Trying out a RIGOL DS1054Z on a battery-damaged Commodore PC10-III. Can we find the fault?
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- Опубліковано 24 бер 2023
- The seemingly never-ending restoration of a battery-bombed Commodore.
Bought a new scope today, let's try it out on this challenging project.
Part 8: This video!
Part 7 here: Trying out diagnostic ROMs: • Custom Diagnostic ROMs...
Part 6 here: Getting more components back & trying to boot: • Getting the last missi...
Part 5 here: Getting components back on the board: • Reassembly of a Commod...
Part 4 here: Repairing traces with copper tape: • Video
Part 3 here: Removing the corrosion from the PCB: • Video
Part 2 here: Removing damaged components: • Video
The EEVBlog video I referred to here: • EEVBlog #704 - Rigol D...
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Tools I regularly use
DeoxIT D5 Contact Cleaner
Hanstar 861DW Rework Station
Pro'sKit SS-331 Desoldering Station
UNI-T UT61E Auto Ranging Multimeter
UNI-T UT890D Manual Ranging Multimeter
MESR-100 mk2 ESR meeter
PINECIL Soldering Iron
PinePowerPSU
TS-100 Soldering Iron
AMTECH NC-559-ASM Flux
MaAnt Grinding Pen
Multicore 60/40. 0.38mm and 0.5mm solder
TL866 II Plus Programmer
Tektronix 2246A 100 MHz four-channel analog scope
Rigol DS1054Z 50MHz four-channel digital scope
PCBs from PCBWay.com :)
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As a scope (non remote interface), I like the Rigol a lot. Especially after upgrading to 100MHz. But that remote interface is terrible.
I agree, the scope seems great. That software, however...
Did you connect the scope using USB? Try the ethernet port connection, it's way faster. Also, select a smaller buffer size since all that data has to be sent to the PC, like 12KB is probably fine for troubleshooting digital signals. It can do 20MB, which can take minutes on the USB connection and about half a minute using ethernet. I never used the rigol software though, but connected to the scope using NI api with my own application to capture the scopes buffer for reading flux signals on 3.5" floppies :) Worked a treat! I could capture a full track with the scope in 4 channel mode, with about 4-5MB per track. The other channels contained the inverted signal, index and the digital read output.
Thanks, I'll give it a try
I gotta admit though, Dave acting like that software would bring The Apocalypse down was pretty funny.
The software not mirroring the scope is probably by design. It gives you a second independent remote scope view. But I wonder why it is so bloody slow. As for pressing the up/down arrows a million times, did you try mousing over the numbers and use the scroll wheel on your mouse?
I guess it's useful that way for some applications. I'll try to scroll the mouse, thanks
Yeah, that could actually be very useful, to get detailed waveforms on one screen while getting historical trends on another. I like it. Well.... assuming it worked worth a hoot.
If you wanna show scope data to Us it will probably be a better idea to setup second camera to show scope screen itself.
Surely there must be a scope with decent software for YouTubing?
@@Epictronics1 BTW had you seen NI's Virtual Bench thingy? Heard a lot of good reports on it. I believe I've seen youtubers using it but I don't recall who was it. Adrian Black maybe?
@@lexatwo Dude, I'd love to have one of those, but they cost more than my car :/ Yeah, Adrian has one
@@Epictronics1 With the quality of videos you do and keeping the same good regular schedule I hope it won't take long for you to get good enough payouts from UA-cam and other Patreon-like services to be able to both buy a supercar and to be able to easily afford fancy things like VB. 😊 You really do an excellent job and my beliefs are that it should be rewarded in not so long run.
@@lexatwo Thanks :) I already got the supercar ;)
Man, I thought the Hantek software was junk...
Yeah, this was a surprise for sure :/
I have the same scope. I bought it because Adrian Black used to use it. Haven't used it in a while I have other scopes I like more. Maybe you should get a USB scope like Adrian uses now. Last year I bought a cheap Loto USB scope off Ali Express. Not bad for 100 bucks. Nice software that would be easy to capture for video.
