Joseph said Moroni said this continent: “He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang.
While on the “Zion’s Camp March” of 1834 Joseph Smith wrote a letter to his wife Emma revealing geography of the Book of Mormon lands, referring to Ohio, Indiana and Illinois as the “Plains of the Nephites.”
@@redfightbluelike most LDS my age, there was little to no BOM research in the Heartland when I was growing up. Everything was focused on the stately pyramids, gold artifacts and curious inscriptions of the Mayan culture. When I served my mission in southern Mexico it opened my eyes to how little correlation there actually was with the Book of Mormon. Everything seemed to be a stretch, like scholars were trying to force a square peg into a round hole. New researchers and archeologists, beyond the confines of traditional academia, are finally revealing the evidences of the Heartland model that have been obscured for such a long time.
@@shanermcdoogle The primary reasons that mainstream Mormon apologists have pitched Mesoamerica as the BOM locale since the 1840s is because a) that is the only region in the entire western hemisphere which contains large ancient cities such as described in the BOM and b) it is the only area where native Americans had any form of a written language. Therefore, if BOM events happened anywhere, then Mesoamerica is the only region that BOM believers have any hope of placing the story. We can rule out the "Heartland" theory because there is no area which includes any great cities which stretched "from sea to sea," buildings made of cement, constructed highways, or any similar items which are specifically described in the BOM.
On my mission in Canada I was in a lamanite branch in Saskatoon. I was reading a book about Cree legends. There was a legend called the legend of the 12 shields. It said there were 12 tribes through out the world that each had a shield. The American Indians were 2 of those tribes and had 2 of the shields. I found it interesting that the book of Mormon said they were of the tribes of Ephraim and Menasha. I'm a heartland guy myself.
The legends and oral histories of many Native American peoples lend credence to the Heartland Model. I find the history of the Sauk tribe especially interesting. They originated in northern New York state along the St. Lawrence River. They are an Algonquian-speaking people. The Iroquois Confederacy spoke Iroquois and lived mostly in western New York state. Algonquian-speaking tribes surrounded the territory of the Iroquois, rather like the Lamanites surrounded the Nephites on every side. Over time, the Sauk moved to Michigan, and then Wisconsin where Europeans first encountered them. The Huron and others pushed them into the Upper Mississippi River Valley of Illinois. The city of Keokuk, Iowa is named for their great chieftain Keokuk. They eventually moved to Iowa and Kansas. In 1830, early LDS missionaries were sent there on a mission the the Lamanites. The Lord immediately fulfilled his promise that the Lamanites would receive the gospel from the Gentiles once the priesthood was restored, the Book of Mormon was published, and Christ's church was restored. The Lord knew exactly where the ancient Lamanites' descendants would live 1400 years after the destruction of the Nephites. However, I personally think that Lamanite bloodlines spread throughout the Americas. 1400 years allows for 56 generations of 25 years. It's amazing to consider how many people billions of people have lived since 600 CE so we might live today.
Heartland model absolutely makes the most sense to me. The climate was a lot different in North America in the time frame of the Book of Mormon, so it actually matched with present time Meso-American climate really well, which is why snow isn't really a thing... Also the soil in the areas that are described with the great wars in Book of Mormon according to the heartland model is relatively acidic and would decompose bodies entirely within the timeframe between the end of the BoM and the discovery of America by the Europeans. There have been genetic matches between Hopewell tribes and semitic peoples. The writing style of the Hopewell tribes match well with the sample writing from the gold plates displayed in the Anthon letter. There are a lot of matches. I don't understand why you guys rag on the heartland model so much. It seems like you took some quotes from some hyper right winger fox news types and are dismissing it outright when in fact there is a ton of empirical evidence in favor of the heartland model.
I’d love to see the science on North American temperatures during the Book of Mormon era. Everything I’ve seen states that temps may have been slightly warmer, but not like mesoamerica. There would still be snow in North America, whereas mesoamerican people would have no idea what snow is. The span of settlements on the heartland model is simply too expansive to make sense. Joseph Smith stated at different times the Book of Mormon was in a lot of places. North America, South America, all of the American continent, etc. toward the end of his life, the prophet was given a book that that covered the ancients in mesoamerica and The Prophet expressed his believe that the location of the Book of Mormon was where the people in the book was located. In other words, Joseph Smith, at the end of his life, believed the Book of Mormon occurred in mesoamerica.
What evidence would you cite that supports the notion that climate was substantially different in BOM times? I understand why you have to argue that, or else you can't make the heartland model work.
I always used to believe the BoM took place in North and South America. Frankly it doesn't matter to me either way, but the most compelling argument that I've heard for it haven taken place mostly in the U.S. is that when the Lord speaks of it being a "choice land above all others", you really have to wonder how that applies to S. American countries and Central America or Mexico. The choice land that has received all the blessings is the U.S. (and somewhat Canada). Take it for what it's worth, but that's the argument that has really made me rethink N. and S. America in their entireties being the location.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
@@randyjordan5521 by that same logic, the fact that people still don't fully understand the Book of Revelation, much less know where John the beloved is today, tells us that it isn't real right?
@@randyjordan5521 it’s much harder to find evidence for a civilization that died off 1500 years ago. For example the hopewell people innnorth America. Nobody knows anything about them. Same with the druids and many other ancient cultures. But we do have concrete evidence for the Book of Mormon in Nahom whether you like it or not. It is a “bullseye” as one skeptic of the church put it. Truthfully we all know you just hang around these comment sections because you know you might be wrong about the church. No shame in that I would probably do the same if I left the church
@@Beavis1 LOL. The Book of Revelation is an authentic historical document. That means that it was written during the era in which its author lived. It doesn't mean that what's written in it is true. And it does not compare to the issue of the BOM's historicity in the least. There is no evidence that anything written in the BOM occurred before its 19th century author wrote it.
Heartland model is the one I think is most likely for a number of reasons. #1 plates were found in New York. #2 Joseph sent missionaries to "the Lamanites" in the midwest. #3 Florida actually does fit a "narrow neck of land pretty well. There is one point in between the great lakes where you can stand and see the sea on the west and the sea on the east. But if at conference President Nelson were to reveal it happened in Panama my testimony would be 0 effected.
Kinda surprised Kwaku didn't support the hemisphere model, using some conspiracy argument of "We know they were more technologically advanced than us, they had highways, they could have covered those distances, oh and we know they had teleportation tech because Nephi son of Helaman was teleported at one point and..."
I don’t know which model is correct, but I do know that the tribe I met on my mission in the middle of the Amazon had oral stories that were exactly like 3 Nephi 11, they used phrases like “Great Spirit”, and many other cool things. For me personally, it’s hard to believe that South America wasn’t involved somehow.
Jesus told the Nephites he had other places to go. There are people in Russia with a tradition Jesus came to them. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus appeared in North America and in Central/South America.
That’s great. I’m sure Christ visited them too. But that doesn’t negate the evidences of the People of Nephi being in the PRO ISED LAND/NORTH AMERICA. Jesus said He was going to visit other’s besides the Nephites. I absolutely believe He did.
You have to remember that there many different peoples that populated the Americas than just the people mentioned in the BoM, but they definitely had to be a people led by the spirit because the land is a promised land and is required to be given to a choice people starting out.
The Heartland model all the way. When I learned about it, my testimony grew so much as the Book of Mormon made SO much more sense. Follow the covenant lands... overwhelming evidence for Heartland.
There was a Egyptian style temple found and flooded in Tennessee. the the US government damned up some rivers because they could not find out where it came from.
Mesoamerican 100%. No one can have a truly informed opinion on Book of Mormon geography unless they’ve read An Ancient American Setting For the Book of Mormon by John Sorensen. Incredible book
I think one of the reasons that there are so many models is the the natives from all these lands have a story of Christ appearing to their ancestors. I have accounts of Christ in North America, South America, Japan, Russia. He visited all his sheep whatever model you believe in. The Book of Mormon is true.
In this situation your mind had it. I used to be Heartland with heart and mind until studying Gardners and Soreson’s exhaustive work that changed my mind. None of the models work currently but Meso-America. The greatest convergence of evidence falls squarely into the Meso-America theory. However, time might tell.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
I'm curious how the people of Lemhi finding the Jaredite books comes into play. They found the books with lots of dead folks, and they found it while looking for Zarahemla, so there kinda has to be a route from the Land of Nephi to that Jaredite battle location...
In my opinion, the mesoamerican model has a pretty solid answer for this. I haven’t seen the different heartland model responses to this question, so maybe they have something good to add, but for the mesoamerican model, it’s that they either went up the Usimacinta or Grijalva river (whichever one Zarahemla wasn’t on, and their headwaters are close enough it would be reasonable to mistake one river for the other) and then returned the same way, thinking Zarahemla had been destroyed.
The Heartland Model proposes that Zarahemla was across the Mississippi River from modern Nauvoo, IL, and that Lehi-Nephi was in the southern Appalachian Mountains of Kentucky or Tennessee. About 400 miles of straight-line travel separates these locations. The Mississippi, Ohio, and Tennessee Rivers, and their tributaries cover this area and enabled expansive travel by native tribes. This model proposes that the Adena culture of the Early Woodland Period (1000-200 BCE) was the Jaredites, and the Hopewell culture of the Middle Woodland Period (200 BCE-500 CE) was the Nephites. The lands of the Hopewell were eventually more expansive, but covered largely the same territory as the Adena, throughout the Midwestern United States. This means that Limhi's failed expedition to locate Zarahemla returned with the 24 gold plates and other artifacts from the ruins of the Jaredites while traveling through the territory both cultures had spanned at different times. If you have ever done any travel in a wilderness area, you can easily understand how even slightly navigation error can result in arriving at an unintended location. I hope this information is useful to you.
