Oh no, Joe couldn't have that. His children had to be perfect. Joe and his sons were abusive to all women. The media and the staff are to blame for covering up the bad behavior.
I think he wanted her nowhere within the radius of the Kennedy compound/family, as she wasn't 'perfect' and had to be put away. Out of sight, out of mind. Horrible.
I don’t know why old Joe didn’t leave her in Kent where she was happy & so were those in charge. They certainly could afford to travel to England and Kick ended up living there before she died.
I smell some eugenics attitude in Joe. It was because she had shown an active interest in boys. Can't have the mentally incompetent child breeding, now, can we?
Irish Catholic , Very common attitude of Rose. I don't know if you have read Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt, but it tells the story from a childs eyes unbelievably well, you really feel the personal pain in that book. It shows the harshness, the hypocrisy and judgement the catholic church put on the Irish people, the bitterness it provoked in the women, guilt in the men and the fear in instilled in the child. Magnificent read.
Yes, I read the book by McCourt, a very good one. The Catholic church, a huge indoctrinating cult, spits on the very values it preaches and spews, just as you say. Rose's warped moral sense, incompatible with any sense of love and compassion toward her own daughter, and frightenly blind to her own hypocrisy, is a perfect example of its essence. This kind of thinking permeated my Irish family as well.
Kathleen was buried in her recently passed husband’s family’s plot. Her gravestone reads Kathleen, 1920-1948. Widow of Major the Marquess of Huntington, killed in action & daughter of the Hon. Joseph Kennedy sometime ambassador of the United States to Great Britain Joy she gave. Joy she has found.
Marquess of Hartington not Huntingdon, they are miles apart. Hartington is located relatively near to Chatsworth the seat of the Cavendish family. Huntingdon is in a different county
Thanks for pointing out the kindnesses that Jack showed toward his sisters. Passing the first terrible night of widowhood with Kick, squiring Rosemary and making sure his friends took her merrily around the dance floor shows that Jack was capable of genuine thoughtfulness as well as selfishness.
Eunice was no saint, she used many of those people as free hired help. One of her sons drew a tremendous salary from Special Olympics under questionable circumstances. None of the Kennedy endeavors were ever totally altruistic or not self serving.
@@lostcontrol1981 The Special Olympics was started in Chicago before the Kennedys got involved. It was after JFK took office that Eunice Shriver joined the organization and then completely took over. Most people today think the Kennedys started it.
My cousin was born in 1962 with significant mental disabilities. He was non verbal and was believed to have the cognitive ability of a 1 year old. In the 60s, there was no infrastructure for helping people with mental impairment. It was the family that had to figure it out. Usually it meant the person ended up in a facility permanently.
I'm not sure Rosemary's disability was as severe as that. I think she was slow, and impulsive and prone to frustrated outbursts because she was always behind her siblings. I read another book that suggested she had bipolar and they didn't know how to handle the behaviors.
I grew up in Los Angeles in the sixties and there actually was a kind of special needs public school down the street from us. I remember my older siblings threatening me with “mom and dad are going to send you to Lincoln School!”
My brother was born in 1951. By age 13 or so, he was diagnosed as schizophrenic. He became paranoid and violent. This was back when they had large mental institutions with the patients involuntarily committed. It was so sad. My parents took him out at some point and he was sent to live with my grandmother, not an ideal situation, but he had harmed my mother while she was asleep. I think they thought my grandmother, who was a saint, could help him. He became threatening towards her, then he shot himself in the head, but survived. You might say he effectively lobotomized himself. The antipsychotic meds kept him sedated, at which point he went to live with my mother who was by then divorced. There were never any good options, only desperate ones.
Great job of transitioning the sadness that we felt from the sadness of the chapter of Rosemary to the vivacious “Kick”. Hope I don’t come across as sycophantic but your channel is my first UA-cam book review channels I have watched. Every book reading platform I’ve participated in has been Audible and obviously you don’t see the faces of those readings and they don’t interject with comments and imitations of voices, dialect, etc. I feel strongly though that your impressions, side jokes, and the range of emotions that are heartfelt and hard to beat! To experience the review you did of Rosie and the raw emotion that poured out of you was stirring and appropriate given the way the author seemed to portray it - disingenuous or misguided as it may have been and whatever the author’s shortcomings as a full recounting of the bigger picture of the way Rosie and her life were portrayed. The emotions were real and I felt it, as I’m sure all your followers did and then to effortlessly portray the story telling of “Kick” just demonstrates how talented you are of presenting the story and mood of the story the author is trying to describe in her book. Bravo!!
The Fitzwilliam stately home had over 300 rooms and a great art collection. Both of the families Kick married into were much grander than the kennedys.
Thank you so much Cheere Denise for the further research you did regarding Rosemary, as it is such an important component here. I have to say your follow up has truly helped to round out the story of Rosemary's life, and made my heart a little less heavy regarding it. Nice job!
To your point about disability rights, Ted Kennedy Jr. became a lawyer, a state senator, and a disability rights advocate. I'm sure that was in no small part due to his own disability, but I hope that Rosemary played a role in that as well.
Guuurrll-The denomination thing was REAL back then…my grandfather was a strong catholic from the MA/PA area. He came down to the south to play Triple-A ball, met and married my grandmother (raised a Protestant) while living here. His family up north NEVER approved or accepted my grandmother or his children for the mere reason she/they were of the Protestant denomination b/c they never actually met her, my mom or my uncles. It got so bad, he finally chose his family up north and left my grandmother here with three kids and a #4 on the way. He wrote a few times but the only other time he was ever physically seen here again was the day he came in to finalize his divorce with my grandmother-that just so happened to fall on my MOTHER’S 2nd BIRTHDAY!! Almost sounds like a Kennedy himself………
@@katiemarie4035 100% but my grandmother was a Saint. My mother said she never said one bad thing about him (which I believe is the right way to handle it-he May have left them high and dry but it was still their father and she wasn’t going to speak badly of him). Nooooow-I PERSONALLY got a lot of questions lol…jk. But seriously.
Oh no, in the 50s my mum n dad, one Catholic and one protestant married in a registrar office and not a chapel (wouldn't have been allowed anyway). Soon into their marriage after the local catholic priest trying to get into their flat to persuade them against the marriage and not allowed, had this priest shouting in their letterbox, "your children will all be bastard and devil spawn"!!!! Religion was grotesque in Scotland, still is in places. Still, really enjoying this book, lots of love from the devil spawned bastard 😂😂😂
Thanks for the Rosemary update and clarification. We have to keep in mind that we are judging people in the past with 21st century eyes. Not excusing, like you said. Plus its always good to read things with a critical discerning eye. Love your channel ❤️
What a devastating story! Here I am crying again! I never knew about Kick, and I was throughly enjoying her story and was cheering for her until I realized she must be the Kennedy sister that also died in a plane crash. What a tragedy. 💔
I like it when you do independent research and call a writer when she's being disingenuous. I was upset by Rosemary's story; your additional information helped greatly. This is why I like your reviews/reactions.
I don't think Kick's husband was weird for wanting her to be happy if he died. Even pushing the beds apart seems like more of a stress reaction. Sheltered young people in those times must have been under incredible pressure. Love isn't like it is in the movies, humans are complicated creatures.
If we are talking about those times, then in those times then aristocrat boys weren't sheltered about sex. Most of them were sexualy active since age of 15-16. Even encouraged them to go to brothels
I feel so sad about this. My aunt Rosemary born 1935, I was born 1963, was "simple minded" due to diptheria. Never went to mainstream school, stayed at home with my grandmother, who was wheelchair bound. When my grandmother died in 1953, Rosie was SA'd by a neighbour. My grandfather put her in a "home". I only met her once in the 1990s - to put it bluntly, she was mentally "gone". I asked my mum could Rosie feed herself, dress herself when she was younger and mum said yes.
