Extreme wood bending with ammonia
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- Опубліковано 26 кві 2015
- Bending wood with ammonia is not really DIY, but I show the process, which is extremely effective. There is also a commercial product that is pre-treated flexible wood, which hardens after being clamped in the desired shape.
boingboing.net/2011/05/06/inve...
Hmm, it seems the product may no longer be available -- I can't find it at Inventables.
www.inventables.com
Pre-treated flexible wood product patent:
www.google.com/patents/US5360631 - Наука та технологія
Hi ben!
Regarding your corrosion issues : if you manage to make your ammonia really anhydrous (for instance, by dissolving a tiny bit of sodium in it and distilling it again), you shouldn't get any serious corrosion issues with it.
What happens is that ammonia dissolves the passivation layer that forms on many metals. Normally, the reaction can't go any further than that : the pKa of an amide is way to high for it to give protons that could oxydize your metal.
How ever, if water is present, now you have labile protons available. The reaction that takes place is the standard dissolution of a metal in an acid, with its thermodynamics further driven by the formation of ammonia complexes with the resulting metal cations.
(That is why copper corrodes in ammonia solutions, even without O2 around, and despite the fact "regular" acids cannot dissolve it).
Also, regarding the aluminium, I wouldn't trust it for storing ammonia that still has water in it : the basicity of the solution might be sufficient to dissolve the aluminium oxide layer into aluminates, and quickly corrode the reactive aluminium metal underneath.
Try putting aluminium foil in aqueous ammonia, and you'll see hydrogen starting to bubble off. Granted, ammonia and water proportions are completely different here, but I still definitely would not trust it.
Really thorough and interesting explanation, ty
I can just imagine the stress and mental monologue that was going on during your mad dash for a container :P Excellent video as always. Just remember, no storing supercritical methanol in aluminum.
Ryan Willis Thanks! Did you see my video about supercritical methanol for aerogel drying? I was very surprised about the reaction with aluminum. I forget if I showed in the video what happened to the aluminum parts that were contained within the steel chamber, but the high-surface area aluminum screen completely disappeared!
Yeah, that's what I was referring to. I love weird reactions like that, you never expect them.
Sounds like the Al reacted with the methanol to make an alkoxide salt : aluminium alkoxide.
The same happens with alkali metals and alcohols.
I have been a wood worker for nearly 30 years and you sir are the first person I have EVER encountered that takes wood working to the molecular level. My mind is bent similar to the cork screw piece in the display picture. Whoa! Very interesting but far beyond anything I will ever need in my line of work. Your crazy smart.
This is so cool! I love hearing about the real world encounters like busted freezers and broken brass, too. Hope to find out about that dollar!
That's a great idea. By the way here are the best woodworking plans online: QualityWood.xyz
This is one of the most uniquely informative videos on UA-cam.
Respect.
Great video, I didn't know ammonia-treated wood was that flexible! The brilliant blue corrosion you described on the safety valve is of the tetraamminecopper(II) ion, most likely the hydroxide. Storing the ammonia in the aluminium bottle might be OK if it's dry ammonia but seeing as it is wet it is definitely not a suitable permanent storage device because you can get ammonium tetrahydroxoaluminate forming due to the presence of ammonium hydroxide.
NileRed making transparent wood and you’re making cool ammonia bent wood.
Love this
It's great to see people such as yourself experimenting -- getting it wrong sometimes, not declaring you have all the answers, just the true spirit of exploration and discovery. Thanks.
A PVC tube with capped ends, (one glued and the other using a plastic bag as a gasket) has contained my ammonia well for about two years. No idea if it's appropriate, but its been sufficient so far. Definitely works wonders with bending. Thanks for the video!
Ben, you should keep a video camera recording in your workshop whenever you work with anhydrous ammonia. It could make for some interesting viewing when unexpected things happen, and (should the unthinkable happen) it could help the authorities figure out what happened! Your videos are the best thing on UA-cam.
Really interesting! Thanks for sharing!
I subscribed at "I added a glass viewport so I could see if anything interesting was going on ..." Haha, love it.
Ben: Your style of education has set my mind on fire. Nurons are under rapid fire, its a blessing and a curse because I can't turn it off. But you should be proud of yourself your work is building solid foundations for all of your students. Its amazing how big of an impact a good educator has on everyone's life life they cross. Thanks much more than I can express.
5:59 That looks like one of those photorealism drawings.
many moons ago I found myself teaching chemistry to hairdressing students and this process reminds me of hair perms and disulphide bridges being broken and reformed....cool.
Jeff Watt I’m a hairdresser and that is exactly what I was thinking of during this video.