I considered getting a USB scope, but I prefer having a proper scope with a large display and real knobs. I'll just doo the proper research before I buy next time :/
That software is Hideous! I am not familiar with the Rigol but as I said on the live chat the Siglent I have has web control or you just type the IP address in a VNC client. It works beautifully - only the framerate is slower than the scope itself (likely 30fps, so very usable). If you get the 100Mhz 4ch version it can be hacked to 200Mhz and you can also activate a few features such as wifi (will need dongle) etc. Beware, the WiFi on my unit is unreliable so I keep it wired. There are less buttons than the Rigol so some changes take more "clicks" but you get used to that I guess. Or hopefully you can find an alternative software for yours (which SHOULD NOT need an i7 to run! :) ).
Anycase, good luck and thanks for the video! Looking forward to the final episode :)
Thanks. The 1054 has LXI. However, It's the same crap as with USB but even slower!
@@Epictronics1 When I was selecting the scope I remember reading that the 1054 was a good scope but an old design. I know that "new" doesn't necessary means "better" but it was one thing that put me off a bit. If not mistaken it was launched in 2014, it's 9 years :)
You want to know the funny thing? I did not buy the Siglent for its remote capabilities. I didn't even know it had it and I didn't have a channel back then. On my earlier videos I was filming the scope :) I discovered the web interface half way through the "Yamaha" repair video! LOL! Then later on I noticed a "VNC" error on the web interface and tried VNC directly... it just works.
(BTW I am not trying to sell you a Siglent, just sharing my experience!). I hope you sort it out with Rigol - or with an alternative SW.
@@tony359 We never know what we need. I bought my camera to take pictures! lol
@@tony359 I have done some research and VNC seems to be the way to go. When you do a measurement with your scope does the trace appear instantly on the PC? or is there a lag?
@@Epictronics1 There is a minor lag (milliseconds) and the VNC framerate is slower than the actual scope - totally usable though IMHO. I'll take a video of the scope and the computer monitor and send it to you so you can see by yourself!
I love my DS1054Z. It performs really well and it's a pretty good deal for a 4 channel scope (that includes 4 probes -- granted, they're super budget quality, but they get the job done.) It becomes even more of a good deal once you hack it and unlock all the extra features (RS232, I2C, SPI decoders, double the capture memory, several new trigger options and increases the bandwidth to 100MHz.) The SOFTWARE on the other hand... yeah, 100% agree, it sucks. There are much better (and Free/Open Source) alternatives out there, that 100% work with this scope. Do check them out. Don't recall any names off the top of my head (I am tired and am not at my home PC right now) but the Googles should lead you to them.
Thanks. I'll do a search for open source alternatives
Sigrok is pretty decent on the 1054Z.
Nice scope once you load the latest firmware and enable all the features.
Since I only use the scope screen, remote screen isn’t that important to me.
@@roberthealey7238 Thanks
Yeah, I get the feeling that the software was only there to tick the box in the feature list, not actually be useful for anything. Other manufacturers offer software connectivity as an optional extra, so in this case it looks like you get what you paid for, and you paid nothing for the software.
I've got a Siglent scope which is about 7 year old, and I've been pretty happy with it, although I've never used any kind of PC connectivity. The one thing I find annoying about Siglent oscilloscopes is that when you stop the capture, whatever is shown on the screen is all you can see. Most other scopes capture as much as their buffer allows, and show you a window of that buffer based on the currently selected timebase. That means you can zoom out to see more if you're not already on the longest timebase. With the Siglent, you have to zoom out to the largest timebase you want to see before you stop the capture, then you can zoom in and hope that there's enough data samples to see the details you need in the waveform. If you try to zoom out any further, it's just blank.
As for software connectivity, according to the manual you can either use Siglent's software or National Instruments "Vista" software. But again I have no idea how well any of that works.
