Orfeo, Hindemith and the Early Music Revival
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2022
- For the footnotes and other extra information see the following link:
www.earlymusicsources.com/you...
Created by Elam Rotem, October 2022
Many thanks to Laura Mingo Perez, Anne Smith, Alon Schab and Leon Chisholm.
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Every time a new EMS video comes out, I'm astounded by the high quality of production, the insight and thoughtfulness - but also the exactly right tone of voice. How lucky we are to receive such gifts!
One of the best channels in my opinion.
Indeed.
Absolutely
100%
Elam & the team mightily deserve all these positive comments, I love this channel
Very much so!
Absolutely!
The chasm between the approach of Hindemith (recording in 1954) and of August Wenzinger (recording in 1955) with Fritz Wunderlich, only a year later, is vast. It is of great interest here to glimpse Hindemith's continuo 'realisation', but we should note that his edition was made not in 1954 but in 1943, for a performance at Yale. We might see Hindemith's 1954 performance already as a kind of historical reenactment of a work of mid-war modernism.
Good points. Thanks
I cannot help but take amusement in the idea that we can now document and preserve attempts to document and preserve early music, and provide both admiration and criticism for our past attempts to document and preserve early music. In perhaps another couple of hundred years, we may wonder how they will look back on our attempts to document and preserve the documentation and preservation of early music, while they document and preserve the music we enjoy today (but with the advantage of digital recordings).
You know what I enjoy about your videos? Early music is such a broad topic with so many nooks and crevices, and so much unknown, and yet people insist on polarizing this varied thing. "Composers were totally content with early instruments! Anything other than what I say to do is WRONG! Vibrato is EVIL!" "Early instruments STUNK! We should consign them to the fire and modernize everything! Vibrato is the barbecue sauce of music -- put it on everything!" They then pull on opposite color jerseys and go to war over it.
Your channel is the only place I've ever seen that tries to calm everything down and ask what the sources actually say, and state that there is more than just those two opposite poles, and that everything in between has value, and that we can't ever really KNOW what it sounded like. Everything -- even the most supposedly "scrupulous" realizations -- is inauthentic to varying degrees. You are really a breathe of fresh air and civility in the early music world, which can be a little control-freaky sometimes.
I completely agree. Very clever people in early music have been saying this for years, it's a shame that drama sells more, specially on the internet. It makes the success if this channel all the more impressive, without a single clickbait title on sight. Meme thumbnails are totally fair game though xD
Always a delight when Elam drops a video unexpectedly.
Those IKEA manual jokes will never get old.
I went to school at a time when HIP had to be "unemotional" and faithful to whatever little bit we could infer from the text. Even then, I was always suspicious... No way these works changed music history forever by being so boring. Then I heard Savall's Orfeo years ago. And then Profeti della Quinta more recently. Ahh... Now I get it.
I went through life with the exact same experiences, so this. Absolutely this 👌
HIP never *had* to be boring (despite Richard Taruskin's claims to the contrary). And no one who did it ever *wanted* it to be boring.
When HIP performances were dull, that was because of either the artistic limitations of the performers themselves or, in some cases, lack of sufficient experience with the instruments and style. In the latter instance, that was simply a stage that had to be gotten through.
@@mwnyc3976 fair enough. I'm just saying this is how I remember being taught and what I was exposed to, in my own limited circumstances.
This channel is s true treasure trove
Great video! "Quiet," "unemotional," "static," "changing only in constant color changes"--this amounts to a good description of Hindemith's own modernist style.
Exactly. What a great reminder that one's own experience shapes ones perception
Wow, that's interesting, I wonder which works you're thinking of?
@@jpknijff ua-cam.com/video/c8O3oCeBEMg/v-deo.html begins with an example I was thinking of. His most famous works for orchestra are not as representative of that esthetic
@@kathyjohnson2043 Kathy, I hadn't so much replied to you as to the davepierunc, but still, I have a hard time with those epithets for Hindemith. I don't find the Flute Sonata (which I know quite well) particularly striking as an example (plus one example is just one example), nor do I believe Hindemith would have looked for a particularly different esthetic in those most famous works for orchestra. On the contrary, PH strikes me as highly consistent as an artist (not just as a composer) and least of all unemotional, static, or even quiet in general.