Cheere, thank you so much for your opening remarks in this video. While I am no great fan of the Kennedys, I’ve had suspicions about Maureen Callahan’s motives and the overall objectivity of the book. I really appreciate that you want to be as fair as you possibly can. _ Thank you_.
You are a great teacher. I deeply appreciate your reading and commentary on these historical books. You encourage me to buy and read more books. I love books! Thank you for sharing!🤗
There's actually more information on her tombstone, it gives her title, and there's a plaque commemorating JFK visiting. Maureen Callahan is little shady with the facts sometimes, even though I am enjoying this book.
Kicks story was very sad..another Kennedy died in a plane crash..😢 I can't imagine how Mrs. Kennedy lived to the ripe old age of 104 after burying half her brood in such traumatizing accidents. The only surviving son was Ted and he barely made it.
Cheere, that introduction where you explain the Rosemary chapter was so lovely. Well done. These are not easy things to discuss. Families knew so little and doctors promised the world but were really just experimenting on the helpless. Thank you for your compassion.
Thank you for speaking out on this author ‘s failure to include both sides of the Rosemary story. As intelligent people, we should always try your assure that whatever is being told to us in any form has been approached with a balanced presentation. This is one big problem now. People believe whatever they are told without researching its validity. I constantly check things I have been told in any form. When you perpetuate a half truth it is easier for it to be set in minds as THE truth. I am a writer and I see so many factual errors in what I read these days. It’s disheartening to say the least. Thanks again.
Thank you for this update. It really shows your integrity and critical thinking. The fact remains that the Kennedy senior, was a disgusting human being and we can see that too in the way he raised his other “normal” kids. And of course his wife as well.
Cheere when you started this one I assumed we'd hear about Jackie and Marilyn maybe Rose and Ethel, I wasn't expecting all the rest we have heard about and are yet to hear about. I found John and Carolyn a pretty boring story really I'm not sure why but the rest have been riveting and honestly I was like "yeah I know all the Kennedy men were womanising drunks" and wasn't expecting to learn much but the scale of their monstrous personality traits as time has gone on with each story it gets more and more horrifying, their distain for women it's mind blowing and tragic and heart breaking. Your update on Rosemary was interesting and so good that you care so much about what you put out there when reading these books to us. Grey gardens is a fascinating story linked to Jackie Kennedy have a look at that it's insane. Love your content and looking forward to the next Mountbatten episode.
I read that the Dr wasn't immediately available when Rose was giving birth to Rosemary, so the nurse ordered Rose to keep her legs closed, resulting in oxygen deprivation for Rosemary.
Re Rosemary: Never thought much of JFK’s morals or motivations. However, from what I’ve read over the years, he was always kind to, and protective of his sister. I choose to believe he went to see her because he loved and cared about her.
I like to believe despite all of their faults, Rosemary’s siblings really did love her. It was just a shame they were all brought up in such a toxic environment by toxic parents.
There were so many truly positive traits of JFK. His womanizing was such a great handicap but his compassion & his intellect were the best of the Kennedy’s.
Looking forward to the chapter on Rose. Being raised in a large Irish Catholic household much of this chapter resonated. My mother went to her grave believing that Rose Kennedy was a saint on earth. Families are complicated. I listen to this and can't help but hear Katherine Hepburn saying “Well, what family doesn't have its ups and downs?”
The mention of Hepburn reminds me that I've wanted to read Mommy Dearest for years, and maybe now would be a good time. I will post the suggestion to Chreere.
I wonder how Maureen Callahan obtained the information about pushing the wedding-night beds apart. I think details like that should be explained right at the moment they are reported, because the two people who were there cannot corroborate the story. For example, maybe Kick told her best friend, who later told a biographer? How would private info like that become public knowledge?
I don’t think I’ll ever enjoy another book as much as I do when you read it. I love it. I still haven’t got back to Traitorous King, but will. Thank you for bringing so much joy and relaxation to this seniors life. ❤️❤️❤️
Cheere, Please find some time in the schedule of book readings for this one….Kick Kennedy: The Charmed Life and Tragic Death of the Favorite Kennedy Daughter by Barbara Leaming. You do such a great job. Thank you.
I read that Rosemary's disability might have resulted from her birth being delayed. The story is that doctors were paid for delivering baby only if they were present during the birth. Rose was giving birth at home but doc not there; midwife kept pushing baby up into birth canal. I have not independently verified this. If true Rosemary might have had anoxic, lack of oxygen, brain damage. So sad.
Christian families should be teaching their sons and daughters to wait for marriage. I dated a guy that wanted to wait, but he was always pushing my boundaries. He said it was his job to get as far as he could and my job to stop him. That is messed up.
This is very normal for families in that day and age. I started my career working with people with disabilities in the early 90's and I can tell you with their wealth and privilege they could have easily institutionalized her as a young child and no one would have blinked an eye. It was common practice to encourage parents to institutionalize their disabled children. The Kennedys had a lot of issues but this wasn't one of them. The truth is , the older, bigger and stronger Rosemary become the harder it would be to manage her behaviors. I think they really wanted to keep her with them as long as they could. Even Kick's opinion regarding the Lobotomy, of course she would think that way, she had the luxury of going out to start her own life and not have to worry/deal with Rosemary on a daily basis. I think Joe was an evil, evil man, but In this one area, because of my background, and working with adults with disabilities, .It's obvious he wanted to help his daughter and not institutionalized her.
There is a 1000 year history of "trouble" between the Irish Protestants and Catholics.I'm American and I remember my father, who came from County Limerick ,saying it ends with him. We are Americans and owe our allegiance to The USA
I think Rose was a part-time mother at best. I've read that she was often gone for months at a time on buying trips and hob nobbing. Nannies raised them and then they were given orders and expectations on their behavior .
I can't remember which book I read it in, but I read that the kids never had their own bedroom. Whenever they came home from school, they would just find an empty room and claim it for that visit. Which, I just find so cold and emotionless
Apparently Rose went to church services EVERY DAY. I remember reading this in the Boston paper when I lived there in the late 1980's and early 1970's and thought it was quite odd.
Cheere, Women had no control over men or finances back then!!! The Bible was used to beat people down and any girl raised in a nunnery or Catholic school was taught, with a ruler and a belt, that sex was for procreation only. Rose likely didn’t want all those children. There was no birth control or abortion or self determination. Women struggled with 12, 13, 14 pregnancies!!!! Pregnancy is hard but a dozen pregnancies is murder on a woman’s body. She probably learned that children were “resilient” and weren’t to be babied. She likely had zero control over their finances. And The Church was cruel towards women and children. Now, Cheere, my grandmother had her ankles tied together because she wasn’t allowed to have the baby in the ambulance. She had to wait until she got to the hospital. This was normal treatment of women until about 2000. This is what caused Cerebral Palsy. It’s likely what Rosemary had. I inherited dozens of these cases from a closed hospital in 2002. By the way, my uncle had cerebral palsy but they just called him slow. He lived a sad but short life. Now we know that Rosemary had cerebral palsy caused by lack of oxygen in the birth canal because of maternal abuse. Rose was lucky to have survived her very first pregnancy. She may have had PTSD and that’s why she disconnected from her children. Each of them brought her closer to death.
