"It's A Deathtrap" - Armstrong Siddeley Lancaster Condemned By Dad
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- Опубліковано 10 жов 2024
- "It's A Deathtrap" - Armstrong Siddeley Lancaster Condemned By Dad #car #classiccars #testdrive
The oldest car in my collection is a rather rare 1949 Armstrong Siddeley Lancaster and only a few remain on the UK. In the previous video we got it out the garage and took it to Dad's house for a bit of a leisure drive, the first this year ... sadly Dad spotted a few things wrong.
Upon review Dad found a MASSIVE crack in the chassis making it very dangerous and unsafe. In this video Dad shows us the problems and starts to strip it down for repair.
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As ever - thanks for watching (i didn't expect so many people to be interested in the Armstrong) - stay tuned to see it fixed!
your dad never seizes to amaze us with his knowledge :)
I'm 79 YY and you two have just jogged my memory back to the early 1960s, my father owned an Armstrong Siddley Whitley in black with silver stripping. In a low time at work dad decided to keep the plant fitter busy and for me to help.
All the brakes shoes were stripped out and sent away to be reshod, in the mean time all removed parts were cleaned and put in a cardboard box. Work continued on servicing construction plant until the shoe returned. Only to find the box had been overturned and AS parts were everywhere, my job was to get on my knees and search them out. While installing the shoes the fitter decided four return springs were missing and would not believe me when I said there was only one on each set. Four more springs were purchased from Armstrong's works in N. London. During road testing brakes were hard to apply and so Armstrong's were called and a special Saturday morning appointment made. Armstrong only worked a five day week but made a special case for dad. I went along with dad and the head mechanic and workshop manager took the car into the workshop while we sat in reception drinking tea, he returned 20 mins later with four springs in hand saying they were not needed, my chest expanded in that told you so manner. When dad asked for the bill the manager just said that's AS service, they also declined a tip. On pulling out the works dad called into a fuel station to fill up and noted the two AS guys walk into a café so we followed them in and dad bought the breakfasts.
Seeing your AS only had one spring reminded me of all that. Many thanks do keep up the good works. In my time I spent 15 years owning a 1930 wooden classic family motor cruiser, that in 1940 went to Dunkirk and was used to ferry troops off the beach to larger craft off shore. She returned to Blighty holed at the waterline and some say carrying 85 souls on board. She then spent the rest of WWII hunting enemy parachute mines in the Thames Estuary.
In 1962 borrowd a Lancaster from a friend in Peterborough and drove up tp Aberdeen and back. Great journey comfy car. I wish you well.
Wow what a journey! We're not far from Peterborough either. Thanks for watching
The chassis isn't cracked. However the bracket requires repair or replacement. But the reality is there are no half measures. But that does not mean a full restoration is needed. All old cars wear and often they if they look reasonable keep getting used and not properly deep serviced. I have just completely rebuilt the brake system, fuel system, fully serviced the underbody including stripping all the deadener underneath off to clean inspect and recoat on my Sapphire. The car now stops steers runs and performs the way it should on new tyres. It is time consuming to replace every hose to check everything. But the car is 68 years old! I can now drive it with confidence.
A proper car with a proper mechanic a joy to watch.
Many thanks
It is just a fatigue crack in the upper bracket. That simply is a habbit of older cars.
But human mankind invented TIG welding for that. Cracks are thoroughly cleaned and welded using special tough filler materials, such as 1.7734/2
This is specialist welders work however. The car deserves it. Inspect the chassis regularly.
The brakes shoes can be done by yourself, using rivets and liners you find at a truck-repair shop. Look for some liners with the same radius and cut them narrower.
I wish you many miles in future with the car.
