How To Cross-Coordinate Rolls To Compensate For Camera Uptilt
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
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When you have camera uptilt, your rolls start including more and more yaw. When you are flying normally, you can learn to compensate for this. But when you do snap-rolls, the camera doesn't pivot around the center of the field of view, and this can be undesirable in some circumstances. In this video, I'll show you how to compensate for camera uptilt using a technique I call cross-coordination.
This whole video is done from the perspective of, "your FPV camera has uptilt and you can use cross-coordination to cancel out the uptilt." If your camera doesn't have any uptilt, then you can play with the opposite of this. Instead of doing just rolls, add some yaw in the same direction, to cause your rolls to look as if your camera did have uptilt.
This video predates my entry into the hobby by a year and a half, but since you said something to the effect of "hope it inspires someone"... Every one of your videos surely inspires someone. I don't recall a single video of yours that hasn't inspired me in one way or another. Thank you JB!
Thank you so much for your vids...between you and painless 360...I have gotten prop 90% of my info from you two guys,,,at least the best info:)...Thanks again.
7 years later this is helping me on inverted yaw spins. Thanks my guy!
I'm enjoying these 'things to try' vid bud.
I was playing with this last night, instinctively, in LiftOff. I then tried to explain it to my son, who is also learning to fly. I found myself struggling to describe it. I had a feeling you had already made a video on this issue, so I spent some time searching for it this morning. Took me about 30 minutes and three or four videos to find it. I'm going to link this to him. I'll call these "cross-coordinated rolls" from now on. Thanks!
I was just trying the other day the complete opposite doing 360's using roll and yaw in the same direction. It was a fun one. It's amazing how just changing the yaw from one way to another changes the move from of flat 360 to a level roll. This will be one to practice.
+txfieros Adding more or less yaw adjusts the relative change in pitch during the move. If you have zero uptilt on your camera and the copter is hovering perfectly level, then if you input pure roll, your pitch doesn't change at all. If you input positive yaw (same direction as roll), then at the 180 point, you will be pitched below the horizon. If you input negative yaw (opposite direction as roll), then at the 180 point, you will be pitched above the horizon. At the 360 point, you will always return exactly where you were, as long as your inputs are consistent during the move.
When you add camera uptilt, the copter starts out pitched forwards, so there is some automatic positive yaw built into the roll move. Adding negative yaw (cross-coordinating) can cancel this out.
This is why I think this is really actually a deep topic. Because there is an interplay between yaw, roll, and pitch, that could end with some really awesome acro moves if you took the time to fully understand it.
Sweet tip, makes me want to run out and try it. Since most of my flying experience is with airplanes these coupling issues make total sense to me.
can you roll to right and yaw left?
Yep, definitely.
I don't understand why There isn't an option in the Flightcontroller to input the camera angle. And that the Quad referance axis would be tilted by the flight controller to mathc camera axis. That way you never don't have to bother coordinating roll/yaw ?? (would be simlar to have tilted motors, except done via the flightcontroller software)
This helps hugely! Thank you , the more i watch the more confidence im getting for my first flight
The DJI gimbal is not static during the roll, I must pitch it down as I do the roll.
Sorry about the deleted comments, I should've waited for the video to finish before posting them.
holy shit. it's like I've dropped acid. mind blown
Awesome.
you are the jank!
You (%^#@$%$) nerd, you and your quadcopter , just kidding. I have always rode dirt bikes and had hot rods for my (fix) but recently got into FPV quads and can honestly say its a rush just like a good hillclimb on a dirtbike . All you skeptics and haters , I DARE you to at least try it. No shit, its just as good but a lot safer, and my new friend Josh helped make it better yet. PLEASE SHARE your opinion, I am curious to know others opinions on this. Any Dirtbikers or Quadjunkies tried both?
+Liljohn P mattystuntz rode bikes I think.
Thanks for this tutorial Joshua! Im newbie to FPV flying (2 months), I did lot of rolls and never noticed that my spins are not centered properly LOL. Now I get this and started training it. Today I spent one hour (7 packs) doing only rolls and trying to compensate by yaw. And it works! Now I memorised this maneuver and my spins looks much better. If anyone is interested in my training session and how it goes after few packs, here is it:
1st pack, very bad: ua-cam.com/video/EZU5tAB4Ux8/v-deo.html
7th pack, much better: ua-cam.com/video/MeMYd2h7W2Q/v-deo.html
Nice Tutorial. Think I'm getting the hang of split s now(check my latest vid). Looking to learn the power loop though. I also want to learn how to do flat yaw spins so then I can move on to doing them inverted.
Old video, but still very useful. JB is the best! I'm just starting to really feel in control on the sim ( Liftoff + FPV Air II are my favorites) and with every maneuver I've learned so far, JB has pointed out something that makes learning it a ton easier. Youdaman Joshua!
