Great video Tom and a subject close to my heart. Never quite understood why they haven't captured more hearts and minds of fingerstyle guitar players. I almost always play in alternate tunings often going as low as a B. Fan frets definitely sound sweeter for these lower tunings for all the reasons you highlighted. I guess some don't like the look of a Salvador Dali guitar with the frets melting off each end of the fingerboard. Still others think they are difficult to play or that playing one will disrupt your muscle memory when you switch back to a traditionally fretted guitar (neither is true). I love them. And honestly I was only thinking a few days ago "why doesn't Tom Sands make a fan fret"!
We’ve actually made a few, they’re always an interesting challenge. I’m always surprised how ‘transparent’ they feel, I’ve never had a problem noodling away!
Ralph Novak began talking about the concepts behind fan fret guitars about 35 years ago, and one of my takeaways from my conversations with him was the better intonation available for lowered tunings given the string gauges you intend to use. For example, DADGAD tuning with a set of strings like D'Addario EJ24 true mediums (.013, .017, .024, .032, .042, .056; basically a set of light gauge strings with medium gauges for the lowered strings) can make setting the saddle intonation in the correct place difficult on a 25" or 25.4" scale guitar, and some strings may be less in tune as you get up the fretboard. I've found even a small fan, such as 24.9" - 25.4" can make a big difference in how well the guitar plays in tune, especially chords in higher positions on the neck that include an open string in tunings like DADGAD.
This is a great explanation. I have a 7 string bass guitar with 35"-33.5" fanned frets and play it in the regular B,E,A,D,G,C,F tuning. I enjoy the more even feel of the sting tensions being closer together giving the best of both scales. The other thing is it puts the elbow pivot and hand at a better disposition to access the frets because they are pointed towards the elbow- so you don't have to move your arm around as much. Upper fret access is a little easier.
@@TomSandsGuitars This is a Fodera I bought used online. There's also a new workshop model Ibanez has just released very similar to mine called the BTB7MS- I've already preordered one of those : )
I enjoyed the demo by Henry and found it helpful. I can definitely hear/see him playing differently with each guitar. The unanswered question for me is "does a fan fret design make sense for smaller guitars?" - such as a Model S? I have a fan fret Baritone (Italy's David Serracini) and I love the comfort and tone. My Sand Model M is NOT fan fret but it seems to handle lower tunings perfectly. Thanks, John Gig Harbor, WA
Hi John, a fan fret would be a good idea on a smaller guitar if you were planning on keeping it in lowered tunings. It really depends what you expect from a guitar and where you expect it to perform best. Glad the M is doing it for you!
Basically necessary for 7 string acoustics. I have a fanned fret by Michael Kennedy that was built around CGCGCD tuning, using a 13 gauge set and swapping out the low string with a .059. Sounds great and I'm occasionally tempted to order a "light" baritone tuned B-b down the road if I can figure out a light set, scale length, and less "overbuilt".
I had a fan fret baritone which sounded great in lowered tunings. But it was deep and heavy and I found it ergonomically difficult. I now have a good compromise. A straight fretted 25.3” scale guitar with heavy gauge strings and tuned D to D. I can easily lower the low D to C or put it into a DADGAD equivalent but C to C. Pop a capo on the 2nd fret and it becomes a short scale std guitar. It’s working well for me. But, I’d love to try one of those Taran fan fret 25” to 25.5”. I’ll think about getting one from Tom. Might possibly be affordable.
Rory makes great guitars. I haven’t tried one of his fan frets I don’t think but I’m sure it’d be good. I like the idea of a really short spread on the scale lengths. We’ve actually got a build coming up for a customer in the US with similar specs so it’ll be fascinating to see how that come out. Drop me an email if you’re interested in discussing a build. 🙏
That was an education. I always thought that fan frets were purely for ergonomic comfort. Makes total sense now that the string tension and how it affects the sound of the instrument is a major reason why they were developed. Thanks - this was illuminating 👍🏻
The fan fret configuration helps with 7 and 8 string guitars. Just as you pointed out, the lower strings benefit from this setup. I have two 8 string nylon string guitars. One has fan fret configuration, and the other standard fret configuration. The difference in play on the lower 7th and 8th strings is very noticeable.
