Narrative Integrity vs Gameplay Depth | What Takes Priority?
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- The consistency in story telling in fighting games is important, but is it as important as having a diverse roster of exciting characters even if they've passed away?
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#mbison #fgc #streetfighter6
It really isn't hard. You can bring back any character, just keep him dead in the story. That's really all it is. Just "nightmare geese" them.
exactly
If Bison really is just a non canon fighter like Evil Ryu or Oni, then the issue is not as big. But from the way that Capcom is, most likely he’s back here to be the main threat again and make the story mode of SF5 completely irrelevant. Every game after SF3 feels like a retread of SF2 instead of introducing an exciting new villain. Setting the game after SF3 feels pointless since they aren’t doing anything with it.
The funny thing is nightmare geese didn't last night long. It only had one story relevance and was dropped and the characters grew past that and they overcame his recent passing.
Keeping him around for gameplay reasons only is fine for a modern day thing. But back then they always had to give validation for a character to exist in the game.
As you can see they stopped. That's why even decades later Geese is not in any Garou game only in KOF
Kazumi
Or this is NOT The Same Bison, He's a Nameless Imposter who stole his Identity.
I mean they already established that bison had like a whole project dedicated to making backup bodies. It wasn't a matter of if he was gonna come back but when/how. He's one of the most iconic video game villains of all time.
You would think that would be easy to understand.
Yeah, Bison always comes back.
He is basically just a psycho power ghost possessing bodies at this point.
I would be lying if I said Bison not being in SF6 felt like a void.
I didn't touch sf6 until bison was confirmed
Lol i just bought it @@JoseAntonio-qe5hy
You state that characters who are popular should be in games to keep them going. But perfect example is C.Viper. People love that character and have wanted her back since SF4. She has literally only shown up in SF4 and SF Duel, but she hasn't shown back up. Same with Dudley, etc. To put Bison in there on your bias and saying because he's Bison doesn't make sense. If it's a celebration game (Tekken Tag, MK collections, SFxTekken, etc.) then yes. But there are too many examples of characters being gone that are popular and that people wanted back but aren't. Bison isn't a season 2 character to bring back if he died. He is a character that if they do bring him back, should've been in like Season 4 or 5 of the game. Something later on like Gill or Seth was in SF5
She also appears in MVC 3
@The_WIll_OF_D99 I more so meant in a Street Fighter game, but you are correct
@@kkaerruu 😉👍🏾
I doubt C Viper or Dudley have the popularity Bison has always had. Its not too surprising that the SFII final boss would be so far ahead of a SFIV newcomer or a character from the initially underrated SFIII.
I think it's as simple as bison being an iconic character. Much more iconic and popular than both dudley and c viper
Bison literally dies and comes back to life multiple times
honestly, if i can suspend my disbelief that lily (who is basically a child) can hit a super art 3 on akuma then i can suspend my disbelief when m. bison returns.
Is not about suspending disbelief, is about creative direction being inexistent, doing the same thing over and over again like a freaking pokemon show
It has nothing to do whit something happening IN-game like Lily beating Akuma even tho that should be cannonically impossible.
Its about the narrative becoming stale, if Bison "dies" every single fking game, then what does it matter if he comes back again and again and again??? Meaningless.
It takes away the impact.
Also, it shows lack of creativity, they are afraid of doing new things.
Uh ..
@@streptococo4735
They've been afraid of being fully new ever since SFIII blew up in their faces and nearly killed Street Fighter as a whole for Capcom. It took Ono several years to convince the higher-ups to give Street Figher another try.
@@lucastonoli3256 Bison. Is. FOREVER.
He has billions of backup bodies. His soul merged with Psycho Power, goddammit.
IDK, It's cool to see Bison back, but the SF6 dlc format is dumb in my opinion. I Liked SF5 format more because more dlc slots means more chances that a character I would like to come. I feel that story and gameplay are important for a fighting game. Even if a boss dies in story you can bring them back as a extra character outside of the story. Maybe as a hidden boss or a extra character with no relation to the story. Capcom kinda mishandled the situation a bit
REDESIGNING CHARACTERS from the ground up takes a long time
@@ektran4205 longer if they take on doing more guest characters
I purchased a book from Capcom called “How to Make Capcom Fighting Characters”. In the first chapter of the book, they detail exactly how they selected the roster for SFV.
First, they chose the faces of the game, which are Ryu, Ken, & Chun Li obviously. Second criteria was nationality diverse roster. Finally, they didn’t want a lot of clone characters.
Capcom does mention taking story into consideration. However, in every single instance POPULARITY trumped that in the character selection process. Hope that sheds some light on this debate directly from the horse’s mouth.
Also, I’m willing to bet Heihachi appears as T8 DLC.
This art book is fire
@@Kara-de5cz yes! It’s a great book especially for that price. It has some great insights into Capcom’s process as well.
Gameplay depth/density over nearly everything else.
Did they just ignore Gill and the Illuminati? It just seems that SF3 is ignored by 6.
It's Pointless to call it Street Fighter 6, just call it "The Shadaloo Saga: Street Fighter 6".
This is my problem with sf6 so far where is Alex and Sean? Like Urien gill? Anyone ?!
SF6 feels like a sequel to SF5, but not SF3. I find it crazy how Elena is the 1st SF3 character we got and she’s DLC.
You're only saying this because it's your main. If it were another dead char I wonder what your reply would be. Every single missing character is someone else's main. How do you feel about them? Should every last one be in the game?
Yes, Tekken should go full Tag.
Kazumi wasn't alive for the entirety of Tekken 7 bro
Should be 60% gameplay and 40% story.
40% on a fighting game? Thats a little too much for something we don’t care about after a week.
To me the story and presentation helps get you in the door for the characters, but it’s gameplay and roster that truly sell and keep a fighting game alive.
*sighs happily looking at mortal kombat deception with fondness* consistent with the story, dead but still here and arguably another badass skin.. yes zombie liu kang, yes, ghost liu kang, yes.
JP feels really irrelevant now
They should do a cutscene with Bison beating the tar outta him ☠️
@@RealMikeHollow lol
A JP and Bison interaction or fight in story would be cool.
Why? JP is cunning and avoids direct physical confrontation, he is the complete opposite of Bison who approaches every obstacle with the intention of violence.
JP even says he is not like Bison in the World Tour mode, a man who was obsessed with raw power. While JP's signature quote is "Strength is meaningless. You must be disappointed".
Bison returning does not mean JP is just going to give up and submit to his former master because they have very different ideals on how to acquire power.
JP is a joke, G is the main man
the way i see it they should've done it like SNK did with Geese howard u put him in the game without him being part of the story
How SNK did it was the concept of the multiverse. Because in the Fatal Fury timeline, Geese is dead. While in the KOF timeline, Geese is alive and well. Geese is the main villain of Fatal Fury, not KOF, so players understand that the stage for Geese's villainy is in a different game.
@@Ninja07KeatonGeese isn't the Overall villain of FF. You would know that if you played the games. They had other villains take that role and have Geese so work on the background building him up for a later game or to settle his rivalry with Terry at the end. When he eventually died.
@@The_WIll_OF_D99 Isn't the overall villain? You must be a special kind of conceded. Geese is the driving force for villainy in ALL of the Fatal Fury games. Even when Geese isn't the final boss, even long after he dies, every action of the other villains in Fatal Fury is due to Geese for one reason or another. Even the current villain Kain is only present due to Geese. Rock is important to Kain's plan only because he is Geese's son.