CHEERE! Every time I listen to a new slice of this yummy cake 🍰, I am so {{stunned}} at how each NEW slice is EVEN BETTER than the last! I am SO enjoying your podcast! 💐
I’m old enough to remember JFK’s Catholicism being an issue in his presidential run; it was during the same time that my grandmother refused to attend her son’s marriage ceremony in the local Catholic Church. She dresses up fancy for the reception but would not set foot on the church property. Supposedly, when my Grandma found out that my mother was pregnant, her first comment was “it better not be that Catholic M*****an boy!” And, 28 years later, when I shared the news that I was getting married (1980!) she said if I was going to marry a Catholic in his church, well, you know I won’t be there.” (We did a courthouse ceremony and his father didn’t come because if it wasn’t in the church, it wasn’t a real wedding.) These hard held biases were loosening up in the years following WW2 but they still exist in some places and amongst some faiths. Pretty silly that there’s only one God. We all worship one God. But YOU and YOU do it wrong. One Bible (or Koran or Torah or…) but if you think that verse means then you’re wrong and you’ll go to hell. It’s the mindset that has led to millions of deaths and immeasurable suffering and, sadly, it still flourishes.
This is EXACTLY why I have eschewed the “church” and religion. Too many factions. All thinking that they are right. Too much harm done to bring others around to their way of thinking. We don’t have to look that far back into our history to see what was done to the indigenous people in order to “civilize” them and bring them around to “Christianity”. I’ve seen far more wrongs in the name of religion than right.
Unfortunately, many denominations and individuals give scripture their own interpretation to suit their agenda rather than God’s specific meaning of the wording. The Bible tells us to ‘rightly divide the word of truth.’ That requires a deep relationship with the Lord and careful study and prayer, not just believing what suits our own purpose.
The Kennedys did have a sense of reciprocity. In 1960, George McGovern was running for the Senate from South Dakota. For some reason, the Kennedys thought they had a chance to carry South Dakota. So Jack made one appearance, a speech, in Pierre, I think it was. McGovern, a stand up guy, knew that it might be to his disadvantage as a candidate to be at that rally, but he was. It didn't go well. As Kennedy was climbing the stairs to the plane, he said of McGovern, "I think we just cost that man a seat in the Senate." Indeed, McGovern did lose. Over the next two years, the Kennedy administration did everything it could to make McGovern more electable, and in 1962, he did win election to the Senate.
The church where Rosemary lived is in Wisconsin, about an hour from my house. My husband and i "found" it one weekend on a drive...its lovely, from what you can see, its entirely surrounded by a tall stone wall and many many trees. The day we were there was a chilly mid autumn day, misty, foggy- all this to say the weather lent a mood that made me think that the inside must be warm with fireplaces.....i thought it might be an off putting place but it didnt seem so. If i had a child who required residence away from me and our home, this looked like someplace id think was safe, for her.
Thank you Cheere Denise, for your conscientiousness in research. Maureen almost always writes with a vendetta, I have found. On Catholics vs Protestants, they were at war with each other in Ireland for a long time. It was not only the difference in denominations, but also a political war with deaths. The animosity was generational. I found this out when my grandmother, who was Protestant, made what to me was a very surprising comment, something about the Catholic religion not being good. My grandmother was the kindest person. This was the only negative comment I ever heard her make. She lived in Iowa. Her ancestors were from Scotland and Ireland. Later, I read about the conflicts and understood where her impression probably started.
There's an article in Vanity Fair..in the archives When Kick's name was brought up to all these still living Englishmen, some cried & others became teary-eyed remembering that wonderful girl.
I was born before WWII. Was the product of a religiously “mixed marriage.” In some quarters, this was reason for exile from one, or both families. The problems this caused were, in many instances, unbelievable. Fortunately, my siblings and I were spared this, but often witnessed it in other families. Even as a child, I never understood this.
I love this channel It’s like listening to your mum reading stories to you , to help you get to sleep. And with the little bits of analysis in between , it’s perfect for folk who don’t have the patience to read a book themselves . Denise reading the book and explaining the context is a great idea . Perfect
I appreciate your fairness in this video. I too found parts of this book very one sided and dishonest. I also think that we have to remember the times. People were not always kind, whether because less was understood/known, stigma, fear or a combination. I think that ultimately the Kennedy's did a lot to help the handicapped with the Special Olympics and the attention paid to it. It helped people to understand and accept handicaps. I did volunteer work in a mental hospital when in high school. It was in a huge old Victorian house. They operated on a shoe lace, very few people visited, but there was a tremendous amount of love, provided by the staff.
I feel that Billy was just nervous when he pushed the beds apart. The letter was very sweet, and foreboding. As for Rose, I could never treat my child the way she treated Kick.
The girls remain virginal and the boys sow their wild oats question was something that always annoyed me, it seemed that parents didn’t care if someone else’s daughter provided their sons sexual wishes as long as it wasn’t their own. I remember my mother always going on about how I had to be ‘pure’ for whichever man would marry me
Sounds like my mother. What she didn’t think to instill was actual morals. My marriage broke up and I was lost in ‘What now?’ I’d waited until marriage but flailed for awhile trying to find a dating life when virginity was gone.
It sounds like one of those letters that soldiers are required to write before going into battle. They were placed in the breast pocket to be given to loved ones in case they are killed. I've seen documentaries on Kik. It's such a sad story.
Regarding the Catholic/Protestant thing. The Easter uprising (in Ireland) was in 1916. The Irish War of Independence (against Britain) was 1919-1921. The Irish Civil War was 1922-23. These weren’t “religious” wars, but in large part the Irish Catholics fought on the side for Independence, most of the “Loyalists” who supported or fought for Britain happened to be Protestant. It was an immediate distinction that generally indicated what side you were on. Also, while a minority in Ireland, the Protestants tended to be descendants of “settlers” who were sent from Britain to pacify the Irish (who were overwhelmingly Catholic). The “Catholic Emancipation Act” had been passed only a hundred years before. Add to that the 1840’s Great Famine in Ireland, which was perceived to be (purposefully) bungled by the British which displaced or caused the deaths of millions of Irish (overwhelmingly Catholic). There was a lot of politics and history wrapped up in what religion you were, that had little to do with the religion itself. Joe Kennedy was a political operative from Boston, the most Irish city in America at the time. He (along with most of the Irish in Boston) supported the IRA against the British and nursed the same centuries old resentments prevalent among the Irish. Remember the sides of the “Troubles” (guerrilla war in Northern Ireland of the IRA vs UK police, military and loyalist paramilitaries) of the 1960s-1990s were largely broken down between people who happened to be Catholic and happened to be Protestant. Again, it wasn’t religious per se, but what religion you were was a pretty good indicator of what side you supported. My grandparents met in Dublin in 1916 shortly after the Easter Uprising. He was Protestant she was Catholic. When they decided to get married, he converted to Catholicism. As a result, his entire family disowned him. The enmities were very real at the time, and for decades after. Some of it, in some places, still lingers today.
Certainly anyone who witnessed Cillian Murphy meeting Prince Harry failed to miss him keeping his hands firmly in his pockets😆Add in the clear scorn on Cillian’s face, unsmiling at Harry trying to ‘glad hand’ but hit a brick wall as he hurried past Cillian.