Hay Joshua, i got my first flight today ☺ very first time flying a quad , got her to hover and go left and right .😆
Congratulations!
I really love your videos especially when you are showing the stick movement on the screen it’s really very easy to understand..... Thanks... :-)
haha !This would equate to a snap roll in 3d airplane flying.
Thanks Joshua, very nice tutorials. I'm learning to do some flow style like Skitzo and your videos helps a lot.
I was looking at this one on coordinating roll and yaw and I guess yaw rate as to be as close as possible the roll rate for this to work? Because the roll and yaw would be kind of desynchronised and the roll would append faster then de yaw?
I ask because I normally fly with very little yaw rate compare to my roll (roll: 70 and yaw: 25) I guess its a matter of experience :-) and I will have to increase my yaw rate and get use to it.
+Amyot Rodrigue they don't have to be the same. Just use your fingers to adjust the horizon.
I could be wrong, but I'm thinking an argument for learning to do it manually is you're not always flying at the exact degrees to level your camera, will the "roll_yaw_cam_mix" setting be compensating for the full X amount of degrees set in that variable at all times? Example, if have your camera tilt is set at 20° and your flying slowly and your camera has a 10° up tilt while flying at that speed, will the mix compensate and only add in enough yaw correction for the given quadcopter angle?
+Perry Wolf You're right. But the difference is, most of the time, pretty subtle.
Very nice! Thanks for share!
When i try this trick my motor make horrible sound, poor motor :(
i can execute this in freerider and lift off but not in real life dam.
oh, so there 'is' a coupling ability for roll and yaw?.. i wonder if anybody we know uses it for races or anything, and does that coupling go both ways? i mean if it can do perfect bank turns using just the yaw input? .. anyway, i'm resigned to just learning how the sticks combine in the real world and getting a feel for it, shaky thumbs and self level habits are making it kinda hard to learn, not to mention only having one quad and being scared stiff of a crash. anybody out there got any tips or tricks for shaky thumbs?... i'm thinking i might loosen the dampers on the yaw to see if that helps..... ok wheres that nose in video... hehehe
I guarantee you top pilots are just coordinating manually.
Brilliant tutorials!!! Thanks very much
I've been using the new ßF option roll_yaw_cam_mix_degrees = 20 (degrees) and it seems to do a nice job of handling this automatically!
+Smitty FPV I have also been playing with this, and have a video on the way. Short version is that I agree this feature is worth exploring.
Gracias buen hombre, ayer estuve practicando en Perú 😀
Just recently discovered this trick while playing around on a sim, awesome to see others have discovered it too :)
Nice video! I found out about this by accident while I was flying one day :D my mind was blown
about time someone did this. u doing good work. im subscribed
Btw: This is something you can also practice on simulators, i tried it on Freerider. I am not advertising here something, I just figured this out. So if you have it installed, give it a try!
+Jan Propellermann I learned it first on a simulator.
I agree with all the positive kudos, BUT, my curiosity pushes me to ask you what river that is in the background?
+Old Deacon Tennessee River
Doing this today, interesting and counter-intuitive trick!
wow this guys good
Small question, what is the minimum degree of camera up tilt that you begin to see these effects take place on roll and pitch?
Thanks
+IzakGt I think it really becomes noticeable above about 20 degrees, but it depends a lot on your camera lens. The point where the axis of the roll is significantly far from the camera's center field of view, or even off the field of view entirely is where it starts to really matter.
One of your most interesting videos to date, Joshua. Love it!
I was wondering, if it is so, why don't we just set the Flight Controller to work around the camera axis instead of the quad axis? So that roll input would be roll around camera axis, and yaw would be yaw around camera axis. I can't think of any downsides to this?
This is what the camera uptilt compensation feature does. ua-cam.com/video/gEcWxHIH378/v-deo.html
The down-side is that the copter doesn't have as much yaw authority as it does pitch and roll authority. So when you start mixing yaw in, your rolls get slower. Also, I found that there was a kind of weird "sliding" effect when I did snap rolls. I'm not sure I could explain it.
+Joshua Bardwell thanks a lot! Seems you have videos on everything haha :)
So I assume moving both stick out worth make it roll to the right.. Ya..? Nice vit btw..👍🏻
+Mohamad Ezwan Jais Jais yes.
which quad are you doing this with?
+dogintwater QAV-R.
Joshua, with BTFL 3.2, I have been inputting the FPV camera angle on the 'configuration' page... does this automatically setup Betaflight to use yaw compensation? I never used any CLI commands. Now I want to try working on my spin moves but I want to do it without Betaflight help... Should I just keep that setting to 0? Or is it off if I never activated it through CLI commands? Thanks!
