Pretty solid video and engineering explanation there John. One of your best. I've done up a spreadsheet recently when I did some real world hill climb tests in our PHEV and compared it to the spreadsheet to refine the numbers. Sorry, I'm a test and measurement engineer so can't help myself, but I usually test big stuff, such as Iron Ore haul trucks, ships and large fixed plant like power generation etc... Your results are similar to my estimations for towing with a GCM loaded Shark. For example, my local reference hill (Greenmount hill, Perth) is about 260 m elevation change in 5.8 km, giving a fairly consistent grade of 4.5 %. Not crazy steep, but a typical real test of trucks and light vehicles towing heavy loads. I work it out that you need about 110 kW to hold 100 kmh up that hill using about 6.4 kWhr of battery power to do so. So under the continuous rated power (150 kW) of the Shark electrical system and using a bit under 25% of the battery capacity to make the climb. So the Shark probably can do that hill at CGM at 100 kmh on EV mode only without firing up the engine. For comparison, the 3 kN trailer dyne test works out to be around 116 kW power required at 100 kmh, based on my aerodynamic assumptions, which are reasonably accurate for the Shark, but could be quite a bit out for the trailer, depending on what size and shape your trailer presents to the wind. So the max GCM plus 3kN trailer dyne test works out as a little over 4.5% gradient based on my calcs, which is very similar to your result, resulting from essentially the same 'bare knuckle physics' estimations we are applying, though via different calculation pathways. But as you say, finding such a hill long enough and steep enough and with a 100 kmh limit is no easy thing to do in Australia. In fact, Greenmount hill (my test hill) has an 80 kmh limit, and it's the main East-West route for traffic on the Great Eastern Hwy out of Perth, so has many a truck grinding it's way up the hill day and night. So the whole 'it should maintain 100 kmh at all times' mentality is just not how heavy towing up real hills is done. So there is no problem with the Sharks towing performance, for all the reasons you rightly conclude.
Thanks so much for your detailed analysis of Greenmount, as a fellow West Aussie, I was wondering how the calculations worked out for the length/elevation percentage of Greenmount. As the current owner of a 1988 TD42 GQ Patrol, and past owner of a few 2H Diesel 60 Series 'Cruisers that have towed 2 Tonne up and down Greenmount a few times....... it's interesting to see the calculations of the amount of power required to hold certain speeds up such long hills, which the old oil burners definitely struggle with in comparison to the BYD! 😂
@@docbob3030 Yes, driven Greenmount and Red Hill quite a few times in an old Patrol TD42 towing a 1.5 t empty trailer plus whatever we could fit in it. Had it at over 5 tonnes combined mass with loaded trailer once on the weighbridge at Red Hill tip and we were back to 2nd gear struggling up the hill... The replacement Colarado ute with 500 Nm torque from the VM engine and 6 sped auto is much better!
Thanks for the detailed explanation, it seems to be a well-engineered platform that is impressive for their first go at a UTE. It will be interesting to see how it develops over time.
I'm not a mechanical engineer, a lot of IT nerds like myself love to call themselves engineers, I'm not one of them. But after Paul's test on car expert I was left thinking what does the test actually mean in real terms. The tests are conducted well, but they don't really go into detail explaining the real world applications or scenarios. One question still remains unanswered, what about towing on soft sand? What kind of loads are we looking at there?
Pay-grades do not limit engineers in solving engineering tasks. As long as you have required ingenuity and experience in the given field of engineering, you have no other limitations. Let's uphold the proud name of our profession and let young apprentices whinge about pay-grades limiting their capabilities.
At about 9.50 is where i subscribed to your channel. It is refreshing to hear an expert say that the 3.5 tonne towing limit is a 'marketing thing'. Absolutely spot on.
@AutoExpertJC Great explanation mate…’if the battery is exhausted’ seems to be the order of the day and the focus of the CarExpert test. The whole point of the ICE recharging system is that it is constantly trying to top up the battery and that was not, from my interpretation of his test, used. He managed to deplete the battery to 13% before the ICE kicked in? Was the ICE not attempting to recharge the battery before that? He never once confirmed that this was the case. Instead he stated at the start of test that he wanted to test the Shark with a depleted battery, to see what the ‘edge case’ would be. It’s all very interesting to see what the car would do solely on the battery alone, on the implication that ‘this could happen to you’, but in real terms it is unlikely to happen unless you don’t understand how to use the car, drive like an idiot and run out of petrol, or deliberately try to stress test the car to see its limitations. To get to that level of battery (13%) without the ICE kicking in, you have to force the car into ‘max mode’ which is pure EV bypassing the ICE completely, and disregarding the ‘normal’ EV mode limit of 25% battery limit before ICE recharge. The Shark has a failsafe, that kicks in around 13%, to make sure the battery doesn’t get fully depleted, and kicks you out of ‘max mode’ to put you back into HEV to let the ICE assist. At 13% the batteries are not going to provide enough power to pull the car at any sort of decent speed so the ICE is taking almost the full load, as well as keeping the battery at a level of charge to sustain the car’s ability to function. Even in that state, I was still pretty impressed! To then compare this ‘failure’ against a Prado pulling load and stating that this is the reason why an ICE is better for towing was completely misleading. All he had to do was set the recharge SAVE point to somewhere reasonable, like 50% battery level, where the batteries still could have used their rated power and the ICE could have assisted and also utilised its 130kw to recharge the battery. Of course, it would have failed eventually, but so would any car when it runs out of fuel, but this might have been 100km down the road (or 200km with a full 60L tank?) with the ICE providing battery recharge and engine power assistance.
Agreed - the test was an awesome demonstration of good/robust failsafe provisions in the systematic powertrain design. Unfortunately, the conclusion they drew was that it was a bit shit. In my view, the real world will rarely, if ever, throw itself at the Shark 6 in that way, as you say.
@@AutoExpertJCwould love to see you do a video directly responding to CarExpert’s concerns about compromised off-road capability for the Shark. I’m hoping it’s only a teething issue that can be solved with better software and/or a good old fashioned rear differential…
One of my best Christmas presents this year... the chance to watch an intelligently reasoned UA-cam video, using correct formulae and units, and drawing reasonable conclusions... an unfortunately rare but very much appreciated occasion!! Thanks for the information and amusement through the year, but a special thanks for this video.. gave my Pedantic Engineer soul hope for the future!
John, I had a nagging question in my head throughout this video regarding stopping on a hill when the battery is completely depleted and then trying to start again. The stop-go road worker. But at 50 minutes in, you answered it. Thank you for such a thorough explanation of everything.
VERY Well done J.C. This is one of the best videos you’ve done, probably ever - facts and real world explanations rather than stupid cursing, name calling rants and other B.S. Please continue in the future in this vein, a really refreshing change! 👍 If so, I MIGHT even renew my subscription 😮🤣
Really puts it into perspective, that test is using almost the full power output capability of my ice suv and in all the towing I’ve done including climbing the mountains in Victoria it’s never even come close to using that much power.
There's a massive gulf between abstract specs and visceral experience of life. This lecture demonstrates bridging that gulf is an area of expertise in itself.
I am on the wait list for my shark having watched car expert video I was worried however after watching John’s analysis I’m now not concerned and still think I’ve made the right choice.
Thank you John. I was one of the commentators that Paul called out in his rebuttal video (using a silly voice). You have vindicated the comments I made about the conclusions that they came to after towing the dyno trailer. Obviously you're considerable more educated than I am and your knowledge of physics is far superior but we came to the same conclusions. I hope Paul reaches out to you to understand where they went wrong and how they can improve in future.
I doubt he will. Instead of coming out and saying hey you guys are right, we got some things wrong in our testing of the shark. Instead he's doubling down and being extremely unprofessional by mocking you and others.
This sounds more like a vehicle manufacturer actually did their homework, proposed an entirely reasonable maximum towing limit, and then had the audacity to fit out the vehicle such that it could manage said limit. The bastards.
