If AI is being abused to replace artists, then pirating the cards and selling them outside the company would be the fairest thing to do, since the main reason for buying that card game is because it was known that human artists were It paid, and those artists with their beautiful work were the ones who fed our fantasy in the game. Now paying the same price for something that anyone already does in an AI program HAS NO VALUE, and what is not worth has no cost.
Actually in the time I was actively playing MTG, I was (most of the time) using proxy because of the prices of cards. OFC you cannot enter any tournament of the sort but MTG was at that time, a way to engage with people and make friends... so I made a lot of friends that I can talk today (10 or more years later). Same with yugioh cards that there a lot of fakes selling for low price so people can enjoy a game of cards with out selling an eye.
I sympathize very much with this approach, however, I guess most of the players don't care whether the artwork printed on the card was created by a human being or a machine. Unfortunately there is little reason for the company not to go full AI as we speak.
Thank you Tyler for creating and sharing this video, helping to inform and educate artists regarding the details and business practices of Wizards of the Coast. I hope it will lead to positive change for the artists in the near future. Donato
I just sent in my first sketches for them and already I'm experiencing issues I've never seen before as a freelancer. And yeah, this is by far my lowest paying job. And why don't I quit out of principle? Because they know that I, like so many, discovered fantasy art through MtG as a kid, and I cried like a kid when I finally got to the point in my career where I get to call some of the best artists in the world my colleagues. And they are counting on that. They know that I will put my soul into art that I've been dreaming about getting to paint since I was a teenager, and that I'll be willing to do it at any rate. Well, only for a while... Btw, we can get them to raise those prices with one discord group gathering, and one email, signed by all, threatening collective resignation. But someone else has to lead that movement, I'm literally a nobody, nobody would listen.
Very understandable, relatable even. Not there yet myself but definitely can see it going similarly. Seen people also increasingly talk about encouraging people to do just few MTG jobs and then just ride the recognition from that and produce more personal work for sale.
@@sjZhyren It just might not even be my choice. Such low rates are better replaced with an even lower rate for private commissions that come with no stress, no payment delays, no NDAs... I have to treat this dream job as something secondary, if I have the time for it.
@@sjZhyren yeah that’s the ideal scenario. Get your name on the brand, doesn’t mean you need to work for them unless you love it. And many do and that’s okay
I get it. BUT… It could also be a a way to realize, that the company you admired turns out to be the bad guy. Therefore maybe we should stop feeding our own downfall. I‘m super sad about it, but as long as people don‘t stop, they have everything to keep us small.
I followed that discussion and was wondering what the actual numbers would look like. So I did some math with openly available numbers and extrapolated them very conservatively. Turns out Illustrators in total are getting paid between 0.2% - maybe 1% of the revenue of any given set. That's kinda insane considering how the art is the games gateway and, for a lot of people, its USP.
That seems to be the business model involving artists. I am publishing a webtoon on Naver Canvas and the conditions to even begin earning revenue are...difficult. Even artists with 100k views earn basically nothing from it. However, the idea here is that Canvas gives you exposure to an audience that potentially will support you on Patreon or by donations. I just think it's nuts that you have to do your own marketing, despite alread delivering high quality comics on a tight schedule. But at least the artists keep their rights and can monetize in whatever way they want. To tell the artists: no you can't sell your originals second hand that is just bullying and indecency. I think hardly anyone realizes how much work this all is.
@@TylerEdlin84 I mean I could be wrong, since nobody besides WotC knows the actual numbers, but that's why I was using numbers very generously. But I'm fairly sure it's in that range.
@@kenzorman Sure! So what I looked at was the 2023 annual revenue of MtG, which was about $1.1B. MtG released 11 sets that year, so I divided that number up and ended up at an average of $100M per set. I then divided that number by half to account for overhead and production costs, ending up at $50M. Now, illustrator's rates vary a bit depending on the card and set, starting at a base rate of $1025 per standard card up to $3000 for Universes Beyond cards. The latter is due to contractual limitations not allowing artists to create physical illustrations or sell originals/art prints of those IPs. So I averaged the rate to $2000 per card. The average set size is about 260 cards. Not every card gets a new artwork, but they have a lot of special edition versions these days, so I kept the average number of 260 commissions per wave for simplicity sake. 260*$2000= $520.000, which would be about 1.04% of the $50M per set revenue. Obviously that number would be way smaller if you disregard overhead and production cost and only look at the total revenue of any given set or lower the base rate to $1025 instead of $2000. Hence the proposed variance of 0.2% - 1%. The real numbers will definitely vary, since I don't know the actual numbers going into every set, but I'm fairly certain it will be in that ballpark. Hope that helps!
Lots of people say to draw for yourself. And sometimes I do. But I often draw for my friends and family, and I'll be honest that's so much more gratifying. I draw little comics of our DnD campaign's hijinks and I feel so much joy and pride when the other players laugh at them. The best art is art that makes people feel something in my opinion. And when those people are people you care about, that's something extra special.
companies slowly implementing these things to soften the blow once we are all replaced by machines and there are no original ideas anymore , just nostalgia bait and live action adaptations of animated shows.
this is so sad, recently wizards oppened portfolio submission for MTG and DnD, there they stated very clearly that portfolio with AI generated work would be desconsidered immediately, when I read that I thought it was great, but apparently this might be just a temporary statement
After spending my entire career relying on my art skills to make a living, it’s frightening to think we are so undervalued and that these artists are having their own art used for training models on A.I. as well is just beyond the pale.
Madness, if they were illustrating for book covers, they’d be getting royalties, or under an illustration agency, the terms and duration of use would be outlined, with a significantly appropriate fee to reflect widespread usage. We need more guilds
Tyler, thanks for all the videos. I think it's important for artists to realize when they are being exploited and when a company simply can't afford more than they offer. It seems building our own brand is the best way. Then they have to come to us again ^^
This is a problem I've been dealing with for years, not from WOTC per se, but from companies not wanting to compensate me, trying to manipulate me into giving them free labor and a host of other ridiculous stunts. Navigating this business, is often not unlike a minefield, and it has been significantly harder to make a living doing illustration.
Clients often also believe that changes are unlimited, no matter what you put in the quote. They are far too accustomed to digital artists. And often the changes seem arbitrary. These companies have no respect for the work, even though they float out a lot of lip-service to the contrary. Unfortunately, WOTC will keep getting young artists because of “honor” of the company using your work. Best of luck to you. I hope you always find a way to be successful.
