No mention of the breath controller input on the EX, which was critical in making the most of VL realism, not to mention a very expressive way to shape volume and timbre via the filter. I have a Motif ES7, which I believe was Yamaha’s last series to include the breath controller input, with which I use a BC2 controller. That feature, along with that classic FS keyboard action, are why I’ll never get rid of my ES. I also have and enjoy a Montage 6 classic which I often layer with the ES to enjoy the extra polyphony and complementary sound libraries. This killer combo also lets me use the BC to shape Montage sounds.
Traded my 61 Montage and Peak for the M6. Happy with the integration and value proposition. Great all arounder with many years of future enjoyment. Lookihg forward to new Midi 2.0 capabilities as well. Thank you for your contributions to your viewers and investment you have made to your subscibers. Gratefully.
Thats a great comparison video! As much as I'd love to own a Montage M I also feel like I'll be absolutely overwhelmed by its sheer complexity and I know that I would never be using its entire potential. The EX5 would be the far better choice for me, except I'd love it to have the AWM engine of at least the Motif ES. On the other hand... Yamaha please release the AN engine as a separate synth. A successor to the AN1x.
I agree, a slightly more professional than the Reface CS version of an AN synth would be nice to have! The Montage takes a lot of the complexity away with that second screen. It's really easy to grasp, you can right away start creating sounds without reading the manual. But once you need the manual, you'll realize it's good that UA-cam exists. :-) :-/
Great video. I have few oldies from Yamaha the SY85, AN1x and the motif XS. I was comparing the new midi controller keybeds with my oldies and the difference is huge. The keybeds on the Yamaha oldies are so much betters which was a shock to me.
I can confirm. They built them differently back then, full metal enclosures mostly. Lightweight keyboards like the MODX have their advantages, though. For gigging musicians particularly.
I'm not going to sell my EX5. You are right, it can do some things no other synth can do, and distinctly so (read: you'll even hear that "in the mix").
Physical modeling fell by the wayside once memory cost fell enough to allow for detailed sampled/scripted sounds. One thing significant about the new Montage is the number of elements per patch increased to 128, allowing previously multi-part single sounds to be condensed into just one part/track/channel.
Yes, but it should be revived. Physical modeling really is "FM with recursive delay loops". I guess it's challenging to create a simple user interface for that, but 2 years ago, Reason studios pulled that off with their "Objekt" synth plugin. Yamaha had put quite some attention to detail into their implementation and it would be super interesting to fiddle around with the basic parameters. That was never possible on their "VL" synths.
@@mr_floydst I don't see where the "FM" is part of physical modeling or digital waveguide synthesis as it's also called, it's rather a noise source and a resonator (and yes the resonator is typically one or several IIR delay loop(s) with a filter)
I don't recall the details, but I did a video on Objekt synth 2 years or so ago - and yes, there are resonators, but they can be arranged as modulators to other resonators, thus achieving "wooden" or "bowed" or "brassy" sounds. This is not unlike the FM algorithms. It's not the same of course.
I am experiencing something similar now. My synths were Rhodes MK80, Roland JP8000 (released early 1997), and Alesis QS7.1 (released 1999). The MK80 bit the dust and needed replacement. I got a Yamaha CK61, and have integrated it with the JP and QS along with a Casio and some soft synths. Some high octave aliasing aside, the JP8000 holds up very well - both from a sound perspective and a hands-on perspective. It works well as a sound source and as a controller. The QS7.1’s sounds are kinda old; there are too many 90’s ambiance effects baked into them. But many remain usable, and the device as a controller remains excellent. Multi zone, aftertouch… yeah, I have no shame in having it as part of my rig.
Dear Floyd, indeed the M8X is a great successor to your EX5, congrats! Anyway, I think it would be cool to see you trying to replicate your favourite EX5 patches on the M8X, to showcase sonic differences. Yamaha states that they have vastly improved the sound engine and the DAC to improve resolution, noise floor and THD. Concretely in the lower frequencies is where they put more effort it seems. Regards,
I usually put that stuff on my Gumroad page floydsteinberg.gumroad.com/ I also have a Soundmondo page but that doesn't work with EX5. soundmondo.yamahasynth.com/user/650
Thanks - yes, that's a nice studio table. The M8X has 2 cm of leeway on the left and right sides ;-) According to the specs, the cheapest keyboard stands can't carry the M8X. If you buy a stand, it's a good idea to check for the maximum carrying capacity. The cheapest ones are designed for 25kg max weight, which isn't enough for the M8X.
@@mr_floydst I use a B&M Spyder stand for my M8x and it carries the Montage, a Kronos, a Quantum and a Hydrasynth module with no strain at all. I highly recommend these.
I still use the Yamaha S80 from 1999. Built like a tank. Same AWM2 engine as the EX-5, but no sampling. Much smaller 40x2 display. And with 2 hardware expansion slots for cards that add more synth engines. Still sounds good though!
Yes, digital synths from the end of the 90s where matured technology, they are really useful (and usually not too expensive to pick up) both as synths and as keyboards. But then, VST come along. ;-)
Nice vid, thought I feel it's a little bit of a shallow skim in places - FDSP needs a whole hour long deep dive to show it's potential, it's probably still the most interesting thing Yamaha has ever done :)
You're right, but I mentioned that in the video's description :-) In my defense, I talked about FDSP on my channel in-depth a few times. But those videos might look a bit cringe-worthy by now :-S - perhaps I should re-do them.
Great video as always Floyd. The PLG cards in my MOTIF makes it hard for me to move on to the the Montage. I'd love to know where you got your stand for your Montage. That under desk storage idea looks really cool!
Thanks for watching and correctly identifying my attempts at playing them. Both Bungie and Microsoft seemed to be infallible at the time. Until the "TV TV TV" thing happened. Oh man. I hope they manage to turn the ship around and make Halo great again ;-)
We've come a long way since 1998! Love the EX5 and its features, but the Montage is just epic. Still secretly hoping one day Yamaha brushes up on the VL engine, make it polyphonic and put it in the Montage... Who knows!
This synthesizer will be updated to midi 2.0 , meaning it will be way more powerful in the future. So I think it will outlast the previous synthesizer making it one of the best investments in synthesizer world. Midi 2.0 means intelligent handshake, If I am not mistaken the new Montage X has 32 bit audio conversion. Remote control, wireless midi 2.0 (not a fan because of radiation), interaction between keyboards and DAW. The new Montage keyboards are highly integrated with Steinberg's (Yamaha owned) Cubase.
Thanks for watching! Sure thing, it's this desk: thmn.to/thoprod/548226?offid=1&affid=330 I'm very happy with it, this totally uncluttered my space. The desk has 3 19" racks and I filled one of them with a Behringer rack mixer and a Behringer patch bay. I'm using an R20 recorder instead of a DAW, but there's also a mini PC on that pedal board if a DAW is needed (also useful for firmware updates, capturing video output, and so on). I think I'll make a video on that as you're not the first to ask. Thanks for your input!
What a wonderful video comparing the two. Even though I have never played a Montage M, I do have some opinions. Its appalling that Yamaha had a physical modelling engine 30 years ago, but doesn't provide that in the Montage M. That is very very strange to me.
Right! Isn't it? I was downright saddened to hear that Aodyo went out of business. Their "Omega" would have been a proper polyphonic "VL" synth. I was lucky enough to play it on Superbooth '23. It's never going to happen now. :-(
Modern user manuals are a sad state of affairs. 25 years ago, if a product had a bad manual, then their support would be flooded with inquiries as there wasn’t an internet community that probably has the answers like we do today. I wish the situation was better, but developing quality documentation is an oddly time consuming exercise that they can get away with. Great video, by the way. I suspect more care and effort went into this than most modern user manuals 😀
Yes, this is a good observation. The companies are outsourcing documentation to the community, and others are paying for that (for example, UA-cam advertisers).
Floyd, I am still using my EX5 underneath my Prophet 12 which is under my Take5 which is near my Integra, which I control all with my Force and Live2. I have been feeling the need for a move like yours, and was considering the Kurzweil K2700, until I saw this and another video on the Montage. Did you try the Kurzweil? I am not near one. Just wondered if you compared pianos? Thanks for your dedication and help with the EX5.😶🌫😎
I did some research before buying this keyboard, and the K2700 sounds gorgeous. But the 88 weighted wooden keys with poly aftertouch made me buy the M8X. It's a childhood dream coming true for me. ;-) I'm pretty sure the Kurzweil is an excellent keyboard synth as well.