@@kcirtapelyk6060 there’s a lot wrapped up in it, especially because it’s been going on for centuries. That said, ethnicity does have something to do with it. But if I were going to use one word for the most recent decades, I’d say they’re political. Many people regarded British rule as an illegitimate consequence of invasion/conquest/colonialism (again, tough to settle on one word). The people who regarded it that way happened to be overwhelmingly Catholic. The people who preferred British rule tended to be Protestant. It’s a conflict with a very long history and is still something that incites strong emotions today. There still are efforts by some to unite Ireland and Northern Ireland (still part of the UK, as a result of the treaty terms of the Irish War of Independence…and what sparked the following Irish Civil War and loomed large in the Guerrilla war in Northern Ireland of the 1960s-1990s). Times are somewhat different today, but the emotions still run very deep.
I cannot wait to learn more about Rose and why she was surprised her daughter was drawn to a man just like her father and brothers whose behaviour was condoned by Rose.
I do now understand Rose’s reaction toward Kick’s marriage. Kennedy’s were lowly Irish Catholic, Billy was a Protestant Lord. His status made the Kennedy’s look “poor Irish”, beneath contempt. Actually Rose’s behavior does show her to be beneath contempt.
I believe in what you say 100%. The way you live your life is the way you , hope, your children will follow. To disown a daughter for falling in love? Can’t understand that. To me, that is not religion , that is control . Sad 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
There was a lot of animosity between English Protestants and Irish Catholics. Still much tension today. The fighting, especially in Northern Ireland and the oppression from the British government. Both Rose and Joe would have been part of the great potato famine that caused so much distress for the Irish and the main reason we had so many Irish immigrants at the time come to America. I think it’s a lot more complicated that just the difference between religions. Much as it is between Palestinians and Jews, these conflicts go back centuries. If I’m not mistaken, Joe Sr. Funneled money and weapons to the IRA to help fight the British (Protestants)
lt is such a thoughtless statement. JPK sent not one son, but three sons to WWII. One died fighting for your freedom, the second son survived but resulted with a bad back and the third joined before the end of WWII guaranteeing he would have fought in Japan if there was no end in August '45. What father does that with complete relaxation? JPK felt a deep, deep grieve on the loss of his first son that never healed. That means nothing?
Cheere, you are correct, the Kennedy family did try to get Rosemary help. In the time period in which she was born, most families would've immediately institutionalized a child with disabilities like hers. To Joe's and Rose's credit, they refused to do that.
I think the Kennedy’s rewrote history when it comes to Rosie. The blame for her misfortunes rests solely on Joe and Rose. They did treat her as less than and were ashamed of her which is why they probably sought different schools and treatments to “fix” her. I do hope the siblings cared for her and don’t blame them for her demise. They are likely victims themselves which is why many of them, mostly the men, grew up as sociopaths.
My parents were mixed denomination. My Baptist mother married my Catholic father and other than their 2 witnesses, there were almost no guests. My grandfather refused to give her away, but at the last minute my grandparents sat in the last row at the back of the church. My mother was their only child….what a shame.
I come from an Irish Catholic background. At 7 years old my mother told me. "If you marry a protestant, you will never come into my house again." This would have been about 1963/64. I remember thinking, I'll marry who I want. As I had watched, my mother who had married into her Catholic faith have an awful marriage. In fact she was dead by the age of 40 years old. How these parents want their children to suffer what they went through in marriage and by sticking to the rules of their religion has always dumbfounded and angered me. I found the Irish form of catholicism cruel and repressive.
I'm Lutheran. About 10 years ago I dated a Catholic man. He told me his mom and sisters would never like me because I was not Catholic. I figured we were both Christians and past the age of having kids, so why should it matter.
Joe Kennedy is the devil himself but the mother is hardly better. You mean to tell me the dad kept her location secret for 15 years and the mother let that happen.
My parents got married in a civil ceremony in the early 50’s. My Mom was Protestant Dad was Catholic, they had agreed to raise kids as Catholic. My Mom also followed all the Catholic “rules,” no meat on Fridays, went to mass on Sundays, etc. it worked out fine.
Cavendish, knowing his wife judged him for his virginity and probably knowing his father-in-law's attitude towards seggs, was probably anxious about it.
I’m not sure where this info came from that Billy ran in fear. What I learned is He left because his dad made him try and be a politician. He went back and led men in to battle. It’s funny how much totally different info about people is flying around.
Thank you so much, Cheere, for this insightful episode ❣ Kitt is my kind of girl. The men/women virgin thing is what we call in French : "La quadrature du cercle"
I Highly suggest reading or watching a video of Kate Clifford Larson who wrote a book about Rosemary Kennedy called "Rosemary. The Hidden Kennedy Daughter." She spoke to two of the Shriver boys. Eunices sons. She also had access to very newly released papers of Rose Kennedy which were previously denied.
"There is nothing that drives a child out of the embrace of fate as a parents hypocrisy."- Wow, that is such a great statement!
*Faith
RE: Rosemary, I wonder why they couldn’t have hired a nurse/companion and just have Rosemary live nearby. Surely they had enough money for that.
Oh no, Joe couldn't have that. His children had to be perfect. Joe and his sons were abusive to all women. The media and the staff are to blame for covering up the bad behavior.
I think he wanted her nowhere within the radius of the Kennedy compound/family, as she wasn't 'perfect' and had to be put away. Out of sight, out of mind. Horrible.
I don’t know why old Joe didn’t leave her in Kent where she was happy & so were those in charge. They certainly could afford to travel to England and Kick ended up living there before she died.
@@maryriley8077Joe needed a lobotomy. What a brute of a man 🤮
I smell some eugenics attitude in Joe. It was because she had shown an active interest in boys. Can't have the mentally incompetent child breeding, now, can we?
The Kennedys with all their wealth and power were lacking in morals, empathy and so much more.
Appreciate you bringing this to us.
True 👍 🇬🇧
90% of society was like that, it doesn’t make it right but the Kennedy’s weren’t any worse than the rest of the world.
@SJ-ni6iy WAS like that? I'd say are like that.
Kudos for the further investigation of Rosemary's plight
Irish Catholic , Very common attitude of Rose. I don't know if you have read Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt, but it tells the story from a childs eyes unbelievably well, you really feel the personal pain in that book. It shows the harshness, the hypocrisy and judgement the catholic church put on the Irish people, the bitterness it provoked in the women, guilt in the men and the fear in instilled in the child. Magnificent read.
It is on the bookshelf behind her.
Yes, I read the book by McCourt, a very good one. The Catholic church, a huge indoctrinating cult, spits on the very values it preaches and spews, just as you say.
Rose's warped moral sense, incompatible with any sense of love and compassion toward her own daughter, and frightenly blind to her own hypocrisy, is a perfect example of its essence.
This kind of thinking permeated my Irish family as well.
I hate the church . I love my ancestry .
I so appreciate Cheere that you call out this author for her bias and not giving a full story and instead going for pure sensationalism.
Kathleen was buried in her recently passed husband’s family’s plot. Her gravestone reads Kathleen, 1920-1948.
Widow of Major the Marquess of Huntington, killed in action & daughter of the Hon. Joseph Kennedy sometime ambassador of the United States to Great Britain
Joy she gave. Joy she has found.
Wow, that is a truly magnificent inscription! ❤ 😢
Right. She was honored on her stone with BOTH names. Again Callahan shade thrown unnecessarily.
@@MR2spyder100 Exactly!
Hartington
Marquess of Hartington not Huntingdon, they are miles apart. Hartington is located relatively near to Chatsworth the seat of the Cavendish family. Huntingdon is in a different county
Thanks for pointing out the kindnesses that Jack showed toward his sisters. Passing the first terrible night of widowhood with Kick, squiring Rosemary and making sure his friends took her merrily around the dance floor shows that Jack was capable of genuine thoughtfulness as well as selfishness.
