Check out the Merch Store: growling-sidewinder.creator-spring.com So it seems like the F-22 is obviously a very competent opponent for the Viper but assuming you can pull the F22 to the ground you might be able to do some special things with the Viper now, hope you guys enjoyed the video thank you for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
The missiles in a Fox-2 would most likely be decisive. A Viper with Python missiles would probably easily defeat most everything with less capable missiles - maybe even with the AIM-9x. Maybe, but I suspect the 9x is much more capable than is being publicly acknowledged. At any rate, most Fox-2s have high PK frontal shots coming into a merge, so that loopy stuff isn't typically going to be needed.
To those who are claiming the Viper is now over-performing. Keep in mind, the Raptor is most likely underperforming. The true capabilities of the F-22 are still classified, to the point that real Raptor pilots aren't allowed to use the Raptor to its full potential when training with allied countries. The viper is just doing what the viper can do. The Raptor capabilities can't be increased in DCS due to nobody really knowing its full capabilities. Just food for thought. Awesome video as always.
@@xchalibur77 Where do you get your intel from? I've heard they plan on having Raptors active for the next couple decades at least. And Rambler88 is absolutely correct. I have heard from many sources that they do NOT show the full capabilities of the Raptor for this very reason.
To everyone saying the F16 is now better than an F22, keep in mind GS is a very skilled pilot and no shade to the F22 pilot but had GS flown both the F22 would win 93/100 times. And with Fox 2's the F22 would win 100% of the time.
This goes back to Col John Boyd. Machines don't win fights, men do. GS broke the OODA loop on the F22 pilot. Stealth is nice, unless you are bounced from behind and have to dogfight. You better know how
I agree. I am not sure why all his opponents fight on his terms. If I see him pulling to the deck for a rate fight, I am pulling up and then diving for energy, especially with the raptor and a guns only fight. Don’t fight their fight, fight yours and force them to fight to your strength.
A lot of people who claim the Viper is now overperforming need to remember this: the Viper is *THE* standard for dogfighting among Western fighters in the 4th Gen. There's a reason why it was such a huge success as an export fighter (26 countries outside of the US either purchased or leased them). Meanwhile the Eagle has only been exported to 6 countries, the Hornet to 7, and the Mirage 2000 to 3. Yes, we have newer hotness around like the Gripen, the Rafale, and the Typhoon, but the Viper is the benchmark they were/are compared to for dogfighting and multi-mission capability.
@@GrowlingSidewinder Thanks. Another way to look at it is the Viper came out when the MiG-23 was the USSR's new hotness for dogfighting (though it's more interceptor than dogfighter in how it flies). The Soviets built the MiG-29 *specifically* to kill the Viper just as the Su-27 was designed *specifically* to kill the Eagle and Tomcat. Heck, even Japan used the Viper as their baseline for a new fighter in the 90s (the F-2 "Viper Zero") because the design is just that good. Speaking of which, an F-2 mod could be quite interesting. Won't have the same acceleration characteristics, but that larger wing could give it better one-circle ability and not really do too much to hamper it in the rate fight.
@@Michael-ji3gw Pricetag alone is only one factor. The cost-effectiveness is the key. There *are* better Air Superiority fighters than the Viper within its generation with the F-15 being an obvious example. But it does better overall per dollar spent compared to its contemporaries.
@@A.i.r_K fighting falcon is official Lockheed Martin / General Dynamics designation, while AF pilots call it Viper. It will always be fighting falcon for me.
Let's also keep in mind the F22 flight model here is a best guess since real performance parameters for that thing are not readily available on the internet
It's amazing what happens when you make the slightest mistake against a well-piloted Raptor. But I can see that the upgrades have made the Viper a dangerous opponent for anything. Fox 2 fight next!
All depends on the pilot. I’ve been a f-16 crew chief for the past 15 years. Back when Tyndall afb got there first f-22s we were there with 1980 block 25 f-16s and we got air to air kills lol they were after the f-22s were down to only guns but we got some kills.
@@tastywaves6043 Fighter Mafia, that gave us the F-15 and F-16 : "Not a pound for air to ground." They hated the multi-role abomination that the F-4 had been turned into.
@@debbiestimac5175 completely different today though aye, probably because I think the Fa18 really showed the effectiveness of a multirole fighter. Think it really influenced the multirole F16 and F15E/EX variants today.
@@joshburke4083 Those are all replacements of sort, for the A-7 Corsair II. We needed something to fulfill that role and instead of a dedicated strike aircraft like the Thud, they adapted existing platforms, which has nothing to do with their air superiority origins. I can put mud tires on a Corvette but it does not mean it was ever designed to go off road, its simply a variation for specific need of a specific customer.
Also to your point, any new aircraft in the VR arena, especially in guns mode, is going to take a while to learn to fly effectively unless it is way beyond the capabilities of the advisory aircraft. The lean BLK25s were fast and very familiar to the pilots. I've heard similar stories from seasoned Eagle pilots upon initial encounters with the F-22. Soon, the Raptor pilots learned the advantages and disadvantages of their aircraft and the Eagle guys and gals could only prey on the nugget Raptor pilots that could be goaded into a particular situation that gave them a 50/50 chance. But, that's all the Eagle had.