@@mr_floydst I have a K2700 and the Montage M8x. Nothing else sounds like a Kurzweil, and the orchestral sounds and piano sounds are great. The interface is Ok, but the lack of a touchscreen is unfortunate. It has a rather light Fatar keybed, which is a good compromise for both organ and piano, but nowhere near as realistic for piano as a Yamaha or Roland keybed. I love it for what it does, but if I had to sell the Montage or Kurzweil, I'd probably sell the Kurzweil first.
There’s been few times where the stars aligned in my favor and the choice(s) I made worked out for the better. The EX5 was the last hardware synth workstation I had purchased until last year when I sprung for the Montage M8x. IMHO, both excellent keyboards and while the EX5 is elderly it makes for an interesting companion to the M8x. One key element with my EX5 is that it is in excellent condition. Kept in a non smoking studio. Of course there have been your typical malcontents needing to criticize every aspect of the M8x. It’s not perfect, but is a very capable machine which can span an incredible amount of sonic territory.
That's exactly what I think. EX5 is worth having around for its unique FDSP sounds (you can clearly hear those in any given mix and they actually make a difference to expressing your artistic intention). I think Montage M is a highly desirable synth but it's also super expensive, which upsets people. You could buy a MODX but then you're missing out on the AN-X synth.
@ Yes, it is expensive. I don’t know how to exactly judge the price since just about everything has doubled in price in the past 4 years. I’m 59 and buying the M8x was a big financial decision and my hope is for it to be something to last a long time.
I think that the Montage M8X is awesome but the price is very hard to swallow, I've looked into the EX5 and it not too bad a price at around £650 second hand and worth that money, I might buy one of those. When I become a millionaire like you must be ;-) the Mantage would be on my radar
You are right. One has to think twice, twice, before placing an order. It's still not as expensive as a new upright piano, though. Or that electric guitar your bandmate is lusting after despite owning 16 other guitars in the same price bracket already. ;-)
Congrats on your new Shiny Montage M8X. I have the older Montage 6 (neither which have your fancy multi-aftertouch, or piano feel, or the extra display OR the AM engine), but other than that pretty much the same. You also have a killer-combo like the MPC, which used to be a dream with the Montage, until some software update in MPC kinda broke that, and the Montage will forever have "sustain-hang" in "multi mode (you set multi mode under config in Montage), multi mode means multi-timbral mode with midi, but for some reason MPC now hangs the sustain, have you tested that?
Tolles Video!!! So gut die neuen Geräte auch sein mögen, es gibt ein zentrales Problem: die Anleitung. Man hat oft das Gefühl, mit dem Gerät einfach alleine gelassen zu werden. Die Anleitungen sind knapp, wenn sie überhaupt vorhanden sind, und meist ohne Liebe zum Detail geschrieben. Sie sind sachlich und emotionslos, ohne praktische Anwendungsbeispiele aus der echten Welt. Statt Inspiration zu bieten, beschränken sie sich auf die Beschreibung der einzelnen Elemente. Doch was man musikalisch wirklich damit anstellen kann, bleibt oft im Dunkeln. Gerade bei Geräten wie dem Montage zeigt sich ein Trend: Es werden immer mehr Funktionen eingebaut - von allem gibt es ein bisschen mehr. Dein Vergleich zwischen dem Yamaha EX5 und dem Montage ist treffend: Der Montage hat von allem eine gehörige Portion mehr. Aber die entscheidende Frage lautet: Klingt er tatsächlich besser? Und vor allem: Mit welchem Gerät lässt sich besser Musik machen? Ich persönlich habe hier einen EX5 und einen DX7 stehen. Ein Montage kommt mir nicht ins Haus. Warum? Zu viele Funktionen! Sicher, der Montage bietet mehr, aber hatte er auch mehr Musik in sich? Meiner Meinung nach: Nein! Warum ist das so? Warum kann ich mit dem DX7 genauso gut Musik machen wie mit dem EX5, obwohl dazwischen 15 Jahre Entwicklung liegen? Der EX5 ist mit drei zusätzlichen Sound-Engines ausgestattet und klanglich völlig anders als ein DX7. Man hört den Unterschied deutlich. Doch beim Montage, fast 30 Jahre nach dem DX7 - oder 25 nach dem EX5 - stellt sich die Frage: Klingt er hörbar anders? Meiner Meinung nach nicht. Stattdessen bringt er vor allem eines: technischen Firlefanz, der vom Wesentlichen ablenkt. Die vielen Funktionen halten einen mehr davon ab, Musik zu machen, als dass sie dabei helfen. Am Ende des Tages ist die Zeit abgelaufen, und die Musik bleibt auf der Strecke. Für mich ist der Montage eine unnötige High-End-Kiste, die ich nicht zum Musikmachen brauche. Vielleicht ist er gut, um herumzuspielen oder technische Spielereien auszuprobieren, aber für mich bedeutet Musikmachen, etwas Hörbares zu erschaffen - und das schaffe ich auch ohne überbordende Technik. Außerdem klingt der Montage für mich wie ein typisches VST-Plugin: Alles wird programmiert und in Echtzeit berechnet. Natürlich sorgt ein flotter Prozessor dafür, dass es fantastisch klingt. Aber mit meiner alten Technik - ehrlich gesagt - komme ich klanglich besser zurecht. Die Sounds meiner Geräte klingen einzigartiger und individueller. Was die analoge Klangerzeugung betrifft, bin ich ebenfalls überzeugt: Analog bleibt immer analog - und analog klingt authentischer als digital. Selbst wenn digitale Geräte versuchen, analog zu klingen, wirken sie oft zu „sweet“ und glatt. Das gilt auch für den Montage.
Hi, danke für dein Feedback! Ich schreibe den Rest mal auf englisch, weil die meisten Zuschauer hier aus dem englischsprachigen Raum kommen. Yeah I mentioned the problem with the manual in the end of the video. That online manual and the 60 page pamphlet isn't worthy of a high end instrument. My reason for choosing the Montage was that fantastic keyboard. Having a very capable synth attached to it is a nice bonus. :-) I should have made it clearer that I'm not _replacing_ the EX5 with the Montage. That'd be foolish. All in all, the M8X is a great instrument. I'd argue the EX5 has even more functions, learning what all its FDSP algorithms can do will take years alone, and then there's a much more fleshed-out sequencer in that machine. The Montage is quite straight forward in its synth UI - the left side is used for creating sounds. If you listen to that Poly AT patch I demo in this video, I think that sounds gorgeous and very distinct, it's a typical Yamaha sound. But yeah, that's only my point of view. I can totally see why one would not agree.
Thank you, Floyd! A wonderful and very informative comparison. Could you please reveal which preset you used at the end (from 20:55)? Or does someone else know it? That would be nice. A beautiful sound.
@@mr_floydst Thanks a lot! So I wasn't too far from that. Please keep on with your videos. I started playing the keyboard just one year ago - at the age of 68 - and bought myself a Montage M8x as my first keyboard / synthesizer. Both decisions were the best of my life :-) Greetings from Freiburg, Germany
Thanks for watching - yesn't. ;-) Montage can't use samples as operators. You can't create your own algorithms (though I highly doubt anyone ever used that feature). Those are still rare thing sthe SY99 does. Anything else is "more" on the Montage. Better and more effects, better sounding and more filters, EQ and mastering effects, and so on.
@ Thank you so much Floy for your message, I will keep my SY99 for now :) , have you ever compared the montage to the Modx6+ ? I wonder how close they sound ? Cheers from Atlanta my friend !
@@mr_floydst I think SY77/99's FM is the best. Mainly because of the envelop looping (Segment Loop Points), which no one else can do. Anyway, cool comparison, I have both instruments, but the EX5 has a much more characterful sound in my opinion. As soon as it sounds, I recognize it immediately, and the Montage can be anything: sometimes I get confused whether it's my phone ringing or I hear the Montage's sound.
Great paring. Best aspect of the Montage, besides having a modern soundlibrary/AWM2 has to be its implantation of performances. The new keybed with poly after-touch is probably the most grandiose that I have seen for a synth of this type, build quality is great and tank-like, like with the previous model of Montage, FM-X is also probably my favorite FM synth engine just slightly after the FS1R. It would most likely not replace my EX5 as my main board however, as the EX5 to me is a sound station that is utterly irreplaceable due to the instantaneous nature of FDSP and the unparalleled expressive capabilities of VL synthesis and if they added it, i do still love the late 90's sound Character and overall aesthetic qualities of the EX5, it always felt very special to me, for some reason, also from a historical point of view as a summary of all the yamaha synthesis innovations of the era. I am very glad they added analogue modeling in the new M, which is something i have realized that i cant live without it as a synth soloist, even with AWM2 in my current Montage 6 is not enough to me, hence why i may buy a Montage M in the future, hard to go wrong with these as gigging/live instrument, instead of say A nord Stage, which i have little interest in as a sound designer. Great synths either way, I do think this is what the original Montage should have been on its release. I hope you are enjoying your Montage M88, congrats! looking forward to see what future O.S updates may bring, and future videos by you covering this synth, good purchase. Cheers!
