@Dogno94 why would that change anything? You pay for offspring as part of the casting cost anyways. The creature gains offspring before being put on the stack then is copied on the stack with offspring. You're gonna have to show me a ruling on why those 2 scenarios would be different.
@@OnlyLands-MTG i found this two on another youtube videos 613.1a: Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify COPIABLE values are applied. 613.1f: Layer 6: ABILITY-ADDING effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied. Zinnia ADDS Offspring to the spell you CAST in Layer 6. That creature will still have Offspring when it enters thanks to rule 400.7b. The copy copies the COPIABLE values of the spell in Layer 1. Since the spell does NOT have Offspring in Layer 1, the copy doesn't have it either. Thus, when the copy enters, it doesn't have Offspring and doesn't trigger. The CR was just updated to explain that offspring is two abilities. 702.175a Offspring represents two abilities. “Offspring [cost]” means “You may pay an additional [cost] as you cast this spell” and “When this permanent enters, if its offspring cost was paid, create a token that’s a copy of it, except it’s 1/1.” A copy of the spell on the stack sees only the first part: 707.2 "for an object on the stack, choices made when casting" are copied. Offspring 2 was chosen to be paid is seen by the copies. When the copy enters it doesn't know what to do with Offspring 2 because the second ability didn't have the choice in it.
@@OnlyLands-MTG i found two this on another video's comments: 613.1a: Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify COPIABLE values are applied. 613.1f: Layer 6: ABILITY-ADDING effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied. Zinnia ADDS Offspring to the spell you CAST in Layer 6. That creature will still have Offspring when it enters thanks to rule 400.7b. The copy copies the COPIABLE values of the spell in Layer 1. Since the spell does NOT have Offspring in Layer 1, the copy doesn't have it either. Thus, when the copy enters, it doesn't have Offspring and doesn't trigger. The CR was just updated to explain that offspring is two abilities. 702.175a Offspring represents two abilities. “Offspring [cost]” means “You may pay an additional [cost] as you cast this spell” and “When this permanent enters, if its offspring cost was paid, create a token that’s a copy of it, except it’s 1/1.” A copy of the spell on the stack sees only the first part: 707.2 "for an object on the stack, choices made when casting" are copied. Offspring 2 was chosen to be paid is seen by the copies. When the copy enters it doesn't know what to do with Offspring 2 because the second ability didn't have the choice in it.
@Dogno94 wow that's crazy. I admit layers are still one of the few rules I struggle to fully grasp thank you so much for finding and sharing this. I will pin your comment hopefully others will see it too!
@@Dogno94 Ain't both Silverquill and Zinnia adding the ability both via 613.1f layer 6 ? Silverquill adds DEMONSTRATE, Zinnia adds Offspring. First is an on-cast trigger, second an additional cost for an ETB trigger. I fail to understand how this is a nonbo, but layers are really the esoteric part of magic for me. Feels strange that other channels and media are suggesting Silverquill. Including Card Kingdom, TCGplayer ... EDIT: I've submitted a request in a Judge youtuber's inbox, hope he covers it soon (does a daily video). (Either to confirm it either way, with a more comprehensible explanation).
I love you. I was stucked with Zinnia thinking I had to inevitably for the blinking route or buy super expensive card to ramp, be it dockisde or similar... but this... the artifact way... I get it now. I have to abandon my flesh shell and embrace the metallic family of inanimate offsprings
I love the idea of using artifacts with Zinnia! Another way you could reduce the offspring cost is with things that reduce the cost of creatures with flying (Warden or Evos Isle and Watcher of the Sphere's). Though there aren't as many options as artifacts, these two reduce the cost of Zinnia as well.
This is a really cool direction to to take Zinnia, I don't think I've seen anyone build her with this theme of cost reducers and artifacts. You mainly see people building her as a ETB and/or flicker deck which is a bit boring, so it's nice to see an original build of her 👍 Also do you take suggestions for commanders to build around in future videos?
haha thanks I really like this one too! You can always suggest cool commanders but no promises I'll do a video. If I like the commander a lot then you might get lucky :)
@@OnlyLands-MTG Ah okay. I wanted to suggest either Glarb, calamity's augur or Gev, Scaled scorch. I think Gev is pretty underrated, going with lizard tribal is not the way to go but instead building him as goblin tribal would be a neat idea as you could put in impact tremor effects to buff up a wide board of goblin tokens, on top of that Gev combos with creatures with persist and any sac outlet. Which there are two goblins with persist (Murderous Redcap & Putrid Goblin) which you can tutor with goblin matron.
@BIGBOY1996-pu5wz I have a Gev list that I was already planning to do as my next video hahaha. It's not Goblin tribal but it's pretty cool I think you'll like it :)
@@BIGBOY1996-pu5wzI love the idea of Gev! My favourite commander is Ob Nixilis Captive Kingpin, I was so excited to see Gev it allows me to continue the trail of ping commanders like Ghyerson, Nekusar and Ob. I'll definitely have to look into this idea of Gev as a goblin deck 😊
I had this idea in my head! All the cost-reducers, then cast for free w/ offspring to shoot off copies of Scrap Trawlers and such. Cool to see somebody make it.
Wow, this is indeed a very inspiring build for Zinnia. I just bought the precon and upgraded it a bit. But like you said, I feel it's more mana hungry than my current list can provide. Also, it feels a bit generic (make more creatures that do ETB things). This, combined with me still wanting to have an artifact-based deck (but not one of the obvious ones), makes me really happy with your deck idea and I'm gonna change my deck right away. Thanks a lot!
Pretty interesting take! Zinnia is the Bloomburrow commander that most interested me. I hope you make a deck for my boy Gev, please don't shy away from it's combo potential!
@josebarrera6104 you're in luck I do have a Gev deck coming next! It is not a combo deck though, the persist combo stuff isn't really interesting to me anymore 😕 just kinda been there done that but I am sure you'll like the list! And you could definitely slot in a few persist creatures to the list if you want to go the combo route!
I'm digging the build. I'm half tempted to gut my Cayth, famed mechanist deck to build it. Two cards I might suggest to add would be song of the worldsoul and nesting dovehawk. Worldsoul is functionally another panharmonicon style effect but instead of making a token of what you're currently casting, it copies your best on board. It might be too slow given it's 6 mana or it might be too reliant on board state as it needs a token in play to be viable but if it sticks, it's potent. Dovehawk is a must answer threat with zinnia as it can singlehandedly run away with the table if not dealt with
@jots083 both super powerful cards thay I definitely think you could make work. Dovehawk I agree is nasty work with Zinnia. It's just really hard to fit them into an artifact deck we need to keep our artifact count high and I'm already pushing it with the non artifacts in this list.
Very original way to build Zinnia ... the mana hungry cost of offpsring surely caps this commander potential. I'm skeptic on the Silverquill combo/nonbo (layers ain't my expertise) but nonetheless, this decklist is fire. Stoneforge mystic searching for skullclamp or Reaver Cleaver ... on Zinnia. OH HOW COULD I'VE MISSED THIS. THE CLEAVING in the air...
@jjcc8379 yeah I pinned a comment explaining it the silverquil sadly doesn't work layers are weird hahaha. Planning on releasing a short explaining it soon.
@@OnlyLands-MTG Yeah, I'm definitely curious about how it works. Another thing I really appreciate of this deck: I discovered so many doctor Who cards, a set which I glossed over (a bit fed up with so many magic releases at the time).
