Firstly, Jurchens are one of the civs I most want in the game at this stage, along with Tanguts (if we don't get Tibetans). So really looking forward to this :D Love the staggered eco bonuses. It's a great way to show a transition from steppe nomads to settled peoples. Very fiddly for a player to use ingame, but Tatars are similar in their fiddly bonuses, so it's not that insane. Tiehuopao looks like a fun unit as well. And I love Steppe Lancers, so more love to them is always good to see :D
Hey, thank you so much for saying so tyranitar! I'm really glad you liked how this one turned out! And thanks for the vote of confidence on the staggered Eco bonuses -- a bunch of other commenters have made some great points about how they could be better balanced, but I really love the theming of it even if it would be a little tricky to use. Great to hear that you enjoyed the build my friend! Always good to see you in the comment section.
Jurchens! Jurchens! Jurchens! I'm pumped since they were one of the first civs I theorycrafted myself. But yeah, Chinese could be broken into Han, Jurchens, Khitans, Tibetans, and Bai (Nanzhao). And I agree, the pirate raid on Japan could be a super fan single level campaign. My concept was roughly this: Jurchens: cavalry civ -Receive a pig whenever a Mill is built -Bloodlines, Husbandry free -Cavalry archers fire a second weak projectile Team Bonus -Tribute fee reduced by 10% UU: Iron Pagoda Horseman (super heavy cavalry that can dismount/remount or super heavy cavalry with high conversion resistance) UT: Shamans (monks heal 150% faster), Eight Banners (spearmen, skirmishers, and light cavalry take half population space) Architecture: East Asian Wonder: Mukden Palace Campaign: Aguda Really shows how our design philosophies differ. I definitely opt more for simplicity. But I really like the synergy of the two unique techs. My main complaint is that I think there are too many cavalry bonuses for this civ. Other than that, it was sweet to see how we both approached them.
Great to hear from you Guru! And HEY, so sick that you did a build for this too! You're absolutely right, it's fascinating seeing how our designs contrast from each other. But despite yours being a lot more clean and conventional and mind being a lot more wacky, there are a lot of distinct similarities that are really cool to see! I think my favorite piece of your build here is the Eight Banners UT. It takes the civ in a very different direction from mine, but it's a great effect and a really fitting name! The eight banners reforms came in right at the tail end of the AOE 2 relevant time frame, hence why I decided not to use it in my build, but I think that you did a great job of implementing it here. Really the only thing I'm not a huge fan of in this build is the tribute bonus. I've tried working with something like this so many times, but it's very rare that tributing ever comes up and it's completely worthless in 1v1. Hopefully one of us can make the mechanic actually useful in most games someday! Also, I'm really curious: what brought you to your two possible ideas for the iron pagoda? Dismounting and conversion resistance never even crossed my mind is options, and if there's a piece of history behind it that I'm missing I'd love to hear more! Thank you so much for sharing my friend. Really a pleasant surprise to see your build here!
@@robbylava Great to hear from you. I believe I got the idea of dismounting from a mention of them fighting dismounted on Wikipedia, though from what I understand that was hardly uncommon for cavalrymen in history. I agree with the Tributes critique. What would have been entertaining would be a Guaizi Ma inspired UU of 2+ horsemen linked together with rope for fighting (like a chariot), though that does appear to be inaccurate.
Yeah, a ton of medieval cavalry all across the world fought dismounted! It's unfortunate that aoe2 can't really accurately capture the logistical necessity of such an action, since dismounting will almost always be a strict downside for units. But it's definitely a cool idea! There's probably some way to make it work, if not on a Jurchen UU then maybe for another civ. Having Guaizi Ma be a UU is such a wacky idea, really cool though! I tried to reflect the history, or rather the myth, of it as accurately as I could in my UT. Do you think that the design I chose for that worked okay?
@@robbylava I don't know if Guaizi Ma is exactly depicted, but I don't know if that is that important. I reckon dismounting could be useful for cavalry against spearmen, though that could be unbalanced. It would add historical and strategic depth though.
22:27 That's an interesting bonus, but I think it would be a bit hard to track for beginners and a bit convoluted with all the changes. And you could maybe, to represent the good hunters, have them instantly deposit a fraction of the food of an animal instantly when they kill them (only if killed by a villager). It would not only be a boost to their food gathering, but create interesting laming strategies. You could apply something similar to a fishing ship when taking the first from a group of fish (or once for each ship, instead of once per location, because I might be easier to avoid trickery by having one ship going from location to location and barely fishing in each spot). For farming, I don't have anything similar widout copying another civ.
The hunt bonus is a pretty cool idea. I know this is a very convoluted bonus, but I really want to find a way to capture this particular progression of theirs! If I just committed to a hunting thing, I think it might feel too similar to the Mongols even if this bonus played out quite differently. I think it's a really cool idea though
Probably the best way to balance the Fortified Houses would be a low ROF. If you have them fire slower than towers, and doing little damage, then they fall more squarely into the "defend or annoy" strategy. Sort of like a better house wall crossed with a worse tower rush.
That's such a good idea Johannes, makes me feel dumb for not thinking about it! And your summary of it as a better house while crossed with the worst Tower Rush is pretty much exactly what I was going for, really well put.
I think Iron Pagoda would be great as UT. Something like El Dorado for Mayans. Expensive imp UT that strongly boosts one unit basically changing its role. It could give massive armor to steppe lancers.
That would be a very valid way to do it! I tend to prefer the more excessive and convoluted routes myself, but for those who take a more conservative approach to design I think what you're proposing would make a ton of sense. Thanks for watching nwojski!
I love the idea of breaking down the Chinese. But then you'd probably have to change the main Chinese civ (the Han?) probably a lot more than what the Indian civ had to undergo. The current Chinese civ's identity relies on its versatility, which reflects the width of China as a whole. Or could that be still negotiated so it could avoid becoming just another archer civ? Also the house rush strat does sound completely broken XD You could do what a tower rush does except do it to every woodline, AND set it up in dark age; AND with a faster feudal time given the dark age food bonuses. I can hear the ragequits from here. How could you even counter that? Also I LOVE the idea of a hunting dog, would it be imaginable to have such a unit that you can task to auto-lure deer/boar or something like that? Great video altogether.
Hey, thank you so much for saying so Jack! Yeah, the Chinese getting subdivided would probably be the very top of my wish list for aoe2 changes in future. I think that a main Han civ would actually be able to keep the majority of its current identity! Maybe with a couple minor changes. And I personally don't mind getting another Archer civ out of the mix, if that's what ended up happening, because there's actually a lot fewer of those currently in the game and then either infantry or cavalry. You know, when you enumerate all the possible upsides of the house rush like that, I can kind of see what you mean. One potential fix that comes to my mind would be to make it so that the house can't actually shoot until Castle age. Do you think that would do the trick? I really like the core identity of the building and don't want to change it too much more than that, unless you can see another clean way of removing the cheese! Another commenter also mentioned really liking the hunting dog! I'll ask you the same thing I asked him: would you be interested in seeing a unit theorycraft for a hunting dog like I did for the footman and Arquebusier? I can see a whole bunch of civilizations getting them, even if the jurchens ended up getting a civ bonus for them! Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts Jack! I'm delighted to hear you liked the video.
If the Chinese ever got breaking down, then I feel there's no need to change the current Chinese civ that much apart from changing its name to Han or to Huaxia. The only civ bonus that might need to be changed or dropped is the +50% HP for Demo Ships, which might be more suitable for a potential new civ set in South China or SE Asia. And if after dropping the civ bonus for Demo Ships the navy of the new Han or Huaxia civ becomes weaker, we could improve it by making their UT Rocketry apply to Galleons as well (and such a change is quite historical since the medieval Chinese indeed used rockets on ships). The new UT Rocketry would give +2 attack to Chu Ko Nus, +2 attack to Galleons, and +4 to Scorpions.
Hey! Great to hear from you Wei, that sounds like an excellent proposal! The demo ship bonus always felt pretty useless to me anyways, and giving rocketry to the galley line not only feels very thematically appropriate but also would bring the Chinese Navy to the point where it was a serious threat, much like it was in history! Excellent suggestion overall my friend.
@@weifan9533add song crossbows as a cosmetic replacement to arbalest and add firelance / grenade infantry as replacement to skirms and give them hand cannons. Nerf something else
Stack the advance time bonus with the Italians age advancing discount and oof. that's a cheap feudal age. I'd be concerned about balance of that bonus with strong rushing civs.
You definitely have a fair point there Mike. Can you think of any possible ways to tone down the bonus a little bit while keeping the general idea? I really like how it ties into the civs theming and history, so I'd prefer to avoid a major change if possible, but if you have any balance ideas I'd really like to hear them!
Infantry can farm. I can imagine it now: General: what do you think you're doing?! Infantry: ehm, farming? General: and what do you think you should be doing? Infantry: ehm, not farming? General: I told you to destroy this farm. Infantry: oh, you misclicked, sir
Kudos for the female Monk. As for the neighbours, I believe the Mongols have/had a tradition of shamanesses, but it's nowhere near as ubiquitous as the Jurchen, more like two parallell traditions. But I might be mistaken. Anyone more knowledgable in Tengriism is welcome to contradict me if that's the case.
You were the one who suggested it Johannes, would never have thought of it without you! And great clarification, sounds to me like the female monk would be a Jurchen exclusive, which suits me just fine!
27:13 I believe other people already mentioned, but I think the capacity to attack could easily be abused, unless it has a minimum range, and then it would be practically useless in defence. Unless, maybe you make it's range quite small, but widout minimum range. Possibly enough to hit an archer that would be trying to attack a villager one tile beyond the other side. Another option, instead of giving an upgrade with an attack would be giving houses more armour/hp and the Hussite Wagon ability to reduce damage from projectiles that go above them, so archers would be less effective and then would be better as walls.
Reducing projectile damage is quite interesting, but I think what I came to in the recraft for this particular idea is much more viable without forcing a new mechanic. If you've gotten to the recrafts already, I'd love to hear what you think about how I fixed these up.
@@robbylava, I'm now watching your videos in chronological order. I saw two of your recrafts until now. So most of my criticisms won't be taking them into account, and I saw you solved a few of them in the recrafts.
Completely understandable! Again, I really am very appreciative of you watching through all of these and giving such fantastic feedback. I think you've given some of the best suggestions of any commenter I've ever had, and I am consistently looking forward to reading your ideas every time I see your name pop up in my notifications.
Nepalese/Tibetans/Tibetan Empire 600AD Himalayan architecture. Dark age yurts Cavalry/Slow but damage resistant CA and Monk civ. Capital - Lhasa Castle - Portalla Castle in Lhasa Tsenpo - divine king/ruler UU:Rtakhrab Pai’ dpung Lance cavalry archer - Cavalry archer with high melee armour that has a lance charge ability. Lancer charge - selecting the ‘’Lancer charge’’ button causes the unit to charge in formation and deal a large melee attack in a single thrust , lance then breaks and the unit has to retreat to engage from range once more (Cooldown of 2 min) Strong vs. infantry (ranged attack) and archers (Lance attack). Average vs. cavalry , weak vs Camel Riders and Monks. Shared unit (Shared with China) Showlin Monk. Can convert and defend it self with a staff whilst conversion is under cool down. (Long cool down due to meditation) Weak damage output but can absorb/doge incoming melee attacks . Trained in monasteries after researching Mahāvyutpatti. UU siege - instead of a trebuchet in the castle the Tibbetans can create the multiple bow (3 bow) arcuballista - Fires a massive ballista bolt with similar range and RoF as a trebuchet, but instead of an arch attack, the fast travelling bolt flies with a shallow arch (much like a skorpion). Does not do pass through damage, does slightly less building damage , a lot less anti wall damage but a lot more anti treb damage than a trebuchet. Good at targeting enemy siege units such as bombard cannon, mangonel line and trebs. Unique tech 1:Mahāvyutpatti - All gold resources become visible on map + Shaolin can be trained at monasteries. Unique tech 2: Himalayan herds Kumis -cost: 500 wood 100 gold you and your allies receive a large herd of yaks to harvest for fast plentiful food income . Willow leaf boarding armour - Cavalry gain +1 pierce armour , Heavy cavalry gain +2 pierce and +1 melee armour but move slower. Iron disk sternum armour - Cavalry archer +1 pierce armour / +1 Melee Armour. Medical conference - you and all allies gain herbal medicine. Tang monk expulsion - Monk exodus from Tang China causes your kingdom to receive x5 monks/Shaolin at your TCs + monk cost decreases by 25%. Civ bonus1:Lhasa - Town Center attack 60% faster Civ bonus 2: Starts battle and every age with two Yaks under town centre. Civ bonus3: Due to the high altitude of their cities, Enemy forces close to Tibetan buildings have reduced movement speed. Team bonus: CA + 1 melee armour. The soldiers of the Tibetan Empire wore Willow leaf armour and were proficient in the use of swords and lances, but were poor in archery. Barracks: Nepalese infantry Champion Halb no supplies. Archer line only has Archer. Cav Archer line full. Cav archers have more pierce armour but move slightly slower. Full skirmisher line. Parthian Tactics missing. Siege: Full onager line Full scorpion line. Only has capped ram. Stable: Steppe lancers Heavy cav line goes up to Cavalier. Camel + heavy camel. Light cav goes up to light cav only. Bloodlines No Husbandry Campaign in the north against China that culminates in the Battle of Talas715AD with Saracen allies . Wonder: Jokhang Temple The events of DE2 long predate any involvement of communist China in the Himalayas. Although the current diplomatic situation is rather troublesome , The Chinese just have to understand that this is an effort to showcase their region's history and not undermine it. More Historically correct options added to Asia.