@@JRDATX "The Heartland Model proposes that Zarahemla was across the Mississippi River from modern Nauvoo, IL, and that Lehi-Nephi was in the southern Appalachian Mountains of Kentucky or Tennessee." As the LDS anthropologist Tom Murphy has pointed out, such theories are racist, because they propose a false, unsupported idea about authentic native American origins and culture. There is no cultural or DNA evidence that any native Americans in the areas you name are descended from ancient Hebrews. DNA evidence shows that all native Americans are descended from Asians who crossed into the Americas 20k+ years ago. The Book of Mormon story is an insult to authentic native American history and traditions.
@@randyjordan5521your statement that “all” native Americans descended from Asian ancestors is incorrect. Many, including the Iroquois tribes around the Great Lakes area, carry clear middle eastern DNA markers. Tom Murphy did his research in Central America, but apparently he knew very little about the Cayuga, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Seneca, Ojibwe and Potawatomi living in the Eastern United States. Those are the natives that the book of Mormon refers to, and those are the tribes that carry middle eastern DNA.
@@shanermcdoogle LOL. Tom Murphy's primary interest is in the North American tribes because of his own native ancestry. Tom specifically stated: "Is there evidence for "Jewish" or Middle Eastern DNA in Native American populations? "No, probably not. Proponents of the "Heartland" theory for the Book of Mormon have argued that Haplogroup X (which is present in North American native populations[29]) is evidence for the Book of Mormon,[30] but their arguments have neither been accepted by mainstream non-Latter-day Saint scientists nor by Latter-day Saint geneticists who accept Book of Mormon historicity." Five months ago, LDS geneticist Ugo Perego appeared on the "Mormonism With The Murph" UA-cam channel. He debunked the decades-long argument of Mormon apologists' re: "Haplogroup X" by stating: "Haplogroup X is not evidence for the Book of Mormon to be true....the one found in America is not a descendant of the one found in the Middle East. It is a sister group. It is not an ancestral or a descendant group." According to LDS doctrine, every human on earth died in the global flood circa 4500 years ago, except for the eight people aboard Noah's ark. The ark landed in the Middle East, and the human race began repopulating from there. Joseph Smith stated that the "Jaredites" were the first humans to occupy the Americas after the flood. That means that ALL native Americans' DNA should be closely related to that of their Semitic/Hebrew cousins who still live in the Middle East. DNA testing should also show that those two groups became separated from each other around 4500 years ago. Because Ugo Perego concedes that prehistoric Asians entered the Americas during the last Ice Age, and that they began living there many centuries before "Book of Mormon times," Perego is telling us that he does not believe in LDS doctrine, and that Joseph Smith cannot be relied upon for accurate information re: the ancient inhabitants of the Americas.
We should keep in mind that when Jesus appeared to the Nephites, the geographic face of the land literally changed. Earthquakes destroyed cities and landforms, other cities were flooded and the surrounding areas covered with water. I love this topic and it's so fascinating, but can we really know? I have always pictured it as the Mexican Highland model you showed. (Sorry to the Prime Minister of Malaysia) Also, didn't the Brother of Jared speak the Adamic language? There was only one language until they were confounded?
Not true at all. Sorenson demonstrates i. Hos study that the overall change was minor. Mostly surface of the earth had been broken and changed in the destruction, but the fundamental geographical areas were still the same. Some hills had vanished and some valleys covered and some cities sunk, but this doesn't change the map overall that much.
LOL. There is no evidence of any major changes in topography in the western hemisphere circa 33 AD. Mayan cites and culture were not affected by any such alleged land upheaval.
@@randyjordan5521 Jerry Grover's _Geology of the Book of Mormon_ undermines your "no evidence" claim. It may not be proof but it's certainly evidence that supports at least one Book of Mormon geography model.
New York, Niagara escarpment = narrow neck in the natives language. Climate does change over time, there are many scientists claiming that Iceland wasn’t always temperate, climate is the one reasons they give but it falls on its face.
I'm a "heart-lander" that is waiting for the record of Christ's dealings with the people of Meso-America to be found and translated...I think that we can't appreciate the way the land changed at the time of Christ's visit to the people and how so much is different than it was. I really think that we're not going to know until it is revealed because we need to exercise faith. first. This was a fun episode!
Yep, you just need to exercise faith. Just like the members of the Heaven's Gate cult exercised their faith that a UFO was hiding behind the Hale-Bopp comet and it was going to take them aboard after they took poison and killed themselves. Just have faith.
You are employing circular reasoning, meaning that you are using what is written in the BOM to try to support the authenticity of the BOM. In order to legitimately argue for its authenticity, you have to set aside what the book says and consider what actual scientific research says---and the science says that there is no evidence of any upheaval of American land masses circa the 1st century AD.
Don’t forget Moroni was alone for like 30+ years or something like that, and he was avoiding Lamanites and other groups of people the whole time. No matter where the majority of the BoM took place, he could have ended up in New York with all that time to travel.
@@vendingdudes He has a lot of anecdotes that are very convincing. His "hard" evidence is tainted by a poor history and a lot of forgeries. I think he makes some convincing cases for the layout of the land geologically, and handles some of the major complaints on that subject pretty well, but as for artefacts and other sundries, it doesn't pass muster.
Why? His opinion on BOM geography evolved over his life due to lack of evidence in upstate New York and emerging evidence in Guatemala. Clearly nothing he said settled the debate in any way.
It absolutely did, otherwise all active LDS would be in agreement and you wouldn't have the complete mess you have now. You do realize active LDS are literally fighting over this? Why? It's because Joseph Smith was vague and non-committal. He clearly jumped on the Guatemala band wagon as quickly as he could. Jonathan Neville has said nothing to convince anyone that Jews lived in the Heartland. This is bonkers and not believed. It's just a total bunch of nonsense. There's no evidence whatsoever. Sorry about that. @@Greg-McIver
Heartlanders do have one support to their argument that wasn't mentioned - although I know that this might be seen as tenuous anyways, given the expanse in time - but DNA research into the Hopewell does better connect them with Israeli region peoples than other groups in the Americas.
The reason DNA doesn't support the Heartland model is because DNA changes are based on Darwinian evolution instead of on actual changes in DNA over known generations.
@@VickiRasmussen My point is more that the X marker which demonstrates people from a place other than Asia, not saying that its direct proof of Nephites.
@@deseretrebel4590 " My point is more that the X marker which demonstrates people from a place other than Asia, not saying that its direct proof of Nephites." The "haplogroup X" DNA admixture which Bok of Mormon defenders have been pushing for the last 30 years or so occurred in the Old World, thousands of years before "Book of Mormon times." Therefore, it has no relevance to the BOM story at all. "Haplogroup X is not evidence for the Book of Mormon to be true....the one found in America is not a descendant of the one found in the Middle East. It is a sister group. It is not an ancestral or a descendant group."---Ugo Perego There is NO evidence of any Hebrew-Semitic DNA admixture into the western hemisphere circa 2500 or 600 BC as the BOM claims. In fact, Joseph Smith stated that the first humans to occupy the Americas after the great flood were the "Jaredites." That means that if the BOM story is authentic, ALL humans who lived in the Americas before Columbus would have had to be descended from the "BOM people." And since the BOM claims that those people were Semites/Hebrews from the Middle East, then if the BOM is true, ALL full-blooded native Americans should be virtually cousins in their DNA makeup to Semites living in the Middle East today.
I think Heartland models seem to be the most accurate in line with the totality of the information we have and research done. I’m not entirely closed off to meso America as a plausible alternative. I’m surprised no one mentioned the Delaware model, although I guess that could be lumped in with heartland technically.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
@@lemjwp1756 Joseph Smith made clear statements about Book of Mormon events, locations, and people, including this: "In this important and interesting book, the history of America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnent are the Indians that now inhabit this country." (Joseph Smith Jr., published in Times and Seasons March 1, 1842 and in History of the Church, Vol 4). So according to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon people were the first humans to inhabit the Americas after the Noachic flood. That means that ALL Pre-Columbian native Americans had to descend from the Book of Mormon people. Therefore, artifacts of their presence should be scattered all over the Americas. In that light, the Book of Mormon is indeed a "geographic text." If all native Americans are not descended from the Book of Mormon people as Joseph Smith said they were, then neither he or the book have any credibility.
Nobody really knows for certain the burial tomb location of Jesus Christ, which is probably one of the most significant geographical locations in all Christendom. Natural disasters, wars, migration, genocide, and human destruction of native history and language during colonization of the Americas plays a huge part in not knowing for certain where Book of Mormon geography took place; but there are volumes of historical evidence of ancient civilizations in the area, and the Algonquin language similarities with Hebrew is no coincidence.
Enjoyed this episode.. very entertaining and informative as well.. you guys are overlapping the Stick of Joseph guys with this topic :) For a good Sorenson Mesoamerican model spokeperson, Brant Gardner is excellent, but if you want a younger guy you can try Stephen Smoot, or possibly Neal Rappleye. Also Jerry Grover has written extensively on the geography of that model and how it fits very well with the destruction described in 3 Nephi preceding the coming of Christ. I've been partial to Sorenson's model for about 30 years, after first reading his earlier work "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon". He published an updated version of that model in his "Mormon's Codex" book which his last published work on that subject. I have read both books and they are very detailed and well written. To me, that model is the most scientific and 'scholarly' of all the models I've seen and requires a lot of reading and study to fully appreciate it. IMHO, It is not as well marketed as the Heartland model as you don't have charismatic guys like Wayne May and Rod Meldrum to promote it - just normal BYU professors :) The other models just don't cut it for me - I'm a science nerd so am a big fan of models that are the most scientific in nature :)
@@GadiantonsRobber - Thanks, I'll check it out. It piqued my interest, though I'm kind of skeptical since it had the land of Zarahemla too far north of the land of Nephi, but I'm open to new theories and/or modifications of existing good ones.