Hahaha I love it! Modular is one of my favorite mechanics! My signature deck is actually a modular deck. Once I get to 1000 subs I'll do a deck tech on it :)
@jQuartz85 she was in the list at one point she definitely has potential! I decided against her because 1. she is legendary so you can't offspring her 2. we don't have reliable ways to buff her outside of her own ability 3. She herself is not an artifact and we already have quite a few non artifact creatures in the list. I definitely think there are ways to make her work with a few tweaks though!
You had me at artifacts man. Might I suggest Osgir as our "alternate" commander? Since Zinia gets big and your board gets big having an alternate plan if Zinia gets too high to cast and your board getting wiped sets your plan back a lot. That's where Osgir comes in and reanimates some of your creatures from the grave. Also, can someone explain the demonstrate interaction with offspring to me? I'm too small head to understand it.
@somerando6215 osgir is a great suggestion! I want to make sure to keep my artifact count high so would probably want to cut a non artifact for him. So since offspring is an additional cost to cast if you pay for it that creature spell will create an offspring when it resolves. Since demonstrate copies the spell on the stack it will copy the fact that offspring was paid for as well. So when the demonstrate copies resolve they will also produce offspring.
This is great, but I'm totally gonna modify it to include noncreature tax effects, like Glowrider, to slow down any opponents not as committed to a creature strategy as I am.
5:45 A note on double demonstrating, you mentioned that the ratio gets worse if you copy it twice, but this is only true if you give both copies to the same opponent. In a multiplayer game, it's quite simple for you to end up with 6 copies, and two different opponents to only get 2 copies, making the ratio much more strongly in your favor.
I don’t get why nobody has come up with this but me, yet I haven’t seen a single person do this. Replace your rocks, you don’t need rocks. You need mana dorks! There are 7 myrs who tap for mana. That alone ups your possible offspring targets, while increasing your mana. If you combine that with an artifact cost reducer and cards like tribute mage and trophy mage, you can always get access to the exact myr needed. It’s so versatile.
This is a great suggestion, I think I still prefer the rocks just so we aren't as weak to board wipes and without haste mana dorks are definitely slower than the rocks but they definitely have more upside. I typically prefer my mana resources to have a higher floor even if it means the have a lower ceiling but I totally would not fault you for preferring dorks here :)
@@OnlyLands-MTG all in on theme is my idea. It’s more fun to build a deck around a mechanic even if it presents some restrictions because it can enable some silliness others won’t expect. Everything dies to removal anyways, so yeah, one board wipe could hit them, but they are immune to certain other board wipes.
@@ednamsgiraffe I'm with you except when it comes to my mana hahaha. I need to be able to rebuild after a wipe that will already be devastating but like I said I don't fault you for going balls to the wall!
You can have your cake and eat it too if you use catch up ramp creatures with some bounce lands and maybe a lotus field. Then you'll be more resilient to a wider range of board wipes
@justwantawholename yeah definitely true but you don't get to play mana rocks for 0 to net mana with your cost reducers ;) def a more resilient strat though!
I really feel like the Deepest Foundation White Ixalan God will go crazy in this deck. Triple tokens, if it dies, just flip it to a land, and the flip requirement is 3 mana and attack with 3 creatures.
@Foro-jz9bu a 6 mana creature that you need to untap with that can't be reduced by our cost reducers is tough but I agree if you can untap with it then you should just win the game hahaha!
You could pay the extra 2 to offspring her. The token enters and choose to sacrifice the non token copy, it comes back as a land available for use right away, and then you still have the token version creating 3 tokens each time. It’s goofy, but kinda funny.
Got a few questions. I already obtained most of the cards for the deck save for the expensive lands. I was wondering what is the purpose of Simulacrum Synthesizer and stoneforge mystic? Will I be losing out since I don't have the shadowspear for stoneforge mystic? Also what is the best target for Urza's Saga when it resolves when there are only a handful of artifacts with 1 cost?
Simulacrum Synthesizer is just an army in a bottle card. When our commander is making additional copies of our 3 mana artifacts it just spits out tons of giant bodies and when those triggers are being doubled by panharmonicon you can see it just gets out of hand. Is it completely necessary for the deck to function? No. Does its just give you a literal buttload of giant constructs? Yes. It is also a great target to find with goblin engineer when doing your cursed mirror shenanigans. Stoneforge is capable of finding primarily skullclamp. When you are making 1/1 copies of your creatures skullclamp just draws you tons of cards. It can also find shadowspear which is just a really solid utility piece being able to remove hexproof and indestructible from opponents creatures and having at least 1 way to gain a ton of life is always nice to have in the deck. Is it necessary again no. Stoneforge can also get swiftfoot boots which is always nice and The Reality Chip which with all the cost reducers can draw you ton of cards. I think stoneforge is still worth it even without shadowspear but if you dont have the shadowspear i would maybe look for another lifelink enabler just to have that big lifegain option. Urza's saga is usually getting sol ring or skullclamp and I consider it worth it in pretty much any deck that plays both of those. Gets better when you have shadowspear too but again isn't necessary.
This is deffo a fun idea for a deck. In actual gameplay though, does it hold up, compared to others like Urza, Chief Artificer, and Breya? Not asking cEDH wise (I am not spending that much money on a deck), but for regular, 6-7 power or so level tables.
Yeah I decided I preferred the panharmonicon effects over the token doublers and didn't think I had room for both but those cards are undeniably powerful.
@MVMNTCam it can effectively do both! Since you calculate the cost with MV + additional costs - reductions if you have 6 cost reducers in play you can play a solemn with offspring for free!
@@OnlyLands-MTG Yeah, my current Hofri deck combines regular EtB creatures with a hefty amount of artifact creatures, many token generators like your Zinnia here, so it might as well become a Zinnia deck. Potential combos are like: Yosei, the Morning Star, enters with offspring, sac the offspring to shut down an opponent. Better if I have Cloudstone Curio in play to bounce Yosei back to hand. If every card is turned into artifact, it can come back out for near free.
I like chaos warp more I consider it a better card. Shuffling into the library is a much better form of removal in casual commander where there aren't too many tutors. Destroy is much less reliable form of removal, it can't hit indestructible and almost all decks have some way to get cards, especially permanent cards, from the graveyard. Yes there is a risk with them flipping something off the top of their library but I only use Chaos Warp on something that really needs to be gone. Also if you look at the average breakdown of a deck the likelihood of someone flipping a land/mana rock/instant/sorcery is pretty high in which case the downside is even lower than giving them a 3/3. I used to think Chaos Warp was a terrible removal spell but I have changed my thoughts on it I think its one of the best out now answers anything permanently!
@stephenwozab2640 yes they do! But they will only work on those respective colors so if you wanted to focuse on only 1 or 2 of those color creatures they would be great! This list also have a lot of colorless creatures so I didn't think they were worth it since I can't offspring the medallions themselves and they only reduce costs on ~ 1/4 of our creatures each but you could definitely brew a version that makes good use of them :)
@sweetpotato_7353 the medallions work well too! If you wanted to really lean into 1 or 2 colors then a medallion could put in a lot of work! I put up the ruling early on in the video if you want to pause and read it should explain it :)
i like song of the worldsoul and using low cost creatures that spawn tokens on etb then have creatures or impact tremors ping for each creature entering the battlefield.
