Smith to increase speed as much as possible. Not only Ismay wasn't big fan of arriving ahead of schedule (during Olympic voyage they also tried to arrive ahead of schedule and Ismay was against that idea) but also boiler room 1 wasn't even active.
2:01 The Captain is giving bad news in a good way (really hope you get the reference)
1:23 The captain played by Harry Andrews made me second guess if that was either Richard Harris! Actually looks more like his son Jared Harris on second viewing.
Bernard Hill 1944 - 2024 RIP
The Olympic class liners were never built to compete for speed. Size and comfort were the selling points.
Titanic 1997 is Greatest 👍✨👏
Interesting Ian holms in the 1979 one... i liked his performs in alien and from hell... British actors have unique delivery even in low pitch tones...
George C Scott played Smith? 😮
R.I.P CAPTAIN SMITH 💐
R.I.P BERNARD HILL
1944 - 2024 😢
Titanic was never going to get headlines for speed, the RMS Mauretania held the record for 2 decades at sustained speed Titanic couldn`t even hit in a sprint.
Mauritania and Lusitania were the greyhounds of the sea and they mostly just traded the Blue Ribband between each other.
I'm glad they finally cut Ismay some slack in the latest Titanic depiction though only to portray Captain Smith as the opportunist.
1943's Ismay couldn't look more evil-looking even if he tried!
Was he played by a Nazi? That could explain it.
So according to the 1979 film it was actually the captain who didn't want to slow down and not Ismay!
Despite the fact that 1997 movie portrayed Ismay as asshole who pressured captain Smith to increase speed as much as possible that probably wasn't the case. This scene is based on account of first class passenger Elizabeth Lines who heard conversation between Ismay and Smith. Ismay stated something like "Everything is going well, we will beat Olympic and arrive in New York on Tuesday" which is portrayed in this movie as pressure to captain Smith to try beat Olympic. In fact Ismay words were not pressure but simple observation. In fact during Olympic voyage there was also discussion about arriving ahead of schedule and Ismay not only stated that he is not big fan of this idea but also stated that his personal feelings won't get in a crew way. So real Ismay was unlikely to want to try beating records or pressure crew to do whatever he wants.
You might also ask "then why they were going with near full speed at the night" and the answer is pretty simple - that was actually standard practice in that time. In 1912 you couldn't cross Atlantic in a plane in few hours and ocean liners were the only way of crossing ocean. People expected them to be as fast as possible. Cargo ships or smaller ships could afford to stay at night but big ocean liners were expected to be fast and that required them to going with near full speed day and night. Lookouts were supposed to spot obstacles in advance to let ship avoid it. During Titanic voyage conditions on the Atlanic were unusual, ocean was very calm and there was moonless night. That and few other things reduced Titanic lookout visibility and they spotted ice berg too late to avoid it.
2:11 why is captain smith American
Yeah, no. They were not trying to break any record, or even go full speed. One of the boiler rooms was unlit the whole trip.
RIP Bernard Hill
I also like the 1958 version of Fabrizio
The first one, WOW, bro is actually bribing him……!!!!!!!!
It was made by the Third Reich, commissioned by Goebbels himself, to show how bad Capitalism is that it lead to the disaster to make National Socialism look better
1996 did Ismay dirty
Next: The band plays the final song
This is still talked today. What Elizabeth lines heard. What she heard is exactly portrayed in Titanic 1997 and ghost of the abyss.
"WE WILL BEAT THE OLYMPIC AND GET INTO NEW YORK ON TUESDAY NIGHT".
That sounds like complacent and arrogant with regard to safety. So Ismay should have been thinking much more about safety than pleasure. Including Captain Smith, he should disregarded Ismay"s remark.
Tbf, it doesn't seem like he was demanding that they beat Olympic's time, but rather that he was making an observation that they were probably going to do that anyway at the speed they were going (in which case Smith could have probably afforded to slow down to at least 3/4 speed and still made good time)
I had no idea there're so many Tinatic movies aside from 1958 and 1997 versions.
The German versions of Captain Smith and Mr Ismay looked nothing like the real people. I mean there were a lot characters from all of the Titanic adaptations that didn't really look like their real life inspirations but its those two specifically that always stick out to me.
Poor Ismay. I don't think he deserved being vaillainized as much as he was
I love George C. Scott but his lack of english accent is a hindrance!
1979 ....is that the queen mary?
Yeah, it is
@@1991sth no that's the SS Poseidon!
Yes. As one who had a plastic model kit of the Queen Mary, it's really distracting in a movie that's supposed to be about the Titanic.
@@gregorymoore2877 indeed. SOS Titanic had a great script though.
The fact that the woman next to Ismay in 1997s Titanic is Elizabeth Lines, we can see she looks at them in a second.
What’s crazy is the 2003 Ghosts of the abyss portrayal of Ismay is historian/painter of Titanic Ken Marschall
The National Socialist Titanic never fails to make everyone look awful.
Well yeah it's Nazi propaganda. Of course it's gonna make the British bad. That was the point....
They spent so much money on it also.
That was the idea. It was propaganda made during the war.
@@ChrisCooper312 I know
Except the German (fictional) first officer.
You didn’t include the Thumbtanic scene
General patton and his not very clear English accent.
Did Bruce Ismay Really make The Titanic Go Faster Beyond Its Limit To Get To New York A Day Early?
It's unlikely that Ismay ever tried to pressure captain Smith to arrive ahead of schedule.
@@vvgr409 how do you know that?
Honestly the old versions of Titanic look so cheap and cheesy
Arrogant men sank the titanic. The iceberg did nothing wrong.