Brad widbeck...I am a full blooded Lakota Sioux native...in my patriarchal blessing I am called a lamenite. I holy agree with the heartland model and to mabe give proof of people backgrounds what tribe are they from? I am from manassah and usually see gentiles from Ephraim so Brad ask those people what tribe are they from?
If you've been to Baja, you know it's not there. It's all hot, super windy desert. Very desolate with limited ground water and long dry spells, no timber and damned inhospitable. Plus the fact that there is very little archeological discoveries there which are limited to very small nomadic type tribes of natives.
I've been there, and driven it twice, if you like Driscoll bearies they all come from Baja! It's a bread basket! For produce! Just have to plant those seeds from Jerusalem and make some canals for water and you have best fruit 🍓🍑 on earth.😮
Guys, I really Enjoy your show. Please get Get Wayne May, Rod Meldrum or Jonathan Neville on your show. Really though Joseph said the Nephites were in this land, he pointed out were the city Zarahemla and Manti were, that is all we should really need. However many of the heartland tribes have so many connections to the BOM and ancient covenant Israel. Many tribes wore ceremonial woven robes with tassels and loin clothes made of linen ,not hides, they wore braids on the sides of their heads like the Jewish side locks, they made altars of stone for prayer and covenants, most wrote in a Hebrew or Egyptian language, raised and spun linen, were smelters, used cement, have knowledge of their for fathers who came across the great sea and have the 10 commandments. I saw a video were a man was interviewing a tribal leader or Elder (from the heartland area) on their history and the Elder got out his written book of records(since they learned English) of their Chiefs and what years they served. It was then that the interviewer saw that all the Names were the same, the Elder explained that the Chief or Head Elder would go by the name "Nephi" as that was the name of one of their ancestor and leader, he pronounced the name as "Knee-fee" but it was spelled the same as it is in the BOM. Thousands of artifacts are being held and are not being allowed into the museums or into the history of these people. I have a family member who was a man of science not a man of Faith or an Lds, he was high up in the Archeology world, he saw evidence for the BOM all over but I'm guessing it would not fit into the historical or educational narrative. If you want to see hundreds of correlations between some of these heartland tribes and the BOM and ancient Israel I recommend The Annotated Edition , The Book Of Mormon translated by Joseph Smith Jr. Compiled and edited by: David R. Hocking and Rod L. Meldrum
At no point did Joseph Smith or anyone else ever point out where Zarahemla or Manti was. Every reference you are going to pull out to try and support your false assertion is either Joseph Smith or someone else saying they will build a city and name it Zarahemla or Manti. There is also a Manti in Utah. Helamen 3:3 says they went northward, Helaman 3:6-7 and Helamen 3:10 says that there was no timber so they built houses using cement. The only place in North America that has that kind of geography and evidence of cement housing being used anciently is Arizona and Texas, mind you the Book of Mormon says all this is going on North of the main body of Nephites or where the story has been taking place. There are multiple other places that say they spread across the land, which is why you see evidence of some Nephite culture so far north.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
@@nathantibbitts6415 Hey, thanks for chiming in! You got any thoughts on where those hundreds of thousands of Hebrew-descended, Law of Moses- keeping, horse and chariot-riding, forged steel and weaponry-making, large cities from sea to sea-building Nephites and Lamanites lived? Because it's been 194 years since the Book of Mormon was published, and not a single Mormon leader, scholar, or apologist has been able to pinpoint where that thousand-year existence and culture even took place. In fact, church leaders have repeatedly advised members not to speculate on possible locations---and yet, this UA-cam program is doing exactly that. A thousand years ago, ancient Norse sagas told of Viking voyagers sailing west and discovering a new land. For many years, scholars speculated that it referred to the Americas. And then in the 1960s, an actual Viking settlement was discovered in Newfoundland. Artifacts unearthed at the site matched known Viking materials from the same era, and that confirmed the ancient sagas. We don't know whether those explorers came on just one ship, or a hanfdul of ships, or how many people were in the party, or how long they stayed. They might have only been there a year or two, then they might have starved, been killed by natives, or returned to Europe. But the fact is, that small, short-lived party of Europeans left artifacts of their existence in the New World. So if the Book of Mormon story is authentic, there should be A MILLION TIMES MORE EVIDENCE to support it than there is for that small Viking settlement. So I repeat: the fact that Book of Mormon hobbyists are still clueless as to where its events even took place, 194 years after its publication, SCREAM that it didn't happen ANYWHERE. These people like Wayne May and Rodney Meldrum are giving people like you false hope.
1Nephi 13 also mentions they came out of captivity to the promised land and Britain sent over tens of thousands of political prisoners and many who were in debtors prison.
Okay. Okay. You finally hooked me. After watching well over a dozen episodes (that I "liked") and not really being sure about you guys, you won me over with this one for a subscribe. Fascinating stuff. I'm also really curious about who "Ting" is...
The California-Jardite model actually makes sense to me, because of how fertile a land it is and that it doesn’t have snow, (from what I understand, I don’t live there) and if it does, it’s not often. It’s a good place for year round crops, so it makes sense God would lead a people there.
The Book of Ether was written by Ethiopians. It is their retelling of how Israel was settled, by Ethiopians. The journey North was down the Nile to Egypt, then they sailed to Israel. They believe Genesis 2:13. This means the Garden of Eden is in Ethiopia. They believe the "milk and honey" was brought from Ethiopia to Israel. When Nephi said "prophets of old" in 1 Nephi 1:20, he was talking about Omer from the book of Ether. Moroni makes this clear in Ether 8:25 right before he describes how Omer was forced out of Israel and into Africa, just like Lehi was. Both men were forced into Ethiopia. That's where the Book of Mormon takes place. Lehi was specifically commanded to journey to the Garden of Eden in 1 Nephi 8. Lehi could not stay in Egypt or he would be destroyed Jeremiah 44.
Remember that they were still commanded to follow the Law of Moses. Meso people admit there would have to be substitutions. Does the Lord accept substitutions?
The New Jerusalem will be in Jackson Co., the church was organized in America, we never been under bondage since the revolution, the hill cumorah is in NY, sacred grove in NY, etc. just invite Rod Meldrum on the show and focus on what's in the revealed word. American Continent=Canada, Northern Mexico and USA. Bruce Porter is a heartlander as well
hartland weakness missisipi river does not flow northward as the text says implyes also markers from mittle east ( arabs) are also found in central america talk to Brain Stubs .
I think one of the major influences that led to the Malaysia model was the story of the "Golden Bible" shared by people of the Karen tribe there. IIRC, the Karen had a story of a golden book about their true God that was taken from them to another place, and that in time would be returned to them. A whole host of Karen people also got baptized into (I think) the Catholic Church when they started proselytizing there because Christianity was very similar to the tribal religion they were already practicing. I also heard that one Karen person pointed out that the "Caracters" document had writing that he recognized as a sort of tribal "chicken scratch" or code language that the Karen people learn in their schools. I don't think it is correct, but the anecdotes are pretty fun.
When the Mexico City temple was dedicated, President Hinckley said that Father Lehi was there. I haven't heard of him being present for any temples north of there.
The Montauk native americans on Long Island, NY actually had chiefs with the name of Pharoah. There used to be mounds (some may still exist), too. Could you check into that scenario?
I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith and the scholars like Sorenson who supported the Mesoamerican model. The spatial and directional relationships are more consistent with actual geography. And you don't have to reverse the direction of the Mississippi or turn Buffalo, New York into a tropical paradise so the Lamanites don't get frostbite.....lol😂😅😂 Mark Wright is also right! Helaman 3:1-16. The people who traveled "an exceedingly great distance northward" are the only people who mention a north sea and a south sea. The rest of the BoM only mentions east and west seas.
My mistake , but I would add that Several of the prophets have told the saints that the book of Mormon took place here in North America so why are members still claiming it happened in Central America?
Quoth the Brethren, "Speculation on the geography of the Book of Mormon may mislead instead of enlighten; such a study can be a distraction from its divine purpose. ... the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles URGE leaders and members not to advocate those personal theories in any setting or manner that would imply either prophetic or Church support for those theories. All parties should strive to AVOID CONTENTION on these matters." IMHO, any group that advocates, including criticizing (ahemMartlanders, cough cough) Church leaders for not agreeing, profiting from , leading others towards their so-called correct theories, or holding for-profit conferences around their evidence, are leading themselves into priestcrafts. WARD Radio guys did a great job of not falling into any of those traps and delivered a great, even-handed, and entertaining show.
Indeed, but to give him the benefit of the doubt, he did say Florida panhandle, and a portion of Louisiana was once part of the Florida panhandle. I grew up in one of the Florida parishes in Louisiana.
There's zero evidence. Nothing makes sense. Nobody believes Jews lived in America. Nobody. There's no archeological evidence, There's absolutely no linguistic evidence. The geography is a complete disaster. It's pure fantasy invented in frontier America to explain the Native America Indian.
Heartland all the way. Lehi parks in the gulf and they migrate northward on the Mississippi. Michigan, Ohio…We end in NY with Moroni praying in the snow. Christ appeared in MesoAmerica (and many other places) but that isn’t where the Book of Mormon takes place. 🎉🥳
It also needs to be considred that halfway through the BoM there was such changes to the land that mountains were made low and whree there were no mountains, mountains shot up. Cities were thrown into the sea, etc. etc.
Eh, it makes a lot of sense to me that it would be a volcano, but I could see it being something else too. Do you have an alternate theory on it you'd like to share?