@infernalspawn9662 I mean you can, it just isn't worth it or necessary. There are cheaper ways to make more copies of our important tokens already in the list like oltec matterweaver :)
@infernalspawn9662 it is cool and you should build however you want that's what makes commander awesome! Just because I don't think it's worth it doesn't mean it isn't cool!!!
@Onisamurai92 I'm trynna work on it but I don't build most do these decks in paper. I could get some cockatrice gameplay pretty easily but if you want paper games it will have to be for decks I actually own.
I think Arabella would be awesome! Not convinced Dollmaker's shop is worth it though its hard to find room for enchantments and it just makes 1/1 tokens with no abilities and then the Porcelain Gallery will actually Nerf your Zinnia. I do think you could probably find room for the Jolly Balloon Man though getting more ETB value and making 1/1s is pretty sweet!
Probably im wrong but i don't understand why you should get 2 copys from a Panharmonicon effect, when offspring is a cast trigger.. @3:55 I think when you cast the Thought Monitor you get one additional copy and draw 8 cards
Yeah you pay for Offspring as part of the cast but it gives the creature an ETB. The ruling is 702.175a Offspring represents two abilities. “Offspring [cost]” means “You may pay an additional [cost] as you cast this spell” and “When this permanent enters, if its offspring cost was paid, create a token that’s a copy of it, except it’s 1/1.” the fact it says "when this permanent enters" means it gives the creature an ETB and therefore will double trigger with panharmonicon effects.
There is a moxfield link in the description! but just warning you I did not make this a with the intention of being a precon upgrade. It is a completely different list built around Zinnia from scratch!
@nathanpaige9073 this isn't a precon upgrade you're gonna have to figure that out for yourself mate. I didn't even look at the precon when building this list its completely different. Sorry :/
If I use panharmonicon to double the offspring effect. Do I have to pay for the offspring twice? Or do I pay for it once and then it doubles? Great video btw! Crazy ideas! Gonna pick up some of these cards for sure☺️
You only have to pay once because you pay as part of the casting cost! Then it will trigger when it enters and panharmonicon will cause it to trigger again!
@@OnlyLands-MTG damn! I thought it was crazy even if you had to pay another 2! It’s even more crazy than I thought!🤣 Thankyou bro☺️ -I tried the base precon out for the first time the other day. The rose room treasurer also works to basically make offspring free☺️ if you offspring him, you get 2 treasure per creature entering. Twice per turn. So basically cast a card plus offspring and then get 4 mana back! It was insane! Carried me the full game
I found it difficult to fit it since we need to keep our artifact count high. I decided to play the panharmonicon effects instead, they essentially work as offspring doublers as well but also do more fore the deck when you don't have zinnia around. Anointed procession would definitely be a powerful include though if you have one laying around and think you can fit it I definitely encourage you to try it out!
@@EmmanuelLockwood-p3x hahaha appreciate it I have only been at it for 6 months or so and only really have time to upload 1 video a week. Its growing slowly but steadily :) but I appreciate the support!
@@OnlyLands-MTG I wish I saw your video prior to going on an ordering spree. I just bought other cards with some expensive ones like Ojer Taq and Mondrak along with Annointed Procession. Heck I opened my Family Matters today and it is missing that one Plumecreed card but luckily I got a mockingbird to fill in while I wait for my cards. This deck kinda sorta reminds me of those affinity to artifact decks back in the days of Darksteel/Mirrodin/Fifth Dawn.
Im confused in demonstrate and offspring. If I cast creature and offspring it. I will get 3 creatures. 1 that I cast. 1 that I offspring. 1 for the demonstrate copy. And 1 for the opponent. Am I correct??
No you will get 4 creatures and your opponent will get 2. Since you pay for offspring as part of the casting cost that creature is now considered "offspringed" on the stack. Since demonstrate copies the spell on the stack the copies of that spell made by demonstrate will also be "offspringed". So your opponent will have 1 copy on the stack and when it resolves they will get their 1 copy and then their offspring. You will have 2 copies on the stack and they will both produce offspring when they resolve. So you get 4 and your opponent gets 2.
Oww. So If I cast and I offspringed it. While it's on the stack the demonstrate will triggers and I can copy the 2 creature. So I will have 4 and since I use my demonstrate twice my opponent will also have 2 copy. Am I correct? 😁🫡 Thank you
@@daryltulana8231 no you get 4 and your opponent gets 2 when you demonstrate once. If you offspring your lecturer and demonstrate twice then your opponent will get 2 copies that each offspring so 4 copies (but you can split them up. You will get 3 copies on the stack that will all resolve and generate offspring so you get 6 copies.
I need help, I went with this strat and my play group keeps making me pay for the off spring cost even though I have mana cost reducers out. They say Zinnia is not an artifact therefore her off spring trigger still needs to be paid....
Tell them that Zinnia gives offspring too the creature its not Zinnia's ability. Try showing them the ruling that I show in the beginning of this video. Your friends are wrong. If they still don't believe you just google Zinnia and cost reducers hopefully something should show up.
@@OnlyLands-MTG being the newest player in the group it’s very easy for them to want to dismiss what I’m trying to say. Thank you for the tips for how to bring it up next week. I figured once I had those artifact reducers as long as the creature is an artifact creature that I’m offspring, I will get those reductions. I think I was just confusing them how I was explaining it.
Spoke with a level one judge at my LGS. They also told me you cannot reduce the mana cost of offspring. The closest you get is reducing the cost of artifact creatures by two which is the cost of off spring so, in a way its like you are not having to pay, but you are. I am new and this has caused a lot of confusion so I wanted to share so you can hopefully update how you explain it. Offspring is being paid, but by reducing the overall cost of casting you artifact by two, it is as if you didn't have to pay for the offspring. :) Thanks again for the fun deck idea, its been a blast to play!
Also, I did try to refer to the video and rules. The guy referred to kicker cost and offspring and how those are not reduced in addition to the cost of the spell to cast. Also if you still think it's another way I would love to hear it! Please let me know which part of the rule you are referring too and why so I can explain it that way. No worries if you don't want to, Im just trying to understand. :) I read through all of 601-602 but couldn't find any part that talked about reducing etb triggers.
No you would need to give multiple instances of offspring to the creatures. Each instance of offspring can only be paid for once. Its Kicker non Multikicker. If you copied Zinnia herself then you could do some nutty things like that but it won't be infinite.
@@idontcarewhatname123 I mean this is much more optimized than the precon but its still definitely casual. There are no infinite combos or fast mana but the deck is definitely capable of dealing TONS of damage pretty quickly if left unchecked. I would call it a 7 but every groups definition of a 7 is different.
I put the rule in the video. Costs are determined by Base mana value + additional costs (offspring) then - reductions to costs. This means cost reducers can help pay for additional costs including kicker, buyback, and offspring
@XxRayxX210 demonstrate and panharmonicon don't affect each other. Panharmonicon and offspring affect each other. I thought offspring and demonstrate affected each other too but if you read the pinned comment I was actually wrong about this. Magic is hard hahahs
Yes, but you said Etherium Sculpture and the copy can pay for all the offspring costs. How can it reduce the the costs of offspring is not a an artifact spell?
@@ChupacabraChito I figured it was understood that it was only for the artifact creatures. But that is most of the creatures in the list. That's the point of building Zinnia as an artifact deck is that you get to take advantage of these cost reducers.