Heeey Snupps ;-) Don't worry, my EX5 isn't going anywhere. That FDSP engine can't be replaced, until someone at Yamaha decides to! But apart from that, this is my new center piece, together with MPC One it's really everything one could ask for.
I have an FS1r, but I was disappointed by it. The user interface is just too awful to program it effectively and the preset sounds are somewhat disappointing. The FM-X engine in the Montage is far more useful for real work. I even prefer the FM engine in the SY series, which is under-rated today.
I think the EX5 / EX7 indeed where the first synths which had the scene morphing / macro. (I couldn't find anything earlier, the CS6X had it, but that one was from 1999)
Looking at the picture, it was more about how great the synth released in '96 was. Other way, the new Yamaha is a great synthesizer. For me, the VGA resolution TFT main screen is a bit of a 2000s-style technical solution. It couldn't have been easy to find such old-fashioned display panels when even the cheapest mobile device gives a multi-resolution picture. A top-of-the-range oled screen would be better suited.
I agree, the EX5 was way ahead of its time (and people only discovered years later how great it really was), the Montage is strictly a product of our time, trailing behind in the screen department. ;-) Despite that, at least the M8X is a future classic in my opinion. It definitely has that typical Yamaha sound (warm, powerful basses) and one of the best keyboards I've played on synthesizers.
It's this desk: thmn.to/thoprod/548226?offid=1&affid=330 You're not the first to ask - I think we have a new video topic here ;-) Thanks for your input.
May I redirect you to Kier Darby's channel? He did a superb video series on exactly this topic that leaves no questions unanswered. ua-cam.com/video/sVg8HZRsXAc/v-deo.html I chose Montage because I know I like Yamaha's warm, bassy tones. Also, I bought a Fantom X6 back in 2003 and it killed my desire to make music for almost 15 years, haha. So I naturally gravitate to Yamaha.
They're both great. I actually prefer the keybed on the Fantom 8, which is much heavier than the Yamaha, which I like in a piano. However, the aftertouch on the Fantom is useless. The acoustic sounds are much better on the Yamaha, and the Fantom can have polyphony issues (apart from the V-Piano, which is unlimited). I also like the virtual ACB instruments on the Roland, especially the JD-800. The biggest strength of the Fantom is the front panel, which makes it a great control center for a complex MIDI setup. They both sound great (as does the Kurzweil K2700), so it's worth trying all three.
@11.55 right next to the screen, minor detail the EX5 has a lcd contrast knob, i wish the montage m had one, for the left quick edit lcd display, as the screen tend to be very bright when sitting behind the keyboard...standing upright not so much, the angle here matters. could be avoided with a simple contrast knob.
Yes, I made the patches for that plugin! ;-) It's a great plugin but it doesn't emulate FDSP. It's sample-based, very similar to AWM2, with some superb sounding effects.
@@mr_floydst I’ve got an EX5 bought from brand new and still in factory condition, it’s one classy keyboard, still has quality written all over it. Would love a montage but I wouldn’t part with the EX5. Got a Korg Z1 too, it’s another great keyboard from back in the day.
I see that R20 is still sitting on your desk: are you still enjoying that despite the limitations? It's still the only multitracker with those features and a streamlined interface. Wonder if the SD card writing and loading is as annoyingly slow as some videos claim?
Yes, I use that thing everyday, and yes, it is annoyingly slow on some occasions. For example, if you record a punch-in from A to B - the R20 will merge your recording with the recording that was there previously instead of keeping both originals, which is, depending on your SD card, a super slow process. But even with that, it's way more convenient to just arm 4 tracks for my UA-cam video capture and press record. Using a DAW for that takes considerably longer to set up and is more error-prone. I've had instances of talking and doing 30 minutes straight and then realizing I was using the computer's internal microphone. Stuff like that does not happen on the R20 by design.
@@mr_floydst makes perfect sense, thanks for the detailed replies and excellent videos. Yeah, I hope Zoom beefs up the R20 with more processing power and features some day. The interface is super slick and there's nothing like it.
Same with the EX5. Heck, I have one sitting no more than 6 feet away from me , sitting next to a Kurzweil K2600 , PC3K7 and a Roland Fantom X-7 and a EX5 rack in storage. I'll NEVER get rid of the EX-5's for a montage.
@@ChurchBoy0487 true - i forgot it has that VL engine in there which is so sought after honestly im not a fan of how quickly we got to "they dont make em like they used to" in the synthesizer world
I sort of regret not keeping the ex5r but it got twitchy when maxing out multitimbral performances, let alone the dsp ceiling, but it was fine if you treated it gently / did not ask too much at once.
I'm not throwing out my EX5. :-) But as I showed in the video, a lot of EX5 DNA can be found in the Montage, and it comes with all of its waves so one could rebuild the EX5 patches (minus VL minus FDSP)
Yes, ... I should have made it more clear I'm not replacing it with the Montage. :-) Until someone at Yamaha decides to re-release FDSP and VL, that is. But that won't happen.
@ You can find hundreds of sounds on the internet that were made by me for the EX5 in the beginning when this synth came out. Just google marcE and you'll find them in no time
I have an EX5 (actually, an EX5r rack-mount version) and a Montage M8x. So I can compare them directly. I wish that I could get all of the sounds on the EX5 from the Montage. But the DSP sounds and the physical modeling sounds on the EX5 are still not available on the Montage After the EX5, Yamaha had a series of rather boring Motif workstations, which were AWM samples only, and abandoned the technological innovations of the EX5. Then, the original Montage basically rolled back to the SY series, which had AWM samples and an FM engine. Now we have FM, AWM and virtual analog. But we are still missing the physical modeling engines, breath control and DSP sounds of the EX. Of course, the samples on the Montage are superb, the keyboard is great and FM and virtual analog engines are very powerful. The polyphony and overall sound quality is much better. But the EX was still a high-water mark in Yamaha innovation, that hasn't yet been exceeded. I'll be keepng both and using them for different things.
I should have made it more clear that I'm not giving away my EX5 ;-) For the reasons you mentioned. Bought this synth for it's superb keybed mainly, and it's much, much better internal samples. Still waiting for a 2020s version of a VL hardware synth. I'm saddened Aodyo went out of business, their "Omega" shaped up to be exactly that.
I have a classic Montage and an SY77. I understand that adjusting for inflation the SY77 cost more than the Montage 6. The build quality of both is amazing. You are right about the manuals. This is now a lost art. BTW the original Montage has a much better manual than the M. You might be able to get some useful info out of it as many of the procedures are very similar. Yamaha has abandoned the idea of 'real' sequencers, hence they no longer write 'workstation' on the Montage. But this is somewhat understandable. Why bother working on a small screen when you can do it on a DAW (and in all fairness, they do give a Cubase AI license for free with it, it is somewhat limited but stil way more powerful than they could cram on the keyboard). The SY77 seems to have been the initial batch of AWM samples, and while Yamaha emphasized on 'realistic' sounds, many of them are laughable by todays standards. Grand piano sounds like a toy. However the FM engine can also be combined with AWM in SY77 voices and this instrument can still produce amazing sounds 35 years later. It is also build to last, well, forever. In conclusion, I am really glad to have both here!
You're right. But still. ;-) A step sequencer like in the EX5 would be a nice thing to have for quickly adding a drum part or simple arpeggio. They went the extra mile and brought the sequencer back, so here's hoping. I had an SY99 on this channel a year ago and I felt right at home with it. Some of the ideas in there were really forward-thinking (using samples in FM, for example).
So do I. That keyboard is not going away (and I'm still working on finishing my patch set ;-). I always dreamt of owning a synth with a wooden weighted keyboard, though, and this is it.
@@mr_floydst I have EX5, Motif ES. Korg Kronos 2 and FS1R. I got Motif ES since I never used EX5 as a workstation, thought that workstation implementation was bad on it. Upgraded to Kronos 2 to have access to synth engines, updated computer integration. To be honest, I will unlikely to buy any new workstation in the future. I just feel in the box capabilities are simply superior to anything workstation can deliver, especially if you do not gig. Previously, workstations were intuitive, stable and fast way to compose when compared to DAWs but I do not think it is the case for at least last 10 years. I always felt that Motif line was a step backwards in sonic capabilities when compared to EX5, however insufficient DSP made EX5 an "ahead of its time product" . Montage to me also sonically is underwhelming especially considering the time that past since EX5 introduction.