I shot the wing off a Mig-29 last night in the Viper when he transitioned to the one-circle. He cut across my HUD the same way and my shots sliced off his wing. Most opponents don’t correctly go over the top of the roller and end up crossing their opponent’s nose at least once. Being in a roller definitely isn’t a death sentence, odds are very good that at the beginning of the roller, the player who is at the top will get at least one shot off against an opponent who is at the bottom. As always, the initial energy states of the aircraft when entering the one circle fight also has a huge impact on the outcome. For example, if you hadn’t cashed it in, but kept 400 kn, it may have been possible to go vertical beyond his nose authority and range and them ditch out to the rate fight, something you have done in other videos :). Can’t be too eager for that kill when facing a very capable opponent.
Synopsis : What can your enemy do that you can't and what can you do that he cannot. It's why flight envelopes are a thing and mathematics so important. Put him in the coffin corner and you will always win. Unless you open the lid for him and let him out, so to speak.
Crazy to think the original design and size of the f16 was smaller than what we have now. As agile and maneuverable the viper is now, just imagine if it was its original size as designed.
Absolutely fantastic! I know I asked for this but this warmed my heart for the f16. This also makes the flight model on the f22 far more believable since I'm sure we've all heard the stories of how the f18 and f16s could initially beat the f22's in combat when they were initially testing. But within months, the pages had turned as pilots learned how to use the f22. The DCS f22 has never seen a fiercer foe.
Having almost a thousand hours in both aircraft (real world), I would work on getting the Viper slow (if I am in the Raptor). Then I would take the Raptor into the vertical to exploit that exclusive space. Rate game plan is always a matter of patience…no matter what aircraft, if you don’t have it then you make mistakes.
I remember not long after the F-22 was first declared IOC (Initial Operational Capability), maybe a year or two afterward there was a video circulating around showing a T-38 (trainer version of F-5) killing an F-22 in a mock dogfight. This was around 2006 or so right in the early days of UA-cam.
What's I like about all of your videos is how calm you are in these situations and your constant application of knowledge. Essentially opposite of Top Gun (movie) advice -- "think!" Most, if not everything, in DCS is quite easy if you use the right tool and tactics for the job. A hard to hit target becomes a routine eventuality. A certain death situation becomes very survivable.
lmfao, that first engagement. I was all ready to post "All you f-ckers wish you flew the Viper" (DG obvs) and then GS has to say "Not like this ...." 6:39 - Yes !
@@mcdonnelldouglasf-4ephanto607 that's very doubtful it would happen in a fox 2 fight. If the viper separates the way he does in this video hes going to end up eating a sidewinder. He's forced into jamming the WEZ which is the kind of fight the Raptor wants.
@@mcdonnelldouglasf-4ephanto607 In a Fox-2 fight the best the Viper can reliably do is force a mutual kill by going 2-circle - which is something just about anything could do. The F-22 more than makes up for its lack of HMCS in a 1c.
Pilot skill is always part of the equation. No matter how good the planes are, mistakes can lead to defeat. Any war plane can beat any other war plane if the disparity between the pilot's training and skill is wide enough.
Whelp, now to patiently wait for the Felon vs Viper video! But I have to say, I would have never known that the Viper was this capable. I wonder how dominant it could be if it could be upgraded to the 4.5 or even 5th generation.
Alright, so, I wanna preface this by saying a couple things 1) I am a total noob when it comes to actually flying against other people. 2) I mean no disrespect or anything and am still trying to learn so I’m probably wrong but I noticed near the end of the first fight when you got into the rolling 1-circle (rolling scissors I think it’s called?) with the F-22, you could have right as you pointed nose down just converted all the altitude into speed and drove back out into the 2-circle instead of going 1-circle with the raptor, no? That was my first reaction to seeing that position anyways. Again, I don’t know either of these aircraft and am trying to learn more about them as far as DCS goes at least. I do love your videos by the way, they are a lot of fun to watch and have taught me quite a bit so thank you for that. And apologies for taking up your time if you read this
Hi there, Thank you for your support I appreciate it very much. To answer your question...I assume you're talking about the 1 circle roller just before I get killed in the first round. In which case you'd be correct I had ample time to ditch out of the 1 circle dive and influence a 2 circle fight (that exact thing actually happens later in the video) you clearly have a good understanding of some of the concepts of BFM so if you are new at this stuff, you should give yourself a lot of credit. You are doing great, keep it up.
Your aerial gunnery is getting better and better. Nice to see you take the higher deflection snap shots. You only miss the shots you don't take. Have a great weekend buddy!
Sees the title "F-22 Raptor Vs F-16C Viper Dogfight" ... yeah don't push your luck ... watches the video till the end ... ok I'm impressed XD awesome video, awesome work!
These are great simulations! But, wouldn’t it be great that we can test the Raptor versus what could’ve been the Black Widow, or the Grey Ghost with the latest mods available??