I love this twist on zinnia, But I’ve been straying away from all of these copy token makers. The new saheeli, shaun, satya, tawnos, etc… it’s a nightmare to have different named tokens that are copies… you need like a million inifnitokens
@vileluca it's a powerful card and it's an artifact token deck at the end of the day if you don't like playing with the card don't use it. 1 card doesn't make the deck :)
Being an edge lord and ignoring an exceptionally powerful card that helps you actually afford the potential excessive mana costs in this deck isn’t a flex brother.
@worldmedic3187 no offspring is an additional cost to cast which then results in a triggered ability. It is not an activated ability. An activated ability will always be something you pay to activate on a permanent on the battlefield and will be notated with a "cost : effect" if you don't see that templating it is not an activated ability.
@worldmedic3187 cycling is an activated ability you are correct but offspring is not, it's much closer to kicker. So what I said earlier about activated abilities needing to be on permanents was wrong they can be on cards in hand as well. However training grounds specifies "creatures you control" which only refers to creatures on your battlefield so training grounds does not work with cycling either. "Control" is defined by being on your battlefield otherwise it would say "creatures you own" and more specifically if it is talking about creatures in hand it would say "creatures cards".
you're allowed to change a list. I brew with optimized land bases and without budget constraints for the power level I enjoy playing. I expect people to be able to change things to fit their budget and power level. I share cool ideas I have. The idea should carry over even if you can't afford the list exactly as is. www.archidekt.com/decks/8680135/200_zinnias_robot_babies Here is a cheaper one, I made this because this list was so popular but in general the hope is you are able to make those decisions yourself.
Aha another brewer who didn't mention "whenever you cast" and how vague it is to our benefits. My decks always ready to cast creatures from exile, GY and hand 🎉
@Elgranmentor1 I don't brew with budget in consideration just power level. I brew these lists as something to build towards. They are usually pretty easy to cut a few expensive cards and change the land base to bring the budget way down. If enough people ask me I make the budget version myself so always feel free to ask or if you want some practice brewing use the "tag" function on moxfield to see the categories I break the cards down by and just cut the cards that are out of your budget for cards that fill the same roll :)
with silverquill u cant copy the offspring ability if its given by Zinnia but only if the card have her own Offspring ability.
@Dogno94 why would that change anything? You pay for offspring as part of the casting cost anyways. The creature gains offspring before being put on the stack then is copied on the stack with offspring. You're gonna have to show me a ruling on why those 2 scenarios would be different.
@@OnlyLands-MTG i found this two on another youtube videos
613.1a: Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify COPIABLE values are applied.
613.1f: Layer 6: ABILITY-ADDING effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.
Zinnia ADDS Offspring to the spell you CAST in Layer 6. That creature will still have Offspring when it enters thanks to rule 400.7b.
The copy copies the COPIABLE values of the spell in Layer 1. Since the spell does NOT have Offspring in Layer 1, the copy doesn't have it either. Thus, when the copy enters, it doesn't have Offspring and doesn't trigger.
The CR was just updated to explain that offspring is two abilities.
702.175a Offspring represents two abilities. “Offspring [cost]” means “You may pay an additional [cost] as you cast this spell” and “When this permanent enters, if its offspring cost was paid, create a token that’s a copy of it, except it’s 1/1.”
A copy of the spell on the stack sees only the first part:
707.2 "for an object on the stack, choices made when casting" are copied.
Offspring 2 was chosen to be paid is seen by the copies.
When the copy enters it doesn't know what to do with Offspring 2 because the second ability didn't have the choice in it.
@@OnlyLands-MTG i found two this on another video's comments:
613.1a: Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify COPIABLE values are applied.
613.1f: Layer 6: ABILITY-ADDING effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.
Zinnia ADDS Offspring to the spell you CAST in Layer 6. That creature will still have Offspring when it enters thanks to rule 400.7b.
The copy copies the COPIABLE values of the spell in Layer 1. Since the spell does NOT have Offspring in Layer 1, the copy doesn't have it either. Thus, when the copy enters, it doesn't have Offspring and doesn't trigger.
The CR was just updated to explain that offspring is two abilities.
702.175a Offspring represents two abilities. “Offspring [cost]” means “You may pay an additional [cost] as you cast this spell” and “When this permanent enters, if its offspring cost was paid, create a token that’s a copy of it, except it’s 1/1.”
A copy of the spell on the stack sees only the first part:
707.2 "for an object on the stack, choices made when casting" are copied.
Offspring 2 was chosen to be paid is seen by the copies.
When the copy enters it doesn't know what to do with Offspring 2 because the second ability didn't have the choice in it.
@Dogno94 wow that's crazy. I admit layers are still one of the few rules I struggle to fully grasp thank you so much for finding and sharing this. I will pin your comment hopefully others will see it too!
@@Dogno94 Ain't both Silverquill and Zinnia adding the ability both via 613.1f layer 6 ?
Silverquill adds DEMONSTRATE, Zinnia adds Offspring. First is an on-cast trigger, second an additional cost for an ETB trigger.
I fail to understand how this is a nonbo, but layers are really the esoteric part of magic for me. Feels strange that other channels and media are suggesting Silverquill. Including Card Kingdom, TCGplayer ...
EDIT: I've submitted a request in a Judge youtuber's inbox, hope he covers it soon (does a daily video).
(Either to confirm it either way, with a more comprehensible explanation).
The "Im just an artifact baby" deck. I love it, thanks for the inspiration.
@@TelesphoreArt glad I could help
I love you. I was stucked with Zinnia thinking I had to inevitably for the blinking route or buy super expensive card to ramp, be it dockisde or similar... but this... the artifact way... I get it now. I have to abandon my flesh shell and embrace the metallic family of inanimate offsprings
hahahaha glad I could help welcome to the robot legion
Don’t have to worry about that dockside now though st least 😂
I for one welcome our new baby robot overlords.
@@SamuraiJM all hail 🙌 🤖
I love the idea of using artifacts with Zinnia! Another way you could reduce the offspring cost is with things that reduce the cost of creatures with flying (Warden or Evos Isle and Watcher of the Sphere's). Though there aren't as many options as artifacts, these two reduce the cost of Zinnia as well.
@@ent3rth3panda oh nice that's definitely worth exploring!
I went with this combo, ill report back when i get to play them jajaja
Dragons, maybe?
@antoniocotillo9595 dragons could be cool then you could play things like urza's incubator and the dragon specific cost reducers too!
@antoniocotillo9595 but also if you are doing dragon clones it's hard not to just play miirym lol
I finally found how to build this deck. Thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
@@andreazoccatelli8912 my pleasure!!
This is actually amazing!!!! What an incredible detail to realize and build around!! 🎉
@@mikeharkness6571 hahaha thank you!
Dude you absolutely cooked with this one!
@@sirdrholmes8433 hahaha thanks bro
This is a really cool direction to to take Zinnia, I don't think I've seen anyone build her with this theme of cost reducers and artifacts. You mainly see people building her as a ETB and/or flicker deck which is a bit boring, so it's nice to see an original build of her 👍 Also do you take suggestions for commanders to build around in future videos?
haha thanks I really like this one too! You can always suggest cool commanders but no promises I'll do a video. If I like the commander a lot then you might get lucky :)
@@OnlyLands-MTG Ah okay. I wanted to suggest either Glarb, calamity's augur or Gev, Scaled scorch. I think Gev is pretty underrated, going with lizard tribal is not the way to go but instead building him as goblin tribal would be a neat idea as you could put in impact tremor effects to buff up a wide board of goblin tokens, on top of that Gev combos with creatures with persist and any sac outlet. Which there are two goblins with persist (Murderous Redcap & Putrid Goblin) which you can tutor with goblin matron.