I considered the Kronos 2 as well, it was my go-to "super expensive" synth for a long time (and it looks very nice indeed). I had the Montage for a month now and there are some amazing sounds you can get out of it. My short poly at demo in this video hints at it. I think that's a typical Yamaha sound, very CS80 indeed.
@@mr_floydst Agree. Listening to you demo , CS80 Vangelis-style sound aided by the polyphonic aftertouch, was the moment where I was thinking - I wish my keyboard had that.
Thanks! - I can totally understand that, and this video is not meant as a sales pitch. I like the communication part of UA-cam videos, though :-) I felt really, really bad for spending this amount of money which otherwise could have been a very nice vacation with my family.
Thanks! I would put it another way, it's time for a ROMpler redemption arc. ;-) And I think the idea of a sample based synth could be explored more thoroughly (with techniques like granular synthesis, frequency modulation, and so on)
I'm in no way a good piano player, and deciding "high end synth or a very nice vacation with my family" made me feel all kinds of negative thoughts about myself and my life choices ;-) But oh well, here I am, and I'm not unhappy with this purchase.
@@159awi I know it exists (for example, in my Novation Peak) but I rarely use it. I can't say why, but most of my musical output is kind of "no surprises here" anyway ;-) so I mostly work with analogue-ish sounds. I'd love to see a new hardware modeling synth, though. I loved the "Objekt" plugin, but having physical controls and no licensing checks when starting would be even better. That field of synthesis is definitely under-explored.
The manual situation is a real drag. There’s so many functions, so much information and it’s not very well organized. A single manual, logically structured would be much better. I find myself turning to UA-cam videos for help whenever I need to learn or recall how to do stuff on the MODX.
@@mr_floydst Yes, and it's not just Yamaha. I have the same problem with the MPC and it's even worse because the UI changes a lot with firmware updates. In 10-20 years when those videos are harder to find, if they're still online at all, it's gonna be a headache to make sense of it all.
I have a motif es7... i would love to have a ex5.. sad how yamaha took a step back from the ex5 to relaunch it stripped down as the motif range.. i would love to have all the synth engines of the ex5 but i cant get the expansion boards in my country.. strange how things work. Congrats on having both excellent machines!!
I once talked to a Yamaha representative and he said that most customers were totally overwhelmed by the sheer amount of synthesis in the EX5, which lead to the more modular layout of the Motif series. (They eventually even dropped that, but it seems with the rekindled interest in sound creation by hobbyists all over the world, we're slowly getting back what was lost) ;-)
Please please some company make a workstation that's not so tweaky with a Web-based library of sounds so you can just choose and download what you need. Kind of like Clavia but way cheaper and simpler.
In their defense, they have Soundmondo, which is a web-based database of sounds, and getting them onto your synth is possible in realtime as long as it's plugged in. The keyboard closest to what you're describing here seems to be the Astrolab by Arturia (I never had one myself, though, so take that with a grain of salt)
@@mr_floydst True about the Astrolab but I want hammer action keys, which I'm guessing the M8X has. Also, that "special look" of the Astrolab didn't work too well on me lol
You are right! (I'm not going to retire it either, I've just moved it to another corner of my room). I hope someone remembers FDSP, that was a great concept.
"there comes a day in you life, that you need a great sounding piano".. well.. maybe.. but then sample libraries beat this thing out of the water with ease! 🙂
That's true (for me, Pianoteq is the go-to plugin for that). I'm going to commit heresy here by stating that a DAW can substitute any keyboard synthesizer sound anyway, so the reason for buying a keyboard always is something else than sound; nostalgia, the immediacy of it all, the nice look of that classic analog poly in your studio and its cosy hum, or, in this case, that superb wooden keyboard action and hands-on user interface.
@@mr_floydst I haven't really played with FDSP much. The uneditable VL "element"s can be edited with VL-Wizard, but not all the tweaks for response to Breath and so on that can be adjusted through the EX5 menu (EX5r, in my case). VL-Wizard can do both parts for the VL70m, but only the "element" is the same.
The title should read "What 3 decades of doing the bare minimum and still get suckers to by this underpowered and overpriced sh*t looks like". A Montage M8X should cost 2500€ max!!!
wowowow, haha. I understand we're all passionate about synths and stuff, but for the love of god, there's no need to call me words. In my opinion, the whole package (weighted keybed with poly AT plus mechanical UI plus synth) is an o.k. value for the price. you can't buy a real piano for that price, for example. Thanks for reassuring my assumptions about country of origin and perceived angryness on the internet. :-) (That was a joke) ;-)
@@mr_floydst I did not refer to you as a sucker, I ment it that the companies think about us like this, I would love to buy a Montage, but not for that price. But honestly you are offended because you thought that I called you a sucker and yet you come out of the woodworks with a stereotype insult because I am German, a little hypocritical don't you think? Best regards.
Please please please choose a different AI voice.
Plot twist:
🤣
What? This is Floyd’s real voice lol
Don't be mean 😅
wtf
fascinating comparison, great work on the vid!
Thanks, Woody!
No mention of the breath controller input on the EX, which was critical in making the most of VL realism, not to mention a very expressive way to shape volume and timbre via the filter. I have a Motif ES7, which I believe was Yamaha’s last series to include the breath controller input, with which I use a BC2 controller. That feature, along with that classic FS keyboard action, are why I’ll never get rid of my ES. I also have and enjoy a Montage 6 classic which I often layer with the ES to enjoy the extra polyphony and complementary sound libraries. This killer combo also lets me use the BC to shape Montage sounds.
Thanks for pointing it out! You're right, an oversight on my behalf. :-) Nowadays, you'd use USB for that.
Congratulations on the upgrade. 🥳
Thanks, Fernando! That keyboard is so nice to play.
Traded my 61 Montage and Peak for the M6. Happy with the integration and value proposition. Great all arounder with many years of future enjoyment. Lookihg forward to new Midi 2.0 capabilities as well. Thank you for your contributions to your viewers and investment you have made to your subscibers. Gratefully.
Thanks for watching!
Thats a great comparison video!
As much as I'd love to own a Montage M I also feel like I'll be absolutely overwhelmed by its sheer complexity and I know that I would never be using its entire potential. The EX5 would be the far better choice for me, except I'd love it to have the AWM engine of at least the Motif ES.
On the other hand... Yamaha please release the AN engine as a separate synth. A successor to the AN1x.
I concur with the AN1x successor! BTW your sets for the An1x are legendary (and not only). Have u gotten any new synths lately?
I agree, a slightly more professional than the Reface CS version of an AN synth would be nice to have!
The Montage takes a lot of the complexity away with that second screen. It's really easy to grasp, you can right away start creating sounds without reading the manual.
But once you need the manual, you'll realize it's good that UA-cam exists. :-) :-/
Great video. I have few oldies from Yamaha the SY85, AN1x and the motif XS. I was comparing the new midi controller keybeds with my oldies and the difference is huge. The keybeds on the Yamaha oldies are so much betters which was a shock to me.
I can confirm. They built them differently back then, full metal enclosures mostly. Lightweight keyboards like the MODX have their advantages, though. For gigging musicians particularly.
@@mr_floydst Well, when I remember how many Hammond B3's destroyed Jon Lord performing live, compare to that our Yamaha's are lightweight 😀
I waiting this kind of comparation video for montage m series, great video floyd
Thanks for watching!
Still love my EX5R. Sounds like nothing else in my collection, and that arpeggiator!
I'm not going to sell my EX5. You are right, it can do some things no other synth can do, and distinctly so (read: you'll even hear that "in the mix").
Physical modeling fell by the wayside once memory cost fell enough to allow for detailed sampled/scripted sounds. One thing significant about the new Montage is the number of elements per patch increased to 128, allowing previously multi-part single sounds to be condensed into just one part/track/channel.
Yes, but it should be revived. Physical modeling really is "FM with recursive delay loops". I guess it's challenging to create a simple user interface for that, but 2 years ago, Reason studios pulled that off with their "Objekt" synth plugin. Yamaha had put quite some attention to detail into their implementation and it would be super interesting to fiddle around with the basic parameters. That was never possible on their "VL" synths.
@@mr_floydst I don't see where the "FM" is part of physical modeling or digital waveguide synthesis as it's also called, it's rather a noise source and a resonator (and yes the resonator is typically one or several IIR delay loop(s) with a filter)
I don't recall the details, but I did a video on Objekt synth 2 years or so ago - and yes, there are resonators, but they can be arranged as modulators to other resonators, thus achieving "wooden" or "bowed" or "brassy" sounds. This is not unlike the FM algorithms. It's not the same of course.