Thanks for bringing physics and the real world into the conversation. My only comment on your findings is that at 35:30, when you worked out how long it would tow for (12 min), you were only allowing for the battery to power the vehicle, but as the ICE would be working as well, you'd actually have a significantly longer run time (not that you'd ever need it in Aus, as you said). 👍
Love how that guy at CE thought it was ridiculous that a comment was made that the BYD Shark beat the Ford Raptor in a drag race .. which it did in their tests .. not only that but it also outbraked the Raptor from 100-0 all while providing more features and greater versatility .. then proceeded to slag the BYD in theoretical bs in an attempt to discredit the BYD as a viable real world vehicle for Australians in Australia. For the record, hardly anyone buys a Ford Raptor to tow at maximum load .. what they do is buy the Ford Raptor for bragging rights of its accelerative abilities .. something the BYD bested at around a $40k saving .. that's got to sting a Raptor buyer based on expectations and ego .. and if you believe CE this all from a BYD that couldnt get up a small slope unladen in a pre- production vehicle that's being compared to retail vehicles. Merry Xmas to you John and your family.
The old Warrego highway going up to Toowoomba is one of the steepest roads I've encountered, on a semi regular basis. It's 10.5% The new bypass is 6% and that still feels pretty steep.
Moombi Hill on the New England highway feels like a lot more work towing a heavy trailer. I've driven up the Toowomba range a number of times with a heavy van on, but Moombi was more sustained.
@@jebwkeep going north a little and the elevation gain going towards Guyra is impressive too. It’s getting off topic of course, but I regularly ride, sometimes drive, up the Oxley highway, those twists are legendary among Aussie motorcyclists. The load however would be less than the several km sections we are talking about but perhaps more taxing overall due to the combination of duration and elevation. Regardless I am not racing for battery powered anything anytime soon, late adopters don’t suffer.
Merry Christmas John. I thoroughly enjoyed this one! The engineers at BYD certainly know what they’re doing and didn’t arrive at that drivetrain by accident. Probably the most interesting car I have seen for a long time and I am thinking of buying one after the bugs are ironed out. I am old enough and have towed enough to know that 3.5t is marketing, let’s see how long a hilux lasts towing at max capacity a day in day out 😂 once again a great analysis. Thanks for the hard work on this one.
Some examples of better Australian review sites: - Driving Enthusiast (Bret Davis - independent owned) - The Right Car (Matt Campbell - independent owned) - Chasing Cars (when Tom Baker or Curt does reviews, that said owned by an (garbage *personal view) Insurance company) Stay away from crap like "Car Sales editorial reviews" (pure garbage *again personal view), Carsguide (yeesh they have fallen off a cliff in the last 2 years) and Drive AU is yeah best less said the better save for James Ward, Sam Purcell and Susannah Guthrie), also 4x4 Media whenever they decide to do video content they do a decent if short form video reviews. Car Sauce? Too hyper for my taste, also check out "Re-driven' for used car perspective reviews.
@@351tgvomg, that's too many channels😮 Usually I watch vehicle reviews to learn about their specs, how the AWD system work, and to get the feel of interior and their quirks and features. Car Expert with their standard tests is typically enough for me. Tbh, I enjoy their content a lot more, and I watch JC when I'm especially interested in the vehicle and want an alternative opinion. John is a very negative person, he abuses negative sensationalism with his clickbaity thumbnails and titles, he's overly skeptical about all cars but select few he suspiciously chooses to defend, so if those channels are closer to what AEJC makes - maybe they're not for me. I prefer wide variety, nice outside footage and positive tone of channels like The Fast Lane Truck, Car Expert or WheelsBoy. And since I also watch religion, language and Pokémon content, checking out this many channels would be a huge commitment! If I ever come across their videos through algorithms, which is likely - I'll pay attention. But, sorry, I can not promise I'll search any of those.
While minor in the whole calculation, I'm fairly sure BYD said all Sharks comes with a 2500kg towbar as standard from factory, so there may not be a need to add the 50kg to the butcher paper calculation.
Hey John I’ve been enjoying your content for a longtime. Nearly every ball sack I know watches you or knows of you. I am surprised that you don’t have more subscribers because your content has always been excellent and very useful. I see too many nob jockeys out there with numbers that only baffle my mind. Thanks for the content mate. Cheers
By way of comparison, the ultimate towing test used by TFL Trucks in the USA is the tow from Silverthorne, Colorado to the Eisenhower Tunnel on Interstate 70. Elevation goes from 8300 to 11100 feet in 8 miles, for an average grade of 6.6%. Owing to the high elevation, turbocharged vehicles do better than naturally aspirated vehicles. The SAE standard towing test J2807 is based in part on using the Davis Dam Grade, on Rt 68 out of Bullhead City, Arizona. This road climbs 3500 feet in 11 miles. To pass the test, a fully-laden truck has to be able to climb the grade at a minimum of 40 mph on a 100F day with the air conditioning on.
Motorcyclist who loves twisty mountain roads here... can confirm trailers are bloody slow at the best of times and speed limits are down to 40 in some places, not a great many above 70kms/hr
So much information but nothing on the barrow full of strippers! What type was the barrow, one wheel or 2 wheel? Brickies barrow or garden barrow. Are the strippers regular size or over size...or are they dwarfs? These details are far more interesting than an evaluation of a Burn Your Driveway sardine.
Since the very first video from CarExpert on the Shark I felt some "I wish this thing fails" vibe, even he was praising it on some parts of the video. Could it be because he mentioned he just bought a Ford Raptor and the Shark does practically the same for almost half of the price?
a dynamomter measures forces. there are engine dyno, chassis dyno, dynamometers for rating locomotives and ones for inspecting rail lines. there is even ones for measuring hand strength.
Hi John, really enjoyed the video. I'm a psychologist by profession, but i was supposed to be an engineer (very long story and not worth explaining). Physics was my favourite sybject back in high school and your 'lesson' was a brilliant refresher. Loved it. As an aside, I also enjoy Paul's videos, but for different reasons. While Paul didn't fully (or accurately) explain the real world ramifications of his findings, what he usually does well is standardise his road tests in order to compare apples with apples. He tries to create a controlled environment. Unfortunately, this particular 'test', while interesting, is a bit like the old boiled egg being "sucked" into a glass bottle (i.e., a nice bit of theatre, but then you're left with a bit of a mess for no net gain). I'm keen to drive a Shark but, like you, I think I'll wait until the first tranche of Sharks have been sold and abused and any genuine issues come to light.
@jo300hn What the?? I've done a couple of meaningful things, I guess. Deployed a few times as an AAPsych Officer in support of Australian troops. Helped reform ADF mental health services later in my career. Contributed to DVA reforms. Ran a community mental health service. Saved a few lives, I believe. Or at least that's what the clients themselves later told me. So, I dunno, I guess a few mildly significant and almost worthwhile things along the way.
John, I'm interested in parralel hybrids and always wondered why they never got the take up that series hybrids have. This design is ingenious with the engine also connecting via clutch for open road travel...seems a great fit for tradies and camping with a 30kwh battery and 100kW genset under the bonnet. I thought Paul was a bit harsh with the trailer dyno but his offroad hill start tests are something I'd like to understand better before buying one. Couple of points for consideration: 1. Regarding your downhill braking my understanding is that KE = 1/2(mV^2) means doubling velocity actually quadruples KE not doubles as you state 2. While I believe it is an unlikely scenario for most situations, my understanding from the reviews is that the engine can only engage to directly drive the front axle at 70kmph...below that some charge will be required to get the vehicle to the 70kmph threshold. 3. While not many owners would face this, driving long distances on sand with caravan in tow might simulate the hill scenario? Keep up the good work mate, I enjoy your reviews. Adam
I greatly appreciated your video and I gave it a like. I concur with your observation regarding the unrealistic nature of the testing procedures demonstrated in the car expert video. However, I believe there is an important consideration you may have overlooked: this particular test was conducted across multiple vehicle models, not exclusively on the BYD. The results showed varying levels of performance among different vehicles, with some failing to meet the criteria while others demonstrated satisfactory performance. The value of this testing lies in its consistency as a comparative tool, despite its limitations in replicating real-world conditions. To illustrate this point, I can share my personal experience: my current vehicle (MUX) did not meet the test requirements, whereas my previous vehicle (Patrol) exceeded expectations significantly. While I acknowledge the testing methodology has its flaws - particularly regarding aspects such as battery charge level management - its primary merit lies in providing a standardized basis for comparison across different vehicles.