I'd love to do a Tibetans build someday. Unfortunately I doubt that Microsoft will do it for fear of embargo by China, but that doesn't mean the civ doesn't 100% deserve to be included. This one is really cool, as your builds tend to be Ivan! The super-ballista UU seems WILD, what is the historical basis behind that!? I've never heard of it before! And the UT that reveals Gold on map is *so* cool, I adore that idea. The second Civ Bonus (free yaks) seems *very* strong, like Tatars + Incas but much better than either. Other than that, all these bonuses seem really cool! I'd actually say this is my single favorite build you've ever shared, Ivan. Really nicely done with this one!
Really appreciate you saying so Wei! I can tell you know your stuff when it comes to history, having knowledgeable people like you in the comments section is half of the fun of doing this. I learned so much just by reading your feedback! Great to have you on the channel my friend.
@@robbylava Thanks for your appreciation. It's fun to watch the videos you made on the hypothetical civs, please keep them up and I'm hoping to see more. Cheers!
Oh wow, another video so soon. Great job! Honestly I'm a bit reluctant to say this cause it's been a while since I watched all your videos but going off memory, I wanna say this is the best civ you've put together so far and it seems like it should be incredibly powerful as well. Overall great eco bonuses both for early game pressure (stable techs) and long term (honestly the farming bonus feels a bit unfair towards the Slavs lol). The fortified houses are neat gimmick that I could actually see myself using as a form of early defense (especially because I ten to be greedy and don't like full walling while going FC). I love both of them unique units, Iron Pagoda Lancer honestly simply cause Steppe Lancers are one of my favourite units in the game and getting a supercharged version would just be a treat. Tiehuopao on the other hand is amazing for a different reason. I LOVE when you get a unique unit, that occupies a completely new niche and remixes the mechanics of the game in a way that's natural yet produces something new. We have never had a ranged splash damage non-siege unit in the game. These are all terms and mechanics that exist but not in this confirugration and I think that's super cool. Team bonus is also just on point. Also feels like it could lead to some insane shenanigans with the Malay bonus. Unique techs are also pretty cool and an interesting way to give the civ an edge in battle, I particularly like the melee armor for ranged cav. Niru on the other hand I feel might end up something that's too strong in game. It is a finicky thing, but your units will tend to set this up just through their AI behavior and for super late game fights where it's big blobs coming to blows I think the bonus will just kinda tend towards a completely slaughter as the damage add ups over time. Either way! Keep up the good work.
YO! Great to hear from you again Crown! And I'm absolutely thrilled to hear that you like the build so much! I was definitely proud of this one, though it certainly has a lot more problems than I identified during design heheheh I've actually already done an update to this build in my newest video! It's the first installment in a Recraft series where I go back through previous builds and take comment feedback in fixing them. I'm _hoping_ the changes I made there address most of the problems! But either way, I'd absolutely love to hear what you think about that if you ever find the time. Regardless, if you have any other specific feedback on how I can improve the build I'd be delighted to hear it. Your thoughts on Niru in particular would be great that's one that a couple other commenters mentioned being uncertain about but I didn't include any changes to it in my Recraft. Thanks for taking the time to watch man! Hoping to have a video a week for the month of February at least, so there's plenty more coming!
Oh dear God I have SO MANY NOTES First off, I heartily agree with your sentiment that the Chinese deserve the Indians treatment, though I believe that it would even be possible to do this in a way that is not offensive to the government of the PRC, that is, as long as it doesn't include Uyghurs and Tibetans (though, looking at how Hearts of Iron 4 fared, I might be very wrong there). And, if that fails, we can always give them the Forgotten Empires treatment and make a mod that's so dominant that it is essentially an unofficial expansion, until it becomes an official expansion :D Either way, I would love to hear you discuss what civs you think the game should go in the direction of (new or split, doesn't matter) even without a full concept like this. You've touched on so many regions but all of them quite lightly (understandably), but I think there are meaningful discussions to be had about how to split Chinese while still at the civ high concept level. I also love the idea of a North Asian architecture set, and even your civ choices for it, though it might be awkward changing two fan-favorite civs with fan-favorite campaigns over to a new architecture set - it would have to be the best thing since sliced bread. One fairly obvious building that's already in the game is the Shrine from the Avar camp in the Honfoglalas scenario as the sprite for the Monastery, as well as Yurts for the Houses, naturally. I also really love the female Monks idea - I was sort of expecting a monk/monastery bonus to go with it. While you were talking about the possible campaigns I couldn't help but feel how while the individual stories might be a bit reductive at this point (unify the tribes and conquer China same as in Genghis Khan) or monotonous in terms of available matchups (a trait sadly shared by Sundjata and Yodit), but the overall history provided a really nice arc, with a legendary origin story of unification, the early glory days, the infamous fall and then the glimmer of a return to glory just beyond reach due to the timeframe. I know campaigns that don't focus on a single person are less popular, but I think they can work really well, and this (like the Hautevilles, to an extent) could be a campaign that shows the origin of a people and a dynasty that would last well into modern times, just hinting at the ~300 years of ruling China in the outro of the last mission. For an extra touch, you could get the narrator to be Aisin Gioro Puyi, in a sort of The Last Emperor vibe that would narratively be really cool, even if a bit unrealistic. Regarding the gameplay, I have mixed feelings - some of it I love, and other things I think would be hopelessly broken. In the pro corner, I love the upgrade to the Steppe Lancer, and I think that unit deserves more attention (e.g. - offtopic hot take - I think Lithuanians should also get it and it should be affected by their relic bonus). I worry, however, that with the low gold cost being reduced even more with their civ bonus, the final upgrade might be a bit oppressive. They would end up with 140hp, 17 attack and the same armor as a Paladin, while costing half the gold and only 10 food more. Think about how the Leitis is so strong with 4 relics that it's better to sell food for gold and make them rather than make Hussars (ua-cam.com/video/85nz7Is1CE0/v-deo.html) - something like that would only get exacerbated in a situation where the unit in question also has 1 range on their melee attack, 7 pierce armor, and also soft counter Paladins, and I worry it would be a one-stop-shop power unit that you could create even while using only the Market. I love giving common units unique upgrades, and I believe there is a way to sort them out, but as it stands I feel like they are a bit too powerful. Maybe that would be offset in a real game by your opponent knowing that you have to go there in Imperial and not letting you get there, but that's hard to know without playtesting. Maybe (and there isn't precedent for this so I know you'll love it) the upgrade could also make them more expensive? I think the Fortified House thing is really interesting - but also it seems easy to get wrong. E.g. if it has minimum range (I assume you meant like Towers do before Murder Holes) then it's not really so much of a deterrent (dealing as much damage as an Archer in Feudal) since it is 2x2. making it much more easy to destroy from melee range (see problems with Donjons for reference). It's a difficult thing to balance - if the upgrade time was shorter, I could see Houses placed behind palisades and upgraded to Fortified Houses if an enemy tries to break through, but in 75 seconds either the wall and the house are both gone or the enemy has moved elsewhere and you just wasted 25 stone. I can sort of see this being used to deter raids on exposed mines or woodlines, but without the ability to garrison, I'm not sure the damage poses much of a threat - it's essentially a weak tower. This leaves just the "stronger housewall" situation, which is probably not what you were going for. There is probably a way to make this work, but I guess we would need to playtest it. The food bonus is really unique - giving you an incentive to keep the game in Castle age is not something I think even exists in AoE2, though 25% seems a bit much again (Slavs' and Poles' 10% are considered very good eco bonuses). Maybe switch Dark and Feudal age around - under most build orders, the Sheep are eaten before the berries and deer, and I'm not sure whether you were going for making another civ with an obscure unique start. I can see how it makes sense from a historical perspective, but the gameplay makes it awkward. Also, having an economic incentivé to prolong Castle Age, while having no good answer to, for example, Knights, in Castle Age might work out, but it could just as easily feel like you have to give up the farming bonus in order to reach Iron Pagoda Lancers and be able to take good matchups. (I'm not sure how good CA with Niru would be against good cavalry civs.) Niru is really interesting - the standard medium cav and CA army and trebs would almost certainly benefit from this in most fights, automatically making Jurchen CA probably the best in the game This is certainly better than the Hussite Wagon "shooting over" mechanic, though it may have crossed over from "almost useless and difficult to effectively make use of" to "difficult to *not* make use of". I think the "weakness to maneuvering" might be a bit overstated, given the 3 best units of the Manchu are also cavalry and they don't lack Husbandry. Guaizi Ma is also something unique - you have proposed "aura" like effects before, even though there are none in AoE2 at the moment. +4 is a pretty high cap (though Frontier Guards has shown that it might not matter a huge amount in practice). I just want to see Steppe Lancers with 8 melee and 7 pierce armor beating Paladins. Maybe it could be +1 per multiple units instead of +1 for every unit since now it's effectively be the same as just a baseline +4, only dropping below when the enemy has already pretty much won. I like the versatility of the team bonus discount, though this would be one of the strongest team bonuses out there, if not the strongest of them all. 33% of 500 food is more than 150 food, so it's the Lithuanian civ bonus but for everyone. It wouldn't be about the faster age-up so much (you'd want more vills and a larger economy unless you're doing some ultra-fast rush), but having two scouts worth of resources for everyone on your team when you do hit Feudal would mean this would just be a must-have in all team games. Generally team bonuses are weaker than civ bonuses, but maybe if this was like 10-15% it would be balanced enough. Just as you were about to mention the unique unit I remembered another old strategy game I played - Empries: Dawn of the Modern World (not sure whether you're familiar with it, it's essentially a spinoff of the Empire Earth series), in which Koreans have access to a grenade thrower unit. I always found this fascinating and wondered if making that a unique Korean alternative to the Hand Cannoneer would work.The Tiehuopao seems strikingly similar to what I had in mind (though mine wasn't mounted), so the regional identity is strong there. Whether to think of them as a more mobile Mangonel or an Arambai with blast damage, it is definitely unique and fits the AoE2 design style and mechanics very well. However, also having the Siege Onager with Siege Engineers seems redundant in that case, and I think a good opportunity to distinguish between the Jurchen and the Mongols is hiding in plain sight here - instead of both being medium cavalry, cavalry archer and siege onager civs, the Tiehuopao could have additional damage against buildings, or cavalry doing more damage against buildings could be a civ bonus. This would fit with the theme of being able to conquer land, but not being as good defensively.
Continued in reply because the full comment was apparently returning an error Regarding tabled ideas I had lots of thoughts. Having military units be able to hunt sounds interesting in theory, but really, it would only be viable in the early game (as an alternative to luring deer for your Scout. Military units are expensive because they can fight, so not using them to fight means you are not getting value for the resources you spent, and having downtime enough to hunt with some units means you're not playing optimally, so I'm glad that was tabled. That could perhaps work in a different game, but for AoE2 I think it would be very difficult to get right. Infantry farming is another interesting one - paying more for essentially farming-only villagers that can defend themselves. I had a similar idea a while back for a civ bonus to give villagers a bonus against cavalry (pitchforks are sort of like pikes, right?), though infantry farming would probably be more of a late-game thing, like Supremacy. A food trickle while fighting really tickles my imagination, and might be a more practical alternative to the non-cumulative food bonus, though that would mean they had no early eco bonus, and judging by the Keshik gold generation numbers this would never come close to a real civ bonus. Archers getting an attack bonus against cavalry would be an interesting upset (the Genoese Crossbow is one of my favorite unique units) though in sufficient numbers they already kinda do, so this would probably diminish their weakness to cavalry greatly. Also, it looks to me like any bonus damage significant enough to make a difference in Feudal and Castle would be too much for late-game battles, whereas if it was only the foot archer line it would feel random and gimmicky and probably not worth it. Regarding the whole "hunting" thing, one civ bonus that is just lying around waiting to be used is having villagers fight with bows (like when they hunt) against enemies as well. This would be a great complement to the Fortified House and even if they benefited from the blacksmith pierce damage upgrades it wouldn't be OP I think. Regarding Hala Mukun - in Age of Empires 3 there is a shipment which lets you do something similar, so I guess great minds think alike? :D When you mentioned the Beile and the Hunting dog bells just started ringing in my head with cool ideas. For context, for a while now I've been entertaining the idea of a civ with a CA scout and CA available in Feudal, but I didn't know which civ that would be appropriate for (maybe Jurchens, or another North Asian civ?). Now, you said it wouldn't make sense to make an army of "leaders", so instead imagine starting with a Beile, a CA Hero as your scout that gets improved with every age-up. Sure, you could take on the enemy's scout, but you also don't want to lose your hero, and as strong as they are, one unit can't do that much damage. As for Hunting Dogs, my running idea was to have them cost 25 food, have the same stats as a Wolf (and pre-Loom villager), be created at TCs and take up no pop space. That way, you can make one if you get housed or something, and starting with one along with your hero would make for a powerful Dark Age, but it wouldn't be worth the TC time to make them in the early game, and they would just be too weak in the late game. Make them have the same LoS as a Sheep just so it isn't like you start with two scouts, but you can for example lure deer while your human scout is taking a peek at the enemy base. Together, they'd be kind of like your Explorer and their dog in AoE3 without being gimmicky for AoE2. I really (really) didn't intend to write a whole essay when I started this, but this just opened so many interesting discussions. Love to see your concepts, keep up the good work.
