I've been giving this more thought. My G-wagen, which was the best off-road truck I ever owned, rode on skinnies. I don't think I ever got stuck with that thing. My Land Cruiser 105 did not have skinnies, but I loved that truck, but it was no match off-road, but was brilliant on the long, hard expedition. This is an experiment. I will be able to fit a wider tyre next year if I feel there are not right for the Troopy. If my decision was the wrong one, I will say so. I don't mind being wrong. One thing is for sure - it will look odd with the skinnies on the Troopy. But I am not going for looks. If I was, we would not be having this discussion.
Personally I couldn't care less about a certain look. But what I do care about is my trucks total weight VS the contact patch. That; along with the specific type of terrain I will be seeing. Ground PSI is all that really matters, along with the variable range of ground PSI with tire pressures. With my 37x12.50's I know I can cut my ground PSI by 44% by dropping down to 10-15 PSI in my tires. And for those times when you need to cut down to a solid bottom I can increase the ground PSI by 20% by increasing Tire PSI by 13lbs (over nominal). So it really all depends on curb weight VS tire size VS terrain....... (setting aside tread composition and arraignment) In my opinion; a off road tire should be sized to where is can be aired down and have a Low ground PSI (flotation) and yet narrow enough to be aired up to increase Ground PSI and cut through a mucky top layer to reach a solid bottom.
go and watch all the Camel Trophy clips on youtube they all run skinny's is amazing some of the mud they get through i run BFG KM2 Mud-Terrain LT255/85R16 or in inches 33.8 x 10.6 wide.
Many thanks for the time and effort you put into these videos! I run 255/85r16s on my 1983 G Wagen with 6 1/4 inch rims (Yes a rather odd size but they were widened by a prior owner :-) ) Gives the best of both worlds for the long hauls and the ruff stuff off-road.
I remember when growing up in the Namib desert that all the younger people had fat wide tyres while all the older people had skinny tyres and I don’t know the reason if it was tyres or the years of driving on sand but the old guys never got stuck and it was quite common for us youngsters.
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For years and years I swore by 7.50r16s on assorted Land Cruisers. Never got stuck in sand, hardly ever had punctures, performance on rocks excellent, a little squirrelly on gravel roads at speed. I also observed the phenomenon that when I let them down, they went long, and that made all the difference in sand.
Andrew. You're absolutely killing it! Great work. The old school footage you rolled at the end was awesome, please find some more opportunities in future videos to incorporate similar clips. Maybe even a throwback series could be in the cards if you have enough footage! Can't wait to see how to build turns out
You definitely have a different way of looking at it than most American off-roaders. From what I’ve seen most of us here have the same philosophy: larger diameter tires will have an easier time rolling over larger obstacles, wider tires provide more mechanical grip because of the larger contact patch. Combine the extra height and width, and it allows you to have an even larger track when you air down. The obvious drawbacks are more unsprung weight and less weight on the tire (by which I mean less PSI exerted on the ground because the vehicle weight it the same but the contact patch is significantly larger). In some scenarios such as ice skinner tires absolutely perform better because you don’t get the tendency to float, but much of that effect can be minimized by tire pressure I run a 2nd gen xterra on 285/75/17 duratracs and the thing has been unstoppable (even with open diffs) in everything from Moab rock, the steep loose rock trails of Colorado and it’s rescued several modified jeeps running narrower tires in the narrow muddy trails of New England!
I have a 2015 xterra with the same exact tire and size. I think the dutatracs are too loud and inefficient on pavement. I don't like the way the Xterra drives with them on. I bought it with them on it already. Great off road...im going to BFG all terrain KO2S when these wear out.
WRC rally cars run tall skinny rim/tyres on muddy tracks as the thought is they can dig down to where the hard base is. Australian traffic laws are shit too, hard to run 35" or bigger legally.
I always used 235/85x16 tires on my series Land Rovers and older Ford pickups, and I thought it was a great size. I love the stock steelies on the troopy; no on'es going to steal them because they're flashy.
I had tall skinny 750R16's on my 94 Samurai and they were awesome. Most my mates went for 31's and a few 33's which were much wider. Looked cool, but they all used to get stuck on wet grass! Only place they were better off was on sand (of which there is not much in the UK) and they were worse in mud (of which there is plenty).
Speaking as a very old off-roader and logger from B>C> Canada, tires are far more important than most know. In the old days, we went with tall and narrow, the reason being dig deep enough and you will get to good ground. The truth over the years proved that once you hit your undercarriage your stuck. What is best is a wide aggressive tread that provides as much flotation as possible. EG: A bulldozer in sand, snow or mud is best with a wide track, a snowmobile uses the same principle, as does a pair of snowshoes. A wide tread gives you needed large footprint before lowering air pressure and maintains diff clearance. you can still lower air pressure and gain an even bigger footprint
I have had both of these exact tires (make, model, and sizes) on my 4x4 pickup truck. I hunt with it in the deserts of southern Utah (very similar to Australian landscapes) 6 months a year. Many, many offroad miles logged. Of the two tires, the skinny absolutely kick ass over the wide! The only thing the wide handles better is dry, fluffy sand (and they are only marginally better at that because the sand we have here will eventually beat them both). The skinnies do better in mud, rocks, snow, and gravel. Plus, they give better highway mpg, and accelerate noticeably faster! Skinnies only for me from here on out!
Thank you sir. Acceleration is faster because there is less inertia to overcome when pulling off or accelerating, and braking. Its one of the main reasons why wide tyres and city driving consumes more fuel.
I too am a huge fan of the 235/85/r16. I would love to have a dollar for every time I have been told that it is too skinny or not tall enough. I would like to have a 5 spot for everytime at the end of the trail I am right there with the big dogs... In fact the place they give me the most grief is in the sand where the narrow tire is a champ. Not only will the KO2 let down to low pressures but they knife thru the sand with great easy and if i am lucky enough to follow someone and ride in their wide tracks they have bulled there way through I dont even have to stear. I just follow on the compacted sand with little to no resistance. Good Choice in the KO2 btw, what a great tire, even if i am not sponsered by them!!!
@@blacktailbowhunter0135 Hey! Im about to get new tires, and im really considering the 235 85 r16 skinnies. My only question is how is the road performance. I have bfg's ko2 on 245/70 r16 and they do perform good in the road, but offroad they don't perform as good as I'd like. I hope you can answer Thanks!
@@tomasbruna3972 Second to none. You get better mpg and better hydroplane resistance in rain and slushy snow. Off-road traction is wonderful if you need to dig to find solid ground. Obviously if your going through bottomless mud or sand your going to want a wider tire to keep you floating but I wouldn’t trade my pizza cutters for anything. You either love them or hate them. I came from a 265/70r16 which were dangerous in the wet westcoast rain I get. Hydroplaning on every puddle and corner. I then went to a 235/85r16 and have never looked back. I run them on my 3500 dually as well as my toyota pickup. Ive run the cooper m+s with studs in winter and the bfg km2 mud terrain in the summer on my toyota. I had kumho at51 on my dually. The kumhos are an amazing all around tire , they outperform the bfg ko2 by far at least in the conditions have tested them in. I guess what Im trying to say is get the 235/85r16 and don’t look back. Just make sure whatever vehicle your putting then on has the extra clearance for a slightly taller tire. My bfg measures a true 32.5” tall and a true 7.5” tread width with an overall sidewall width of 9.5”.
@@blacktailbowhunter0135 Awesome answer! I was considering 265/75r16 but I also read that the weight could be too much for my truck. I think i'll get the 235's, with the right tire pressure im sure they'll roll through anything Thank's
In my last vehicle, a '97 Prado (Colorado over here) LWB, i brought it with the widest tyres that could be put on her. When i changed the tyres i opted to go for extra height/clearance and had therefore to choose a much narrower tyre. This is just my experience in one car, but i found the handling in the mud far better. I've never got bogged on either tyre, but i found with narrower tyre getting out of ruts to avoid the really gloopy stuff much easier and in general i seemed to have more directional control when things got slippy.
A good sensible choice. Many 4wds in WA are fitted with 285s with looks surely being the number one reason. Yeah there are a handful of tracks here that require bigger tyres but for vast majority of off road terrain these are overkill. Corrugations, sand, rocky overgrown tracks are the norm . I have always felt the skinnies are better for what we have here. Ive yet to see anything to convince me a wider tyre is better in soft sand as is the common belief. With the standard split 7.50 r16 pressure down I have yet to come unstuck and believe me Ive tried. It is easier to maneuver around stakes or sharp rocks etc whereas a 285 is much more likely to pick up a mulga stake. Less wear and tear on the vehicle as the vehicle has less tyre to turn is also a benefit. All this can only increase reliability which over here in the West is paramount.
Lol, so true. My 04 Grand Cherokee runs 235/85-16's on JK steelies, took a 2" lift and a bit of trimming to get them to fit. Vari-loks front and rear, it goes dam near everywhere.
In my technical training college we performed a test to compare wide verses narrow tyre by inking the tread and lowering the tyre back down on paper, the surface area of the narrow tyre had a larger surface area and specifically in longitudinal direction, the wider tyre of course had more traction in the transverse direction, which of course meant the narrow tyre gave better accelerating and braking performance and the wide tyre only gave better cornering performance. Unfortunately once you go past 33” 4wd tyres you can not get narrow tyres.
Simex Extreme Trekker actually come in 35 x 10.50 on 15 or 16 inch rims. They're generally only suited for competition vehicles. Don't know of any others though
Drove around in the Canning Basin (Great Sandy Desert) in single cab land cruisers with skinnys for three months. The only vehicles that ever got bogged had fat tyres. Consensus among team was the scallops on sidewall helped pull-crawl through sand on the top of the dunes when you finally got forced down to the lower gears after the run-up. Remember leaning out window watching the tyres digging in and working like a slow motion paddleboat. There were some big dunes. Skinnies every time.
6:38 I have beat a rim back into shape, on the trail. I always carry a ball peen (16 oz, or so), but a hatchet poll would work just as well. To clarify, I threw the spare on and then hammered the bent rim back into shape. A little air and I had a usable spare, again. The rim is still in use today and that's enough for me.
Yeah I was about to bring up that point. I would have to imagine the 285 out performs the smaller tyre. Still Andrew brings up some great points about tyre and wheel weight. Bigger tyres have a bigger chance of breaking driveline components, use more fuel, reduce suspension effectiveness, can require regearing and fender mods and they cost more. All these downsides you live with for 99% of the time, to gain an advantage 1% of the time. I think there's a lot to be said about going for a conservative tyre size.
Bigger diameter almost always outperforms smaller diameter but comes with many drawbacks like you say. But what's good about skinnys is that they make a long, narrow footprint when aired down which gives good flotation on sand while saving a lot in fuel and not needing as much power. Width is only there to provide better stability on the road, the highest profile is always the best off road.
actually @ a given pressure both tyres will have the same contact patch (ie Force = Pressure x Area) however the wider tyre will offer more resistance to forward movement in sand because of the width. like what JP O says. But hey those big fat treads look so sexy eh.