Many thanks - Dad can weld and so there is a combination of repairs that he has done here including welding and then a stronger plate of metal being fitted - (thats all to come to the channel). The brakes were a different issue in the end (again coming soon) - thanks for watching
Great video) i saw a Armstrong siddley sapphire recently in blue) it was driving around north London area. I was driving my own classic car at the time ) my current car's are from the 60's and 70's but since seeing the Armstrong siddley driving around, im also now interested in 1940's and 50's : car's). it was my friend who was with me, who told me what make and model it was. I'm in my 50's and he's 94 years old so, he remembers all these beautiful car's from the 1940's /50's. Very well.
Oh lovely - i do like the Sapphires! Thanks for watching
You two remind of my son and I . We both have a classic car and motorbikes. We spend many happy hours working on them and using them . Great to have that bond between father and son . I am 84 but still able to maintain our cars and bikes . I look forward to seeing how you go on with that lovely car . Love the colour by the way .
Oh that's lovely. Thanks for sharing and for watching ☺️
That's good to hear. My long time friend is 94) and he still drives and is able to maintain his classic car's) I also own classic car's, some of them I've owned for a very long time, I'm 54 ) and a few of them I bought from him 35 year's ago: age is nothing but a number for a active body &mind: ) i wish you many More years of health and enjoyment of classic car's. .
Bad luck lads, still better to find it now than on the highway , lovely old car all the same . The other side bracket should be inspected and both strengthened perhaps
Yes absolutely! It will be repaired 👍😊
Just after the end of the Second World War, a neighbouring farmer used to buy classic cars for very little, the colour scheme of that Siddley reminded me of an Armstrong Siddley Sphinx with the recumbent sphinx on the bonnet, it also had a very large rear seat where his daughter and I could test the cars rear suspension.
I've never heard of an Armstrong Siddeley Sphinx ... Was that a model of car?
@@JonCoupland This was a shooting brake with wooden panelling and a drop down tailgate.
Don't despair Jon , it can be repaired , simple but high quality engineering , possibly caused by a shock absorber so worn out that excessive suspension flexing which was too much for the bracket to stand, from what I can see it is riveted to the main chassis member which would require drilling out and possibly subsituted by high tensile bolts .Interesting feature of this 1949 car that a 1949 Sunbeam -Talbot I once owned also had the same 6" diameter Lucas headlamp lenses , characterised by the ' eye shaped ' vertical moulding .In 1950 , new enhanced vehicle lighting legislation was introduced where the new standard 7" lamps were introduced by all manufacturers.
I have every confidence that Dad will be able to get it all sorted out. Glad we found it when we did 😊 - you may be on to something there with the suspension as it was quite worn.
probably a lack of movement in the shock not too much that caused the mounting to twist in compensation as it took on all the shocks. It looked pretty solid to me. And its not the first time either. It is covered in welds an extra bits but they never fixed the root cause. I bet its really common with that system.
Love the tinkering videos, guys ... maybe it's been with the accident to the front. The wheel area may of been also involved 🤷♂️ ... I would have thought it would take force to crack that with no corrosion... You certainly have the right man for the job 👍
That's a good thought! We're not 100% certain on the details behind the crash ... But we do know it had one before I bought it. As you say. Dad's on the case 🤣
A friend of mine let me have a rummage through his collection of brake linings and showed me what to do to reline them. I drilled new holes and fitted them in place with copper rivets. Anyway it stopped very well and it passed the MOT.
Oh brilliant!
I do love the Armstrong Siddeley content, there's always loads to do and its proper 'old-school' mechanics too. A build that needs constant fettling. A lovely car indeed! Cheers Jon.
Thanks Mike - really glad you are enjoying the content 😊👍
At 2s an hour that will go a very long way (as long as the service manager doesn't have too many three quid cups of tea). Cool video. I love old British cars. They make my 58 Triumph Thunderbird seem so much more of a road burner.👍
That’s an unpleasant surprise, and even after this major surgery, the brakes will still be pulling.
At least you’ve got your Dad.
Well ... Watch this space BUT you may be surprised what happened with the brakes next
Its not a 'Death Trap', its a 75 year old car that looks like it has a broken suspension braket, its not the chassis . You can either weld it or make a new bracket.