Good. God. Almighty. This is, without a doubt, the most thorough and engaging comment I've ever received. Fuck me, you've REALLY outdone yourself with this one Xastor! I... honestly have no idea how to respond to this. How to even begin responding to this! But I did have a thought: you have so many fantastic insights here, and it would be a crying shame to not get a chance to go through all of them, would you be at all up to continuing this conversation over email? Could even set a time to talk over discord or something, whichever you prefer mate. All I know is that this comment is a gold mine and I don't know if I could do it justice over youtube! Totally understand if you prefer not. But either way man, thank you so much for sharing all of this. I'm honestly overwhelmed, in a very good way! And I'm really grateful that you enjoy and engage with my work to the extent that you do.
I *wish* UA-cam still had DMs, but there is another way! In the About section of my channel you can access my email address when you're on PC. Shoot me a message there whenever you'd like!
A change i would make for balance reasons is that the cavalry grenadier should have a very big bonus against elephants, otherwise they'd have no answer to them. Also it makes sense, with elephants being so sensitive to sound a grenade would make them panic quite fast
That's quite an interesting idea Juan! I rarely think about anti elephant bonus damage, since the unit is so often unviable anyways just due to its prohibitive cost, but you're right that this civilization doesn't have a great way to deal with them. I'll definitely consider it, thanks for the suggestion man!
The main problem with dividing the original civs from the base game is that many players will probably see them as near sacred. They could get away with Indians, and hopefully in the future slavs; because they made them. The Chinese absolutely need to be split up. I mean how many people complain about the creators of gunpowder not having gunpowder units? The civ encompases way to big a timeframe, and people to be left alone Safest option in my opinion would be to keep the Chinese as they are, but make the fringe groups like you have here, and then make indipendant dynasties that could cover later iterations. There is already something of a precedent for having an earlier/later variation of peoples from a region with goths/teutons being something like that for Germany, Sicilians/Italians for Italy, and Franks/Burgundians for France, so why not do something like that with the Chinese?
In order to represent them going back and forth between nomadic and settled lifestyles, I wonder if one can choose one of the lifestyles when you age up to pack up and move the entire town to a different map location. Packed Town Centers are already a thing in-game so it’s not too much of a stretch. The trade off is that you can move to a more conducive position (retreat/advance) but your town is not working while you are moving. In exchange, you might get some defensive upgrades such as houses being automatically rebuilt as Fortified Houses to protect the eco after the move.
Not a bad suggestion at all! And man, you must be some sort of prophet, cuz the build I have releasing tomorrow uses an extremely similar idea... Regardless, I definitely plan on exploring nomadic factions being mobile like you suggest at some point in future. Right now I think it might be a bit too radical of a change for some audience members, but by introducing them to the idea slowly like with tomorrow's video I think I can set up for a big implementation at some point!
I don't think it's derivative at all! Even though I have many problems with aoe4, the game still has many great ideas we can play around with. And I wouldn't be surprised if that game in turn got the idea from some of the custom scenario ideas people came up with for Age of Empires 2 in the past! Plus, aoe4 only has it for the Mongols. I think it would be cool if it was an option for many different civilizations! But I won't get too ahead of myself yet.
How does the ''Niru'' tech work? What constitutes a projectiles damage increase when flying over a unit ? A projectile moving over magnets ,like a railgun makes sense but , what is the science of your ''Niru'' tech? One similar tech I wish to see added to the Franks is : Added Bonus: Spotters - Trebuchets located next to friendly castles gain improved accuracy. Is this similar to what you have in mind with ''Niru''? ''Niru'' being a commander that aids in the accuracy ,hence damage of projectiles?
Great question Ivan! Yes, you're kind of on the right track with that. My idea was that since Jurchen battalions trained together during hunting parties and were famed for their coordination, the Niru tech was representing a bowman's ability to similarly synergize with fellow members of their regiment on the battlefield. How does that logic sound to you?
so these are cool, but a lot of these bonuses exist on other civs, or are multiple bonuses all in one (the cheaper stable techs is burgundians, the food bonuses are stolen from mongols and franks. Cheaper cav archers is a Huns bonus.
Hey! Yeah, the burgundians one was a complete mistake on my part. I made a recraft video somewhat recently where I updated a bunch of this civilizations features, including completely changing the copied bonus and also updating the incremental food gathering bonus. I would disagree with you though that the Gold discount is too similar to the Huns. Plenty of civilization bonuses have minor overlap, and I think that this one (between it also giving los and applying to the lancer as well as the CA) is different enough to stand alone.
I could not agree more that the Huns and steppe peoples should get a new architecture. Steppe tribes Nomadic architecture set for the Nomad civs, Mongols get Yurt houses and steppe Nomad architecture. Tartars + Cumans get Yurts for dark age houses and Huns too get steppe Nomad architecture. The Mongol Yurts should have less HP but also be much cheaper. With their Unique tech 'Nomads'' if their cheap , low HP Yurts goes down, then they need not create more. It will be perfect. Armenians should get the current Tatar extra Hill bonus damage in exchange for faster moving CA + Tatar, Mongol and Hun scouts have the ability to lame enemies hunt/livestock.(Scorched earth tactics) These civs should also get to train op to 5 hunting wolves in the Dark age (Cost 25 food)
I think your idea for Mongol houses could be a really good addition to the nomads tech. Right now it's so weak, I think making Mongol houses much cheaper, even nearly free, would still be very fair! I've had a couple other comments say that hunting dogs seem like a really fun unit to add to the game. I could see all sorts of civilizations getting them beyond just to the nomads! Might be a good topic for a later video.
43:44 I like this idea, but I agree it doesn't fits the playstyle. For a long time I imagined a civ that had castles being able to produce villagers, and in this case you don't even need to reduce the creation speed, considering it is harder to build than the TC.
Great design with perfect historical accuracy！I really like your design of Jurchens eco bonus, which reflects really well on the changes of their life style（also quite unique and fine to play）. But personally I think Khitans can not be well represented by the current Mongols civ. They also deserve to be an independent civ just like Jurchens in the potential China-themed expansion.
Hey! Thank you so much for saying so Ice Box! Historical accuracy is something I really strive for, so hearing you say that I nailed it feels amazing! Couldn't agree more with you on the Khitans , that's definitely a civilization on my list. I'd love to hear your thoughts when I eventually get around to them! And until then, I really hope you enjoy the other builds on the channel. Great to have you!
I don't think the strength of the feudal age cheaper cost is in getting there sooner- it's getting there at the same time, but with more resources to do things with. While it would allow for a high level very fast rush, it's going to more often and more reliably be used to make a standard rush much much stronger.
That's definitely true. I ended up pretty heavily reworking the civilization in two different recraft videos, so if you get a chance to take a look I'd love to hear what you think about the New directions I've taken!
@@robbylava Ah yes, that did come up again. I tend to listen to youtube while doing other stuff, which is a weird combo considering I like youtube channels that require my full attention a lot of the time. The more in depth my comments have gotten, the more I've had to go back and review and stop and think. As far as the Jurchens getting reworked, I definitely think pulling that bonus away from a team bonus to a civ only bonus makes it something that can be designed around quite nicely. The rest I don't quite have organized thoughts on.
No problem at all man! I do the exact same thing when I listen to UA-cam, always multitasking. Never feel like you have to address every single part of a build! You give such fantastic feedback as is I really could never ask for more
It is true that the Tatars are currently used as an umbrella civilization for peoples of the Asian steppe, but I don't think it has to be that way forever. Definitely interested in doing more steppe civilizations myself!
cheaper feudal age: I like to play Italians, and having a cheaper feudal age doesn't really make feudal come any earlier for them (I'm not aware of any Italian builds that specifically take advantage of the cheaper feudal to age up earlier). It's more dependent on whether you've established an economy than the cost in my experience. That said, I think there are some civs that would be able to use the bonus to go up a few vils earlier, but getting up earlier does mean collecting fewer resources. At most levels, it would be equivalent to getting extra food upon hitting Feudal, but a skilled enough player would probably be able to make use of the earlier feudal. That said, I think it would be comparable in power to a Lithuanian pre-mill drush: dangerous because of how early it is, but not game-breaking by any means. Hunting Dog: I like the idea of a hunting dog that could be trained from a TC. It would be a fabulous bonus even if it is mostly useless. It would usually cost more in TC time than it would be worth, but would have some niche uses (like nomad - gaining a scout could be huge there, particularly since your opponents would have to either use a villager to scout or invest into a barracks/militia), and it might be useful for killing off a weakened enemy scout (or pushing deer, pulling a boar). Not every bonus needs to be powerful to be included (Celt sheep bonus is a great example). Another option would be training the hunting dog from houses, which might lead to a hunting dog rush strategy.
You make a really good point about the feudal advance, Jason. I see a couple other commenters are quite concerned about it, but you make a pretty convincing case for why it's not a tremendous worry. If it were to hypothetically be overpowered, how would you personally nerf this particular team bonus without neutering it? And I'm really glad you like the hunting dog idea! Your idea to have it build from houses is fantastic, by the way. I could see either that or a town center version being equally valid! Come to think of it, do you think that the hunting dog is an interesting enough idea to merit being a theorycrafted unit video like I did with the Arquebusier recently? They certainly existed in a great many societies, even though the Jurchens were particularly famous for it (and could maybe receive a unique bonus for theirs). Thanks for the comment man, excellent insights as always. Really hope you enjoyed the build!
@@paweborkowski6959 Yep! That was pretty much exactly my inspiration for the mechanic. Definitely a tricky one to use, but I have a feeling that this offensive version will be much easier to use than the defensive Hussite Wagons.
@@robbylava You're right. It should be easier to use. A Hussite Wagon is slow so the only way I see it being used as intended is when a player is retreating with their army, and then decides to stop and fight (like a faint retreat of sorts). Whereas cavalry usually precedes archers so yeah, I see how offensive overhead projectiles would be present in games :)
I'm glad I could explain it at all coherently! I do wish the hussite wagons defensive functionality were better though. It's such an iconic unit, and I really think it could be extremely cool if it could be re-tooled in some way!
The only 2 firm scenarios for inclusion of jurchens in older campaigns are Genghis Khan 3 and Kaesong..... oh, you don't know what Kaesong is? A cut scenario from The Forgotten expansion. Imo, should be re-implemented. It features the Jin Dynasty, which is Jurchen. Aside from that jurchens are closer to Siberians than Mongols or Turks. So there isn't really a place they can replace other civs in. They don't really need to, imo.
I never heard of that before, no! Super cool piece of trivia, I'm surprised I didn't come across it while researching for this video. I would generally agree with you that a civilization doesn't need to slot into existing campaigns to merit inclusion. Cool when it happens, but far from necessary! And you're very right, while I state here that the Jurchens would be part of a Chinese split, they're honestly about as close to Mongols as they are Chinese. Very much their own people!
I think I have to give a small criticism, you mentioned you like complexity, and a few times I see you proposing complex mechanics in some civs, but I think that the the way you sometimes aply it is by being convoluted or having things that are hard to track. AoE2 is already a quite complex game, but it is based in relatively simple principles. You can think of various games that are very simple in their rules and mechanics, but very complex in strategy, like Chess and Go. Ideally, you should try to create complexity with simple mechanics. The Burgandians can research their eco techs one age earlier with a discount, just this creates a series of choices about how much each of those should be researched early if it would delay ageing up or doing other stuff.
I can see where you're coming from of course. But for me, complexity has a number of purposes (beyond just being fun). Though Age of Empires is quite a complex game, it is also a very streamlined game, which is something that I think spoils a lot of the beauty and joy that it brought to so many of us when we first discovered it. Naturally more complexity makes things harder to be played at a competitive level, but I am firmly in the camp that believes games should be designed for a casual audience first and foremost, or at the very least should not be held back because of the competitive scene. Happy to discuss this topic further if you like, but I don't want to type out a massive essay just yet. Either way, in summary, I think complexity is good for quite a few reasons, but over the last year and a bit I have actually updated my style to be more in line with conventional mechanics (though for a very particular reason). Interested to hear what you think once you get to some of my more recent uploads!
@@robbylava , my point is about creating complexity with simple mechanics. The Saracen market bonus is simple and easy for casual players, but pros can also create more advanced strategies. The Gurjaras bonus of garrisoning herdables in the mill. Is it better to have the food fast and advance quickly? Or get a lot more food slowly? There is an opportunity cost with both options. The challenge is: How to create complex decision making with something I can describe in 1 or 1,5 lines of texts? I forgot to which civ you gave the bonus of getting a single university tech instantly for free. Most of the time people will get ballistics, but the opponent can't assume it, because maybe I know they are coming to attack me and I decided to get fortified wall to gain time while I send my army to counterattack them. Or I can do a fast imp and get Chemistry for free and go for gunpowder. It is a simple bonus, but it creates complex decisions. Something that is almost never used in the game are things that have a drawback (exept bonuses that takes away some resources as compensation). I think that UT that have a drawback, so the decision to use them or not becomes more strategic is interesting and it is something I would like to see. (Flemish revolution is the only one I can think off) Let's say a tech that doubles the life of castles, but increases their cost by 3 times (including repairing), if you are about to loose the center of the map in a Gold hush, do you pick the tech? Because it might help to keep the control, but it would be a lot harder to build more castles.