That last fight I wanted you to win so bad. It was very entertaining watching this my god!!! F16 is now finally getting the respect it deserves , so good
@@nooneyouknowhere6148 Back in the day, we'd drive out to "the bomber plant" GD and watch the flight demonstrations. I know exactly what you're talking about.
I have read on Forums that the sustained turn rate of the F22 is 28 deg per second at 20,000 ft. At between Mach.4 and Mach .5. The veracity of this is always in debate since the actual F22 specs are classified. However, air show observers have seen the F22 perform min rad turns at least 23deg/sec. Still better than the F-16 at 19.5 deg per second. The point being that the F22 should crush the astonishingly good F16 in a rate fight. The “turn speed” or maneuvering speed in civil aeronautics parlance, is the lowest speed at which the maximum structural G force can be achieved without entering an accelerated stall, and in the case of a fighter, sustain. Pulling high Gs bleeds off energy and requires lots of power (thrust) to maintain airspeed at the optimal “Turn speed”. From Vg charts, the F-18 turn speed, is much slower than the F-16s, but at a slightly lesser G. Turn rate at 9 Gs and 350 knots is about the same as 7Gs and 275 knots. However, for a coordinated level turn, the radius of turn is defined as: V ^2 ( in knots) divided by (11.26 x tangent of bank angle). Bank Angle required for level 7.8G turn (is approx 82.6 deg). For 9 G turn is 83.5 deg. The radius of turn will be significantly inside the 9G turn at 350 knots. This means the tighter radius plane will be in a guns “lead” position against a faster aircraft which is pulling higher Gs. This is why the A-10 kills all the fast jets in a turning gun fight. The F-22 with its MASSIVE lift area combined with 70,000 lbs of vectored thrust and greater than 9 G structural limits give it a huge advantage, to be able to pull higher Gs at lower airspeeds without inducing accelerated stall, or having the post stall maneuvering, when used to its fullest, is a huge advantage. That being said, Colonel Boyd knew exactly what he was doing making the F-16 an energy fighter, and it’s still one of the deadliest platforms in the world. However, remember the AirForce admits, the capabilities of the F-22 are so advanced, pilots aren’t allowed to demonstrate them in international red-flag exercises. As the Air Force states, “the F-22 is vastly superior to any known or predicted threat in the foreseeable future.”
Hey this is all and good for play. Really enjoy your videos. You are a skilled DCS pilot and your videos are some of my favorite. If a real F-22 was about to engage an F-16 I don’t think the Falcon would see it coming. Like clubbing baby seals
Am on the glide path of an ANG refueler wing, but was in the grocery store when something went over that caused even uncurious to look up. Was in my backyard 90 minutes later when the roar of a beast caught my ear, and watched an F-16 on afterburner climb away with his wing bout 5-800 meters in trail farther out. They were probably over the next county North before the growl became inaudible. Nary a day goes by when dog baby and I fail to see a T-38 or two or three but those things sound like go carts compared to that F-16 top fueler.
In case my pilot and copilot dies of a heart attack, and then my plane comes under attacked by an enemy f-22 (hijacked by the enemy of course), I think I will now be prepared! Good thing I watch youtube.
Just talked to a viper pilot yesterday, and he told me that the only thing that can out-rate a viper on the deck is a raptor. Combine that with fox-2s and you have an extremely potent fighter.
legend has it that the raptor and the viper are actually super close preformance on the deck, of course no one who actually knows the answer can confirm it but its supposed to be difficult fight for both with a slight edge to the raptor. I wonder if a really good viper pilot could out rate a new raptor pilot, that would be a cool thing to see in real life.
Raptor has raw thrust to weight advantage, but it also a lot more drag due to stealth design, where viper has a very sleek design and high wing loading that help with sustained rate. So, their sutained rate performance on the deck should be pretty close if the F16 is in clean config with no pylon. But in a realistic combat loadout, F16 will suffer a lot due to added drag.
Imagine if you were someone living in that neighborhood. Quiet morning, drinking a coffee on the front porch. Then all of a sudden, you hear a dogfight doing loops around the entire town. Blowing out every single window in a three block radius because you’re on the burner. “Hey Babe! You know how you said you wanted new windows? Today may be your day! Do your still have that quote from that guy?”
This is cool, but nothing is all around as good as the F22, it's kind of crazy the F22 is so good in a dogfight, even though odds are any 4th Gen fighter would never get close enough to get into one. But this does make me more optimistic for the new F16 against delta wing fighters like the Mirage
@@Jonathan-yu9ui true that, it seems GS could be flying a turd, and make it competitive. Also this would be a totally different dogfight if fox 2s were involved, the chances of a Rapture ever getting into a guns only fight are little to none, I personally would like to the F16 go against other Gen 4 craft, just to see how the new model stacks up
Even tho it's a computer simulation of two jet fighters, I wonder if Lockheed-Martin would get a chuckle from watching this dogfight twixt their two steeds, the Viper and Raptor? I'll admit, I was cheering on the Viper !! I always do. BTW.. take away thrust vectoring on the Raptor, and I believe the Viper would be nearly unbeatable!! IMHO. 🇺🇸
This kinda makes me wonder if flight models of other dcs entries have more performance they can squeeze out. A year ago almost nothing could challenge the F-22 other than the Felon and some 4.5 mods. Of course in gun fights only. Still tho
I'm just looking at the G force Indicator throughout the fight. I feel I'd pass out through exhaustion, not of G lock, within 5 mins. XD I've got a question though, instead of pull back from the afterburner once you go above 450 knots, why not just pull harder?