Before I watch this, I will say this then watch (I see Narrative Integrity and dont want to lose this thought) . I am probably one of the main ones in opposition of cartoon cornball Bison coming back, and tired of SF2 regurgitation.
However as World Tour Story and the trailer hints. This is not cornball Bison.
Rather a new man who maybe via missing details Bison attempted to body jump to, or some how came in contact with Bison's power.
He states if he resembles this man named Bison, then he will take that name for himself.
He is very heavily hinted at to have slain Shadaloo recon as well who came in range of him, something cornBison hasnt been shown to do to his successful subordinates.
And the showcased round win, he grasps his seemingly rebelling arm and says to it, Show your worth, I will tame you in due time (Ill check details Mobile YT).
This man is someone who Bison could not enforce his will on right away. And successfully could indeed be the nail in CornballBison's coffin in favor of a new character while maintaining Bison's moveset.
With Tekken you really have no idea if they think much through nowadays, but its my belief Capcom is somewhat surgical with thier passive story telling. That escapes the common player.
And honestly no im not of the sheepish "Fighting Game stories or characters dont matter, or they would be playing VF.
I already forgot one point there, I believe this man is the Lily to T.Hawk for CornballBison. He will maintain this or similar fighting style for players while bringing a new personality and character to this moveset that many can possibly get into
@@Lucy2Juicy I hella respect you early takes
So rn there's a very high chance that Nash did not "die for nothing" just because of the weird things happening in the arcade endings
I can suspend my disbelief for anything fighting game related. Just give us good games and DLC characters that do not ruin the experience of matchmaking.
Exactly. I don't think it's as deep as people are making it out to be. If bison is fun to play, then that's that.
Ive said this before that if they were to ever bring back Bison they would have to do a reincarnation of him with a different and a different name while having the character retains his playstyle (such as the case for say Kimberly that fights like Guy but is a different character), that way every buddy wins.
It's more than just the playstyle. The character themselves matter too. I don't want someone who plays like Guy, I want Guy and many other people been wanting the same thing. I don't want Reina who plays like Heihachi, I want Heihachi. I don't want someone who plays like Bison, I want Bison. Mannerism, personality and development is something people are also fans of.
@@CGImpala Yeah but they're development is already complete in terms of lore. Guy has become the master and all of his teachings has pass on to Kimberly who does plays like him, so too is Heihaichi who had his arch complete and his legacy is pass down to his "daughter". With how we complain about Capcom needing to move foward getting rid of the past with characters like E. Honda & Dhalsim, we're just being hypocritical ourselves not letting go our past characters ourselves.
If Sean a popular character that fans like had comeback and has adapted all Kens playstyle and is to be the next new generation of fighters. Do you still want Ken even tho Sean fights lile him now, I would think not!
@@akilcharles3473 No, I would not. I don't want a hand me down copy and paste shadow of an original beloved character. Ken still has a way larger fanbase than Sean does who debuted in what was considered the worst game of the series with one of the reasons being the addition of new characters without the rest of the world warriors being included. A game without the world warriors should no longer be considered or called a Street Fighter game. Make a new fighter.
@@akilcharles3473 Advocating for beloved fanbases to go F themselves because of 2 to 5 hours of a whack a** story is wild.
Yeah, I want Bison. Not a cheap imitation. Bison has a special aura about him and he's the guy I've been using on this game since the 90s. You can't really recreate something like that. If this was a TV show, then I'd agree but it's something you interact with.
*i believe it's a case by case, according to the game and IP of said game.
*sometimes, according to the game, it can fill a niche that story gives weight behind a win or loss in story.
*but in some cases, if the game that is UNABLE to fill that niche, there's an audience for that too.
*if a IP that's known for either or tries to do the opposite will possibly alienate a part of the people that like the series, so much so- that it could make doing a drastic path change not worth it for getting a new audience for it.
*consider failed reboots, momentum story shifts and more- that's my stance on it at least.
*anyway, nice vids, take care everyone who looks at this.
If it’s really THAT important to those people then maybe they can do what they did with injustice 2 joker where they put him on the roster because he was in a dream sequence fight. Everyone happy🤷🏼
Geese never died in the KOF timeline. Even though he has not appeared in many KOF games he was never dead in that timeline only in the Fatal fury timeline(and the Maximum Impact timeline too I think)
I wouldn't really say a major reason why KOF is not as popular as othe fighters is because they don't bring back dead characters. And plus in XV all the dead characters are back anyway including popular ones like Rugal and the Orochi team.
And the story hints at so many more characters coming back.
Hell they made iconic KOF bosses come back as free because the story allows them to and it's fun for the fans to relive the Broken Boss days
SNK literally had to come up with a major story event just to explain all these characters returning. They didn't just pop out of nowhere like "we were alive all along lol".
I think you are right about saying M.Bison might be a new character who doesn't know who he is, which is fine.
But i think they could have done a better job. Like you said: people want the move set. Why not bring him back in a doll body or a Seth like body or take over Rose. But it seems he always finds a new body closer to his old one even thou he spends shit yons pf resources on making new bodies.
While Bison's return allows for some nice plot advancement in general, I'm looking forward to the space it provides for development of JP's character.
flashback is a good way to bring them back
M.Bison could have been Guile's paralysis demon, a representation of his guilt that he could have done something to save Charlie. Streetfighter is just too lazy to find new ways to integrate old characters that they killed. Guilty Gear does a lot better at this.
Edit: This could also be used to tie some characters together. Maybe Guile first sees Ed's psycho power which triggers these nightmares of M.Bison and creates conflict between the two characters. Maybe they become enemies or maybe they see eye to eye and bond over their trauma. This is much better and satisfies both story and roster.
Edit 2: Or they could have Bison comeback in another character's body (Good candidates: Falke or the Dolls). This could develop Ed's (if Falke) or Cammy's (if one of the dolls) story. Can they defeat M.Bison in his new body? IF they can kill M.Bison can they do it safely? Will the host's body and with it their life be lost? (Might add some other story hooks)
M.Bison is like freezer from dbz can't stay dead
I think Bison being back as he currently is is kind of meh. Bison being "dead" was a cool opportunity for Capcom to reinvent him in a way that is satisfying to both returning and new players.
I personally would've preferred if they introduced a mysterious new character who has some of Bison's iconic moves, but looks nothing like the Bison we've known. That way, the fans of Bison's gameplay can still have that while still providing something new and while also progressing Street Fighter's story.
Ryu pushes, Ken loves his family, and Bison is relentless. He will always try to impose his will through power (and power through will), even on Fate itself. That has been his narrative since the 90s.
Why people act surprised whenever he comes back is odd, this is literally his thing. If you actually value and respect the lore, then you will respect Bison's individual lore.
It's been about 10 years in game time since Bison "died", now we find out that he tanked Ryu's attack and the collapse of the base, but he has amnesia. His entire story is in uncharted territory. He's not hogging the spotlight, he's just minding his own business while he pieces together his life.
Lore whores literally got what they want and they are still unhappy.