The Davis Dam profile (in USA) is used for GCM certification in oz. This grade equates to about 2.9 deg for a bit less than 18.3km (11.4miles) at 100kmph we are looking at something like 11 minutes of this grade It looks to me like the 3kN drag may have been selected to simulate full GCM on something like the grade required for GCM certification. What I would have been interested in is, "with a "depleted" battery, what is the starting gradabiity at GCM and what speed would the combination accelerate to up the notional 3%grade" - this would be a severe test of the electric drive system going from engine to charger to electric motors ( as opposed to running on direct mechanical drive from engine to front axle) SAE J2807 (Table 3is a good summary,) talks of the performance assessment on the Davis Dam profile grade ( and nicely) gives a profile of the grade and the GCM laden peformance criteria which includes not droping below 40mph on the grade as well as on the flat acceleratoin requirments good talk, well explained Had a chuckle re "there is no road in Australia that does that (1000m in 20km) - on a different note of GCM upgrade certification - we are relegated to using the Tow trailers to simulate Davis Dam hill Profile inthe USA to meet the OZ certification requirments.
11:45 slight correction (or I might be misunderstanding what you said), a vehicle at 100kmh doesn't have twice the kenetic energy as a similar vehicle at 50kmh, it is has 4 times (KE = 1/2mv^2). This is why a car can do emergency stops all day at 40kmh, but will cook brakes if done on a race track. The faster the velocity (or greater the mass), the exponentially harder the brakes have to deal with the vehicle.
The road entering Yosemite National Park from the east, is 19 km of 8% grade with just two switchbacks, so each straight stretch is about 6.3 km. Thousands of trailers behind pickup trucks make that up and down every year. In my case, I was going down that as I had climbed in on Priest Grade which is a tow killer. My truck and trailer are 11.4 kiloton. My diesel exhaust brake makes 130 hp of retarding force which allowed me to maintain 50kmh downhill without touching the brakes except two quick stabs to slow down for the switchbacks. Most roads made for heavy hauling traffic are limited to 8%. The speeds in the USA are higher in general up to 136 kmh on some freeways. Of course there are many sections of big hill or mountain roads that are 20% grades. When I was doing electric vehicles I always designed them to be able to do a standing start with GCWR or more usually much more on a 20% grade. That was not a good criteria for underwater electric vehicles, LOL I have been working on electric vehicles of one type or another since 1964. Land, sea and air.
The test is like driving rings around ascending MT Everest at 100km/hr until the Combustion engine could not provide enough energy to the wheels or battery to mantain 100km/hr, the system cant mantain the required power at that constant workload at 100km/hr. You hit the nail on the head, what hill and what load is THAT demanding in Australia?
For me the shark would be perfect. Takes shyte to skips, picks up mor shyte from IKEA, moves house once in a while and when I camp I do wild camping, I don't drag my house behind me, even though I live in a cold climate. The rest of the year I grind to work and back endlessly and some fuel savings work for me.
There is no real world road going uphill forever with 100km speed limit. Most countries' highway maximum gradient design limit is 6 degrees. In reality most highway climb are at 2-4.5 degrees. you will rarely encounter a highway climb steeper above 5.
@@ComputerGeeks-R-Us do they all have 60miles/hr speed limits? To me the real concern is when you are towing a 5500pound trailer, you wanna drive a tap lower than the speed limit just so it is easier remain in control, it is safer for you and the people in cars around you. Because when you lose control of that trailer behind you, it is not gonna end well.
So it can tow, and up hills at speeds acceptable enough for the small duration they typically are. Once you get to the top of the hill, it'll regenerate down the other side so not biggie there. My primary concern around this vehicle is it's performance in sandy beaches for 4wding. Typically there are quite high gradient soft sandy 4wd tracks around WA and this car is my prime #1 contender for a replacement to my existing Sorento and we're wanting to add beach and sandy 4wds to our weekend and holiday adventures. Also a future trip to Uluru pulling the camper and my concern here is part availability if something goes wrong on those really vibratey dirt roads. How will it go with those?
So it takes 150KW to do the 3kn tow test, about the max power of a Hilux. When have anyone driven a Hilux with foot to the floor for over 20 mintes at a time? Not sure what the test is trying to show
I had a 110hp Diesel Hilux for a few months and I had that thing floored constantly. If you tow something with such a car, you go full throttle all the time.
It takes about 150kW to punt the BYD against 3kN at 100km/h. The power will vary with the speed, dude. Agreed that nobody rund a Hilux like that, mainly because the roads to enable such driving don't exist.
Europe is mentioned. The long hill climbs on the Spanish motorway net work will test the cars abilities. Or the mountainous Balkans, lots of steep hills there. Both locations give the 38 ton trucks a good workout. Spain is all about engine power to maintain speed and the Balkans is all about gears and power. The EV Renault truck has no problems in the mountains, but it douse have gears! The BYD car may have problems with Traction motor overheating and definitely with break temperature!
Pretty basic ghetto engineering, you mean. I always just ask myself: What would Newton say about this? (Einstein and Newton agreed on almost everything, except what happens when you go really fast.)
It’d be interesting to know what the electrical generation output of the ice is when it was going up said incline @ below 70 kph fully loaded with a depleted battery and the ice can’t engage to help drive the axle ( and even if it could the gearing would render it pretty well useless )
Love your channel overall. Great educational stuff delivered with quite humorous sarcasm which for the most part is great with the exception of one small part and that is the pretty much regular bashing of the caravan community (btw, I am not one so I am not being precious). It’s comes across to me at least as a bit cruel to a sizeable community of people in this country. Only my opinion but I personally would like to see it dialled back a bit. Otherwise a fantastic channel. Thanks John.😊
well said John this video goes in-depth and actually without doing the controlled testing yourself you have shown that the shark 6 has ability based on hard statistical numbers and proper research. While I agree with most of it my issue is real world scenario lets say from Richmond to Lithgow on Bells Line, that is roughly 87km nearly 86% uphill (I don't know the gradient / degrees in certain sections) but I do know what the speed limits are and it would make for a good real world test, anyone game to try? I know with the Everest towing 2.3T (my car carrying trailer + one of my old Falcons) with transmission in manual mode (so I can control the gear ratio), air ccn on, the fuel consumption is apprx 17L. for that section of road. As for Car Expert, he was no good at giving advice and yes there are still videos on now Drive YT) with you Paul talking about the Ford Territory way back in 2011 ... ah those videos are gold John. Anyway good work all round.
I don't see how the fuel consumption is that relevant - if you've got $60k for the car and $60k for the effluent box, you can afford any amount of fuel. What metters is overall ability and fit for purpose. Even if the fuel of the Bells Line run is greater, it would be offset by the daily commute savings at other times.
@@AutoExpertJC - relevant for business purposes, not everyone tows a caravan and as such for business purposes logs have to be kept for accountants when sending returns to the ATO otherwise you / business could be audited and no one wants that. Between your hard numbers theoretical video and Pauls practical (technical lab) testing video all of us interested observers now have a much better understanding of the Shark 6, that is a good thing.
John, thoroughly enjoyed your analysis. underestimate "car expert" at your peril. He engineered a perfect shitstorm. It's clickbait 101 by being both controversial and contrary- it's the stuff that the algorithms get trouser tents over.
They did that and it’s was fantastic, so they Jerry rigged a situation to try to make it look bad. Once Toyota start selling their new models with BYD drivetrains they will be fantastic all of a sudden.
Not even half way in and you're talking more sense than anyone else I've seen discussing this matter. Watching the other video, my first thought was "how long a hill is that?" Some rough numbers I did was like 14km long to deplete the battery from full....