A Chinese breakdown is also among my top wish lists for AoE2. Apart from the Jurchens, I'm eager to see the Tanguts and the Dians in the breakdown. The Tanguts would represent the Western Xia kingdom in Northwest China (1038 - 1227), whereas the Dians would represent the Nanzhao and Dali kingdoms in Southwest China (738 - 1253) as well as the numerous Yue, Pu, Bo, Man, Li, and Liao tribes that used to exist in this region. The Tanguts could be a Camel and Monk civ, whereas the Dians could be another Archer or Infantry civ. And apart from China I think SE Asia deserves more civs as well, I could see the addition of at least 3 SE Asian civs, the Chams, the Mons, and the Siamese.
Wow, those are some excellent ideas Wei! I knew about the Nanzhao but I never knew the Dian were the ethnic group behind them. Totally agree with you overall that East Asia needs more love! The Tanguts and Liao ( or Khitan) are absolutely on my list, as are the Chams and Thai, but I know very little about the Mons. What were they up to during the AOE2 relevant time frame? Great hearing from you man! Can't wait to hear what you think about some of the other builds on the channel.
@@robbylava Well, technically speaking the Dian was an old exonym used by the Sinitic people of the Han era to refer to the native peoples of Yunnan, which predates the onset of AoE 2 at around 476 AD. Though I think such a name could still be applied in the medieval period because there was continuity in Yunnan from the time of the Dian to the onset of Nanzhao in 738 AD. The Mons did a lot of things in AoE 2's timeline, they founded some of the earliest kingdoms in Mainland SE Asia such as the Haripunchai, the Thaton, or the Dvaravati, all of which fell within AoE 2's timeframe. And they were the first Theravada Buddhists in SE Asia (Khmer and Cham were Hinduists).
Good clarification. I'm glad I know now! They are absolutely going to be going on my list. If you were to pick one civilization to further than Chinese subdivision, which one would you wants to see Wei?
@@robbylava I'd want to see the Dians, and maybe the Tanguts. For the Dians I've already laid out a theory-crafted version on the AoE 2 forum, I'm not sure how feasible or suitable is my design, I'll share it with you below: The Dian Civ Type Archer and Monk Civ Bonuses: Mills can train water buffaloes that cost no pop space for 50 food each, starting from the Feudal Age (basically you pay 50 food but get 150 food in return) Gains +10 gold for each successful conversion (pushes for aggressive monk play in the Castle Age) Foot archers move 5%/10%/15% faster in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age (only applies to the archer line and not to skirmishers. The base speed for an archer is 0.96, and after speed boosts in the Imperial Age it will have a speed around 1.1, but judging by the fact that we have some infantry units going 1.2 and 1.3, I don’t think this will break the meta) Team Bonus: Monastery +2 LOS (8 instead of the normal 6) Unique Techs: Castle Age: Lacquered Leather Armor Team unique units +1 melee armor (Food 200 Gold 250) Imperial Age: Tea and Horse Road Team players can train trash Knights at their markets for 120 Food each (The tech costs Food 700 and Gold 750. The market can only train Knights and not Cavaliers or Paladins, and the Knights trained at the markets have basic stats and are not affected by Blacksmith upgrades, so don’t expect to defend your trade lines with these trash Knights only, but they can still help somewhat against raids in urgent situations.) Unique Units Castle Unique Unit: Luojuzi, a skirmisher with the speed akin to an Eagle Warrior. It does not have an anti-archer bonus but instead has a small bonus attack against cavalry and camels, and unlike normal skirmishers this one costs gold to train. Barracks Unique Unit: Raeu Tribesman, a infantry unit that has two modes, a gatherer mode and a infantry mode. The default mode is infantry but it can be turned into a gatherer manually. When in gatherer mode it can gather all resources though it only drops the resources at the Barracks and not at other drop sites unlike Villagers. It's available at the Castle Age and does not have an elite upgrade. Haven't really thought of their tech tree. Please feel free to comment and provide suggestions to my Dian civ design, thanks.
WOW, that is an exceptionally creative build Wei! You have some really great ideas in there. I love the unique unit that can switch between soldier and gatherer, I did something very similar in my Dutch build and was considering something like that for the Jurchens. Tea and horse road is also fantastic, as is the conversion gold bonus. Frankly, the only one I don't like is the team bonus, which feels a little bit underpowered, but other than that I genuinely think every single thing you've put here is creative, engaging, and practically applicable! Can you give me some information on the history behind the two unique units? The skirmisher one in particular seems really cool! Thanks so much for sharing my friend. I have a policy where I never reference other people's builds during my civ design, but it's going to be pretty tough not to reference this one when tackling the Dian myself!
I'm really glad that game did them justice! Do you see any ways that my build could benefit from some of the choices eu4 made with the Jurchens? I've had a couple commenters recommend that game to me, just hard finding time for a grand strategy game with a toddler to take care of.
@@robbylava the game has recently added monuments and they didn't forget about manchuria, also the manchu banner mechanic seems inspiring considering aoe2 units. anyways, i hope u find the time to give eu4 a try since it really is a cool game but well, having a toddler is tolerable too
Ah one of the northern dynasties Genghis curbstomped. This should be interesting Edit: Oh jeez, I didn't know they founded the Qin Dynasty. Talk about a comeback.
Seriously! I knew they founded the Jin going into this project, but I had no idea they were responsible for the Qing as well! Definitely elevates them from a fluke to a serious player. Hope you enjoyed the build, Phoenix!
@@robbylava Kinda shows why doing research on these things is so important. You never know when a group that seems like a bit player at first might surprise you. Kinda makes me wonder what a Tanguts civ would be like. (The red [and also green] faction in Genghis 3)
Absolutely! The Tanguts are certainly on my list as well as the Khitans. My hope with both is to provide some more North Asian nomad civilizations that play differently from the other ones we have in the game, ideally one of them will even get an infantry focus if the history matches up enough!
@@robbylava Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if the Tanguts fit the infantry focus. Granted I don’t know much about them, but most of what I heard doesn’t bring up cavalry much
HOLY SHIT DUDE, I would LOVE to see that! Where can I find it? Would you be able to send a link to my email? You can find it in the about section of my channel if you're viewing on pc!
Oh fantastic! I see the email in my inbox now -- apologies if it takes me a couple days to get back to you, if you don't hear from me for over a week feel free to give me another poke to make sure it hasn't been buried! Thanks again for sharing this my friend. Very excited to take a look through!
I was also concerned about the strong combinations, that a cheaper age up bonus would bring, but maybe just reduce the percentage until it is balanced. More importantly I support the suggestion of their strong early game food eco that does not stay as a permanent boost you can carry over to imp. It is important for a civ to go through different stages during the game, to create more interesting dynamics when playing against other civs. Since it is a bonus, i.e. something you get for free, I don't see why it would necessarily last forever. In a way you could argue that many boni, like the mongol hunt or the celts wood collection have signifacantly lost their edge in the later stages of the game as well. That said, I am not a fan of a fighting unit gathering food and having a military unit being able to hunt (even like a khmr farmer, without actually carrying it to a drop off point) feels like the better option to me, if one of these boni were to be added to a civ. (also, it feels less cannibalistic - even if that is of course not the idea behind this bonus ;)
Glad you like the idea behind the bonus Foxy! I semi recently made a Recraft video where I redid some of my old builds, and the Jurchens got some fairly substantial changes in that! I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I updated them if you ever get a chance to watch that one. And even with those changes, there's still definitely more to do for the civilization! I plan on doing recraft videos fairly regularly in future, so any of your suggestions on my old builds will still be able to influence how they look going forwards!
I really like the idea of breaking down what I tend to call the "ragbag civilizations". One of those are also the Celts, who could be broken down into civs like the Gaels, the Scots or the Welsh (or some other I haven't mentioned). I also suggest that you cover some Mesoamerican civs as well. I'm sure you could do something awesome with the Toltecs or the Zapotecs for example. :)
Couldn't agree with you more, Lif! "Ragbag" really is the word for it. It's funny you mentioned the Celts, as I have a project plan for them not terribly far in the future! Being Scot/Welsh myself, it's a subdivision I care quite a lot about! I 110% plan on doing some mesoamerican civs at some point too! I know less about them, so I've shied away in favor of projects that are easier to research, but if you have any that you particularly like me to tackle I would be very interested in taking the plunge! Thank you so much for the words of encouragement man. Really glad you're enjoying the projects!
I'm really glad to know about your plans for future theorycrafted civilizations! While I'm not an expert on Mesoamerican civs, I do know some stuffs about them. If I had to suggest you one civ to tackle, I think it would be the Zapotecs. Long story short, the Zapotecs originated in the Valley of Oaxaca (in the South of modern-day Mexico), where their civilization flourished at least as early as the 700's BCE, and lasted up until the Spanish colonization in the 1520's. As such, they have a very long History, spanning across almost the entirety of the Age of Empires 2 timeframe. A Zapotec campaign could feature both the Aztecs and the Spanish as antagonists (they repelled successfully the Aztecs, and later rebelled several times against Spanish rule).
Speaking about the Celts, your project for them already sounds really exciting! Does it means that you would theorycrafted a revamped version of the William Wallace campaign as well? And what do you think about a potential Pictish civ? Personally, I think they could represent the Early Medieval timeframe, and give a less anachronical context for the woad warriors to exist. ^^ As for myself, as someone who grew up in Normandy, I would really appreciate the Normands to be their own civ as well, considering how big of a mark they left on Western Europe during the Middle Age. Other ragbags civilizations that I think deserve subdivisions includes the Turks and the Persians. As such, they could be broken down into the Sassanids (the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire), the Ottomans (since the Turks currently in-game are mostly based on the Ottomans), the Seljukids (who are basically Turko-Persian) and the Ghurids (an Indo-Persian Sultanate).
That's an excellent starting point for me, thank you so much Lif! My project list is starting to get a little full, so it may be a couple months before I can do a video on the Zapotecs, but I will absolutely put them on there. Thank you so much for the suggestion my friend! Really hope to see you in the comment section of some of my future videos.
I would 100% support an updated William Wallace campaign! According to an aunt of mine who's really into genealogy he's actually an ancestor of mine (probably an exaggeration, but absolutely huge if true). The Picts are an interesting one! Though they definitely fall within the aoe2 relevant time frame, their general theming and technology level seems to fit aoe1 a lot more. I'll look into them though! And even if I don't tackle them as part of the celt subdivision I might revisit them if I ever get into aoe1 civs someday. You and I are very aligned on the ragbag front it would seem! Some others I would throw in there include, but are not limited to, the saracens (who I've started on already), the Huns/Mongols, the Slavs, the Italians, the Goths, and the Vikings (who I've also done a little bit on). Certainly enough options to keep me busy with videos for the next decade or so! It's so funny that you mentioned the Normans, they were one of the first civs that I thought of when I first started considering what was left to be added to AOE2. I don't know an awful lot about them, but if you have any knowledge about them or would be interested in participating, would you be interested in doing a collab with me?
I can see why you'd think that. I tried to make them as different as I could from the other nomads, with a more defensive playstyle and some gunpowder. Plus, it felt like a good way to start my subdivision of the Chinese. But I don't think I will be making another nomad civilization for a good while after this one. Are there any civilizations that you'd like to see in particular? Thanks for watching man!
Firstly, Jurchens are one of the civs I most want in the game at this stage, along with Tanguts (if we don't get Tibetans). So really looking forward to this :D
Love the staggered eco bonuses. It's a great way to show a transition from steppe nomads to settled peoples. Very fiddly for a player to use ingame, but Tatars are similar in their fiddly bonuses, so it's not that insane.
Tiehuopao looks like a fun unit as well. And I love Steppe Lancers, so more love to them is always good to see :D
Hey, thank you so much for saying so tyranitar! I'm really glad you liked how this one turned out! And thanks for the vote of confidence on the staggered Eco bonuses -- a bunch of other commenters have made some great points about how they could be better balanced, but I really love the theming of it even if it would be a little tricky to use.
Great to hear that you enjoyed the build my friend! Always good to see you in the comment section.
They also have the oldest hand cannon archeological find
Jurchens! Jurchens! Jurchens!
I'm pumped since they were one of the first civs I theorycrafted myself. But yeah, Chinese could be broken into Han, Jurchens, Khitans, Tibetans, and Bai (Nanzhao). And I agree, the pirate raid on Japan could be a super fan single level campaign.