@BIGBOY1996-pu5wz I have a Gev list that I was already planning to do as my next video hahaha. It's not Goblin tribal but it's pretty cool I think you'll like it :)
@@BIGBOY1996-pu5wzI love the idea of Gev! My favourite commander is Ob Nixilis Captive Kingpin, I was so excited to see Gev it allows me to continue the trail of ping commanders like Ghyerson, Nekusar and Ob. I'll definitely have to look into this idea of Gev as a goblin deck 😊
I had this idea in my head! All the cost-reducers, then cast for free w/ offspring to shoot off copies of Scrap Trawlers and such. Cool to see somebody make it.
I am really enjoying this idea. Great way to build I think this deck would be so powerful!
Absolutely baller - Totally gonna try this out.
Nice! good luck with it!
Any deck containing brudiclad is a fun deck
@@flosiporosi7827 I agree such a fun card :)
As soon as you said “Artifacts” I said “oh shit”
hahahaha a fellow degen artifact enjoyer welcome
Brother, this is looking great. I'm gonna give it a try. Appreciate it!
Hell yeah good luck!
Wow, this is indeed a very inspiring build for Zinnia. I just bought the precon and upgraded it a bit. But like you said, I feel it's more mana hungry than my current list can provide. Also, it feels a bit generic (make more creatures that do ETB things). This, combined with me still wanting to have an artifact-based deck (but not one of the obvious ones), makes me really happy with your deck idea and I'm gonna change my deck right away. Thanks a lot!
@@mark3826 hell yeah good luck hope it treats you right!
Here is a more budget friendly version of the list if you need it www.archidekt.com/decks/8680135/budget_zinnias_robot_babies
@@OnlyLands-MTG thnx will check it out
as an artifact lover, I love this.
hehe glad you like it
Pretty interesting take! Zinnia is the Bloomburrow commander that most interested me. I hope you make a deck for my boy Gev, please don't shy away from it's combo potential!
@josebarrera6104 you're in luck I do have a Gev deck coming next! It is not a combo deck though, the persist combo stuff isn't really interesting to me anymore 😕 just kinda been there done that but I am sure you'll like the list! And you could definitely slot in a few persist creatures to the list if you want to go the combo route!
I'm digging the build. I'm half tempted to gut my Cayth, famed mechanist deck to build it. Two cards I might suggest to add would be song of the worldsoul and nesting dovehawk. Worldsoul is functionally another panharmonicon style effect but instead of making a token of what you're currently casting, it copies your best on board. It might be too slow given it's 6 mana or it might be too reliant on board state as it needs a token in play to be viable but if it sticks, it's potent. Dovehawk is a must answer threat with zinnia as it can singlehandedly run away with the table if not dealt with
@jots083 both super powerful cards thay I definitely think you could make work. Dovehawk I agree is nasty work with Zinnia. It's just really hard to fit them into an artifact deck we need to keep our artifact count high and I'm already pushing it with the non artifacts in this list.
wow that isssss pretty neat
Very original way to build Zinnia ... the mana hungry cost of offpsring surely caps this commander potential.
I'm skeptic on the Silverquill combo/nonbo (layers ain't my expertise) but nonetheless, this decklist is fire.
Stoneforge mystic searching for skullclamp or Reaver Cleaver ... on Zinnia.
OH HOW COULD I'VE MISSED THIS. THE CLEAVING in the air...
@jjcc8379 yeah I pinned a comment explaining it the silverquil sadly doesn't work layers are weird hahaha. Planning on releasing a short explaining it soon.
@@OnlyLands-MTG Yeah, I'm definitely curious about how it works.
Another thing I really appreciate of this deck: I discovered so many doctor Who cards, a set which I glossed over (a bit fed up with so many magic releases at the time).
@jjcc8379 I totally feel you I definitely skipped over a lot of Dr. Who and Assassin's Creed cards.
I was thinking of going a similar direction but with Modular creatures
Hahaha I love it! Modular is one of my favorite mechanics! My signature deck is actually a modular deck. Once I get to 1000 subs I'll do a deck tech on it :)
This deck looks awesome, think I'm gonna change my ZInnia to something similar
hell yeah good luck!
I feel like “Anim Pakal, Thousandth Moon” would be good in here.
@jQuartz85 she was in the list at one point she definitely has potential! I decided against her because 1. she is legendary so you can't offspring her 2. we don't have reliable ways to buff her outside of her own ability 3. She herself is not an artifact and we already have quite a few non artifact creatures in the list. I definitely think there are ways to make her work with a few tweaks though!
Holy shit this is amazing
@@nicocatalano5807 hahaha thank you 😊
bro cooked insanely hard here
thank you thank you 🙏
nice deck bro, its such a good direction.
@eyetec1095 definitely a powerful and unique take!
It kinda makes more sense that robots make smaller versions of them alone than living creatures
You had me at artifacts man. Might I suggest Osgir as our "alternate" commander? Since Zinia gets big and your board gets big having an alternate plan if Zinia gets too high to cast and your board getting wiped sets your plan back a lot. That's where Osgir comes in and reanimates some of your creatures from the grave.
Also, can someone explain the demonstrate interaction with offspring to me? I'm too small head to understand it.
@somerando6215 osgir is a great suggestion! I want to make sure to keep my artifact count high so would probably want to cut a non artifact for him.
So since offspring is an additional cost to cast if you pay for it that creature spell will create an offspring when it resolves. Since demonstrate copies the spell on the stack it will copy the fact that offspring was paid for as well. So when the demonstrate copies resolve they will also produce offspring.
@@OnlyLands-MTG oh so that's how that works thanks man! 😃
@@somerando6215 no problem!
This is great, but I'm totally gonna modify it to include noncreature tax effects, like Glowrider, to slow down any opponents not as committed to a creature strategy as I am.
maybe ethersworn canonist too to learn more into a staxy plan
5:45
A note on double demonstrating, you mentioned that the ratio gets worse if you copy it twice, but this is only true if you give both copies to the same opponent.
In a multiplayer game, it's quite simple for you to end up with 6 copies, and two different opponents to only get 2 copies, making the ratio much more strongly in your favor.
@MechanizedMoose I actually learned this interaction doest work at all! It's a layers problem watch the short I uploaded to learn more!
Oh hey, Palinchron goes infinite with Zinnia. Neat.
@davidrosenberg9615 yep just like Riku hahaha turns our palinchron is pretty busted!
I don’t get why nobody has come up with this but me, yet I haven’t seen a single person do this. Replace your rocks, you don’t need rocks. You need mana dorks! There are 7 myrs who tap for mana. That alone ups your possible offspring targets, while increasing your mana. If you combine that with an artifact cost reducer and cards like tribute mage and trophy mage, you can always get access to the exact myr needed. It’s so versatile.
This is a great suggestion, I think I still prefer the rocks just so we aren't as weak to board wipes and without haste mana dorks are definitely slower than the rocks but they definitely have more upside. I typically prefer my mana resources to have a higher floor even if it means the have a lower ceiling but I totally would not fault you for preferring dorks here :)
@@OnlyLands-MTG all in on theme is my idea. It’s more fun to build a deck around a mechanic even if it presents some restrictions because it can enable some silliness others won’t expect. Everything dies to removal anyways, so yeah, one board wipe could hit them, but they are immune to certain other board wipes.