To me it's often more then 40 hours work. It's not just painting time on itself. But also communication, research, studying of the subject matter, finding props, photo shooting...ect, all the preparation things that come in to create work of the best quality. Clothing and props and models are also things you have to pay for, they are not free. Just wanted to point out that at least in my case, it often goes beyond 40 hours and there are also additional costs involved, but I'm sure it applies to many other illustrators as well.
Thanks, Tyler! Not just for this video, but also for all your previous videos! I love them and in all of them you either provide motivation, share awesome skills/techniques/or industry news. Keep it up!
Personally, I think the artists should quit working for Wizards of the Coast and either work for another company or go freelance. They deserve better than continuing to be used and abused by a corporation.
The issue is that Magic can get away with this because there are thousands of talented artists starving and willing to take pay cuts to work for them and suffer with a smile. They can afford to get rid of the god fathers of illustrations and let in new young artists. Consumers unfortunately do not care, it’s only the artists that are sadly affected, so many issues across our industry. You also know Donato probably was offered an immense paycheck that he turned down
Thanks Tyler, really well put together, thoughtful take on the issue. Great listen, you echo my internal monologue a lot here, especially about the transactional nature of the work, that is a trap, or misconception for many entering the industry, and their expectations. This was or is the same in the film/tv design world also.
Can we also mention the increasingly strange feedbacks and briefs? Especially working on characters. I’ve seen briefs where 90% of the informations were about lists of ethnicities to include in a fantasy race along with sexual identities (as if these were visual characteristics), on creatures like orcs, goblins and dragonborns of all things. It sounds crazy but it’s absolutely true. I would get multiple round of feedbacks because a female character didn’t look “in charge enough” or a male one was to masculine or serious and needed to look more like a happy sexy teenager, even tho the initial brief said the opposite. It’s has just become a nightmare working with them, artists should stop idolizing this company, they are not as they were in the 2010’s and earlier, stop thinking they are the same company. Especially if you like fantasy, you don’t like Wotc.
@@heroiam4067 wow I had no idea “. I can’t guarantee anything but feel free to email with any more details maybe it can be featured in a future follow up
This is sobering. I actually believed working on Magic the Gathering and for WotC would be far better what you described. I'm an artist and I imagined it would be a dream-job. It's so sad.
Yea screw these big companies that disrespect the artist with these contracts, let them drown in soul less AI. See how long they last. Every artist should refrain from ever working with wizards of the coast.
What I hate more than companies treating artists like shit, is artists accepting other artists being treated like shit and reacting only when it’s their turn. Donato has been a top tier name for more than two decades now. He was very happy to take Wizards’ money when they were giving him great rates and contracts while giving everyone else shit. He was extremely happy to charge people $500 for his dvds of him painting something. He was elated to settle the first time he sued Wizards for using his work unauthorized. Now that they’ve done it again he suddenly gives a shit? Now he’s the artist’s “hero” for writing a stupid post? Now he’s “fighting the good fight” that he has nothing to lose and is taking this company to court with a guaranteed payday? People like Donato are the bootlickers of companies like WotC so long as the company plays favorites with them. Donato and guys like him aren’t trustworthy, they’re thinking always about number one, which in this case just seems to align with the rest of us, but for twenty years he was a yesman. And if Wizards offers enough in a new settlement, his ass is gonna take it, post his panegyrics online and the shut up. He’s not gonna teach other artists to seek better work, he’s not gonna organize artists to get better pay, contracts and working conditions. His status as a top tier artist will amount to nothing but some faux online publicity for a day to get him some cashola. Wizards with continue to be who they are and artists will continue to take the dick as they have because they can’t organize and get their heads out of their asses lest they don’t paint for something they are fans of. Idiots all. F them and F Donato.
It's funny, I've been working with Wizards for the last two years on D&D and thought the pay was great! Or at least, much better than what I usually get on client work. Granted, I live in a third world country and don't paint traditionally, so many of these problems may not apply, but I guess that goes to show you lowballing artists are the norm.
good thing that larian stop working with Wizards of the Coast's. it is sad that larian will not working bdg3. however if it will be toxic relation ship with Wizards of the Coast's
exploitation is systemic. the decreasing value of labor, financialization, and the weakening empire have brought this exploitation further inwards. corporations are not democratic and the ceo's one and only responsibility is to maximize profits for the next quarter.
Let's remember that MTG was the most famous, until YugiOH arrived, then Chaotic, then Hearthstone and then Legends of Runeterra. And there will be many more card games in the future, so there is hope as long as you open your mind to more possibilities.
There's an easy fix for this: Establish an official artist licensing program. (Most countys already have a Department of Art) Force artist to comply with the Ethics established within the guildlines and advise against CONTRACTS with Companies that are Blacklisted due to breach of ethics. Of course, this is going to need to take place accross multiple stages and universities, goverments, various state legal departments... so on. The oversight needed for artest protection is important for society. We all take art from granted, but we all need it.
artists have failed every single time when bargaining collectively, its an individualistic field with everyone out-competing each other , when first world artists do it then other artists around the globe see an oportunity to under-cut them and take those positions
@@j.2512 real , and I'm speaking from a guy whose living in a third world country , 200USD might be cheap change there and I've witnessed some of my American friends scoff off the offer of clients with that kind of budget , but 200USD is enough to feed me and my cat and pay my bills for a month. art is competitive .
@@veneficarius I’m sure people always reach out directly. Keep in mind if the work isn’t up to par or even close it may just agitate them. The company does have a portfolio drop place somewhere on the site. Most folks I know new someone on the inside and got a referral.
If people collectively stood up for themselves....As in understanding the value of your art work, like, how are they using the work, on the cards, on advertising, on point of purchase, other marketing materials.... licensing is a thing. There is a cost per item on the aforementioned. And you should be able to license for 1 year, 2 years and then charge a recurring fee for use thereafter reissuing of license. This is how illustration everywhere else is produced, and sold, especially in the design industry. In fact the AIGA go into great detail and instruction, including resources for this including documents that can help (disclaimer: really you should seek your own legal advice for all contracts). The illustrator guide to Law and Business Practice by the AOI (UK) is also an informative read. It's in a companies interest to pay one off low fees for work as they have an illustration heavy product, which is their business challenge (seemingly they have solved btw)... Collectively everyone should just say no, but the market is operating as a giant prisoners dilemma.