Soooo pleased to have come across your posts, enjoying them a lot. I know I'm late, but your posts are still valid and still look very fresh. I love the look of big fat tyres on alloys, especially on a Chelsea Tractor. In the various Middle Eastern countries that I've driven I kinda liked the impression of 'extra floatation' in soft sand. For real 'all terrain' I used 'skinnies', decision arrived at by looking at Brit military use. Thousands upon thousands of Landies, S1, S2, S3, 101, 110, 130. Thousands of drivers with 'varied' skill sets, millions of hard miles, all multiplied by 70 years of experience with Landies alone, every terrain on earth. What do they chose? Some say the cheapest but it's simply not true. They are generally skinnier than is popular today on steel rims. Alloy or steel, I've beaten out a few steels to 'get home' but if it's gone that badly the Tyre isn't getting you home so the answer is simply 2 x spares. (Do love the look of alloy though,,,, shineyyyyy,,,,, oops went off on one there.) Would love to attach pics of Africa, ME etc, still trying to work out how. Thanks again, Mike
We use the BFG AT 235/85/16 on the Land Cruiser 70, 100 and 200 series. All if them are heavier as they're armored. It works well and we don't have to stock different sizes for different vehicles. On my personal Hilux i use 31/10.5/15 as i can get spares in any tyre shop from here to Mongolia or turn left towards Africa. Just dont go weird on suspension or tyre mods.
My advice: stick to the factory size. All the ratio's and components of the driveline are calculated and designed by superb engineers to make a tyre with these specified dimensions role as efficient as possible. Bigger, wider and thus heavier wheels will put more stress on the driveline and will use more energy. Cheers
100% agree with you suggestions Sir. Smaller wheels and alloys everyday. But the big 35 inch mud tires look just so badass. 😜 and terrible for over landing and everyday use.
Just google the Bush Tucker man Les Hiddins! He travelled to places most Australians will never get to see, cataloging bush tucker for the Australian army across the harsh top end. All in an army land rover on skinny tyres and steel rims. Next time you're in a country town, check out all the graziers landcruiser utes, skinny tyres and steel rims. Cheers
100% Les Hiddins specified Goodyear Custom Xtra-Grip cross ply skinny tyres in 12 ply on his overland utility vehicles. NB : The Army 10 ply rated radial Olympic Steeltreks were the worst tyre on the planet for cross-country and overland use.
235/85r16 vs 265/75r16 255/85r16 vs 285/75r16 (assume same height as wide tyre) Skinny pros 1, cut through mud, create a groove does not slide around 2, less rolling resistance on sand 3, better fc 4, less strain on tie rod, bearing 5, grip better on loose gravel (higher contact pressure) Skinny cons (assume same height as wider) 1, less stable when cornering 2, braking distance longer Debate for rock crawling skinny or wider is better?
I will only run steel wheels on my vehicle. Never owned an alloy wheel in 50 years and don't want any ever. run a 1999 silverado 2500 4x4. eaton locker 4.10 gears 6L engine E80 trans. firm ride suspension, camper/towing/skid plates. 265 75 16 BFG all terrain Ko2 tires and carry a thousand pound four wheel brand pop up camper all the time. Love the truck and the tires. Have a whopping 40 thousand miles on it but now that its my daily driver as well the mileage will be going up. Nice video. did have the tire store straighten the american spoker wheel bent rim on my fj40. ran all terrain on that with 30 inch tires. sold the land cruiser for twice what I paid for it before buying the truck new. Loved the all terrains on the old fj40 as well .
I've done the Canning some years in a rodeo 3.2 petrol, running Cooper St 235x85x16 they went well no problems, sandhills were a breeze, because of that long footprint, my mate was running a troopy with fatter tyres he got stuck on a number of sandhills
I've repaired a steel rim on 4x4 Hilux in the bush myself (And not just a small love tap) I'll all ways use steel rim. And at go's back from my rally days !!
If people commenting that a certain size is best would take some time & actually watch Andrew's videos, you'll realise he's building the truck very specifically using knowledge gained from more years of experience in this field than any of us. This isn't a vehicle being fitted with a 3" lift & 35" tyres to look good & a hope that will allow it to go everywhere you could imagine from looking at videos on here. Skinny 32" tyres are perfect for long range overlanding & still have good capabilities in the rough stuff so are ideal for this vehicle. I'd say stick with steel rims for the Canning though, as there's a definite possibility of rim damage from rogue rocks on the track. People have smashed Alloy rims on the Oodnadatta Track on the way to the Simpson so on a lesser used track I'd definitely stick with the steels just for the last ditch option of throwing a tube into one if it's bent out of shape.
Andrew. With the amount of rock we drive on and around, bending a rim lip happens a lot more here. I like steel because of that. If I was running in sandy Oz or Africa ( yes I know there are rocks there too), I could feel safe on Alloy.
I recently equipped my LJ with much wider and taller tires and have had pretty good luck so far. The vehicle only weighs roughly 1700kg and is very good at floating across sand and snow and doesn't seem to be bothered too much by the added weight but I do notice a difference. On the plus side, the bigger tires (KO2) were actually cheaper than if I had gone with a narrower but equally tall tire size. Finally, I took a note from your previous experiences in Africa and ordered a rather common size for my area, 33x12.5. Cheers.
Onya Andrew… good choice. 235’s & wolf rims are where it’s at for Defenders, and for good reason… same applies for Troopies. An expedition (or overland) vehicle is what it is… for long term self sufficient travelling where economy, reliability and dependability are paramount. Taller tyres mess with gear ratios and extra strain on the drivetrain, clutch…etc… not something you want in the back of your mind on a tour, and modifying components to suit those tyres is just another added expense. The rule of keeping it simple works wonders. 235’s are a better tyre of choice because of their strength and versatility in ever changing terrain. Other benefits of being able to source & carry gutsy inner tubes as an extra measure for tyre repairs come to mind too. But in the end…. whatever size tyre, vehicle, or modifications people have, it really all boils down to what sits behind the steering wheel.
Gday, late to the party… Anyway I’ve been running Coopers st maxx 255/85r16 LT’s ( about 34”, regarded as tall & skinny) on my Patrol for about 3 yrs now. They’re terrific. Can’t fault them as a working tyre on any surface. I got them to try to deal with corrogated dirt roads better than 235/85r16’s or the standard 265/70r16’s. Depending on load & conditions I’ll go down to 22-26 psi. They soak it up much better than other tyres I’ve tried. Only two issues, they mess with the gearing in 2H or 4H. Low range, no issues. Towing a heavy load I only do in 4th anyway so they help there too. Second, they’re not common. I’ve been lucky and not damaged them but if I had to get one in kal or Karratha I’d have to wait. I have two spares so hopefully I’ve mitigated that for all but remote area travel.
Switched from 35’s to pizza cutters: Yokohama Geolandar X-AT LT 235/80/17. Unmatched on- and offroad and better fuel economy and less strain on the drive train
Mates and I did a local trip which involves some beach driving. After a long day we headed back to the camp with seasprayed windscreens at about 50klm per hour. Then the shit his the fan an we were Airbourne. Nobody saw the big rocks sticking out like dog balls. The guy with 7.50 x16 and split rims had no visible damage but the other guy with wide steelies on badly dinted every. run. A good hit with the axe and good as gold. I stuck with 235/85/16 on tubeless 6.5 rims. Shit in mud..good on bitmen and especially deflated on sand. 12 psi
I have a HZJ75 (also a Troopy). I did managed to repair a rim once on the track. At the time I had 35" tires, steel 10 inch sunny rims. We were away for a weekend. I had already staked a tire so I had already used my one spare. I then clipped what turned out to be a brick the same color as the sandy 2 tire track we were all traveling along (more like belting along - it had been raining so no or little dust). The brick dented the inside of the rim just enough to make the bead leak. I would normally just change the wheel and worry about it later, but I had already used my one spare. No-one had a spare that was compatible with my cruiser (wrong stud pattern or tire too small), so I had to fix it. A few attempts at hammering it roughly back into place and she finally stopped leaking. It was a front tire and it rode a bit funny, but at the time it wasn't so bad that it required changing with one of the back wheels. As it happened, on the road on the trip home the next day I did find that the wobble was a lot more noticeable, so I did change it for one on the back. Now I do a lot more rock climbing and mud work so I run 37" tires on 10" rims, but I also now always carry a second spare wheel. My Troopy is no longer a daily driver (37" tires, body and spring lifts, 4" long anti inversion hangers, auto lockers, lots of bar work etc, all go to make it an interesting drive on the road. As far as tires go, I have to respectfully disagree with you (to a point). I run 13.5" wide and 37" tall, but still on 15" rims, so I have PLENTY of side wall. Its really good in the sand. My footprint when I let the tires right down is HUGE! Even with very aggressive MT tread, I just float over sand. I do however need to put a lower set of gears in the transfer box (low range is not very low any more). My tired old 1HZ from 88 does struggle quite a lot in the sand. I dont believe its ever had the head off and its done 480K - it used to be a pilot vehicle doing long trips back and forth to WA and the eastern states.
There is a video somewhere out there on the net where they compare skinny tires vs. wide tires in a wide variety of environments. I can't remember where I saw it but the end result was skinny or tires outperformed the wide tires in almost every instance except for rock crawling.
I have a defender 130 DC flat deck. I use the factory HD Wolf steel rims with BFG 255-85-16 KM II. I cannot remember the last time i got stuck or punctured a tyre. I tried the 285-75-16 on fat defender alloys and disliked them immensly. They weren't as tall as the 255 tyres so dragged the diffs and really skated around on wet dirt to the point where a failed climb had me skating sideways down the hill with zero control. They also widened the wheell track and caused lots of bump steer in ruts,hopeless. fat wheels off and back to tall skinnier tyres. Just a short note about my experience.
Being in the States, I went with 255/85/16 tires instead of the more popular 285/75/16 tires on my Nissan Xterra. Though one could argue the ones I went with are slightly taller, I really made the decision because they're narrower. Not having the opportunity to test them side by side in a scientifically, I thought narrower tires might bet getter gas mileage on the highway and have a longer contact patch off-road. My Cooper Discoverer ST Maxx tires have been great so far in the skinnier dimension, even after asking a lot from them on and off road.
In comparison to skinny tall tubed tires on my father’s 70s Toyota and GM pickup trucks, to todays nicely treaded big radial AT and MT tires, there’s drastic difference in on and off road performance. Wider tires with tall sidewalls, allow you to run on lesser air pressure for pavement use, while minimizing the side to side flex on turns, improving road handling, and soaking up the surface imperfections nicely, resulting in a comfortable ride and reducing the forces and vibrations on suspension components, while retaining or enhancing the off roadability. About 2 decades ago, 12.5x33 tires seemed to be the pinnacle (of looks and performance) of aftermarket off road builds in the North American off-road market but now the 37s have seemed to surpass the ideal 35s. Of course, the bigger tires cost more, burn more fuel, are heavier, noisier, aren’t easily available in the remote areas, not all vehicle wheel wells and axles can take them (cheaply), but they definitely make the difficult terrain look easy. In my experience, the 285/70or75R17 is a very practical tire for most on and off road driving conditions, it doesn’t cost much to buy and to fit on most 4x4 vehicles with slight modifications, and these days they could also be found as stock tires on off road dedicated factory variants, and isn’t a rare specie to be found only in certain parts of the world. In the past, 15 & 16 inch diameter wheels were considered ideal but as the disc brakes have increased in size and stopping power, their utility is far greater than smaller brakes, hence a bit larger 17 & 18 inch wheels are acceptable essentials, with a bit bigger and wider tires. Once you get over and through that obstacle, the humming noise of bigger off-road tires becomes assurance music to ears.