I think part of the problem is that Bison kept dying and coming back to life. There’s no finality to his death. What’s the point of bringing Nash back from the dead and sacrificing himself just for Bison to not only survive the attack, but also come back to life again after he’s defeated by Ryu? While it is new territory for Bison in terms of his story, if we’re talking about respecting the lore, then the story should be moving away from Bison and Shadaloo like SF3 established.
@chefv1deogame Nash is just a worthless side character his story doesn't matter, Ryu is the MC and his 2 greatest villains are Akuma and Bison , Seth is a filler villain and Gill is Alex's Villain cuz in 3rd strike they tried making Alex the MC , SF6 wants Luke as MC but that ain't working out so they gotta got back to the og story , Ryu vs Akuma and Bison
@@JoseAntonio-qe5hy This is an insane take.
Nash is the main reason why Guile was after Bison in the first place, so to call him worthless is calling Guile & Chun-Li worthless cause all of them are trying to take down Bison.
Seth was never filler. Without that, SF4 never happens.
Bison is the biggest villain in Street Fighter, but he is not Ryu’s villain/enemy. Ryu never seeks out Bison unless he needs to, and the same goes with Bison.
Alex didn’t become the main character because that was back when people didn’t like the lack of old characters in SF3, but tell me why Luke isn’t working as the MC. He’s literally just SF2 Ryu for a newer generation of people.
@chefv1deogame Bison is the MAIN bad guy since the beginning of SF , Ryu is the MC to take down the bad guy , everyone else is just an irrelevant side character like krillin and piccolo in dbz , obviously everyone is gona try and take down the BIG BAD GUY, Akuma is Ryus only true rival... this is the story of street fighter, the big bad guy who never dies and the rival who pushes the mc when the big bad is not around... Seth is not important like frieza cell or buu are in dbz , Gill vs Alex is a spin off story that didn't work and ppl are trying relentlessly to fit it in , the street fighter story took a dip once they stepped out the og story line , I'd argue Oni/Kage/Evil Ryu/Violent Ken are more important than Seth cuz they all tie in with Ryu the MC , Seth was an attempt to push bison to the side but who actually cared about Seth when he came back in sf5? Seth was another failed attempt to replace Bison just like Gill. Gill may be an important character if they can tie his story with the og story but all we can do is wait for sf6 to fix its shity story telling
@@JoseAntonio-qe5hy Just because Bison is the biggest villain doesn’t mean you can’t have other ones within the same story. Same thing with side characters. The MC isn’t the only one who matters in a story. Without Krillin & Piccolo, DBZ wouldn’t happen.
Gill and Seth don’t exist to replace Bison. Cell doesn’t replace Frieza. Two evil characters can exist in the same space. Just in case you forgot, there is no Juri or C. Viper without Seth. The problem isn’t the villlains. You said it yourself: it’s the storytelling. SF3 DOES fit into the story cause it’s supposed to be after Bison is dead, but they’re still not really ready to move past him.
Evil Ryu is more important than Seth to Ryu, but the same goes for Bison. Ryu doesn’t care anymore about Bison than he does Seth.
The story of Street Fighter is not just about Ryu, Bison, and Akuma. If you boil it down to just these three, then the story is extremely boring.
“Ryu goes to fight Bison. Akuma kills Bison and then fights Ryu. Bison comes back to life. Akuma fights Ryu again. Ryu fights Bison and wins.”
Unless the story is built around having a few characters, you cannot make a story with a ton of characters and act like none of them matter. If all of the side characters were truly irrelevant, then they either wouldn’t be in the game or they would have the same lines over and over again. This is why Tekken 8 is coming out with a DLC story to show why the other characters are important.
Love your videos, sir.
This is a tale as old as time, however. Ever since Sonya Blade wasn’t playable in MK2.
Characters come and go when it comes to playability, and companies flavor their absence with the story.
Your point about maintaining players that connected with a character can be said about El Fuerte, or Kotal Kahn, or G, or Crimson Viper.
We can’t have rosters including EVERY character.
Exactly
Ok you bring up an interesting point here. I'm someone who loves the narrative of fighting games but I see your point, removing fighters from the game for story reasons definitely hurts the player base. My main complaint with fighting game stories is they never really move forward, they don't need to kill people to move the narrative. Is Kazuya just sitting around pissed until Heihachi announces the next tournament? Is Heihachi just sitting around like "I hate Kazuya......better announce the tournament so I can have a reason to fight him". Like do something creative with your stories that don't involve death. Why can't a new character come along, kick Heihachi's ass, and distract him from Kazuya temporarily. Or have Heihachi train someone since he's gettin up there in age and have that person challenge Kaz (I despise Reina but she could work). They don't need death to be the solution to character problems, put Bison in cuffs and take his ass to jail lmao!
Id like it if instead of bison beong back again, people are just hallucinating him being back due to his psycho power still having traces around near shadaloo related places
that too
Like Injustice 2 joker?
Yo, that would work perfectly! It would make for a believable story, too. People hallucinating Bison, and acting on it, in public, would be interesting to see; plus, they could make it as if JP is responsible for the hallucinations.
Its because he's the original big boss and wayy cooler than that boring ass jp fake ass boss...
There was a saying in the gaming community that worked for 25 years. In Mortal Kombat, no one dies. In Street Fighter, if you die you stay dead. I think the roles have reversed since 2015.
But the problem is that even taht is consistent, the Bison thing is to reborn and live forever, he is a force that can not die, that is his thing, people just cant see it
No we can see it we just tired as shit of it lol we’ve always known this but why build entire narratives around tired ass ideas? Surely you can see the coin from the other side. These people built an entire DLC to put him down for good and claim a so called fresh start for the series only “hhaaaa got yo dumb ass we gon bring him back again and negate it all AGAIN”. I digress tho lmao. I knew SF wasn’t on 💩 when they brought Gouken Back.
In Alpha 3, when reaching Bison with Guy, Bison states: "I have gone by many different names throughout history. But each has always been marked by fear and despair." So, there you have it... Storywise Bison cannot be killed for good. And this was established way back in 1998. So what seems to be the fuss about him being back?
Likely people that started with SFV. Bisons story has always clearly outlined that he's basically unkillable in the SF universe. Akuma hit him with the Shun Goku Satsu which should have obliterated him, but he returned.
Great post.
Newbies don't know the basics of these characters
A character not being on the roster because they died in the story is like a shooter not having certain guns because they're not manufactured anymore.
Good video Mike.
Having access to a character is more important to me, than removing them because story mode says so.
Thank you, sir ☝🏾
The main thing I don’t like about Bison coming back is that his death doesn’t mean anything. Why kill him if he’ll just revive in the next game?
It’s like he’s trying to be similar to villains like Bowser or Dr. Eggman where they lose and then come back in the next game to return the status quo. The difference is that not much about the world changes once Bowser & Dr. Eggman get defeated whereas the world is constantly evolving every time Bison dies.
I mean, this is like the 4th time they've apparently killed Bison so I'm not even surprised at this point. He's always transferred bodies. It might help Capcom to just stop trying to kill him and move his story in another direction, but he's clearly too popular to let go.
@@RealMikeHollow They should’ve made him like the Ghost Bison at the beginning of SF5 story mode. At least that way he’s still relevant, but a lot less focused on.
The narrative and characters bio also make you more attached to the character. I loved Law and Paul dynamic. I loved that being hardcore fighters they had that human/goofy side, but I absolutely hate how BamCo turned them into a bunch of broke bums. Marshall Law was struggling and wanted to pay the medical bills of his son Forrest. But now he is just pityful greedy bum. I really wished that Forrest would heal and take the mantle.