I think you're right. It was probably included by the marketing department. By the looks of it, they probably made it too ;)
The chip tester is nice and easily finds dead chips. Sometimes chips may not be dead but just weak though. They may be good enough to pass the simple logic test, but still fail when they are in circuit and need to drive outputs at higher load. I've seen this with line drivers like the 74245 (similar to your 74244 in the video).
Ok, thanks. I'll keep that in mind when I use it
Yes, I’ve also seen this with the 6502! Works fine in a chip tester, but too weak to drive the circuit on an actual board. Mostly seen this a few times in a Commodore 1541 drive.
@@dangoswick Hmm. Ok, I'll see if I have other boards that use some of the chips in this Commodore and do some more tests.
I don’t Rigol is anymore the best budget scope. That was 10 years ago. Also 1054 is annoying with the jittery rotary encoders. There were some open source software that was a bit better, I think.
What pens do you use to mark chips?
no es un osciloscopio pensado para usarlo a traves del ordenador, es solo un añadido pues para capturar alguna señal en especifico y tal.
Surely you were at the problem area at 19 minutes and those slopey waveforms?! Why did you not follow that up?
I ran out of time unfortunately. The 1054 is sent back to Rigol now, but I'm doing some research for a new scope and will get back to that board.
Rigol's software is a piss show, at least for 1054Z - as you had bad luck to discover in person by now. If your intent was to buy a scope with good software/control from PC - you'd went way better (and cheaper which makes it even more funny) with some Hantek + third party software for it. Other good bets might be scopes from Siglent as far as I had heard from my friends sharing retro electronics hobby with me. There are some models out there with VGA or HDMI outputs providing the same picture you see on the scope screen over the wire. Also heard that some Siglent models do offer an VNC screen sharing over the wifi/ethernet but I never saw one in person so it might be just rumours. Getting back to Rigol 1054 - it is a good scope to buy and use, dirt cheap, capable and hackable as long as you intend to use it as a standalone device, like a good old dedicated tool in a box without all of those "modern fancy things" like PC control, e.t.c., e.t.c.
Yeah, the only thing I need from the PC is a capture of what I'm doing. I should have done better research. The 1054 seems to be a great scope otherwise
The fact that your IC tester passes a chip as, "good" does not necessarily mean it is functioning correctly! I would refer to the data sheet and make a little circuit on a breadboard to illuminate a some LEDs when a switch is changed. The software may function better on a Windows PC if you right click on the icon and choose "Troubleshoot compatibility" with the installer, and set a compatibility mode for the installer before installing. Once the software has installed, once again, troubleshoot compatibility with the application, and set a compatibility mode. If that offers no improvement, try setting the application to run as an Administrator. Hope this helps. Have fun, and thanks for uploading.
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind when using the IC tester
@@Epictronics1 I went through that hoop diagnosing my old Apple II. All the chips checked out okay with the IC tester. The easiest way is to compare voltages on the board you are testing with a second identical system in good order. Chip failures are comparatively rare, but more insidious faults in these very old ICs are more common!
DS1000Z series is a great standalone 'scope, but just forget the software and PC connectivity. That's all garbage.
That thing has real knobs and buttons, that's a blessing, use those, don't screw yourself with PC software. That's not a USB-box oscilloscope.
I always shoot the screen with additional camera for UA-cam.
Anyway, data rate that oscilloscope is capturing can not be transfered through 100 Mbit ethernet or 480 Mbit USB. ADCs run at 1 Gbps there.
And the data that being transfered is raw data points, not the screen data. You loose much of visual information that way, because internal screen has "digital phosphorus" and grading while PC software can not do that.
I agree. The scope seems great. So, if USB isn't fast enough, what are scopes with a good software solution using?
@@Epictronics1 Sorry, I don't know any really good USB-scopes.
But I know that there are two projects for capturing waveform from DS1000Z.