Big fat wide tyres are only for making the "rig" the tough look.....235/85R16 tyres are about the same size as 7.50x16, available everywhere in remote locations as 235/85R16 or 7.50x16 is a standard size fitment for most vehicles that farms and government vehicles, so finding a tyre is easy. 235/85R16 or 7.50x16 tyres do perform very well, just look at the Camel Trophy Defender Years and see the mud they drove through.
I really think tyre choice can only be considered when terrain choice is factored in. Sandy, rocky, loose dry go wide. Muddy, snowy go thin. Weight is a consideration, but not what you are thinking, I have BF Goodrich Mud-Terrain T/A's in 265/75R16 on steel rims on my Rover, Those are a son of a ******* to take off and put back on by myself when changing brake pads and such. I've et my Wheaties and am not a weak guy, just getting older at 66!
Yesterday i bougth 235 85 16 for my Landcruiser 75...I wanted 33x12.5 for the look...but at the end steering would have sucked...Skinnies it is...and it s perfect...
I have 235/85 on 8 inch rims. It can make it a little tricky to seat the bead on the rim but they fit, not tried airing down yet to see if they tend to come off the rim, will have to see. We had a vehicle on steel rims hit a washout and bend the wheel into a U shape, we hammered it back inot shape with a lump hammer, so thats one person done a field repair for you!! IN fairness though, with a deep tyre like a 235/85 I think the tyre probably cushions the rim well enough it shouldn't be an issue
I run 225/75 16 on my Disco 1 here in Canada for the winter vs the stock 235/70 16 size I run in the summer. Winter tires are General Grabber Artic LT. Fantastic tire so far (first winter on them). My reasoning for the more narrow tire in winter is to load the contact patch more and dig down through the loose snow to the hard pack for traction (tires set to 40 psi for all around winter driving). I think the same logic could apply for summer over landing with the exception of tire pressure for obvious reasons. Sand will pose the question of, will the more narrow tire that is aired down, provide the same flotation as a wider tire while keeping the benifit of the narrow tire at higher pressure on more solid surface? I have limited sand driving experience. Also, as far as mud and snow go, the narrow tire can provide both the benifit of digging down to a more solid surface if the condition dictates as well as airing down to float on top if the condition is more favorable for that approach. my 2 cents :) Cheers
Absolute correct - this is the best for an overlander. I had the same question for my DEFENDER - at the end 235/85R16 BFG are the best balance between all you need for overlanding. 7J is also the best rim - DOTZ DAKAR would be a choice here in EU....
I like the way skinnier tyres look. hope they work out well for you! I suppose it mainly has to do with what terrain you're traveling on. Where I live, it's quite snowy and muddy, making wider tyres a better choice for me.
Here's my take. I had a Landcruiser tray-back ute, fitted with a steel enclosed box in the back and also able to store stuff on the top too. I went to Fraser Island with so much weight that the skinny 8 ply steel treads were at 45psi and had a bulge already. It was a newish rebuilt petrol motor so not some worn out donk, and it struggled on any hill on the way there due to the weight. I let the front down to 35 psi and left the rear at 45psi when we got to Inskip. Three of us and everything for two weeks camping. We had to drive around three others who got stuck in the soft sand off the barge. Fought our way through soft sand due to high tide all the way to Orchid beach. Even up Indian head no probs. This was also before there were cops, rangers and wooden tracks. This was when men were men, women got married in white to match the appliances and knew there place, and, and, we drove half pissed on the beach, with I might add, no fucking seatbelt, and previous to having all the fruit hanging off new fourbies these days. We had no choice with tides, but low tide would have been sweet. That trip sold me on skinny tyres for sand driving especially. I have wide tyres on my latest fourbie and as yet haven't hit the sand, but I am a bit suss they won't be great. I bought it with them on, so that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it. Anyway guys, crack a fat, I mean a beer, and keep on keeping on.
So it’s all about compromise. He’s planning an over lander across australia which involves a lot of pavement, hard packed rutted roads, sand, mud. He is not planning to go hardcore rock crawling or ice fishing. He has other vids that goes into a little more in depth about tire size, tire pressure, etc. on my 2010 daily driver FJ I roll on BFG 265 75R16 AT KO2. 90% pavement, 5% light to moderate off road and 5% severe in varying terrain just to get from point A to point B without worrying about getting stuck or having to air down. A capable vehicle needs capable tires driven by a capable driver who is highly aware of the limitations of his skill and his vehicle. I’ve done the rubicon and Ouray. and Moab and through severe winter weather in northern Nevada and California and it’s always been the combination of driver, veh, and tires that have always brought me home safe. And unscathed, except after the rubicon trail in 1996 hahhahaha. my CJ 7 soft top got obliterated by an angry tree branch.
I want 235/85r16 on my pathfinder so badly! Yesterday the shop finished lifting the body close to 2” and now I just have to figure out what 16” rim will make them fit. Excited about it!
I base my tire selection on the type of off roading that I will be doing most of the time. In your case I would go with the wider tire. Reason being is from what I have seen in Australia there is a lot of sand, wider tires offer more of a floatation on sand at lower psi. A narrow tire even at a low psi will still dig into the sand leaving you stuck. Just my opinion.
235 85R16, thats a stock defender size, yes, they are excellent, or 16x7.50, perfect on 6.5inch rims. I have done overland with 300kg on my roof and fully loaded, no problem at all.
It depends where you are, and your 4x4 approach. Even here in the Pacific Northwest, where skinnies cut through mud and snow to solid ground, there are those with very light 4x4s who take the high flotation approach. A dedicated desert runner wants low pressure balloons and avoids aggressive tread. Where I live, 255/85R16s with very aggressive tread suits our off highway rigs. If you run a lot of highway and don't change tires between summer and winter, then All Terrain is your compromise.
Aluminum is the best for road cuz it's hard and solid but for offroading the steel is the best ,when offroading it means we gonna push the vehicle and it's parts to the limit and the alloy when it face a rock at a hight speed it would crack but steel would have a certain deformation that you can easily repair with a hammer and continue your journey
so, is there an update on this? I am choosing between 33" 255 or 285 for my discovery. Everyone goes for the 285s but i think the 255 will be just as capable and much kinder to the drive train and the fuel economy...
The old fat or skinny can of worms! Choice of tyre size depends on the load to be carried, the terrain, and partly on the engine power/torque. Then there is the inflation pressure for on and off-road. I'm restricting this discussion to 4x4 vehicles and LT (light truck) tyres, a tyre type designated by the TRA (tire and rim association, which is the association of USA tyre manufacturers). Rolling resistance generally increases with tyre width. Because of this low powered 4x4's, e.g. Toyota 1HZ, can struggle with wide tyres. In sand however the rolling resistance also depends largely on the depth and slope of the sand formed in front of the tyres which is a function of the soil strength, the tyre diameter and width and the vertical deflection of the tyre sidewall height. The US military have conducted the most work to determine the mobility of vehicles in different types of terrain. Their research started after the second world war and hasn't ceased. The early work, VCI (vehicle cone index), concentrated on fine loam soils, but was supeceded by NRMM (nato reference mobility model), which is now in version 2. NRMM II covers five different terrains, hard sufaces, fine grained soils (e.g. mud), coarse grained soils (e.g. sand), Muskeg (or peat bog), and snow. It covers vehicle with powered and un-powered tyres, as well as tracked vehicles. For powered tyres NRMM II finds what it calls "drawbar pull", the term based upon validation performed by measuring the load that can be pulled. This is the sum of available traction less rolling resistance. For un-powered tyres rolling resistace is found. Leading up to "Desert Storm", the war in Iraq, they increased testing of NRMM II in the types of sandy terrain in Iraq. The predictions and results of extensive tests showed good correlation in sand. Mobility in sand increases when: a) Tyre diameter is increased b) Tyre width is increased c) Sidewall vertical deflection is increased, i.e. lower inflation pressure In sand, comparing tyre sizes 235/85 R16 to 285/75 R16, when both are inflated to achieve the same sidewall vertical deflection as a percentage of sidewall height, the larger tyre will provide better mobility. Comparing 235/85 R16 to 265/75 R16 tyres, which are close enough to the same diameter, the wider tyre will provide better mobility. Footprint area. As inflation pressure is reduced, the length of the footprint increases, and the width only increases slightly. For the same sidewall vertical deflection the footprint length is greater for larger diameter tyres. The vertical stiffness (load divided by deflection) of a tyre is a function of the effective volume of air in the tyre and its inflation pressure. Increasing, either or both, the diameter or width, increases the effective volume of air. For on road, the load capacity stipulated for a tyre is the load that will create a vertical deflection of the sidewall of approximately 12.5% of the sidewall height. The rated load capacity and inflation pressure is marked on the sidewall. In Australia the vehicle manufacturer must provide a placard with the tyre details and inflation pressure to suit the load carried, and again it is related to the tyre vertical stiffness and sidewall vertical deflection. When larger tyres are fitted, the inflation pressure needs to be lowered to achieve the same vertical deflection, as a percentage of the sidewall height. When larger tyres are "aired down" off-road, they need a lower inflation pressure to achieve the same sidewall vertical deflection. The typical blanket statement to lower pressure to xx psi or x.x bar, is not a good guide when tyre sizes (stiffness) and loads can vary as much as they do.
I can speak of personal experience. I have a Nissan patrol pickup which sometimes doubles up as a tractor which I use to make roads an fire paths on a Kalahari farm. I tow tree super single truck tires stuck together with an tractor tire on top for weight in software sand dunes extra. The 285 tires performed brilliant in this application were as the 235 tires I would have to murder the vehicle and would still get stuck. The floatation on the skinny tires just cannot compare were as the wider tires I don't even put it into 4x4 most of the times. The feul economy on road is better with the skinny tires but are worse in sand as the tires cut into the sand as to the bigger tires that floats on-top. The 285 also gives an beter ride on rough services and the vehicle is much more stable as the 235 tires the vehicle will wonder about on dirt roads. Power is down on open road with the 285 but performance is better in sand. So it comes down to what you want to do with the vehicle.
I had: 1988 Range Rover with 205 wide tires (locking differential) 1999 Range Rover with 255 wide tires (some weird 4x4 non locking differential) * The 1988 could not be stopped in the Colorado Mountains with snow. * The 1999 constantly sat on top of the snow and spun its wheels in Michigan snow.