Arcade type of games actually don’t need much of that lore/story. Back in the day it were just some slideshows with text in the end of the arcade mode. Even classic Doom just had a few lines of text, you get a shotgun and go kill demons.
They retired Heihachi because his VA passed away. It is what it is.
That and his story was legitimately over.
(Btw they did replace his voice in TK8 for the recap story)
VAs are replaced all the time
I'm pretty sure Heihachi has had two VAs pass away so that wouldn't be the case.
Heihachi's original VA died after Tekken 6 and they had another one in Tag 2 onwards.
@@RealMikeHollow No. That was why they wrote Heihachi's end in T7. The second VA was filling in to send the character off.
If the FGC couldn't care less about what makes the character the character other than their design and moveset, why bother making stories? Why care about consistency, vision, storytelling, and continuity/status quo? I mean these characters are just functions right? So let's just bring back every popular character ever, bloat up the roster to Tag 2 levels of absurdity (assuming you want 30 out the gate), make each character feel less unique and cool (both aesthetically and functionally), and increase the match up knowledge. Let's remove any mystique and/or hype surrounding the roster because we know who "has" to be there and let's not take any risks and make the roster safe, repetitive, and boring as possible.
Not all parts of a game are equal. You think stage design is equal to gameplay? Well, story isn't equal or greater than gameplay. It certainly can be viable, but truly its just a spice, a seasoning. The main dish is the gameplay. The story needs to serve the gameplay and if you think otherwise, you aren't supportive of what the most important element of a fighting game. The fighting.
So no, characters will be different. A perfectly balanced game with just be a roster of 30 Ryus. But its fun its mess around with different things so its gonna stay that way. And yes, some people do "have" to be there. Its called legacy, but who cares about that. Why should a game company mix a healthy response of popular community interest with creative risks. The entire thing should be just a risk, make the game peaceful after the next villain kill, just a life sim. The previous sentence is what you did, taking a concept to a silly extreme, its not about extremes.
They can do all of that and if the masses respond positively then fine (spoiler: they won't). Sometimes risks pay off, but clearly Capcom have learnt from previous mistakes (the release of SF3 was shambolic) and it seems they don't feel like almost destroying their game again. If people didn't want Bison back then he wouldn't be back, but they do.
Capcom is cooking something good.
So Bison comes back, but he has Amnesia. Which is also the name JP used as a pseudonym for Shadaloo in the comic.
And Abel the spare body of Bison also had Amnesia. For years we have been told Bison has spare bodies to possess in an emergency, but this new ghostly-Bison feels like it finally paid off with consequences.
I’m happy to see Bison return for his gameplay and that for the first time, this resurrection feels like it used the plot devices Capcom has been writing. TLDR Ghost Bison kinda cool
I feel like they could have brought back bison as a new character, he always has backup bodies sure but him losing his memory and identity after coming back can keep his move set and introduce a new storyline rather than relying on the same story for over 20 years.
I like Bison but Capcom haven’t really done any new with the character recently, he’s iconic but he’s just stagnant at this point.
I think you make a great argument, and happy you have your character.
I think you are going to have people mad that their character didn't show up instead of a "dead" character.
Could the video game creators sometimes place too much importance to the Canon because they perceive the casual audience that plays the game puts high importance on that? Which I am not sure that they do.
🤣 As a Nash main in Alpha it sorta sucks how they are doing him dirty. Funny thing is when they brought him back I don't recall massive outrage as to how different he was.
I hope for President Haggar the most followed by Gen and Nash 🤣 ( hopefully done proper this time). So not overly bothered by Bison returning because its literally his thing.
I feel like the way they're handling Bison's inclusion in SF6's story might've been the best way to handle it.
From the looks of it, they're going with the classic amnesia angle, wich means he might as well have no real impact on the overall story of SF6 other than existing.
The other fighters might as well not know he's even there, but it still offers the OPTION to include him in future stories if they want to.
I could image he just stayed a hobo on a horse, for SF7. Not a guarrantee, but still an OPTION if they don't want Bison as the main villain.
He could even take Akuma's spot as the "secret mysterious OP fighter"
Snk solved this problem years ago. Nightmare Geese is used when he's "dead"
They only used it 1 or 2 times. They never brought it up again in anything ever. (Or as a costume because it looked cool)
Capcom solved this problem in the 90s, Bison is immortal. They literally tell you "as long as evil in the world exists, Bison lives". People who want to be consistent with the lore, enjoy overlooking the parts of the lore that they don't agree with.
@@ouranos0101 the issue with that is for years within the story Post SF 3 they confirmed he was gone. It was truly over.
Especially in SF 5 they make it a big moment Bison is dead and Ryu used his training to do so.
They also never really said Bison was immortal. He had to make spare bodies to hold his power and gave it to others as a fail safe.
In lore Bison has been gone for decades. That's the longest he's ever been gone. But we still need to know who this new M.Bison is
@@The_WIll_OF_D99Bison is gone. Literally in the trailer he says I’m going to take the name bison for myself
@The_WIll_OF_D99 He was dead and playable. So what's your point? How many Fatal Fury games can you not play geese other than Mark of the wolves?
I mean, i gotta agree with your talking points. Tekken 8 imo is going through this same thing.the removal of Heihachi ,Bruce, Anna,Armor King,Julia/Michelle Chang,Ganryu ,Miguel,Bob,Master Raven.Kunimitsu etc are mostly missing from the main roster. I wouldn't even mind lucky chloe coming back. Imo I believe tekken 8 roster just isn't good enough. At least those in SF 6 get Bison back. I enjoyed learning Geese in T7. Cool character design. Seriously cool. I think it's why I played Master Raven, she is the best female designed tekken character and Katarina/Zafina. They look different compared to the others. Story doesn't trump gameplay and what pisses me off is the internet acting like writing experts just absolutely ridiculous.
In fighting games... its all about gameplay and character tool kits. Look at SF3... they weren't even going to include Ryu and Ken... great game but getting rid of most of the classic cast was a big reason why it was a failure that set back the franchise for almost a decade.
Look Carmack said it best... the story doesn't matter if the game is good. Obviously there's games that are all about the story but gameplay first games with a pure competitive spirit like 1v1 fighting games... the story should be 100% in service to the gameplay and the characters we want to play with.
Great point. Gameplay depth vs. Story integrity. You just changed my mind on the matter.
oof gotta say i disagree with a few things you said in this video. It was a long one so not going to go point by point. I think we should just be careful about talking about stuff thats more based on our perspective/opinion and not facts. Sometimes we would be surprised how different we can perceive things compared to how they really are.
I'll start with kof and you saying its not that popular in the west because of characters missing and that simply is NOT true, kof is just not popular there for other reasons like the neutral is very different and learning 3 main characters is a lot to ask. People who loved kof didnt stop playing it when Rugal and Goenitz died and stayed dead,we kept playing.Kim was not in kof15 and people still consider it one of the best kof games.