It's a common fault for these Lancasters according to Penn Bradley (who wrote a series) - the suspension bracket is classed as part of the chassis as it is welded to it. I stand by the fact that if left it would 100% be a death trap! Thankfully we caught it before the top arm decided to give in and fall off! Good news though. It's not beyond repair for Dad 😊👍 stay tuned to see part 3 after repair and another test drive
I think it would be pretty hair-raising if the front O/S collapsed at 40 mph!!😂
Precisely ! It has merely suffered a major fracture of the wishbone/shockabsorber mounting bracket : Claiming a fractured chassis is a bit of inaccurate melodramatic sensationalism. The immediate post war development /practice of bestowing higher end coachbuilt cars with IFS has given rise to many similar setbacks esp in metal fatigue and component wear , which did not exist on most pre war models with a solid beam front axle : Many manufacturers in 1945-46 developed their own individual versions of independent front susp. notably TA14 Alvis, Riley RMA, Leaf 14hp, Rover P3, Healey Westlands /Duncans/ Abbots , with their cast aluminium trailing arms , Armstrong Fiddeleys, and Daimler with their excellent time proven DB18 leading arm set-up. And of course we must not overlook the MkV1 Bentley: However most of these went down the route of underslung rear chassis rails ( theRover P3 did away with a rear end chassis rail altogether) and this has lead in recent years to much more serious danger of chassis corrosion in the rear axle areas, as the chassis rails were much closer to the road and thus more vulnerable : The later Daimler Conquest re visited the issue by re-routing the chassis rails over the rear axle , as with Majestic & Maj Major. Replacement suspension spheres for these models are also many hundreds of pounds :
@@2760ade Absolutely - folk saying we are 'being dramatic' need to think again ... this absolutely could have killed me or someone else!
@@YellowDellow-s8i i LOVE the throwaway use of the term 'merely a major fracture' - the suspension bracket is classed as part of the chassis as it is welded to it. I stand by the fact that if left it would 100% be a death trap! Thakfully we caught it and its now been repaired. That would have been a less exciting video title too ... (and it wouldn't have fitted in the word count) - thanks for watching and interesting information abut the other front suspension developments. For a car that I drive 2 or 3 times a year, I wont be panicking - as long as its fundamentally safe it can be a bit bumpy :)
The Principal of a college where I worked had a Hurricane, a fellow member of the tennis club had a Lancaster or a Whitley & I had a Whitley 6 light "kit". I'd still like to own an Armstrong Siddeley but I'm 71 now & don't need a car at all. In the 70s my daily classic was a late Phase1 Standard Vanguard.
Wow a lot of Armstrong Siddeley experience there then! Most people haven't heard of them. Love a Vanguard!
This is why I have a proper mot done each year. I do not have a proper ramp or pit for inspection.
I understand why some owners do it too - were constantly on a fleet maintenance rotation so thankfully we spotted this too
@@JonCoupland in the UK if defect resulted with an accident, the insurance could become void as one was driving a defected vehicle. Un roadworthy they call it. When we collect older vehicles we must maintain them. Nice to see your workshop as your vehicle looks great. Many early cars with power steering resulted with chassis failure due mainly with drivers turning the steering when stationary, putting much stress onto the chassis. Steering stops should be adjusted to make sure the power steering mechanism has not reached its maximum movement as this can result in seal failure. Great fun owning and driving these vehicles but we all have to be aware of the engineering in the age of the vehicle.
The car is as old as me ! Great that spares are still available to keep these iconic cars around. Thankfully engineering companies still manufacture specialist spares to keep classic cars going. MOT exempt means owners need to maintain their cars properly to ensure problems like this are identified before an accident occurs! Prices of spares will reflect small quantities ordered.
When I was stationed at Lajes Air Base in the Azores in '68-'69 there was an Armstrong Siddeley convertible from about that era that had been brought to the island and passed down from owner to owner. By then it was barely running and a load of headaches for the owner.