I find that having a 235/85-16 spare (and/or trailer tires) along with 265/75-16 on all four corners makes for a good combination and both sizes are easy to find (at least in North and South America) :)
Andrew with laiden troopys an tray backs go with the wider tyres an offset rim on the rear as troopys are narrower at the rear .33inch are a perfect size an let down it will have biger foot print than wat u have decided on rim size 8x15 or 16 inch desert rat rims I run troopys as bush taxis an for many years we tried alloy rims in the harsh arnham land roads alloy rims heat up an the nuts come lose an with 12 people an trailer baggage steel is real .hammer a few kms in the NT with me .on the other side I understand your tyer choice an the fact why an maybe your not driving to times an appointments as we did in Arnhem land /qld/SA/Wa .33s stand up well an will give your troopy the stability it needs love your show great to see you hear in Australia
The only disadvantage to skinnies that I have experienced in the last couple of months after switching from 285/65R17's to 235/85R16's is that offroad stability is reduced as a consequence of the narrower stance of the vehicle. This obviously depends on what offset rim you run and if you use spacers, but I was struggling to find rims with an offset greater than -18 for the new tyres (KO2) for my Landcruiser HJ75. The sketchy factor when the car is on an awkward angle has increased and is noticeable in the cab, it seems to start tipping a lower angle. This makes sense to me because the centre of gravity is now closer to the edge of the contact patch. My first car was a Series 3 Land Rover with 235/85R16's, but this problem was never noticeable because the centre of gravity on that thing was so low. Having said that, I agree with your argument for skinny tyres Andrew, I love them. Improvements to the 'weight' and 'feel' of the steering were enough of a bonus!
Yes, its counter intuitive but a long skinny tyre footprint is usually ( note: the word usually, which means not all the time) is better in sand than a wide footprint. If you are driving in soft coastal tracks and have wide tyres you better have a good power to weight ratio to overcome the sand drag on the edges of the wheel ruts that you are invariably driving in. The narrower tyre will run quiet easily along the middle of the wheel rut where the sand is compacted. Think about it.
as someone who has had both really wide tyres and quite skinny tyres, i have found that it all comes down to personal preference as i didn't notice a huge difference, just go with what you think will be the best, i personally like wider tyres just because they look nicer on 4wds
Tyre choice is very much terrain dependent. I have lived in South Africa and travelled on rough gravel roads, soft Mozambique sand and the rugged Lesotho Mountains. I spent a few years living in the Okavango in Botswana churning through water and mud, a few years in Abu Dhabi driving in soft desert sand dunes and now live in Queensland Australia where I mostly go camping at on various sand islands which is thick beach sand driving. I can say driving in the mountains size does not really matter, you want a tough tyre that is not going to get chunks torn off if by sharp rocks. Driving in the Okavango you want a skinny tyre that can slip through all the slime on top and get down to the firm ground underneath to grip, a fat tyre is going to float on top and get no traction. In the Abu Dhabi desert wide tyres are king. In Queensland it is a case of some fairly long distance on the highway before you get to the off road parts so on road comfort and noise is important as well as having wider tyres for the beach. Here I have gone for a more road biased tyre (Pirelli Scorpion) as they are great on road and good enough for that less than 500km a year I actually have 4WD engaged off road. However I have also noticed going too wide is a problem in soft sand. I saw a new Hi-Lux on Fraser Island struggling with overly wide tyres because it was just too underpowered to overcome the rolling resistance of the tyres in the soft sand and had to stop several times due to overheating. The owner told me he was not getting stuck, but he was having to select a lower gear and keep the revs up just to keep moving where as other similar vehicles with standard tyres in the group were not struggling.
The alloy itself is lighter than steel, but there is usually much more material used in an alloy rim to get the same strength. And especially if a set of alloys are a bit wider and is fitted with a wider tire it ends up weighing much more than the original steel wheel. Also skinnies are better on road, for fuel economy and comfort, they have less tendency to hunt.
I will admit that I can be a bit picky with tyres on my cars. The SUV and Double Cab we have in Ghana will have the same tyres fitted as ASPW recommends as his usage his hugely harder on tyres than ours and you can't argue with the results he has had using BF Goodrich Tyres.
for a overlander the skinny may be ok,less fuel,easy steering,confort,,,,but stability and sand/mud driving i think will be worst specially with heavy loads..try it on and tell us,what Paul thinks about it?
I am lucky to have travelled in remote parts of Kenya and am good friends with a safari guide. His opinion was wide tyres in sand tends to float more than a narrow one (affecting stability adversely), but because it builds more of a 'wall' in front of the tyre, drag is increased quite dramatically. With a lower powered vehicle, it can be to such an extent that the vehicle may be unable to overcome the increased drag and become stuck. It is all down to tyre physics. A tyre when deflated has a much longer foot print, not much wider at all. Therefore, a wider tyre may not be very good on a lower powered vehicle. I have a Land Rover Series III and I have a 5.50" x 16" wheel with 7.50 R16 tyres for this reason. If it had more than 69bhp, I may look at a 235/85 R16 on 1-Ton 6.50" x 16 wheels, but it doesn't.
Yvonne Wood wider tire =less pression, don't sink in mud or soft sand..in a low power 4x4 off course you can't install big tires, I have a stock Toyota land cruiser lj 70, 2.5 turbo diesel, running on 33 10.5 R15, and it's the max I can go. Sorry my English I'm from Portugal 🇵🇹
All depends on what you going to do, there is one think I know, when the tires are bigger, the rocks are smaller, as I said I run 33 10.5 R15 and some friends with 33 12.5 R15 ,and my wheels slip faster
It's good to get a different opinion on the subject. I will be purchasing tires very soon for my Rubicon and have never considered going to a narrower tire. Might be something to think about. I love your Troopy wish we could get them here.
I do a lot of off road........I think its more about the sidewalls than anything. You know you are going to air down a lot if you do a lot of offroading, and each time you do, you risk sidewall damage, so heavy sidewalls are a must, and then, thats where the split rims come into their own......a heavy sidewall tyre becomes a nightmare with tubeless rims, and as much as I love wide tyres, and do use them a lot, skinnies with thick sidewalls on split rims are great when you are going to some of the remotest rocky area's I have been to in Australia......ugly, yes , but you dont need anywhere as many spares !
I have 18 inch tyres as fitted by the manufacturer. Can't argue that manufacturers design things to be safe and reliable without straining other engineering inclusions.
Fun video. Having ran a narrow mt on 15 inch rim on my l200 pickup vs my 87 montero swb with 33x12.5 and 10" aluminum wheels with a lot of negative offset, my montero outperforms the truck in every situation fully aired up. My pickup was horrible in the sand, but yes it was fully aired up. The montero has such a wider footprint it just floats. I do think most people overlanding do not need wide tires, as they will most likely not be taking them into extreme trails. Andrew, I would be curious to see how your old land rover would have faired with aired down tires on something like a 33x12.5 in those salt pans. I think you would have a bit better chance of not breaking through with the significantly lighter ground pressure. One drawback of wide tires from my experience with big negative offset tires is when the edge of a tire catches a stump or rock. I've almost sprained a wrist from wheel whip. I think a dampener on the steering would help this. One benefit of having negative offset and wheels sticking out past the body line is that it will greatly help protect the side of your rig when you are going through cut bank roads. I would like to try a tall narrow set of tires as well one of these days.
Me I go wide for deep snow and rock crawling and mud all other trips get skinny’s. Deep snow big tire rides on top just need sip in tread ko2 or duratraks. Mud hell any 12.5 👊🏻😁
I am interested in your thinking on this .. I have a Ford Explorer 2Dr that I'll be changing tires on soon ... I have the BFG KO2's in 265/75 16" and was going to go to the 285/75 16" but I saw some other folks have gone skinnier rather then wider. I am now looking at the BFG KM2 255/85 16" .. it's lighter and it's 33" .. do I need wider? Why? I have 40K miles on the KO2's .. and I have another 10K left .. maybe more. I have geared down to 4.10's for the 33's. I was at the Outdoor Expo West this year and saw your daughter .. missed you .. you were running around she said. THat place was nuts!
Hello Andrew, many thanks for your video. You are not the only expert who believes and recommends narrow tyres. Chris Scott in his books recommends "always tall before wide". For your exact same reasons. And that is what I have always seen in local Toyotas in the Sahara. However I am confused when you say that your 235/85 once deflated will have a longer footprint then the 285/75. If my understanding is correct the height of your sidewall is 199.7 mm on the skinny while it is 213.7 on the larger. In this respect (leave on a side rolling resistance and steering) you will have more to deflate and a longer foot print on the larger tyre. Can you please comment? Many thanks Nic
Hello again Andrew being the owner of a 76 series Landcruiser wagon the one disadvantage with skinnies that I find is that because you have so much talk in the V8 you need to have plenty of tread down on the ground to utilise that talk with skinny tires you just don't get the traction that's my opinion anyway what I found to be the case
Suggestion - provide actual area footprint comparison between the two when running at road pressure and when aired down. No mention of ground clearance difference. Horses for courses. Hi flotation for sand, obstacle clearing, rock crawling need big ass tire. Overlanding with lots of road driving then skinny. Also might work better in some mud situations. Thanks for all good work you produce. A bit more technical info on this one please
235/85/16 is a dream dimention for of roading in my country but unfortunately i can't accomodate them in my small suv because they don't fit and I don't have the engine power or gear ratio to support tem. For sure the next overlanding project I will develop will be selected basis it it can hold that spesific dimention.
I assume by now you know about 255 85 16 tires. They are the best skinny that go on an 8 inch wheel and they support the weight. 33 when new and 32 when worn down.
From personal experience, I'd say that the most critical tyre choices and the ones that have the greatest effect are on motorcycles. In the motorbike world, tyres are almost a religion.
I've been giving this more thought. My G-wagen, which was the best off-road truck I ever owned, rode on skinnies. I don't think I ever got stuck with that thing. My Land Cruiser 105 did not have skinnies, but I loved that truck, but it was no match off-road, but was brilliant on the long, hard expedition. This is an experiment. I will be able to fit a wider tyre next year if I feel there are not right for the Troopy. If my decision was the wrong one, I will say so. I don't mind being wrong. One thing is for sure - it will look odd with the skinnies on the Troopy. But I am not going for looks. If I was, we would not be having this discussion.
Personally I couldn't care less about a certain look. But what I do care about is my trucks total weight VS the contact patch. That; along with the specific type of terrain I will be seeing. Ground PSI is all that really matters, along with the variable range of ground PSI with tire pressures. With my 37x12.50's I know I can cut my ground PSI by 44% by dropping down to 10-15 PSI in my tires. And for those times when you need to cut down to a solid bottom I can increase the ground PSI by 20% by increasing Tire PSI by 13lbs (over nominal). So it really all depends on curb weight VS tire size VS terrain....... (setting aside tread composition and arraignment) In my opinion; a off road tire should be sized to where is can be aired down and have a Low ground PSI (flotation) and yet narrow enough to be aired up to increase Ground PSI and cut through a mucky top layer to reach a solid bottom.
4xOverland My 105 on 35s is a beast off-road! As if you didn't rate it. So much articulation. Only problem is skinny tracks
I actually think troopies look strange with wide tyres (anything over 255 wide). I think it takes away the vintage look of a troopy.
go and watch all the Camel Trophy clips on youtube they all run skinny's is amazing some of the mud they get through i run BFG KM2 Mud-Terrain LT255/85R16 or in inches 33.8 x 10.6 wide.
Many thanks for the time and effort you put into these videos!
I run 255/85r16s on my 1983 G Wagen with 6 1/4 inch rims (Yes a rather odd size but they were widened by a prior owner :-) ) Gives the best of both worlds for the long hauls and the ruff stuff off-road.
I remember when growing up in the Namib desert that all the younger people had fat wide tyres while all the older people had skinny tyres and I don’t know the reason if it was tyres or the years of driving on sand but the old guys never got stuck and it was quite common for us youngsters.
