10:56 The one-by-one talent “learning your class” phenomenon has been a thing for all of DF, not just this 10.2.7 event. I learned rogue, warlock, priest, and mage this way during the downtime b/w raid tiers. It’s really a testament to how, despite any issues from an end game perspective, the talent trees are very well implemented for the leveling experience.
@@ironsideeve2955You completely missed the point. The idea is that even though it’s a basic spell, it’s slowly introducing these things to new players to the class instead of just overloading them with a million things at once.
@@ironsideeve2955 You didn't even give any reasoning for it, lmao. We literally already had what you suggested and it was terrible for anyone that was new to the class/returning. Literally what even is the downside to having to pick it as a talent compared to having it in your spellbook? I just don't see why this matters. They are balanced around you taking that point so "it takes away a point" shouldn't be an issue.
A game is only as good as its reward structure. (Whether it be tangible rewards or achievements/accomplishments). I played a ton of the panda PTR stuff and had a great time, and am super excited to get in and collect a ton of stuff and do a bunch of stuff I haven’t done before. But at the end of the day I’d be perfectly happy with just S4 also if they put this much effort in rewards like they did into panda remix. WoW creates great gameplay loops, but incentivizes then extremely poorly. Hopefully remix is a sign that we start to see changes in that pattern!
I want at some point a season 4, where its like a "Best Hits" where its like 8-9 bosses of like the best bosses from all xpacs brought up to current mechanics/scaling. It could just be called a world trial, rather than a "raid". No trash, just go in, kill bosses.
I believe the m+/raid gearing system can definitely be solved by the bullion system or some other kind of determinative loot. Mythic plus players can get some of the raid loot after some time without needing it to be a drop and raiders could get m+ loot without feeling forced into doing an excessive amount of it. Sure they would still probably have to do a certain amount of the other type of content, but it would be better than it is without any determinative loot acquisition.
So I've been on both ends, I used to raid in a guild from mop through legion that was always us 5th-ish (at the time put us something like world top 30ish) and then legion / bfa burned me (and my entire guild) out. Came back for SL and I've mostly pvp'd since and have gotten to just shy of 2.5cr in 3s each season of DF so far, think my highest was rank 27 for my spec in shuffle. The gearing in SL S1 was what actually got me into pvp initially. I was doing a F&F heroic raid in nathria, these were people from the old guild so we ran out of heroic to do as fast as you'd expect. At that point the only way to continue progressing my toon was to either get back into mythic raiding, and I just didn't want the commitment / finding a new guild... or to pvp since it gave mythic ilvl gear for hitting duelist. Ended up really enjoying arena and have been more focused on that. What I can tell you from the pvp community on the stuff ya'll were talking about: ~ Pvp gearing has been really good this xpac, there's a pvp ilvl on gear (split between boe greens, honor, and conq gear having different ilvls) and it works like wod so that's great. ~ The big problem is there's this inverse thing that happens over the season. The start of the season is the most deflated mmr is / the hardest it is to push rating and get rewards so people just don't bother trying and wait until months into the season when blizzard artificially inflates mmr. At the same time players who continue playing are getting full geared, and so they have a massive power advantage which makes it really difficult for players to grind out the new gear.. so it keeps a lot of people from wanting to play or get into it. So you have this ass backwards situation where the best time to push is as late as possible into the season... but that's also the hardest time for people to get into it because they're super behind on gear. If they're someone who's very good at pvp they can reasonably grind it out under geared by out skilling people, but for your average player its not fun getting stomped for a week before you can play the game... and that's ignoring that the first 5 months of the season feel like a waste to play in. The biggest issue with addons is about accessibility more than anything. Players feel that the barrier to entry for pvp is so incredibly high and one of the major parts of that is that you feel like you're playing completely blind with the base UI because you can't see some of the most basic things like diminishing returns at all. There's also so many important cds etc that are effectively invisible without addons, like when a rogue presses shadowblades or shadow dance while on the opposite end there are cds that scream at you like combustion or wings. Addons give you a huge advantage in just visibility, yet alone telling you how to play. The thing that's especially bad for pvp is most of these addons aren't set up in a "plug and play" sort of way so a savvy new player will grab all these addons they hear a top player is using and then their screen is a mess and they're handicapping themselves because they're being bombarded with useless information and they don't even know what most of these abilities are or what they do. There's also the aspect that some old school players dislike how the games evolving and prefer how the game feels when you're playing blind and just having to make assumptions on when a cd or a dr is coming up or if this person has kick. Imo the biggest problem pvp has is really just systems, reward structure, and actually just playing the game. The fomo limiting how many rewards are available, the mmr deflation every season making it so its only worth playing for the last month of the season unless you want to sweat your ass off, the que times for shuffle and how impossible it is to find people via lfg. Players need an avenue to being rewarded for their time, and more things to grind because as soon as they hit rival and get their transmog set most players quit because they feel like duelist yet alone glad is unreachable for them.