Similar calculations have been made in China for the BYD Song Plus FWD version (compact SUV, 81kW engine). The conclusion is that if it is fully loaded to maximum weight, then climbs at 120km/h (the speed limit on Chinese highways) and 3% gradient (the maximum gradient in Chinese highway construction standards), it will deplete its battery in one or two hours. At this rate of ascent, it can reach the summit of Mount Qomolangma (also known as Mount Everest in the West) from sea level in less than 3 hours!
Have to say i'm not a big believer in dynos results, they can basically be controlled & therefore don't give seat of the pants results, as you say we don't have long straight hills with 100klm speed limits. I would prefer a seat of the pants test, something like Nyora to Big River a 2hr 29min 149klm trip, with last 40 Klm on the Woods Point road being a lot of corners & a reasonable gradient . I would like to know how it goes with the on again off again driving going up this road ?
In the United States, we have something called the Ike Gauntlet. It's a "towing test" and features over 11,000 ft elevation, 8 miles, 7% grade. It's a section of I-70 in the Colorado Rockies. Maybe BYD should send one of their ute's to 'AMERICA and let the TFLT people have a go with it and see what happens. I'd love to see AE/JC and TFLT have a joint video, testing something like this. :D
the issue with TFL is Roman is a douchbag. As for the tow test they do, cant fault the test, they have the highway to do it from (note: USA State Colorado) Silverthorne (west) to the Eisenhower tunnel (east) at speed limit 98km/h (or for the Americans 60MPH) 7% gradient, they can also go the opposite way and test the brakes/regen/ride, I'm thinking here in Australia we don't have anything thing like that that comes to mind, maybe Kings Highway from Batemans Bay to Braidwood (NSW) but that highway is not 100km/h from memory I think its speed limited to 80km/h and NSW Police maintain a presence there so no speeding etc.
Very impressive JC. Spells it out. My thoughts on this BYD is that the batteries will have a short service life due to the design of the entire power train.They appear ot be worked to death. I guess this will be revealed perhaps in the fullness of time.
For me , I think this is John at his best .. I had put my deposit on this new truck and held off on the first batch. My concerns about the Shark's inability to take off on Pauls Dirt Hill start test. ....Pauls tow test didnt phase me because it kept towing at 70kph .. It didnt Fail . BYD , sort out that Hill start issue( 10-15 deg with max GCM ( My V6 Amarok can do it , though the truck needs to be at max GVM so that it is heavier than the trailer ) and Im back on board .. Until then , Ill be watching ..
There is one situation, real world, where you could encounter loads similar to or exceeding what the feared dyno-trailer puts out, but you never see them any more. The old aluminium can recycling trailers... Behind a van punching a nice big hole in the air, no problem. Behind a smaller car and with a certain % of ally can fill, once you pick up some speed those can get blown to the back of the trailer and act as an airbrake. I learned about that when I was 8 years old when dad had to tow one behind our VH Commodore with 253 V8, and it couldnt' do it very well without overheating, but the early 80's Mitusbishi Express, no problem. Had the mechanics at the local Holden dealer in fits of rage every Monday morning when the Commode rolled in again after a failed weekend towing attempt. In the dyno-trailer case, I'd wonder if running the ICE as a pure generator, and not hobbling it by locking it to the axle speed, and let the electric motors at it's whole maximum 135kW, would it reach 100km/h under the 3kN load? How much more engine would they need to ace this test as a middle finger salute to journalistic idiocy?
I'd like to know what revs the ICE is doing at 60 or 100kmh while driving the shark. What rpm would a 2.0L Ranger be doing on an equivalent gradient towing 2.5T. If you held the same gear, what rpm would it be doing at 100kmh?
Can you imagine towing a 2.5T van with a Honda Civic? Some of those have a 1.5L Turbo. The Honda actually has less power than the BYD, which is surprising to me considering Honda's technology, they even had F1 cars FFS.
Thank you so much for your true expert analysis a breath of proverbial fresh air compared to watching the Car expert cynical response to comments directed to them.Again your engineering expertise really counts😃💪
Hey Steven, thank you. It's really just a contest of ideas. I thought their experiment was great. However, I felt, at times, their conclusions were a bit shit.
Pretty solid video and engineering explanation there John. One of your best.
I've done up a spreadsheet recently when I did some real world hill climb tests in our PHEV and compared it to the spreadsheet to refine the numbers. Sorry, I'm a test and measurement engineer so can't help myself, but I usually test big stuff, such as Iron Ore haul trucks, ships and large fixed plant like power generation etc...
Your results are similar to my estimations for towing with a GCM loaded Shark. For example, my local reference hill (Greenmount hill, Perth) is about 260 m elevation change in 5.8 km, giving a fairly consistent grade of 4.5 %. Not crazy steep, but a typical real test of trucks and light vehicles towing heavy loads. I work it out that you need about 110 kW to hold 100 kmh up that hill using about 6.4 kWhr of battery power to do so. So under the continuous rated power (150 kW) of the Shark electrical system and using a bit under 25% of the battery capacity to make the climb. So the Shark probably can do that hill at CGM at 100 kmh on EV mode only without firing up the engine. For comparison, the 3 kN trailer dyne test works out to be around 116 kW power required at 100 kmh, based on my aerodynamic assumptions, which are reasonably accurate for the Shark, but could be quite a bit out for the trailer, depending on what size and shape your trailer presents to the wind. So the max GCM plus 3kN trailer dyne test works out as a little over 4.5% gradient based on my calcs, which is very similar to your result, resulting from essentially the same 'bare knuckle physics' estimations we are applying, though via different calculation pathways.
But as you say, finding such a hill long enough and steep enough and with a 100 kmh limit is no easy thing to do in Australia. In fact, Greenmount hill (my test hill) has an 80 kmh limit, and it's the main East-West route for traffic on the Great Eastern Hwy out of Perth, so has many a truck grinding it's way up the hill day and night. So the whole 'it should maintain 100 kmh at all times' mentality is just not how heavy towing up real hills is done.
So there is no problem with the Sharks towing performance, for all the reasons you rightly conclude.
Thanks so much for your detailed analysis of Greenmount, as a fellow West Aussie, I was wondering how the calculations worked out for the length/elevation percentage of Greenmount.
As the current owner of a 1988 TD42 GQ Patrol, and past owner of a few 2H Diesel 60 Series 'Cruisers that have towed 2 Tonne up and down Greenmount a few times....... it's interesting to see the calculations of the amount of power required to hold certain speeds up such long hills, which the old oil burners definitely struggle with in comparison to the BYD! 😂
@@docbob3030 Yes, driven Greenmount and Red Hill quite a few times in an old Patrol TD42 towing a 1.5 t empty trailer plus whatever we could fit in it. Had it at over 5 tonnes combined mass with loaded trailer once on the weighbridge at Red Hill tip and we were back to 2nd gear struggling up the hill... The replacement Colarado ute with 500 Nm torque from the VM engine and 6 sped auto is much better!
John is so much better when he cuts out the rubbish dramatics. Impressive video.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, it seems to be a well-engineered platform that is impressive for their first go at a UTE. It will be interesting to see how it develops over time.
100% Agree.
As an engineer myself, I found the review instructional because as is, it was above my pay-grade. Brilliant work John. Thanks
Thank you. I just asked Isaac Newton how he would feel about it, and I went with that.
I'm not a mechanical engineer, a lot of IT nerds like myself love to call themselves engineers, I'm not one of them. But after Paul's test on car expert I was left thinking what does the test actually mean in real terms. The tests are conducted well, but they don't really go into detail explaining the real world applications or scenarios. One question still remains unanswered, what about towing on soft sand? What kind of loads are we looking at there?
Pay-grades do not limit engineers in solving engineering tasks. As long as you have required ingenuity and experience in the given field of engineering, you have no other limitations. Let's uphold the proud name of our profession and let young apprentices whinge about pay-grades limiting their capabilities.
At about 9.50 is where i subscribed to your channel. It is refreshing to hear an expert say that the 3.5 tonne towing limit is a 'marketing thing'. Absolutely spot on.