It seems to me like Hasbro has been continually raising the revenue expectations for MTG over the last half-decade. I'd imagine squeezing labor like this is part of that push.
This sounds like comic book indistry pre image comics. A group of good fantasy artist and writers need to come together to give them some. Possibly crowd fund the project. Make it an environment where other artost would like to join the team or contribute through providing incentives they aren't offering like royalties. Open development forum for this kinda of project could possibly help fans/future consumers feel a deeper connection to the development of this kind of project. Just an idea I'm throwing out there.
hasbro was looking at what some of the art pieces get on the secondary market and then scratched their head saying "we have tens of thousands of unique cards with unique art, what if we just own all of it from now on and then we'll rake in 10k+ for each on the secondary market (we'll figure this part out later) and we'll be rich(er)"
I'm not talented enough to paint for WotC, but I do sell altered art cards for 200+ dollars and my wait-list is currently goes about two years out. WotC pays a pittance that would put you into poverty even if you did over a dozen paintings a year. It would take me more than a month per a painting, but I can do 5 alter cards a week. Even if I was good enough to paint for WotC it would not be financially feasible or morally reasonable (as a father) for me to work for pennies. And both those revenue streams pale in comparison to what I make as a steelworker babysitting robots in a factory. Art died a long time before AI came along, the parasitic shareholder class already killed it.
Never heard good things about Wizards of the Coast. I just got into Magic the Gathering, and I do like the game... But the company behind it has made very questionable decisions in the past. From a consumer point a view, right now a lot of MTG fans are not happy about WotC branching outside of the MTG IP. Like they plan on adding Marvel and Cartoon characters like Spongebob to the game. A lot of people get into the game because of the art and lore of the main universe and it can be quite immersion breaking to see other IPs within the game. WotC has also been known to get political too. People just want to play the game as a form of escapism. Sad to see artists are also getting the short end of the stick all in the name of WotC prioritizing profit at the expense of the quality of the game as well as the business relationships they've made over the years.
I thought the whole deal was kinda that they pay you to paint, but you get to keep and resale what you painted... if that's no longer the case that's bullshit, they should be paying at least 10x the price if they don't get to keep it. That one female Magic artist was also caught stealing Donato's art not too long ago... Extra upsetting cause one of my favorite artists Justin Gerard has recently started doing Magic art -.- My favorite Magic artist though Wayne Reynolds has been there a long time and I don't think he has ever done any Universes Beyond?
WoTC are pulling a Dana White and cutting their artists sponsors off (selling the proofs/prints and supplementing their base rate). If your into MMA you'll know how well that's gone for their contracted fighters. They also dont have a union and are amazed by the bright lights of the company and their peers, so no one rallies with each other and they fight for the scraps, literally. Would be best to get artists to unite against these predatory business practices, or they wont have any reason to change.
It’s crazy to see one of the inspirations I had to start drawing as a kid in the 90s fall so low against artists. Artists should stop working for wizards. Let them use the ai I wonder how long that will last. Not to mention most artists all over the internet are mostly shoehorned into doing fan art so it’s not surprising magic is doing it. No one cares about your original art. Sculpture geek, Steven richter, and most others that have a big following really only do fan art. I hate it and it’s very boring to me but that’s what most people want to see. It’s one of the main reasons I don’t try and start an art channel or a patreon with my sculpts.
can you please talk about how to balance my art life and my non art life? i currently am studying graphic design which may sound good but living in a terrible country makes this major terrible too. and i'm a new artist trying to reach the industry standards of digital painting. i don't have a teacher or a mentor (can't find a worthy one here + can't afford it). i'm asking you this out of despair because even tho i'm such a person that has done many various things and am pretty serious in persuing something, i still am really really struggling to make this balance. i'm always burning out even tho i try so hard not to. all these responsibilities fill up my mind. thank you if you read this message, you're always a savior to me, no matter what
@@TylerEdlin84 yes i did and it was actually pretty useful, thank you for that. but what i'm struggling with is more about the "switch" between my art life and non artistic life. i have to be focused in arts to have quality time instead of mindless doodling. and juggling makes it hard to concentrate you know. if you find this topic worthy enough and had the time, i would be so glad to see you talk about it. have a nice day/night
The only way to not get exploited by companies is to be your own boss. I'm not where I want to be as an artist or as an entrepreneur, but I know that my time and energy are being spent to build something that nobody can take from me. I just can't imagine how working for a company is a better long term choice than building your own. If you're already pursuing commercial art anyway, the (additional) risk seems minimal at most. If you're not securing a bag, I don't understand the rationale behind giving these clowns any of your time. ESPECIALLY if you're elite enough to get hired in the first place.
Wizards of the Coast are not interested in their _games_ . Wizards of the Coast have shifted over to a model where they are only interested in the cross-marketability of their brand. D&D Beyond is only tangentially associated with their actual game. It mainly exists as a tightly controlled advertising marketplace to 19 million captive consumers. The games mean nothing to them anymore, it's all about the brand deals, and 'lifestyle branding'. It's sad, but artists, writers, gamers, all of them are completely worthless to WoTC. All three of those categories think too much, all three critique too much. But the person who buys everything Marvel and doesn't care about the games and drama? That's the person they want. They're the type that just buy the Spiderman Magic Cards without a thought of how that dilutes the actual lore of the MTG universe. There are other places for artists and writers to go, though. It just takes breaking free of the belief that you have to work for the behemoth in the room. It might mean taking a downgrade in pay if it's for a smaller company. I'd personally go with Paizo, with DC20, with Kobold Press, any of the other game companies out there. Yes, it'll be flooded, but from the last that I heard, these other companies tend to treat creatives far better than WoTC has in years.
If wizards wants low effort slop then that is what they will get. Sadly most of their players are stockholm syndrome'd and refuse to play anything else.