That would likely have been a Armstrong Siddeley Hurricane! Very cool
My father had a Lancaster in black. Reg JOV 675. At the age of 11 with the help of a couple of cushions he taught me to drive it in a field next door to where we lived. Crash gearbox so had to double de clutch, brakes well sort of worked. The heater had a tap under the bonnet so you could turn it on or off.
The broken part seems to be pretty easy to replace by a stronger one, made of thicker steel, which could be easily manufactured in a good iron workshop. The parts are quite simple, but a bit too thin to support the weight of the engine, gear box and so far. It could be much cheaper than original parts, that can crack again in the future, cause they are not strong enough. I think the designer miscalculated the resistance of this suspension part. Thanks for the video...
Yet that part has lasted 75 years so its not really that too thin. Most cars would never last that long in the first place .
Ooh we're not sure if it has lasted that long ... As Dad says RE some welding it looks as if it has been repaired previously. Potentially in the 70s when restored 😊
Thanks for watching 😊👍 part 3 is coming which sees it repaired but we've used some uprated and thicker steel on the repair
@@JonCoupland Oh, ok...graet...thank you, John...
@@brunosergioporto8881 thanks for watching :)
Back in my youth I owned a 1948 Hurricane, in many ways the best car I have ever owned. I'm talking about 50 years ago, mind. Comfortable and reliable, though driving on a winter's morning trying to scrape ice off both sides of the windscreen wasn't ideal! The hood was just a single skin of fabric so even with the heater on it was a tad cool.
Great in the summer with the hood down though. Good, solid engineering.
Oh brilliant and i bet great fun and memories! I do love a Hurricane
I've only recently started watching your channel, which is excellent by the way, and I have to say, your dad certainly is a character!😂
Thanks for being with us Mark - Dad's the star
So on The chassis not of The chassis,which is a good thing,now The as a previous owner has had a visit from someone with an incontinent pigeon meaning that it's obviously had a previous repair of sorts,might it not be for the best to replace the bracket entirely? After all it's not to difficult to do and I dare say Pete could fashion a new one ...
Well ... That could well be what has happened. You will have to stay posted 👍 (but Dads fixed it 🤣)
Sounds like a case for classic mots
We absolutely agree. Maybe not an MOT as we know it ... But some sort of inspection
Whilst I agree that classics should still be inspected, metal fatigue isn't easily spotted until it has already failed, such as is the case here.
I had a fatigue crack occur suddenly on a Peugeot 205 front crossmember, that still had plenty of MOT left.
@@JonCoupland To be fair, the law does state that MOT exempt cars should still be maintained to a level whereby they would pass an MOT if tested, so the onus is on the owner!! However, some sort of periodic inspection would not be a bad idea!
@@2760ade Good job everything in my fleet is on constant 'tinkering' rotation then :) - (although this is the only MOT exempt thing I own)
Interesting video😮😮 I think dads great ❤
What a man of common sense
😮😮
Thanks for watching. Dad's the star of the show 😄👍
Beautiful colour scheme.
Thank you! Cheers!
My restorer had to do this on one of these which was a wedding car. it can be fixed but a lot of work
Part 3 coming soon - wonder Dad to the rescue ... (as always eh!)
Fantastic video respect to the mechenic on the job 👌👌👌 well done sir 👍
Thanks 👍 that's my Dad. He's the star of the show
@@JonCoupland hats off to him sir 👍
A new subscriber hear wow your Armstrong Sidley looks lovely I love the colour combo please dont change it to black & cream it looks wonderfull as is.The older classics are the best by far none of this computer nonsense or turbo chargers just brilliant engineering that car would Grace any driveway .Hope your welding goes well & fixed the problem .
Thanks for watching and welcome to the channel 😁 - lots more stuff to come
condemned to be fixed by the legend himself lol
Yes🤣 has he done it on purpose!
done by lunch?
Interesting. Cheers lads.