You know this is getting serious when the butcher's paper comes out...
It's either that or a Glock 40 Gen IV...
@AutoExpertJC Great explanation mate…’if the battery is exhausted’ seems to be the order of the day and the focus of the CarExpert test. The whole point of the ICE recharging system is that it is constantly trying to top up the battery and that was not, from my interpretation of his test, used. He managed to deplete the battery to 13% before the ICE kicked in? Was the ICE not attempting to recharge the battery before that? He never once confirmed that this was the case. Instead he stated at the start of test that he wanted to test the Shark with a depleted battery, to see what the ‘edge case’ would be. It’s all very interesting to see what the car would do solely on the battery alone, on the implication that ‘this could happen to you’, but in real terms it is unlikely to happen unless you don’t understand how to use the car, drive like an idiot and run out of petrol, or deliberately try to stress test the car to see its limitations. To get to that level of battery (13%) without the ICE kicking in, you have to force the car into ‘max mode’ which is pure EV bypassing the ICE completely, and disregarding the ‘normal’ EV mode limit of 25% battery limit before ICE recharge. The Shark has a failsafe, that kicks in around 13%, to make sure the battery doesn’t get fully depleted, and kicks you out of ‘max mode’ to put you back into HEV to let the ICE assist. At 13% the batteries are not going to provide enough power to pull the car at any sort of decent speed so the ICE is taking almost the full load, as well as keeping the battery at a level of charge to sustain the car’s ability to function. Even in that state, I was still pretty impressed!
To then compare this ‘failure’ against a Prado pulling load and stating that this is the reason why an ICE is better for towing was completely misleading. All he had to do was set the recharge SAVE point to somewhere reasonable, like 50% battery level, where the batteries still could have used their rated power and the ICE could have assisted and also utilised its 130kw to recharge the battery. Of course, it would have failed eventually, but so would any car when it runs out of fuel, but this might have been 100km down the road (or 200km with a full 60L tank?) with the ICE providing battery recharge and engine power assistance.
Agreed - the test was an awesome demonstration of good/robust failsafe provisions in the systematic powertrain design. Unfortunately, the conclusion they drew was that it was a bit shit. In my view, the real world will rarely, if ever, throw itself at the Shark 6 in that way, as you say.
@@AutoExpertJCwould love to see you do a video directly responding to CarExpert’s concerns about compromised off-road capability for the Shark. I’m hoping it’s only a teething issue that can be solved with better software and/or a good old fashioned rear differential…
@@tim9241no point until the conforming example is delivered. This wasn’t that
This video was a worthwhile watch in its entirety . . . well done
Here John illustrates the difference between an Engineer and a car Journalist 😊
actually Paul is an engineer grad also (have no idea what field) , the problem is Paul was never good at giving "Advice" and is is no "Expert".
@@351tgv Perhaps a bioengineer.
Sales engineer
Paul is a Mechanical Engineer as well as a car Journalist 😊
Same as old mate here
@@351tgvlets rephrase it then. "The difference between a competent engineer and a incompetent one"
Wishing you and your family all the best, and thank you for all the entertainment and education in 2024.
You're welcome, Jamie - all the best to you also mate.
@@AutoExpertJCFirst BYD shark is not PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Eelectric Vehicle) but
EREV ( Range extender series plug-in hybrid ).
One of my best Christmas presents this year... the chance to watch an intelligently reasoned UA-cam video, using correct formulae and units, and drawing reasonable conclusions... an unfortunately rare but very much appreciated occasion!!
Thanks for the information and amusement through the year, but a special thanks for this video.. gave my Pedantic Engineer soul hope for the future!
John, I had a nagging question in my head throughout this video regarding stopping on a hill when the battery is completely depleted and then trying to start again. The stop-go road worker. But at 50 minutes in, you answered it. Thank you for such a thorough explanation of everything.
John, thanks for all the content this year.
Merry Christmas and all the very best for 2025!
And to you mate - thanks for watching.
VERY Well done J.C.
This is one of the best videos you’ve done, probably ever - facts and real world explanations rather than stupid cursing, name calling rants and other B.S.
Please continue in the future in this vein, a really refreshing change! 👍
If so, I MIGHT even renew my subscription 😮🤣
Really puts it into perspective, that test is using almost the full power output capability of my ice suv and in all the towing I’ve done including climbing the mountains in Victoria it’s never even come close to using that much power.
Yep. It's a very severe test.
Yep, there were a few ICE utes that couldn't even get to 100km/h in that 3kn test
@@AutoExpertJCFirst BYD shark is not PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Eelectric Vehicle) but
EREV ( Range extender series plug-in hybrid ).
John does no nonsense physics like a pro and even makes it fun and watchable
There's a massive gulf between abstract specs and visceral experience of life. This lecture demonstrates bridging that gulf is an area of expertise in itself.
just what I was thinking.
Their experiment was awesome, and fascinating. In my view, however, their conclusions were, at times, shit.
@@AutoExpertJC They conducted the experiment without understanding what they were actually doing.
@@AutoExpertJCFirst BYD shark is not PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Eelectric Vehicle) but
EREV ( Range extender series plug-in hybrid ).
I honestly felt I learnt more in this 1 video than my whole VCE physics classes.
Please do more 🎉
Magic timing John. Merry Christmas to you, wife number 6 (7?) and your army of cicadas. From Sambo in Banjo Country.
Likewise, Sambo. All the very best mate.
I am on the wait list for my shark having watched car expert video I was worried however after watching John’s analysis I’m now not concerned and still think I’ve made the right choice.
How long is the wait?
Thank you John. I was one of the commentators that Paul called out in his rebuttal video (using a silly voice). You have vindicated the comments I made about the conclusions that they came to after towing the dyno trailer. Obviously you're considerable more educated than I am and your knowledge of physics is far superior but we came to the same conclusions. I hope Paul reaches out to you to understand where they went wrong and how they can improve in future.
I doubt he will. Instead of coming out and saying hey you guys are right, we got some things wrong in our testing of the shark. Instead he's doubling down and being extremely unprofessional by mocking you and others.
This sounds more like a vehicle manufacturer actually did their homework, proposed an entirely reasonable maximum towing limit, and then had the audacity to fit out the vehicle such that it could manage said limit. The bastards.
I went over my rated watch time for this video(20-30mins), but well worth it well done mate.👏
Thanks for bringing physics and the real world into the conversation. My only comment on your findings is that at 35:30, when you worked out how long it would tow for (12 min), you were only allowing for the battery to power the vehicle, but as the ICE would be working as well, you'd actually have a significantly longer run time (not that you'd ever need it in Aus, as you said). 👍
Love how that guy at CE thought it was ridiculous that a comment was made that the BYD Shark beat the Ford Raptor in a drag race .. which it did in their tests .. not only that but it also outbraked the Raptor from 100-0 all while providing more features and greater versatility .. then proceeded to slag the BYD in theoretical bs in an attempt to discredit the BYD as a viable real world vehicle for Australians in Australia. For the record, hardly anyone buys a Ford Raptor to tow at maximum load .. what they do is buy the Ford Raptor for bragging rights of its accelerative abilities .. something the BYD bested at around a $40k saving .. that's got to sting a Raptor buyer based on expectations and ego .. and if you believe CE this all from a BYD that couldnt get up a small slope unladen in a pre- production vehicle that's being compared to retail vehicles.
Merry Xmas to you John and your family.
The old Warrego highway going up to Toowoomba is one of the steepest roads I've encountered, on a semi regular basis. It's 10.5%
The new bypass is 6% and that still feels pretty steep.
Only a short distance though.
Moombi Hill on the New England highway feels like a lot more work towing a heavy trailer. I've driven up the Toowomba range a number of times with a heavy van on, but Moombi was more sustained.
@@jebwkeep going north a little and the elevation gain going towards Guyra is impressive too. It’s getting off topic of course, but I regularly ride, sometimes drive, up the Oxley highway, those twists are legendary among Aussie motorcyclists. The load however would be less than the several km sections we are talking about but perhaps more taxing overall due to the combination of duration and elevation. Regardless I am not racing for battery powered anything anytime soon, late adopters don’t suffer.