Hey everyone, let's talk about something serious: the exploitation of freelance artists by massive companies like Wizards of the Coast. They’re limiting our rights, paying low wages, and blocking secondary markets that have been essential for artists to make a living. Look at what happened to top-tier artists like Donato Giancola-he’s calling out Wizards for these unfair practices, and he's not alone. It's time we take action together and hold these companies accountable. If you're an artist facing these issues, let's gather, stand united, and file a class action lawsuit to demand fair treatment. Let me know your thoughts below; we deserve better!
correct me if I am wrong but way I took it regarding Magic: for instance your art is Star Wars based but work you do for the Gathering is LotR based. so if you work for them you can't sell commissioned traditional painting of Star Wars because of their contracts? that is total BS
Yes, you're wrong. First of all, you're technically not legally allowed to sell fan art, since you're profiting from intellectual property owned by someone else (either a person or a company), this has always been the case, even though companies usually don't lose time going after fan artists who sell a few prints or paintings, it's never been legal, if one wants to be very nitpicky even simply _sharing_ fanart for free online is breaking the law. Second, the issue the video is about is that if you're a Magic artist and are working on, say, a Star Wars themed card, you're not allowed to sell the original artwork anymore, something that's been allowed in the past (and I assume it is still the case for regular Magic cards), it doesn't affect what the artist does outside that specific commission.
Gotta be honest, I fail to see why anyone gives their money to WotC anyway. It's clear that companies like this hate artists, I'd love to see what'd happen if every artist refused to work with them - we'd see a change overnight.
Universes beyond continues to be a common thread across everything I don’t like about where magic is going. I grew up loving the game for its artwork, but as time goes on I am less and less interested in supporting the brand.
AI art will take over MTG (and D&D). New artwork is massive overhead that the company can largely eliminate by using AI. They WILL do it. Make no mistake.
The trouble is, if a lot of people heard they were lowballing that badly or using AI, they’d stopped buying the new cards. I don’t play MtG anymore but when I did, the art was a huge part of it. Serra Angel was one of my favorite cards simply because I loved the art on it (and the artist’s name also happened to relate to me in a specific way). I know some people wouldn’t care, but some of us most definitely would. I’m not super anti-AI or anything, but I still want artists to be acknowledged and fairly compensated.
@@tarabooartarmy3654 most consumers really don't care how the product is made, outside of artists themselves and a very small niche of art fans no one even cares who drew what or how, they just want the branded product
@ it depends on the product. In some niches, almost no consumers would care. In some, a great many would care. You have a certain percentage of people who specifically buy handmade from Etsy, for example, because they want to support artisans and artists. But yes, most people don’t care, especially in regular stores.
All these arguments you make only apply to Universes Beyond. There are many legal issues involved when working with major companies and the likeness of their characters. You even admit this at the end of your video. Because Wizards doesn’t apply this to their original content and IP art pieces, this video is moot. Of course, when you work for Wizards creating art for an IP that Wizards doesn’t own, there will be red tape. This is honestly not even worth talking about. It’s just business and is nothing unique to WoTC. We know “Wizards bad”, but this is clickbait and a non issue.
@@v464x okay so you are fine with the fact that wizards only pays 1250 and pretty much hasn’t moved on this at all? That they can pay for one commission, then have rights full reproduction and royalties to monetize indefinitely without ever giving back a residual to the creator? Ouch
Screw working for companies. Or studios. Lets collab together and make our own stuff our own way. Pretty easy to distribute. We have skype (sure theres others but thats the name i know), free programs like blender, gimp,audacity,shotcut,unity,unreal,papayago, places that will make a web site for you rather cheaply. World wide knowledge at your fingertips. Why are you still giving them control? I really thought when yt first came out, once everyone knew about it and figured out how to work it, we'ld see tons on people making movies and shows and documentaries, etc. Thought it would be a revolution of artists. And put power bcak into their hands instead of the corporations. We dont need corporations. We can do alot of ourselves now. Youve gotten so used to the internet, you forgot how amazing and helpful it can actually be. We can transform this crap real easy. Come on! Lets go!
If AI is being abused to replace artists, then pirating the cards and selling them outside the company would be the fairest thing to do, since the main reason for buying that card game is because it was known that human artists were It paid, and those artists with their beautiful work were the ones who fed our fantasy in the game. Now paying the same price for something that anyone already does in an AI program HAS NO VALUE, and what is not worth has no cost.
This is dumbest argument I've ever read.
Actually in the time I was actively playing MTG, I was (most of the time) using proxy because of the prices of cards. OFC you cannot enter any tournament of the sort but MTG was at that time, a way to engage with people and make friends... so I made a lot of friends that I can talk today (10 or more years later).
Same with yugioh cards that there a lot of fakes selling for low price so people can enjoy a game of cards with out selling an eye.
I sympathize very much with this approach, however, I guess most of the players don't care whether the artwork printed on the card was created by a human being or a machine. Unfortunately there is little reason for the company not to go full AI as we speak.
hehe Proxies
Thank you Tyler for creating and sharing this video, helping to inform and educate artists regarding the details and business practices of Wizards of the Coast. I hope it will lead to positive change for the artists in the near future.
Donato
@@DonatoArts no problem just want to use the platform to educate as many as I can reach. Even though it likely means I won’t work for them either now.
practices of Hasbro*
I just sent in my first sketches for them and already I'm experiencing issues I've never seen before as a freelancer. And yeah, this is by far my lowest paying job. And why don't I quit out of principle? Because they know that I, like so many, discovered fantasy art through MtG as a kid, and I cried like a kid when I finally got to the point in my career where I get to call some of the best artists in the world my colleagues. And they are counting on that. They know that I will put my soul into art that I've been dreaming about getting to paint since I was a teenager, and that I'll be willing to do it at any rate. Well, only for a while...
Btw, we can get them to raise those prices with one discord group gathering, and one email, signed by all, threatening collective resignation. But someone else has to lead that movement, I'm literally a nobody, nobody would listen.
This is so sad :/ I really hoped working with Wizards is much better 🥲
Very understandable, relatable even. Not there yet myself but definitely can see it going similarly.
Seen people also increasingly talk about encouraging people to do just few MTG jobs and then just ride the recognition from that and produce more personal work for sale.
@@sjZhyren It just might not even be my choice. Such low rates are better replaced with an even lower rate for private commissions that come with no stress, no payment delays, no NDAs... I have to treat this dream job as something secondary, if I have the time for it.
@@sjZhyren yeah that’s the ideal scenario. Get your name on the brand, doesn’t mean you need to work for them unless you love it. And many do and that’s okay
I get it. BUT… It could also be a a way to realize, that the company you admired turns out to be the bad guy. Therefore maybe we should stop feeding our own downfall. I‘m super sad about it, but as long as people don‘t stop, they have everything to keep us small.
If Wizards does not want the secondhand art market, then they buy the original at secondhand prices.