Lenny breau used a seven string guitar with a high A. I think he had to bring the scale length down to 23 inches so the high A wouldn’t break. Fanned frets would have probably been good.
@@TomSandsGuitars So, you mentioned a humorously long neck to deal with bass strings, but that reminds me of the fact that the theorbo does indeed have a massive neck to reach some of those bass notes. This was done I think before there was steel winding of strings. It might also help the upper register, because I've noticed that gut strings can start to get a little weak sounding when they get too thin on the upper register of the lyre I made. I think the range of "sounds good" and string gauge is narrower with gut, hence why archlutes in the baroque era have wound strings. Plus, it's just not something seen before and I'm interested in developing innovations on instruments as I progress in my lutherie journey! :) Also... the lute family of instruments is so filled with variation and innovation that it would almost seem non-traditional to not add one's own ideas. I think my favorite period of instrument making is the period between 1400 and 1700, where there was just this tremendous development of so many different types of incredibly beautiful instruments, serving all sorts of unique purposes.
Great overview Tom - how does your approach to bracing and fret cutting differ for the fanned fret instruments ? Are you using a CNC for fanned fret positioning or hand cutting ? I am going to try this on an electric build next year for lower end tunings
Hi Pete, it try to keep the bracing as close to ‘natural’ as possible as not to disrupt my voicing philosophy too much. I cut the fret slots by hand using the stewmac fret calculator to work out the positions.
Instead of fanned frets (if you want to tune lower) can’t you just select thinner strings for the higher E etc? If the tension becomes tighter, wouldn’t a thinner string work?
I have a Lowden( sorry) fan fret. I am very comfortable with the ergonomics of the fret board maybe because I practice a lot but I felt good from the get go. The bass responses are great but I still have issues. I play almost exclusively in Dadgad on this guitar and the B string dropped to A still doesn’t quite cut it( still slightly floppy) I use medium strings and find it frustrating, I asked a luthier to fix it but still not quite right. I am a perfectionist about these things so maybe I am asking too much? Love your guitars, hope to be able to buy one at some point before I am too old to be on a long waiting list.
I have plans to build a fan fret electric. Do you have any views on which fret should be square to the strings? On yours it looks like maybe it is the seventh fret. What influenced your choice?
Great question, it very much depends on how wide the scale length spread is. With all my fan fret guitars I want to try and keep the bridge and by extension, the soundboard bracing as ‘natural’ as possible whilst not introducing too much of a fan in the frets at the first position making the neck uncomfortable. I’ve gone as high up as the 12th fret and as low as (I think) the 6th. I experimented by mocking up full scale templates to see which felt most comfortable.
I built a fan fret electric and my key considerations were that the fret angle becomes more extreme as you move the perpendicular fret closer to the nut (and vice versa). An exaggerated nut angle can lead to bigger 'stretch' when fingering chords. An exaggerated bridge angle can be harder to manufacture, and the picked tone varies more as you move from string to string (due to the changing distance to the bridge). In the end, with 25-1/2" to 24-3/4" scales, I tried to approximate the fret where my hand would naturally 'shift', due to where my elbow naturally hangs, and ended up at the 7th fret. You can see my guitar in action, on my channel. You can also see the complete build at the My Les Paul forum, by searching "Stephmon's first original-design build thread".
Fan Frets, and String Length have been a topic of experimentation for centuries. Here are some interesting resources and recordings that are surprising, to say the least. Reverse Headstock - UA-cam Video: "Luthier Builds - A 19th Century J.G. Stauffer/Legnani Model Romantic Guitar | Schramm Guitars" Does that headstock shape remind you of anything, Bigsby, Fender? Fan Frets - UA-cam video: "Holborne: Prelude (1596) played by Richard MacKenzie (Bandora)" Internaet article on the history: "Wired for sound: the bandora and orpharion" According to Edmund Howes’ 1631 revision of John Stow’s Annales, originally published in 1580, “In the fourth yere of Queen Elizabeth, John Rose, dwelling in Bridewell, devised and made an Instrument with wyer strings, commonly called the Bandora, and left a son, far excelling himself in making Bandoras, Vyoll de Gamboes, and other instruments.” Theorbo - The lengths they went to for getting good sounding low notes, an excellent example both visually an tonally in this UA-cam Video: "The rarest theorbo - Allegro by E. G. Baron played on the German Theorbo by Chris Hirst"
Use a heavier gauge string - just as you say - problem solved. "Messing about with the gauge of your string" is a much simpler intervention than fanning the frets. Indeed that's pretty much what sets like the D'Addario "True Mediums" do, which are optimised for DADGAD. Try the demo again, using beefier gauges for the standard scale guitars, depending on the degree of tuning down. I've had both types of guitar and ultimately concluded fan fretting is a fad. YMMV.