Yes, the camera angle in the GUI sets up yaw compensation. Personally I tried it and ended up not liking it.
What was it you didn't like? (I'm just learning to fly on sims, where this compensation seems to not be available.) Presumably the compensation can be "undone" by applying opposite yaw to retain the uncompensated "pure roll" feel. So isn't it just a question of how you train your muscle memory?
Also, I'm still figuring out my new Taranis QX7, but I *think* it's capable of mixing channels as well, although obviously it can't figure it out for you based on camera angle. But presumably with a little trial and error, the radio could do the coordination automatically, right?
So from what I understand, the back end of the quad will move in a cone with the cross coordinated roll.
Yes exactly.
I cannot say enough how much I love your vids I learn a lot and grow in confidence every time thank you so much and keep up the good work
+Lokeni Siuta glad to be of service.
Really helps you stay on target line. Great info.
Thanks for this and all other video's. I practiced these rolls yesterday succeeded on my first try !
+Menno Broxterman congratulations!
At the end of the roll I have what I would describe as an "ass slide" that makes it look less "snappy." Is this due to holding the yaw too long?
+Levi Maston I see that you mention this at 7:20. Haha, awesome! Thanks for your videos! If you're ever inclined to head out west we'd love to have you here in Albuquerque!
+Levi Maston Maybe I'll get me some blue meth while I'm out there. We can go throw a pizza on the roof of that house.
Do people from Albuquerque get sick of Breaking Bad references?
+Joshua Bardwell Nah, we're proud (?) of it. The local news did a story on the people that live at the White's house, and they begged the community to stop throwing pizza on the roof! There are tours of all the locations too. The blue meth is great! What do you think we use to keep winning all the races! The Shendrones tweaker comes with blue rock candy, haha.
+Levi Maston Incidentally, do look into using the camera uptilt compensation feature to automatically cross-coordinate. See my video on the topic for more info.
So you've really got me thinking now. For a while now I've seen pro pilots do these amazingly quick yaw spins, but always when I try to do them it feels like I'm half yawing, and half rolling. I now wonder if it only just feels like that because of my camera tilt (see horizon, then suddenly see sky). Is it possible to cross-coordinate a yaw spin, and if so, how would I do it? (yaw and pitch on same direction, or opposite?)
+Patrick Tuxbury I would call that coordination, not cross-coordination. To coordinate a yaw spin, you push the sticks the same direction. Remember that, when you do a yaw move, if you do it 360, the horizon will come back to where it was. So if you don't mind the horizon going all wibbly in the middle, you can snap 360 as fast as your copter can manage without losing orientation.
Practice slow flat turns first and get a feel for how much roll you need to add in to get that to happen.
+Joshua Bardwell Coordinated makes more sense, yes. I think in the past I've tried yaw spins and chickened out halfway through because I see the sky and it feels like I'm going out of control. It sounds like I should just try to finish the maneuver. I'll experiment with it next time I fly. Thanks! I'm really trying to raise my flying to the next level this year. Your videos are definitely helping.
i'm assuming i would need my yaw and roll rates to be similar to pull this off?
+Paul V No. I'm at 0.65 on yaw, and 1.75 on P/R.
I officially pronounce that you have a PhD in fpv race quads.
+Steve Reidling Just call me Doctor.
💖
should your yaw spin at the same speed of your roll?
+Archimedes Tan It depends on the amount of uptilt.
Well, That's a neat trick.....
your a excellent teacher thanks
Thanks Josh! Always nice to learn something new from you.
+Brent Simpson Always nice to share something new.
is this why some "pro" pilots fly with 0 tilt on the HD camera, so that all their recorded material is relevant to the frame axis instead of camera axis?
+GMAC FPV If they really flew with zero uptilt, all you'd see is the ground. But you're on the right track. With a very wide-angle HD cam, you can have somewhat less uptilt on the HD cam than on the FPV cam.
I really don't think any pro pilots fly with zero uptilt at all.
+Joshua Bardwell check out some of their instagram accounts, some use none to very little tilt. Good info Josh! thanks
GMAC FPV Link! I gotta see this.
+Joshua Bardwell check out Skitzo's instagram. Some of his setups seem to have hardly any tilt on the HD camera. I did notice that his rolls seem very axial!
+Joshua Bardwell instagram.com/p/9h6Y8RKK93/
Thanks for pointing this out make a lot of sense being kind of opposite to flat yaw spins.
what made you think of this?
+Oliver Peters Just thinking about what would be required to make the copter's frame move so as to cause the camera to roll about its own axis.
+Oliver Peters I appreciate what your saying, if you yaw towards the opposite side as Josh is suggesting, that will work towards a flat yaw spin :D Yup
Nice one - I figured this out ages ago in the sim, I wondered if you'd mention it :-)