I followed that discussion and was wondering what the actual numbers would look like. So I did some math with openly available numbers and extrapolated them very conservatively. Turns out Illustrators in total are getting paid between 0.2% - maybe 1% of the revenue of any given set. That's kinda insane considering how the art is the games gateway and, for a lot of people, its USP.
@@SimonPapeArt wow that is crazy thanks for sharing those metrics.
That seems to be the business model involving artists. I am publishing a webtoon on Naver Canvas and the conditions to even begin earning revenue are...difficult. Even artists with 100k views earn basically nothing from it. However, the idea here is that Canvas gives you exposure to an audience that potentially will support you on Patreon or by donations. I just think it's nuts that you have to do your own marketing, despite alread delivering high quality comics on a tight schedule.
But at least the artists keep their rights and can monetize in whatever way they want. To tell the artists: no you can't sell your originals second hand that is just bullying and indecency. I think hardly anyone realizes how much work this all is.
@@TylerEdlin84 I mean I could be wrong, since nobody besides WotC knows the actual numbers, but that's why I was using numbers very generously. But I'm fairly sure it's in that range.
Can you share your references for the maths ? I'd like to include this in a paper im working on.
@@kenzorman
Sure!
So what I looked at was the 2023 annual revenue of MtG, which was about $1.1B. MtG released 11 sets that year, so I divided that number up and ended up at an average of $100M per set. I then divided that number by half to account for overhead and production costs, ending up at $50M. Now, illustrator's rates vary a bit depending on the card and set, starting at a base rate of $1025 per standard card up to $3000 for Universes Beyond cards. The latter is due to contractual limitations not allowing artists to create physical illustrations or sell originals/art prints of those IPs. So I averaged the rate to $2000 per card. The average set size is about 260 cards. Not every card gets a new artwork, but they have a lot of special edition versions these days, so I kept the average number of 260 commissions per wave for simplicity sake.
260*$2000= $520.000, which would be about 1.04% of the $50M per set revenue. Obviously that number would be way smaller if you disregard overhead and production cost and only look at the total revenue of any given set or lower the base rate to $1025 instead of $2000. Hence the proposed variance of 0.2% - 1%.
The real numbers will definitely vary, since I don't know the actual numbers going into every set, but I'm fairly certain it will be in that ballpark.
Hope that helps!
Oh man, its so confusing what direction even to go with art nowadays.
I feel directionless :(
@@Starrider. you need to create it for yourself first and foremost. Yours love and enjoy it.
@ sounds easy! Struggling to fish out my inner art child again lately :/
Do your own thing. 😐
@@rockon8174 thanks, now this advice fixed it!
Lots of people say to draw for yourself. And sometimes I do. But I often draw for my friends and family, and I'll be honest that's so much more gratifying. I draw little comics of our DnD campaign's hijinks and I feel so much joy and pride when the other players laugh at them.
The best art is art that makes people feel something in my opinion. And when those people are people you care about, that's something extra special.
companies slowly implementing these things to soften the blow once we are all replaced by machines and there are no original ideas anymore , just nostalgia bait and live action adaptations of animated shows.
this is so sad, recently wizards oppened portfolio submission for MTG and DnD, there they stated very clearly that portfolio with AI generated work would be desconsidered immediately, when I read that I thought it was great, but apparently this might be just a temporary statement
they've also posted adds looking for "AI engineers" so its just a PR move while they bide their time to replace artists.
After spending my entire career relying on my art skills to make a living, it’s frightening to think we are so undervalued and that these artists are having their own art used for training models on A.I. as well is just beyond the pale.
Madness, if they were illustrating for book covers, they’d be getting royalties, or under an illustration agency, the terms and duration of use would be outlined, with a significantly appropriate fee to reflect widespread usage. We need more guilds
Wizards is such a scummy company.
Hasbro*
@@radattk3145 Hasbro Top Holders :
The Vanguard Group, Inc. & BlackRock Institutional Trust Company
@@radattk3145 crap , i buy transformers.
Tyler, thanks for all the videos. I think it's important for artists to realize when they are being exploited and when a company simply can't afford more than they offer. It seems building our own brand is the best way. Then they have to come to us again ^^
This is a problem I've been dealing with for years, not from WOTC per se, but from companies not wanting to compensate me, trying to manipulate me into giving them free labor and a host of other ridiculous stunts. Navigating this business, is often not unlike a minefield, and it has been significantly harder to make a living doing illustration.
Clients often also believe that changes are unlimited, no matter what you put in the quote. They are far too accustomed to digital artists. And often the changes seem arbitrary.
These companies have no respect for the work, even though they float out a lot of lip-service to the contrary. Unfortunately, WOTC will keep getting young artists because of “honor” of the company using your work.
Best of luck to you. I hope you always find a way to be successful.
Sounds like they want to erupt a clash with artists to eventually start introducing an adobe AI “art” magic box
To me it's often more then 40 hours work. It's not just painting time on itself. But also communication, research, studying of the subject matter, finding props, photo shooting...ect, all the preparation things that come in to create work of the best quality. Clothing and props and models are also things you have to pay for, they are not free. Just wanted to point out that at least in my case, it often goes beyond 40 hours and there are also additional costs involved, but I'm sure it applies to many other illustrators as well.
@@NiaKovart yeah I agree and wish I stressed some of your points more. 40hrs was overly generous.
Thanks, Tyler! Not just for this video, but also for all your previous videos! I love them and in all of them you either provide motivation, share awesome skills/techniques/or industry news. Keep it up!
@@PatrickZigart I will certainly try
I can no longer ethically support WotC. I haven't bought from them for over 2 years now. It just keeps getting worse and worse.
Personally, I think the artists should quit working for Wizards of the Coast and either work for another company or go freelance. They deserve better than continuing to be used and abused by a corporation.
The issue is that Magic can get away with this because there are thousands of talented artists starving and willing to take pay cuts to work for them and suffer with a smile. They can afford to get rid of the god fathers of illustrations and let in new young artists. Consumers unfortunately do not care, it’s only the artists that are sadly affected, so many issues across our industry.
You also know Donato probably was offered an immense paycheck that he turned down
@@ManOfTrades yeah totally it’s not like they will ever have a shortage of artists that want to do a card and even do it for less than the 1250
Thanks Tyler, really well put together, thoughtful take on the issue. Great listen, you echo my internal monologue a lot here, especially about the transactional nature of the work, that is a trap, or misconception for many entering the industry, and their expectations. This was or is the same in the film/tv design world also.