I am experiencing something similar now. My synths were Rhodes MK80, Roland JP8000 (released early 1997), and Alesis QS7.1 (released 1999). The MK80 bit the dust and needed replacement. I got a Yamaha CK61, and have integrated it with the JP and QS along with a Casio and some soft synths. Some high octave aliasing aside, the JP8000 holds up very well - both from a sound perspective and a hands-on perspective. It works well as a sound source and as a controller.
The QS7.1’s sounds are kinda old; there are too many 90’s ambiance effects baked into them. But many remain usable, and the device as a controller remains excellent. Multi zone, aftertouch… yeah, I have no shame in having it as part of my rig.
Those end-of-90s synths are something special. They tech and concepts had matured by then, just before VST steamrolled all of that ;-)
Dear Floyd, indeed the M8X is a great successor to your EX5, congrats!
Anyway, I think it would be cool to see you trying to replicate your favourite EX5 patches on the M8X, to showcase sonic differences.
Yamaha states that they have vastly improved the sound engine and the DAC to improve resolution, noise floor and THD. Concretely in the lower frequencies is where they put more effort it seems.
Regards,
Thanks for your input - that was one of my video ideas indeed!
@ Excellent!! I’ll be waiting. Thanks again.
Hey floyd. I was waiting for this one. Glad the ex still gets some love.
Thanks for watching! The EX5 is going nowhere - that FDSP sound engine can't be replaced (also, I'm still working on my patch set ;-)
@mr_floydst yup. Keep me posted when u drop those😃 Ps. Output platform!?
I usually put that stuff on my Gumroad page floydsteinberg.gumroad.com/
I also have a Soundmondo page but that doesn't work with EX5. soundmondo.yamahasynth.com/user/650
That's a lovely desk setup you've got there. I'd imagine a standard keyboard tray wouldn't carry the weight of the M8X.
Thanks - yes, that's a nice studio table. The M8X has 2 cm of leeway on the left and right sides ;-)
According to the specs, the cheapest keyboard stands can't carry the M8X. If you buy a stand, it's a good idea to check for the maximum carrying capacity. The cheapest ones are designed for 25kg max weight, which isn't enough for the M8X.
Who makes your desk if you do not mind sharing?
It's this one: thmn.to/thoprod/548226?offid=1&affid=330
@@mr_floydst Thank you!
@@mr_floydst I use a B&M Spyder stand for my M8x and it carries the Montage, a Kronos, a Quantum and a Hydrasynth module with no strain at all. I highly recommend these.
I still use the Yamaha S80 from 1999. Built like a tank. Same AWM2 engine as the EX-5, but no sampling. Much smaller 40x2 display. And with 2 hardware expansion slots for cards that add more synth engines. Still sounds good though!
Yes, digital synths from the end of the 90s where matured technology, they are really useful (and usually not too expensive to pick up) both as synths and as keyboards. But then, VST come along. ;-)
that CFX piano is brilliant
I agree! It's expressive and crystal clear and sounds "real enough".
I love the M8x for what it is but I think the Motif XF is still my go to piece especially for the sequencer’s ability to create
I never used a M-XF. I use MPC One for sequencing, Montage's sequencer is good for recording "advanced musical sketches".
Nice vid, thought I feel it's a little bit of a shallow skim in places - FDSP needs a whole hour long deep dive to show it's potential, it's probably still the most interesting thing Yamaha has ever done :)
You're right, but I mentioned that in the video's description :-) In my defense, I talked about FDSP on my channel in-depth a few times. But those videos might look a bit cringe-worthy by now :-S - perhaps I should re-do them.
Well, I really like that. Set up. You got there nice video too.😊
Thanks! :-)
Congrat for your new acquisition 🙂! Too bad there is no editor like for Motif XS...., I hope you will demonstrate how to do sound design with it soon.
You do get the VST version of Montage, though, so you can create patches on your computer and even listen to them instantly.
@@mr_floydst damn, I was not aware of this "Expanded Softsynth Plugin" thing, sounds promising !
Great video as always Floyd. The PLG cards in my MOTIF makes it hard for me to move on to the the Montage. I'd love to know where you got your stand for your Montage. That under desk storage idea looks really cool!
Thanks! Those PLG cards certainly were great.
The desk is from Thomann: thmn.to/thoprod/548226?offid=1&affid=330
1:14 I came here just to say thank you for playing ODST.
That was such a great game. Is it 17 years ago already? Oh man.
Loved hearing different pieces of Halo music thoughtfully blended in
Thanks for watching and correctly identifying my attempts at playing them. Both Bungie and Microsoft seemed to be infallible at the time. Until the "TV TV TV" thing happened. Oh man. I hope they manage to turn the ship around and make Halo great again ;-)
We've come a long way since 1998!
Love the EX5 and its features, but the Montage is just epic.
Still secretly hoping one day Yamaha brushes up on the VL engine, make it polyphonic and put it in the Montage... Who knows!
This definitely needs to happen. With full access to the "algorithms" in which those VL feedback loops are arranged.
This synthesizer will be updated to midi 2.0 , meaning it will be way more powerful in the future. So I think it will outlast the previous synthesizer making it one of the best investments in synthesizer world. Midi 2.0 means intelligent handshake, If I am not mistaken the new Montage X has 32 bit audio conversion. Remote control, wireless midi 2.0 (not a fan because of radiation), interaction between keyboards and DAW. The new Montage keyboards are highly integrated with Steinberg's (Yamaha owned) Cubase.
I love your desk setup Floyd; can you share some details?
Thanks for watching! Sure thing, it's this desk: thmn.to/thoprod/548226?offid=1&affid=330
I'm very happy with it, this totally uncluttered my space. The desk has 3 19" racks and I filled one of them with a Behringer rack mixer and a Behringer patch bay. I'm using an R20 recorder instead of a DAW, but there's also a mini PC on that pedal board if a DAW is needed (also useful for firmware updates, capturing video output, and so on).
I think I'll make a video on that as you're not the first to ask. Thanks for your input!
What a wonderful video comparing the two. Even though I have never played a Montage M, I do have some opinions. Its appalling that Yamaha had a physical modelling engine 30 years ago, but doesn't provide that in the Montage M. That is very very strange to me.
Right! Isn't it? I was downright saddened to hear that Aodyo went out of business. Their "Omega" would have been a proper polyphonic "VL" synth. I was lucky enough to play it on Superbooth '23. It's never going to happen now. :-(
Modern user manuals are a sad state of affairs. 25 years ago, if a product had a bad manual, then their support would be flooded with inquiries as there wasn’t an internet community that probably has the answers like we do today. I wish the situation was better, but developing quality documentation is an oddly time consuming exercise that they can get away with.
Great video, by the way. I suspect more care and effort went into this than most modern user manuals 😀
Yes, this is a good observation. The companies are outsourcing documentation to the community, and others are paying for that (for example, UA-cam advertisers).
@2:46 🥹😭 Halo Soundtrack. Title: Unforgotten. Beautiful.
Those were the days, my friend! ;-)
Floyd, I am still using my EX5 underneath my Prophet 12 which is under my Take5 which is near my Integra, which I control all with my Force and Live2. I have been feeling the need for a move like yours, and was considering the Kurzweil K2700, until I saw this and another video on the Montage. Did you try the Kurzweil? I am not near one. Just wondered if you compared pianos? Thanks for your dedication and help with the EX5.😶🌫😎
I did some research before buying this keyboard, and the K2700 sounds gorgeous. But the 88 weighted wooden keys with poly aftertouch made me buy the M8X. It's a childhood dream coming true for me. ;-) I'm pretty sure the Kurzweil is an excellent keyboard synth as well.
@@mr_floydst I have a K2700 and the Montage M8x. Nothing else sounds like a Kurzweil, and the orchestral sounds and piano sounds are great. The interface is Ok, but the lack of a touchscreen is unfortunate. It has a rather light Fatar keybed, which is a good compromise for both organ and piano, but nowhere near as realistic for piano as a Yamaha or Roland keybed. I love it for what it does, but if I had to sell the Montage or Kurzweil, I'd probably sell the Kurzweil first.
There’s been few times where the stars aligned in my favor and the choice(s) I made worked out for the better. The EX5 was the last hardware synth workstation I had purchased until last year when I sprung for the Montage M8x. IMHO, both excellent keyboards and while the EX5 is elderly it makes for an interesting companion to the M8x. One key element with my EX5 is that it is in excellent condition. Kept in a non smoking studio.
Of course there have been your typical malcontents needing to criticize every aspect of the M8x. It’s not perfect, but is a very capable machine which can span an incredible amount of sonic territory.