For years and years I swore by 7.50r16s on assorted Land Cruisers. Never got stuck in sand, hardly ever had punctures, performance on rocks excellent, a little squirrelly on gravel roads at speed. I also observed the phenomenon that when I let them down, they went long, and that made all the difference in sand.
Im just here to argue about tires. I haven't watched it yet but whatever you say is wrong. I've made up my mind and you can't change it.
You're wrong! Those suck. My cousin got a ton of flats with those.
the guy at the tyre shop said those suck and wouldn't last a drive around the block
That forum told me to NEVER run those or you will die!!
My dad's an expert & he says you're all wrong.
My brothers friend's friend, has a cousin who's mates mate works at that company, he says they wouldn't buy them seeing how they are made.
"always look on the bright side of life"🎶 always a good tune to whistle
Andrew. You're absolutely killing it! Great work. The old school footage you rolled at the end was awesome, please find some more opportunities in future videos to incorporate similar clips. Maybe even a throwback series could be in the cards if you have enough footage! Can't wait to see how to build turns out
You can't go wrong choosing the tire size that comes standard on the best 4x4xFar! 👍
You definitely have a different way of looking at it than most American off-roaders. From what I’ve seen most of us here have the same philosophy: larger diameter tires will have an easier time rolling over larger obstacles, wider tires provide more mechanical grip because of the larger contact patch. Combine the extra height and width, and it allows you to have an even larger track when you air down.
The obvious drawbacks are more unsprung weight and less weight on the tire (by which I mean less PSI exerted on the ground because the vehicle weight it the same but the contact patch is significantly larger). In some scenarios such as ice skinner tires absolutely perform better because you don’t get the tendency to float, but much of that effect can be minimized by tire pressure
I run a 2nd gen xterra on 285/75/17 duratracs and the thing has been unstoppable (even with open diffs) in everything from Moab rock, the steep loose rock trails of Colorado and it’s rescued several modified jeeps running narrower tires in the narrow muddy trails of New England!
Zach Richard well said.
on rocks, but not on mud and sand....
I have a 2015 xterra with the same exact tire and size. I think the dutatracs are too loud and inefficient on pavement. I don't like the way the Xterra drives with them on. I bought it with them on it already. Great off road...im going to BFG all terrain KO2S when these wear out.
WRC rally cars run tall skinny rim/tyres on muddy tracks as the thought is they can dig down to where the hard base is. Australian traffic laws are shit too, hard to run 35" or bigger legally.
I always used 235/85x16 tires on my series Land Rovers and older Ford pickups, and I thought it was a great size. I love the stock steelies on the troopy; no on'es going to steal them because they're flashy.
I had tall skinny 750R16's on my 94 Samurai and they were awesome. Most my mates went for 31's and a few 33's which were much wider. Looked cool, but they all used to get stuck on wet grass! Only place they were better off was on sand (of which there is not much in the UK) and they were worse in mud (of which there is plenty).
Speaking as a very old off-roader and logger from B>C> Canada, tires are far more important than most know. In the old days, we went with tall and narrow, the reason being dig deep enough and you will get to good ground. The truth over the years proved that once you hit your undercarriage your stuck. What is best is a wide aggressive tread that provides as much flotation as possible. EG: A bulldozer in sand, snow or mud is best with a wide track, a snowmobile uses the same principle, as does a pair of snowshoes. A wide tread gives you needed large footprint before lowering air pressure and maintains diff clearance. you can still lower air pressure and gain an even bigger footprint
Marnie Larocque exactly. Better not to sink in the first place than risk burying yourself trying to grip
you need sometimes 48" tyres....
You will be pushing mud with front tires sliding straight I would think. Idk
I have had both of these exact tires (make, model, and sizes) on my 4x4 pickup truck. I hunt with it in the deserts of southern Utah (very similar to Australian landscapes) 6 months a year. Many, many offroad miles logged. Of the two tires, the skinny absolutely kick ass over the wide! The only thing the wide handles better is dry, fluffy sand (and they are only marginally better at that because the sand we have here will eventually beat them both). The skinnies do better in mud, rocks, snow, and gravel. Plus, they give better highway mpg, and accelerate noticeably faster! Skinnies only for me from here on out!
Thank you sir. Acceleration is faster because there is less inertia to overcome when pulling off or accelerating, and braking. Its one of the main reasons why wide tyres and city driving consumes more fuel.
I too am a huge fan of the 235/85/r16. I would love to have a dollar for every time I have been told that it is too skinny or not tall enough. I would like to have a 5 spot for everytime at the end of the trail I am right there with the big dogs... In fact the place they give me the most grief is in the sand where the narrow tire is a champ. Not only will the KO2 let down to low pressures but they knife thru the sand with great easy and if i am lucky enough to follow someone and ride in their wide tracks they have bulled there way through I dont even have to stear. I just follow on the compacted sand with little to no resistance.
Good Choice in the KO2 btw, what a great tire, even if i am not sponsered by them!!!
I love tall skinny tires. 235 85 16 is my favourite but i wish they still made 225 95 16 cause thats the ultimate in my opinion
@@blacktailbowhunter0135 Hey! Im about to get new tires, and im really considering the 235 85 r16 skinnies. My only question is how is the road performance. I have bfg's ko2 on 245/70 r16 and they do perform good in the road, but offroad they don't perform as good as I'd like.
I hope you can answer
Thanks!
@@tomasbruna3972 Second to none. You get better mpg and better hydroplane resistance in rain and slushy snow. Off-road traction is wonderful if you need to dig to find solid ground. Obviously if your going through bottomless mud or sand your going to want a wider tire to keep you floating but I wouldn’t trade my pizza cutters for anything. You either love them or hate them. I came from a 265/70r16 which were dangerous in the wet westcoast rain I get. Hydroplaning on every puddle and corner. I then went to a 235/85r16 and have never looked back. I run them on my 3500 dually as well as my toyota pickup. Ive run the cooper m+s with studs in winter and the bfg km2 mud terrain in the summer on my toyota. I had kumho at51 on my dually. The kumhos are an amazing all around tire , they outperform the bfg ko2 by far at least in the conditions have tested them in. I guess what Im trying to say is get the 235/85r16 and don’t look back. Just make sure whatever vehicle your putting then on has the extra clearance for a slightly taller tire. My bfg measures a true 32.5” tall and a true 7.5” tread width with an overall sidewall width of 9.5”.
@@blacktailbowhunter0135 Awesome answer! I was considering 265/75r16 but I also read that the weight could be too much for my truck. I think i'll get the 235's, with the right tire pressure im sure they'll roll through anything
Thank's
What pressure does everyone run on this size? Just installed a set on my ‘74 Bronco. Looks so good. Got fronts at 35 psi and rear at 30.
In my last vehicle, a '97 Prado (Colorado over here) LWB, i brought it with the widest tyres that could be put on her. When i changed the tyres i opted to go for extra height/clearance and had therefore to choose a much narrower tyre. This is just my experience in one car, but i found the handling in the mud far better. I've never got bogged on either tyre, but i found with narrower tyre getting out of ruts to avoid the really gloopy stuff much easier and in general i seemed to have more directional control when things got slippy.
A good sensible choice. Many 4wds in WA are fitted with 285s with looks surely being the number one reason. Yeah there are a handful of tracks here that require bigger tyres but for vast majority of off road terrain these are overkill. Corrugations, sand, rocky overgrown tracks are the norm . I have always felt the skinnies are better for what we have here. Ive yet to see anything to convince me a wider tyre is better in soft sand as is the common belief. With the standard split 7.50 r16 pressure down I have yet to come unstuck and believe me Ive tried. It is easier to maneuver around stakes or sharp rocks etc whereas a 285 is much more likely to pick up a mulga stake. Less wear and tear on the vehicle as the vehicle has less tyre to turn is also a benefit. All this can only increase reliability which over here in the West is paramount.
If you asked this question on a Jeep forum they would scoff and say you should never leave home with anything less than a 35!
Lol, so true. My 04 Grand Cherokee runs 235/85-16's on JK steelies, took a 2" lift and a bit of trimming to get them to fit. Vari-loks front and rear, it goes dam near everywhere.
In my technical training college we performed a test to compare wide verses narrow tyre by inking the tread and lowering the tyre back down on paper, the surface area of the narrow tyre had a larger surface area and specifically in longitudinal direction, the wider tyre of course had more traction in the transverse direction, which of course meant the narrow tyre gave better accelerating and braking performance and the wide tyre only gave better cornering performance. Unfortunately once you go past 33” 4wd tyres you can not get narrow tyres.
Simex Extreme Trekker actually come in 35 x 10.50 on 15 or 16 inch rims. They're generally only suited for competition vehicles. Don't know of any others though
yes; 285/85-16
and also 255/85-16 = 84 cm, = 34 inch.
Drove around in the Canning Basin (Great Sandy Desert) in single cab land cruisers with skinnys for three months. The only vehicles that ever got bogged had fat tyres. Consensus among team was the scallops on sidewall helped pull-crawl through sand on the top of the dunes when you finally got forced down to the lower gears after the run-up. Remember leaning out window watching the tyres digging in and working like a slow motion paddleboat. There were some big dunes. Skinnies every time.
6:38 I have beat a rim back into shape, on the trail. I always carry a ball peen (16 oz, or so), but a hatchet poll would work just as well. To clarify, I threw the spare on and then hammered the bent rim back into shape. A little air and I had a usable spare, again. The rim is still in use today and that's enough for me.
Sidewall number is a percentage of width. In that example the 285 actually has more sidewall.
And more width. I agree.
Yeah I was about to bring up that point. I would have to imagine the 285 out performs the smaller tyre.
Still Andrew brings up some great points about tyre and wheel weight. Bigger tyres have a bigger chance of breaking driveline components, use more fuel, reduce suspension effectiveness, can require regearing and fender mods and they cost more.
All these downsides you live with for 99% of the time, to gain an advantage 1% of the time.
I think there's a lot to be said about going for a conservative tyre size.
yes. i myself run stock size all terrains on my hilux for the 99% of the time advantages, as its a daily driver and tourer mostly.
Bigger diameter almost always outperforms smaller diameter but comes with many drawbacks like you say. But what's good about skinnys is that they make a long, narrow footprint when aired down which gives good flotation on sand while saving a lot in fuel and not needing as much power.
Width is only there to provide better stability on the road, the highest profile is always the best off road.
actually @ a given pressure both tyres will have the same contact patch (ie Force = Pressure x Area) however the wider tyre will offer more resistance to forward movement in sand because of the width. like what JP O says. But hey those big fat treads look so sexy eh.
Soooo pleased to have come across your posts, enjoying them a lot. I know I'm late, but your posts are still valid and still look very fresh.
I love the look of big fat tyres on alloys, especially on a Chelsea Tractor. In the various Middle Eastern countries that I've driven I kinda liked the impression of 'extra floatation' in soft sand. For real 'all terrain' I used 'skinnies', decision arrived at by looking at Brit military use. Thousands upon thousands of Landies, S1, S2, S3, 101, 110, 130. Thousands of drivers with 'varied' skill sets, millions of hard miles, all multiplied by 70 years of experience with Landies alone, every terrain on earth. What do they chose? Some say the cheapest but it's simply not true. They are generally skinnier than is popular today on steel rims.