Rosemary’s sister Eunice went on to establish the Special Olympics
And she has been very involved with it.
True! While they didn’t know what their father did, Eunice started the special olympics to give people with disabilities a chance to shine!
Eunice was no saint, she used many of those people as free hired help. One of her sons drew a tremendous salary from Special Olympics under questionable circumstances. None of the Kennedy endeavors were ever totally altruistic or not self serving.
@@lostcontrol1981 The Special Olympics was started in Chicago before the Kennedys got involved. It was after JFK took office that Eunice Shriver joined the organization and then completely took over. Most people today think the Kennedys started it.
Rose was cruel to Kick in every way. One uncaring parent is a millstone for life & her Pops was a disaster too. I feel for Kick so much
Kick was the only Kennedy who appears to have been her own person. It couldn’t have been easy for her. . . .
My cousin was born in 1962 with significant mental disabilities. He was non verbal and was believed to have the cognitive ability of a 1 year old. In the 60s, there was no infrastructure for helping people with mental impairment. It was the family that had to figure it out. Usually it meant the person ended up in a facility permanently.
My cousin was born with severe spina bifida in 1961. There was little to no special education back then.
Sad, but so true!
I'm not sure Rosemary's disability was as severe as that. I think she was slow, and impulsive and prone to frustrated outbursts because she was always behind her siblings. I read another book that suggested she had bipolar and they didn't know how to handle the behaviors.
I grew up in Los Angeles in the sixties and there actually was a kind of special needs public school down the street from us. I remember my older siblings threatening me with “mom and dad are going to send you to Lincoln School!”
My brother was born in 1951. By age 13 or so, he was diagnosed as schizophrenic. He became paranoid and violent. This was back when they had large mental institutions with the patients involuntarily committed. It was so sad. My parents took him out at some point and he was sent to live with my grandmother, not an ideal situation, but he had harmed my mother while she was asleep. I think they thought my grandmother, who was a saint, could help him. He became threatening towards her, then he shot himself in the head, but survived. You might say he effectively lobotomized himself. The antipsychotic meds kept him sedated, at which point he went to live with my mother who was by then divorced. There were never any good options, only desperate ones.
Thank you for clarifying the Rosemary situation, I was in tears too listening to you. So I am pleased she did see some kindness 😢
Great job of transitioning the sadness that we felt from the sadness of the chapter of Rosemary to the vivacious “Kick”.
Hope I don’t come across as sycophantic but your channel is my first UA-cam book review channels I have watched. Every book reading platform I’ve participated in has been Audible and obviously you don’t see the faces of those readings and they don’t interject with comments and imitations of voices, dialect, etc.
I feel strongly though that your impressions, side jokes, and the range of emotions that are heartfelt and hard to beat! To experience the review you did of Rosie and the raw emotion that poured out of you was stirring and appropriate given the way the author seemed to portray it - disingenuous or misguided as it may have been and whatever the author’s shortcomings as a full recounting of the bigger picture of the way Rosie and her life were portrayed. The emotions were real and I felt it, as I’m sure all your followers did and then to effortlessly portray the story telling of “Kick” just demonstrates how talented you are of presenting the story and mood of the story the author is trying to describe in her book. Bravo!!
What a lovely comment. I cried during that Rosie chapter too. It was so heartbreaking. Cheere humanized Rosie.
Ke e p in mind that Rose was married to Joe. She had to be messed up to tolerate him.
Oh, her brainwashed Catholic head was definitely messed up. 😮🤢😮
The Fitzwilliam stately home had over 300 rooms and a great art collection. Both of the families Kick married into were much grander than the kennedys.
Thank you so much Cheere Denise for the further research you did regarding Rosemary, as it is such an important component here. I have to say your follow up has truly helped to round out the story of Rosemary's life, and made my heart a little less heavy regarding it. Nice job!
The British were famous for forging through the realities of war and being very stoic in telling their wives to “carry on”. A famous quote.
To your point about disability rights, Ted Kennedy Jr. became a lawyer, a state senator, and a disability rights advocate. I'm sure that was in no small part due to his own disability, but I hope that Rosemary played a role in that as well.
Guuurrll-The denomination thing was REAL back then…my grandfather was a strong catholic from the MA/PA area. He came down to the south to play Triple-A ball, met and married my grandmother (raised a Protestant) while living here. His family up north NEVER approved or accepted my grandmother or his children for the mere reason she/they were of the Protestant denomination b/c they never actually met her, my mom or my uncles. It got so bad, he finally chose his family up north and left my grandmother here with three kids and a #4 on the way. He wrote a few times but the only other time he was ever physically seen here again was the day he came in to finalize his divorce with my grandmother-that just so happened to fall on my MOTHER’S 2nd BIRTHDAY!! Almost sounds like a Kennedy himself………
@@katiemarie4035 100% but my grandmother was a Saint. My mother said she never said one bad thing about him (which I believe is the right way to handle it-he May have left them high and dry but it was still their father and she wasn’t going to speak badly of him). Nooooow-I PERSONALLY got a lot of questions lol…jk. But seriously.
Yes!!! This time was COMPLETELY different about religion. Protestant and Catholic did not mix and was so frowned upon that it broke up families.
Oh no, in the 50s my mum n dad, one Catholic and one protestant married in a registrar office and not a chapel (wouldn't have been allowed anyway). Soon into their marriage after the local catholic priest trying to get into their flat to persuade them against the marriage and not allowed, had this priest shouting in their letterbox, "your children will all be bastard and devil spawn"!!!! Religion was grotesque in Scotland, still is in places. Still, really enjoying this book, lots of love from the devil spawned bastard 😂😂😂
@@lizziestevenson1908
Thanks for the Rosemary update and clarification. We have to keep in mind that we are judging people in the past with 21st century eyes. Not excusing, like you said. Plus its always good to read things with a critical discerning eye. Love your channel ❤️
What a devastating story! Here I am crying again! I never knew about Kick, and I was throughly enjoying her story and was cheering for her until I realized she must be the Kennedy sister that also died in a plane crash. What a tragedy. 💔
I like it when you do independent research and call a writer when she's being disingenuous. I was upset by Rosemary's story; your additional information helped greatly. This is why I like your reviews/reactions.
I don't think Kick's husband was weird for wanting her to be happy if he died. Even pushing the beds apart seems like more of a stress reaction. Sheltered young people in those times must have been under incredible pressure. Love isn't like it is in the movies, humans are complicated creatures.
If we are talking about those times, then in those times then aristocrat boys weren't sheltered about sex.
Most of them were sexualy active since age of 15-16.
Even encouraged them to go to brothels
I feel so sad about this. My aunt Rosemary born 1935, I was born 1963, was "simple minded" due to diptheria. Never went to mainstream school, stayed at home with my grandmother, who was wheelchair bound. When my grandmother died in 1953, Rosie was SA'd by a neighbour. My grandfather put her in a "home". I only met her once in the 1990s - to put it bluntly, she was mentally "gone". I asked my mum could Rosie feed herself, dress herself when she was younger and mum said yes.
Cheere, thank you so much for your opening remarks in this video. While I am no great fan of the Kennedys, I’ve had suspicions about Maureen Callahan’s motives and the overall objectivity of the book. I really appreciate that you want to be as fair as you possibly can. _ Thank you_.
I’m with you on observation about the author
I agree! Some of her sources are apparently the National Enquirer or on that level.
Kick's last names are on the gravestone. The writing is just smaller than that of her first name.