In the agricultural market, anhydrous ammonia is transported and used as a fertilizer in massive quantities. Trucks which were set up for hauling propane are converted for hauling ammonia by removing all brass components and replacing them with stainless steel.
I would love to spend an afternoon or two just talking with this guy...he is so knowledgeable about so many things...and he explains and describes things in a plain language that anyone can understand...even a dork llike me.
I'm so glad I discovered this channel I learn something new in every video
I'm so impressed by your videos! You're an inspiring person!
Another video of exceptional quality, thank you!
Just discovered your channel with this video ..WOW, fun stuff indeed! I look forward to exploring more of your efforts here, thank you!
What could possibly go wrong, eh? Interesting vid. Thanks.
I love the farewells in these videos.
nice work, love your great explanations! Most tubers are lacking that
Great video! So many awesome tools and equipment.
bloodwood, maple, walnut ... so basically you chose woods that through steam bending dont bend well at all. awesome
Thanks for doing the dollar bill trick! I never had a chance to do this at my old job, but I always heard about it.
Thank you for this very informative clip. I remember reading about this process many years ago, but it was described as an obsolete technology, once used on an industrial scale for furniture production. I'd searched for info on the topic to no avail. Your presentation confirms my take on the basics involved.
A couple of quick questions: have you experimented with maximum thicknesses? What about time required in relation to thickness? Did you run into any serious discoloration problems with any particular species? Sorry...I'm clearly trying to pick your brain...
Great Channel! I just watched the Led/Contact lens video and a couple of others and thought you might find my experience interesting. I had cataracts lenses replaced with prosthetic lenses. After the first was done, being a bit of a 'layperson scientist' I went into a darkened room with a 'black light.'. The left eye, still with natural lens saw small circle of illumination. The right eye ; lens replaced a few hours prior, saw the entire small room illuminated. I then looked on the internet and yes, some people were finding the same result. There is even talk of the character of the paintings of Monet's work shifting to bluer after a cataract was removed. Interesting stuff as is your channel. Thanks, Travelin2wit
nice. very clean instructions. love it. thanx
Hope Nile Red sees this video per his new Halloween '23 video on bulletproof wood. Saw his video just now and instantly remembered this video which has been on my mind off and on for years. :)
The trick of the product you mention seems to be in it being compressed.Bendable Wood is a cold-bendable compressed wood that enables the creation of dramatic and unique bentwood parts using thick, solid, quality hardwood lumber. This is a different process, where the wood is extremely compressed. There is another youtube video demonstrating the product and giving some saw instructions.
I wonder how this compares with steam bending?
so at this moment I have a piece of steamed poplar hard wood in a form
It is roughly 2" thick poplar, which will be curved to match the wall under a spiral staircase
It is 2" thick because it will be the door (little closet door) food under the staircase
I have to wait up to 7 days for it in the form
and even then, this is the 2nd time I've steamed it
steaming wood takes a long time
this ammonia method looks like a HUGE TIME SAVER!
Would be nice to see some side by side comparisons of the two processes.
Is the treated wood flexible enough to attempt to bend compound curves such as a bowl shape with this process?
Thanks Ben! I'd been told about this wood-bending process, but hadn't tried it out. Given the similarities to steam bending (minus the heat), how would this experiment have differed using off-the-shelf 30% ammonia solution under vacuum/pressure and/or heat? [I would guess that water would help relieve tension in the wood fibers and enhance penetration of the ammonia]
Thanks for doing this, glad I mentioned it so long ago.
First - use wood that has been spilt, to avoid grains not going all the way from end to end. And when bending, strap something all the way around the bent wood, so the grains that might start to crack loose, are held in place.
You used alot of woods that typically doesn't bend well at all. So this is a lot more impressive than most people probably think.
I would like to see it compared to traditional steam bending for those woods. Hard to say if there is a real advantage other than temperature.
Neat project. Thanks Ben.
In reference to 4:18 Doesn't heat up occur due to pressurization of the chamber. You drew it to a slight vacuum but adding the chemical using vacuum drag has the same effects as pressurizing a container which causes heat.
Years ago, there was an artist (Japanese, if I recall), who made some "sculptures" by bending logs into various shapes using some secret method. These were largish logs - like a foot in diameter or more and several feet long. Are you familiar with this artist, and do you think it was this technique that was used?
Thanks, this is an excellent video and an excellent reference!
The wood bending certainly is neat but the story about the container exchange was the surprise winner in the video. I'll bet that old timey gas mask got some use.
Glad you got the cylinder issues sorted! Lathe speed threading... that deserves to be a new sport ;)
..."then i threaded this aluminum cap faster than I've ever threaded anything in my life..." LOL
Even katara couldn't do that on a full moon.