@@jpknijff Maybe I'm off base -- it's just a general impression I have of his music. All those harmonically distant chord changes, evenly spaced, burbling along, a kind of kaleidoscopic effect, sort of decorous and without a lot of drama compared to other composers of his time. Do you find it otherwise?
The continuo player in Hindemith's "Orfeo" was Anton Heiller, organ professor at the Vienna music academy, and the teacher of Jean-Claude Zehnder (who was the organ teacher at the Schola in Basel).
I had no idea Hindemith was so involved in early music :O the more you know :O
You may enjoy his Suite of French Dances, arrangements of Renaissance music . It's on UA-cam. Gorgeous stuff.
Great show, enjoyed it a lot! 15:18 It's so interesting to see how "authentic" performances back then were received as being more "plain", "clean" and "un-emotional" (which surely they were). It's a good development in my opinion that since then performances and recordings have been emphasizing the emotional, rusty, crunchy sides of the music more and more. In a music where it's so much about "affetti", I always wonder why would anyone "attempt to avoid interpretive gestures" and put everything under the veil of a supposedly "clean" sound?
It definitely answered a question I've had for my whole life: why recordings of Haendel from that time period always sounded like Ambien to me. I so much prefer the modern HIPP versions from the OAE and CoCo, but I guess they'll be nitpicked in a century, too.
I remember listening to a rentidion of Gesualdo's Moro lasso al mio duolo, by Il Complesso Barroco, from the documentary "Death for five voices", and reading some comments calling that interpretation "too emotional", "too dramatic". And, after all, it's one of my favourite renditions.
My guess as to the reason they might have wanted to remove "interpretive gestures" is that it would have been all to easy to add "Romantic", "Classical", or "Baroque" gestures, since those were what the musicians at the time would have been most familiar with. By going through a period without adding such gestures, they could start either a clean slate until they could learn and internalize the actual historical gestures.
This may or may not have been the actual motivation of the early early-music performers, but it might help explain the ultimate effect.
This is a propos of nothing but I just wanted to point out that the engraving of the Hindemith version is SO gorgeous. We should all strive for such beauty and efficiency in our scores/lead sheets etc...
Absolut faszinierend! Ich hätte nicht gedacht, dass die Idee der historischen Aufführungspraxis, sich so genau wie möglich an den überlieferten Originaltexten zu orientieren und keine eigene Ausgestaltung einfließen zu lassen, eine für ihre Zeit so revolutionäre war.
What an 'A list' of composers! But, I had to laugh when Hindemith said that the performance might be hard for modern audiences to hear, knowing how these same audiences struggled to listen to Hindemith's own compositions. I've been listening to and performing early music for 50 years as continuing scholarship influenced performance practices. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge and skill with us around the world.
Thanks so much for these wonderful videos. ‘Back in the day’ (the 1980s), it was much more difficult to get a hold of performance practice sources.
Although my own career in music has taken me in a direction different to performance practice, your work is essential to me.
8:12 "Hindemith was rather bald"
Yes, at least in every picture I've ever seen of him.
I share Elam Rotem's love for Ensemble Organum's rendition of Machaut's mass. Was my first exposure to the work and is by far my favourite.
Totally agree! Ensemble Organum's is for me as good as Graindelavoix's.
@@Luan.Augusto
Ugh. I just can't agree. For one thing, both of those recordings have too much singing that's simply out of tune, and medieval polyphony really depends on precise tuning to make its effect.
As always, an intellectual highlight of my month. Having lived on the Boulanger/Cuenod recording for over fifty years, I still think it’s gorgeous. And it sounds as far away from today does Monteverdi.
I had no idea about the work of Hindemith in this subject. I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot from it. I guess we are all pioneers somehow. I myself, am the first oboist in Paraguay to play baroque oboe, the process is slow and discouraging some times, but the feeling of doing something that's never done before in your circle is very satisfying.