@@bradwitbeck sure it makes sense as a theory (and could even be the case), but it’s good to be clear that they are not specifically mentioned. The prevalence on the meso theory can easily lead to assumptions becoming fact and this may mean we end up missing the mark.
New York area was not cold during Him times, it was actually quite warm. Way different place now than it was back then. Also water level was much higher.
BOM geography is so much fun. I'm not sure if I missed a part but Joseph Smith mentioned mounds in various states? Am I getting that wrong? It's been a while but I watched a video here on UA-cam few years ago about the BOM geology and mentions Joseph Smith passing by mounds where bodies were covered after great battles. You might have mentioned that already. I can look it up if you'd like. Thanks for the time you put into these episodes👌😊. I'm a smart mouth at times but I appreciate what you do. In real life I'm the most clownish person in this planet🤣🤣🤣.
During my mission, I saw ruins in Belize that had been fortified exactly like the BoM describes Captain Moroni had the cities fortified. We pointed to the top of the huge earthen promontory surrounding the city center, and asked the archeologist working the site if there used to be a wooden parapet on top. He was very surprised and told us that they did find residues there that they thought were from a long-gone wooden parapet. He asked us how we knew about that and we discussed the book of Mormon. I don't remember if we shared a copy with him, because we were there on our preparation day but maybe my companion had a copy in his bag. Sadly, I wasn't diligent in keeping a journal and have lost many wonderful memories because of that.
If that is the area where the BOM events occurred, then there should be 1000 more physical artifacts in the same area to prove that. There should be artifacts of Hebrew writing, Judeo-Christian worship and iconography, domesticated horse usage, widespread use of forged iron tools and weaponry, buildings made of cement which stretched "from sea to sea," etc. The fact that a single architectural feature resembles something written in the BOM is merely coincidental, not actual evidence.
I find the models that embrace larger regions (like the last one, the Weaver model) more convincing, not because the narrative covers larger areas but because larger models echo known eastern cultural distributions/migrations better.
My question is how does the geographical location of the land of bountiful correlates with where Lehi and his family left? What might all connect better?
I'm in favor of the Heartland model. We know ware the Hill Camora is and Zarahemla. We have what Joseph Smith said about the heartland area. So for me I will take what a Prophet has taught vs a scholar.
The Hill Cumorah in New York is not the Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon and was not called the Hill Cumorah until the mid-1830s, long after Joseph had retrieved the plates from the hill. There’s no evidence from the 1820s and 30s that Joseph Smith ever called this the Hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery was the one who started calling it “Hill Cumorah” and it caught on and became the name the Saints culturally assigned to the hill. The first time Joseph Smith calls it Cumorah, which is recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 128, is after the membership had already started calling it by that name, and Latter-day Saints have been calling it Cumorah ever since. This idea came from Mormon 6:6 which says “…I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord…” If you stop reading there, then you could say Joseph found the plates in this hill because Mormon said he buried them in the Hill Cumorah. However if you read the rest of the verse it says “…I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, *save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.”* In other words, Mormon buried all of the records he had in the hill Cumorah *except* the Book of Mormon record, which was later buried by Moroni. So the hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon is literally the place where Mormon or Moroni says the golden plates *are not* buried. Joseph Smith never says where Zarahemla is. All that is said is to build a city and call it Zarahemla. That doesn't mean that was where Zarahemla was.
I am a little torn between Heartland and Baja. Heartland has some great links to the catastrophes in 3rd Nephi, but Lynn Rosenvall performed my sealing and his wife used to babysit me. He is an incredibly smart man and my Dad (also very smart) went on the Baja tour and said it was very well done. As such, I like the idea that post Alma 63 they went North. Best of both worlds.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
The geographic models compete with each other. The Maxwell Institute scholars believe in a Meso-American model where the GAs have always said upstate New York state was the location. I have also heard of mid-west American, Great Lakes (which includes Canada), and South American. All of them have their faults as a location for the Book of Mormon.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
I’m heartland all the way. The thing you have to remember is that the weather was not the same 2000 years ago in the northeast or mid sections of the USA or North America as they are now. Watch more Wayne May videos
Joseph Smith stated that the work of Stephens and Catherwood in their published book was where the lands of the Book of Mormon would be found. That is in Mezoamerica. He also told two men, separately, that Moroni traveled from central America up through the rocky mountains and the east. Both men later drew maps that were almost identical showing the route he told them about. I have seen these maps and they are very similar. The Heartland theory doesn't hold water. The Mezoamerican theory is, by far, the most plausible.
I personally prefer the Heartland Model. I did get curious when Cardon stated that there wouldn't be much of a snake problem up by the frostline environments if New York; it turns out that there are three types of rattlesnake indigenous to NY: the timber rattlesnake, the massasauga rattlesnake, and the copperhead.
The good thing about ward radio is how they have fun with these sometimes serious subjects. Book of Mormon geography shouldn't be the hill to die on. The church seems to focus on finding the remnant of Lehi rather than the cities of the Book of Mormon. That remnant is spread all over the Americas and to the Isles of the sea. The more I research pre-Columbian people, the more evidence I discover that aligns with the prophets that the Lehites have been spread all over. The remnant of Lehi is spread amongst the Asian and other remnants. Those that Migratated from Siberia into North America. the people that helped fight against the moundbuilders near the Great Lakes with some of the most epic battles in the Americas. The oral traditions of the Navajo migration from Eastern US into the Southwest. North America migration of the Aztecs into Mesoamerica then Mesoamerican migrations into Midwest and Southern US. Then you have the vikin, Irish, and Welsh settlements in the Eastern US. All these migrations obscures the DNA and culture of the American Semitic Lehites.
Me, someone from eastern Ontario:
"Oh sweet! Let's take a look at the heartland map, I wonder where I am"
Land of desolation. lol
😐
Joseph said Moroni said this continent:
“He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang.
While on the “Zion’s Camp March” of 1834 Joseph Smith wrote a letter to his wife Emma revealing geography of the Book of Mormon lands, referring to Ohio, Indiana and Illinois as the “Plains of the Nephites.”
Nephite colonies controlled the land northward. Doesn’t mean zarahemla or bountiful were there.
@@ThoseOneGuysInc Cool. Now all you need to do is show us some evidence that any "Nephites" existed in present-day USA regions.
Why do you think so few people believe this? The Meso-America model has been dominate. Lack of evidence?
@@redfightbluelike most LDS my age, there was little to no BOM research in the Heartland when I was growing up. Everything was focused on the stately pyramids, gold artifacts and curious inscriptions of the Mayan culture. When I served my mission in southern Mexico it opened my eyes to how little correlation there actually was with the Book of Mormon. Everything seemed to be a stretch, like scholars were trying to force a square peg into a round hole. New researchers and archeologists, beyond the confines of traditional academia, are finally revealing the evidences of the Heartland model that have been obscured for such a long time.
@@shanermcdoogle The primary reasons that mainstream Mormon apologists have pitched Mesoamerica as the BOM locale since the 1840s is because a) that is the only region in the entire western hemisphere which contains large ancient cities such as described in the BOM and b) it is the only area where native Americans had any form of a written language. Therefore, if BOM events happened anywhere, then Mesoamerica is the only region that BOM believers have any hope of placing the story.
We can rule out the "Heartland" theory because there is no area which includes any great cities which stretched "from sea to sea," buildings made of cement, constructed highways, or any similar items which are specifically described in the BOM.
Where was the church reestablished?
No contest. North America
The latitude of Florida matches the latitude of Israel. This is why the seeds grew when they landed in Florida.
On my mission in Canada I was in a lamanite branch in Saskatoon. I was reading a book about Cree legends. There was a legend called the legend of the 12 shields. It said there were 12 tribes through out the world that each had a shield. The American Indians were 2 of those tribes and had 2 of the shields. I found it interesting that the book of Mormon said they were of the tribes of Ephraim and Menasha. I'm a heartland guy myself.
The legends and oral histories of many Native American peoples lend credence to the Heartland Model. I find the history of the Sauk tribe especially interesting. They originated in northern New York state along the St. Lawrence River. They are an Algonquian-speaking people. The Iroquois Confederacy spoke Iroquois and lived mostly in western New York state. Algonquian-speaking tribes surrounded the territory of the Iroquois, rather like the Lamanites surrounded the Nephites on every side. Over time, the Sauk moved to Michigan, and then Wisconsin where Europeans first encountered them. The Huron and others pushed them into the Upper Mississippi River Valley of Illinois. The city of Keokuk, Iowa is named for their great chieftain Keokuk. They eventually moved to Iowa and Kansas. In 1830, early LDS missionaries were sent there on a mission the the Lamanites. The Lord immediately fulfilled his promise that the Lamanites would receive the gospel from the Gentiles once the priesthood was restored, the Book of Mormon was published, and Christ's church was restored. The Lord knew exactly where the ancient Lamanites' descendants would live 1400 years after the destruction of the Nephites. However, I personally think that Lamanite bloodlines spread throughout the Americas. 1400 years allows for 56 generations of 25 years. It's amazing to consider how many people billions of people have lived since 600 CE so we might live today.
@@JRDATX Thanks for sharing
Heartland model absolutely makes the most sense to me. The climate was a lot different in North America in the time frame of the Book of Mormon, so it actually matched with present time Meso-American climate really well, which is why snow isn't really a thing... Also the soil in the areas that are described with the great wars in Book of Mormon according to the heartland model is relatively acidic and would decompose bodies entirely within the timeframe between the end of the BoM and the discovery of America by the Europeans. There have been genetic matches between Hopewell tribes and semitic peoples. The writing style of the Hopewell tribes match well with the sample writing from the gold plates displayed in the Anthon letter. There are a lot of matches. I don't understand why you guys rag on the heartland model so much. It seems like you took some quotes from some hyper right winger fox news types and are dismissing it outright when in fact there is a ton of empirical evidence in favor of the heartland model.