For a fixed pitch and string tension, a thick string on a short scale behaves very differently to a thinner stinger on a longer scale. The feel, playability intonation and musical presentation are very different, and the inherent inharmonicity of the string will be much higher on the shorter scale option. Personally I really like the latter (which I why I asked Tom to build me this beast), particularly with some of the more extreme tunings I use, but even with mediums tuned to D standard on this 27 - 28.25 scale length guitar, I really like how it speaks. So the “thicker strings for lower tunings” doesn’t always solve the problem (though I guess it depends on what you’re trying to solve). E.g. I have a “short scale” baritone - but the degree of saddle compensation for proper intonation is extreme (requires a whole new approach to bridge and saddle) and it sounds very different to a baritone with a more “normal” scale length. As Tom says, it’s all about trade offs. And also personal preferences - so definitely a case of YMMV. But then, as you know, I'm probably also guilty of faddishness ;)
Martin Carthy = D'Addario EJ18 (0.014 t0 0.059), with the 0.014 swapped to 0.017, tuned CGCDGA. Works well enough for international acclaim. And when he wants to stick standards on it EADGBE, no probs. Clearly, lots of ways to skin teh cat. Mine is less interventional, that's all.
The true enthusiasts for such instruments may become overheated watching this video. There is a cure and it will make the perfect stocking filler this Xmas: a fan-fret fan’s fan!
Is music art or sport ? All this shit is like sport development. Like all the instagram guitarists that are better than Steve via Ingvee and all the other virtuosos. Doesn’t mean the shit they play is good music. Adding more and more notes and using every technique known to man in every one of your songs doesn’t make it good to listen too. It’s becoming sport and sport sux.
No they are shhhhhhite. It is NOOOOT easier to play. Your hand won’t feel like “ah yes it fits the way my fingers spread apart” your hand will go “I can’t even span three frets to even make a chord. I own one and it’s the least played of my guitars. The dudes that love them also usually make shit un remarkable music.
So basically your issue with fan fret guitars is that you find them hard to play. Perhaps if you spent more time on your fundamentals and less time moaning on the internet, your little handies wouldn’t hurt so much. Go check out Leland Sklar, one of the most decorated session bass players in history. Guess what, fan fret player. 😘
Fascinating insight to a fan fret guitar. Thank you for the info, I’ll be watching a few more of your videos. Cheers
Thanks Rob 💙
Great video Tom and a subject close to my heart. Never quite understood why they haven't captured more hearts and minds of fingerstyle guitar players. I almost always play in alternate tunings often going as low as a B. Fan frets definitely sound sweeter for these lower tunings for all the reasons you highlighted. I guess some don't like the look of a Salvador Dali guitar with the frets melting off each end of the fingerboard. Still others think they are difficult to play or that playing one will disrupt your muscle memory when you switch back to a traditionally fretted guitar (neither is true). I love them. And honestly I was only thinking a few days ago "why doesn't Tom Sands make a fan fret"!
We’ve actually made a few, they’re always an interesting challenge. I’m always surprised how ‘transparent’ they feel, I’ve never had a problem noodling away!
Ralph Novak began talking about the concepts behind fan fret guitars about 35 years ago, and one of my takeaways from my conversations with him was the better intonation available for lowered tunings given the string gauges you intend to use. For example, DADGAD tuning with a set of strings like D'Addario EJ24 true mediums (.013, .017, .024, .032, .042, .056; basically a set of light gauge strings with medium gauges for the lowered strings) can make setting the saddle intonation in the correct place difficult on a 25" or 25.4" scale guitar, and some strings may be less in tune as you get up the fretboard. I've found even a small fan, such as 24.9" - 25.4" can make a big difference in how well the guitar plays in tune, especially chords in higher positions on the neck that include an open string in tunings like DADGAD.