@@ednamsgiraffe I'm with you except when it comes to my mana hahaha. I need to be able to rebuild after a wipe that will already be devastating but like I said I don't fault you for going balls to the wall!
You can have your cake and eat it too if you use catch up ramp creatures with some bounce lands and maybe a lotus field. Then you'll be more resilient to a wider range of board wipes
@justwantawholename yeah definitely true but you don't get to play mana rocks for 0 to net mana with your cost reducers ;) def a more resilient strat though!
My only request is for this to be called Burdza.
hahaha call it whatever you want ;)
It's such a cool way to take this commander. I already have 3 artifact decks, and it looks like it will be 4, lol.
@@victorgallardo4399 hahaha i know the feeling my artifact addiction is strong too
@@OnlyLands-MTG artifacts are the best!
I really feel like the Deepest Foundation White Ixalan God will go crazy in this deck. Triple tokens, if it dies, just flip it to a land, and the flip requirement is 3 mana and attack with 3 creatures.
@Foro-jz9bu a 6 mana creature that you need to untap with that can't be reduced by our cost reducers is tough but I agree if you can untap with it then you should just win the game hahaha!
You could pay the extra 2 to offspring her. The token enters and choose to sacrifice the non token copy, it comes back as a land available for use right away, and then you still have the token version creating 3 tokens each time. It’s goofy, but kinda funny.
Okay so this is actually a really neat thought...
My plan for my deck is to create a bird tribal deck out of Zinnia ❤
@TheLord_of_ForbiddenDecks definitely a great option for bird tribal commander!
This looks like a great direction for Zinnia! Very unorthodox
Thank you! I think it really alleviates a lot of Zinnia's weaknesses
@@OnlyLands-MTG I happen to have an izzet artifact list at this time but I could see myself taking the precon into this direction in the future.
I'm running a panharmonicon w broodmoth and it is crazy. Rapid augmenter is reaaalllyyyy good with it
those are some saucy synergies for sure!
Got a few questions. I already obtained most of the cards for the deck save for the expensive lands. I was wondering what is the purpose of Simulacrum Synthesizer and stoneforge mystic? Will I be losing out since I don't have the shadowspear for stoneforge mystic? Also what is the best target for Urza's Saga when it resolves when there are only a handful of artifacts with 1 cost?
Simulacrum Synthesizer is just an army in a bottle card. When our commander is making additional copies of our 3 mana artifacts it just spits out tons of giant bodies and when those triggers are being doubled by panharmonicon you can see it just gets out of hand. Is it completely necessary for the deck to function? No. Does its just give you a literal buttload of giant constructs? Yes. It is also a great target to find with goblin engineer when doing your cursed mirror shenanigans.
Stoneforge is capable of finding primarily skullclamp. When you are making 1/1 copies of your creatures skullclamp just draws you tons of cards. It can also find shadowspear which is just a really solid utility piece being able to remove hexproof and indestructible from opponents creatures and having at least 1 way to gain a ton of life is always nice to have in the deck. Is it necessary again no. Stoneforge can also get swiftfoot boots which is always nice and The Reality Chip which with all the cost reducers can draw you ton of cards. I think stoneforge is still worth it even without shadowspear but if you dont have the shadowspear i would maybe look for another lifelink enabler just to have that big lifegain option.
Urza's saga is usually getting sol ring or skullclamp and I consider it worth it in pretty much any deck that plays both of those. Gets better when you have shadowspear too but again isn't necessary.
This is deffo a fun idea for a deck. In actual gameplay though, does it hold up, compared to others like Urza, Chief Artificer, and Breya? Not asking cEDH wise (I am not spending that much money on a deck), but for regular, 6-7 power or so level tables.
I think it is def comparable to that Urza but Breya is extremely powerful lol. Breya is def stronger given how many combos she has available.
This list is awesome, could we get a budget version/swaps?
www.archidekt.com/decks/8680135/200_zinnias_robot_babies
I gotchu
@@OnlyLands-MTG bless
Do have a decklist of that. Very awsome by the way
@@ronrose2031 moxfield link is in the description :)
I'd probably run Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation and Anointed Procession to be annoying
Yeah I decided I preferred the panharmonicon effects over the token doublers and didn't think I had room for both but those cards are undeniably powerful.
I'm sure I hear " mix your urza artifact deck into it" excellent I shall do just that 😅
So would this reduce the actual 2 offspring or just the creature cost or both?
@MVMNTCam it can effectively do both! Since you calculate the cost with MV + additional costs - reductions if you have 6 cost reducers in play you can play a solemn with offspring for free!
Gonna combine Zinnia with my Hofri spirit dragon deck. XD
@@Cyberium Hofri is awesome severely slept on commander
@@OnlyLands-MTG Yeah, my current Hofri deck combines regular EtB creatures with a hefty amount of artifact creatures, many token generators like your Zinnia here, so it might as well become a Zinnia deck.
Potential combos are like: Yosei, the Morning Star, enters with offspring, sac the offspring to shut down an opponent. Better if I have Cloudstone Curio in play to bounce Yosei back to hand. If every card is turned into artifact, it can come back out for near free.
@Cyberium cloudstone curio doesn't work with artifact creatures but that is definitely a fun interaction!
@@OnlyLands-MTG Oh, true, so I'll have to keep the dragons non-artifact. ^_^
@Cyberium yeah curio is hard to make work with artifacts sadly
Omg thats math nerd deck 🤓
Hi! Im really curious why we put chaos warp into the deck instead of generous gift! Can someone explain?
I like chaos warp more I consider it a better card. Shuffling into the library is a much better form of removal in casual commander where there aren't too many tutors. Destroy is much less reliable form of removal, it can't hit indestructible and almost all decks have some way to get cards, especially permanent cards, from the graveyard. Yes there is a risk with them flipping something off the top of their library but I only use Chaos Warp on something that really needs to be gone. Also if you look at the average breakdown of a deck the likelihood of someone flipping a land/mana rock/instant/sorcery is pretty high in which case the downside is even lower than giving them a 3/3. I used to think Chaos Warp was a terrible removal spell but I have changed my thoughts on it I think its one of the best out now answers anything permanently!
That's just my opinion though if you prefer generous gift and feel it is more reliable feel free to play that instead :)
Wouldn't rubby, pearl and sapphire medallions do the same thing?
@stephenwozab2640 yes they do! But they will only work on those respective colors so if you wanted to focuse on only 1 or 2 of those color creatures they would be great! This list also have a lot of colorless creatures so I didn't think they were worth it since I can't offspring the medallions themselves and they only reduce costs on ~ 1/4 of our creatures each but you could definitely brew a version that makes good use of them :)
So agate is amazing because you can lay for multiple instances of offspring giving you three of them for 6 mana
@@jeremyklotz5803 yeah agate instigator is super good 👌
Any recommendations for cuts to reduce the cost?
Here is a $200 version that is a good starting point! www.archidekt.com/decks/8680135/budget_zinnias_robot_babies
@@OnlyLands-MTG I really appreciate you doing this for me. Thank you.
@@dg2010 a few other people asked already so I went ahead and made a few edits
a bit of a newb here.. but how do cost reducers like pearl medallion work in offsprings?..