Pulling harder won't help at that point. Before the changes I would have put the threshold at around 470-480 where pulling full aft won't reduce speed anymore and the only way to prevent yourself from going like 600 in a few seconds is cutting the AB. I haven't tried after the changes but it would make perfect sense for that number to have come down a few knots.
I know someone else already said this but even an underdog fighter jet with a good pilot can be a headache for whoever is in the chalk jet if the latter pilot isnt careful... having said that, ill have to keep that in mind when my turn to have DCS comes in...
I can see how it might be possible to beat an opponent by tempting him into a maneuver that will cause him to impact the ground. In a guns-only engagement, is "run away" a viable option? What if you're already on the deck?
Check out the Merch Store: growling-sidewinder.creator-spring.com
So it seems like the F-22 is obviously a very competent opponent for the Viper but assuming you can pull the F22 to the ground you might be able to do some special things with the Viper now, hope you guys enjoyed the video thank you for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
Aim 54 vs r37 BVR
A10 thunderbolt II vs f22 Raptor
@Nphekt Of course, most of us know already. F-22 capabilities are still classified.
Frick yes! I literally asked for this on the release of your day vs f14 update video
If you are so skilled as a pilot and enjoy flying why not join the military to fly fighters?
This really goes to show how important training and experience is for fighter pilots, and really for any warfighter.
The missiles in a Fox-2 would most likely be decisive. A Viper with Python missiles would probably easily defeat most everything with less capable missiles - maybe even with the AIM-9x. Maybe, but I suspect the 9x is much more capable than is being publicly acknowledged. At any rate, most Fox-2s have high PK frontal shots coming into a merge, so that loopy stuff isn't typically going to be needed.
@@roijoi6963 at
To those who are claiming the Viper is now over-performing. Keep in mind, the Raptor is most likely underperforming. The true capabilities of the F-22 are still classified, to the point that real Raptor pilots aren't allowed to use the Raptor to its full potential when training with allied countries. The viper is just doing what the viper can do. The Raptor capabilities can't be increased in DCS due to nobody really knowing its full capabilities. Just food for thought. Awesome video as always.
I am not so sure of F-22 superiority. They intend to retire them in about 10 years. If it was so capable it woudn't be changed with the F-15ex.
@@xchalibur77 Where do you get your intel from? I've heard they plan on having Raptors active for the next couple decades at least. And Rambler88 is absolutely correct. I have heard from many sources that they do NOT show the full capabilities of the Raptor for this very reason.
@@xchalibur77 they are retiring damaged raptors from the hurricane
@Eternal Peace no it really isnt, the f15 is superior to f16, the F22 in out turns them both. Even the typhoon out turns the f16.
Do other countries have a fighter Jet that is superior to the F-22 in a dogfight.
To everyone saying the F16 is now better than an F22, keep in mind GS is a very skilled pilot and no shade to the F22 pilot but had GS flown both the F22 would win 93/100 times. And with Fox 2's the F22 would win 100% of the time.
ehh f16 has helmet locking unlike the f22... might not be fair if the f16 gets 60ish more degrees of locking with fox2's than the f22
The whole point of the f-22 is to make sure it doesn't get in dogfights, it wants to stay hidden until it decides to blow something out of the air.
This goes back to Col John Boyd. Machines don't win fights, men do. GS broke the OODA loop on the F22 pilot. Stealth is nice, unless you are bounced from behind and have to dogfight. You better know how
Donut Person that is why it is an absolutely crazy machine... can’t shoot what you can’t see.
I agree. I am not sure why all his opponents fight on his terms. If I see him pulling to the deck for a rate fight, I am pulling up and then diving for energy, especially with the raptor and a guns only fight. Don’t fight their fight, fight yours and force them to fight to your strength.
A lot of people who claim the Viper is now overperforming need to remember this: the Viper is *THE* standard for dogfighting among Western fighters in the 4th Gen. There's a reason why it was such a huge success as an export fighter (26 countries outside of the US either purchased or leased them). Meanwhile the Eagle has only been exported to 6 countries, the Hornet to 7, and the Mirage 2000 to 3. Yes, we have newer hotness around like the Gripen, the Rafale, and the Typhoon, but the Viper is the benchmark they were/are compared to for dogfighting and multi-mission capability.
very well said actually.
F-16 was exported way more because it was way cheaper, period, end of story. Also it was multi role before the F-15 was.
@@GrowlingSidewinder Thanks. Another way to look at it is the Viper came out when the MiG-23 was the USSR's new hotness for dogfighting (though it's more interceptor than dogfighter in how it flies). The Soviets built the MiG-29 *specifically* to kill the Viper just as the Su-27 was designed *specifically* to kill the Eagle and Tomcat. Heck, even Japan used the Viper as their baseline for a new fighter in the 90s (the F-2 "Viper Zero") because the design is just that good. Speaking of which, an F-2 mod could be quite interesting. Won't have the same acceleration characteristics, but that larger wing could give it better one-circle ability and not really do too much to hamper it in the rate fight.