My concept was roughly this:
Jurchens: cavalry civ
-Receive a pig whenever a Mill is built
-Bloodlines, Husbandry free
-Cavalry archers fire a second weak projectile
Team Bonus
-Tribute fee reduced by 10%
UU: Iron Pagoda Horseman (super heavy cavalry that can dismount/remount or super heavy cavalry with high conversion resistance)
UT: Shamans (monks heal 150% faster), Eight Banners (spearmen, skirmishers, and light cavalry take half population space)
Architecture: East Asian
Wonder: Mukden Palace
Campaign: Aguda
Really shows how our design philosophies differ. I definitely opt more for simplicity. But I really like the synergy of the two unique techs. My main complaint is that I think there are too many cavalry bonuses for this civ. Other than that, it was sweet to see how we both approached them.
Great to hear from you Guru! And HEY, so sick that you did a build for this too! You're absolutely right, it's fascinating seeing how our designs contrast from each other. But despite yours being a lot more clean and conventional and mind being a lot more wacky, there are a lot of distinct similarities that are really cool to see!
I think my favorite piece of your build here is the Eight Banners UT. It takes the civ in a very different direction from mine, but it's a great effect and a really fitting name! The eight banners reforms came in right at the tail end of the AOE 2 relevant time frame, hence why I decided not to use it in my build, but I think that you did a great job of implementing it here. Really the only thing I'm not a huge fan of in this build is the tribute bonus. I've tried working with something like this so many times, but it's very rare that tributing ever comes up and it's completely worthless in 1v1. Hopefully one of us can make the mechanic actually useful in most games someday!
Also, I'm really curious: what brought you to your two possible ideas for the iron pagoda? Dismounting and conversion resistance never even crossed my mind is options, and if there's a piece of history behind it that I'm missing I'd love to hear more!
Thank you so much for sharing my friend. Really a pleasant surprise to see your build here!
@@robbylava Great to hear from you. I believe I got the idea of dismounting from a mention of them fighting dismounted on Wikipedia, though from what I understand that was hardly uncommon for cavalrymen in history. I agree with the Tributes critique. What would have been entertaining would be a Guaizi Ma inspired UU of 2+ horsemen linked together with rope for fighting (like a chariot), though that does appear to be inaccurate.
Yeah, a ton of medieval cavalry all across the world fought dismounted! It's unfortunate that aoe2 can't really accurately capture the logistical necessity of such an action, since dismounting will almost always be a strict downside for units. But it's definitely a cool idea! There's probably some way to make it work, if not on a Jurchen UU then maybe for another civ.
Having Guaizi Ma be a UU is such a wacky idea, really cool though! I tried to reflect the history, or rather the myth, of it as accurately as I could in my UT. Do you think that the design I chose for that worked okay?
@@robbylava I don't know if Guaizi Ma is exactly depicted, but I don't know if that is that important. I reckon dismounting could be useful for cavalry against spearmen, though that could be unbalanced. It would add historical and strategic depth though.
Oh yeah, totally agree. If you don't mind, I'm going to save that idea for a future civilization build!
22:27
That's an interesting bonus, but I think it would be a bit hard to track for beginners and a bit convoluted with all the changes.
And you could maybe, to represent the good hunters, have them instantly deposit a fraction of the food of an animal instantly when they kill them (only if killed by a villager).
It would not only be a boost to their food gathering, but create interesting laming strategies.
You could apply something similar to a fishing ship when taking the first from a group of fish (or once for each ship, instead of once per location, because I might be easier to avoid trickery by having one ship going from location to location and barely fishing in each spot).
For farming, I don't have anything similar widout copying another civ.
The hunt bonus is a pretty cool idea. I know this is a very convoluted bonus, but I really want to find a way to capture this particular progression of theirs! If I just committed to a hunting thing, I think it might feel too similar to the Mongols even if this bonus played out quite differently. I think it's a really cool idea though
Probably the best way to balance the Fortified Houses would be a low ROF. If you have them fire slower than towers, and doing little damage, then they fall more squarely into the "defend or annoy" strategy. Sort of like a better house wall crossed with a worse tower rush.
That's such a good idea Johannes, makes me feel dumb for not thinking about it! And your summary of it as a better house while crossed with the worst Tower Rush is pretty much exactly what I was going for, really well put.
I think Iron Pagoda would be great as UT. Something like El Dorado for Mayans. Expensive imp UT that strongly boosts one unit basically changing its role. It could give massive armor to steppe lancers.
That would be a very valid way to do it! I tend to prefer the more excessive and convoluted routes myself, but for those who take a more conservative approach to design I think what you're proposing would make a ton of sense.
Thanks for watching nwojski!
i'm Korean, and i totally agree for this. REALLY need Jurchens
I love the idea of breaking down the Chinese. But then you'd probably have to change the main Chinese civ (the Han?) probably a lot more than what the Indian civ had to undergo. The current Chinese civ's identity relies on its versatility, which reflects the width of China as a whole. Or could that be still negotiated so it could avoid becoming just another archer civ?
Also the house rush strat does sound completely broken XD You could do what a tower rush does except do it to every woodline, AND set it up in dark age; AND with a faster feudal time given the dark age food bonuses. I can hear the ragequits from here. How could you even counter that?
Also I LOVE the idea of a hunting dog, would it be imaginable to have such a unit that you can task to auto-lure deer/boar or something like that?
Great video altogether.
Hey, thank you so much for saying so Jack! Yeah, the Chinese getting subdivided would probably be the very top of my wish list for aoe2 changes in future.
I think that a main Han civ would actually be able to keep the majority of its current identity! Maybe with a couple minor changes. And I personally don't mind getting another Archer civ out of the mix, if that's what ended up happening, because there's actually a lot fewer of those currently in the game and then either infantry or cavalry.
You know, when you enumerate all the possible upsides of the house rush like that, I can kind of see what you mean. One potential fix that comes to my mind would be to make it so that the house can't actually shoot until Castle age. Do you think that would do the trick? I really like the core identity of the building and don't want to change it too much more than that, unless you can see another clean way of removing the cheese!
Another commenter also mentioned really liking the hunting dog! I'll ask you the same thing I asked him: would you be interested in seeing a unit theorycraft for a hunting dog like I did for the footman and Arquebusier? I can see a whole bunch of civilizations getting them, even if the jurchens ended up getting a civ bonus for them!
Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts Jack! I'm delighted to hear you liked the video.
If the Chinese ever got breaking down, then I feel there's no need to change the current Chinese civ that much apart from changing its name to Han or to Huaxia. The only civ bonus that might need to be changed or dropped is the +50% HP for Demo Ships, which might be more suitable for a potential new civ set in South China or SE Asia. And if after dropping the civ bonus for Demo Ships the navy of the new Han or Huaxia civ becomes weaker, we could improve it by making their UT Rocketry apply to Galleons as well (and such a change is quite historical since the medieval Chinese indeed used rockets on ships). The new UT Rocketry would give +2 attack to Chu Ko Nus, +2 attack to Galleons, and +4 to Scorpions.
Hey! Great to hear from you Wei, that sounds like an excellent proposal! The demo ship bonus always felt pretty useless to me anyways, and giving rocketry to the galley line not only feels very thematically appropriate but also would bring the Chinese Navy to the point where it was a serious threat, much like it was in history! Excellent suggestion overall my friend.
@@weifan9533add song crossbows as a cosmetic replacement to arbalest and add firelance / grenade infantry as replacement to skirms and give them hand cannons. Nerf something else
Stack the advance time bonus with the Italians age advancing discount and oof. that's a cheap feudal age.
I'd be concerned about balance of that bonus with strong rushing civs.
You definitely have a fair point there Mike. Can you think of any possible ways to tone down the bonus a little bit while keeping the general idea? I really like how it ties into the civs theming and history, so I'd prefer to avoid a major change if possible, but if you have any balance ideas I'd really like to hear them!
Infantry can farm. I can imagine it now:
General: what do you think you're doing?!
Infantry: ehm, farming?
General: and what do you think you should be doing?
Infantry: ehm, not farming?
General: I told you to destroy this farm.
Infantry: oh, you misclicked, sir
My new favorite comment
@@robbylava It's yours then :) so glad to find this channel today.
I am honored and delighted to have you here too Pawel
🤣😂🤣😂
2:41
There was the time the Mongols tried but two convenient storms destroyed most of their fleet in each attempt.
Indeed! Aided and abetted by Korea who they had recently conquered
Kudos for the female Monk. As for the neighbours, I believe the Mongols have/had a tradition of shamanesses, but it's nowhere near as ubiquitous as the Jurchen, more like two parallell traditions. But I might be mistaken. Anyone more knowledgable in Tengriism is welcome to contradict me if that's the case.
You were the one who suggested it Johannes, would never have thought of it without you! And great clarification, sounds to me like the female monk would be a Jurchen exclusive, which suits me just fine!
Another great one!
Hey! Thank you for saying so brother! Really glad you liked it.
27:13
I believe other people already mentioned, but I think the capacity to attack could easily be abused, unless it has a minimum range, and then it would be practically useless in defence.
Unless, maybe you make it's range quite small, but widout minimum range.
Possibly enough to hit an archer that would be trying to attack a villager one tile beyond the other side.
Another option, instead of giving an upgrade with an attack would be giving houses more armour/hp and the Hussite Wagon ability to reduce damage from projectiles that go above them, so archers would be less effective and then would be better as walls.
Reducing projectile damage is quite interesting, but I think what I came to in the recraft for this particular idea is much more viable without forcing a new mechanic. If you've gotten to the recrafts already, I'd love to hear what you think about how I fixed these up.
@@robbylava, I'm now watching your videos in chronological order.
I saw two of your recrafts until now.
So most of my criticisms won't be taking them into account, and I saw you solved a few of them in the recrafts.
Completely understandable!
Again, I really am very appreciative of you watching through all of these and giving such fantastic feedback. I think you've given some of the best suggestions of any commenter I've ever had, and I am consistently looking forward to reading your ideas every time I see your name pop up in my notifications.
@@robbylava, tank you, I'm happy you like them.
Nepalese/Tibetans/Tibetan Empire 600AD
Himalayan architecture. Dark age yurts
Cavalry/Slow but damage resistant CA and Monk civ.
Capital - Lhasa
Castle - Portalla Castle in Lhasa
Tsenpo - divine king/ruler
UU:Rtakhrab Pai’ dpung Lance cavalry archer - Cavalry archer with high melee armour that has a lance charge ability. Lancer charge - selecting the ‘’Lancer charge’’ button causes the unit to charge in formation and deal a large melee attack in a single thrust , lance then breaks and the unit has to retreat to engage from range once more (Cooldown of 2 min)
Strong vs. infantry (ranged attack) and archers (Lance attack). Average vs. cavalry , weak vs Camel Riders and Monks.
Shared unit (Shared with China) Showlin Monk. Can convert and defend it self with a staff whilst conversion is under cool down. (Long cool down due to meditation) Weak damage output but can absorb/doge incoming melee attacks . Trained in monasteries after researching Mahāvyutpatti.
UU siege - instead of a trebuchet in the castle the Tibbetans can create the multiple bow (3 bow) arcuballista - Fires a massive ballista bolt with similar range and RoF as a trebuchet, but instead of an arch attack, the fast travelling bolt flies with a shallow arch (much like a skorpion). Does not do pass through damage, does slightly less building damage , a lot less anti wall damage but a lot more anti treb damage than a trebuchet. Good at targeting enemy siege units such as bombard cannon, mangonel line and trebs.
Unique tech 1:Mahāvyutpatti - All gold resources become visible on map + Shaolin can be trained at monasteries.
Unique tech 2: Himalayan herds Kumis -cost: 500 wood 100 gold you and your allies receive a large herd of yaks to harvest for fast plentiful food income .
Willow leaf boarding armour - Cavalry gain +1 pierce armour , Heavy cavalry gain +2 pierce and +1 melee armour but move slower.
Iron disk sternum armour - Cavalry archer +1 pierce armour / +1 Melee Armour.
Medical conference - you and all allies gain herbal medicine.
Tang monk expulsion - Monk exodus from Tang China causes your kingdom to receive x5 monks/Shaolin at your TCs + monk cost decreases by 25%.
Civ bonus1:Lhasa - Town Center attack 60% faster
Civ bonus 2: Starts battle and every age with two Yaks under town centre.
Civ bonus3: Due to the high altitude of their cities, Enemy forces close to Tibetan buildings have reduced movement speed.
Team bonus: CA + 1 melee armour.
The soldiers of the Tibetan Empire wore Willow leaf armour and were proficient in the use of swords and lances, but were poor in archery.
Barracks: Nepalese infantry
Champion
Halb
no supplies.
Archer line only has Archer.
Cav Archer line full. Cav archers have more pierce armour but move slightly slower.
Full skirmisher line.
Parthian Tactics missing.
Siege:
Full onager line
Full scorpion line.
Only has capped ram.
Stable:
Steppe lancers
Heavy cav line goes up to Cavalier.
Camel + heavy camel.
Light cav goes up to light cav only.
Bloodlines
No Husbandry
Campaign in the north against China that culminates in the Battle of Talas715AD with Saracen allies .
Wonder: Jokhang Temple
The events of DE2 long predate any involvement of communist China in the Himalayas. Although the current diplomatic situation is rather troublesome , The Chinese just have to understand that this is an effort to showcase their region's history and not undermine it. More Historically correct options added to Asia.
I'd love to do a Tibetans build someday. Unfortunately I doubt that Microsoft will do it for fear of embargo by China, but that doesn't mean the civ doesn't 100% deserve to be included. This one is really cool, as your builds tend to be Ivan!