Did you look around for either fire extinguisher bottles or small weld/cut/braze type portable torch bottles?
Thanks for the interesting video! I think you can use water instead of ammonia. Heat the wet wood and then bend them.
I'm curious how green hardwood would react compared with dried/cured. Also wondering about younger branches (as they have a higher water content). what about still-living saplings? There's artists who grow living chairs and such by training saplings into a shape, like functional lifesized bonsai; perhaps this could be implemented if the saplings are potted.
I liked this video. My employer uses anhydrous ammonia to keep the freezer and produce cold (warehouse). They make us sign all kinds of documents so we are aware that if there is an ammonia leak, its extremely lethal. The paintball canister was brilliant improvisation too.
You sir are a King among men
lignan vitae, African black wood.. would be neat to try in this. it was used for the same qualities you mentioned in the video.. used in the first high precision clocks, predecessor of the first practical naval time-pieces, to combat friction.
How did you get from "I have some dry ammonia" to "Let's try bending some wood with it" ? google patent search?
Zarouszz I did a wood-bending project a few years ago, and saw a forum posting wherein someone claimed that spraying Windex on the wood (very thin plywood) would help it bend as the piece was slowly pulled into shape. It seems that Windex may help slightly by simply wetting the wood, but the ammonia content is so much lower than the water content, the contribution of flexibility from the ammonia is almost nothing. I did more research and learned the professionals use ammonia to get the wood really flexible. I've had the idea in the back of my mind for a while.
Applied Science Is this possible because the ammonia denatures the protiens in the wood, making it more bendable? Im still a student but that would be my educated guess. I would like to know more about this process even though I wouldn't be crazy enough to produce the ammonia needed.
NotaPro He discusses his theory at 5:50
Applied Science Lignin is soluble in water in alkalic conditions. It might be, that the ammonia gas works its way into the wood via diffusion, dissolutes in water inside of your wood samples and dissolves part of the lignin.
Zarouszz You're one of them chicken came before the egg people...
anhydrous ammonia is used in heavy industry as a refrigerant.
vinegar with a little peroxide can dissolve alluminum, but the metal in that and even soda cans is usually treated and coated. Not sure how ammonia reacts to it though.
Interesting video, thanks!
I wanted to ask about the grain direction of the pieces of wood you bent successfully vs the soft wood (pine?). Wood that's steam bent tends to fail along the growth rings, and the soft wood looked to have failed in that way, or possibly the hardened pitch in the pine functioned as a vapor block. Did you happen to notice if the hardwood you bent well was parallel or perpendicular to the growth rings or if you managed both orientations well?
I think the plywood and particle board failed because the glue/resin used retards the absorption of moisture into the wood beyond the exposed edge of the piece, which is why they are such stable products; but it's interesting to note that ammonia gas will not soften resin/glue. Also with plywood, the board plies are laid in alternate grain direction, opposing directions every other layer, so it may have failed anyway.
I wonder how much of this is actually due to the chemical reaction. I make bentwood jewellery, and you can bend a veneer strip into a ring with only about 40 minutes soaking in boiling water, and I know that steam bending can be used on much heftier pieces (although I've never done it personally, so I can't give specifics). I imagine being heated all night long would produce some impressive bending, so it may just be the prolonged heat and moisture.
Dear god, dude. You're gonna get in some serious shit with all these high pressure things you do.
Stay safe buddy.
very cool. so jealous of your toys. would totally do this at home.
Many years ago, when I did a lot of machining, I learned that aluminum sometimes contains copper impurities in the form of tiny flecks of copper. I'd find those flecks while buffing a piece to a polish in once direction a bit too long. The copper flecks created a V shape in the metal since the copper is harder and the aluminum softer.
Now, years later, I've also learned that in early apothecaries, copper "verdigris" (used as a medicinal ingredient) was created in the lab by mixing honey and salt, smearing it on a sheet of copper, and suspending the doped copper over a shallow dish of ammonia for a prolonged period. Aside from really stinking up my kitchen, the technique does work, though slowly, so copper and ammonia do produce the blue-green fuzz known by that name.
Take those two thoughts and add them together, and I can imagine that the tiny flecks of copper in lower grade aluminum would indeed react with ammonia, producing microscopic deposits of copper sulfate crystals. Would that affect the effectiveness of your pressure vessel? Possibly.
Please excuse the roundabout way I get to my point. I'm a science enthusiast of many disciplines and all self-taught, so I don't always take the most direct route.
Nice - good use of common items although you seem to have the knowledge, like stainless steel etc., to do this stuff. Very good, I liked the anhydrous ammonia vid.