Merry Christmas John. I thoroughly enjoyed this one! The engineers at BYD certainly know what they’re doing and didn’t arrive at that drivetrain by accident. Probably the most interesting car I have seen for a long time and I am thinking of buying one after the bugs are ironed out. I am old enough and have towed enough to know that 3.5t is marketing, let’s see how long a hilux lasts towing at max capacity a day in day out 😂 once again a great analysis. Thanks for the hard work on this one.
I could listen to you talk like this for hours. So entertaining and informative
...said none of my ex-wives ever.
But thank you.
Excellent presentation. People are obsessed with power for towing, but in reality vehicle stability and braking performance are far more important.
Thankyou, well explained. Your video making has improved greatly. You have won me back as a subscriber.
Outstanding John! Thank you from Straya...
Merry Xmas John. Always informative and interesting, thank you.
Thank you David. All the best to you and yours also mate.
Wow, what a lecture!!
I can say I learned something new today.
But Car Expert is one of the best automotive youtube channels out there, how can they be wrong?!😮😮😮
Some examples of better Australian review sites:
- Driving Enthusiast (Bret Davis - independent owned)
- The Right Car (Matt Campbell - independent owned)
- Chasing Cars (when Tom Baker or Curt does reviews, that said owned by an (garbage *personal view) Insurance company)
Stay away from crap like "Car Sales editorial reviews" (pure garbage *again personal view), Carsguide (yeesh they have fallen off a cliff in the last 2 years) and Drive AU is yeah best less said the better save for James Ward, Sam Purcell and Susannah Guthrie), also 4x4 Media whenever they decide to do video content they do a decent if short form video reviews. Car Sauce? Too hyper for my taste, also check out "Re-driven' for used car perspective reviews.
@@351tgvomg, that's too many channels😮 Usually I watch vehicle reviews to learn about their specs, how the AWD system work, and to get the feel of interior and their quirks and features. Car Expert with their standard tests is typically enough for me. Tbh, I enjoy their content a lot more, and I watch JC when I'm especially interested in the vehicle and want an alternative opinion. John is a very negative person, he abuses negative sensationalism with his clickbaity thumbnails and titles, he's overly skeptical about all cars but select few he suspiciously chooses to defend, so if those channels are closer to what AEJC makes - maybe they're not for me. I prefer wide variety, nice outside footage and positive tone of channels like The Fast Lane Truck, Car Expert or WheelsBoy. And since I also watch religion, language and Pokémon content, checking out this many channels would be a huge commitment!
If I ever come across their videos through algorithms, which is likely - I'll pay attention. But, sorry, I can not promise I'll search any of those.
Loved the review of my first year engineering courses as I had forgotten everything. Cheers for enjoyable video full of bare knuckle physics
Nice work and really inspires me to study engineering!!
While minor in the whole calculation, I'm fairly sure BYD said all Sharks comes with a 2500kg towbar as standard from factory, so there may not be a need to add the 50kg to the butcher paper calculation.
Fair point. Thank you.
@@AutoExpertJCFirst BYD shark is not PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Eelectric Vehicle) but
EREV ( Range extender series plug-in hybrid ).
That's untrue. The ICE also drives the front transaxle directly, at times.
Great video mate. Shark comes standard with a tow bar which should make the payload 540kgs
Thanks for letting me know.
One of your best videos. 👍👍👍
Thanks John.Merry Christmas
Hey John I’ve been enjoying your content for a longtime. Nearly every ball sack I know watches you or knows of you. I am surprised that you don’t have more subscribers because your content has always been excellent and very useful. I see too many nob jockeys out there with numbers that only baffle my mind. Thanks for the content mate. Cheers
Brilliant analysis!!! Merry Christmas !!
Thank you. Likewise.
Regardless of whether or not the Shark is any good the content it has inspired has been a fun ride.
Agreed. Uplifting, only above the waist.
I didn't realize that Dingo Piss Creek was tidal.
It's not, but the Golden Billabong is at the confluence.
@@AutoExpertJC 🤔
@@AutoExpertJC Sounds like there might be a Golden Shower at the effluence I mean, CONFLUENCE! - of Golden Billabong and Dingo Piss Creek!
It depends on the waxing and waning of the beer supply I believe 🍺
John, awesome presentation.. Loved the old school butchers paper..
By way of comparison, the ultimate towing test used by TFL Trucks in the USA is the tow from Silverthorne, Colorado to the Eisenhower Tunnel on Interstate 70. Elevation goes from 8300 to 11100 feet in 8 miles, for an average grade of 6.6%. Owing to the high elevation, turbocharged vehicles do better than naturally aspirated vehicles.
The SAE standard towing test J2807 is based in part on using the Davis Dam Grade, on Rt 68 out of Bullhead City, Arizona. This road climbs 3500 feet in 11 miles. To pass the test, a fully-laden truck has to be able to climb the grade at a minimum of 40 mph on a 100F day with the air conditioning on.
Motorcyclist who loves twisty mountain roads here... can confirm trailers are bloody slow at the best of times and speed limits are down to 40 in some places, not a great many above 70kms/hr
Merry Christmas Brother Love your Maths
Thank you. Merry Christmas to you also.
So much information but nothing on the barrow full of strippers! What type was the barrow, one wheel or 2 wheel? Brickies barrow or garden barrow. Are the strippers regular size or over size...or are they dwarfs? These details are far more interesting than an evaluation of a Burn Your Driveway sardine.
Strippers are a commodity. Typically sold for hire by the barrow. (That's on the wholesale side of the business.)
Happy Christmas to you and your family
Aye. Awesome look into that experiment.
Merry Christmas John.
May 2025 be interesting ... in a good way.
Thank you very much. Best regards to you too mate.
It felt almost like my parents fighting😢 Both Paul and John are awesome, and I felt super uneasy listening in which ways Paul was wrong.
I must say, that is one nice looking tap wrench
It's the best executed shit design ever.
Starrett are good tools. My oldest is a tap wrench I bought 50+ years ago.
I like my gear wrench ratchet ones.
They're all pretty crap, but some are better than others.
Merry Christmas John.
Since the very first video from CarExpert on the Shark I felt some "I wish this thing fails" vibe, even he was praising it on some parts of the video. Could it be because he mentioned he just bought a Ford Raptor and the Shark does practically the same for almost half of the price?
Rubbish.
a dynamomter measures forces. there are engine dyno, chassis dyno, dynamometers for rating locomotives and ones for inspecting rail lines. there is even ones for measuring hand strength.
Cicadas in the background? Love the Aussie summer! ❤
Yes - they're deafening this year. Real 'cone of silence' stuff.
Hi John, really enjoyed the video. I'm a psychologist by profession, but i was supposed to be an engineer (very long story and not worth explaining). Physics was my favourite sybject back in high school and your 'lesson' was a brilliant refresher. Loved it. As an aside, I also enjoy Paul's videos, but for different reasons. While Paul didn't fully (or accurately) explain the real world ramifications of his findings, what he usually does well is standardise his road tests in order to compare apples with apples. He tries to create a controlled environment. Unfortunately, this particular 'test', while interesting, is a bit like the old boiled egg being "sucked" into a glass bottle (i.e., a nice bit of theatre, but then you're left with a bit of a mess for no net gain). I'm keen to drive a Shark but, like you, I think I'll wait until the first tranche of Sharks have been sold and abused and any genuine issues come to light.
So you've never done anything useful with your education and vocation, I'm sure that causes regrets in those stirring wee small hours.
@jo300hn What the?? I've done a couple of meaningful things, I guess. Deployed a few times as an AAPsych Officer in support of Australian troops. Helped reform ADF mental health services later in my career. Contributed to DVA reforms. Ran a community mental health service. Saved a few lives, I believe. Or at least that's what the clients themselves later told me. So, I dunno, I guess a few mildly significant and almost worthwhile things along the way.
I couldn't think of a better way to spend Christmas Eve than doing mental gymnastics with John.