The super-ballista UU seems WILD, what is the historical basis behind that!? I've never heard of it before! And the UT that reveals Gold on map is *so* cool, I adore that idea.
The second Civ Bonus (free yaks) seems *very* strong, like Tatars + Incas but much better than either. Other than that, all these bonuses seem really cool!
I'd actually say this is my single favorite build you've ever shared, Ivan. Really nicely done with this one!
And by the way, I'm glad that I found your channel and I like the content you're making. I'm a history enthusiast and a fan of AoE 2 as well.
Really appreciate you saying so Wei! I can tell you know your stuff when it comes to history, having knowledgeable people like you in the comments section is half of the fun of doing this. I learned so much just by reading your feedback!
Great to have you on the channel my friend.
@@robbylava Thanks for your appreciation. It's fun to watch the videos you made on the hypothetical civs, please keep them up and I'm hoping to see more. Cheers!
Pleasures all mine brother! Can't wait to hear your thoughts on some of the future builds.
Oh wow, another video so soon. Great job! Honestly I'm a bit reluctant to say this cause it's been a while since I watched all your videos but going off memory, I wanna say this is the best civ you've put together so far and it seems like it should be incredibly powerful as well. Overall great eco bonuses both for early game pressure (stable techs) and long term (honestly the farming bonus feels a bit unfair towards the Slavs lol). The fortified houses are neat gimmick that I could actually see myself using as a form of early defense (especially because I ten to be greedy and don't like full walling while going FC). I love both of them unique units, Iron Pagoda Lancer honestly simply cause Steppe Lancers are one of my favourite units in the game and getting a supercharged version would just be a treat. Tiehuopao on the other hand is amazing for a different reason. I LOVE when you get a unique unit, that occupies a completely new niche and remixes the mechanics of the game in a way that's natural yet produces something new. We have never had a ranged splash damage non-siege unit in the game. These are all terms and mechanics that exist but not in this confirugration and I think that's super cool. Team bonus is also just on point. Also feels like it could lead to some insane shenanigans with the Malay bonus.
Unique techs are also pretty cool and an interesting way to give the civ an edge in battle, I particularly like the melee armor for ranged cav. Niru on the other hand I feel might end up something that's too strong in game. It is a finicky thing, but your units will tend to set this up just through their AI behavior and for super late game fights where it's big blobs coming to blows I think the bonus will just kinda tend towards a completely slaughter as the damage add ups over time.
Either way! Keep up the good work.
YO! Great to hear from you again Crown! And I'm absolutely thrilled to hear that you like the build so much! I was definitely proud of this one, though it certainly has a lot more problems than I identified during design heheheh
I've actually already done an update to this build in my newest video! It's the first installment in a Recraft series where I go back through previous builds and take comment feedback in fixing them. I'm _hoping_ the changes I made there address most of the problems! But either way, I'd absolutely love to hear what you think about that if you ever find the time.
Regardless, if you have any other specific feedback on how I can improve the build I'd be delighted to hear it. Your thoughts on Niru in particular would be great that's one that a couple other commenters mentioned being uncertain about but I didn't include any changes to it in my Recraft.
Thanks for taking the time to watch man! Hoping to have a video a week for the month of February at least, so there's plenty more coming!
Oh dear God I have SO MANY NOTES
First off, I heartily agree with your sentiment that the Chinese deserve the Indians treatment, though I believe that it would even be possible to do this in a way that is not offensive to the government of the PRC, that is, as long as it doesn't include Uyghurs and Tibetans (though, looking at how Hearts of Iron 4 fared, I might be very wrong there). And, if that fails, we can always give them the Forgotten Empires treatment and make a mod that's so dominant that it is essentially an unofficial expansion, until it becomes an official expansion :D Either way, I would love to hear you discuss what civs you think the game should go in the direction of (new or split, doesn't matter) even without a full concept like this. You've touched on so many regions but all of them quite lightly (understandably), but I think there are meaningful discussions to be had about how to split Chinese while still at the civ high concept level.
I also love the idea of a North Asian architecture set, and even your civ choices for it, though it might be awkward changing two fan-favorite civs with fan-favorite campaigns over to a new architecture set - it would have to be the best thing since sliced bread. One fairly obvious building that's already in the game is the Shrine from the Avar camp in the Honfoglalas scenario as the sprite for the Monastery, as well as Yurts for the Houses, naturally. I also really love the female Monks idea - I was sort of expecting a monk/monastery bonus to go with it.
While you were talking about the possible campaigns I couldn't help but feel how while the individual stories might be a bit reductive at this point (unify the tribes and conquer China same as in Genghis Khan) or monotonous in terms of available matchups (a trait sadly shared by Sundjata and Yodit), but the overall history provided a really nice arc, with a legendary origin story of unification, the early glory days, the infamous fall and then the glimmer of a return to glory just beyond reach due to the timeframe. I know campaigns that don't focus on a single person are less popular, but I think they can work really well, and this (like the Hautevilles, to an extent) could be a campaign that shows the origin of a people and a dynasty that would last well into modern times, just hinting at the ~300 years of ruling China in the outro of the last mission. For an extra touch, you could get the narrator to be Aisin Gioro Puyi, in a sort of The Last Emperor vibe that would narratively be really cool, even if a bit unrealistic.
Regarding the gameplay, I have mixed feelings - some of it I love, and other things I think would be hopelessly broken. In the pro corner, I love the upgrade to the Steppe Lancer, and I think that unit deserves more attention (e.g. - offtopic hot take - I think Lithuanians should also get it and it should be affected by their relic bonus). I worry, however, that with the low gold cost being reduced even more with their civ bonus, the final upgrade might be a bit oppressive. They would end up with 140hp, 17 attack and the same armor as a Paladin, while costing half the gold and only 10 food more. Think about how the Leitis is so strong with 4 relics that it's better to sell food for gold and make them rather than make Hussars (ua-cam.com/video/85nz7Is1CE0/v-deo.html) - something like that would only get exacerbated in a situation where the unit in question also has 1 range on their melee attack, 7 pierce armor, and also soft counter Paladins, and I worry it would be a one-stop-shop power unit that you could create even while using only the Market. I love giving common units unique upgrades, and I believe there is a way to sort them out, but as it stands I feel like they are a bit too powerful. Maybe that would be offset in a real game by your opponent knowing that you have to go there in Imperial and not letting you get there, but that's hard to know without playtesting. Maybe (and there isn't precedent for this so I know you'll love it) the upgrade could also make them more expensive?
I think the Fortified House thing is really interesting - but also it seems easy to get wrong. E.g. if it has minimum range (I assume you meant like Towers do before Murder Holes) then it's not really so much of a deterrent (dealing as much damage as an Archer in Feudal) since it is 2x2. making it much more easy to destroy from melee range (see problems with Donjons for reference). It's a difficult thing to balance - if the upgrade time was shorter, I could see Houses placed behind palisades and upgraded to Fortified Houses if an enemy tries to break through, but in 75 seconds either the wall and the house are both gone or the enemy has moved elsewhere and you just wasted 25 stone. I can sort of see this being used to deter raids on exposed mines or woodlines, but without the ability to garrison, I'm not sure the damage poses much of a threat - it's essentially a weak tower. This leaves just the "stronger housewall" situation, which is probably not what you were going for. There is probably a way to make this work, but I guess we would need to playtest it.
The food bonus is really unique - giving you an incentive to keep the game in Castle age is not something I think even exists in AoE2, though 25% seems a bit much again (Slavs' and Poles' 10% are considered very good eco bonuses). Maybe switch Dark and Feudal age around - under most build orders, the Sheep are eaten before the berries and deer, and I'm not sure whether you were going for making another civ with an obscure unique start. I can see how it makes sense from a historical perspective, but the gameplay makes it awkward. Also, having an economic incentivé to prolong Castle Age, while having no good answer to, for example, Knights, in Castle Age might work out, but it could just as easily feel like you have to give up the farming bonus in order to reach Iron Pagoda Lancers and be able to take good matchups. (I'm not sure how good CA with Niru would be against good cavalry civs.)
Niru is really interesting - the standard medium cav and CA army and trebs would almost certainly benefit from this in most fights, automatically making Jurchen CA probably the best in the game This is certainly better than the Hussite Wagon "shooting over" mechanic, though it may have crossed over from "almost useless and difficult to effectively make use of" to "difficult to *not* make use of". I think the "weakness to maneuvering" might be a bit overstated, given the 3 best units of the Manchu are also cavalry and they don't lack Husbandry. Guaizi Ma is also something unique - you have proposed "aura" like effects before, even though there are none in AoE2 at the moment. +4 is a pretty high cap (though Frontier Guards has shown that it might not matter a huge amount in practice). I just want to see Steppe Lancers with 8 melee and 7 pierce armor beating Paladins. Maybe it could be +1 per multiple units instead of +1 for every unit since now it's effectively be the same as just a baseline +4, only dropping below when the enemy has already pretty much won.
I like the versatility of the team bonus discount, though this would be one of the strongest team bonuses out there, if not the strongest of them all. 33% of 500 food is more than 150 food, so it's the Lithuanian civ bonus but for everyone. It wouldn't be about the faster age-up so much (you'd want more vills and a larger economy unless you're doing some ultra-fast rush), but having two scouts worth of resources for everyone on your team when you do hit Feudal would mean this would just be a must-have in all team games. Generally team bonuses are weaker than civ bonuses, but maybe if this was like 10-15% it would be balanced enough.
Just as you were about to mention the unique unit I remembered another old strategy game I played - Empries: Dawn of the Modern World (not sure whether you're familiar with it, it's essentially a spinoff of the Empire Earth series), in which Koreans have access to a grenade thrower unit. I always found this fascinating and wondered if making that a unique Korean alternative to the Hand Cannoneer would work.The Tiehuopao seems strikingly similar to what I had in mind (though mine wasn't mounted), so the regional identity is strong there. Whether to think of them as a more mobile Mangonel or an Arambai with blast damage, it is definitely unique and fits the AoE2 design style and mechanics very well. However, also having the Siege Onager with Siege Engineers seems redundant in that case, and I think a good opportunity to distinguish between the Jurchen and the Mongols is hiding in plain sight here - instead of both being medium cavalry, cavalry archer and siege onager civs, the Tiehuopao could have additional damage against buildings, or cavalry doing more damage against buildings could be a civ bonus. This would fit with the theme of being able to conquer land, but not being as good defensively.
Continued in reply because the full comment was apparently returning an error
Regarding tabled ideas I had lots of thoughts. Having military units be able to hunt sounds interesting in theory, but really, it would only be viable in the early game (as an alternative to luring deer for your Scout. Military units are expensive because they can fight, so not using them to fight means you are not getting value for the resources you spent, and having downtime enough to hunt with some units means you're not playing optimally, so I'm glad that was tabled. That could perhaps work in a different game, but for AoE2 I think it would be very difficult to get right.
Infantry farming is another interesting one - paying more for essentially farming-only villagers that can defend themselves. I had a similar idea a while back for a civ bonus to give villagers a bonus against cavalry (pitchforks are sort of like pikes, right?), though infantry farming would probably be more of a late-game thing, like Supremacy.
A food trickle while fighting really tickles my imagination, and might be a more practical alternative to the non-cumulative food bonus, though that would mean they had no early eco bonus, and judging by the Keshik gold generation numbers this would never come close to a real civ bonus.
Archers getting an attack bonus against cavalry would be an interesting upset (the Genoese Crossbow is one of my favorite unique units) though in sufficient numbers they already kinda do, so this would probably diminish their weakness to cavalry greatly. Also, it looks to me like any bonus damage significant enough to make a difference in Feudal and Castle would be too much for late-game battles, whereas if it was only the foot archer line it would feel random and gimmicky and probably not worth it.
Regarding the whole "hunting" thing, one civ bonus that is just lying around waiting to be used is having villagers fight with bows (like when they hunt) against enemies as well. This would be a great complement to the Fortified House and even if they benefited from the blacksmith pierce damage upgrades it wouldn't be OP I think.
Regarding Hala Mukun - in Age of Empires 3 there is a shipment which lets you do something similar, so I guess great minds think alike? :D
When you mentioned the Beile and the Hunting dog bells just started ringing in my head with cool ideas. For context, for a while now I've been entertaining the idea of a civ with a CA scout and CA available in Feudal, but I didn't know which civ that would be appropriate for (maybe Jurchens, or another North Asian civ?). Now, you said it wouldn't make sense to make an army of "leaders", so instead imagine starting with a Beile, a CA Hero as your scout that gets improved with every age-up. Sure, you could take on the enemy's scout, but you also don't want to lose your hero, and as strong as they are, one unit can't do that much damage. As for Hunting Dogs, my running idea was to have them cost 25 food, have the same stats as a Wolf (and pre-Loom villager), be created at TCs and take up no pop space. That way, you can make one if you get housed or something, and starting with one along with your hero would make for a powerful Dark Age, but it wouldn't be worth the TC time to make them in the early game, and they would just be too weak in the late game. Make them have the same LoS as a Sheep just so it isn't like you start with two scouts, but you can for example lure deer while your human scout is taking a peek at the enemy base. Together, they'd be kind of like your Explorer and their dog in AoE3 without being gimmicky for AoE2.