Yeah why would Cardon even say "I'm too Libertarian for those guys.'" Such a weird way to wiggle out.
I’m a heartlander too for all the reasons you stated but mostly because Joseph Smith said so.
I’d love to see the science on North American temperatures during the Book of Mormon era. Everything I’ve seen states that temps may have been slightly warmer, but not like mesoamerica. There would still be snow in North America, whereas mesoamerican people would have no idea what snow is. The span of settlements on the heartland model is simply too expansive to make sense.
Joseph Smith stated at different times the Book of Mormon was in a lot of places. North America, South America, all of the American continent, etc. toward the end of his life, the prophet was given a book that that covered the ancients in mesoamerica and The Prophet expressed his believe that the location of the Book of Mormon was where the people in the book was located. In other words, Joseph Smith, at the end of his life, believed the Book of Mormon occurred in mesoamerica.
What evidence would you cite that supports the notion that climate was substantially different in BOM times? I understand why you have to argue that, or else you can't make the heartland model work.
There have been no writings discovered in hopewell excavation sights. Period. The bat creek stone is the only known example, and it’s a known forgery
I always used to believe the BoM took place in North and South America. Frankly it doesn't matter to me either way, but the most compelling argument that I've heard for it haven taken place mostly in the U.S. is that when the Lord speaks of it being a "choice land above all others", you really have to wonder how that applies to S. American countries and Central America or Mexico. The choice land that has received all the blessings is the U.S. (and somewhat Canada). Take it for what it's worth, but that's the argument that has really made me rethink N. and S. America in their entireties being the location.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
@@randyjordan5521 by that same logic, the fact that people still don't fully understand the Book of Revelation, much less know where John the beloved is today, tells us that it isn't real right?
@@randyjordan5521 it’s much harder to find evidence for a civilization that died off 1500 years ago. For example the hopewell people innnorth America. Nobody knows anything about them. Same with the druids and many other ancient cultures. But we do have concrete evidence for the Book of Mormon in Nahom whether you like it or not. It is a “bullseye” as one skeptic of the church put it. Truthfully we all know you just hang around these comment sections because you know you might be wrong about the church. No shame in that I would probably do the same if I left the church
@@Beavis1 LOL. The Book of Revelation is an authentic historical document. That means that it was written during the era in which its author lived. It doesn't mean that what's written in it is true. And it does not compare to the issue of the BOM's historicity in the least. There is no evidence that anything written in the BOM occurred before its 19th century author wrote it.
Book of Mormon happened in joe's large intestine --- he pulled it out of his ass.
The only reason we don't know this with precision is due to the English-american way of despising the natives.
As a (former) Spanish Fork guy. Utah is quite expansive…
Yeehaw! I was just thinking that I needed a good ward radio episode to watch.
Definitely very needed for us, too. With the world cra-cra, this gets me in a better mindset.
Heartland model is the one I think is most likely for a number of reasons. #1 plates were found in New York. #2 Joseph sent missionaries to "the Lamanites" in the midwest. #3 Florida actually does fit a "narrow neck of land pretty well. There is one point in between the great lakes where you can stand and see the sea on the west and the sea on the east. But if at conference President Nelson were to reveal it happened in Panama my testimony would be 0 effected.
Heartland model and New York/Niagara model. So, what happened that made Cardon upset at Stick of Joseph group?
I wanna know two. That last couple minutes here got wild
Kinda surprised Kwaku didn't support the hemisphere model, using some conspiracy argument of "We know they were more technologically advanced than us, they had highways, they could have covered those distances, oh and we know they had teleportation tech because Nephi son of Helaman was teleported at one point and..."
😂😂🤣🤣🤣
I don’t know which model is correct, but I do know that the tribe I met on my mission in the middle of the Amazon had oral stories that were exactly like 3 Nephi 11, they used phrases like “Great Spirit”, and many other cool things. For me personally, it’s hard to believe that South America wasn’t involved somehow.
Jesus told the Nephites he had other places to go. There are people in Russia with a tradition Jesus came to them. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus appeared in North America and in Central/South America.
That’s great. I’m sure Christ visited them too. But that doesn’t negate the evidences of the People of Nephi being in the PRO
ISED LAND/NORTH AMERICA. Jesus said He was going to visit other’s besides the Nephites. I absolutely believe He did.
Christ went on tour. In a righteous way.
I can 100% get behind the idea of the Savior having visited many different places. Fascinating stuff!
You have to remember that there many different peoples that populated the Americas than just the people mentioned in the BoM, but they definitely had to be a people led by the spirit because the land is a promised land and is required to be given to a choice people starting out.
The Heartland model all the way. When I learned about it, my testimony grew so much as the Book of Mormon made SO much more sense. Follow the covenant lands... overwhelming evidence for Heartland.
I feel the same way. It brought my reading and studying alive.
Super important clue: Where is the land with the covenant?
When? The Nephites were destroyed.
And Helaman 3 accounts for our boy Zelph who's grampa was from Tabasco and brought a parrot with him...😂
There was a Egyptian style temple found and flooded in Tennessee. the the US government damned up some rivers because they could not find out where it came from.
Cool. Where do you stand on Bigfoot and UFOs?
@@randyjordan5521That seems like a bit of a faux pas.
Mesoamerican 100%. No one can have a truly informed opinion on Book of Mormon geography unless they’ve read An Ancient American Setting For the Book of Mormon by John Sorensen. Incredible book
I think one of the reasons that there are so many models is the the natives from all these lands have a story of Christ appearing to their ancestors. I have accounts of Christ in North America, South America, Japan, Russia. He visited all his sheep whatever model you believe in. The Book of Mormon is true.
The reason there are so many possible models of BOM locations is because there is zero evidence to place them in any one area.
I prefer the Heartland model but it has one big failing - it covers too much geographical area for BofM events.
My Brain says meso, my heart says heartland.
Right there with you! Well said
In this situation your mind had it. I used to be Heartland with heart and mind until studying Gardners and Soreson’s exhaustive work that changed my mind. None of the models work currently but Meso-America. The greatest convergence of evidence falls squarely into the Meso-America theory. However, time might tell.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
are u auto responding now? sad
wish i had your optimism and cheerful outlook on the unexplained things of life :] @@randyjordan5521
I'm curious how the people of Lemhi finding the Jaredite books comes into play. They found the books with lots of dead folks, and they found it while looking for Zarahemla, so there kinda has to be a route from the Land of Nephi to that Jaredite battle location...
In my opinion, the mesoamerican model has a pretty solid answer for this. I haven’t seen the different heartland model responses to this question, so maybe they have something good to add, but for the mesoamerican model, it’s that they either went up the Usimacinta or Grijalva river (whichever one Zarahemla wasn’t on, and their headwaters are close enough it would be reasonable to mistake one river for the other) and then returned the same way, thinking Zarahemla had been destroyed.
The Heartland Model proposes that Zarahemla was across the Mississippi River from modern Nauvoo, IL, and that Lehi-Nephi was in the southern Appalachian Mountains of Kentucky or Tennessee. About 400 miles of straight-line travel separates these locations. The Mississippi, Ohio, and Tennessee Rivers, and their tributaries cover this area and enabled expansive travel by native tribes. This model proposes that the Adena culture of the Early Woodland Period (1000-200 BCE) was the Jaredites, and the Hopewell culture of the Middle Woodland Period (200 BCE-500 CE) was the Nephites. The lands of the Hopewell were eventually more expansive, but covered largely the same territory as the Adena, throughout the Midwestern United States. This means that Limhi's failed expedition to locate Zarahemla returned with the 24 gold plates and other artifacts from the ruins of the Jaredites while traveling through the territory both cultures had spanned at different times. If you have ever done any travel in a wilderness area, you can easily understand how even slightly navigation error can result in arriving at an unintended location. I hope this information is useful to you.
@@JRDATX "The Heartland Model proposes that Zarahemla was across the Mississippi River from modern Nauvoo, IL, and that Lehi-Nephi was in the southern Appalachian Mountains of Kentucky or Tennessee."
As the LDS anthropologist Tom Murphy has pointed out, such theories are racist, because they propose a false, unsupported idea about authentic native American origins and culture. There is no cultural or DNA evidence that any native Americans in the areas you name are descended from ancient Hebrews. DNA evidence shows that all native Americans are descended from Asians who crossed into the Americas 20k+ years ago. The Book of Mormon story is an insult to authentic native American history and traditions.
@@randyjordan5521your statement that “all” native Americans descended from Asian ancestors is incorrect. Many, including the Iroquois tribes around the Great Lakes area, carry clear middle eastern DNA markers. Tom Murphy did his research in Central America, but apparently he knew very little about the Cayuga, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Seneca, Ojibwe and Potawatomi living in the Eastern United States. Those are the natives that the book of Mormon refers to, and those are the tribes that carry middle eastern DNA.
@@shanermcdoogle
LOL. Tom Murphy's primary interest is in the North American tribes because of his own native ancestry. Tom specifically stated:
"Is there evidence for "Jewish" or Middle Eastern DNA in Native American populations?
"No, probably not. Proponents of the "Heartland" theory for the Book of Mormon have argued that Haplogroup X (which is present in North American native populations[29]) is evidence for the Book of Mormon,[30] but their arguments have neither been accepted by mainstream non-Latter-day Saint scientists nor by Latter-day Saint geneticists who accept Book of Mormon historicity."
Five months ago, LDS geneticist Ugo Perego appeared on the "Mormonism With The Murph" UA-cam channel. He debunked the decades-long argument of Mormon apologists' re: "Haplogroup X" by stating:
"Haplogroup X is not evidence for the Book of Mormon to be true....the one found in America is not a descendant of the one found in the Middle East. It is a sister group. It is not an ancestral or a descendant group."