@@Michael-ji3gw Pricetag alone is only one factor. The cost-effectiveness is the key. There *are* better Air Superiority fighters than the Viper within its generation with the F-15 being an obvious example. But it does better overall per dollar spent compared to its contemporaries.
@@RaderizDorret agreed. If the f16 sucked, it would have sold.
Dear friends, lets remind ourselves, before saying "oh, with the F-16 I can take on the F-22 now." that its the lord GS flying the falcon...
You called the f16 falcon lmao what a nerd
@@xXKRYRXx I thought both the fighting falcon and viper are useable?
@@A.i.r_K fighting falcon is official Lockheed Martin / General Dynamics designation, while AF pilots call it Viper.
It will always be fighting falcon for me.
@@kenchen704 people here In Pakistan call it the falcon so that’s what I say
Let's also keep in mind the F22 flight model here is a best guess since real performance parameters for that thing are not readily available on the internet
these super low surface skimming circles are super fun to watch, they feel like youre about to knock off your wing tips
feels like that for me aswell.
Ever since the new adjustments onto the F-16 were made I have been wanting to see this fight. Wonderful thank you for making this video.
It's amazing what happens when you make the slightest mistake against a well-piloted Raptor. But I can see that the upgrades have made the Viper a dangerous opponent for anything. Fox 2 fight next!
All depends on the pilot. I’ve been a f-16 crew chief for the past 15 years. Back when Tyndall afb got there first f-22s we were there with 1980 block 25 f-16s and we got air to air kills lol they were after the f-22s were down to only guns but we got some kills.
Those early F16s were hot rods and can capitalize on mistakes other fighters cannot.
@@tastywaves6043 Fighter Mafia, that gave us the F-15 and F-16 : "Not a pound for air to ground." They hated the multi-role abomination that the F-4 had been turned into.
@@debbiestimac5175 completely different today though aye, probably because I think the Fa18 really showed the effectiveness of a multirole fighter.
Think it really influenced the multirole F16 and F15E/EX variants today.
@@joshburke4083 Those are all replacements of sort, for the A-7 Corsair II. We needed something to fulfill that role and instead of a dedicated strike aircraft like the Thud, they adapted existing platforms, which has nothing to do with their air superiority origins. I can put mud tires on a Corvette but it does not mean it was ever designed to go off road, its simply a variation for specific need of a specific customer.
Also to your point, any new aircraft in the VR arena, especially in guns mode, is going to take a while to learn to fly effectively unless it is way beyond the capabilities of the advisory aircraft. The lean BLK25s were fast and very familiar to the pilots. I've heard similar stories from seasoned Eagle pilots upon initial encounters with the F-22. Soon, the Raptor pilots learned the advantages and disadvantages of their aircraft and the Eagle guys and gals could only prey on the nugget Raptor pilots that could be goaded into a particular situation that gave them a 50/50 chance. But, that's all the Eagle had.
I shot the wing off a Mig-29 last night in the Viper when he transitioned to the one-circle. He cut across my HUD the same way and my shots sliced off his wing. Most opponents don’t correctly go over the top of the roller and end up crossing their opponent’s nose at least once.
Being in a roller definitely isn’t a death sentence, odds are very good that at the beginning of the roller, the player who is at the top will get at least one shot off against an opponent who is at the bottom.
As always, the initial energy states of the aircraft when entering the one circle fight also has a huge impact on the outcome. For example, if you hadn’t cashed it in, but kept 400 kn, it may have been possible to go vertical beyond his nose authority and range and them ditch out to the rate fight, something you have done in other videos :). Can’t be too eager for that kill when facing a very capable opponent.
Synopsis : What can your enemy do that you can't and what can you do that he cannot. It's why flight envelopes are a thing and mathematics so important. Put him in the coffin corner and you will always win. Unless you open the lid for him and let him out, so to speak.
Man, I was flinching away from my screen when the cannon shells were whipping past you in Round 4! What a fight!
Can you imagine actually pulling 8-9g for that long on some of those turns? Crazy that there are real pilots out there that train to handle it
F22 will outrate everything but still also dominate in the 1C. I'd like to see the new Viper vs the Typhoon, another outstanding rate fighter
Stop breaking my Vipers, damnit!
lold
Crazy to think the original design and size of the f16 was smaller than what we have now. As agile and maneuverable the viper is now, just imagine if it was its original size as designed.
It’d be nigh-unbeatable in rate fights
@@PegasusTenma1 definitely comes with downsides though
even smaller? it's pretty smol now, looks hilarious when it stands near f-15
The fight we have been waiting for love how the f-16 can put up more of a fight vs the f-22 great vid keep it up 👍
Absolutely fantastic! I know I asked for this but this warmed my heart for the f16. This also makes the flight model on the f22 far more believable since I'm sure we've all heard the stories of how the f18 and f16s could initially beat the f22's in combat when they were initially testing. But within months, the pages had turned as pilots learned how to use the f22.