Oh Tyler, if you weren't on the Wizards Naughty List already, now you certainly are.
@@MortiePL oh they ain’t hiring me now lol
Can we also mention the increasingly strange feedbacks and briefs? Especially working on characters.
I’ve seen briefs where 90% of the informations were about lists of ethnicities to include in a fantasy race along with sexual identities (as if these were visual characteristics), on creatures like orcs, goblins and dragonborns of all things. It sounds crazy but it’s absolutely true.
I would get multiple round of feedbacks because a female character didn’t look “in charge enough” or a male one was to masculine or serious and needed to look more like a happy sexy teenager, even tho the initial brief said the opposite.
It’s has just become a nightmare working with them, artists should stop idolizing this company, they are not as they were in the 2010’s and earlier, stop thinking they are the same company. Especially if you like fantasy, you don’t like Wotc.
@@heroiam4067 wow I had no idea “. I can’t guarantee anything but feel free to email with any more details maybe it can be featured in a future follow up
Of course Hasbro is owned by The Vanguard Group & BlackRock who apply the same policies in every fields, social engineering.
S* that sound really WOKE...
@@carlosemiralonso7997 We love scapegoating
Thank you so much Tyler. Your advice is always inspiring.
Literally the job I was training for, and business plan I stared before Covid. What they are doing is insane.
I believe they're just paving the way for AI. They want to print as many cards as possible while paying artists as low as possible.
This is sobering. I actually believed working on Magic the Gathering and for WotC would be far better what you described. I'm an artist and I imagined it would be a dream-job. It's so sad.
Yea screw these big companies that disrespect the artist with these contracts, let them drown in soul less AI. See how long they last. Every artist should refrain from ever working with wizards of the coast.
Time to boycott another big company.
I really hate how this world is evolving..
Disgusting
Why would someone choose to be in an abusive relationship? Let it go.
$1000/card for the past 30 years! Artist rates almost never go up. SMH
Peter Mohrbacher also already pointing it out years before
@@karldarwin1253 yeah I made a brief mention of that at the end here. I always liked Pete.
What I hate more than companies treating artists like shit, is artists accepting other artists being treated like shit and reacting only when it’s their turn. Donato has been a top tier name for more than two decades now. He was very happy to take Wizards’ money when they were giving him great rates and contracts while giving everyone else shit. He was extremely happy to charge people $500 for his dvds of him painting something. He was elated to settle the first time he sued Wizards for using his work unauthorized. Now that they’ve done it again he suddenly gives a shit? Now he’s the artist’s “hero” for writing a stupid post? Now he’s “fighting the good fight” that he has nothing to lose and is taking this company to court with a guaranteed payday? People like Donato are the bootlickers of companies like WotC so long as the company plays favorites with them. Donato and guys like him aren’t trustworthy, they’re thinking always about number one, which in this case just seems to align with the rest of us, but for twenty years he was a yesman. And if Wizards offers enough in a new settlement, his ass is gonna take it, post his panegyrics online and the shut up. He’s not gonna teach other artists to seek better work, he’s not gonna organize artists to get better pay, contracts and working conditions. His status as a top tier artist will amount to nothing but some faux online publicity for a day to get him some cashola. Wizards with continue to be who they are and artists will continue to take the dick as they have because they can’t organize and get their heads out of their asses lest they don’t paint for something they are fans of. Idiots all. F them and F Donato.
@@Hadoken. wow your coming out heated. I had one of dvds I think it was 60$ like 15 years ago. But he really did something to piss you off huh?
It's funny, I've been working with Wizards for the last two years on D&D and thought the pay was great! Or at least, much better than what I usually get on client work. Granted, I live in a third world country and don't paint traditionally, so many of these problems may not apply, but I guess that goes to show you lowballing artists are the norm.
First world artists are finding out they don't have a good bargaining position in a globalized market .
Basically be like Dave Rapoza...independent artist crafting your own IPs.
good thing that larian stop working with Wizards of the Coast's. it is sad that larian will not working bdg3. however if it will be toxic relation ship with Wizards of the Coast's
"Forced" is doing a lot of heavy lifting for you here.
exploitation is systemic. the decreasing value of labor, financialization, and the weakening empire have brought this exploitation further inwards. corporations are not democratic and the ceo's one and only responsibility is to maximize profits for the next quarter.
Oh man, that really sucks... MTG is one of my personal life goals to get to at some point... I wouldn't say my dream has been crushed now, but damn...
Let's remember that MTG was the most famous, until YugiOH arrived, then Chaotic, then Hearthstone and then Legends of Runeterra.
And there will be many more card games in the future, so there is hope as long as you open your mind to more possibilities.
@lordnerdracula thats totally true, great reminder! I guess the bigger problem is the AI thematic then... But I have faith in humanity regarding that!
There's an easy fix for this: Establish an official artist licensing program. (Most countys already have a Department of Art)
Force artist to comply with the Ethics established within the guildlines and advise against CONTRACTS with Companies that are Blacklisted due to breach of ethics.
Of course, this is going to need to take place accross multiple stages and universities, goverments, various state legal departments... so on.
The oversight needed for artest protection is important for society. We all take art from granted, but we all need it.
too many desperate artists to have solidarity.
artists have failed every single time when bargaining collectively, its an individualistic field with everyone out-competing each other , when first world artists do it then other artists around the globe see an oportunity to under-cut them and take those positions
@@j.2512 real , and I'm speaking from a guy whose living in a third world country , 200USD might be cheap change there and I've witnessed some of my American friends scoff off the offer of clients with that kind of budget , but 200USD is enough to feed me and my cat and pay my bills for a month. art is competitive .
great video thanks ! btw is it ok to approach AD for wizards gig or they discover you ? i know this question might be stupid 😆
@@veneficarius I’m sure people always reach out directly. Keep in mind if the work isn’t up to par or even close it may just agitate them. The company does have a portfolio drop place somewhere on the site. Most folks I know new someone on the inside and got a referral.
@@TylerEdlin84 thanks a lot!