According to LDS doctrine, every human on earth died in the global flood circa 4500 years ago, except for the eight people aboard Noah's ark. The ark landed in the Middle East, and the human race began repopulating from there.
Joseph Smith stated that the "Jaredites" were the first humans to occupy the Americas after the flood. That means that ALL native Americans' DNA should be closely related to that of their Semitic/Hebrew cousins who still live in the Middle East. DNA testing should also show that those two groups became separated from each other around 4500 years ago.
Because Ugo Perego concedes that prehistoric Asians entered the Americas during the last Ice Age, and that they began living there many centuries before "Book of Mormon times," Perego is telling us that he does not believe in LDS doctrine, and that Joseph Smith cannot be relied upon for accurate information re: the ancient inhabitants of the Americas.
We should keep in mind that when Jesus appeared to the Nephites, the geographic face of the land literally changed. Earthquakes destroyed cities and landforms, other cities were flooded and the surrounding areas covered with water. I love this topic and it's so fascinating, but can we really know? I have always pictured it as the Mexican Highland model you showed. (Sorry to the Prime Minister of Malaysia)
Also, didn't the Brother of Jared speak the Adamic language? There was only one language until they were confounded?
Definitely what I was hoping someone would bring up!
Not true at all. Sorenson demonstrates i. Hos study that the overall change was minor. Mostly surface of the earth had been broken and changed in the destruction, but the fundamental geographical areas were still the same. Some hills had vanished and some valleys covered and some cities sunk, but this doesn't change the map overall that much.
LOL. There is no evidence of any major changes in topography in the western hemisphere circa 33 AD. Mayan cites and culture were not affected by any such alleged land upheaval.
@@randyjordan5521 ⚠️ LOGIC ALERT ⚠️
@@randyjordan5521 Jerry Grover's _Geology of the Book of Mormon_ undermines your "no evidence" claim. It may not be proof but it's certainly evidence that supports at least one Book of Mormon geography model.
Heartland timelines fit BOM time,
New York, Niagara escarpment = narrow neck in the natives language.
Climate does change over time, there are many scientists claiming that Iceland wasn’t always temperate, climate is the one reasons they give but it falls on its face.
I've been searching for Nephite ruins on a vacant lot on the corner of 3rd and Elm in La Paz, Bolivia. Nothing yet.
Have you looked with your spiritual eyes?
I'm a "heart-lander" that is waiting for the record of Christ's dealings with the people of Meso-America to be found and translated...I think that we can't appreciate the way the land changed at the time of Christ's visit to the people and how so much is different than it was. I really think that we're not going to know until it is revealed because we need to exercise faith. first. This was a fun episode!
Yep, you just need to exercise faith. Just like the members of the Heaven's Gate cult exercised their faith that a UFO was hiding behind the Hale-Bopp comet and it was going to take them aboard after they took poison and killed themselves. Just have faith.
You are employing circular reasoning, meaning that you are using what is written in the BOM to try to support the authenticity of the BOM. In order to legitimately argue for its authenticity, you have to set aside what the book says and consider what actual scientific research says---and the science says that there is no evidence of any upheaval of American land masses circa the 1st century AD.
Don’t forget Moroni was alone for like 30+ years or something like that, and he was avoiding Lamanites and other groups of people the whole time. No matter where the majority of the BoM took place, he could have ended up in New York with all that time to travel.
Where did you get that info? I don't think the Book of Mormon says he spent 30 years alone...
Mormon 8:6 and Moroni 10:1. 20 years at least from Mormons death to Moroni final words in BoM.
The girl from the Testaments was my drama teacher lol
Y’all gotta invite Wayne may on the show. His evidence for the heartland model is fascinating. Definitely worth looking into.
I don't think he has the best "hard" evidence, but the anecdotes he has from local Medicine Givers is pretty cool.
@@TheYgdsMay presents TONS of hard evidence. What is lacking for you?
@@vendingdudes He has a lot of anecdotes that are very convincing. His "hard" evidence is tainted by a poor history and a lot of forgeries. I think he makes some convincing cases for the layout of the land geologically, and handles some of the major complaints on that subject pretty well, but as for artefacts and other sundries, it doesn't pass muster.
If Wayne May's pronouncements are authentic, they would be accepted by legitimate professional archaeologists.
If you trust Joseph Smith, go with what he said. If not, it doesn't matter.
Why? His opinion on BOM geography evolved over his life due to lack of evidence in upstate New York and emerging evidence in Guatemala. Clearly nothing he said settled the debate in any way.
@@redfightblue his opinion absolutely did not change over his life. Look at the evidence Jonathan Neville uncovered. He's an amazing researcher.
It absolutely did, otherwise all active LDS would be in agreement and you wouldn't have the complete mess you have now.
You do realize active LDS are literally fighting over this? Why? It's because Joseph Smith was vague and non-committal. He clearly jumped on the Guatemala band wagon as quickly as he could.
Jonathan Neville has said nothing to convince anyone that Jews lived in the Heartland. This is bonkers and not believed. It's just a total bunch of nonsense. There's no evidence whatsoever. Sorry about that.
@@Greg-McIver
Heartlanders do have one support to their argument that wasn't mentioned - although I know that this might be seen as tenuous anyways, given the expanse in time - but DNA research into the Hopewell does better connect them with Israeli region peoples than other groups in the Americas.
No it doesn't. LDS geneticist Ugo Perego has statted that DNA research does not constitute evidence to support the BOM story at all.
The reason DNA doesn't support the Heartland model is because DNA changes are based on Darwinian evolution instead of on actual changes in DNA over known generations.
@@VickiRasmussen My point is more that the X marker which demonstrates people from a place other than Asia, not saying that its direct proof of Nephites.
I agree. My reply was to Randy.
@@deseretrebel4590 " My point is more that the X marker which demonstrates people from a place other than Asia, not saying that its direct proof of Nephites."
The "haplogroup X" DNA admixture which Bok of Mormon defenders have been pushing for the last 30 years or so occurred in the Old World, thousands of years before "Book of Mormon times." Therefore, it has no relevance to the BOM story at all.
"Haplogroup X is not evidence for the Book of Mormon to be true....the one found in America is not a descendant of the one found in the Middle East. It is a sister group. It is not an ancestral or a descendant group."---Ugo Perego
There is NO evidence of any Hebrew-Semitic DNA admixture into the western hemisphere circa 2500 or 600 BC as the BOM claims. In fact, Joseph Smith stated that the first humans to occupy the Americas after the great flood were the "Jaredites." That means that if the BOM story is authentic, ALL humans who lived in the Americas before Columbus would have had to be descended from the "BOM people." And since the BOM claims that those people were Semites/Hebrews from the Middle East, then if the BOM is true, ALL full-blooded native Americans should be virtually cousins in their DNA makeup to Semites living in the Middle East today.
Those guys on the stick of Joseph, rad dudes. Be nice. Invite them on.
We've had them on many times. We went to Jordan with them and we collaborate often.
Brad, two very large gold mines are found in Tennessee and Michigan
Copper pits all over too
Nope. Copper pits.
I think Heartland models seem to be the most accurate in line with the totality of the information we have and research done. I’m not entirely closed off to meso America as a plausible alternative. I’m surprised no one mentioned the Delaware model, although I guess that could be lumped in with heartland technically.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
it's not a geographic text. And there are still people groups in the Bible that are unaccounted for archaeologically, despite substantial research.
@@lemjwp1756 Joseph Smith made clear statements about Book of Mormon events, locations, and people, including this:
"In this important and interesting book, the history of America is unfolded,
from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the
confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian
era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been
inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and
came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the
city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were
principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were
destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded
them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second
race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnent are
the Indians that now inhabit this country." (Joseph Smith Jr., published in
Times and Seasons March 1, 1842 and in History of the Church, Vol 4).
So according to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon people were the first humans to inhabit the Americas after the Noachic flood. That means that ALL Pre-Columbian native Americans had to descend from the Book of Mormon people. Therefore, artifacts of their presence should be scattered all over the Americas.
In that light, the Book of Mormon is indeed a "geographic text." If all native Americans are not descended from the Book of Mormon people as Joseph Smith said they were, then neither he or the book have any credibility.
Nobody really knows for certain the burial tomb location of Jesus Christ, which is probably one of the most significant geographical locations in all Christendom. Natural disasters, wars, migration, genocide, and human destruction of native history and language during colonization of the Americas plays a huge part in not knowing for certain where Book of Mormon geography took place; but there are volumes of historical evidence of ancient civilizations in the area, and the Algonquin language similarities with Hebrew is no coincidence.
The biggest meso American cope is that a seafaring people didn’t know which way north and south were
Why, what a good point you have!
Seafaring people? LOL
Enjoyed this episode.. very entertaining and informative as well.. you guys are overlapping the Stick of Joseph guys with this topic :)
For a good Sorenson Mesoamerican model spokeperson, Brant Gardner is excellent, but if you want a younger guy you can try Stephen Smoot, or possibly Neal Rappleye. Also Jerry Grover has written extensively on the geography of that model and how it fits very well with the destruction described in 3 Nephi preceding the coming of Christ.
I've been partial to Sorenson's model for about 30 years, after first reading his earlier work "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon". He published an updated version of that model in his "Mormon's Codex" book which his last published work on that subject. I have read both books and they are very detailed and well written. To me, that model is the most scientific and 'scholarly' of all the models I've seen and requires a lot of reading and study to fully appreciate it. IMHO, It is not as well marketed as the Heartland model as you don't have charismatic guys like Wayne May and Rod Meldrum to promote it - just normal BYU professors :)
The other models just don't cut it for me - I'm a science nerd so am a big fan of models that are the most scientific in nature :)
You should check out a choice land. They have a very robust approach and I find it extremely consistent and thorough!