Alloy or steel, I've beaten out a few steels to 'get home' but if it's gone that badly the Tyre isn't getting you home so the answer is simply 2 x spares. (Do love the look of alloy though,,,, shineyyyyy,,,,, oops went off on one there.)
Would love to attach pics of Africa, ME etc, still trying to work out how.
Thanks again,
Mike
We use the BFG AT 235/85/16 on the Land Cruiser 70, 100 and 200 series. All if them are heavier as they're armored. It works well and we don't have to stock different sizes for different vehicles. On my personal Hilux i use 31/10.5/15 as i can get spares in any tyre shop from here to Mongolia or turn left towards Africa. Just dont go weird on suspension or tyre mods.
I'm glad you've done this Andrew!
Japanese alloy wheels have to be very tough, because they have to pass a very strict specifications for surviving a curb side hit.
My advice: stick to the factory size. All the ratio's and components of the driveline are calculated and designed by superb engineers to make a tyre with these specified dimensions role as efficient as possible. Bigger, wider and thus heavier wheels will put more stress on the driveline and will use more energy.
Cheers
Precisely ! Been in this game for more than 20 years, and thats the conclusion everyone comes to in the end.
Also love your analysis between steel and alloy rims! Really nice job!
100% agree with you suggestions Sir. Smaller wheels and alloys everyday. But the big 35 inch mud tires look just so badass. 😜 and terrible for over landing and everyday use.
Just google the Bush Tucker man Les Hiddins! He travelled to places most Australians will never get to see, cataloging bush tucker for the Australian army across the harsh top end. All in an army land rover on skinny tyres and steel rims. Next time you're in a country town, check out all the graziers landcruiser utes, skinny tyres and steel rims. Cheers
100%
Les Hiddins specified Goodyear Custom Xtra-Grip cross ply skinny tyres in 12 ply on his overland utility vehicles.
NB : The Army 10 ply rated radial Olympic Steeltreks were the worst tyre on the planet for cross-country and overland use.
235/85r16 vs 265/75r16
255/85r16 vs 285/75r16
(assume same height as wide tyre)
Skinny pros
1, cut through mud, create a groove does not slide around
2, less rolling resistance on sand
3, better fc
4, less strain on tie rod, bearing
5, grip better on loose gravel (higher contact pressure)
Skinny cons (assume same height as wider)
1, less stable when cornering
2, braking distance longer
Debate for rock crawling skinny or wider is better?
I will only run steel wheels on my vehicle. Never owned an alloy wheel in 50 years and don't want any ever. run a 1999 silverado 2500 4x4. eaton locker 4.10 gears 6L engine E80 trans. firm ride suspension, camper/towing/skid plates. 265 75 16 BFG all terrain Ko2 tires and carry a thousand pound four wheel brand pop up camper all the time. Love the truck and the tires. Have a whopping 40 thousand miles on it but now that its my daily driver as well the mileage will be going up. Nice video. did have the tire store straighten the american spoker wheel bent rim on my fj40. ran all terrain on that with 30 inch tires. sold the land cruiser for twice what I paid for it before buying the truck new. Loved the all terrains on the old fj40 as well .
It's a no brainer Andrew, BIG TIRES SAVE LIVES.
I've done the Canning some years in a rodeo 3.2 petrol, running Cooper St 235x85x16 they went well no problems, sandhills were a breeze, because of that long footprint, my mate was running a troopy with fatter tyres he got stuck on a number of sandhills
Wheel (steel)VS(alloy) weight wont make much of a defference when running big tyres(big tires are HEAVY).
I've repaired a steel rim on 4x4 Hilux in the bush myself (And not just a small love tap) I'll all ways use steel rim. And at go's back from my rally days !!
If people commenting that a certain size is best would take some time & actually watch Andrew's videos, you'll realise he's building the truck very specifically using knowledge gained from more years of experience in this field than any of us. This isn't a vehicle being fitted with a 3" lift & 35" tyres to look good & a hope that will allow it to go everywhere you could imagine from looking at videos on here. Skinny 32" tyres are perfect for long range overlanding & still have good capabilities in the rough stuff so are ideal for this vehicle. I'd say stick with steel rims for the Canning though, as there's a definite possibility of rim damage from rogue rocks on the track. People have smashed Alloy rims on the Oodnadatta Track on the way to the Simpson so on a lesser used track I'd definitely stick with the steels just for the last ditch option of throwing a tube into one if it's bent out of shape.
Good closing point on the steel vs alloy argument.
I love your content and advice. Other than opinion it is based on facts, very rare these days.
Andrew. With the amount of rock we drive on and around, bending a rim lip happens a lot more here. I like steel because of that. If I was running in sandy Oz or Africa ( yes I know there are rocks there too), I could feel safe on Alloy.
I recently equipped my LJ with much wider and taller tires and have had pretty good luck so far. The vehicle only weighs roughly 1700kg and is very good at floating across sand and snow and doesn't seem to be bothered too much by the added weight but I do notice a difference. On the plus side, the bigger tires (KO2) were actually cheaper than if I had gone with a narrower but equally tall tire size. Finally, I took a note from your previous experiences in Africa and ordered a rather common size for my area, 33x12.5. Cheers.
Onya Andrew… good choice.
235’s & wolf rims are where it’s at for Defenders, and for good reason… same applies for Troopies. An expedition (or overland) vehicle is what it is… for long term self sufficient travelling where economy, reliability and dependability are paramount. Taller tyres mess with gear ratios and extra strain on the drivetrain, clutch…etc… not something you want in the back of your mind on a tour, and modifying components to suit those tyres is just another added expense. The rule of keeping it simple works wonders. 235’s are a better tyre of choice because of their strength and versatility in ever changing terrain. Other benefits of being able to source & carry gutsy inner tubes as an extra measure for tyre repairs come to mind too.
But in the end…. whatever size tyre, vehicle, or modifications people have, it really all boils down to what sits behind the steering wheel.
Gday, late to the party… Anyway I’ve been running Coopers st maxx 255/85r16 LT’s ( about 34”, regarded as tall & skinny) on my Patrol for about 3 yrs now. They’re terrific. Can’t fault them as a working tyre on any surface. I got them to try to deal with corrogated dirt roads better than 235/85r16’s or the standard 265/70r16’s. Depending on load & conditions I’ll go down to 22-26 psi. They soak it up much better than other tyres I’ve tried. Only two issues, they mess with the gearing in 2H or 4H. Low range, no issues. Towing a heavy load I only do in 4th anyway so they help there too. Second, they’re not common. I’ve been lucky and not damaged them but if I had to get one in kal or Karratha I’d have to wait. I have two spares so hopefully I’ve mitigated that for all but remote area travel.
I personally have straightened steel and alloy rims in the bush with a ball pein hammer (only minor bends) and they both worked.
Switched from 35’s to pizza cutters: Yokohama Geolandar X-AT LT 235/80/17. Unmatched on- and offroad and better fuel economy and less strain on the drive train
Nice balanced argument.
Mates and I did a local trip which involves some beach driving. After a long day we headed back to the camp with seasprayed windscreens at about 50klm per hour. Then the shit his the fan an we were Airbourne. Nobody saw the big rocks sticking out like dog balls. The guy with 7.50 x16 and split rims had no visible damage but the other guy with wide steelies on badly dinted every. run. A good hit with the axe and good as gold. I stuck with 235/85/16 on tubeless 6.5 rims. Shit in mud..good on bitmen and especially deflated on sand. 12 psi
I have a HZJ75 (also a Troopy). I did managed to repair a rim once on the track. At the time I had 35" tires, steel 10 inch sunny rims. We were away for a weekend. I had already staked a tire so I had already used my one spare. I then clipped what turned out to be a brick the same color as the sandy 2 tire track we were all traveling along (more like belting along - it had been raining so no or little dust). The brick dented the inside of the rim just enough to make the bead leak. I would normally just change the wheel and worry about it later, but I had already used my one spare. No-one had a spare that was compatible with my cruiser (wrong stud pattern or tire too small), so I had to fix it. A few attempts at hammering it roughly back into place and she finally stopped leaking. It was a front tire and it rode a bit funny, but at the time it wasn't so bad that it required changing with one of the back wheels. As it happened, on the road on the trip home the next day I did find that the wobble was a lot more noticeable, so I did change it for one on the back. Now I do a lot more rock climbing and mud work so I run 37" tires on 10" rims, but I also now always carry a second spare wheel.
My Troopy is no longer a daily driver (37" tires, body and spring lifts, 4" long anti inversion hangers, auto lockers, lots of bar work etc, all go to make it an interesting drive on the road.
As far as tires go, I have to respectfully disagree with you (to a point). I run 13.5" wide and 37" tall, but still on 15" rims, so I have PLENTY of side wall. Its really good in the sand. My footprint when I let the tires right down is HUGE! Even with very aggressive MT tread, I just float over sand. I do however need to put a lower set of gears in the transfer box (low range is not very low any more). My tired old 1HZ from 88 does struggle quite a lot in the sand. I dont believe its ever had the head off and its done 480K - it used to be a pilot vehicle doing long trips back and forth to WA and the eastern states.
There is a video somewhere out there on the net where they compare skinny tires vs. wide tires in a wide variety of environments. I can't remember where I saw it but the end result was skinny or tires outperformed the wide tires in almost every instance except for rock crawling.
I have a defender 130 DC flat deck.
I use the factory HD Wolf steel rims with BFG 255-85-16 KM II.
I cannot remember the last time i got stuck or punctured a tyre.
I tried the 285-75-16 on fat defender alloys and disliked them immensly.
They weren't as tall as the 255 tyres so dragged the diffs and really skated around on wet dirt to the point where a failed climb had me skating sideways down the hill with zero control.
They also widened the wheell track and caused lots of bump steer in ruts,hopeless.
fat wheels off and back to tall skinnier tyres.
Just a short note about my experience.
yes 255/85-16 against 33x12.-15, 33 lost in steep slippery hill.
APPRECIATED.
Being in the States, I went with 255/85/16 tires instead of the more popular 285/75/16 tires on my Nissan Xterra. Though one could argue the ones I went with are slightly taller, I really made the decision because they're narrower. Not having the opportunity to test them side by side in a scientifically, I thought narrower tires might bet getter gas mileage on the highway and have a longer contact patch off-road. My Cooper Discoverer ST Maxx tires have been great so far in the skinnier dimension, even after asking a lot from them on and off road.
In comparison to skinny tall tubed tires on my father’s 70s Toyota and GM pickup trucks, to todays nicely treaded big radial AT and MT tires, there’s drastic difference in on and off road performance. Wider tires with tall sidewalls, allow you to run on lesser air pressure for pavement use, while minimizing the side to side flex on turns, improving road handling, and soaking up the surface imperfections nicely, resulting in a comfortable ride and reducing the forces and vibrations on suspension components, while retaining or enhancing the off roadability.