You are a great teacher. I deeply appreciate your reading and commentary on these historical books. You encourage me to buy and read more books. I love books! Thank you for sharing!🤗
There's actually more information on her tombstone, it gives her title, and there's a plaque commemorating JFK visiting. Maureen Callahan is little shady with the facts sometimes, even though I am enjoying this book.
I agree w you… there was much in the book I had to question.
I am glad to hear your intro acknowledging that the book concentrates on the negative.
Kicks story was very sad..another Kennedy died in a plane crash..😢 I can't imagine how Mrs. Kennedy lived to the ripe old age of 104 after burying half her brood in such traumatizing accidents. The only surviving son was Ted and he barely made it.
?? Karma??
Cheere, that introduction where you explain the Rosemary chapter was so lovely. Well done. These are not easy things to discuss. Families knew so little and doctors promised the world but were really just experimenting on the helpless. Thank you for your compassion.
The story of her birth was horrifying. For her and her mother. I just can't imagine.
Thank you for speaking out on this author ‘s failure to include both sides of the Rosemary story. As intelligent people, we should always try your assure that whatever is being told to us in any form has been approached with a balanced presentation. This is one big problem now. People believe whatever they are told without researching its validity. I constantly check things I have been told in any form. When you perpetuate a half truth it is easier for it to be set in minds as THE truth. I am a writer and I see so many factual errors in what I read these days. It’s disheartening to say the least. Thanks again.
Thank you for this update. It really shows your integrity and critical thinking. The fact remains that the Kennedy senior, was a disgusting human being and we can see that too in the way he raised his other “normal” kids. And of course his wife as well.
Cheere when you started this one I assumed we'd hear about Jackie and Marilyn maybe Rose and Ethel, I wasn't expecting all the rest we have heard about and are yet to hear about. I found John and Carolyn a pretty boring story really I'm not sure why but the rest have been riveting and honestly I was like "yeah I know all the Kennedy men were womanising drunks" and wasn't expecting to learn much but the scale of their monstrous personality traits as time has gone on with each story it gets more and more horrifying, their distain for women it's mind blowing and tragic and heart breaking. Your update on Rosemary was interesting and so good that you care so much about what you put out there when reading these books to us.
Grey gardens is a fascinating story linked to Jackie Kennedy have a look at that it's insane. Love your content and looking forward to the next Mountbatten episode.
When your nickname is "Kick"...you just KNOW you're fun to be around. (my nickname would be Napper).
☺
I read that the Dr wasn't immediately available when Rose was giving birth to Rosemary, so the nurse ordered Rose to keep her legs closed, resulting in oxygen deprivation for Rosemary.
This was my understanding, as well.
Re Rosemary: Never thought much of JFK’s morals or motivations. However, from what I’ve read over the years, he was always kind to, and protective of his sister. I choose to believe he went to see her because he loved and cared about her.
I like to believe despite all of their faults, Rosemary’s siblings really did love her. It was just a shame they were all brought up in such a toxic environment by toxic parents.
There were so many truly positive traits of JFK. His womanizing was such a great handicap but his compassion & his intellect were the best of the Kennedy’s.
This is such a good channel. Thank you 🙏
Looking forward to the chapter on Rose. Being raised in a large Irish Catholic household much of this chapter resonated. My mother went to her grave believing that Rose Kennedy was a saint on earth. Families are complicated. I listen to this and can't help but hear Katherine Hepburn saying “Well, what family doesn't have its ups and downs?”
The mention of Hepburn reminds me that I've wanted to read Mommy Dearest for years, and maybe now would be a good time. I will post the suggestion to Chreere.
I respect your effort to find more information and be more nuanced about what really happened.
I wonder how Maureen Callahan obtained the information about pushing the wedding-night beds apart. I think details like that should be explained right at the moment they are reported, because the two people who were there cannot corroborate the story. For example, maybe Kick told her best friend, who later told a biographer? How would private info like that become public knowledge?
My thoughts exactly 🎉
I don’t think I’ll ever enjoy another book as much as I do when you read it. I love it. I still haven’t got back to Traitorous King, but will. Thank you for bringing so much joy and relaxation to this seniors life. ❤️❤️❤️
True 🇬🇧
Cheere, Please find some time in the schedule of book readings for this one….Kick Kennedy: The Charmed Life and Tragic Death of the Favorite Kennedy Daughter by Barbara Leaming. You do such a great job. Thank you.
Thank you for the way you tell the stories of the people you are talking about.
I read that Rosemary's disability might have resulted from her birth being delayed. The story is that doctors were paid for delivering baby only if they were present during the birth. Rose was giving birth at home but doc not there; midwife kept pushing baby up into birth canal. I have not independently verified this. If true Rosemary might have had anoxic, lack of oxygen, brain damage. So sad.
Yes, I read that too. Imagine a baby is being born, and preventing it by holding it's head in.
Could be that or the Spanish flu
This is all true. Worldwide chaos ...
Christian families should be teaching their sons and daughters to wait for marriage. I dated a guy that wanted to wait, but he was always pushing my boundaries. He said it was his job to get as far as he could and my job to stop him. That is messed up.
And men say we're irrational 😮
This is very normal for families in that day and age. I started my career working with people with disabilities in the early 90's and I can tell you with their wealth and privilege they could have easily institutionalized her as a young child and no one would have blinked an eye. It was common practice to encourage parents to institutionalize their disabled children. The Kennedys had a lot of issues but this wasn't one of them. The truth is , the older, bigger and stronger Rosemary become the harder it would be to manage her behaviors. I think they really wanted to keep her with them as long as they could. Even Kick's opinion regarding the Lobotomy, of course she would think that way, she had the luxury of going out to start her own life and not have to worry/deal with
Rosemary on a daily basis.
I think Joe was an evil, evil man, but In this one area, because of my background, and working with adults with disabilities, .It's obvious he wanted to help his daughter and not institutionalized her.
There is a 1000 year history of "trouble" between the Irish Protestants and Catholics.I'm American and I remember my father, who came from County Limerick ,saying it ends with him. We are Americans and owe our allegiance to The USA
As the reformation was 500 years ago that’s impossible.
I think Rose was a part-time mother at best. I've read that she was often gone for months at a time on buying trips and hob nobbing. Nannies raised them and then they were given orders and expectations on their behavior .
I can't remember which book I read it in, but I read that the kids never had their own bedroom. Whenever they came home from school, they would just find an empty room and claim it for that visit.
Which, I just find so cold and emotionless
Apparently Rose went to church services EVERY DAY. I remember reading this in the Boston paper when I lived there in the late 1980's and early 1970's and thought it was quite odd.
Cheere, Women had no control over men or finances back then!!! The Bible was used to beat people down and any girl raised in a nunnery or Catholic school was taught, with a ruler and a belt, that sex was for procreation only. Rose likely didn’t want all those children. There was no birth control or abortion or self determination. Women struggled with 12, 13, 14 pregnancies!!!! Pregnancy is hard but a dozen pregnancies is murder on a woman’s body. She probably learned that children were “resilient” and weren’t to be babied. She likely had zero control over their finances. And The Church was cruel towards women and children.
Now, Cheere, my grandmother had her ankles tied together because she wasn’t allowed to have the baby in the ambulance. She had to wait until she got to the hospital. This was normal treatment of women until about 2000. This is what caused Cerebral Palsy. It’s likely what Rosemary had. I inherited dozens of these cases from a closed hospital in 2002. By the way, my uncle had cerebral palsy but they just called him slow. He lived a sad but short life. Now we know that Rosemary had cerebral palsy caused by lack of oxygen in the birth canal because of maternal abuse. Rose was lucky to have survived her very first pregnancy. She may have had PTSD and that’s why she disconnected from her children. Each of them brought her closer to death.