@@GadiantonsRobber - Thanks, I'll check it out. It piqued my interest, though I'm kind of skeptical since it had the land of Zarahemla too far north of the land of Nephi, but I'm open to new theories and/or modifications of existing good ones.
Kwaku was in his bag on this one 😂
Brad widbeck...I am a full blooded Lakota Sioux native...in my patriarchal blessing I am called a lamenite. I holy agree with the heartland model and to mabe give proof of people backgrounds what tribe are they from? I am from manassah and usually see gentiles from Ephraim so Brad ask those people what tribe are they from?
If you've been to Baja, you know it's not there. It's all hot, super windy desert. Very desolate with limited ground water and long dry spells, no timber and damned inhospitable. Plus the fact that there is very little archeological discoveries there which are limited to very small nomadic type tribes of natives.
I've been there, and driven it twice, if you like Driscoll bearies they all come from Baja! It's a bread basket! For produce! Just have to plant those seeds from Jerusalem and make some canals for water and you have best fruit 🍓🍑 on earth.😮
Guys, I really Enjoy your show. Please get Get Wayne May, Rod Meldrum or Jonathan Neville on your show. Really though Joseph said the Nephites were in this land, he pointed out were the city Zarahemla and Manti were, that is all we should really need. However many of the heartland tribes have so many connections to the BOM and ancient covenant Israel. Many tribes wore ceremonial woven robes with tassels and loin clothes made of linen ,not hides, they wore braids on the sides of their heads like the Jewish side locks, they made altars of stone for prayer and covenants, most wrote in a Hebrew or Egyptian language, raised and spun linen, were smelters, used cement, have knowledge of their for fathers who came across the great sea and have the 10 commandments. I saw a video were a man was interviewing a tribal leader or Elder (from the heartland area) on their history and the Elder got out his written book of records(since they learned English) of their Chiefs and what years they served. It was then that the interviewer saw that all the Names were the same, the Elder explained that the Chief or Head Elder would go by the name "Nephi" as that was the name of one of their ancestor and leader, he pronounced the name as "Knee-fee" but it was spelled the same as it is in the BOM. Thousands of artifacts are being held and are not being allowed into the museums or into the history of these people. I have a family member who was a man of science not a man of Faith or an Lds, he was high up in the Archeology world, he saw evidence for the BOM all over but I'm guessing it would not fit into the historical or educational narrative. If you want to see hundreds of correlations between some of these heartland tribes and the BOM and ancient Israel I recommend The Annotated Edition , The Book Of Mormon translated by Joseph Smith Jr. Compiled and edited by: David R. Hocking and Rod L. Meldrum
At no point did Joseph Smith or anyone else ever point out where Zarahemla or Manti was. Every reference you are going to pull out to try and support your false assertion is either Joseph Smith or someone else saying they will build a city and name it Zarahemla or Manti. There is also a Manti in Utah.
Helamen 3:3 says they went northward, Helaman 3:6-7 and Helamen 3:10 says that there was no timber so they built houses using cement. The only place in North America that has that kind of geography and evidence of cement housing being used anciently is Arizona and Texas, mind you the Book of Mormon says all this is going on North of the main body of Nephites or where the story has been taking place. There are multiple other places that say they spread across the land, which is why you see evidence of some Nephite culture so far north.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
@randyjordan5521 get out of here anti troll
@@nathantibbitts6415 Hey, thanks for chiming in! You got any thoughts on where those hundreds of thousands of Hebrew-descended, Law of Moses- keeping, horse and chariot-riding, forged steel and weaponry-making, large cities from sea to sea-building Nephites and Lamanites lived?
Because it's been 194 years since the Book of Mormon was published, and not a single Mormon leader, scholar, or apologist has been able to pinpoint where that thousand-year existence and culture even took place. In fact, church leaders have repeatedly advised members not to speculate on possible locations---and yet, this UA-cam program is doing exactly that.
A thousand years ago, ancient Norse sagas told of Viking voyagers sailing west and discovering a new land. For many years, scholars speculated that it referred to the Americas. And then in the 1960s, an actual Viking settlement was discovered in Newfoundland. Artifacts unearthed at the site matched known Viking materials from the same era, and that confirmed the ancient sagas. We don't know whether those explorers came on just one ship, or a hanfdul of ships, or how many people were in the party, or how long they stayed. They might have only been there a year or two, then they might have starved, been killed by natives, or returned to Europe. But the fact is, that small, short-lived party of Europeans left artifacts of their existence in the New World.
So if the Book of Mormon story is authentic, there should be A MILLION TIMES MORE EVIDENCE to support it than there is for that small Viking settlement. So I repeat: the fact that Book of Mormon hobbyists are still clueless as to where its events even took place, 194 years after its publication, SCREAM that it didn't happen ANYWHERE. These people like Wayne May and Rodney Meldrum are giving people like you false hope.
1Nephi 13 also mentions they came out of captivity to the promised land and Britain sent over tens of thousands of political prisoners and many who were in debtors prison.
The earth was changed at Christ’s death. We might never know.
I’m completely with Kwaku on this. Once you study the Baja model, everything in the BoM just makes so much sense. You just can’t go back!
Okay. Okay. You finally hooked me. After watching well over a dozen episodes (that I "liked") and not really being sure about you guys, you won me over with this one for a subscribe. Fascinating stuff. I'm also really curious about who "Ting" is...
Chichen Itzen in Mexico has 72 steps, 9 levels, and 3 empty tombs...I always figured it was there.
The California-Jardite model actually makes sense to me, because of how fertile a land it is and that it doesn’t have snow, (from what I understand, I don’t live there) and if it does, it’s not often. It’s a good place for year round crops, so it makes sense God would lead a people there.
The Book of Ether was written by Ethiopians. It is their retelling of how Israel was settled, by Ethiopians. The journey North was down the Nile to Egypt, then they sailed to Israel.
They believe Genesis 2:13. This means the Garden of Eden is in Ethiopia. They believe the "milk and honey" was brought from Ethiopia to Israel.
When Nephi said "prophets of old" in 1 Nephi 1:20, he was talking about Omer from the book of Ether. Moroni makes this clear in Ether 8:25 right before he describes how Omer was forced out of Israel and into Africa, just like Lehi was.
Both men were forced into Ethiopia. That's where the Book of Mormon takes place. Lehi was specifically commanded to journey to the Garden of Eden in 1 Nephi 8. Lehi could not stay in Egypt or he would be destroyed Jeremiah 44.
I sure ❤️ me some Kwaku! He is my brother in truth and understanding. His perspective always resonates with me!
Remember what Joseph Smith revealed during Zions Camp.
“Moroni’s America” by Jonathan Neville. Great book for insight on the Heartland model.
I love ward radio.
Remember that they were still commanded to follow the Law of Moses. Meso people admit there would have to be substitutions. Does the Lord accept substitutions?
I mean probably yeah… they were starting a brand new civilization at his request.
I'm sold on Wayne May. His presentations and books fill more requirements and answer more questions than any other researcher.
Me as well
What books by Wayne may?
FYI Book of Mormon timeframe is during the Roman warm period. They were even growing grapes in Britain then.
Who is the dude they keep filtering out?
I think it was Kirk Magleby
The New Jerusalem will be in Jackson Co., the church was organized in America, we never been under bondage since the revolution, the hill cumorah is in NY, sacred grove in NY, etc. just invite Rod Meldrum on the show and focus on what's in the revealed word. American Continent=Canada, Northern Mexico and USA.
Bruce Porter is a heartlander as well
hartland weakness missisipi river does not flow northward as the text says implyes also markers from mittle east ( arabs) are also found in central america talk to Brain Stubs .
I think one of the major influences that led to the Malaysia model was the story of the "Golden Bible" shared by people of the Karen tribe there. IIRC, the Karen had a story of a golden book about their true God that was taken from them to another place, and that in time would be returned to them. A whole host of Karen people also got baptized into (I think) the Catholic Church when they started proselytizing there because Christianity was very similar to the tribal religion they were already practicing. I also heard that one Karen person pointed out that the "Caracters" document had writing that he recognized as a sort of tribal "chicken scratch" or code language that the Karen people learn in their schools.
I don't think it is correct, but the anecdotes are pretty fun.
So many Karen jokes to be made here.....
These people have got to be Hagoth's!
I like the Heartland model, but I also think the model at 40:59 is super interesting.
Dating for the Heartland model matches better.
When the Mexico City temple was dedicated, President Hinckley said that Father Lehi was there.
I haven't heard of him being present for any temples north of there.
The Montauk native americans on Long Island, NY actually had chiefs with the name of Pharoah. There used to be mounds (some may still exist), too. Could you check into that scenario?
I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith and the scholars like Sorenson who supported the Mesoamerican model. The spatial and directional relationships are more consistent with actual geography. And you don't have to reverse the direction of the Mississippi or turn Buffalo, New York into a tropical paradise so the Lamanites don't get frostbite.....lol😂😅😂
Mark Wright is also right! Helaman 3:1-16. The people who traveled "an exceedingly great distance northward" are the only people who mention a north sea and a south sea. The rest of the BoM only mentions east and west seas.
Why would a prophet need to "support" a theory? At any point, any prophet could clear up any confusion, as is their calling.
Great Lakes cover all possible seas. Niagara River flows north
The Heartland model is the best, not least because of Joseph Smith’s utterings on the subject.
Heartland!!!
Those maps are awesome, thanks for sharing!
Joseph Smith literally said Zerahemla was across the river from Nauvoo
It wasn’t Joseph, it was the savior in D&C 125, verse three
My mistake , but I would add that Several of the prophets have told the saints that the book of Mormon took place here in North America so why are members still claiming it happened in Central America?