This is a great explanation. I have a 7 string bass guitar with 35"-33.5" fanned frets and play it in the regular B,E,A,D,G,C,F tuning. I enjoy the more even feel of the sting tensions being closer together giving the best of both scales. The other thing is it puts the elbow pivot and hand at a better disposition to access the frets because they are pointed towards the elbow- so you don't have to move your arm around as much. Upper fret access is a little easier.
Oooh nice, who made it?
@@TomSandsGuitars This is a Fodera I bought used online. There's also a new workshop model Ibanez has just released very similar to mine called the BTB7MS- I've already preordered one of those : )
Just outstanding. Thanks!
Thank you very much
I enjoyed the demo by Henry and found it helpful. I can definitely hear/see him playing differently with each guitar. The unanswered question for me is "does a fan fret design make sense for smaller guitars?" - such as a Model S? I have a fan fret Baritone (Italy's David Serracini) and I love the comfort and tone. My Sand Model M is NOT fan fret but it seems to handle lower tunings perfectly.
Thanks, John
Gig Harbor, WA
Hi John, a fan fret would be a good idea on a smaller guitar if you were planning on keeping it in lowered tunings. It really depends what you expect from a guitar and where you expect it to perform best. Glad the M is doing it for you!
Basically necessary for 7 string acoustics. I have a fanned fret by Michael Kennedy that was built around CGCGCD tuning, using a 13 gauge set and swapping out the low string with a .059. Sounds great and I'm occasionally tempted to order a "light" baritone tuned B-b down the road if I can figure out a light set, scale length, and less "overbuilt".
Mike is a great builder! It’s always a bit of a headache trying to work out what will translate from theory into practise.
Thanks for the vid! Enjoy your channel.
Thanks for watching, very much appreciated!
I had a fan fret baritone which sounded great in lowered tunings. But it was deep and heavy and I found it ergonomically difficult. I now have a good compromise. A straight fretted 25.3” scale guitar with heavy gauge strings and tuned D to D. I can easily lower the low D to C or put it into a DADGAD equivalent but C to C. Pop a capo on the 2nd fret and it becomes a short scale std guitar. It’s working well for me.
But, I’d love to try one of those Taran fan fret 25” to 25.5”. I’ll think about getting one from Tom. Might possibly be affordable.
Rory makes great guitars. I haven’t tried one of his fan frets I don’t think but I’m sure it’d be good. I like the idea of a really short spread on the scale lengths. We’ve actually got a build coming up for a customer in the US with similar specs so it’ll be fascinating to see how that come out.
Drop me an email if you’re interested in discussing a build. 🙏
That was an education. I always thought that fan frets were purely for ergonomic comfort. Makes total sense now that the string tension and how it affects the sound of the instrument is a major reason why they were developed. Thanks - this was illuminating 👍🏻
Glad it was helpful!!!
No they are the opposite of comfort. They suck. Dont waste money on them.
@@jeremybradley559 I’m sensing you’ve been hurt by a fan fret guitar in the past.
The fan fret configuration helps with 7 and 8 string guitars. Just as you pointed out, the lower strings benefit from this setup. I have two 8 string nylon string guitars. One has fan fret configuration, and the other standard fret configuration. The difference in play on the lower 7th and 8th strings is very noticeable.
Would love to compare and contrast these guitars
Lenny breau used a seven string guitar with a high A. I think he had to bring the scale length down to 23 inches so the high A wouldn’t break. Fanned frets would have probably been good.
@@hughmanatee7433 woah 23!
Oh man the back and forth was rad on the audio!
Yeah was a really fun comparison
I've been thinking of making lutes... this could be a way to innovate on the old lute designs and keep gut strings.
What do you see as the problem currently?
@@TomSandsGuitars So, you mentioned a humorously long neck to deal with bass strings, but that reminds me of the fact that the theorbo does indeed have a massive neck to reach some of those bass notes. This was done I think before there was steel winding of strings.