That's exactly what I think. EX5 is worth having around for its unique FDSP sounds (you can clearly hear those in any given mix and they actually make a difference to expressing your artistic intention).
I think Montage M is a highly desirable synth but it's also super expensive, which upsets people. You could buy a MODX but then you're missing out on the AN-X synth.
@
Yes, it is expensive. I don’t know how to exactly judge the price since just about everything has doubled in price in the past 4 years. I’m 59 and buying the M8x was a big financial decision and my hope is for it to be something to last a long time.
I think that the Montage M8X is awesome but the price is very hard to swallow, I've looked into the EX5 and it not too bad a price at around £650 second hand and worth that money, I might buy one of those. When I become a millionaire like you must be ;-) the Mantage would be on my radar
You are right. One has to think twice, twice, before placing an order.
It's still not as expensive as a new upright piano, though. Or that electric guitar your bandmate is lusting after despite owning 16 other guitars in the same price bracket already. ;-)
Congrats on your new Shiny Montage M8X. I have the older Montage 6 (neither which have your fancy multi-aftertouch, or piano feel, or the extra display OR the AM engine), but other than that pretty much the same. You also have a killer-combo like the MPC, which used to be a dream with the Montage, until some software update in MPC kinda broke that, and the Montage will forever have "sustain-hang" in "multi mode (you set multi mode under config in Montage), multi mode means multi-timbral mode with midi, but for some reason MPC now hangs the sustain, have you tested that?
Hi! I recorded a complete track using both synths and I didn't run into this specific problem. There was a piano part that used the sustain pedal.
Tolles Video!!! So gut die neuen Geräte auch sein mögen, es gibt ein zentrales Problem: die Anleitung.
Man hat oft das Gefühl, mit dem Gerät einfach alleine gelassen zu werden. Die Anleitungen sind knapp, wenn sie überhaupt vorhanden sind, und meist ohne Liebe zum Detail geschrieben. Sie sind sachlich und emotionslos, ohne praktische Anwendungsbeispiele aus der echten Welt. Statt Inspiration zu bieten, beschränken sie sich auf die Beschreibung der einzelnen Elemente. Doch was man musikalisch wirklich damit anstellen kann, bleibt oft im Dunkeln.
Gerade bei Geräten wie dem Montage zeigt sich ein Trend: Es werden immer mehr Funktionen eingebaut - von allem gibt es ein bisschen mehr. Dein Vergleich zwischen dem Yamaha EX5 und dem Montage ist treffend: Der Montage hat von allem eine gehörige Portion mehr. Aber die entscheidende Frage lautet: Klingt er tatsächlich besser? Und vor allem: Mit welchem Gerät lässt sich besser Musik machen?
Ich persönlich habe hier einen EX5 und einen DX7 stehen. Ein Montage kommt mir nicht ins Haus. Warum? Zu viele Funktionen! Sicher, der Montage bietet mehr, aber hatte er auch mehr Musik in sich? Meiner Meinung nach: Nein!
Warum ist das so? Warum kann ich mit dem DX7 genauso gut Musik machen wie mit dem EX5, obwohl dazwischen 15 Jahre Entwicklung liegen? Der EX5 ist mit drei zusätzlichen Sound-Engines ausgestattet und klanglich völlig anders als ein DX7. Man hört den Unterschied deutlich. Doch beim Montage, fast 30 Jahre nach dem DX7 - oder 25 nach dem EX5 - stellt sich die Frage: Klingt er hörbar anders? Meiner Meinung nach nicht. Stattdessen bringt er vor allem eines: technischen Firlefanz, der vom Wesentlichen ablenkt.
Die vielen Funktionen halten einen mehr davon ab, Musik zu machen, als dass sie dabei helfen. Am Ende des Tages ist die Zeit abgelaufen, und die Musik bleibt auf der Strecke. Für mich ist der Montage eine unnötige High-End-Kiste, die ich nicht zum Musikmachen brauche. Vielleicht ist er gut, um herumzuspielen oder technische Spielereien auszuprobieren, aber für mich bedeutet Musikmachen, etwas Hörbares zu erschaffen - und das schaffe ich auch ohne überbordende Technik.
Außerdem klingt der Montage für mich wie ein typisches VST-Plugin: Alles wird programmiert und in Echtzeit berechnet. Natürlich sorgt ein flotter Prozessor dafür, dass es fantastisch klingt. Aber mit meiner alten Technik - ehrlich gesagt - komme ich klanglich besser zurecht. Die Sounds meiner Geräte klingen einzigartiger und individueller.
Was die analoge Klangerzeugung betrifft, bin ich ebenfalls überzeugt: Analog bleibt immer analog - und analog klingt authentischer als digital. Selbst wenn digitale Geräte versuchen, analog zu klingen, wirken sie oft zu „sweet“ und glatt. Das gilt auch für den Montage.
Hi, danke für dein Feedback! Ich schreibe den Rest mal auf englisch, weil die meisten Zuschauer hier aus dem englischsprachigen Raum kommen.
Yeah I mentioned the problem with the manual in the end of the video. That online manual and the 60 page pamphlet isn't worthy of a high end instrument.
My reason for choosing the Montage was that fantastic keyboard. Having a very capable synth attached to it is a nice bonus. :-) I should have made it clearer that I'm not _replacing_ the EX5 with the Montage. That'd be foolish.
All in all, the M8X is a great instrument. I'd argue the EX5 has even more functions, learning what all its FDSP algorithms can do will take years alone, and then there's a much more fleshed-out sequencer in that machine. The Montage is quite straight forward in its synth UI - the left side is used for creating sounds. If you listen to that Poly AT patch I demo in this video, I think that sounds gorgeous and very distinct, it's a typical Yamaha sound.
But yeah, that's only my point of view. I can totally see why one would not agree.
Thank you, Floyd! A wonderful and very informative comparison.
Could you please reveal which preset you used at the end (from 20:55)? Or does someone else know it? That would be nice. A beautiful sound.
It's the "Warm CP80 SySpLA" patch and a string ensemble patch. I played the CP first and the string section afterwards.
@@mr_floydst Thanks a lot! So I wasn't too far from that.
Please keep on with your videos. I started playing the keyboard just one year ago - at the age of 68 - and bought myself a Montage M8x as my first keyboard / synthesizer. Both decisions were the best of my life :-)
Greetings from Freiburg, Germany
Thank you for sharing, do you think the FM engine from the Montage can fully replace the Sy 99 ? on term of sonic quality ?
Thanks for watching - yesn't. ;-) Montage can't use samples as operators. You can't create your own algorithms (though I highly doubt anyone ever used that feature). Those are still rare thing sthe SY99 does. Anything else is "more" on the Montage. Better and more effects, better sounding and more filters, EQ and mastering effects, and so on.
@ Thank you so much Floy for your message, I will keep my SY99 for now :) , have you ever compared the montage to the Modx6+ ? I wonder how close they sound ? Cheers from Atlanta my friend !
@@mr_floydst I think SY77/99's FM is the best. Mainly because of the envelop looping (Segment Loop Points), which no one else can do.
Anyway, cool comparison, I have both instruments, but the EX5 has a much more characterful sound in my opinion. As soon as it sounds, I recognize it immediately, and the Montage can be anything: sometimes I get confused whether it's my phone ringing or I hear the Montage's sound.
Great paring. Best aspect of the Montage, besides having a modern soundlibrary/AWM2 has to be its implantation of performances. The new keybed with poly after-touch is probably the most grandiose that I have seen for a synth of this type, build quality is great and tank-like, like with the previous model of Montage, FM-X is also probably my favorite FM synth engine just slightly after the FS1R. It would most likely not replace my EX5 as my main board however, as the EX5 to me is a sound station that is utterly irreplaceable due to the instantaneous nature of FDSP and the unparalleled expressive capabilities of VL synthesis and if they added it, i do still love the late 90's sound Character and overall aesthetic qualities of the EX5, it always felt very special to me, for some reason, also from a historical point of view as a summary of all the yamaha synthesis innovations of the era.
I am very glad they added analogue modeling in the new M, which is something i have realized that i cant live without it as a synth soloist, even with AWM2 in my current Montage 6 is not enough to me, hence why i may buy a Montage M in the future, hard to go wrong with these as gigging/live instrument, instead of say A nord Stage, which i have little interest in as a sound designer. Great synths either way, I do think this is what the original Montage should have been on its release. I hope you are enjoying your Montage M88, congrats! looking forward to see what future O.S updates may bring, and future videos by you covering this synth, good purchase. Cheers!