In the late 80's I saw a production of Orfeo at the university of Toronto. Tafelmusic Baroque Orchestra was providing the music on their period intruments, I was sooooo excited till they anounced it would be sung in english, that was such a let down, thankfully the performance was great especially the late counter-tenor Allan Fast extraordinary cristal voice.
Wow,, a delight to listen to these recordings and history of the interpretation. Another wonderful chapter. Congratulations to Elam and Earlymusicsources!
Fascinating! From a modern perspective, it’s interesting to hear not just the peculiar quality of the instruments in Hindemith’s recording, but also the heterophony of the ensemble and lack of attention to beat hierarchy.
Brilliant as always! Monteverdi’s Orfeo has a special place in my heart, and it was fascinating to learn more about the history of its performance in the modern era.
I grew up singing in choirs and occasionally we'd sing a Monteverdi song or two, which I always enjoyed. I went to university in 2012 and was introduced to Jordi Savalls performance of L'Orfeo, and from that point I got totally hooked.
Thank you Elam for shining a light on this topic. I've thoroughly enjoyed watching this video, and when I return to university next year, I'd seriously love an opportunity to expand upon what you have done here. It's a long way away, to be sure, but if I ever got the chance I know I'd enjoy the journey 😀
I love how on the map of the world Australia is actually missing. That sums up the cultural voidoid that was Australia. Especially in the 19th Century
Another fascinating and insightful video as always! Thank you, Elan and EMS.
The University where I studied had the album. Hindemith’s heart was in the right place but the recording is a shocker - and it was in the early 1990’s.
It mightn't be "historically accurate", but I do love that Boulanger recording of "Zefiro torna".
The graphics are amazing!! You pay such attention to detail, it’s so wonderfully entertaining!! Another stellar video!!🌺
'Original Insturments' raises an intresting conundrum. Montiverdi's ensemble would have most likely been playing on new or nearly new isntruments, which lend a different sound to their hundreds-of-year-old counterparts. If you look at most paintings that include violins (for instance, Vivaldi) we see the bright red tone of a new violin. Would this affect the sound to some extent...
Its a bit of a paradox - performing on original instruments means you can't perform with original sounding instruments
Well, these days most of the playing is done on new-ish copies of period instruments.
Watching this, I am reminded of the lecture our music history professor delivered on L’Orfeo when I was working on my undergraduate degree. He pointed out to us how Malipiero’s realization of Monteverdi’s continuo-presented in our anthology-contained various inaccuracies. Probably not as extreme as those showed in this video by Hindemith, but I thought it was an interesting observation in what could have otherwise been a generic lecture.
Later on, I completed my masters degree in musicology. I ended up writing my thesis on Mendelssohn, but I went into the program thinking I would focus on early music. This channel provides so much educational value on the topic, and I’ve gained so many deeper insights into issues thanks to your videos. Thank you for the work you are doing!
Interesting list in 2:15. It shows that the Nationaltheater Mannheim was the second Opera house in Germany performing Orfeo. From documents in the city archive of Mannheim (MARCHIVUM), you can see that it's premier was on April 17, 1925. It was rearrangement by Carl Orff and was performed four times during that season.
In the same year, Mannheim hosted the first exhibition on "Neue Sachlichkeit" in the Kunsthalle Mannheim. These are a good example of the experimental spirit of the 1920s in Germany
Fascinating observations: the excerpt with Souzay, I thought, was exquisite.
Wow, that D’Indy arrangement in that recording is just sooo beautiful.
Fantastic video!!! As a violist I was happily surprised to learn this about Hindemith. Say, do you think you could do a video on any early music of Eastern Europe or the Balkan-Turkic regions? Like Byzantine chant or something?
Amazing episode!! To me personal this was one of the most interesting episodes I've seen here. That last Hindemith statement though: HIPP-gatekeeping-attitude already back then :DDD
...that snippet from the d'Indy arrangement: just wow! I'm stoked! This harmonic motion towards the a minor chord + this appoggiatura ...This could be taken from Pelléas et Mélisande... well, maybe not exactly but I guess that's the overall approach! :D Love it!