One uses ethernet, saves screenshots with date and shows live wafeform (also without grading, much like original PC software), it offers no controls, only tries to display current data as fast as possible. Only for capturing purposes.
The other project's target is to create additional PCB, that is installed inside the scope between main board and the screen to give HDMI out for regular capture devices. So the whole screen of the scope will be captured. That is still in development.
Ok, thanks
Mac needs a slap around the disk drive for that comment.
Oh yes, that Mac joke was super-cool! :D
Haha, I'll throw him in the dumpster for that
@@tony359 He's rude, but he's funny :)
Mac Harvard making fun of you. Hehehe...
Mac Harvard is annoying but funny :)
that was a torturous video with that scope software
I still haven't recovered from the experience
I just had a mindfuck at 2:40. because I use same wallpaper on my IBM and I wandered why the hell browser disappeared from screen yet sound is still going on.
haha, that is hilarious
what is your camera?
d800
@@Epictronics1 with a kit lens?
@@hp2073 24mm 1.4G ED N
Is there some 3rd party software that might work better ?
I'll do a search
@@Epictronics1 Sigrok
it's a cheap scope, what can you expect? it's a wonder it can be controlled remotely by ethernet. I have one of the 4000 series and it has a vga output and none of the sw issues you showed. I had to use the 1054z in the past and it works, it's kinda annoying to use because of how slow the sw is, but it's what you pay
true. the scope seems great. They shouldn't have included that crappy software and won
@@Epictronics1 I actually like the feature. in the past I had to take screenshots of the stuff I worked with, and using an usb stick to do so was so annoying. I used this remote control feature to automatically take a screenshot from a python script, 10x more useful than the crappy software and 1000x more convenient than the usb stick
why do you use pc software?!?! I don't understend reason for it.... read from lcd on scope
I do, the PC software is to capture and show you what I'm seeing on the display.
lol Mac's back.
My new mascot : )
I'm more than a little late the party here, but that Rigol software ran like it was written in VB Script. What a pile of trash. I've been using an OWON SDS7102 for a few years now and that scope has been great. Some of the functionality of the Rigol scope isn't present, but the software for my scope works very good. No ten second delays, or even 1 second delays. Rigol should be VERY ashamed of themselves for releasing a piece of software in that condition. Further, whoever okayed that software for release should be immediately dismissed from his or her position.
I ended up returning the DS1054Z and recently got a DHO800 instead :)
poor ibm running win10 hurts me inside...
Are there other options to run an old T60 securely online?
W7.
@@simontay4851 Love w7, but it's been a while since it was safe to use online unfortunately
EEVBlog video: ua-cam.com/video/W2qdtQkBKhc/v-deo.html
yeah, I should have watched that video before I ordered
@@Epictronics1 sorry I just meant to reference the video of the clip you showed 😉
Are you still going to return it?
@@jerther_ If they take it back, I'll gladly upgrade to something better
that software is horrible. Adrian has reviewed many cheap scopes, they had bad software, but even those had better software than this. I like Adrian's scope the best. That sucker is super fast in the update. It's virtually instant.
yeah, his bench scope is very nice. I think I prefer a regular scope with knobs though
What a pointless review... Buying a desktop scope for really low price in comparison to other brands and shitting on the PC software... What a joke. The 1054 is beyond good for the price, compared to other chinese brands in the same ballpark. It would be the same to use the GPIB on the tektronix scope and view its output in labview. Give it a proper chance.
I don’t know, but “do it right or not do it at all” doesn’t mean anything anymore? Why you even bother to provide software if it is not working properly? Anyway it is a trend now, somehow people from beloved China are ok to design hardware, but software side is not here yet.
I have to disagree. If a product is sold as having software, the software should be useful. The scope seems great though. They could just take down that crappy software or at least tell customers that it has limited capabilities
@@alexbold4611 Yeah, they could just toss that crappy software and every customer would be happy