Crazy, very interesting!
there is also ammonia fuming of wood for bringing out the iridescence. its amazing
cool video... i wish you were my science teacher back when i was a kid.
How does this compare to steam-bending of wood? I know that process is often used by crafters and even shipwrights.
pauljs75 11 bending wood with ammonia for years. As far as I know it may go back to the 60 or earlier. However, I'm not sure how it was started.
Its shity and cunts uo yoyr nice wood, CHEERS. Use steam ,not amminia, steam needs to be maybe 2 psi, while this weirdo, jeeze. HAVE A GOOD NIGHT. I'm fead up.
@@garyhoney2013 Do you use regular ammonia? How do you use it to bend wood?
@@ryanb1874 dude, you just murdered the English language.
I think the bendable wood product you mention is made by compressing steamed wood lengthwise by about 20%, and as long as the wood is kept wet, it can be cold bent. The compression allows the outside of the curve to stretch. It is at puretimber.com. There are electron micrographs showing before and after compression!
im guessing your lathe has fancy transmition for gearing up for thread cutting or was it simply a die in the tailstock?
can you test the acoustical properties of the result bent wood so it may be used in instrument making? and can you design a DIY process that increases the acoustic attributes of a piece of wood? I am from Iran and I am an instrument maker
Could you do this with cloudy ammonia?
your "applied science" youtube name is so modest compared to what this channel is actually capable of
what happens if you do something like soak it in water after? will it return to original form? or does the cellulose reform to hold that shape?
I love your outro Ben. lol
Aluminum is ok to use with ammonia as our relief valves on our bulk tanks are made of it . But not shure what type of aluminum it is (ie what alloys are added )but it seems quite soft like pure aluminum as the threads are easy to gall .
Hey Ben, if I'd like to ask you some more detailed questions about your experiments plasticizing wood using anhydrous ammonia, what's the best way to do that? thanks!
Interesting. I took a tour of Great Lakes Banjo in Ann Arbor Michigan in the early 70's, and I believe they were bending their banjo rims with this method.
Aluminum is just fine for anhydrous ammonia. We use it all the time in refrigeration applications. I have several evaporator coils made completely out of aluminum.
What is with the dollar bill? Don't leave us hanging!
Auhydride SPOILER ALERT! It's gonna shrink, I think.
***** great scott D:
I wanna know about the dollar bill too!
Cristiano G. It's in the picture for size reference.
Auhydride It's in the picture for size reference.
Alluminum serves well, the metals that you should be aware of, are: Cobalt, Copper, Nickel, Cadmium, Silver, Zinc.
Alluminum is not capable of forming a complex salt with ammine ligand. However, if it is oxidised, it might (maybe) react with NH3OH - a weak alkali. But the Al(OH)3 is insoluble, so the reaction stops anyway
can ammonia able shrinking wood? and are they able tighthen wood thread?
question..what about making a storage vessel out of the sched. 80 steel pipe and fittings? maybe a 4" dia pipe nipple and pipe cap at one end and reducer at the other end down to the size of a valve?
you mentioned soaking wood in ammonia could we use ammonia could we use liquid ammonia to bend wood
Impressive!
+ Applied Science Can you try two pieces of laminated wood? Would they still stick together after being soaked in in the ammonia gas over night? Would the glue stay intact and flex as freely as the hardwood?
Very cool
Any guess for how much water made it into the distillate?
awesome story at the end! :)
Brilliant!
Pine contains a resin, which might be why it didn't soften as much as the other woods?
is this better than just water steam?
The blue powdery compound is likely hexamminecopper(II) complex, though how ammonia acts as oxidant I can't imagine. Try a flame test with a bit of the scrapings. A peacock blue flame would confirm the presence of copper.
Wasn't the heat (at about 4:00) comming from the pressure increase, when the amonium gas was released into the low pressurized pipe?
Off topic: Can you stimulate ONLY the red(or green or blue) cone cells in the eye with a DLP by simultaneous recording of the retina? How would the brain interpret a signal like this, when it is used to a huge overlap in the responsivity spectra?
I do not know if anyone is still monitoring this video but here goes.
Can this process be done with Bamboo at all or does it just disintegrate like some of those woods did?
Very interesting - thanks! 👌
One question remaining: what´s the behavier of the ammonized wood against e.g. acetic acid? Does it become flexible again at room temperature?
Cool stuff
very fun And cool
Amazing.
I'm not familiar measuring vacuum the way you did. Just curious how many hg/in the vacuum is? My pump usually sucks down to 28 hg/in. Would that be enough?
so it would be better to use a dry wood as dry as possible from the start?