@sweetpotato_7353 the medallions work well too! If you wanted to really lean into 1 or 2 colors then a medallion could put in a lot of work! I put up the ruling early on in the video if you want to pause and read it should explain it :)
i like song of the worldsoul and using low cost creatures that spawn tokens on etb then have creatures or impact tremors ping for each creature entering the battlefield.
@infernalspawn9662 I think a 6 mana enchantment is not where this deck wants to be but the gameplan for this list is the same haha
@@OnlyLands-MTG copy solemn simulacrum enough times and you can hahaha
@infernalspawn9662 I mean you can, it just isn't worth it or necessary. There are cheaper ways to make more copies of our important tokens already in the list like oltec matterweaver :)
@@OnlyLands-MTG i thought my idea was still pretty cool though but okay
@infernalspawn9662 it is cool and you should build however you want that's what makes commander awesome! Just because I don't think it's worth it doesn't mean it isn't cool!!!
1:02 wouldn't ruby, pearl and sapphire medallions do the same?
I need some game play videos lmao 😂
@Onisamurai92 I'm trynna work on it but I don't build most do these decks in paper. I could get some cockatrice gameplay pretty easily but if you want paper games it will have to be for decks I actually own.
Do you think Arabella, Abandoned Doll and Dollmaker's Shop // Porcelain Gallery are good enough for this deck
I think Arabella would be awesome! Not convinced Dollmaker's shop is worth it though its hard to find room for enchantments and it just makes 1/1 tokens with no abilities and then the Porcelain Gallery will actually Nerf your Zinnia. I do think you could probably find room for the Jolly Balloon Man though getting more ETB value and making 1/1s is pretty sweet!
@@OnlyLands-MTG Thanks for the reply I made this deck played 3 game won 2 deck feels really good saw your Balloon Man deck and really want to play it
@@flyhighonskooma2833 the balloon man deck pops off! def give it a try if you get the chance :)
@@flyhighonskooma2833 glad the deck is treating you well :)
Probably im wrong but i don't understand why you should get 2 copys from a Panharmonicon effect, when offspring is a cast trigger.. @3:55 I think when you cast the Thought Monitor you get one additional copy and draw 8 cards
Offspring basically gives the creature an etb trigger if you pay it.
Yeah you pay for Offspring as part of the cast but it gives the creature an ETB. The ruling is 702.175a Offspring represents two abilities. “Offspring [cost]” means “You may pay an additional [cost] as you cast this spell” and “When this permanent enters, if its offspring cost was paid, create a token that’s a copy of it, except it’s 1/1.” the fact it says "when this permanent enters" means it gives the creature an ETB and therefore will double trigger with panharmonicon effects.
@onlylands can we get a way to see all these cards?
There is a moxfield link in the description! but just warning you I did not make this a with the intention of being a precon upgrade. It is a completely different list built around Zinnia from scratch!
@@OnlyLands-MTG What about seeing which cards we should remove or add from pre con?
@nathanpaige9073 this isn't a precon upgrade you're gonna have to figure that out for yourself mate. I didn't even look at the precon when building this list its completely different. Sorry :/
@@OnlyLands-MTG my man i feel that.
@@nathanpaige9073 Thanks for understanding good luck!
If I use panharmonicon to double the offspring effect. Do I have to pay for the offspring twice? Or do I pay for it once and then it doubles?
Great video btw! Crazy ideas! Gonna pick up some of these cards for sure☺️
You only have to pay once because you pay as part of the casting cost! Then it will trigger when it enters and panharmonicon will cause it to trigger again!
@@OnlyLands-MTG damn! I thought it was crazy even if you had to pay another 2! It’s even more crazy than I thought!🤣 Thankyou bro☺️
-I tried the base precon out for the first time the other day. The rose room treasurer also works to basically make offspring free☺️ if you offspring him, you get 2 treasure per creature entering. Twice per turn. So basically cast a card plus offspring and then get 4 mana back! It was insane! Carried me the full game
@@Harbord yeah that card seems super solid in Zinnia. If he was an artifact he would have been in this list 100%
Did you not find a space for Annointed Procession?
I found it difficult to fit it since we need to keep our artifact count high. I decided to play the panharmonicon effects instead, they essentially work as offspring doublers as well but also do more fore the deck when you don't have zinnia around. Anointed procession would definitely be a powerful include though if you have one laying around and think you can fit it I definitely encourage you to try it out!
Gotta figure out a way to lower the price of the deck but I absolutely love calculator decks, thanks for the teck!
www.archidekt.com/decks/8680135/200_zinnias_robot_babies here you go man. not that hard to just change the land base a swap a few expensive cards.
@@OnlyLands-MTG Thanks!!! Will definetly take It to my LGS!
@@DCRsShow hell yeah have fun!
Hey would you consider making a budget version of this? I like the vision a lot and would like to try it out
@dorkskyy I'll see what I can do. What budget are you looking for?
@@OnlyLands-MTG 200 range would be awesome
@@dorkskyy I'll see what I can do
@@dorkskyy here you go $200 Zinnia Robots www.archidekt.com/decks/8680135/budget_zinnias_robot_babies
@@OnlyLands-MTG you're the man 🔥🔥 thanks for looking out for us budget boys out here
Hi, can someone explain me the ineraction with silverquill, i dont understand why 6 and 4 plzzzzz 😅😅
@fromentyann7638 I have explained it a few other times in the comments do a little digging and see if it makes sense.
What a nice content
why thank you :)
@@OnlyLands-MTG Welcome, just wondering why your views are low
@@EmmanuelLockwood-p3x hahaha appreciate it I have only been at it for 6 months or so and only really have time to upload 1 video a week. Its growing slowly but steadily :) but I appreciate the support!
@@OnlyLands-MTG Are ya available for more discussions?
@@EmmanuelLockwood-p3x what do you mean?
Will Darksteel forge be a good addition to this?
@TowerBooks3192 9 mana for something that only doges like half the board wipes out there doesn't seem worth in almost any deck these days.
@@OnlyLands-MTG I wish I saw your video prior to going on an ordering spree. I just bought other cards with some expensive ones like Ojer Taq and Mondrak along with Annointed Procession. Heck I opened my Family Matters today and it is missing that one Plumecreed card but luckily I got a mockingbird to fill in while I wait for my cards.
This deck kinda sorta reminds me of those affinity to artifact decks back in the days of Darksteel/Mirrodin/Fifth Dawn.
Im confused in demonstrate and offspring.
If I cast creature and offspring it. I will get 3 creatures. 1 that I cast. 1 that I offspring. 1 for the demonstrate copy. And 1 for the opponent. Am I correct??
No you will get 4 creatures and your opponent will get 2. Since you pay for offspring as part of the casting cost that creature is now considered "offspringed" on the stack. Since demonstrate copies the spell on the stack the copies of that spell made by demonstrate will also be "offspringed". So your opponent will have 1 copy on the stack and when it resolves they will get their 1 copy and then their offspring. You will have 2 copies on the stack and they will both produce offspring when they resolve. So you get 4 and your opponent gets 2.
Oww. So If I cast and I offspringed it. While it's on the stack the demonstrate will triggers and I can copy the 2 creature. So I will have 4 and since I use my demonstrate twice my opponent will also have 2 copy. Am I correct? 😁🫡 Thank you
@@daryltulana8231 no you get 4 and your opponent gets 2 when you demonstrate once. If you offspring your lecturer and demonstrate twice then your opponent will get 2 copies that each offspring so 4 copies (but you can split them up. You will get 3 copies on the stack that will all resolve and generate offspring so you get 6 copies.