Nude mental gymnastics, dude - try to keep up. (It's in the fine print.)
John, I'm interested in parralel hybrids and always wondered why they never got the take up that series hybrids have. This design is ingenious with the engine also connecting via clutch for open road travel...seems a great fit for tradies and camping with a 30kwh battery and 100kW genset under the bonnet. I thought Paul was a bit harsh with the trailer dyno but his offroad hill start tests are something I'd like to understand better before buying one.
Couple of points for consideration:
1. Regarding your downhill braking my understanding is that KE = 1/2(mV^2) means doubling velocity actually quadruples KE not doubles as you state
2. While I believe it is an unlikely scenario for most situations, my understanding from the reviews is that the engine can only engage to directly drive the front axle at 70kmph...below that some charge will be required to get the vehicle to the 70kmph threshold.
3. While not many owners would face this, driving long distances on sand with caravan in tow might simulate the hill scenario?
Keep up the good work mate, I enjoy your reviews.
Adam
Brilliant Video. Cannot say more but thank you.
I greatly appreciated your video and I gave it a like. I concur with your observation regarding the unrealistic nature of the testing procedures demonstrated in the car expert video. However, I believe there is an important consideration you may have overlooked: this particular test was conducted across multiple vehicle models, not exclusively on the BYD. The results showed varying levels of performance among different vehicles, with some failing to meet the criteria while others demonstrated satisfactory performance.
The value of this testing lies in its consistency as a comparative tool, despite its limitations in replicating real-world conditions. To illustrate this point, I can share my personal experience: my current vehicle (MUX) did not meet the test requirements, whereas my previous vehicle (Patrol) exceeded expectations significantly. While I acknowledge the testing methodology has its flaws - particularly regarding aspects such as battery charge level management - its primary merit lies in providing a standardized basis for comparison across different vehicles.
What use is a test if it bares zero relation to any real world scenario? May as well tow 747s along runways as a test.
@@stusue9733 Top Gear did that :-)
The Davis Dam profile (in USA) is used for GCM certification in oz.
This grade equates to about 2.9 deg for a bit less than 18.3km (11.4miles)
at 100kmph we are looking at something like 11 minutes of this grade
It looks to me like the 3kN drag may have been selected to simulate full GCM on something like the grade required for GCM certification.
What I would have been interested in is, "with a "depleted" battery, what is the starting gradabiity at GCM and what speed would the combination accelerate to up the notional 3%grade"
- this would be a severe test of the electric drive system going from engine to charger to electric motors ( as opposed to running on direct mechanical drive from engine to front axle)
SAE J2807 (Table 3is a good summary,) talks of the performance assessment on the Davis Dam profile grade ( and nicely) gives a profile of the grade and the GCM laden peformance criteria which includes not droping below 40mph on the grade as well as on the flat acceleratoin requirments
good talk, well explained
Had a chuckle re "there is no road in Australia that does that (1000m in 20km)
- on a different note of GCM upgrade certification - we are relegated to using the Tow trailers to simulate Davis Dam hill Profile inthe USA to meet the OZ certification requirments.
But it comes with a towbar as standard. Maybe I am wrong, but if it is already on is it not part of the kerb wait
11:45 slight correction (or I might be misunderstanding what you said), a vehicle at 100kmh doesn't have twice the kenetic energy as a similar vehicle at 50kmh, it is has 4 times (KE = 1/2mv^2). This is why a car can do emergency stops all day at 40kmh, but will cook brakes if done on a race track. The faster the velocity (or greater the mass), the exponentially harder the brakes have to deal with the vehicle.
Energy and power are different. 1G braking at 100 is twice the power of 1G braking at 50.
Good real world analysis. Great background soundtrack! Cicada season!
G’day John excellent video entertaining and extremely informative love your work, keep them coming. Regards LabRat three weeks to go..
Congrats for pronouncing Kosciuszko correctly.
Thank you.
I read this comment at the exact moment he said it.
The road entering Yosemite National Park from the east, is 19 km of 8% grade with just two switchbacks, so each straight stretch is about 6.3 km. Thousands of trailers behind pickup trucks make that up and down every year. In my case, I was going down that as I had climbed in on Priest Grade which is a tow killer. My truck and trailer are 11.4 kiloton. My diesel exhaust brake makes 130 hp of retarding force which allowed me to maintain 50kmh downhill without touching the brakes except two quick stabs to slow down for the switchbacks. Most roads made for heavy hauling traffic are limited to 8%. The speeds in the USA are higher in general up to 136 kmh on some freeways. Of course there are many sections of big hill or mountain roads that are 20% grades. When I was doing electric vehicles I always designed them to be able to do a standing start with GCWR or more usually much more on a 20% grade. That was not a good criteria for underwater electric vehicles, LOL I have been working on electric vehicles of one type or another since 1964. Land, sea and air.
Your 11.4 kiloton truck and trailer weigh more than the naval destroyer I was an engineer on. I think you effed the units 😂
The test is like driving rings around ascending MT Everest at 100km/hr until the Combustion engine could not provide enough energy to the wheels or battery to mantain 100km/hr, the system cant mantain the required power at that constant workload at 100km/hr.
You hit the nail on the head, what hill and what load is THAT demanding in Australia?
With that speed, I doubt anywhere in the world.
Great lesson John
Merry Christmas, John, and all your viewers. Keep up the great work, it's shitloads of fun. Brisbane. ❤
Thank you. All the best to you and yours also.
This was above my head but I enjoyed watching. 😊
Me too.
For me the shark would be perfect. Takes shyte to skips, picks up mor shyte from IKEA, moves house once in a while and when I camp I do wild camping, I don't drag my house behind me, even though I live in a cold climate. The rest of the year I grind to work and back endlessly and some fuel savings work for me.
Thanks for the upload Merry Christmas
Likewise, dude. All the best.
There is no real world road going uphill forever with 100km speed limit. Most countries' highway maximum gradient design limit is 6 degrees. In reality most highway climb are at 2-4.5 degrees. you will rarely encounter a highway climb steeper above 5.
Agreed. Especially sustained driving of that nature.
Come visit Colorado in the USA. You'll find some 'real world' cases that are quite brutal.
@@ComputerGeeks-R-Us do they all have 60miles/hr speed limits? To me the real concern is when you are towing a 5500pound trailer, you wanna drive a tap lower than the speed limit just so it is easier remain in control, it is safer for you and the people in cars around you.
Because when you lose control of that trailer behind you, it is not gonna end well.
So it can tow, and up hills at speeds acceptable enough for the small duration they typically are. Once you get to the top of the hill, it'll regenerate down the other side so not biggie there. My primary concern around this vehicle is it's performance in sandy beaches for 4wding. Typically there are quite high gradient soft sandy 4wd tracks around WA and this car is my prime #1 contender for a replacement to my existing Sorento and we're wanting to add beach and sandy 4wds to our weekend and holiday adventures. Also a future trip to Uluru pulling the camper and my concern here is part availability if something goes wrong on those really vibratey dirt roads. How will it go with those?
So it takes 150KW to do the 3kn tow test, about the max power of a Hilux. When have anyone driven a Hilux with foot to the floor for over 20 mintes at a time? Not sure what the test is trying to show
I had a 110hp Diesel Hilux for a few months and I had that thing floored constantly. If you tow something with such a car, you go full throttle all the time.
It takes about 150kW to punt the BYD against 3kN at 100km/h. The power will vary with the speed, dude. Agreed that nobody rund a Hilux like that, mainly because the roads to enable such driving don't exist.
@@AutoExpertJC according to Paul its 1% of the people that might experience this dingo piss hill scenario.
Europe is mentioned.
The long hill climbs on the Spanish motorway net work will test the cars abilities.
Or the mountainous Balkans, lots of steep hills there.
Both locations give the 38 ton trucks a good workout. Spain is all about engine power to maintain speed and the Balkans is all about gears and power.
The EV Renault truck has no problems in the mountains, but it douse have gears!
The BYD car may have problems with Traction motor overheating and definitely with break temperature!