Story is absolutely very important to fighting games,without that we would probably not like the characters as much as we like them today. It's one of the reasons that I've always loved KOF over SF in my younger days because I looked forward to playing the arcade mode and finding out whats is going on with the story. Iori losing his powers and getting an entirely different playstyle. SNK is a example where story can be the driving factor of the game and not just solely the gameplay. The difference with SF however is that Capcom has never really had a solid story for SF games. Ryu is basically just a crazy hobo looking for fights lol (dont take this to seriously) , so they kinda can do whatever they want. People are still upset about NASH and for good reason, what a terrible send off for that character,capcom writing has always been weak for SF and I dont know why. They didnt even try in SF6, they gave us world tour lol,they had a whole thing with G in 5 that is gone now I guess lol. Story clearly is not that driving factor of that game so they really can do what they want. Differs from game to game I would say. In any case, Bison is written in a way that always allows him to come back. I dont think this conversation is a simple this is right and that is wrong.
I love how the person with the fatal fury point about geese being dead failed to realize that fatal fury has been a dead franchise for years while kof, the game where geese is alive, has endured. You could easily see that as keeping characters around being the better choice lol
FF wasn't a dead series. It was mostly due to how SNK as a company was struggling. Because Garou 1 did well and they were working on a Sequel to that game. So much so you can find the demo disk and they brought back so many characters and new ones.
SNK had to focus on so many other things they couldn't focus on FF much. It was the same for the Samurai Showdown series.
It only came back in 2019 when SNK was getting stable because of the success of KOF 14.
At least be familiar with the company and it's struggles before saying something like that man.
Cool to see Bison back, and I'm okay with it because narratively, there's definitely precedent after he survived his last death in SFA3. I wouldn't be okay with them bringing back Gen or Gouken, because Akuma evidently killed them. They were my mains in SF4 and wouldn't mind a new stance character following in Gen's footsteps. Maybe in Season 4.
Good video, I've saw comments saying;
"As long as there's a good story reason for him coming back like kazuya from T2-T4"
The story for that was his company found him and put him in some sci-fi pod, it wasn't a good story, just acceptable.
I'm new to SF proper with 6 (played a few but never grinded rank)
All bisons story arcs say his psycho power allows him to inhabit other bodies
Yeah, he can basically transfer his spirit to different bodies.
I don't play these games but the closest example that I have experienced would be the mainline Devil May Cry series.
In the three games that had a Vergil DLC he never got his unique story, enemies or levels. We always just got to play as him through the main campaign of the base game no matter how little it made sense from a narrative perspective. It even went so far in DMC 3 that you just fought against another Vergil in a different color whenever he showed up as a boss.
The story should never be the priority and should not get in the fun of gameplay-heavy games like these.
Yeah, they could have gone the way of Heihachi where he died and they brought a new character to replace him (Reina) but there is a lot of risk factors involved with trying to replace a legacy character, could be capcom didn't want to take that risk.
If you really want to include dead characters in the multiplayer and have a narrative explanation it's really simple. In this case with Bison you could just give any character that has beef with Bison (literally just take your pick there's like a dozen) and give them a flashback scene or a nightmare about him that's a playable in arcade mode and leave it there if you want the character in multiplayer and leave it there for the narrative. You DON'T have to do this at all but if you as a dev insist on them being included in singleplayer then go ahead. We could have Heihachi in Tekken 8 rn and no one should mind if he gets added later. The multiplayer experience should always be optimized over everything even at the expense of narrative consistency.
7/10 opponents I used to play on SFIV were Bison players.
"narrative integrity" would be Zangief killing the opponent after landing any pilediver ...
There is no SF without Bison. Bison forever
PvP matches are not canonical to the story. Suspension of disbelief and narrative integrity are not the same thing.
narrative integrity is pertaining to the story and narrative written along with the game. that has nothing to do with whether or not the moves in the game are realistically survivable.
I mean, it's hard to be upset that a guy who has escaped and cheated death throughout the series has somehow found a way to do it again.
On top of that, I don't get how folks are up in arms before we even know how he's back. There might be a totally logical reason. He barely seems to be the same person.
Also... It's a fighting game... which have NEVER been known for their narrative integrity, cohesion between entries, or consistency. Part of that is because they got into the market to make a fighting game, and never really expected to have to link and combine 35 years of canon over a dozen different games. It's like the Saw franchise. It was meant to be a one-off, but surprised by their own success the writers had to try to find (or force) ways to make things make sense AFTER the fact/as they go along, which is hard to do. Plus most folks would rather have him than to omit him solely because he's supposed to be dead...
It's not like Bison is a Shoto and they could just slide in a different one that will fulfill the same gameplay functions. Sure, they could make a new character that plays very similarly to Bison... But we ALL know folks would complain and say _"Why didn't they just bring Bison back from the dead and include him? No one likes this Temu Knockoff"._ That's also the problem when you have a unique character that's as iconic as Bison... There's really just no one and no way to fill that void.
Maybe if FG stories were compelling, then I’d want roster to reflect story, but until then I will always see them as a side mode which shouldn’t sideline my favorite characters.
It feels a bit early for Bison to come back imo, but at least his moveset is badass
It’s literally as simple as you said , keep them dead in the story so it’s consistent but don’t stop them from being playable
The main issue is they hype up these climaxes and if they just bring them back it ruins the world building.
If heihachi comes back before devil reina as DLC what would be the point of kazuyas triumph at the end of 7?
We should expect the devs to respect that we care about the world they’re making.
Also rip JP and any third strike fans
I said this to him and it's true SNK and Guilty Gear and to some extent Capcom does keep narrative integrity within their games.
If you ever wanna see consistency look at SNK with their series. Guilty Gear as well.
Bison is still the most iconic villain SF ever had, his popularity trumps the ongoing story, because its a fighting game. And how do you keep a character popular? By continuously giving him great lore/story on top of a great design. Why would capcom part ways with such a character? He just needs to not be the big bad and main focus anymore to allow for other great villains to be put center and grow in popularity.
In many cases, stories for fighting games really make me roll my eyes. MK is probably the worst offender, in that they basically used time manipulation to wipe the slate clean anytime they plunge into a change they want to walk back. As someone mentioned earlier, it makes the story seem like there's no stakes. If there's no stakes, the story has no balls.
That being said, developers always prioritize creating engaging and visually interesting characters, with the story as a sort of backdrop. There are some outliers for me, such as Guilty Gear and King of Fighters. Tekken also holds a proud spot for having some of the most batshit-awesome showdowns I've ever seen in any game. Fighting game stories usually carry the weakest ingredients in the overall experience, but because of that, you can also bend the rules a bit when it comes to whether a character can return or not. Case in point - Heihachi shows up in the Season 2 pass of Tekken 8. His intro with Kazuya has him barking that Kazuya give him back the corporation, while Kazuya resolves to murder him even harder than last time. You don't need an in-depth explanation as to why that geezer is back from the dead again, since Tekken has been hitting us with Gotchas about Heihachi's death since the first game. It helps that a lot of the time, Tekken doesn't take itself all that seriously, so I at least can roll with it when it decides to get stupid. If a certain character dies in one game, there's no reason they (the fans, I mean) should resign themselves to never seeing him again when it's actually very easy for devs to just throw them in without having to throw off the story much, especially since they're not really out to tell that deep of a story, anyway. If I want something deep and engaging, I'll just boot up Elden Ring. Every game has a niche to fill, and for fighting games, if it has a Bruce Lee wannabe, it's gonna be a favorite of mine.