The DCS f22 has never seen a fiercer foe.
I have never been this early, can't wait to see how this battle will pan out
Having almost a thousand hours in both aircraft (real world), I would work on getting the Viper slow (if I am in the Raptor). Then I would take the Raptor into the vertical to exploit that exclusive space. Rate game plan is always a matter of patience…no matter what aircraft, if you don’t have it then you make mistakes.
Excellent fights man, that last one was awesome! Love those kinds of kills when you get slow at the top of a climb and swing the nose around.
Round 4 nose authority in a slow loop was an eye opener. Great flying there!
Wow, round 4 was a masterclass in how to extricate yourself out of a low speed fight and regaining the advantage. Well done.
You probably didnt notice the F-16's wings as you were in the 2 circle...they were flexed like 3 feet up from the G-Loading.
I remember not long after the F-22 was first declared IOC (Initial Operational Capability), maybe a year or two afterward there was a video circulating around showing a T-38 (trainer version of F-5) killing an F-22 in a mock dogfight. This was around 2006 or so right in the early days of UA-cam.
What's I like about all of your videos is how calm you are in these situations and your constant application of knowledge. Essentially opposite of Top Gun (movie) advice -- "think!"
Most, if not everything, in DCS is quite easy if you use the right tool and tactics for the job. A hard to hit target becomes a routine eventuality. A certain death situation becomes very survivable.
lmfao, that first engagement. I was all ready to post "All you f-ckers wish you flew the Viper" (DG obvs) and then GS has to say "Not like this ...."
6:39 - Yes !
You nearly had him in the first round. Finally an aircraft that can take on the F-22. Great fight.
Well.. its guns only without missiles or pylons. Give the raptor some 9Xs and it'll be over in one turn, even without a helmet cueing system.
@@MrFarnanonical Naaah F-16 still can kill the raptor
@@mcdonnelldouglasf-4ephanto607 that's very doubtful it would happen in a fox 2 fight. If the viper separates the way he does in this video hes going to end up eating a sidewinder. He's forced into jamming the WEZ which is the kind of fight the Raptor wants.
@@mcdonnelldouglasf-4ephanto607 In a Fox-2 fight the best the Viper can reliably do is force a mutual kill by going 2-circle - which is something just about anything could do. The F-22 more than makes up for its lack of HMCS in a 1c.
Pilot skill is always part of the equation. No matter how good the planes are, mistakes can lead to defeat. Any war plane can beat any other war plane if the disparity between the pilot's training and skill is wide enough.
3:08 All I could think was "If it bleeds, we can kill it"
same xD
I remember when I played falcon 4.0. if I remember correctly the F-16's optional turning rate speed was 375 knots.
Showing what the F-16 can really do, great job.
Whelp, now to patiently wait for the Felon vs Viper video! But I have to say, I would have never known that the Viper was this capable. I wonder how dominant it could be if it could be upgraded to the 4.5 or even 5th generation.
The F-16 was built for the knife fight.
can you imagine the air force has so many good plane options, while the navy has trashcan f18s to fly ?
Just came across this channel, seems like I've been missing out on great content! Love watching these battles
All I kept thinking of with this fight was Fat Bastard and Mini Me.
F-22: “COME HERE! IM GONNA EAT YA!”
F-16: “eeeee!”
Lol, thats really kinda funny!
This was like watching Morpheus fight Neo for the first time.
He is starting to believe.
Have to admire the way you accept defeat, you make it look fun!
Love your videos!
Alright, so, I wanna preface this by saying a couple things 1) I am a total noob when it comes to actually flying against other people. 2) I mean no disrespect or anything and am still trying to learn so I’m probably wrong but I noticed near the end of the first fight when you got into the rolling 1-circle (rolling scissors I think it’s called?) with the F-22, you could have right as you pointed nose down just converted all the altitude into speed and drove back out into the 2-circle instead of going 1-circle with the raptor, no? That was my first reaction to seeing that position anyways.
Again, I don’t know either of these aircraft and am trying to learn more about them as far as DCS goes at least. I do love your videos by the way, they are a lot of fun to watch and have taught me quite a bit so thank you for that.
And apologies for taking up your time if you read this
Hi there, Thank you for your support I appreciate it very much. To answer your question...I assume you're talking about the 1 circle roller just before I get killed in the first round. In which case you'd be correct I had ample time to ditch out of the 1 circle dive and influence a 2 circle fight (that exact thing actually happens later in the video)
you clearly have a good understanding of some of the concepts of BFM so if you are new at this stuff, you should give yourself a lot of credit. You are doing great, keep it up.
3:34
If you listen really closely you can hear the F-22 say
"I didn't appreciate that."
Your aerial gunnery is getting better and better. Nice to see you take the higher deflection snap shots. You only miss the shots you don't take. Have a great weekend buddy!
tell that to the F-22 pilot making his plane lighter by dumping all that ammunition across the Syrian countryside lmaooo
Nice comment
@@diegoruiz7600 Thanks Diego! Enjoy your Sunday!