About 2 decades ago, 12.5x33 tires seemed to be the pinnacle (of looks and performance) of aftermarket off road builds in the North American off-road market but now the 37s have seemed to surpass the ideal 35s. Of course, the bigger tires cost more, burn more fuel, are heavier, noisier, aren’t easily available in the remote areas, not all vehicle wheel wells and axles can take them (cheaply), but they definitely make the difficult terrain look easy. In my experience, the 285/70or75R17 is a very practical tire for most on and off road driving conditions, it doesn’t cost much to buy and to fit on most 4x4 vehicles with slight modifications, and these days they could also be found as stock tires on off road dedicated factory variants, and isn’t a rare specie to be found only in certain parts of the world.
In the past, 15 & 16 inch diameter wheels were considered ideal but as the disc brakes have increased in size and stopping power, their utility is far greater than smaller brakes, hence a bit larger 17 & 18 inch wheels are acceptable essentials, with a bit bigger and wider tires. Once you get over and through that obstacle, the humming noise of bigger off-road tires becomes assurance music to ears.
Big fat wide tyres are only for making the "rig" the tough look.....235/85R16 tyres are about the same size as 7.50x16, available everywhere in remote locations as 235/85R16 or 7.50x16 is a standard size fitment for most vehicles that farms and government vehicles, so finding a tyre is easy. 235/85R16 or 7.50x16 tyres do perform very well, just look at the Camel Trophy Defender Years and see the mud they drove through.
I really think tyre choice can only be considered when terrain choice is factored in. Sandy, rocky, loose dry go wide. Muddy, snowy go thin. Weight is a consideration, but not what you are thinking, I have BF Goodrich Mud-Terrain T/A's in 265/75R16 on steel rims on my Rover, Those are a son of a ******* to take off and put back on by myself when changing brake pads and such. I've et my Wheaties and am not a weak guy, just getting older at 66!
Yesterday i bougth 235 85 16 for my Landcruiser 75...I wanted 33x12.5 for the look...but at the end steering would have sucked...Skinnies it is...and it s perfect...
I have 235/85 on 8 inch rims. It can make it a little tricky to seat the bead on the rim but they fit, not tried airing down yet to see if they tend to come off the rim, will have to see. We had a vehicle on steel rims hit a washout and bend the wheel into a U shape, we hammered it back inot shape with a lump hammer, so thats one person done a field repair for you!! IN fairness though, with a deep tyre like a 235/85 I think the tyre probably cushions the rim well enough it shouldn't be an issue
I run 225/75 16 on my Disco 1 here in Canada for the winter vs the stock 235/70 16 size I run in the summer. Winter tires are General Grabber Artic LT. Fantastic tire so far (first winter on them). My reasoning for the more narrow tire in winter is to load the contact patch more and dig down through the loose snow to the hard pack for traction (tires set to 40 psi for all around winter driving). I think the same logic could apply for summer over landing with the exception of tire pressure for obvious reasons. Sand will pose the question of, will the more narrow tire that is aired down, provide the same flotation as a wider tire while keeping the benifit of the narrow tire at higher pressure on more solid surface? I have limited sand driving experience. Also, as far as mud and snow go, the narrow tire can provide both the benifit of digging down to a more solid surface if the condition dictates as well as airing down to float on top if the condition is more favorable for that approach.
my 2 cents :)
Cheers
Absolute correct - this is the best for an overlander. I had the same question for my DEFENDER - at the end 235/85R16 BFG are the best balance between all you need for overlanding. 7J is also the best rim - DOTZ DAKAR would be a choice here in EU....
I like the way skinnier tyres look.
hope they work out well for you!
I suppose it mainly has to do with what terrain you're traveling on.
Where I live, it's quite snowy and muddy, making wider tyres a better choice for me.
Here's my take. I had a Landcruiser tray-back ute, fitted with a steel enclosed box in the back and also able to store stuff on the top too. I went to Fraser Island with so much weight that the skinny 8 ply steel treads were at 45psi and had a bulge already. It was a newish rebuilt petrol motor so not some worn out donk, and it struggled on any hill on the way there due to the weight. I let the front down to 35 psi and left the rear at 45psi when we got to Inskip. Three of us and everything for two weeks camping. We had to drive around three others who got stuck in the soft sand off the barge. Fought our way through soft sand due to high tide all the way to Orchid beach. Even up Indian head no probs. This was also before there were cops, rangers and wooden tracks. This was when men were men, women got married in white to match the appliances and knew there place, and, and, we drove half pissed on the beach, with I might add, no fucking seatbelt, and previous to having all the fruit hanging off new fourbies these days. We had no choice with tides, but low tide would have been sweet. That trip sold me on skinny tyres for sand driving especially. I have wide tyres on my latest fourbie and as yet haven't hit the sand, but I am a bit suss they won't be great. I bought it with them on, so that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it. Anyway guys, crack a fat, I mean a beer, and keep on keeping on.
So it’s all about compromise. He’s planning an over lander across australia which involves a lot of pavement, hard packed rutted roads, sand, mud. He is not planning to go hardcore rock crawling or ice fishing. He has other vids that goes into a little more in depth about tire size, tire pressure, etc. on my 2010 daily driver FJ I roll on BFG 265 75R16 AT KO2. 90% pavement, 5% light to moderate off road and 5% severe in varying terrain just to get from point A to point B without worrying about getting stuck or having to air down. A capable vehicle needs capable tires driven by a capable driver who is highly aware of the limitations of his skill and his vehicle. I’ve done the rubicon and Ouray. and Moab and through severe winter weather in northern Nevada and California and it’s always been the combination of driver, veh, and tires that have always brought me home safe. And unscathed, except after the rubicon trail in 1996 hahhahaha. my CJ 7 soft top got obliterated by an angry tree branch.
Alloy wheels also work as a heat sink to help remove heat from your brakes and wheel bearings.
31×10 works for me out in Death Valley, Mojave Desert in my late 80' Toyota Hilux!
We have two Cruisers both have 32x 11-50 BF Ko2 very happy with them (fj40 and fj60)
I want 235/85r16 on my pathfinder so badly! Yesterday the shop finished lifting the body close to 2” and now I just have to figure out what 16” rim will make them fit. Excited about it!
I base my tire selection on the type of off roading that I will be doing most of the time. In your case I would go with the wider tire. Reason being is from what I have seen in Australia there is a lot of sand, wider tires offer more of a floatation on sand at lower psi. A narrow tire even at a low psi will still dig into the sand leaving you stuck. Just my opinion.
235 85R16, thats a stock defender size, yes, they are excellent, or 16x7.50, perfect on 6.5inch rims. I have done overland with 300kg on my roof and fully loaded, no problem at all.
It depends where you are, and your 4x4 approach. Even here in the Pacific Northwest, where skinnies cut through mud and snow to solid ground, there are those with very light 4x4s who take the high flotation approach. A dedicated desert runner wants low pressure balloons and avoids aggressive tread. Where I live, 255/85R16s with very aggressive tread suits our off highway rigs. If you run a lot of highway and don't change tires between summer and winter, then All Terrain is your compromise.
Should have been titled “Steel or Alloy?” Lol.
Aluminum is the best for road cuz it's hard and solid but for offroading the steel is the best ,when offroading it means we gonna push the vehicle and it's parts to the limit and the alloy when it face a rock at a hight speed it would crack but steel would have a certain deformation that you can easily repair with a hammer and continue your journey
so, is there an update on this? I am choosing between 33" 255 or 285 for my discovery. Everyone goes for the 285s but i think the 255 will be just as capable and much kinder to the drive train and the fuel economy...
The old fat or skinny can of worms!
Choice of tyre size depends on the load to be carried, the terrain, and partly on the engine power/torque.
Then there is the inflation pressure for on and off-road.
I'm restricting this discussion to 4x4 vehicles and LT (light truck) tyres, a tyre type designated by the TRA (tire and rim association, which is the association of USA tyre manufacturers).
Rolling resistance generally increases with tyre width. Because of this low powered 4x4's, e.g. Toyota 1HZ, can struggle with wide tyres.
In sand however the rolling resistance also depends largely on the depth and slope of the sand formed in front of the tyres which is a function of the soil strength, the tyre diameter and width and the vertical deflection of the tyre sidewall height.
The US military have conducted the most work to determine the mobility of vehicles in different types of terrain. Their research started after the second world war and hasn't ceased. The early work, VCI (vehicle cone index), concentrated on fine loam soils, but was supeceded by NRMM (nato reference mobility model), which is now in version 2. NRMM II covers five different terrains, hard sufaces, fine grained soils (e.g. mud), coarse grained soils (e.g. sand), Muskeg (or peat bog), and snow. It covers vehicle with powered and un-powered tyres, as well as tracked vehicles.
For powered tyres NRMM II finds what it calls "drawbar pull", the term based upon validation performed by measuring the load that can be pulled. This is the sum of available traction less rolling resistance. For un-powered tyres rolling resistace is found.
Leading up to "Desert Storm", the war in Iraq, they increased testing of NRMM II in the types of sandy terrain in Iraq.
The predictions and results of extensive tests showed good correlation in sand. Mobility in sand increases when:
a) Tyre diameter is increased
b) Tyre width is increased
c) Sidewall vertical deflection is increased, i.e. lower inflation pressure
In sand, comparing tyre sizes 235/85 R16 to 285/75 R16, when both are inflated to achieve the same sidewall vertical deflection as a percentage of sidewall height, the larger tyre will provide better mobility. Comparing 235/85 R16 to 265/75 R16 tyres, which are close enough to the same diameter, the wider tyre will provide better mobility.
Footprint area. As inflation pressure is reduced, the length of the footprint increases, and the width only increases slightly. For the same sidewall vertical deflection the footprint length is greater for larger diameter tyres.
The vertical stiffness (load divided by deflection) of a tyre is a function of the effective volume of air in the tyre and its inflation pressure. Increasing, either or both, the diameter or width, increases the effective volume of air.
For on road, the load capacity stipulated for a tyre is the load that will create a vertical deflection of the sidewall of approximately 12.5% of the sidewall height. The rated load capacity and inflation pressure is marked on the sidewall. In Australia the vehicle manufacturer must provide a placard with the tyre details and inflation pressure to suit the load carried, and again it is related to the tyre vertical stiffness and sidewall vertical deflection.
When larger tyres are fitted, the inflation pressure needs to be lowered to achieve the same vertical deflection, as a percentage of the sidewall height.
When larger tyres are "aired down" off-road, they need a lower inflation pressure to achieve the same sidewall vertical deflection. The typical blanket statement to lower pressure to xx psi or x.x bar, is not a good guide when tyre sizes (stiffness) and loads can vary as much as they do.
bushie ute
This is complicating...
You do know about tires, thank you for the explanation, it is true but you could have summarized it for better understanding
bushie ute you talk too much
bushie ute have a link to these tests?
I can speak of personal experience. I have a Nissan patrol pickup which sometimes doubles up as a tractor which I use to make roads an fire paths on a Kalahari farm. I tow tree super single truck tires stuck together with an tractor tire on top for weight in software sand dunes extra. The 285 tires performed brilliant in this application were as the 235 tires I would have to murder the vehicle and would still get stuck. The floatation on the skinny tires just cannot compare were as the wider tires I don't even put it into 4x4 most of the times. The feul economy on road is better with the skinny tires but are worse in sand as the tires cut into the sand as to the bigger tires that floats on-top. The 285 also gives an beter ride on rough services and the vehicle is much more stable as the 235 tires the vehicle will wonder about on dirt roads. Power is down on open road with the 285 but performance is better in sand. So it comes down to what you want to do with the vehicle.