Heihachi by deafault has a spot, he's like a world warrior in the first ballot of characters expected to be included. Bison isn't essential wasn't a big miss in sf6 imo, loads of other characters wanted more. In sf history bison is sometimes playable, sometimes not, he's popular but not sakura tier popular lets be realistic. Gameplay wise he's been pretty polarising with his fans and his detractors. I wasn't interested in having him back at all BUT the trailer looks awesome so am looking forward to his release.
As far as the death goes I understand the narrative dissonance having a char dead in lore but playable, and how really making the players FEEL that the character is gone really sells the death more, that being said I'm gameplay 1st 2nd and 3rd so as not bothered about the story myself.
Just finished the vid, you just mention hanzo hasashi, chun li, etc... they do feel different from Bison, like essential top tier core chars in the franchise, I just don't put Bison up there - an iconic boss but not top tier as playable include.
The thing is, bison return has been tease in the story since day one (and clearly ed story pointed to it too), it was clearly planned. And i think they done it well, making him amnesic make it so he is not be the same bison as before, and so open the possibility of him not being a big bad anymore (still clearly sadistic/possibly evil). i think jp will be the new big bad and bison will become a secondary character in the future.
PS: bison aslo died 3 time canonically (and 5 time if you count non canon ending), once in alpha, he change body/died between sf2 and 4 and died in 5. so it's no surprise seeing him here.
Why does he have to be alive to be on the roster. Most of the characters will never interact with the main plot anyway, Tekken being an egregious example. Kazumi was dead for years and made the roster, but Heihachi is gone?
Bison has been killed and resurrected like 3 times I think not including the newest time but i feel the reason why people are so up in arms at it this time is because in sf5 they actually had a story mode instead of character endings and ever since mk9 came out story has been more important to fighting games so that's why I feel people are so upset this time around
16:25 if capcom are smart then they can start a Cody TV show tbh, since "they care so much for story" that'll be a good move, then move to make more shows if you want either live action or animated
I dont mind characters being in the game in a non canon way i mean look at tri borg in MKX
While I agree that people should have their favorites, you can just make them non-canon, not unlike guest characters usually are. To say the old, usual "fighting game stories don't matter" is part of what stifles the growth of this genre.
You have fans of all types. Some who value gameplay most. Others like the characters most. Some are into the overall lore no matter how silly. Fighting games in the past had marketing beyond the game. Comics, manga, artbooks and biographies for characters, TV shows, spin-off 4koma mangas for fun, on and on. Most of a fighting game's fanbase are casuals who enjoy these things. Why, then, is it so surprising that some might be a little irked at being handwaved by the more hardcore players? To them, story does matter. And to say it doesn't disregards majority of the people supporting this genre. Some got into a particular game because they saw a character's design and/or story and liked them. It isn't always a matter of "game fun, i mash buttons now". The people who love Tekken 4 aren't praising it for its roster or gameplay, but the atmosphere, the aesthetic, the music, the characterization. Tekken 4 sold well enough to have Tekken 5 happen.
I personally don't mind Bison being back, but I think it's silly that this is even a debate. Popular stuff will be recycled over and over, safe SF2 money, not surprising. I'm just of the opinion that it should be a non-canon thing to give the story some depth instead of perpetuating the same old "fighting game stories don't matter" argument that Rival Schools, Bloody Roar and Blazblue disproved already. The devs don't help their cases with such half-hearted writing majority of the time, sure, but it's not something they should be excused for. They sell these games full price on top of DLC like any other game. Raw gameplay shouldn't be the end all be all, not when it isn't even well balanced or finished the day people buy in (Tekken 8, SFV).
Side note, any game can have multiple protagonists and have a great narrative. No idea why that excuses fighting games. RPGs can have depth in their gameplay, and varying stories through different perspectives to tell, so why not fighting games? Just because they're ongoing? Again, just make the inconvenient stuff non-canon. Seems simple enough.
I mean, I said in the video that stories do matter but they just don't matter as much as the gameplay. The reason gameplay is especially important in fighting games over these single player games is, fighting games are typically played for years whereas single player games for a lot of people are for singular use. Again, stories do matter as stated but they don't matter as much as gameplay. One last year's and one lasts hours. Objectively speaking, the one that has the lasting affect should be the one thats put at the forefront.
@@RealMikeHollow A game's replayability and longevity are a case by case basis. See speedrunning in any genre or score attacking in something like SHMUPs or Jet Set Radio. Even RPGs are used in speedruns, and that's just one way to replay them.
If we're talking story modes are one and done, that's also not true. Some might be fanfic writers or something, so they replay a story to nail down finer details, that's their way of enjoyment, strange as others may find it. Or they simply replay the story again after a long break to experience the magic again. Whereas once a typical fighting game in modern era dies, it's pretty much deprecated (Tekken 7, SFV, KOF XIV) no matter how different or unique the system mechanics are.
I get where you're coming from, and I did hear all of your points.
I actually agree that, as of right now, gameplay is more important to a fighting game, but it doesn't have to stay this way, and wasn't always this way. Again, Bloody Roar, Rival Schools, Blazblue. Even Dead or Alive 4 proves this with its infinitely replayable modes which chart on the leaderboards.
There should ideally be a fair balance.
How can one be invested in a story with no stakes? If a story invested player knows Bison will canonically return at some point anyway, why care? This is why I subscribe to the idea that dead characters should just come back non-canonically so everyone wins. You get your boss characters back, others get a narrative they can follow in their favorite fighting game without the devs having to pull lore excuses from thin air (assuming they don't have strong story ideas to bring someone back).
I don't understand why fighting games have to be excused from being a full, decently made package. This isn't the arcade era anymore. A full price game isn't cheap for a lot of people, and most casual fighting game fans don't value gameplay more than fun with the story or characters. If all a fighting game has to offer is a laughable story that can't even respect its own lore and middling gameplay that only hardcore enthusiasts will tolerate, how else will the genre grow? Should it just stagnate and remain as it is?
I’m not too concerned with the story. Most of the main fighting game stories lost narrative integrity 20 years ago.
That said, I think we could’ve waited until Season 3 for Bison’s return. Street Fighter’s character backlog is huge, and with only 4 characters coming for Season 2 with half being guests (and our FIRST SF3 rep), we could’ve taken a 2 or 3 year break from Bison imo. Let’s ignore that Bison was a pain in the ass to deal with in matches in SF5 too lol.
I would say take the route that capcom has taken with characters like Evil Ryu in the story. Make it a what if character basically. I mean it’s harder to weave that into Street Fighter 6 with its World Tour mode but I believe that it is a possible option. Evil Ryu has never really truly manifested into a full on person in the story of Street Fighter only glimpses of him appeared but we didn’t get the full on magma hole evil ryu in the story of Sf4 to be specific. Instead they made him a What If character so basically What if Ryu had given in. It could be the same thing with Street Fighter 6 in this case and they could say oh yea Bison is actually a What if scenario. Now idk what is the deal but I remember in the trailer he said “you called me Bison so I’ll take this name” something like that which sounds to me like they were being consistent with the plot line of Bison having multiple bodies and all that. But I believe in the future it’s perfectly fine having those what if characters pop up as an excuse to put them in a fighting game. They did with Evil Ryu even going further with the character of Kage in SFV.
i dont get these people thats always about new characters and more new characters than old characters when alot of these characters are part of the essence of their fighting game without them it might as well be called something different or be set in a different universe
I picked up tekken in the late Tag 2 era and I think bringing back Heihachi as a robot would be sick asf and wouldn't destroy the narrative at all.