It might also help the upper register, because I've noticed that gut strings can start to get a little weak sounding when they get too thin on the upper register of the lyre I made.
I think the range of "sounds good" and string gauge is narrower with gut, hence why archlutes in the baroque era have wound strings.
Plus, it's just not something seen before and I'm interested in developing innovations on instruments as I progress in my lutherie journey! :)
Also... the lute family of instruments is so filled with variation and innovation that it would almost seem non-traditional to not add one's own ideas.
I think my favorite period of instrument making is the period between 1400 and 1700, where there was just this tremendous development of so many different types of incredibly beautiful instruments, serving all sorts of unique purposes.
Great overview Tom - how does your approach to bracing and fret cutting differ for the fanned fret instruments ? Are you using a CNC for fanned fret positioning or hand cutting ? I am going to try this on an electric build next year for lower end tunings
Hi Pete, it try to keep the bracing as close to ‘natural’ as possible as not to disrupt my voicing philosophy too much. I cut the fret slots by hand using the stewmac fret calculator to work out the positions.
Instead of fanned frets (if you want to tune lower) can’t you just select thinner strings for the higher E etc? If the tension becomes tighter, wouldn’t a thinner string work?
You could experiment with strings gauges for sure, it’s a trade off of feel and intonation
I have a Lowden( sorry) fan fret. I am very comfortable with the ergonomics of the fret board maybe because I practice a lot but I felt good from the get go. The bass responses are great but I still have issues. I play almost exclusively in Dadgad on this guitar and the B string dropped to A still doesn’t quite cut it( still slightly floppy) I use medium strings and find it frustrating, I asked a luthier to fix it but still not quite right. I am a perfectionist about these things so maybe I am asking too much? Love your guitars, hope to be able to buy one at some point before I am too old to be on a long waiting list.
The only answer is a TS!
I have plans to build a fan fret electric. Do you have any views on which fret should be square to the strings? On yours it looks like maybe it is the seventh fret. What influenced your choice?
Great question, it very much depends on how wide the scale length spread is. With all my fan fret guitars I want to try and keep the bridge and by extension, the soundboard bracing as ‘natural’ as possible whilst not introducing too much of a fan in the frets at the first position making the neck uncomfortable. I’ve gone as high up as the 12th fret and as low as (I think) the 6th. I experimented by mocking up full scale templates to see which felt most comfortable.
I built a fan fret electric and my key considerations were that the fret angle becomes more extreme as you move the perpendicular fret closer to the nut (and vice versa). An exaggerated nut angle can lead to bigger 'stretch' when fingering chords. An exaggerated bridge angle can be harder to manufacture, and the picked tone varies more as you move from string to string (due to the changing distance to the bridge). In the end, with 25-1/2" to 24-3/4" scales, I tried to approximate the fret where my hand would naturally 'shift', due to where my elbow naturally hangs, and ended up at the 7th fret. You can see my guitar in action, on my channel. You can also see the complete build at the My Les Paul forum, by searching "Stephmon's first original-design build thread".
A quick question.... Are there benefits to having a fan-fret guitar playing mostly in standard tuning?
I wouldn’t advise it.
Thanks @@TomSandsGuitars
Any builds started with the Bois De Rose?
Not yet but they’re on the books!
Fan Frets, and String Length have been a topic of experimentation for centuries. Here are some interesting resources and recordings that are surprising, to say the least.
Reverse Headstock - UA-cam Video: "Luthier Builds - A 19th Century J.G. Stauffer/Legnani Model Romantic Guitar | Schramm Guitars"
Does that headstock shape remind you of anything, Bigsby, Fender?
Fan Frets - UA-cam video: "Holborne: Prelude (1596) played by Richard MacKenzie (Bandora)"
Internaet article on the history: "Wired for sound: the bandora and orpharion"
According to Edmund Howes’ 1631 revision of John Stow’s Annales, originally published in 1580, “In the fourth yere of Queen Elizabeth, John Rose, dwelling in Bridewell, devised and made an Instrument with wyer strings, commonly called the Bandora, and left a son, far excelling himself in making Bandoras, Vyoll de Gamboes, and other instruments.”