You have earned respect a world over with this Einstein busting analysis
it is all relative really.
Pretty basic ghetto engineering, you mean. I always just ask myself: What would Newton say about this? (Einstein and Newton agreed on almost everything, except what happens when you go really fast.)
It’d be interesting to know what the electrical generation output of the ice is when it was going up said incline @ below 70 kph fully loaded with a depleted battery and the ice can’t engage to help drive the axle ( and even if it could the gearing would render it pretty well useless )
Love your channel overall. Great educational stuff delivered with quite humorous sarcasm which for the most part is great with the exception of one small part and that is the pretty much regular bashing of the caravan community (btw, I am not one so I am not being precious). It’s comes across to me at least as a bit cruel to a sizeable community of people in this country. Only my opinion but I personally would like to see it dialled back a bit. Otherwise a fantastic channel. Thanks John.😊
I love caravanners...
@@AutoExpertJC Good stuff.
well said John this video goes in-depth and actually without doing the controlled testing yourself you have shown that the shark 6 has ability based on hard statistical numbers and proper research.
While I agree with most of it my issue is real world scenario lets say from Richmond to Lithgow on Bells Line, that is roughly 87km nearly 86% uphill (I don't know the gradient / degrees in certain sections) but I do know what the speed limits are and it would make for a good real world test, anyone game to try? I know with the Everest towing 2.3T (my car carrying trailer + one of my old Falcons) with transmission in manual mode (so I can control the gear ratio), air ccn on, the fuel consumption is apprx 17L. for that section of road.
As for Car Expert, he was no good at giving advice and yes there are still videos on now Drive YT) with you Paul talking about the Ford Territory way back in 2011 ... ah those videos are gold John.
Anyway good work all round.
I don't see how the fuel consumption is that relevant - if you've got $60k for the car and $60k for the effluent box, you can afford any amount of fuel. What metters is overall ability and fit for purpose. Even if the fuel of the Bells Line run is greater, it would be offset by the daily commute savings at other times.
@@AutoExpertJC - relevant for business purposes, not everyone tows a caravan and as such for business purposes logs have to be kept for accountants when sending returns to the ATO otherwise you / business could be audited and no one wants that.
Between your hard numbers theoretical video and Pauls practical (technical lab) testing video all of us interested observers now have a much better understanding of the Shark 6, that is a good thing.
Great analysis that's based on knowledge!
I think car expert needs to replace that dynameter with an actual caravan and realistic ascents to maintain credibility.
The test was awesome - they just missed what it meant, in some respects.
I thought that his ascent was realistically Ozzie😂
John, thoroughly enjoyed your analysis. underestimate "car expert" at your peril.
He engineered a perfect shitstorm. It's clickbait 101 by being both controversial and contrary- it's the stuff that the algorithms get trouser tents over.
@@nicktaylor7680its also stuff that looses long term subscribers.
They did that and it’s was fantastic, so they Jerry rigged a situation to try to make it look bad. Once Toyota start selling their new models with BYD drivetrains they will be fantastic all of a sudden.
Merry Christmas
Not even half way in and you're talking more sense than anyone else I've seen discussing this matter.
Watching the other video, my first thought was "how long a hill is that?" Some rough numbers I did was like 14km long to deplete the battery from full....
Similar calculations have been made in China for the BYD Song Plus FWD version (compact SUV, 81kW engine). The conclusion is that if it is fully loaded to maximum weight, then climbs at 120km/h (the speed limit on Chinese highways) and 3% gradient (the maximum gradient in Chinese highway construction standards), it will deplete its battery in one or two hours. At this rate of ascent, it can reach the summit of Mount Qomolangma (also known as Mount Everest in the West) from sea level in less than 3 hours!
Nothing says merry Christmas, quite like a massive swarm of flesh eating, Australian cicadas making endless noise. Merry Christmas, John.
Have to say i'm not a big believer in dynos results, they can basically be controlled & therefore don't give seat of the pants results, as you say we don't have long straight hills with 100klm speed limits. I would prefer a seat of the pants test, something like Nyora to Big River a 2hr 29min 149klm trip, with last 40 Klm on the Woods Point road being a lot of corners & a reasonable gradient . I would like to know how it goes with the on again off again driving going up this road ?
In the United States, we have something called the Ike Gauntlet. It's a "towing test" and features over 11,000 ft elevation, 8 miles, 7% grade. It's a section of I-70 in the Colorado Rockies. Maybe BYD should send one of their ute's to 'AMERICA and let the TFLT people have a go with it and see what happens. I'd love to see AE/JC and TFLT have a joint video, testing something like this. :D
the issue with TFL is Roman is a douchbag.
As for the tow test they do, cant fault the test, they have the highway to do it from (note: USA State Colorado) Silverthorne (west) to the Eisenhower tunnel (east) at speed limit 98km/h (or for the Americans 60MPH) 7% gradient, they can also go the opposite way and test the brakes/regen/ride, I'm thinking here in Australia we don't have anything thing like that that comes to mind, maybe Kings Highway from Batemans Bay to Braidwood (NSW) but that highway is not 100km/h from memory I think its speed limited to 80km/h and NSW Police maintain a presence there so no speeding etc.
Engineer vs clickbait journo!
Very impressive JC. Spells it out. My thoughts on this BYD is that the batteries will have a short service life due to the design of the entire power train.They appear ot be worked to death. I guess this will be revealed perhaps in the fullness of time.
So you know more about batteries than the guys at BYD, you should ask them for a job.
For me , I think this is John at his best ..
I had put my deposit on this new truck and held off on the first batch.
My concerns about the Shark's inability to take off on Pauls Dirt Hill start test.
....Pauls tow test didnt phase me because it kept towing at 70kph ..
It didnt Fail .
BYD , sort out that Hill start issue( 10-15 deg with max GCM ( My V6 Amarok can do it , though the truck needs to be at max GVM so that it is heavier than the trailer ) and Im back on board ..
Until then , Ill be watching ..
Good on you John. The light has been shone on the BYD shark.
There is one situation, real world, where you could encounter loads similar to or exceeding what the feared dyno-trailer puts out, but you never see them any more.
The old aluminium can recycling trailers...
Behind a van punching a nice big hole in the air, no problem. Behind a smaller car and with a certain % of ally can fill, once you pick up some speed those can get blown to the back of the trailer and act as an airbrake. I learned about that when I was 8 years old when dad had to tow one behind our VH Commodore with 253 V8, and it couldnt' do it very well without overheating, but the early 80's Mitusbishi Express, no problem. Had the mechanics at the local Holden dealer in fits of rage every Monday morning when the Commode rolled in again after a failed weekend towing attempt.
In the dyno-trailer case, I'd wonder if running the ICE as a pure generator, and not hobbling it by locking it to the axle speed, and let the electric motors at it's whole maximum 135kW, would it reach 100km/h under the 3kN load? How much more engine would they need to ace this test as a middle finger salute to journalistic idiocy?
I'd like to know what revs the ICE is doing at 60 or 100kmh while driving the shark. What rpm would a 2.0L Ranger be doing on an equivalent gradient towing 2.5T. If you held the same gear, what rpm would it be doing at 100kmh?
Can you imagine towing a 2.5T van with a Honda Civic? Some of those have a 1.5L Turbo. The Honda actually has less power than the BYD, which is surprising to me considering Honda's technology, they even had F1 cars FFS.
Thank you so much for your true expert analysis a breath of proverbial fresh air compared to watching the Car expert cynical response to comments directed to them.Again your engineering expertise really counts😃💪
Hey Steven, thank you. It's really just a contest of ideas. I thought their experiment was great. However, I felt, at times, their conclusions were a bit shit.
Toowoomba Range is one of the steepest assents in Qld. 700m at a 10-14% climb. Takes 8 minutes at an AVG speed of 75km/hr.
Merry Xmas Bro.
Likewise, bro.
Mr Auto Expert and Ms Car Expert should go on a 6-month touring holiday together in a BYD Ute and towing a caravan. Imagine that. 😂