Glad you enjoyed it
Being a Rover fan and 73 yy and still tinkering
Excellent 👍
Didn't cars have different cambers on the front wheels, because the roads are higher in the middle (to make the water to drain to the side). The cars are actually leaning to the side and will turn to the left if not there was different cambers on the front wheels.
Ah yes but if you watch the previous installment then car is massively pulling to the left (which I never did before)
ASOC have a great parts department. Back in the seventies I used to have a black Whitley and did many miles in it. Have you got a workshop manual?
They do - its a testament to them. We thankfully do and its saved our bacon many times!
Its a shame such cars may end up so irreparable, or at a reasonable cost, as museum objects, never to move under their own power again.
Did that Armstrong Siddely have a preselector gearbox, as used in buses 😮
Yes 👍😊 Wilson Preselect
Are the suspension arms similar to the early minis / 100s that might fit the Armstrong
These are substantially bigger sadly 😊
Mot,s are quite a good idea
We're an advocate for a check over on older cars, maybe not a formal MOT like we have here but definitely a safety check 😊👍
I love this vid!!
Thumb+Subscription.
Looking forward to seeing more, a good mechanic assisted/distracted by his curious filmer/parts washer…..
PS I don’t agree with Senior…. I actually DO like the colour combination….
With Kind regards, Henk Tulp, the Netherlands.
Regarding the cost of Brake shoes, would having old shoes relined be possible instead? I think needing rears soon was mentioned in the previous video.
Thats what we did :)
@@JonCoupland Oh, in that case I agree the cost is rather alarming.
O M.G NEVER sit with your legs under a jacked up vehicle regardless of how confident you might be. Take care.
Dad's still got his legs 50 years later 😁👍 - those axle stands will absolutely do their job
Now you now know why we an MOT, still a shame it's happened but I'm assured by your "dads" words.
I'm an advocate for cars of a certain age to still be required to have some sort of safety checks (for this reason!)
Join the Armstrong Siddeley owners club . They purchased all the Parts and Records from ROLLS ROYCE in 1972 👍
I am in contact with the club and have bought parts from them before - i have a personal rule not to 'join car clubs' and that is owing to the amount of marques i own and the cost implications long term (but i understand and appreciate the importance of them!)
I really like the 2 tone, black wouldn't look anywhere near as good imo, boring .
I have to agree! Although when it left the factory it was black and cream WITH brown leather interior ... weird!
@@JonCoupland Post war necessity old bean.wotwot!I think in black it would just become a generic postwar shape ,if you get me?
@@grrfy i absolutely do! and after looking at one 'as it should be' I didn't like it - as you know ... i like to be different anyway!
So what's the game plan? Drill out those rivets, get the whole thing off, fabricate a new one on the bench and then either bolt and/or weld it back on?
Stay tuned to find out (sorry to be that person) 🤦♂️
I guess bird turd welding is a variation of pigeon #### welding.
Yes yes yes 😊
The Smiths jackall system could split its pump when old so beware. If you have camber problems you might have the torsion bars set up incorrectly. These had a big export market to Australia where they were often used to go out into the bush because the chassis was so tough. Luvax double acting shocker by look of it. With the bracket so damaged it might be better to have a new one fabricated. This would give you two advantages A) you can select a heavier material - remember factories had to use whatever material the Government allowed them which was always minimal B) the material will be entire and 0:20 presumably only welded solidly at a junction or possibly folded on hydraulic press such as the small 5ton presses you can purchase from Machine Mart etc.
Always remember with late forties cars that the material you are working with was required on ration from Ministry of Supply of the Labour Government. Steel was very hard to get. That is why so much aluminium was used in high class cars as there was a surplus as no aeroplanes were in production. This had a down side. Aluminium presses were made from rubber moulds and life expectancy was about 1000 pressings which was about the number of expensive models a high class manufacturer would make. If you look at production figures they really exceed 1200 and that is why. You would have replace your presses for a hundred or two more. Unviable. Ask your Dad who is about my generation. That is also why the Land Rover was built because it was built from Rover scrap and obsolete engine production machinery from pre war. It only survived the Labour Government because it was shown to the King who drove one and wanted one! Labour politicians hated it especially as the market was for the owners of large estates who wanted to access remote places for forestry and agriculture. The social history of cars of that era is as interesting as the engineering which was often quite varied! Good luck with project.