Just call him Hachi-8 give him some new moves that are equal to Jack-8 and the lore would explain itself by giving Reina some ''I want my dad back'' lore.
Bring back my boy Heihachi :(
This might be a bit of a long one, but I'll attempt to be concise.
I think there are 3 (or so) reasons that someone may play a character: gameplay, characterization, or a combination of both. Taking Dragunov as an example, I'm sure if you replaced his visual model with Bob, Alisa, or hell, even made him speak regularly, different people would have different issues. Some people play Dragunov because they adore his gameplay alone, while others may think that the silent, "white reaper" is a very cool character. I'm going to assume the majority enjoy both his characterization AND his gameplay.
The reason I make this point is because I think that story is the foundation of gameplay. In the MK 1 example you provided, the new Scorpion isn't entirely favored over the previous Scorpion - I haven't played this game, so this may be an incorrect - even though their gameplay is relative to one another. It's not the gameplay people aren't happy about, but the story of the new character. In fighting games, I think that it would be beneficial to keep the characters that are alive, alive, and those that are dead, dead. If you want to retain their gameplay, they either need to be revived (not actually dead) or they need to have their gameplay adapted by a new character. In this, I would say that you HAVE to fit new characters into the story in some capacity; they could be used to drive the narrative forward. Personally, I think that there should be regular DLC's that update the story over the lifespan of each individual title, so the story does not stagnate for a decade.
If there is trepidation about moving the story forward because of the loss of fans, due to a character leaving, there can't be significant progress. If the story continues, but the character comes back with no explanation, it poisons your story. I think the best thing to do is to make your story, bring the characters that exist into the story, get rid of the characters that no longer fit into the story, then figure out a way to make retain their gameplay. Miguel, for example, was a character with STRONG story implications. He wanted Jin to have hope before he killed him, so T8 would be a great time for Miguel to come back and either continue or end his character arc. However, if he chose to forgive Jin in T8 and let bygones be bygones, I wouldn't expect his presence in the next game without an explanation of why he's still wrapped up in events. To retain his gameplay, a long explanation isn't necessary, "He still exists in the world. He's not involved in the main events, but he fights near his home." However, if he was killed, that explanation wouldn't be sufficient. I think a King II situation would be fair then, a rough kid that looked up to Miguel as a nigh folk hero would pursue revenge on his behalf.
To summarize, story should be the foundation, and every other decision should work within that frame. If old players love a character that you have slotted for death, either accept that or come up with a way for that character to return. In T8, it looks like Jin & Kazuya don't have their devil genes anymore. In the next game, I highly doubt they'll be getting rid of Devil Jin or Kazuya's devil moves, so there'll need to be some kind of compelling explanation for their continued existence.
I disagree personally. I think gameplay is the foundation and story follows. I don't see characters as functions so I don't think simply giving their movesets to someone else will satisfy the fan base. If this was an anime or heavily story driven game then I'd be inclined to agree with you, but because stories in FGs last for about 4 hours and then you're left with the game for 8 years, I think your narrative needs to be built around having your most popular characters present. You could even do this via flash backs if you have to, the way they did Kazumi.
@@RealMikeHollow I don't mind that at all, "Your narrative needs to be built around your most popular characters present." If there was a correct way to incorporate both camps, that may be the best compromise.
Step 1. Who do our players want in the game?
Step 2. Make a story with them in it.
I don't know how they'd maintain those characters, while being in conflict, for large parts of the story. With Bison, though, they could've hit an Aizen special (too strong to kill, seal 'em) then this Bison is the broken-out form of that one. Perhaps had to do something gnarly to escape or solitary confinement made him lose his identity? Who knows, but I like your viewpoint. Plus, that viewpoint is more player-forward and I'm never against that.
@@RealMikeHollow Heihachi is back. You win this one.
the easiest way to put a character on the roster while him/her being dead in the story is what Tekken did with Kazumi. Just put whatever character you want in a flashback fight during the story and you have instant justification for them being on the roster while not ruining continuity or plot.
Guilty Gear did that with Klif but since it was mainly for the story. Once that was over he was left dead.
Regarding narrative, he's technically been gone for over a decade
On hiatus with SF6 until the DLC characters all come in. Really want R. Mika and Elena though.
I wholeheartedly disagree
Of course in a fighting game, gameplay comes first, but you can’t deny that lore is a huge deciding factor for people’s investment in a game/franchise.
Yeah we had 7 years of time between when we played story mode the first time in tekken 7, but you know what else? We also had 7 years to process Heihachi’s death, 7 years to play with him in tekken 7, and 7 years to mentally prepare for having a new main.
People need to get over it. He’s dead. If BNE is smart, they’ll keep him dead. Commit to your decisions.
This is why I’ll never buy it from anybody that says Mortal Kombat has a better story than tekken. When it came down to it, since deadly alliance the MK team could not commit to their milestones. Shang Tsung had a satisfying death in MK11 despite all my problems with that game’s story. But then right when it’s time to reboot, time to wipe the slate clean and undo the continual missteps of the past games, what did we get?
Shang Tsung is still the big bad
Shang Tsung and Quan Chi team up again
TAKE A SHOT EVERY TIME YOU HEAR “IT HAS BEGUN”
instead of committing to the reboot and letting this new era stand on its own, we have to introduce alternate timelines and the multiverse.
In short, yes. Story matters in fighting games. We’re consumers. The developers have to deliver on a satisfying package for us.
If Heihachi is dead, find a suitable replacement, which they did.
If Bison is dead, find a suitable replacement, which I think they did.
I’m tired of companies rehashing.
Bison's death in SF5 did have consequences. He is back but everything he built is gone and he doesn't even remember who he is. Bison is a staple character, and resurrection has always been a trait of his character. Being upset about how this arrests the story is just silly. It's like being upset that Joker has returned again.
Video game stories matter less to me the older I get. But don't get me wrong, I like having context. Even if the context is he died in the last game and now he is back.
In T8, the story is Kaz and Jin lose their devil powers. That is seriously the story. Nothing else of note happens, but at least we have a little context for most of the characters. And that is fine with me.
I think making it a matter of gameplay vs. narrative isn't the right way to frame the broader idea. Cause in that aspect you can do both. You can still adhere to the story being told while keeping a similar level of gameplay depth or variety. Even if you dont bring a character back, you could keep a similar style or gamrplay in a new character. Its not like that character could never appear again. Spinoff games or ones that take place before his or her death can still use them.
Instead the topic i think is a matter of something new vs something popular. Because people i think want both. Its just a matter of the how. Something newdoesn'tt always have to be a new character. It could be in the form of a returning character that people wouldn't be quick to pick, but could still bring new ideas in gameplay, round out a roster in terms of gameplay, or to continue/tell a story without going back on what was accomplished prior. However going this route does take the risk of that players may not always enjoy what is done over having theit favorite character back. On the flip side, bringing back all the popular stuff gas a greater chance if satisfying larger groups of people, but it also brings with it a lack of care for any stakes or story especially if youll continually try to act like youre having a climactic moment or continuing the story on from such only to undo it in the next game. It also still carries with it the fact that the rosters will then get very predictable and stale. As well as atill hacing those unsatisfied for still not having their favorite character because they aren't the most popular.