That's not how the saying goes. You miss all the shots you don't take. That doesn't mean you won't also miss some of the shots you do take.
@@wurfyy Being pedantic a bit, aren't we?
Sees the title "F-22 Raptor Vs F-16C Viper Dogfight" ... yeah don't push your luck ... watches the video till the end ... ok I'm impressed XD awesome video, awesome work!
Really went like "aight imma head out" at 12:45
You keep inspiring me to play DCS and not give up.
It's just amazing to watch the different ability of tow dangerous jet by Growling Sidewinder giving you more excited to show
These are great simulations! But, wouldn’t it be great that we can test the Raptor versus what could’ve been the Black Widow, or the Grey Ghost with the latest mods available??
That last fight I wanted you to win so bad. It was very entertaining watching this my god!!! F16 is now finally getting the respect it deserves , so good
The last round was one of the best I've ever seen in this channel, brutal
You sir are a patient magician! I expected 4-0 F22 here....The first kill might have had some luck, but that last kill was just beautiful flying.
Now if you can get that thrust vectoring F16.
Oh doggie that thing can point.
I love how the wings flex at 2:37.
2 of the best fighter jets dogfight eachother. AMAZING
THIS is the best! F-22 against F-16 🤤
The F-16 is capable of doing 360 circles *between the runways* of some Air Force bases. It's highly maneuverable.
I have seen an f-16 dancing in the air above lake worth texas. It looked like it had thrust vectoring, but didn't. That thing will do some stuff.
@@nooneyouknowhere6148 Back in the day, we'd drive out to "the bomber plant" GD and watch the flight demonstrations. I know exactly what you're talking about.
@@christoney2491 those B52s were loud! So were the F4s out there
I have read on Forums that the sustained turn rate of the F22 is 28 deg per second at 20,000 ft. At between Mach.4 and Mach .5. The veracity of this is always in debate since the actual F22 specs are classified. However, air show observers have seen the F22 perform min rad turns at least 23deg/sec. Still better than the F-16 at 19.5 deg per second. The point being that the F22 should crush the astonishingly good F16 in a rate fight. The “turn speed” or maneuvering speed in civil aeronautics parlance, is the lowest speed at which the maximum structural G force can be achieved without entering an accelerated stall, and in the case of a fighter, sustain. Pulling high Gs bleeds off energy and requires lots of power (thrust) to maintain airspeed at the optimal “Turn speed”. From Vg charts, the F-18 turn speed, is much slower than the F-16s, but at a slightly lesser G. Turn rate at 9 Gs and 350 knots is about the same as 7Gs and 275 knots. However, for a coordinated level turn, the radius of turn is defined as: V ^2 ( in knots) divided by (11.26 x tangent of bank angle). Bank Angle required for level 7.8G turn (is approx 82.6 deg). For 9 G turn is 83.5 deg. The radius of turn will be significantly inside the 9G turn at 350 knots. This means the tighter radius plane will be in a guns “lead” position against a faster aircraft which is pulling higher Gs. This is why the A-10 kills all the fast jets in a turning gun fight. The F-22 with its MASSIVE lift area combined with 70,000 lbs of vectored thrust and greater than 9 G structural limits give it a huge advantage, to be able to pull higher Gs at lower airspeeds without inducing accelerated stall, or having the post stall maneuvering, when used to its fullest, is a huge advantage.
That being said, Colonel Boyd knew exactly what he was doing making the F-16 an energy fighter, and it’s still one of the deadliest platforms in the world. However, remember the AirForce admits, the capabilities of the F-22 are so advanced, pilots aren’t allowed to demonstrate them in international red-flag exercises. As the Air Force states, “the F-22 is vastly superior to any known or predicted threat in the foreseeable future.”
i came to "Growling Sidewinder Combat School" without expecting to do math or think.
Hey this is all and good for play. Really enjoy your videos. You are a skilled DCS pilot and your videos are some of my favorite. If a real F-22 was about to engage an F-16 I don’t think the Falcon would see it coming. Like clubbing baby seals
F-16C: What are you?
F-22A: I’m you, but better.
Am on the glide path of an ANG refueler wing, but was in the grocery store when something went over that caused even uncurious to look up.
Was in my backyard 90 minutes later when the roar of a beast caught my ear, and watched an F-16 on afterburner climb away with his wing bout 5-800 meters in trail farther out. They were probably over the next county North before the growl became inaudible. Nary a day goes by when dog baby and I fail to see a T-38 or two or three but those things sound like go carts compared to that F-16 top fueler.
can actually put up a fight now
When you said "no! not like this!" I lost it hahahaha
That was some 1st rate flying! Not many guys could beat an F22 in anything.
In case my pilot and copilot dies of a heart attack, and then my plane comes under attacked by an enemy f-22 (hijacked by the enemy of course), I think I will now be prepared! Good thing I watch youtube.
He got you with guns… just wow. Into the merge… cause that’s something you hear every day with the Raptor.
GREAT ROUND 4 !!! Knew you had him at the end. PATIENCE....and SURVIVE!!!
The one saving grace when fighting a Raptor with guns is the massive surface area you have to aim for!