I had:
1988 Range Rover with 205 wide tires (locking differential)
1999 Range Rover with 255 wide tires (some weird 4x4 non locking differential)
* The 1988 could not be stopped in the Colorado Mountains with snow.
* The 1999 constantly sat on top of the snow and spun its wheels in Michigan snow.
The diff is probably at fault tho, I have a rangie with 265/75r16 (maybe a bit large) but its unstoppable in snow any kind of snow its never stopping
Great review - totally agree in the benefits in the skinnies
I find that having a 235/85-16 spare (and/or trailer tires) along with 265/75-16 on all four corners makes for a good combination and both sizes are easy to find (at least in North and South America) :)
Andrew with laiden troopys an tray backs go with the wider tyres an offset rim on the rear as troopys are narrower at the rear .33inch are a perfect size an let down it will have biger foot print than wat u have decided on rim size 8x15 or 16 inch desert rat rims I run troopys as bush taxis an for many years we tried alloy rims in the harsh arnham land roads alloy rims heat up an the nuts come lose an with 12 people an trailer baggage steel is real .hammer a few kms in the NT with me .on the other side I understand your tyer choice an the fact why an maybe your not driving to times an appointments as we did in Arnhem land /qld/SA/Wa .33s stand up well an will give your troopy the stability it needs love your show great to see you hear in Australia
The only disadvantage to skinnies that I have experienced in the last couple of months after switching from 285/65R17's to 235/85R16's is that offroad stability is reduced as a consequence of the narrower stance of the vehicle. This obviously depends on what offset rim you run and if you use spacers, but I was struggling to find rims with an offset greater than -18 for the new tyres (KO2) for my Landcruiser HJ75. The sketchy factor when the car is on an awkward angle has increased and is noticeable in the cab, it seems to start tipping a lower angle. This makes sense to me because the centre of gravity is now closer to the edge of the contact patch. My first car was a Series 3 Land Rover with 235/85R16's, but this problem was never noticeable because the centre of gravity on that thing was so low. Having said that, I agree with your argument for skinny tyres Andrew, I love them. Improvements to the 'weight' and 'feel' of the steering were enough of a bonus!
Yes, its counter intuitive but a long skinny tyre footprint is usually ( note: the word usually, which means not all the time) is better in sand than a wide footprint. If you are driving in soft coastal tracks and have wide tyres you better have a good power to weight ratio to overcome the sand drag on the edges of the wheel ruts that you are invariably driving in. The narrower tyre will run quiet easily along the middle of the wheel rut where the sand is compacted. Think about it.
I like the skinny tires on steel wheels!! They look great!!!
as someone who has had both really wide tyres and quite skinny tyres, i have found that it all comes down to personal preference as i didn't notice a huge difference, just go with what you think will be the best, i personally like wider tyres just because they look nicer on 4wds
Tyre choice is very much terrain dependent. I have lived in South Africa and travelled on rough gravel roads, soft Mozambique sand and the rugged Lesotho Mountains. I spent a few years living in the Okavango in Botswana churning through water and mud, a few years in Abu Dhabi driving in soft desert sand dunes and now live in Queensland Australia where I mostly go camping at on various sand islands which is thick beach sand driving.
I can say driving in the mountains size does not really matter, you want a tough tyre that is not going to get chunks torn off if by sharp rocks. Driving in the Okavango you want a skinny tyre that can slip through all the slime on top and get down to the firm ground underneath to grip, a fat tyre is going to float on top and get no traction. In the Abu Dhabi desert wide tyres are king. In Queensland it is a case of some fairly long distance on the highway before you get to the off road parts so on road comfort and noise is important as well as having wider tyres for the beach. Here I have gone for a more road biased tyre (Pirelli Scorpion) as they are great on road and good enough for that less than 500km a year I actually have 4WD engaged off road.
However I have also noticed going too wide is a problem in soft sand. I saw a new Hi-Lux on Fraser Island struggling with overly wide tyres because it was just too underpowered to overcome the rolling resistance of the tyres in the soft sand and had to stop several times due to overheating. The owner told me he was not getting stuck, but he was having to select a lower gear and keep the revs up just to keep moving where as other similar vehicles with standard tyres in the group were not struggling.
The alloy itself is lighter than steel, but there is usually much more material used in an alloy rim to get the same strength. And especially if a set of alloys are a bit wider and is fitted with a wider tire it ends up weighing much more than the original steel wheel. Also skinnies are better on road, for fuel economy and comfort, they have less tendency to hunt.
I will admit that I can be a bit picky with tyres on my cars.
The SUV and Double Cab we have in Ghana will have the same tyres fitted as ASPW recommends as his usage his hugely harder on tyres than ours and you can't argue with the results he has had using BF Goodrich Tyres.
Ghana with the whindi
for a overlander the skinny may be ok,less fuel,easy steering,confort,,,,but stability and sand/mud driving i think will be worst specially with heavy loads..try it on and tell us,what Paul thinks about it?
I am lucky to have travelled in remote parts of Kenya and am good friends with a safari guide. His opinion was wide tyres in sand tends to float more than a narrow one (affecting stability adversely), but because it builds more of a 'wall' in front of the tyre, drag is increased quite dramatically. With a lower powered vehicle, it can be to such an extent that the vehicle may be unable to overcome the increased drag and become stuck. It is all down to tyre physics. A tyre when deflated has a much longer foot print, not much wider at all. Therefore, a wider tyre may not be very good on a lower powered vehicle. I have a Land Rover Series III and I have a 5.50" x 16" wheel with 7.50 R16 tyres for this reason. If it had more than 69bhp, I may look at a 235/85 R16 on 1-Ton 6.50" x 16 wheels, but it doesn't.
Yvonne Wood wider tire =less pression, don't sink in mud or soft sand..in a low power 4x4 off course you can't install big tires, I have a stock Toyota land cruiser lj 70, 2.5 turbo diesel, running on 33 10.5 R15, and it's the max I can go. Sorry my English I'm from Portugal 🇵🇹
All depends on what you going to do, there is one think I know, when the tires are bigger, the rocks are smaller, as I said I run 33 10.5 R15 and some friends with 33 12.5 R15 ,and my wheels slip faster
Mainly gravel/sandy tracks and tarmac. A Series III on HD leaf spring is no rock crawler.
i put 285/85-16 on a LJ70 2.4turbo diesel; and you heavy offroad.
It's good to get a different opinion on the subject. I will be purchasing tires very soon for my Rubicon and have never considered going to a narrower tire. Might be something to think about. I love your Troopy wish we could get them here.
I do a lot of off road........I think its more about the sidewalls than anything.
You know you are going to air down a lot if you do a lot of offroading, and each time you do, you risk sidewall damage, so heavy sidewalls are a must, and then, thats where the split rims come into their own......a heavy sidewall tyre becomes a nightmare with tubeless rims, and as much as I love wide tyres, and do use them a lot, skinnies with thick sidewalls on split rims are great when you are going to some of the remotest rocky area's I have been to in Australia......ugly, yes , but you dont need anywhere as many spares !
4wd’s are naturally passionate, wrong, anyone who is interested in any topic and willing to learn and further are passionate
I have 18 inch tyres as fitted by the manufacturer. Can't argue that manufacturers design things to be safe and reliable without straining other engineering inclusions.
Fun video. Having ran a narrow mt on 15 inch rim on my l200 pickup vs my 87 montero swb with 33x12.5 and 10" aluminum wheels with a lot of negative offset, my montero outperforms the truck in every situation fully aired up. My pickup was horrible in the sand, but yes it was fully aired up. The montero has such a wider footprint it just floats. I do think most people overlanding do not need wide tires, as they will most likely not be taking them into extreme trails.
Andrew, I would be curious to see how your old land rover would have faired with aired down tires on something like a 33x12.5 in those salt pans. I think you would have a bit better chance of not breaking through with the significantly lighter ground pressure.
One drawback of wide tires from my experience with big negative offset tires is when the edge of a tire catches a stump or rock. I've almost sprained a wrist from wheel whip. I think a dampener on the steering would help this.
One benefit of having negative offset and wheels sticking out past the body line is that it will greatly help protect the side of your rig when you are going through cut bank roads.
I would like to try a tall narrow set of tires as well one of these days.
Me I go wide for deep snow and rock crawling and mud all other trips get skinny’s. Deep snow big tire rides on top just need sip in tread ko2 or duratraks. Mud hell any 12.5 👊🏻😁
I am interested in your thinking on this .. I have a Ford Explorer 2Dr that I'll be changing tires on soon ... I have the BFG KO2's in 265/75 16" and was going to go to the 285/75 16" but I saw some other folks have gone skinnier rather then wider. I am now looking at the BFG KM2 255/85 16" .. it's lighter and it's 33" .. do I need wider? Why? I have 40K miles on the KO2's .. and I have another 10K left .. maybe more. I have geared down to 4.10's for the 33's. I was at the Outdoor Expo West this year and saw your daughter .. missed you .. you were running around she said. THat place was nuts!
Thank you for sharing your wisdom
Hello Andrew, many thanks for your video. You are not the only expert who believes and recommends narrow tyres. Chris Scott in his books recommends "always tall before wide". For your exact same reasons. And that is what I have always seen in local Toyotas in the Sahara.
However I am confused when you say that your 235/85 once deflated will have a longer footprint then the 285/75. If my understanding is correct the height of your sidewall is 199.7 mm on the skinny while it is 213.7 on the larger. In this respect (leave on a side rolling resistance and steering) you will have more to deflate and a longer foot print on the larger tyre. Can you please comment? Many thanks Nic
Hello again Andrew being the owner of a 76 series Landcruiser wagon the one disadvantage with skinnies that I find is that because you have so much talk in the V8 you need to have plenty of tread down on the ground to utilise that talk with skinny tires you just don't get the traction that's my opinion anyway what I found to be the case
You did UA-cam Videos when there was no UA-cam... in 1987! Great!
Suggestion - provide actual area footprint comparison between the two when running at road pressure and when aired down. No mention of ground clearance difference. Horses for courses. Hi flotation for sand, obstacle clearing, rock crawling need big ass tire. Overlanding with lots of road driving then skinny. Also might work better in some mud situations. Thanks for all good work you produce. A bit more technical info on this one please
KO2's also come in 34/10.5/17. but you can only get them from the USA
255 85 16 is what im getting for mine
I agree that skinny tyres are the way to go for many reasons.
I could write a list 2 pages long haha.
235/85/16 is a dream dimention for of roading in my country but unfortunately i can't accomodate them in my small suv because they don't fit and I don't have the engine power or gear ratio to support tem.
For sure the next overlanding project I will develop will be selected basis it it can hold that spesific dimention.
I assume by now you know about 255 85 16 tires. They are the best skinny that go on an 8 inch wheel and they support the weight. 33 when new and 32 when worn down.
From personal experience, I'd say that the most critical tyre choices and the ones that have the greatest effect are on motorcycles. In the motorbike world, tyres are almost a religion.
Struth, edit it man!! Just a question about 235/85/16 on cruiser split rims vs. 750/16's.
My newest tires are 255/85R16 (roughly 32.8x10.1) on a steel wheel. I love them. Nice and tall (good clearance) but still skinny.
255 is not skinny dummy.