@@vbachman6742It’s not odd. I used to attend daily mass. It’s a thing.
Love your readings and comments. Thank you!
CHEERE! Every time I listen to a new slice of this yummy cake 🍰, I am so {{stunned}} at how each NEW slice is EVEN BETTER than the last! I am SO enjoying your podcast! 💐
I have a book for you! The Lindbergh Kidnapping Suspect No. 1: The Man Who Got Away, by Lisa Perlman.
Oooh I second this- I would be interested in that story! Also more Kennedy stories too!
Madame, I think that sounds fascinating, too. I wonder if the narrator has to find books that transfer into easy reading/listening ??
Yes.
Lindbergh murdered his own children because he was disabled. Lindbergh was a big time supporter of eugenics.
Ooooh! That would be great!
I’m old enough to remember JFK’s Catholicism being an issue in his presidential run; it was during the same time that my grandmother refused to attend her son’s marriage ceremony in the local Catholic Church. She dresses up fancy for the reception but would not set foot on the church property. Supposedly, when my Grandma found out that my mother was pregnant, her first comment was “it better not be that Catholic M*****an boy!” And, 28 years later, when I shared the news that I was getting married (1980!) she said if I was going to marry a Catholic in his church, well, you know I won’t be there.” (We did a courthouse ceremony and his father didn’t come because if it wasn’t in the church, it wasn’t a real wedding.) These hard held biases were loosening up in the years following WW2 but they still exist in some places and amongst some faiths. Pretty silly that there’s only one God. We all worship one God. But YOU and YOU do it wrong. One Bible (or Koran or Torah or…) but if you think that verse means then you’re wrong and you’ll go to hell. It’s the mindset that has led to millions of deaths and immeasurable suffering and, sadly, it still flourishes.
The number of atrocities committed in the name of God are inconceivable!
This is EXACTLY why I have eschewed the “church” and religion.
Too many factions. All thinking that they are right.
Too much harm done to bring others around to their way of thinking.
We don’t have to look that far back into our history to see what was done to the indigenous people in order to “civilize” them and bring them around to “Christianity”.
I’ve seen far more wrongs in the name of religion than right.
Unfortunately, many denominations and individuals give scripture their own interpretation to suit their agenda rather than God’s specific meaning of the wording. The Bible tells us to ‘rightly divide the word of truth.’ That requires a deep relationship with the Lord and careful study and prayer, not just believing what suits our own purpose.
The Kennedys did have a sense of reciprocity. In 1960, George McGovern was running for the Senate from South Dakota. For some reason, the Kennedys thought they had a chance to carry South Dakota. So Jack made one appearance, a speech, in Pierre, I think it was. McGovern, a stand up guy, knew that it might be to his disadvantage as a candidate to be at that rally, but he was. It didn't go well. As Kennedy was climbing the stairs to the plane, he said of McGovern, "I think we just cost that man a seat in the Senate." Indeed, McGovern did lose.
Over the next two years, the Kennedy administration did everything it could to make McGovern more electable, and in 1962, he did win election to the Senate.
I know that soldiers in the 1st and 2nd world war were required to write an encouraging letter to send to their nearest and dearest.
The church where Rosemary lived is in Wisconsin, about an hour from my house. My husband and i "found" it one weekend on a drive...its lovely, from what you can see, its entirely surrounded by a tall stone wall and many many trees. The day we were there was a chilly mid autumn day, misty, foggy- all this to say the weather lent a mood that made me think that the inside must be warm with fireplaces.....i thought it might be an off putting place but it didnt seem so.
If i had a child who required residence away from me and our home, this looked like someplace id think was safe, for her.
Thank you Cheere Denise, for your conscientiousness in research. Maureen almost always writes with a vendetta, I have found. On Catholics vs Protestants, they were at war with each other in Ireland for a long time. It was not only the difference in denominations, but also a political war with deaths. The animosity was generational. I found this out when my grandmother, who was Protestant, made what to me was a very surprising comment, something about the Catholic religion not being good. My grandmother was the kindest person. This was the only negative comment I ever heard her make. She lived in Iowa. Her ancestors were from Scotland and Ireland. Later, I read about the conflicts and understood where her impression probably started.
There's an article in Vanity Fair..in the archives
When Kick's name was brought up to all these still living Englishmen, some cried & others became teary-eyed remembering that wonderful girl.
Crazy how Kick was so concerned to keep her virginity until marriage but was okay with adultery.
Everyone is a sinner.
I was born before WWII. Was the product of a religiously “mixed marriage.” In some quarters, this was reason for exile from one, or both families. The problems this caused were, in many instances, unbelievable. Fortunately, my siblings and I were spared this, but often witnessed it in other families. Even as a child, I never understood this.
I love this channel
It’s like listening to your mum reading stories to you , to help you get to sleep.
And with the little bits of analysis in between , it’s perfect for folk who don’t have the patience to read a book themselves .
Denise reading the book and explaining the context is a great idea .
Perfect
I appreciate your fairness in this video. I too found parts of this book very one sided and dishonest. I also think that we have to remember the times. People were not always kind, whether because less was understood/known, stigma, fear or a combination. I think that ultimately the Kennedy's did a lot to help the handicapped with the Special Olympics and the attention paid to it. It helped people to understand and accept handicaps. I did volunteer work in a mental hospital when in high school. It was in a huge old Victorian house. They operated on a shoe lace, very few people visited, but there was a tremendous amount of love, provided by the staff.
I feel that Billy was just nervous when he pushed the beds apart. The letter was very sweet, and foreboding. As for Rose, I could never treat my child the way she treated Kick.
I like to believe that Kick & Billy are together now.
23:18 The double standards for his daughters but not his sons sums up the Kennedys attitude in general.
LOVE YOUR HAIR!! Your curls look amazing!
If you think Rose Kennedy is cold you should meet my mother 🙃
Bless You♥️ cannot imagine trying to navigate adolescence with a Mother who is so twisted in their dealings. 😢
Mine too! Mine believed she was the Holy Spirit seeking to tear you apart!
You can survive this, flourish and prosper. You can also achieve peace. Get in therapy and I wish you all the best.
The girls remain virginal and the boys sow their wild oats question was something that always annoyed me, it seemed that parents didn’t care if someone else’s daughter provided their sons sexual wishes as long as it wasn’t their own. I remember my mother always going on about how I had to be ‘pure’ for whichever man would marry me
Sounds like my mother. What she didn’t think to instill was actual morals. My marriage broke up and I was lost in ‘What now?’ I’d waited until marriage but flailed for awhile trying to find a dating life when virginity was gone.
It sounds like one of those letters that soldiers are required to write before going into battle. They were placed in the breast pocket to be given to loved ones in case they are killed. I've seen documentaries on Kik. It's such a sad story.
Regarding the Catholic/Protestant thing. The Easter uprising (in Ireland) was in 1916. The Irish War of Independence (against Britain) was 1919-1921. The Irish Civil War was 1922-23.
These weren’t “religious” wars, but in large part the Irish Catholics fought on the side for Independence, most of the “Loyalists” who supported or fought for Britain happened to be Protestant. It was an immediate distinction that generally indicated what side you were on.
Also, while a minority in Ireland, the Protestants tended to be descendants of “settlers” who were sent from Britain to pacify the Irish (who were overwhelmingly Catholic). The “Catholic Emancipation Act” had been passed only a hundred years before. Add to that the 1840’s Great Famine in Ireland, which was perceived to be (purposefully) bungled by the British which displaced or caused the deaths of millions of Irish (overwhelmingly Catholic).