It's really incredible how good the raptor is at both BVR and WVR combat.
Just talked to a viper pilot yesterday, and he told me that the only thing that can out-rate a viper on the deck is a raptor. Combine that with fox-2s and you have an extremely potent fighter.
legend has it that the raptor and the viper are actually super close preformance on the deck, of course no one who actually knows the answer can confirm it but its supposed to be difficult fight for both with a slight edge to the raptor. I wonder if a really good viper pilot could out rate a new raptor pilot, that would be a cool thing to see in real life.
Raptor has raw thrust to weight advantage, but it also a lot more drag due to stealth design, where viper has a very sleek design and high wing loading that help with sustained rate. So, their sutained rate performance on the deck should be pretty close if the F16 is in clean config with no pylon. But in a realistic combat loadout, F16 will suffer a lot due to added drag.
I love it when the pilot makes the difference.
I was on the edge of my bloody seat, all 15 minutes!!!
Happy to see the Viper buffed a bit--you gotta love that plane.
Enjoy your videos growling!😊👍
If I were the F-22 pilot, I’d take advantage of that sun glare during the circle and pull in the other direction while it eclipses me.
IRL the Viper would never make it to the merge.
correct, and even if it did...1 turn aim9x.
AWESOME! I LOVED IT. REALLY DIG the name of your channel too.
It’s crazy that a 4th gen fighter developed in the late 70’s can go toe-to-toe with the king of the 5th gen fighters.
You left on a win. The last one was the most interesting. Cool fight.
Almost had him? You never had him. You never had your Viper!
I was on the edge of my seat with that first fight holy guac
Horseshoes ,Hand grenades and Now F-16's!LOL
That last dogfight was an investment
Im impressed the F16 survived the merge.
Awe man that angle at 3:15 I thought you had him man
It’s time for the classic fight. F16 vs Mirage.
I was hoping you would make this video!
Imagine if you were someone living in that neighborhood. Quiet morning, drinking a coffee on the front porch. Then all of a sudden, you hear a dogfight doing loops around the entire town. Blowing out every single window in a three block radius because you’re on the burner.
“Hey Babe! You know how you said you wanted new windows? Today may be your day! Do your still have that quote from that guy?”
This is cool, but nothing is all around as good as the F22, it's kind of crazy the F22 is so good in a dogfight, even though odds are any 4th Gen fighter would never get close enough to get into one. But this does make me more optimistic for the new F16 against delta wing fighters like the Mirage
The f22 is only limited by its pilot's skill, but don't forget that GS is in the viper, making it pretty even
@@Jonathan-yu9ui true that, it seems GS could be flying a turd, and make it competitive. Also this would be a totally different dogfight if fox 2s were involved, the chances of a Rapture ever getting into a guns only fight are little to none, I personally would like to the F16 go against other Gen 4 craft, just to see how the new model stacks up
Even tho it's a computer simulation of two jet fighters, I wonder if Lockheed-Martin would get a chuckle from watching this dogfight twixt their two steeds, the Viper and Raptor?
I'll admit, I was cheering on the Viper !! I always do.
BTW.. take away thrust vectoring on the Raptor, and I believe the Viper would be nearly unbeatable!! IMHO. 🇺🇸
3:37
Lol that office meme
NO PLEASE GOD NO NO N O O O O O
Okay, GS. Next time you fly the Raptor.
This kinda makes me wonder if flight models of other dcs entries have more performance they can squeeze out. A year ago almost nothing could challenge the F-22 other than the Felon and some 4.5 mods. Of course in gun fights only. Still tho
The Fighting Falcon is my favorite, especially in Thunderbird scheme.
You almost had me? You almost had ME? Ya never had me. Ya never had your plane.
That last kill was soo good! This was great!
That was very satisfying... I think I need a cigarette now even though I don't smoke and am asthmatic.
😆😆😆
Graphics blow me away... I wish I could experience using VR
summary: at the start of the merge go 2 circle then go into a toilet bowl/death spiral then rate fight the f22 on the deck
I'm just looking at the G force Indicator throughout the fight. I feel I'd pass out through exhaustion, not of G lock, within 5 mins. XD
I've got a question though, instead of pull back from the afterburner once you go above 450 knots, why not just pull harder?
Pulling harder won't help at that point. Before the changes I would have put the threshold at around 470-480 where pulling full aft won't reduce speed anymore and the only way to prevent yourself from going like 600 in a few seconds is cutting the AB. I haven't tried after the changes but it would make perfect sense for that number to have come down a few knots.
I know someone else already said this but even an underdog fighter jet with a good pilot can be a headache for whoever is in the chalk jet if the latter pilot isnt careful... having said that, ill have to keep that in mind when my turn to have DCS comes in...
Whenever Growling Sidewinder drops a vid it's like early Christmas
I can see how it might be possible to beat an opponent by tempting him into a maneuver that will cause him to impact the ground. In a guns-only engagement, is "run away" a viable option? What if you're already on the deck?
4:55 "everyone's used to fighting the Viper with the old model, they have a lot of negative training" [grinch_smile.jpg]