Unfortunately incorrect. The savior never said that it was Zarahemla, just to name it that
Quoth the Brethren, "Speculation on the geography of the Book of Mormon may mislead instead of enlighten; such a study can be a distraction from its divine purpose.
... the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles URGE leaders and members not to advocate those personal theories in any setting or manner that would imply either prophetic or Church support for those theories. All parties should strive to AVOID CONTENTION on these matters." IMHO, any group that advocates, including criticizing (ahemMartlanders, cough cough) Church leaders for not agreeing, profiting from , leading others towards their so-called correct theories, or holding for-profit conferences around their evidence, are leading themselves into priestcrafts. WARD Radio guys did a great job of not falling into any of those traps and delivered a great, even-handed, and entertaining show.
Indeed, church leaders don't want members to speculate on BOM locations because they know very well that no evidence will ever be found.
This is the main reason I lean meso... so much contention from the other side if I as much as mention it.
Brad clearly isn't American... Louisiana is not Florida.
Indeed, but to give him the benefit of the doubt, he did say Florida panhandle, and a portion of Louisiana was once part of the Florida panhandle. I grew up in one of the Florida parishes in Louisiana.
Timber rattlesnakes actually are known to live in much higher and coler elevations than suspected.
Been suggesting Jerry Grover to meet with ya! You would love it!
Wayne May has it right. Heartland makes the most sense scripturally, geographically, linguistically and has the most probable archeological evidence.
There's zero evidence. Nothing makes sense. Nobody believes Jews lived in America. Nobody. There's no archeological evidence, There's absolutely no linguistic evidence. The geography is a complete disaster. It's pure fantasy invented in frontier America to explain the Native America Indian.
50:23 it’s also a way for the promises of the Book of Mormon to apply to as many people as possible
When are you going to have Rod Meldrum on here? Hannah Stoddard from the Joseph Smith institute?
They did an interview with Hannah Stoddard.
Heartland all the way. Lehi parks in the gulf and they migrate northward on the Mississippi. Michigan, Ohio…We end in NY with Moroni praying in the snow.
Christ appeared in MesoAmerica (and many other places) but that isn’t where the Book of Mormon takes place. 🎉🥳
love you guys!
It also needs to be considred that halfway through the BoM there was such changes to the land that mountains were made low and whree there were no mountains, mountains shot up. Cities were thrown into the sea, etc. etc.
Memphis is the biggest city in Tennessee, but Nashville is the capital
Yeah I laughed at that too
This is like watching children debating where Santa and his Elves live at the North Pole.
I am in the Lapland school of thought. I reject the traditional North Pole Theory.
9:25 sorry Brad, but volcanoes are NOT mentioned in the BOM, it is a sweeping assumption, nothing more.
Eh, it makes a lot of sense to me that it would be a volcano, but I could see it being something else too. Do you have an alternate theory on it you'd like to share?
@@bradwitbeck sure it makes sense as a theory (and could even be the case), but it’s good to be clear that they are not specifically mentioned. The prevalence on the meso theory can easily lead to assumptions becoming fact and this may mean we end up missing the mark.
@@Heartsinmelody ah, good call to make the distinction that the scriptures don't specifically say the destruction was made by a volcano.
New York area was not cold during Him times, it was actually quite warm. Way different place now than it was back then. Also water level was much higher.
BOM geography is so much fun. I'm not sure if I missed a part but Joseph Smith mentioned mounds in various states? Am I getting that wrong? It's been a while but I watched a video here on UA-cam few years ago about the BOM geology and mentions Joseph Smith passing by mounds where bodies were covered after great battles. You might have mentioned that already.
I can look it up if you'd like.
Thanks for the time you put into these episodes👌😊. I'm a smart mouth at times but I appreciate what you do. In real life I'm the most clownish person in this planet🤣🤣🤣.
Hopewell, mounds, manifest destiny…lots of American fingerprints!
Indian burial mounds are located all over the eastern US region.
During my mission, I saw ruins in Belize that had been fortified exactly like the BoM describes Captain Moroni had the cities fortified.
We pointed to the top of the huge earthen promontory surrounding the city center, and asked the archeologist working the site if there used to be a wooden parapet on top.
He was very surprised and told us that they did find residues there that they thought were from a long-gone wooden parapet.
He asked us how we knew about that and we discussed the book of Mormon. I don't remember if we shared a copy with him, because we were there on our preparation day but maybe my companion had a copy in his bag.
Sadly, I wasn't diligent in keeping a journal and have lost many wonderful memories because of that.
If that is the area where the BOM events occurred, then there should be 1000 more physical artifacts in the same area to prove that. There should be artifacts of Hebrew writing, Judeo-Christian worship and iconography, domesticated horse usage, widespread use of forged iron tools and weaponry, buildings made of cement which stretched "from sea to sea," etc. The fact that a single architectural feature resembles something written in the BOM is merely coincidental, not actual evidence.
I think ya'll were bleeping out Kirk Magleby from Scripture Central 😆
I find the models that embrace larger regions (like the last one, the Weaver model) more convincing, not because the narrative covers larger areas but because larger models echo known eastern cultural distributions/migrations better.
If river travel were true, there would be drastic different times it would take to go from a-b vs b-a, which I don’t think we see in the BOM
Possibly, but I can't think of references where comparative back and forth times might be mentioned
My question is how does the geographical location of the land of bountiful correlates with where Lehi and his family left? What might all connect better?
I'm in favor of the Heartland model. We know ware the Hill Camora is and Zarahemla. We have what Joseph Smith said about the heartland area. So for me I will take what a Prophet has taught vs a scholar.
The Hill Cumorah in New York is not the Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon and was not called the Hill Cumorah until the mid-1830s, long after Joseph had retrieved the plates from the hill. There’s no evidence from the 1820s and 30s that Joseph Smith ever called this the Hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery was the one who started calling it “Hill Cumorah” and it caught on and became the name the Saints culturally assigned to the hill. The first time Joseph Smith calls it Cumorah, which is recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 128, is after the membership had already started calling it by that name, and Latter-day Saints have been calling it Cumorah ever since.
This idea came from Mormon 6:6 which says “…I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord…” If you stop reading there, then you could say Joseph found the plates in this hill because Mormon said he buried them in the Hill Cumorah. However if you read the rest of the verse it says “…I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, *save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.”* In other words, Mormon buried all of the records he had in the hill Cumorah *except* the Book of Mormon record, which was later buried by Moroni. So the hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon is literally the place where Mormon or Moroni says the golden plates *are not* buried.
Joseph Smith never says where Zarahemla is. All that is said is to build a city and call it Zarahemla. That doesn't mean that was where Zarahemla was.
So if there's no physical evidence to place the BOM events in any area, Joseph Smith was a false prophet, right?
I am a little torn between Heartland and Baja. Heartland has some great links to the catastrophes in 3rd Nephi, but Lynn Rosenvall performed my sealing and his wife used to babysit me.
He is an incredibly smart man and my Dad (also very smart) went on the Baja tour and said it was very well done.
As such, I like the idea that post Alma 63 they went North. Best of both worlds.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
Learn about the New Madrid fault earthquakes
@@commoncents5191 LOL. Those earthquakes occurred in 1811-1812. I don't see what that has to do with the BOM story.
Any BoM map has to accomodate for the Manti temple site being set apart by Moroni for the temple as well as Hill cumorah being accessible.
Definitely a fan of the Weaver model, but that website it's on is something else.
The book and the map by Vinace Priddis AndesMountain range model is very compelling
The geographic models compete with each other. The Maxwell Institute scholars believe in a Meso-American model where the GAs have always said upstate New York state was the location. I have also heard of mid-west American, Great Lakes (which includes Canada), and South American. All of them have their faults as a location for the Book of Mormon.
The fact that people still have no clue as to where the Book of Mormon people lived 193 years after the book's publication tells us that it didn't happen anywhere.
Kwaku is doing Will Sasso's impression of Jesse Ventura lol
I’m heartland all the way. The thing you have to remember is that the weather was not the same 2000 years ago in the northeast or mid sections of the USA or North America as they are now.
Watch more Wayne May videos
Joseph Smith stated that the work of Stephens and Catherwood in their published book was where the lands of the Book of Mormon would be found. That is in Mezoamerica. He also told two men, separately, that Moroni traveled from central America up through the rocky mountains and the east. Both men later drew maps that were almost identical showing the route he told them about. I have seen these maps and they are very similar. The Heartland theory doesn't hold water. The Mezoamerican theory is, by far, the most plausible.
I personally prefer the Heartland Model.
I did get curious when Cardon stated that there wouldn't be much of a snake problem up by the frostline environments if New York; it turns out that there are three types of rattlesnake indigenous to NY: the timber rattlesnake, the massasauga rattlesnake, and the copperhead.
‘Up’ can also refer to elevation. Similar usage of up is also in the Bible.
The good thing about ward radio is how they have fun with these sometimes serious subjects. Book of Mormon geography shouldn't be the hill to die on. The church seems to focus on finding the remnant of Lehi rather than the cities of the Book of Mormon. That remnant is spread all over the Americas and to the Isles of the sea.
The more I research pre-Columbian people, the more evidence I discover that aligns with the prophets that the Lehites have been spread all over. The remnant of Lehi is spread amongst the Asian and other remnants. Those that Migratated from Siberia into North America. the people that helped fight against the moundbuilders near the Great Lakes with some of the most epic battles in the Americas. The oral traditions of the Navajo migration from Eastern US into the Southwest. North America migration of the Aztecs into Mesoamerica then Mesoamerican migrations into Midwest and Southern US. Then you have the vikin, Irish, and Welsh settlements in the Eastern US. All these migrations obscures the DNA and culture of the American Semitic Lehites.