Theorbo - The lengths they went to for getting good sounding low notes, an excellent example both visually an tonally in this UA-cam Video:
"The rarest theorbo - Allegro by E. G. Baron played on the German Theorbo by Chris Hirst"
Thanks for these, super interesting topic.
Use a heavier gauge string - just as you say - problem solved. "Messing about with the gauge of your string" is a much simpler intervention than fanning the frets. Indeed that's pretty much what sets like the D'Addario "True Mediums" do, which are optimised for DADGAD. Try the demo again, using beefier gauges for the standard scale guitars, depending on the degree of tuning down. I've had both types of guitar and ultimately concluded fan fretting is a fad. YMMV.
Not everyone like beef flavoured strings Steve. The vegans would have a field day if I advocated for this approach.
For a fixed pitch and string tension, a thick string on a short scale behaves very differently to a thinner stinger on a longer scale. The feel, playability intonation and musical presentation are very different, and the inherent inharmonicity of the string will be much higher on the shorter scale option. Personally I really like the latter (which I why I asked Tom to build me this beast), particularly with some of the more extreme tunings I use, but even with mediums tuned to D standard on this 27 - 28.25 scale length guitar, I really like how it speaks.
So the “thicker strings for lower tunings” doesn’t always solve the problem (though I guess it depends on what you’re trying to solve). E.g. I have a “short scale” baritone - but the degree of saddle compensation for proper intonation is extreme (requires a whole new approach to bridge and saddle) and it sounds very different to a baritone with a more “normal” scale length. As Tom says, it’s all about trade offs. And also personal preferences - so definitely a case of YMMV. But then, as you know, I'm probably also guilty of faddishness ;)
@@DanBurne what Dan said 👆
Martin Carthy = D'Addario EJ18 (0.014 t0 0.059), with the 0.014 swapped to 0.017, tuned CGCDGA. Works well enough for international acclaim. And when he wants to stick standards on it EADGBE, no probs. Clearly, lots of ways to skin teh cat. Mine is less interventional, that's all.
@@sobellfanatic yeah but that leaves no room for being a massive nerd about the minutia. YOUR SOLUTION IS TOO SIMPLE STEVE.
It just seems that this ought to be standard throughout the industry. Laziness and/or greed for (most) acoustic guitars not to be...
How about comfort?
Fan frets make perfect sense......most of us can't afford one offs so the ordinary guitars we buy are a compromise because they're made in factories.
The true enthusiasts for such instruments may become overheated watching this video. There is a cure and it will make the perfect stocking filler this Xmas: a fan-fret fan’s fan!
🤣
Alright Tom. Now you need to build one with microtonal fan frets just to see if a genie comes out of a bottle and makes the angels sing.
🤣
Is that a fan fret guitar?
It’s a microwave oven
So if you aren't using alt tunings... fan fret is essentially useless on 6 string acoustics :/ ?
I wouldn’t recommend it as it would put the lower strings under quite a bit more tension than the strings are designed for.
Will order McDonald's after this. I am hungry.
Get me some nuggets would ya
I am a ukulele (very very short)
🤣
there is no secret, you either like it or dont.
A philosophy to live by.
Is music art or sport ? All this shit is like sport development. Like all the instagram guitarists that are better than Steve via Ingvee and all the other virtuosos. Doesn’t mean the shit they play is good music. Adding more and more notes and using every technique known to man in every one of your songs doesn’t make it good to listen too. It’s becoming sport and sport sux.
Your comment sux. The video is about scale lengths, tone and playability. 👍
No they are shhhhhhite. It is NOOOOT easier to play. Your hand won’t feel like “ah yes it fits the way my fingers spread apart” your hand will go “I can’t even span three frets to even make a chord. I own one and it’s the least played of my guitars. The dudes that love them also usually make shit un remarkable music.
So basically your issue with fan fret guitars is that you find them hard to play. Perhaps if you spent more time on your fundamentals and less time moaning on the internet, your little handies wouldn’t hurt so much.
Go check out Leland Sklar, one of the most decorated session bass players in history. Guess what, fan fret player. 😘