Heeey Snupps ;-) Don't worry, my EX5 isn't going anywhere. That FDSP engine can't be replaced, until someone at Yamaha decides to!
But apart from that, this is my new center piece, together with MPC One it's really everything one could ask for.
I have an FS1r, but I was disappointed by it. The user interface is just too awful to program it effectively and the preset sounds are somewhat disappointing. The FM-X engine in the Montage is far more useful for real work. I even prefer the FM engine in the SY series, which is under-rated today.
Where did you get that desk? I love the stand that goes under the table.
Thanks for watching - that desk is from Thomann thmn.to/thoprod/548226?offid=1&affid=330 and it seems I need to make a video on that. :-)
@@mr_floydst Man buys great synth, people love the desk!
Wish the sy99 had the macro facility.
Ironically ive got it on mk1 dx7 via supermax mod.
I think the EX5 / EX7 indeed where the first synths which had the scene morphing / macro. (I couldn't find anything earlier, the CS6X had it, but that one was from 1999)
Looking at the picture, it was more about how great the synth released in '96 was.
Other way, the new Yamaha is a great synthesizer. For me, the VGA resolution TFT main screen is a bit of a 2000s-style technical solution. It couldn't have been easy to find such old-fashioned display panels when even the cheapest mobile device gives a multi-resolution picture.
A top-of-the-range oled screen would be better suited.
I agree, the EX5 was way ahead of its time (and people only discovered years later how great it really was), the Montage is strictly a product of our time, trailing behind in the screen department. ;-) Despite that, at least the M8X is a future classic in my opinion. It definitely has that typical Yamaha sound (warm, powerful basses) and one of the best keyboards I've played on synthesizers.
Would be cool if you could tell me what kind of keyboard stand on wheels you use for the Yamaha montage. I would buy ist too.
It's this desk: thmn.to/thoprod/548226?offid=1&affid=330
You're not the first to ask - I think we have a new video topic here ;-) Thanks for your input.
@@mr_floydst Thank you for your help :)
Hello Floyd. Did you compare Fantom 8 EX vs Yamaha montage M 8X? Which one would be your preference between these two?
Thanks)
May I redirect you to Kier Darby's channel? He did a superb video series on exactly this topic that leaves no questions unanswered. ua-cam.com/video/sVg8HZRsXAc/v-deo.html
I chose Montage because I know I like Yamaha's warm, bassy tones. Also, I bought a Fantom X6 back in 2003 and it killed my desire to make music for almost 15 years, haha. So I naturally gravitate to Yamaha.
They're both great. I actually prefer the keybed on the Fantom 8, which is much heavier than the Yamaha, which I like in a piano. However, the aftertouch on the Fantom is useless. The acoustic sounds are much better on the Yamaha, and the Fantom can have polyphony issues (apart from the V-Piano, which is unlimited). I also like the virtual ACB instruments on the Roland, especially the JD-800. The biggest strength of the Fantom is the front panel, which makes it a great control center for a complex MIDI setup. They both sound great (as does the Kurzweil K2700), so it's worth trying all three.
@11.55 right next to the screen, minor detail the EX5 has a lcd contrast knob, i wish the montage m had one, for the left quick edit lcd display, as the screen tend to be very bright when sitting behind the keyboard...standing upright not so much, the angle here matters. could be avoided with a simple contrast knob.
I wish Yamaha released a vst version of ex5, sy99 etc... like what korg did
Although not by Yamaha, there is a virtual recreation called the ‘blue beast’ it’s by gospel choir or something similar, you can look it up.
Yes, I made the patches for that plugin! ;-) It's a great plugin but it doesn't emulate FDSP. It's sample-based, very similar to AWM2, with some superb sounding effects.
@@mr_floydst I’ve got an EX5 bought from brand new and still in factory condition, it’s one classy keyboard, still has quality written all over it. Would love a montage but I wouldn’t part with the EX5. Got a Korg Z1 too, it’s another great keyboard from back in the day.
Ah yes the Z1. I'd love to try that one day. But they're really expensive on ebay and such.
I see that R20 is still sitting on your desk: are you still enjoying that despite the limitations? It's still the only multitracker with those features and a streamlined interface. Wonder if the SD card writing and loading is as annoyingly slow as some videos claim?
Yes, I use that thing everyday, and yes, it is annoyingly slow on some occasions. For example, if you record a punch-in from A to B - the R20 will merge your recording with the recording that was there previously instead of keeping both originals, which is, depending on your SD card, a super slow process.
But even with that, it's way more convenient to just arm 4 tracks for my UA-cam video capture and press record. Using a DAW for that takes considerably longer to set up and is more error-prone. I've had instances of talking and doing 30 minutes straight and then realizing I was using the computer's internal microphone. Stuff like that does not happen on the R20 by design.
@@mr_floydst makes perfect sense, thanks for the detailed replies and excellent videos. Yeah, I hope Zoom beefs up the R20 with more processing power and features some day. The interface is super slick and there's nothing like it.
I dunno man people are still into the AN1X right now to this day
Oh, absolutely. The AN1X is a fantastic synth and the Montage's engine is different. Inspired by AN1X certainly, but not the same.
Same with the EX5. Heck, I have one sitting no more than 6 feet away from me , sitting next to a Kurzweil K2600 , PC3K7 and a Roland Fantom X-7 and a EX5 rack in storage. I'll NEVER get rid of the EX-5's for a montage.
@ I won't sell that EX5. FDSP can't be replaced by anything, and it's sounds are both unique and pleasant. Even "in the mix".
@@ChurchBoy0487 true - i forgot it has that VL engine in there which is so sought after
honestly im not a fan of how quickly we got to "they dont make em like they used to" in the synthesizer world
I sort of regret not keeping the ex5r but it got twitchy when maxing out multitimbral performances, let alone the dsp ceiling, but it was fine if you treated it gently / did not ask too much at once.
EX5 can create some really unique sounds that no other synth is capable of.
incrivel , eu tinhas minhas duvidas sobre o EX5 ser um Montage versao Old, o Super Knob é a mesma coisa da 3 roda .. muito bom ..
Some EX5 owners aren't aware of that scene morphing feature. :-)
so nao entendo sobre os samples do EX5 toda vez que tenho add um piano bom , parece que fica com release e nao consigo tira , nao fica puro o som
I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but have you tried checking the amp envelopes and effects?
The EX (or an SY) is still the better choice if you want to write songs. Modern loop sequencer obsession and touchscreen interfaces are garbage.
I'm not throwing out my EX5. :-) But as I showed in the video, a lot of EX5 DNA can be found in the Montage, and it comes with all of its waves so one could rebuild the EX5 patches (minus VL minus FDSP)
EX5 , the best Synth on Earth , Greetings marcE
Yes, ... I should have made it more clear I'm not replacing it with the Montage. :-) Until someone at Yamaha decides to re-release FDSP and VL, that is. But that won't happen.
@ You can find hundreds of sounds on the internet that were made by me for the EX5 in the beginning when this synth came out. Just google marcE and you'll find them in no time
Yeeeaaah! Now that you mention it! Wow. Thanks for stopping by. I've certainly come across your patches. Great work indeed! I'm honoured. :-)
I have an EX5 (actually, an EX5r rack-mount version) and a Montage M8x. So I can compare them directly. I wish that I could get all of the sounds on the EX5 from the Montage. But the DSP sounds and the physical modeling sounds on the EX5 are still not available on the Montage After the EX5, Yamaha had a series of rather boring Motif workstations, which were AWM samples only, and abandoned the technological innovations of the EX5. Then, the original Montage basically rolled back to the SY series, which had AWM samples and an FM engine. Now we have FM, AWM and virtual analog. But we are still missing the physical modeling engines, breath control and DSP sounds of the EX. Of course, the samples on the Montage are superb, the keyboard is great and FM and virtual analog engines are very powerful. The polyphony and overall sound quality is much better. But the EX was still a high-water mark in Yamaha innovation, that hasn't yet been exceeded. I'll be keepng both and using them for different things.
I should have made it more clear that I'm not giving away my EX5 ;-) For the reasons you mentioned. Bought this synth for it's superb keybed mainly, and it's much, much better internal samples. Still waiting for a 2020s version of a VL hardware synth. I'm saddened Aodyo went out of business, their "Omega" shaped up to be exactly that.
Step sequencer: ua-cam.com/video/T_MIfND5ZdA/v-deo.html
Thank you! I already knew that video, but perhaps I slept on the relevant part - I don't think he mentioned a step sequencer. But I'll rewatch. :-)
@ please download the latest manual of Yamaha. If it’s not in there I reckon it doesn’t have it. But cubase has.