I remember the Ensemble Organum recording of Machaut being a revelation; while it in itself may not be "accurate", it really shows how much can be interpreted based on what little information we have.
D'Indy work - what stunning singing
Thank you for this vital piece of history of historic performance practice.
👍👍👍 Thanks !
נפלא! עלה והצליח! תענוג אמיתי.
So cool video Elam, as always, thank you!
What an interesting topic for a video, really lovely 🎉
Once again thank you for a fabulous video, beautifully constructed, and on such an important subject. You prove that talking about music can indeed be a musical experience! The Souzay blew my mind =24 hour binge - then led on to finding d'indy's astonishing piano playing.
Jeepers, that D'Indy arrangement is absolutely stunning. What find!
Yet another excellent video I've had to catch up on. We may never know exactly how music was performed but it seems reasonable to think that we have gotten closer than Hindemith could with time. Nevertheless, this channel has pointed out that many of the accepted norms in performances of early music even today are most certainly inauthentic! The bright side is that there is still room for progress. Thanks again for these videos!
Fascinating!
Great work, thabks. This channel is the best thing on youtube.
I also love the Ensemble Organum performance of Machauts Mass de Notre Dame!
That Ensemble Organum recording of Machaut is so beautiful it's insane. It really shows how performers can make or break a piece of music, any other performance just sounds like a normal piece of Medieval choral music. Another example is Les Noces performed by the Pokrovsky Ensemble, which really brings out the rich, jagged, folky quality of the music in a way that no other performance comes near.
Yes, but not all new performances of Machaut sounds like this, this is the vision of Marcel Peres, which is also somewhat controversial.
You should listen to the recording of Les Noces by Teodor Currentzis and MusicAeterna. All of the folky, jagged quality of the music, with terrific folky pronunciation of the Russian, but always in tune.
@@mwnyc3976 I'll check it out, although being in tune is sometimes overrated ;)
@@whatsthatnoise5955
I'm afraid I cannot agree with that. Not at all.
Which is most of why I hate the Ensemble Organum recording of Machaut's La Messe de Nostre Dame.
The group I recommend for that repertory is Diabolus in Musica, with a second preference for Gothic Voices.
@@mwnyc3976 Yes! That's also a good version. I dunno, I like both, but the ensemble organum one holds a special place for me because it sounds so unique. I'm not sure you can really say it's "out of tune", might I humbly suggest you may be thinking too narrowly about what "in tune" means...
Fascinating story and excellent way of telling it. Great job (once again)!
Great lesson, thanx!
I have found a goldmine. Thank you so much for this incredibly thoughtful material presented in the most digestible form available- a true service.
Excellent video, Elam. For laughs, you might try to get a hold of the movie "Anthony Adverse" (1936), in which Olivia de Havilland lip-syncs "Lasciate i monti"...
That was nice. Thank you, Mr Rotem.
I was 15 when I was first struck by the undeniable beauty of _L'Orfeo_ --that was in the days of radio. Since then, it's been great pleasure to compare different renditions, especially enthusiastic productions in roughly last 20 years. Not only from musical point of view, but stage design, lighting, dance and other departments as well. Surely, there's some aspect to enjoy in each of them. (By the way, Harnoncourt got to direct his version several times, in Vienna and Zürich.)
6:00 --- From humble listener's perspective, may I add that the Ensemble Organum version of De Machaut's missa sounds somewhat close to the Eastern (Orthodox) tradition, which is more interesting than the British approach. We must remind ourselves that, despite obvious difficulties, there's always been interaction between the East and the West. (In Eastern Mediterranean, influence and transition in Orthodox, Jewish and Muslim chant, with cultural-geographical subdivisions, is a curious subject in itself.)