I really (really) didn't intend to write a whole essay when I started this, but this just opened so many interesting discussions. Love to see your concepts, keep up the good work.
Good. God. Almighty.
This is, without a doubt, the most thorough and engaging comment I've ever received. Fuck me, you've REALLY outdone yourself with this one Xastor!
I... honestly have no idea how to respond to this. How to even begin responding to this! But I did have a thought: you have so many fantastic insights here, and it would be a crying shame to not get a chance to go through all of them, would you be at all up to continuing this conversation over email? Could even set a time to talk over discord or something, whichever you prefer mate. All I know is that this comment is a gold mine and I don't know if I could do it justice over youtube!
Totally understand if you prefer not. But either way man, thank you so much for sharing all of this. I'm honestly overwhelmed, in a very good way! And I'm really grateful that you enjoy and engage with my work to the extent that you do.
@@robbylava sure - how do I get in touch with you? I'm not sure I can message a channel directly
I *wish* UA-cam still had DMs, but there is another way! In the About section of my channel you can access my email address when you're on PC. Shoot me a message there whenever you'd like!
A change i would make for balance reasons is that the cavalry grenadier should have a very big bonus against elephants, otherwise they'd have no answer to them.
Also it makes sense, with elephants being so sensitive to sound a grenade would make them panic quite fast
That's quite an interesting idea Juan! I rarely think about anti elephant bonus damage, since the unit is so often unviable anyways just due to its prohibitive cost, but you're right that this civilization doesn't have a great way to deal with them. I'll definitely consider it, thanks for the suggestion man!
The main problem with dividing the original civs from the base game is that many players will probably see them as near sacred. They could get away with Indians, and hopefully in the future slavs; because they made them.
The Chinese absolutely need to be split up. I mean how many people complain about the creators of gunpowder not having gunpowder units? The civ encompases way to big a timeframe, and people to be left alone
Safest option in my opinion would be to keep the Chinese as they are, but make the fringe groups like you have here, and then make indipendant dynasties that could cover later iterations.
There is already something of a precedent for having an earlier/later variation of peoples from a region with goths/teutons being something like that for Germany, Sicilians/Italians for Italy, and Franks/Burgundians for France, so why not do something like that with the Chinese?
In order to represent them going back and forth between nomadic and settled lifestyles, I wonder if one can choose one of the lifestyles when you age up to pack up and move the entire town to a different map location. Packed Town Centers are already a thing in-game so it’s not too much of a stretch.
The trade off is that you can move to a more conducive position (retreat/advance) but your town is not working while you are moving. In exchange, you might get some defensive upgrades such as houses being automatically rebuilt as Fortified Houses to protect the eco after the move.
Not a bad suggestion at all! And man, you must be some sort of prophet, cuz the build I have releasing tomorrow uses an extremely similar idea...
Regardless, I definitely plan on exploring nomadic factions being mobile like you suggest at some point in future. Right now I think it might be a bit too radical of a change for some audience members, but by introducing them to the idea slowly like with tomorrow's video I think I can set up for a big implementation at some point!
@@robbylava it might also seem a bit derivative. AOE4 has it implemented already haha.
I don't think it's derivative at all! Even though I have many problems with aoe4, the game still has many great ideas we can play around with. And I wouldn't be surprised if that game in turn got the idea from some of the custom scenario ideas people came up with for Age of Empires 2 in the past!
Plus, aoe4 only has it for the Mongols. I think it would be cool if it was an option for many different civilizations! But I won't get too ahead of myself yet.
How does the ''Niru'' tech work? What constitutes a projectiles damage increase when flying over a unit ? A projectile moving over magnets ,like a railgun makes sense but , what is the science of your ''Niru'' tech?
One similar tech I wish to see added to the Franks is :
Added Bonus: Spotters - Trebuchets located next to friendly castles gain improved accuracy.
Is this similar to what you have in mind with ''Niru''? ''Niru'' being a commander that aids in the accuracy ,hence damage of projectiles?
Great question Ivan! Yes, you're kind of on the right track with that. My idea was that since Jurchen battalions trained together during hunting parties and were famed for their coordination, the Niru tech was representing a bowman's ability to similarly synergize with fellow members of their regiment on the battlefield.
How does that logic sound to you?
so these are cool, but a lot of these bonuses exist on other civs, or are multiple bonuses all in one (the cheaper stable techs is burgundians, the food bonuses are stolen from mongols and franks. Cheaper cav archers is a Huns bonus.
Hey! Yeah, the burgundians one was a complete mistake on my part. I made a recraft video somewhat recently where I updated a bunch of this civilizations features, including completely changing the copied bonus and also updating the incremental food gathering bonus.
I would disagree with you though that the Gold discount is too similar to the Huns. Plenty of civilization bonuses have minor overlap, and I think that this one (between it also giving los and applying to the lancer as well as the CA) is different enough to stand alone.
I could not agree more that the Huns and steppe peoples should get a new architecture.
Steppe tribes
Nomadic architecture set for the Nomad civs, Mongols get Yurt houses and steppe Nomad architecture. Tartars + Cumans get Yurts for dark age houses and Huns too get steppe Nomad architecture. The Mongol Yurts should have less HP but also be much cheaper.
With their Unique tech 'Nomads'' if their cheap , low HP Yurts goes down, then they need not create more. It will be perfect.
Armenians should get the current Tatar extra Hill bonus damage in exchange for faster moving CA + Tatar, Mongol and Hun scouts have the ability to lame enemies hunt/livestock.(Scorched earth tactics) These civs should also get to train op to 5 hunting wolves in the Dark age (Cost 25 food)
I think your idea for Mongol houses could be a really good addition to the nomads tech. Right now it's so weak, I think making Mongol houses much cheaper, even nearly free, would still be very fair!
I've had a couple other comments say that hunting dogs seem like a really fun unit to add to the game. I could see all sorts of civilizations getting them beyond just to the nomads! Might be a good topic for a later video.
43:44
I like this idea, but I agree it doesn't fits the playstyle.
For a long time I imagined a civ that had castles being able to produce villagers, and in this case you don't even need to reduce the creation speed, considering it is harder to build than the TC.
I like it. It would be a faction that I would like to play.
Appreciate you saying so Divicos, great to see you in the comments section!
43:58 My family comes from Warka, so an instant like from me :)
Great design with perfect historical accuracy！I really like your design of Jurchens eco bonus, which reflects really well on the changes of their life style（also quite unique and fine to play）.
But personally I think Khitans can not be well represented by the current Mongols civ. They also deserve to be an independent civ just like Jurchens in the potential China-themed expansion.
Hey! Thank you so much for saying so Ice Box! Historical accuracy is something I really strive for, so hearing you say that I nailed it feels amazing!
Couldn't agree more with you on the Khitans , that's definitely a civilization on my list. I'd love to hear your thoughts when I eventually get around to them! And until then, I really hope you enjoy the other builds on the channel. Great to have you!
I don't think the strength of the feudal age cheaper cost is in getting there sooner- it's getting there at the same time, but with more resources to do things with. While it would allow for a high level very fast rush, it's going to more often and more reliably be used to make a standard rush much much stronger.
That's definitely true. I ended up pretty heavily reworking the civilization in two different recraft videos, so if you get a chance to take a look I'd love to hear what you think about the New directions I've taken!
@@robbylava Ah yes, that did come up again. I tend to listen to youtube while doing other stuff, which is a weird combo considering I like youtube channels that require my full attention a lot of the time. The more in depth my comments have gotten, the more I've had to go back and review and stop and think.
As far as the Jurchens getting reworked, I definitely think pulling that bonus away from a team bonus to a civ only bonus makes it something that can be designed around quite nicely. The rest I don't quite have organized thoughts on.
No problem at all man! I do the exact same thing when I listen to UA-cam, always multitasking. Never feel like you have to address every single part of a build! You give such fantastic feedback as is I really could never ask for more
23:23
I think this is too strong of a team bonus, specially with already having a food bonus that would help them go up faster.
Completely agree. This was one of the things I changed in my recraft.
according to the texts and campaigns (as in Genghis Khan) about AoE Tatars, u should use Tatars to represent Uyghurs
It is true that the Tatars are currently used as an umbrella civilization for peoples of the Asian steppe, but I don't think it has to be that way forever. Definitely interested in doing more steppe civilizations myself!
cheaper feudal age: I like to play Italians, and having a cheaper feudal age doesn't really make feudal come any earlier for them (I'm not aware of any Italian builds that specifically take advantage of the cheaper feudal to age up earlier). It's more dependent on whether you've established an economy than the cost in my experience. That said, I think there are some civs that would be able to use the bonus to go up a few vils earlier, but getting up earlier does mean collecting fewer resources. At most levels, it would be equivalent to getting extra food upon hitting Feudal, but a skilled enough player would probably be able to make use of the earlier feudal. That said, I think it would be comparable in power to a Lithuanian pre-mill drush: dangerous because of how early it is, but not game-breaking by any means.
Hunting Dog: I like the idea of a hunting dog that could be trained from a TC. It would be a fabulous bonus even if it is mostly useless. It would usually cost more in TC time than it would be worth, but would have some niche uses (like nomad - gaining a scout could be huge there, particularly since your opponents would have to either use a villager to scout or invest into a barracks/militia), and it might be useful for killing off a weakened enemy scout (or pushing deer, pulling a boar). Not every bonus needs to be powerful to be included (Celt sheep bonus is a great example). Another option would be training the hunting dog from houses, which might lead to a hunting dog rush strategy.
You make a really good point about the feudal advance, Jason. I see a couple other commenters are quite concerned about it, but you make a pretty convincing case for why it's not a tremendous worry. If it were to hypothetically be overpowered, how would you personally nerf this particular team bonus without neutering it?
And I'm really glad you like the hunting dog idea! Your idea to have it build from houses is fantastic, by the way. I could see either that or a town center version being equally valid!
Come to think of it, do you think that the hunting dog is an interesting enough idea to merit being a theorycrafted unit video like I did with the Arquebusier recently? They certainly existed in a great many societies, even though the Jurchens were particularly famous for it (and could maybe receive a unique bonus for theirs).
Thanks for the comment man, excellent insights as always. Really hope you enjoyed the build!
Niru tech sounds like a reverse Hussite Wagon (adding dmg to vs. reducing dmg of overhead projectiles)
If so, so far even the pros cannot use this mechanics properly.
@@paweborkowski6959 Yep! That was pretty much exactly my inspiration for the mechanic.
Definitely a tricky one to use, but I have a feeling that this offensive version will be much easier to use than the defensive Hussite Wagons.
@@robbylava You're right. It should be easier to use.
A Hussite Wagon is slow so the only way I see it being used as intended is when a player is retreating with their army, and then decides to stop and fight (like a faint retreat of sorts).
Whereas cavalry usually precedes archers so yeah, I see how offensive overhead projectiles would be present in games :)
I'm glad I could explain it at all coherently!
I do wish the hussite wagons defensive functionality were better though. It's such an iconic unit, and I really think it could be extremely cool if it could be re-tooled in some way!
The only 2 firm scenarios for inclusion of jurchens in older campaigns are Genghis Khan 3 and Kaesong..... oh, you don't know what Kaesong is? A cut scenario from The Forgotten expansion. Imo, should be re-implemented. It features the Jin Dynasty, which is Jurchen.
Aside from that jurchens are closer to Siberians than Mongols or Turks. So there isn't really a place they can replace other civs in. They don't really need to, imo.
I never heard of that before, no! Super cool piece of trivia, I'm surprised I didn't come across it while researching for this video.
I would generally agree with you that a civilization doesn't need to slot into existing campaigns to merit inclusion. Cool when it happens, but far from necessary! And you're very right, while I state here that the Jurchens would be part of a Chinese split, they're honestly about as close to Mongols as they are Chinese. Very much their own people!
40:14
Looks at enemy soldiers: Looks like meat's back in the menu, boys!
😂
I think I have to give a small criticism, you mentioned you like complexity, and a few times I see you proposing complex mechanics in some civs, but I think that the the way you sometimes aply it is by being convoluted or having things that are hard to track.
AoE2 is already a quite complex game, but it is based in relatively simple principles.
You can think of various games that are very simple in their rules and mechanics, but very complex in strategy, like Chess and Go.
Ideally, you should try to create complexity with simple mechanics.
The Burgandians can research their eco techs one age earlier with a discount, just this creates a series of choices about how much each of those should be researched early if it would delay ageing up or doing other stuff.
I can see where you're coming from of course. But for me, complexity has a number of purposes (beyond just being fun). Though Age of Empires is quite a complex game, it is also a very streamlined game, which is something that I think spoils a lot of the beauty and joy that it brought to so many of us when we first discovered it. Naturally more complexity makes things harder to be played at a competitive level, but I am firmly in the camp that believes games should be designed for a casual audience first and foremost, or at the very least should not be held back because of the competitive scene.
Happy to discuss this topic further if you like, but I don't want to type out a massive essay just yet. Either way, in summary, I think complexity is good for quite a few reasons, but over the last year and a bit I have actually updated my style to be more in line with conventional mechanics (though for a very particular reason). Interested to hear what you think once you get to some of my more recent uploads!
@@robbylava , my point is about creating complexity with simple mechanics.