If people collectively stood up for themselves....As in understanding the value of your art work, like, how are they using the work, on the cards, on advertising, on point of purchase, other marketing materials.... licensing is a thing. There is a cost per item on the aforementioned. And you should be able to license for 1 year, 2 years and then charge a recurring fee for use thereafter reissuing of license. This is how illustration everywhere else is produced, and sold, especially in the design industry. In fact the AIGA go into great detail and instruction, including resources for this including documents that can help (disclaimer: really you should seek your own legal advice for all contracts). The illustrator guide to Law and Business Practice by the AOI (UK) is also an informative read. It's in a companies interest to pay one off low fees for work as they have an illustration heavy product, which is their business challenge (seemingly they have solved btw)... Collectively everyone should just say no, but the market is operating as a giant prisoners dilemma.
It seems to me like Hasbro has been continually raising the revenue expectations for MTG over the last half-decade. I'd imagine squeezing labor like this is part of that push.
Very respectfully, first
impressive reflexes
Hello! welcome to Sorcerty Contested Realm!
Great... And i was looking forward to work for wizard in the future... Now them too /: Discouraching /:
Nice topic, I actually studying to came a MTG Artist
This sounds like comic book indistry pre image comics. A group of good fantasy artist and writers need to come together to give them some. Possibly crowd fund the project. Make it an environment where other artost would like to join the team or contribute through providing incentives they aren't offering like royalties. Open development forum for this kinda of project could possibly help fans/future consumers feel a deeper connection to the development of this kind of project. Just an idea I'm throwing out there.
hasbro was looking at what some of the art pieces get on the secondary market and then scratched their head saying "we have tens of thousands of unique cards with unique art, what if we just own all of it from now on and then we'll rake in 10k+ for each on the secondary market (we'll figure this part out later) and we'll be rich(er)"
I'm not talented enough to paint for WotC, but I do sell altered art cards for 200+ dollars and my wait-list is currently goes about two years out. WotC pays a pittance that would put you into poverty even if you did over a dozen paintings a year. It would take me more than a month per a painting, but I can do 5 alter cards a week. Even if I was good enough to paint for WotC it would not be financially feasible or morally reasonable (as a father) for me to work for pennies. And both those revenue streams pale in comparison to what I make as a steelworker babysitting robots in a factory. Art died a long time before AI came along, the parasitic shareholder class already killed it.
Never heard good things about Wizards of the Coast. I just got into Magic the Gathering, and I do like the game... But the company behind it has made very questionable decisions in the past. From a consumer point a view, right now a lot of MTG fans are not happy about WotC branching outside of the MTG IP. Like they plan on adding Marvel and Cartoon characters like Spongebob to the game. A lot of people get into the game because of the art and lore of the main universe and it can be quite immersion breaking to see other IPs within the game. WotC has also been known to get political too. People just want to play the game as a form of escapism. Sad to see artists are also getting the short end of the stick all in the name of WotC prioritizing profit at the expense of the quality of the game as well as the business relationships they've made over the years.
it's Hasbro.
Playing by the rules, we should pressure them and not wait it out. We are not consumer, we are the one being consumed.
I thought the whole deal was kinda that they pay you to paint, but you get to keep and resale what you painted... if that's no longer the case that's bullshit, they should be paying at least 10x the price if they don't get to keep it.
That one female Magic artist was also caught stealing Donato's art not too long ago...
Extra upsetting cause one of my favorite artists Justin Gerard has recently started doing Magic art -.-
My favorite Magic artist though Wayne Reynolds has been there a long time and I don't think he has ever done any Universes Beyond?
They are altering the deal. Pray they do not alter it further.
these company are so entitled
WoTC are pulling a Dana White and cutting their artists sponsors off (selling the proofs/prints and supplementing their base rate). If your into MMA you'll know how well that's gone for their contracted fighters. They also dont have a union and are amazed by the bright lights of the company and their peers, so no one rallies with each other and they fight for the scraps, literally. Would be best to get artists to unite against these predatory business practices, or they wont have any reason to change.
Most likely they just want them to quit to jump straight into AI
It’s crazy to see one of the inspirations I had to start drawing as a kid in the 90s fall so low against artists. Artists should stop working for wizards. Let them use the ai I wonder how long that will last.
Not to mention most artists all over the internet are mostly shoehorned into doing fan art so it’s not surprising magic is doing it. No one cares about your original art. Sculpture geek, Steven richter, and most others that have a big following really only do fan art. I hate it and it’s very boring to me but that’s what most people want to see. It’s one of the main reasons I don’t try and start an art channel or a patreon with my sculpts.
Wizards will be more than thrilled. Outside of artists communities no one cares about AI, consumers just want the product don't care how its made
can you please talk about how to balance my art life and my non art life? i currently am studying graphic design which may sound good but living in a terrible country makes this major terrible too. and i'm a new artist trying to reach the industry standards of digital painting. i don't have a teacher or a mentor (can't find a worthy one here + can't afford it). i'm asking you this out of despair because even tho i'm such a person that has done many various things and am pretty serious in persuing something, i still am really really struggling to make this balance. i'm always burning out even tho i try so hard not to. all these responsibilities fill up my mind. thank you if you read this message, you're always a savior to me, no matter what
@@__se7entin__ did you catch last weeks video it’s exactly what it was about
@@TylerEdlin84 yes i did and it was actually pretty useful, thank you for that. but what i'm struggling with is more about the "switch" between my art life and non artistic life. i have to be focused in arts to have quality time instead of mindless doodling. and juggling makes it hard to concentrate you know. if you find this topic worthy enough and had the time, i would be so glad to see you talk about it. have a nice day/night
Meanwhile WotC hit over a billion in revenue per year in the very recent past with a profit margin in the 35-40%.
i think konami yu gi oh was the first to do this they dont even tell you who did the art work
I did my part: i stopped buying ALLLLLLL their crap
@2:00 in 1996 did you say $8000 dollars or A-Thousand dollars per card?
@@Zr0din said A-thousand. Sorry I didn’t sound clearer
no actual interview from him?
The only way to not get exploited by companies is to be your own boss. I'm not where I want to be as an artist or as an entrepreneur, but I know that my time and energy are being spent to build something that nobody can take from me. I just can't imagine how working for a company is a better long term choice than building your own. If you're already pursuing commercial art anyway, the (additional) risk seems minimal at most. If you're not securing a bag, I don't understand the rationale behind giving these clowns any of your time. ESPECIALLY if you're elite enough to get hired in the first place.
Show me an artist and I’ll show you someone who can’t make art exploiting them
I said it on this channel before but the only thing that will stop it is if everyone stopped purchasing the product. But that will never happen.