_[---Edit: As I'm now listening to the Pérès/Organum version in its entirety, just as apparent as the Orthodox tradition is the influence of polyphonic chant from regions close (Corsica, Sardinia) and far (Albania, Georgia). A breath of fresh air, indeed.]_
Finally, reverence to the memory of Hindemith, who has contributed greatly to the foundation of modern music education in the (then) young Republic of Turkey, which happens to be my country.
Waving from Istanbul.
"the Orthodox tradition is the influence of polyphonic chant from regions close (Corsica, Sardinia)"
In fact, half of the singers Pérès used on that recording were, or at least had been, Corsican shepherds. Pérès learned about traditional Corsican polyphony, went to find singers who did it, taught them to read music, and then used them in Machaut and other medieval repertoire.
@@mwnyc3976 That's exciting information. Thank you.
IDEAL. Other presentations should use this as model. Thankyou.
Great video once again! We have a vocal ensemble in Brazil and in our rehearsals, we always look in to your videos to learn more about early music. Sorry to put a link here in your channel 😞We really love if you guys have a look in our work! Thanks and have a great week! 🙂
I'm in baroque music history for my master's. L'Orfeo was one work of focus this semester, so this caught my attention. Thanks!
A good video as expected. On my way to go listen to Profeti della Quinta's Orfeo
This was wonderfully informative.
Listening a second time I am noticing that Orfeo’s Lament in entry is amazingly similar, if not completely identical to Dowland’s “Flow, My Tears”
seriously EXCELLENT video this one boys 🎉🎉🎉
I love it when dogma's are shaken and laws are confronted with their relativity. Maybe the greatness of these famous classical composers is that their music survives all different possible kinds of performance practices through the centuries.
2:55 And i am with him!!!!
My favorite chapter so far. Bravissimo Elam! ❤
You should make a post on the website or video on your favorite early music recordings. Like, modern recordings of early music, not old recordings :)
Molto interessante come sempre, grazie !
Thanks!
Thank you for another brilliant video! Alas, the disdain for affectivity in “early-music” performance that Hindemith espoused is still with us. I myself am old enough to have witnessed its spread and widespread acceptance; and I have treated of the subject in an autobiographical memoir, published as an electronic book on Amazon under the title, “Up from Authenticity”. In some ways the “early music movement” is an unfortunate development, especially since it has encouraged a kind of ghettoization of the performance of the older repertoire. It would have been better if it could have taken the form of a re-education of “mainstream”musicians, from the very beginning-but this was perhaps impossible, given the rigidity of mainstream performance in those days. In particular, I should mention the movement’s insistence on the 18th-century flute, in preference to the modern flute, in its cylindrical and conical forms: I grit my teeth whenever I have to listen to the old flute’s faulty intonation and its lack of ability to address many of the problems of the older repertoire, which was allegedly composed for it. Likewise, I take issue with the avoidance of vibrato on both flute and recorder, and the lack of a supported tone on the latter. Really, there is no such thing as “authentic performance”: rather, there are musical and unmusical interpretations. Historical sources and musicological research are valuable tools to increase our musical sensibility; but they are adjuncts, not substitutes, for musicianship. The music itself tells us how it may be performed: and in saying this, I do not mean to minimize the fine scholarly work that has helped to illuminate the beauties of the older repertoire.
excellent video
Great, and very interesting video!!!!
What a fantastic and inspiring episode! Thank you so much for your contribution to music education❗
haha Hindemith sccammer!!! i loved to watch this, especially being in Vienna
Amazing video - Would love to see a video on Monteverdi's Vespers of 1610!
Really interesting and well done. Thanks!
Fascinating -- many thanks for this! I have long been intrigued by the little I knew of this performance, but I didn't even realize it's been recorded! Two points of interest:
First, Monica Mertl, Harnoncourt's biographer ("Vom Denken des Herzens: Alice und Nikoluas Harnoncourt", Residenz Verlag, 1999) cites this performance as the "inoffizielles Debüt" of Harnoncourt's ensemble, Concentus Musicus Wien.