The Saracen market bonus is simple and easy for casual players, but pros can also create more advanced strategies.
The Gurjaras bonus of garrisoning herdables in the mill.
Is it better to have the food fast and advance quickly?
Or get a lot more food slowly?
There is an opportunity cost with both options.
The challenge is:
How to create complex decision making with something I can describe in 1 or 1,5 lines of texts?
I forgot to which civ you gave the bonus of getting a single university tech instantly for free.
Most of the time people will get ballistics, but the opponent can't assume it, because maybe I know they are coming to attack me and I decided to get fortified wall to gain time while I send my army to counterattack them.
Or I can do a fast imp and get Chemistry for free and go for gunpowder.
It is a simple bonus, but it creates complex decisions.
Something that is almost never used in the game are things that have a drawback (exept bonuses that takes away some resources as compensation).
I think that UT that have a drawback, so the decision to use them or not becomes more strategic is interesting and it is something I would like to see.
(Flemish revolution is the only one I can think off)
Let's say a tech that doubles the life of castles, but increases their cost by 3 times (including repairing), if you are about to loose the center of the map in a Gold hush, do you pick the tech?
Because it might help to keep the control, but it would be a lot harder to build more castles.
A Chinese breakdown is also among my top wish lists for AoE2. Apart from the Jurchens, I'm eager to see the Tanguts and the Dians in the breakdown. The Tanguts would represent the Western Xia kingdom in Northwest China (1038 - 1227), whereas the Dians would represent the Nanzhao and Dali kingdoms in Southwest China (738 - 1253) as well as the numerous Yue, Pu, Bo, Man, Li, and Liao tribes that used to exist in this region. The Tanguts could be a Camel and Monk civ, whereas the Dians could be another Archer or Infantry civ.
And apart from China I think SE Asia deserves more civs as well, I could see the addition of at least 3 SE Asian civs, the Chams, the Mons, and the Siamese.
Wow, those are some excellent ideas Wei! I knew about the Nanzhao but I never knew the Dian were the ethnic group behind them.
Totally agree with you overall that East Asia needs more love! The Tanguts and Liao ( or Khitan) are absolutely on my list, as are the Chams and Thai, but I know very little about the Mons. What were they up to during the AOE2 relevant time frame?
Great hearing from you man! Can't wait to hear what you think about some of the other builds on the channel.
@@robbylava Well, technically speaking the Dian was an old exonym used by the Sinitic people of the Han era to refer to the native peoples of Yunnan, which predates the onset of AoE 2 at around 476 AD. Though I think such a name could still be applied in the medieval period because there was continuity in Yunnan from the time of the Dian to the onset of Nanzhao in 738 AD.
The Mons did a lot of things in AoE 2's timeline, they founded some of the earliest kingdoms in Mainland SE Asia such as the Haripunchai, the Thaton, or the Dvaravati, all of which fell within AoE 2's timeframe. And they were the first Theravada Buddhists in SE Asia (Khmer and Cham were Hinduists).
Good clarification. I'm glad I know now! They are absolutely going to be going on my list.
If you were to pick one civilization to further than Chinese subdivision, which one would you wants to see Wei?
@@robbylava I'd want to see the Dians, and maybe the Tanguts. For the Dians I've already laid out a theory-crafted version on the AoE 2 forum, I'm not sure how feasible or suitable is my design, I'll share it with you below:
The Dian
Civ Type
Archer and Monk
Civ Bonuses:
Mills can train water buffaloes that cost no pop space for 50 food each, starting from the Feudal Age (basically you pay 50 food but get 150 food in return)
Gains +10 gold for each successful conversion (pushes for aggressive monk play in the Castle Age)
Foot archers move 5%/10%/15% faster in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age (only applies to the archer line and not to skirmishers. The base speed for an archer is 0.96, and after speed boosts in the Imperial Age it will have a speed around 1.1, but judging by the fact that we have some infantry units going 1.2 and 1.3, I don’t think this will break the meta)
Team Bonus: Monastery +2 LOS (8 instead of the normal 6)
Unique Techs:
Castle Age:
Lacquered Leather Armor
Team unique units +1 melee armor (Food 200 Gold 250)
Imperial Age:
Tea and Horse Road
Team players can train trash Knights at their markets for 120 Food each (The tech costs Food 700 and Gold 750. The market can only train Knights and not Cavaliers or Paladins, and the Knights trained at the markets have basic stats and are not affected by Blacksmith upgrades, so don’t expect to defend your trade lines with these trash Knights only, but they can still help somewhat against raids in urgent situations.)
Unique Units
Castle Unique Unit: Luojuzi, a skirmisher with the speed akin to an Eagle Warrior. It does not have an anti-archer bonus but instead has a small bonus attack against cavalry and camels, and unlike normal skirmishers this one costs gold to train.
Barracks Unique Unit: Raeu Tribesman, a infantry unit that has two modes, a gatherer mode and a infantry mode. The default mode is infantry but it can be turned into a gatherer manually. When in gatherer mode it can gather all resources though it only drops the resources at the Barracks and not at other drop sites unlike Villagers. It's available at the Castle Age and does not have an elite upgrade.
Haven't really thought of their tech tree. Please feel free to comment and provide suggestions to my Dian civ design, thanks.
WOW, that is an exceptionally creative build Wei! You have some really great ideas in there. I love the unique unit that can switch between soldier and gatherer, I did something very similar in my Dutch build and was considering something like that for the Jurchens. Tea and horse road is also fantastic, as is the conversion gold bonus. Frankly, the only one I don't like is the team bonus, which feels a little bit underpowered, but other than that I genuinely think every single thing you've put here is creative, engaging, and practically applicable!
Can you give me some information on the history behind the two unique units? The skirmisher one in particular seems really cool!
Thanks so much for sharing my friend. I have a policy where I never reference other people's builds during my civ design, but it's going to be pretty tough not to reference this one when tackling the Dian myself!
28:12
Others already said it, but this bonus should increase more slowly (every X amount of cavalry around).
It is too strong as it is.
the jurchen tribes have a lot of flavour in eu4 and in eu4 mods
I'm really glad that game did them justice! Do you see any ways that my build could benefit from some of the choices eu4 made with the Jurchens?
I've had a couple commenters recommend that game to me, just hard finding time for a grand strategy game with a toddler to take care of.
@@robbylava the game has recently added monuments and they didn't forget about manchuria, also the manchu banner mechanic seems inspiring considering aoe2 units.
anyways, i hope u find the time to give eu4 a try since it really is a cool game but well, having a toddler is tolerable too
Heheheh, thanks man! I will for sure put it on my wish list
Ah one of the northern dynasties Genghis curbstomped. This should be interesting
Edit: Oh jeez, I didn't know they founded the Qin Dynasty. Talk about a comeback.
Seriously! I knew they founded the Jin going into this project, but I had no idea they were responsible for the Qing as well! Definitely elevates them from a fluke to a serious player.
Hope you enjoyed the build, Phoenix!
@@robbylava Kinda shows why doing research on these things is so important. You never know when a group that seems like a bit player at first might surprise you. Kinda makes me wonder what a Tanguts civ would be like. (The red [and also green] faction in Genghis 3)
Absolutely! The Tanguts are certainly on my list as well as the Khitans. My hope with both is to provide some more North Asian nomad civilizations that play differently from the other ones we have in the game, ideally one of them will even get an infantry focus if the history matches up enough!
@@robbylava Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if the Tanguts fit the infantry focus. Granted I don’t know much about them, but most of what I heard doesn’t bring up cavalry much
That's kind of what I saw about them too! I really hope that's the case, I love seeing that sort of variety across regional civilizations.
I made a DLC and civ concept featuring Jurchens and it's inspired by your concept too. It would be great to hear your thoughts on it
HOLY SHIT DUDE, I would LOVE to see that! Where can I find it? Would you be able to send a link to my email? You can find it in the about section of my channel if you're viewing on pc!
@@robbylava Hey! Sure, I will send it to you via e-mail. You can get back to me as a reply here itself or via email or Discord.
Oh fantastic! I see the email in my inbox now -- apologies if it takes me a couple days to get back to you, if you don't hear from me for over a week feel free to give me another poke to make sure it hasn't been buried!
Thanks again for sharing this my friend. Very excited to take a look through!
@@robbylava Oh sure np. Btw the sender name in the email is a pseudonym too 😂
Lmao, that intro
I was also concerned about the strong combinations, that a cheaper age up bonus would bring, but maybe just reduce the percentage until it is balanced. More importantly I support the suggestion of their strong early game food eco that does not stay as a permanent boost you can carry over to imp. It is important for a civ to go through different stages during the game, to create more interesting dynamics when playing against other civs. Since it is a bonus, i.e. something you get for free, I don't see why it would necessarily last forever. In a way you could argue that many boni, like the mongol hunt or the celts wood collection have signifacantly lost their edge in the later stages of the game as well. That said, I am not a fan of a fighting unit gathering food and having a military unit being able to hunt (even like a khmr farmer, without actually carrying it to a drop off point) feels like the better option to me, if one of these boni were to be added to a civ. (also, it feels less cannibalistic - even if that is of course not the idea behind this bonus ;)
Glad you like the idea behind the bonus Foxy! I semi recently made a Recraft video where I redid some of my old builds, and the Jurchens got some fairly substantial changes in that! I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I updated them if you ever get a chance to watch that one. And even with those changes, there's still definitely more to do for the civilization! I plan on doing recraft videos fairly regularly in future, so any of your suggestions on my old builds will still be able to influence how they look going forwards!
I really like the idea of breaking down what I tend to call the "ragbag civilizations". One of those are also the Celts, who could be broken down into civs like the Gaels, the Scots or the Welsh (or some other I haven't mentioned).
I also suggest that you cover some Mesoamerican civs as well. I'm sure you could do something awesome with the Toltecs or the Zapotecs for example. :)
Couldn't agree with you more, Lif! "Ragbag" really is the word for it. It's funny you mentioned the Celts, as I have a project plan for them not terribly far in the future! Being Scot/Welsh myself, it's a subdivision I care quite a lot about!
I 110% plan on doing some mesoamerican civs at some point too! I know less about them, so I've shied away in favor of projects that are easier to research, but if you have any that you particularly like me to tackle I would be very interested in taking the plunge!
Thank you so much for the words of encouragement man. Really glad you're enjoying the projects!
I'm really glad to know about your plans for future theorycrafted civilizations!
While I'm not an expert on Mesoamerican civs, I do know some stuffs about them. If I had to suggest you one civ to tackle, I think it would be the Zapotecs. Long story short, the Zapotecs originated in the Valley of Oaxaca (in the South of modern-day Mexico), where their civilization flourished at least as early as the 700's BCE, and lasted up until the Spanish colonization in the 1520's. As such, they have a very long History, spanning across almost the entirety of the Age of Empires 2 timeframe.
A Zapotec campaign could feature both the Aztecs and the Spanish as antagonists (they repelled successfully the Aztecs, and later rebelled several times against Spanish rule).
Speaking about the Celts, your project for them already sounds really exciting! Does it means that you would theorycrafted a revamped version of the William Wallace campaign as well? And what do you think about a potential Pictish civ? Personally, I think they could represent the Early Medieval timeframe, and give a less anachronical context for the woad warriors to exist. ^^
As for myself, as someone who grew up in Normandy, I would really appreciate the Normands to be their own civ as well, considering how big of a mark they left on Western Europe during the Middle Age.
Other ragbags civilizations that I think deserve subdivisions includes the Turks and the Persians. As such, they could be broken down into the Sassanids (the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire), the Ottomans (since the Turks currently in-game are mostly based on the Ottomans), the Seljukids (who are basically Turko-Persian) and the Ghurids (an Indo-Persian Sultanate).
That's an excellent starting point for me, thank you so much Lif! My project list is starting to get a little full, so it may be a couple months before I can do a video on the Zapotecs, but I will absolutely put them on there. Thank you so much for the suggestion my friend! Really hope to see you in the comment section of some of my future videos.
I would 100% support an updated William Wallace campaign! According to an aunt of mine who's really into genealogy he's actually an ancestor of mine (probably an exaggeration, but absolutely huge if true).
The Picts are an interesting one! Though they definitely fall within the aoe2 relevant time frame, their general theming and technology level seems to fit aoe1 a lot more. I'll look into them though! And even if I don't tackle them as part of the celt subdivision I might revisit them if I ever get into aoe1 civs someday.
You and I are very aligned on the ragbag front it would seem! Some others I would throw in there include, but are not limited to, the saracens (who I've started on already), the Huns/Mongols, the Slavs, the Italians, the Goths, and the Vikings (who I've also done a little bit on). Certainly enough options to keep me busy with videos for the next decade or so!
It's so funny that you mentioned the Normans, they were one of the first civs that I thought of when I first started considering what was left to be added to AOE2. I don't know an awful lot about them, but if you have any knowledge about them or would be interested in participating, would you be interested in doing a collab with me?
Honestly there are too much nomad horsmen in the game alredy.
I can see why you'd think that. I tried to make them as different as I could from the other nomads, with a more defensive playstyle and some gunpowder. Plus, it felt like a good way to start my subdivision of the Chinese.
But I don't think I will be making another nomad civilization for a good while after this one. Are there any civilizations that you'd like to see in particular?
Thanks for watching man!