Am i the only one who misread the function machine and saw "inputs and octopus?"
hahahahahaha
I need help, I went with this strat and my play group keeps making me pay for the off spring cost even though I have mana cost reducers out. They say Zinnia is not an artifact therefore her off spring trigger still needs to be paid....
Tell them that Zinnia gives offspring too the creature its not Zinnia's ability. Try showing them the ruling that I show in the beginning of this video. Your friends are wrong. If they still don't believe you just google Zinnia and cost reducers hopefully something should show up.
@@OnlyLands-MTG being the newest player in the group it’s very easy for them to want to dismiss what I’m trying to say. Thank you for the tips for how to bring it up next week. I figured once I had those artifact reducers as long as the creature is an artifact creature that I’m offspring, I will get those reductions. I think I was just confusing them how I was explaining it.
@@TelesphoreArt magic is a hard game when in doubt just try to look things up. I still have to do it all the time!
Spoke with a level one judge at my LGS. They also told me you cannot reduce the mana cost of offspring. The closest you get is reducing the cost of artifact creatures by two which is the cost of off spring so, in a way its like you are not having to pay, but you are. I am new and this has caused a lot of confusion so I wanted to share so you can hopefully update how you explain it. Offspring is being paid, but by reducing the overall cost of casting you artifact by two, it is as if you didn't have to pay for the offspring. :) Thanks again for the fun deck idea, its been a blast to play!
Also, I did try to refer to the video and rules. The guy referred to kicker cost and offspring and how those are not reduced in addition to the cost of the spell to cast. Also if you still think it's another way I would love to hear it! Please let me know which part of the rule you are referring too and why so I can explain it that way. No worries if you don't want to, Im just trying to understand. :) I read through all of 601-602 but couldn't find any part that talked about reducing etb triggers.
Bird bard is best bird
CAW CAW
Can zinnia be triggered multiple times per creature? Is it an infinite mana outlet
Infinite mana w, foresnsec gadgetier and basalt. Cast any crwature and offspring it infite times?
No you would need to give multiple instances of offspring to the creatures. Each instance of offspring can only be paid for once. Its Kicker non Multikicker. If you copied Zinnia herself then you could do some nutty things like that but it won't be infinite.
Anyone test this deck yet? How does it run?
@@idontcarewhatname123 I played it a few times myself. I had an awkward draw 1 game but the other 2 it performed very well!
@OnlyLands-MTG nice! What do you think the power level is compared to the precon?
@@idontcarewhatname123 I mean this is much more optimized than the precon but its still definitely casual. There are no infinite combos or fast mana but the deck is definitely capable of dealing TONS of damage pretty quickly if left unchecked. I would call it a 7 but every groups definition of a 7 is different.
But why the "artifact cost reducer" impact on "Offspring Cost" ?
I put the rule in the video. Costs are determined by Base mana value + additional costs (offspring) then - reductions to costs. This means cost reducers can help pay for additional costs including kicker, buyback, and offspring
@OnlyLands-MTG But cost reducer works only for artifact-creature, right?
@@ciapz yes that's why I built around artifact creatures. I can take advantage of cost reducers since Zinnia is normally so mana hungry.
Demonstrate and panharmonicon confuse me and how I’m getting so many cards.
@XxRayxX210 demonstrate and panharmonicon don't affect each other. Panharmonicon and offspring affect each other. I thought offspring and demonstrate affected each other too but if you read the pinned comment I was actually wrong about this. Magic is hard hahahs
Took some ideas from this video and cranked it to 11, Check out Zinnia Techno Album
I was under the impression that offspring was just a creature and not an artifact creature. How would this work or am I missing something?
@andspeck artifact creatures are still creatures. Zinnia would have to say "non-artifact creature spells you control" if they were to be excluded!
Yes, but you said Etherium Sculpture and the copy can pay for all the offspring costs. How can it reduce the the costs of offspring is not a an artifact spell?
@@ChupacabraChito I figured it was understood that it was only for the artifact creatures. But that is most of the creatures in the list. That's the point of building Zinnia as an artifact deck is that you get to take advantage of these cost reducers.
I love this twist on zinnia, But I’ve been straying away from all of these copy token makers. The new saheeli, shaun, satya, tawnos, etc… it’s a nightmare to have different named tokens that are copies… you need like a million inifnitokens
@danny_goes_south yeah infinitokens really are the way I agree it can be a pain to keep track of
You had me until Smothering Tithe lol. Deck was so original and then that thing popped up.
@vileluca it's a powerful card and it's an artifact token deck at the end of the day if you don't like playing with the card don't use it. 1 card doesn't make the deck :)
Being an edge lord and ignoring an exceptionally powerful card that helps you actually afford the potential excessive mana costs in this deck isn’t a flex brother.
What about “The Peregrine Dynamo”
@jQuartz85 I like that card a lot but I'm not sure how it fits in this list care to elaborate?
@@OnlyLands-MTG I read it wrong. I thought you could double the offspring triggers with it.
@@jQuartz85 yeah you could on legendary creatures but that sadly isn't too valuable hahaha
@@jQuartz85 magic is hard lol
Training grounds allows you to just get offspring for free isn't it?
@worldmedic3187 no offspring is an additional cost to cast which then results in a triggered ability. It is not an activated ability. An activated ability will always be something you pay to activate on a permanent on the battlefield and will be notated with a "cost : effect" if you don't see that templating it is not an activated ability.
@@OnlyLands-MTG I thought cycling was an activated ability, so I figured they work similar
@worldmedic3187 cycling is an activated ability you are correct but offspring is not, it's much closer to kicker. So what I said earlier about activated abilities needing to be on permanents was wrong they can be on cards in hand as well. However training grounds specifies "creatures you control" which only refers to creatures on your battlefield so training grounds does not work with cycling either. "Control" is defined by being on your battlefield otherwise it would say "creatures you own" and more specifically if it is talking about creatures in hand it would say "creatures cards".
i love the deck but this thing will cost almost $500 on tcg player
you're allowed to change a list. I brew with optimized land bases and without budget constraints for the power level I enjoy playing. I expect people to be able to change things to fit their budget and power level. I share cool ideas I have. The idea should carry over even if you can't afford the list exactly as is.
www.archidekt.com/decks/8680135/200_zinnias_robot_babies
Here is a cheaper one, I made this because this list was so popular but in general the hope is you are able to make those decisions yourself.
Aha another brewer who didn't mention "whenever you cast" and how vague it is to our benefits. My decks always ready to cast creatures from exile, GY and hand 🎉
What do you mean? can you elaborate on this?
Doesn’t seem cheap to me
when did I say cheap?
Here's a $200 version www.archidekt.com/decks/8680135/200_zinnias_robot_babies
@@OnlyLands-MTG you didn’t. It’s just and observation 😅😅
@Elgranmentor1 I don't brew with budget in consideration just power level. I brew these lists as something to build towards. They are usually pretty easy to cut a few expensive cards and change the land base to bring the budget way down. If enough people ask me I make the budget version myself so always feel free to ask or if you want some practice brewing use the "tag" function on moxfield to see the categories I break the cards down by and just cut the cards that are out of your budget for cards that fill the same roll :)