Secondly: Daniel Leech-Wilkinson's 1984 article, claiming that the Early Music Movement tends always towards less expression, actually contains a footnote that flatly contradicts his own claim, specifically with regards to Monteverdi. In the main text, he cites three performances of Monteverdi's Ballo delle Ingrate (by Boulanger, Leppard and Christie) as one more piece of evidence that 'historical' performance is becoming increasingly inexpressive. But in a footnote, he admits that actually, these performances prove the exact opposite: that historically-informed performances of Monteverdi are becoming *more* expressive. This, of course, reflects the stauts quo in 1984, when DLW wrote his article -- not in 1954...
Interestingly, Harnoncourt argued that he turned to historical performance style because he wanted to present Baroque music in a *more* expressive manner. However, I feel that it took a couple of decades for his actual performance style to catch up to his rhetoric.
Thanks Uri! Interesting comments
So true!
Great!! Interesting thoughts!
Wonderful !
Great video, thanks for the explanation!
Thanks for this post. 😊😊
15:51-16:11_ soulful and superior to the modern "noise".✝️
Excellent analysis. Thanks!
Very good!
Hello! Great video again! It's interesting how Hindemith 'adapted' the original score. I think it was, because they were not used to a score where are nearly no indications written. That's what I like about Renault and Baroque music. It has this improvisation feeling, this about the creativity of the interpreter still inside. And the score was completely naked compared to today's scores of music and that let the musical window open for imagination.
Your channel is amazing, congratulations
Absolutely brilliant...I'd love to see more videos like this on the history and development of the historic practice and related movements.
Again great, my congratulation for this extraordinary video!
Great speech! Thank you very much!
I still prefer the Jordi Savall version in Teatre del Liceu in Barcelona. For me a canonic one. Very interesting video you made.
If only, as perhaps with Ovid, we had both the original at hand, and it's inspired metamorphoses....
Merci d'exister ! Quel remarquable travail pédagogique et artistique !
I’m glad you mentioned Nikolaus Harnoncourt, I was worried he would not get his due diligence! Great video as always Maestro!
What sparked interest in 16th, 17th and 18th century European composers in the 19th century, like when Orfeo was republished?
Valeu!
Thank you for bringing together two of my favorite Composers, Monteverdi and Hindemith. A very mechanical interpretation of Orfeo admittedly so I will take instead Blomstedt's interpretation of Mathis Der Maler or any of Hindemith's works he did with the San Francisco Orchestra.
For Orfeo, I am quite partial to John Eliot Gardiner's probably because it was the first I heard which causes a certain bias. So much of what we like is caused by familiarity. This effect compounded by generations brings us to where we are.
For a little treat, have you seen the short film available on UA-cam titled "The Brothers Quay - Eurydice 2007" ? This is a beautiful little film. Best regards to the Team.
A good reason for Gardiner's (first) recording of L'Orfeo to be a favorite is because it's so well sung. Anthony Rolfe Johnson is simply a gorgeous-voiced Orfeo (a role that really should have a gorgeous voice), Julianne Baird is still the best Euridice I've ever heard, and Anne Sofie von Otter, though she used more vibrato than I'd have liked, was a really moving Messaggera.
@@mwnyc3976 I couldn't agree more. I've seen some People speak unfavorably about it and I was completely at a loss to understand why. I return to this recording again and again. Another Hallmark recording is Una Stravaganza Dei Medici. A Masterpiece in every sense.
@@IIImobiusIII
You mean the Parrott recording? Yes, I think that's still the best version of the Florentine Intermedi.
@@mwnyc3976 Yes. It's wonderful. I was just rewatching the Japanese Copy of the Laserdisc on UA-cam. I didn't know it was actually produced and televised as an actual series of Masques. To bad its not a better source. You don't see this type of production very often.
You had me when you said Paul Hindemith.
I would really want to hear some of Hindemith's compositions played on early instruments!
Wonderful video. I bought quite a few recordings in the 1970s that proudly proclaimed to be performances with original instruments. While the performances were certainly different from those previously recorded, it seemed obvious (at the time) that these new recordings were no more authentic in sound than all the previous releases.