I have a classic Montage and an SY77. I understand that adjusting for inflation the SY77 cost more than the Montage 6. The build quality of both is amazing. You are right about the manuals. This is now a lost art. BTW the original Montage has a much better manual than the M. You might be able to get some useful info out of it as many of the procedures are very similar. Yamaha has abandoned the idea of 'real' sequencers, hence they no longer write 'workstation' on the Montage. But this is somewhat understandable. Why bother working on a small screen when you can do it on a DAW (and in all fairness, they do give a Cubase AI license for free with it, it is somewhat limited but stil way more powerful than they could cram on the keyboard). The SY77 seems to have been the initial batch of AWM samples, and while Yamaha emphasized on 'realistic' sounds, many of them are laughable by todays standards. Grand piano sounds like a toy. However the FM engine can also be combined with AWM in SY77 voices and this instrument can still produce amazing sounds 35 years later. It is also build to last, well, forever. In conclusion, I am really glad to have both here!
You're right. But still. ;-) A step sequencer like in the EX5 would be a nice thing to have for quickly adding a drum part or simple arpeggio. They went the extra mile and brought the sequencer back, so here's hoping.
I had an SY99 on this channel a year ago and I felt right at home with it. Some of the ideas in there were really forward-thinking (using samples in FM, for example).
I love my EX5. 🙂
Although, the FM looks pretty good on that Montage. It might be able to replace my FS1R.
So do I. That keyboard is not going away (and I'm still working on finishing my patch set ;-).
I always dreamt of owning a synth with a wooden weighted keyboard, though, and this is it.
@@mr_floydst I have EX5, Motif ES. Korg Kronos 2 and FS1R. I got Motif ES since I never used EX5 as a workstation, thought that workstation implementation was bad on it. Upgraded to Kronos 2 to have access to synth engines, updated computer integration. To be honest, I will unlikely to buy any new workstation in the future. I just feel in the box capabilities are simply superior to anything workstation can deliver, especially if you do not gig. Previously, workstations were intuitive, stable and fast way to compose when compared to DAWs but I do not think it is the case for at least last 10 years. I always felt that Motif line was a step backwards in sonic capabilities when compared to EX5, however insufficient DSP made EX5 an "ahead of its time product" . Montage to me also sonically is underwhelming especially considering the time that past since EX5 introduction.
I considered the Kronos 2 as well, it was my go-to "super expensive" synth for a long time (and it looks very nice indeed). I had the Montage for a month now and there are some amazing sounds you can get out of it. My short poly at demo in this video hints at it. I think that's a typical Yamaha sound, very CS80 indeed.
@@mr_floydst Agree. Listening to you demo , CS80 Vangelis-style sound aided by the polyphonic aftertouch, was the moment where I was thinking - I wish my keyboard had that.
Out of my budget, will have to do with a Jupiter 50...
Enjoy that 32 kg polyphonic aftertouch Yamaha 😃
Thanks! - I can totally understand that, and this video is not meant as a sales pitch. I like the communication part of UA-cam videos, though :-)
I felt really, really bad for spending this amount of money which otherwise could have been a very nice vacation with my family.
Romplers are the best! *Yes i know both can do more*
Thanks! I would put it another way, it's time for a ROMpler redemption arc. ;-) And I think the idea of a sample based synth could be explored more thoroughly (with techniques like granular synthesis, frequency modulation, and so on)
And yes, they both can do a lot more than what I've talked about here. This was just a "gut feeling" video.
@@mr_floydst keep these kind of videos coming!
I would love to have one but my keyboard skills aren't up to justifying the cost.
I'm in no way a good piano player, and deciding "high end synth or a very nice vacation with my family" made me feel all kinds of negative thoughts about myself and my life choices ;-) But oh well, here I am, and I'm not unhappy with this purchase.
@@mr_floydst on a side note, how do you feel about wavetable synthesis?
@@159awi I know it exists (for example, in my Novation Peak) but I rarely use it. I can't say why, but most of my musical output is kind of "no surprises here" anyway ;-) so I mostly work with analogue-ish sounds.
I'd love to see a new hardware modeling synth, though. I loved the "Objekt" plugin, but having physical controls and no licensing checks when starting would be even better. That field of synthesis is definitely under-explored.
@mr_floydst thanks! Another side note, Behringet just released the BX700. DX7 style FM synth with CS80 filters. Don't you want one?
The manual situation is a real drag. There’s so many functions, so much information and it’s not very well organized. A single manual, logically structured would be much better. I find myself turning to UA-cam videos for help whenever I need to learn or recall how to do stuff on the MODX.
I agree. As one other viewer pointed out, they're outsourcing the documentation to their community and let UA-cam advertisers pay for it.
@@mr_floydst Yes, and it's not just Yamaha. I have the same problem with the MPC and it's even worse because the UI changes a lot with firmware updates. In 10-20 years when those videos are harder to find, if they're still online at all, it's gonna be a headache to make sense of it all.
👍
Think I'll stick to my Integra.
Please do! This video wasn't meant to be a sales pitch. :-)
Integra is still a fantastic studio tool. At first glance I thought it to be a bit expensive, to later find out it actually is a bargain.
I have a motif es7... i would love to have a ex5.. sad how yamaha took a step back from the ex5 to relaunch it stripped down as the motif range.. i would love to have all the synth engines of the ex5 but i cant get the expansion boards in my country.. strange how things work. Congrats on having both excellent machines!!
I once talked to a Yamaha representative and he said that most customers were totally overwhelmed by the sheer amount of synthesis in the EX5, which lead to the more modular layout of the Motif series. (They eventually even dropped that, but it seems with the rekindled interest in sound creation by hobbyists all over the world, we're slowly getting back what was lost) ;-)
@mr_floydst that is true.. but it is at a price that in South Africa we can never afford!
Please please some company make a workstation that's not so tweaky with a Web-based library of sounds so you can just choose and download what you need. Kind of like Clavia but way cheaper and simpler.
In their defense, they have Soundmondo, which is a web-based database of sounds, and getting them onto your synth is possible in realtime as long as it's plugged in. The keyboard closest to what you're describing here seems to be the Astrolab by Arturia (I never had one myself, though, so take that with a grain of salt)
@@mr_floydst True about the Astrolab but I want hammer action keys, which I'm guessing the M8X has. Also, that "special look" of the Astrolab didn't work too well on me lol
I am hopeful that Yamaha will add FDSP and VL to MONTAGE one day... Until that happens EX5 is not retired at all. 🙂
You are right! (I'm not going to retire it either, I've just moved it to another corner of my room). I hope someone remembers FDSP, that was a great concept.
"there comes a day in you life, that you need a great sounding piano".. well.. maybe.. but then sample libraries beat this thing out of the water with ease! 🙂
That's true (for me, Pianoteq is the go-to plugin for that). I'm going to commit heresy here by stating that a DAW can substitute any keyboard synthesizer sound anyway, so the reason for buying a keyboard always is something else than sound; nostalgia, the immediacy of it all, the nice look of that classic analog poly in your studio and its cosy hum, or, in this case, that superb wooden keyboard action and hands-on user interface.
EX5 has VL synthesis, so EX5 wins.
For me, that's FDSP (VL on the EX5 sounds great, but you can't edit the algorithms).
@@mr_floydst I haven't really played with FDSP much. The uneditable VL "element"s can be edited with VL-Wizard, but not all the tweaks for response to Breath and so on that can be adjusted through the EX5 menu (EX5r, in my case). VL-Wizard can do both parts for the VL70m, but only the "element" is the same.
If the Montage M8X had string resonance, it would be perfect. The sound of the CFX is beautiful.
Yes, that'd be cool indeed. A keen listener will immediately hear that this is a synth piano.
The title should read "What 3 decades of doing the bare minimum and still get suckers to by this underpowered and overpriced sh*t looks like". A Montage M8X should cost 2500€ max!!!
wowowow, haha. I understand we're all passionate about synths and stuff, but for the love of god, there's no need to call me words. In my opinion, the whole package (weighted keybed with poly AT plus mechanical UI plus synth) is an o.k. value for the price. you can't buy a real piano for that price, for example. Thanks for reassuring my assumptions about country of origin and perceived angryness on the internet. :-) (That was a joke) ;-)
@@mr_floydst I did not refer to you as a sucker, I ment it that the companies think about us like this, I would love to buy a Montage, but not for that price. But honestly you are offended because you thought that I called you a sucker and yet you come out of the woodworks with a stereotype insult because I am German, a little hypocritical don't you think? Best regards.
@undercoverneunzehn in that case, please accept my apologies. Yes, that was hypocritical :-)
@@mr_floydst No hard feelings