@@derickdoveglass yeah and I agree both aspects there.
Wizards of the Coast are not interested in their _games_ . Wizards of the Coast have shifted over to a model where they are only interested in the cross-marketability of their brand. D&D Beyond is only tangentially associated with their actual game. It mainly exists as a tightly controlled advertising marketplace to 19 million captive consumers. The games mean nothing to them anymore, it's all about the brand deals, and 'lifestyle branding'.
It's sad, but artists, writers, gamers, all of them are completely worthless to WoTC. All three of those categories think too much, all three critique too much. But the person who buys everything Marvel and doesn't care about the games and drama? That's the person they want. They're the type that just buy the Spiderman Magic Cards without a thought of how that dilutes the actual lore of the MTG universe.
There are other places for artists and writers to go, though. It just takes breaking free of the belief that you have to work for the behemoth in the room. It might mean taking a downgrade in pay if it's for a smaller company. I'd personally go with Paizo, with DC20, with Kobold Press, any of the other game companies out there. Yes, it'll be flooded, but from the last that I heard, these other companies tend to treat creatives far better than WoTC has in years.
Sort of confusing. You said in the 90s they paid artists 8k but then they upped the price in 2000s to 1000+?
@@verisimlitudesque I said A thousand which could sound like eight thousand
@TylerEdlin84 ahhh my bad. Also thank you for doing this video. Very informative.
Ohhh, I thought it was “eight thousand” also. I was so confused. 😂
I did a card for magic and had a great experience. I would be disappointed if they used AI though.
If wizards wants low effort slop then that is what they will get. Sadly most of their players are stockholm syndrome'd and refuse to play anything else.
Hey everyone, let's talk about something serious: the exploitation of freelance artists by massive companies like Wizards of the Coast. They’re limiting our rights, paying low wages, and blocking secondary markets that have been essential for artists to make a living.
Look at what happened to top-tier artists like Donato Giancola-he’s calling out Wizards for these unfair practices, and he's not alone. It's time we take action together and hold these companies accountable. If you're an artist facing these issues, let's gather, stand united, and file a class action lawsuit to demand fair treatment.
Let me know your thoughts below; we deserve better!
correct me if I am wrong but way I took it regarding Magic: for instance your art is Star Wars based but work you do for the Gathering is LotR based. so if you work for them you can't sell commissioned traditional painting of Star Wars because of their contracts? that is total BS
Yes, you're wrong. First of all, you're technically not legally allowed to sell fan art, since you're profiting from intellectual property owned by someone else (either a person or a company), this has always been the case, even though companies usually don't lose time going after fan artists who sell a few prints or paintings, it's never been legal, if one wants to be very nitpicky even simply _sharing_ fanart for free online is breaking the law.
Second, the issue the video is about is that if you're a Magic artist and are working on, say, a Star Wars themed card, you're not allowed to sell the original artwork anymore, something that's been allowed in the past (and I assume it is still the case for regular Magic cards), it doesn't affect what the artist does outside that specific commission.
Gotta be honest, I fail to see why anyone gives their money to WotC anyway. It's clear that companies like this hate artists, I'd love to see what'd happen if every artist refused to work with them - we'd see a change overnight.
replaced with AI and consoomers will keep buying it, Hollywood is already proof of this
Universes beyond continues to be a common thread across everything I don’t like about where magic is going. I grew up loving the game for its artwork, but as time goes on I am less and less interested in supporting the brand.
@@sethhat9620 everything gets the multiverse treatment now. It’s so overplayed
Money The Gathering.
Thankyou for calling out Wotc
ua-cam.com/video/9B6nJ3pASDs/v-deo.html
I believe you meant 800? Correct me if Im wrong
AI art will take over MTG (and D&D). New artwork is massive overhead that the company can largely eliminate by using AI. They WILL do it. Make no mistake.
If first world artists don't want 1200$ per card, some brazilian will do it for 100$ or they'll use AI and do it for free.
@@j.2512 yeah I think the price should be 1500-2000 per card
The trouble is, if a lot of people heard they were lowballing that badly or using AI, they’d stopped buying the new cards. I don’t play MtG anymore but when I did, the art was a huge part of it. Serra Angel was one of my favorite cards simply because I loved the art on it (and the artist’s name also happened to relate to me in a specific way). I know some people wouldn’t care, but some of us most definitely would.
I’m not super anti-AI or anything, but I still want artists to be acknowledged and fairly compensated.
@@tarabooartarmy3654 most consumers really don't care how the product is made, outside of artists themselves and a very small niche of art fans no one even cares who drew what or how, they just want the branded product
@ it depends on the product. In some niches, almost no consumers would care. In some, a great many would care. You have a certain percentage of people who specifically buy handmade from Etsy, for example, because they want to support artisans and artists. But yes, most people don’t care, especially in regular stores.
All these arguments you make only apply to Universes Beyond. There are many legal issues involved when working with major companies and the likeness of their characters. You even admit this at the end of your video. Because Wizards doesn’t apply this to their original content and IP art pieces, this video is moot. Of course, when you work for Wizards creating art for an IP that Wizards doesn’t own, there will be red tape. This is honestly not even worth talking about. It’s just business and is nothing unique to WoTC. We know “Wizards bad”, but this is clickbait and a non issue.
@@v464x okay so you are fine with the fact that wizards only pays 1250 and pretty much hasn’t moved on this at all? That they can pay for one commission, then have rights full reproduction and royalties to monetize indefinitely without ever giving back a residual to the creator? Ouch
Also it’s not “exploitation” if it’s explicitly laid out in a contract lmao it’s just unfortunate for the artist
@ then don’t sign the contract lol what they’re doing is not a mystery
Screw working for companies. Or studios. Lets collab together and make our own stuff our own way. Pretty easy to distribute. We have skype (sure theres others but thats the name i know), free programs like blender, gimp,audacity,shotcut,unity,unreal,papayago, places that will make a web site for you rather cheaply. World wide knowledge at your fingertips. Why are you still giving them control? I really thought when yt first came out, once everyone knew about it and figured out how to work it, we'ld see tons on people making movies and shows and documentaries, etc. Thought it would be a revolution of artists. And put power bcak into their hands instead of the corporations. We dont need corporations. We can do alot of ourselves now. Youve gotten so used to the internet, you forgot how amazing and helpful it can actually be. We can transform this crap real easy. Come on! Lets go!