There was a lot of politics and history wrapped up in what religion you were, that had little to do with the religion itself.
Joe Kennedy was a political operative from Boston, the most Irish city in America at the time. He (along with most of the Irish in Boston) supported the IRA against the British and nursed the same centuries old resentments prevalent among the Irish. Remember the sides of the “Troubles” (guerrilla war in Northern Ireland of the IRA vs UK police, military and loyalist paramilitaries) of the 1960s-1990s were largely broken down between people who happened to be Catholic and happened to be Protestant. Again, it wasn’t religious per se, but what religion you were was a pretty good indicator of what side you supported.
My grandparents met in Dublin in 1916 shortly after the Easter Uprising. He was Protestant she was Catholic. When they decided to get married, he converted to Catholicism. As a result, his entire family disowned him.
The enmities were very real at the time, and for decades after. Some of it, in some places, still lingers today.
Certainly anyone who witnessed Cillian Murphy meeting Prince Harry failed to miss him keeping his hands firmly in his pockets😆Add in the clear scorn on Cillian’s face, unsmiling at Harry trying to ‘glad hand’ but hit a brick wall as he hurried past Cillian.
So basically, the conflicts in Ireland were more ethnic based than religious.
@@kcirtapelyk6060 there’s a lot wrapped up in it, especially because it’s been going on for centuries. That said, ethnicity does have something to do with it. But if I were going to use one word for the most recent decades, I’d say they’re political.
Many people regarded British rule as an illegitimate consequence of invasion/conquest/colonialism (again, tough to settle on one word). The people who regarded it that way happened to be overwhelmingly Catholic. The people who preferred British rule tended to be Protestant. It’s a conflict with a very long history and is still something that incites strong emotions today. There still are efforts by some to unite Ireland and Northern Ireland (still part of the UK, as a result of the treaty terms of the Irish War of Independence…and what sparked the following Irish Civil War and loomed large in the Guerrilla war in Northern Ireland of the 1960s-1990s). Times are somewhat different today, but the emotions still run very deep.
Traces back to the legacy of Henry VIII.
@@zeacee Huge impact on the religious angle. That said, English Kings had been invading Ireland since at least the 1200s.
I cannot wait to learn more about Rose and why she was surprised her daughter was drawn to a man just like her father and brothers whose behaviour was condoned by Rose.
I do now understand Rose’s reaction toward Kick’s marriage. Kennedy’s were lowly Irish Catholic, Billy was a Protestant Lord. His status made the Kennedy’s look “poor Irish”, beneath contempt. Actually Rose’s behavior does show her to be beneath contempt.
I believe in what you say 100%. The way you live your life is the way you , hope, your children will follow. To disown a daughter for falling in love? Can’t understand that. To me, that is not religion , that is control . Sad 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
There was a lot of animosity between English Protestants and Irish Catholics. Still much tension today. The fighting, especially in Northern Ireland and the oppression from the British government. Both Rose and Joe would have been part of the great potato famine that caused so much distress for the Irish and the main reason we had so many Irish immigrants at the time come to America. I think it’s a lot more complicated that just the difference between religions. Much as it is between Palestinians and Jews, these conflicts go back centuries. If I’m not mistaken, Joe Sr. Funneled money and weapons to the IRA to help fight the British (Protestants)
The Kennedy s were overly concerned with how they appeared to the public.
They were narcissists. That is how narcissists are.
lt is such a thoughtless statement. JPK sent not one son, but three sons to WWII. One died fighting for your freedom, the second son survived but resulted with a bad back and the third joined before the end of WWII guaranteeing he would have fought in Japan if there was no end in August '45. What father does that with complete relaxation? JPK felt a deep, deep grieve on the loss of his first son that never healed. That means nothing?
We can't be sure of that. It's speculation.
Cheere, you are correct, the Kennedy family did try to get Rosemary help. In the time period in which she was born, most families would've immediately institutionalized a child with disabilities like hers. To Joe's and Rose's credit, they refused to do that.
Eunice' hard work to help establish the Special Olympics was her way to honor Rosemary.
“…there’s always a story of him being a buffoon on the honeymoon” 😂😂
I thought she was going to say "and the wedding reception." 😊
I think the Kennedy’s rewrote history when it comes to Rosie. The blame for her misfortunes rests solely on Joe and Rose. They did treat her as less than and were ashamed of her which is why they probably sought different schools and treatments to “fix” her. I do hope the siblings cared for her and don’t blame them for her demise. They are likely victims themselves which is why many of them, mostly the men, grew up as sociopaths.
My parents were mixed denomination. My Baptist mother married my Catholic father and other than their 2 witnesses, there were almost no guests. My grandfather refused to give her away, but at the last minute my grandparents sat in the last row at the back of the church. My mother was their only child….what a shame.
Riveting - thank you! You are a wonderful storyteller, truly interweaving intellect and heart with a great touch of humour! Listening in from France.
I come from an Irish Catholic background. At 7 years old my mother told me. "If you marry a protestant, you will never come into my house again." This would have been about 1963/64. I remember thinking, I'll marry who I want. As I had watched, my mother who had married into her Catholic faith have an awful marriage. In fact she was dead by the age of 40 years old. How these parents want their children to suffer what they went through in marriage and by sticking to the rules of their religion has always dumbfounded and angered me. I found the Irish form of catholicism cruel and repressive.
Omg! Thank you Cheere Denise! ❤
Great insight, love reading books along with you.
❤📚 This the saddest book ever.
Sometimes prayer is the only thing that God gives ppl to do for the unknown . I have heard of problems for years and now it's just a eyeopener.
Kick has a beautiful headstone. I encourage everyone to look it up. I'm surprised the author didn't.
I'm Lutheran. About 10 years ago I dated a Catholic man. He told me his mom and sisters would never like me because I was not Catholic. I figured we were both Christians and past the age of having kids, so why should it matter.
Joe Kennedy is the devil himself but the mother is hardly better. You mean to tell me the dad kept her location secret for 15 years and the mother let that happen.
I was raised Baptist and my husband Catholic. His died cried through our entire wedding ceremony (we were married in my church). 🤷♀️
My parents got married in a civil ceremony in the early 50’s. My Mom was Protestant Dad was Catholic, they had agreed to raise kids as Catholic. My Mom also followed all the Catholic “rules,” no meat on Fridays, went to mass on Sundays, etc. it worked out fine.
Cavendish, knowing his wife judged him for his virginity and probably knowing his father-in-law's attitude towards seggs, was probably anxious about it.
Kick sounds like the best of the Kennedy clan.
Unfortunately, she was an Antisemite.
Rose kind of reminds me of my great grandmother. Both were Irish to the ninth degree and devout Catholics. Cold too.
I think he might have been drinking from the other fountain.
Thank you!🙏🏻
I’m not sure where this info came from that Billy ran in fear.
What I learned is He left because his dad made him try and be a politician. He went back and led men in to battle.
It’s funny how much totally different info about people is flying around.
Thank you so much, Cheere, for this insightful episode ❣
Kitt is my kind of girl.
The men/women virgin thing is what we call in French : "La quadrature du cercle"
I am enjoying your conversation on this book. It has given an insight into the times and the family
Love your content
I Highly suggest reading or watching a video of Kate Clifford Larson who wrote a book about Rosemary Kennedy called "Rosemary. The Hidden Kennedy Daughter." She spoke to two of the Shriver boys. Eunices sons. She also had access to very newly released papers of Rose Kennedy which were previously denied.