Its something that should vary on a game by game basis. But either way it is lame when they make stories for these characters and then make the next game's story undo it because they cant go one game anymore without one or two of the more popular characters. Not even a matter of having the character bsck in a non cannon way.
Besides its not like bringing everyone bsck is always thr way it should go. Just look at all thr hype that has been building for City of the Wolves. MotW was an instance of them getting rid of nearly all the returning cast in favor of a new generation of characters. Outside of Terry, the entire cast of MotW is new. Now in CotW, while it will likely bring back more of the legacy characters, its shown by now its not abandoning all of MotW new characters in favor of chasing all of the popular legacy characters. And many are happy with that considering MotW ended on a cliffhanger. In CotW you even have an example of what i mentioned earlier in one of the characters they just announced, Vox Reaper. Grant,a character from MotW, is dead by the time of CotW. However CotW introduces a new character who was his student. And he carries over a lot or moves and gameplay that grant had in MotW. Showing you dont have to bring a character back from the dead to carry on ones style.
You can have both. It just takes some creativity and boldness. Characters are functions at the end of the day. You can kill off popular characters as long as you create new and interesting characters with similar moves to replace them. Think Remy and Guile, two different characters who are functionally very similar. Games have been doing this for decades. No one wants to do it anymore there is a lot of money in these IPs and the more money is involved, the greater the risk so everyone play it safe. This has the effect of making stories bland and unimpactful which reduces player investment in franchise. Fighting game stories exist because compelling stories, even in a non-story driven game, draws players in. The more impactful we can make these stories, the better.
I don't believe characters are just functions. I think Soulcalibur V and MvCI are proof of this not being the case. I don't want Bisons moveset on another character, I want Bison. People become attached to using specific characters, not just for their moves but because of the lore built up around that character. If Akuma ceased to exist and they gave his moves to a new character, I doubt they'd have even a fraction of Akumas popularity or reach.
Plenty of fighting games have “ what if…” scenarios at the end of their arcade, modes and story modes. Large portions of these games are not canon the importance of the story should never supersede the presence of characters that feel like they are built into the woodwork of the game. Done characters just belong, no matter what.
M bison keeps the tradition of capcom's repetitive boss of every game.
Dr. Wily and Sigma is a good example, so ive gotten used to it at this point (not to gatekeep but thats why im fine)
Tbf, if they are going to bring back a dead character, you should change or add something new to the character and this time they did in a subtle way. I mean bison doesnt look like himself, he looks like reanimated (like frankenstein which could be cool) and use another type of power.
I been playing fighting games since SF1 and I only play for the story now. Characters matter more, good writers can bring fighters back, but favorites sell your game 💯
I mean SoulCalibur V knew that even though Siegfried & Nightmare weren't the main guys in V anymore in favor of Sophitia's kids ( I liked Pyrrha Omega her brother needed work fake Setsuka no thanks ) they knew to still add them because not only are they the poster boys but they fanbase would hate that they were no included. In 6 they technically should still be fused but they made them separated at that point. Its basically 2 & 3. Hell Raphael was added because they know people love him.
I look at it like comic books… big bads always come back. It doesn’t matter if it makes sense because it’s always better for them to come back. It’s really just remedying the mistake of killing them off in the first place. It’s just the way it is in comics big characters bad or good get the magical ability to resurrect solely to please pissed off fans and/or make the story good again. At this point I’m used to it and see street fighter as close to a comic book esque universe as any that exists in gaming.
This design choice is not always true a lot of comic book fans has taken issues with characters coming back to life.
It's just sometimes reestablishing the status quo that can be needed. But again that's not always the case. There are some characters in comics that have stayed dead actually.
We should get a JP vs Bison story fight in world tour now
Fuck JP....im glad bison is back
As ironic as it is to have SNK characters as guests, KoF literally didn't a damn about the players feelings about characters. That series actively killed off, had one time appearances and/or benched characters in service of the story.
They completely reworked a ton of their main/most popular characters from Kyo (94 vs Current) to Terry (Fatal Fury 1 vs MOTW) to Iori (All vs 13) and kept many equally dead like Rugal and Ash until the story allowed them to return to life.
gameplay Über alles
you can have the best story in the world, if the gameplay sucks no one will ever fondly remember it
First thing I want to get out of the way is the notion that barely anyone cares about the story or whatever. I think its about near the 50/50 range. I personally don't like the thought of Bison returning for a few reasons. 2 of which are narrative and 1 gameplay.
The first is that it makes the ending of SFV feel weaker and pointless. (original I know)
second, with Bison returning it takes away from other new-ish or newer boss characters such as JP. I mean at this rate we'll have as many Psycho power users as shotos. And bison taking center stage or being set up to do so, means other characters (specifically boss characters) kind of get shafted. which leads to my next point is
Character redundancy. This is more of a potential worry then a guaranteed thing to occur. I worry that by favoring Bison, that characters like Gill, Urien, G, and possibly Seth, will get ignored or overshadowed By Bison and get skipped over or barely maintained in favor of more popular characters. for example Nekali got completely humiliated as a character and was regulated (in Story) to be a punching bag to make other characters (such as bison) look more powerful and due to this STORY portrayal, pretty much no one wants him to return in a future roster.
As the best compromise I can think of, they should do a DBFZ approach where the story mode only allows selected characters to be included, but the game for multiplayer roster has more characters that aren't in the story.
But who knows, I'll wait for him to appear in a few days then I'll judge the story part. Maybe they'll surprise me
I’m sorta mixed with this since I do like his character. But personally, I feel like that there needs to be a point where they need to say “right, that’s enough. it’s finally time to move on” and give new characters priority. It’s not even just a “story should trump gameplay in FGs”point. I just want new characters to play as.
I think they release a lot of characters whenever a game comes out that people don't use and aren't popular. I think there's more of a case for those characters to make way for new characters, but it doesn't really make sense to get rid of a character that is so popular.
@@RealMikeHollow Yeah that’s why I’m mixed about it. I love bison and love that he’s back, but at the same time I feel new characters need priority. I just not sure tbh.
Keep them dead in canon, but if they're super iconic, they might as well be playable at least in my opinion. It's the canon that matters to me.
13:04 Side note. Akuma was at least in by the time of 2nd Impact he returned before Chun Li
16:59 I will say Capcom has seemingly been VERY scared to move on from SF2 that point is agreeable at least.
24:59 I finished the video, overall I believe it shows that there is a balance. Fighting Games will die with no narrative integrity or attempts at it at least or like 80% of the 90's fighters that played better than SF2 would be with us and Tekken wouldn't have pushed VF into obscurity.
Likewise the game can't suck. But I think history has shown when you don't deliver the narrative well enough, people won't buy, or stay. No matter how much players that call themselves dedicated think they hold up a series. It is the unfortunate state of the genre.
Kazumi was dead in Tekken 7 but she was still on the roster. I think dead characters should still have a shot at being on the roster, even if they're not alive in that game's story.
You definitely need to do your research before saying all this fam.
You mentioned Kazumi like she DIDNT HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY IN THE STORY 💀
1. She gave a reason for Akuma to fight in the story and Kill Heihachi and Kazyua.
2. Add lore to Heihachi and was killed by him which made Kazyua hate his dad and tried to fight him.
She is also a fighter. She had a reason to be playable. She was a big part of the story.