Nonsense on stilts.
@@fourwheelzone that needs to be a tshirt
@@fourwheelzone The beauty of engineering is the controversy of opinion but much is explainable if you look at the social history of the time!
As its only a bracket thats failed then a few mins with a wire brush and a mig welder would see a repair that is safe until you can get a replacment made up.
We dont like doing a job and not doing it properly 😊 - thankfully it's not a daily driver so we have the time to do it at our leisure (actually it's been done a while now) - thanks for watching
Get your father a big wall mounted wipe board. It'll change your life.
He's got a chalk board up on the wall 🤣
280 pounds for brake shoes, take the old ones and have them relined.
That's what we did in the end 👍
New brackets and weld up the chassis its not a death trap just an old car and if your useful with a welder it's no big deal .
I disagree. Imagine that arm collapsing at 40mph ... Not only could it have killed me but worse ... Someone else. Yes it's a relatively easy fix in the long run (actually we've fixed it) but absolutely it was dangerous. Don't downplay it.
Curb weight 1550 kg (3417 lbs) it can be done with engine in situ.
Yeah 👍😊 that's how we did it
@@JonCoupland lol
Deathtrap? Seriously? Its a very simple fix to someone that knows what they're doing. Perhaps this is the car for you.
Absolutely it's a deathtrap. Imagine that arm giving way at 40mph ... Last thing I'd want to do is kill myself or heaven forbid someone else. Nowhere did we say it was a difficult fix. In fact dad's phrase was "I aren't panicking" but let's not downplay just how serious this COULD have been if not noticed 😊👍
You should do some of the work yourself so you can learn!
I have my own skills that I bring to the table here 😊 - not everything you see on camera. Sadly Dad often cracks on whilst I'm at work too. Can't pay the mortgage with UA-cam 😄
Why do all amateur videoists talk like top gear presenters 😂
Who knows ... Might be my 16 years as a radio presenter carrying over here
@@JonCoupland oh your not thee Jon coupland are you? Well that explains it 🤩
No @@sandybroon1962 I'm the other one 😜
It looks nice in that colour if it was painted black it would look awfual like a funeral car. Besides black shows up every scratch mark and dent just awful please dont paint it black yuck!!
I won't be painting it 😊👍 but it did leave the factory black
Fair enough glad you won't be painting it. It looks great as it is hope it gets fixed looks a lovely old car
@@Dave-gp6be thanks Dave - part 3 coming soon
Not a difficult repair
No-one said it was difficult ☺️👍 in fact I think dad's phrase was "I aren't panicking"
Do you do any work yourself? Pretty sad that you just stand about watching your elderly dad do all the work on YOUR car.
Nope. I have 0 mechanical skills myself, Dad's the mechanic on the job. If spending quality time with my father enjoy a hobby together is sad ... Then you have severely missed the point of the channel 😊👍
🤦♂️
From my observation, I think you'll find his 'elderly' dad enjoys it!
@@2760ade got to keep the old ones working eh! ;)
The thing that does worry me is that you weren't aware that there was an issue. I keep getting customers who don't seem to have the feel to notice problems, some more dangerous than others. Perhaps you don't drive it much which is not really an excuse and I don't know how long that bracket has been broken.
Did you watch the previous video? I took it for a drive from my house to Dad's (it's about 20 houses down the road) and immediately felt the issue (of the car pulling dramatically to the left) so we took it for a drive together - we then made this video. This was the first time the car has been out this year. It's absolutely happened over the winter whilst been stood. But you are right. That's why it's important to know your car and how it drives.