After leading a guild from Classic to WoTLK and into SoD.. most of the average player base of Classic cannot do complex raids and it is not their focus. I recruited zero players in classic, not 1 recruitment post. In TBC we had to replace about 5-6 players that could not do T5 or Sunwell. In WoTLK we went thought 60+ players. It was clear the shift in difficulty in Ulduar and hICC filtered out a massive portion of the player base. Looking back I would guess that maybe 10 of the original Classic 40 are capable of Heroic Lich King mechanics, which are not hard compared to Cata. Max should do an undercover PuG in SoD and see how it goes. I think it would be very eye opening.
PvPer listening in. You're correct: the gear system should be extremely simple and just "get out of the way" so I can focus on the gameplay and my own improvement.
As one of the two pvp fans you have (really I do all 3 modes), a great trinket that draws in pve'rs is fantastic for participation. Like you said, the remaining pvp community is largely very very good due to being not very large so you have to be sweaty all the time. The problem is when pve trinkets come into a competitive scene and one shot. Also, tier sets being designed for pve mean that some classes just get screwed for power/fun in pvp so a separate pvp tier designed specifically for that mode would be good. As a side cook, I love Diablo having multiple tier sets you can choose from. I'd like them to keep all the tier sets in for the expansion and just let the builds go wild.
My cook on trinkets: Just make all trinkets as purchasable items with a time limited currency (e.g. Dinar, Bullion) and even take them out of the M+ loot pool and vault completely. Raid only players wouldn't feel forced to farm the same dungeon over and over again for a specific trinket, M+ only players have the option to just buy a raid trinket they might want a few weeks into the season. IMO it either should be much easier to get items which can have up to a 10% effect on your overall throughput or they should be nerfed to be never worth more than a couple of %, but that option wouldn't be nearly as fun. This coming from one of those people who gets their +20s and AOTC every season but never pushes above that - I end up most seasons having BiS gear in all but 2-4 slots and those last slots are ALWAYS trinkets. Also as an unrelated cook I think that trinkets should be separated out to On-Use being mutually Unique-Equipped, because fuck double on-use, I don't have enough spare buttons for that shit.
Another great episode boys, good work. I personally know I won't have the time to play MoP classic, so I am looking at this Pandamonium thing as my version of experiencing my FAVOURITE expansion again and giving it a proper farewell. Huge shout out to Blizz in 2024 who are on absolute fire and I really hope they keep these crazy things coming our way in the future. 💜
As a PVP enjoyer, 1800 on multiple characters, I don’t want pvp to be mandatory for pve. That’s how you get hatred for pvp. What I want is a solid pruning of class abilities and modifiers so that pvp is easier to get into for primarily pve focus players and makes it so they aren’t just dying out of nowhere. Another thing is I don’t want to have to track 5 different offensive and defensive and diminishing returns per player per team. I also recently started to pvp without pvp specific add ons only using visual indicators for spells now and it is 1000% more enjoyable. Every class in cooldown needs a distinct audio and visual so I don’t have to have years of game knowledge or a weak aura telling me to click a button.
Absolutely agree with you. The fundamental problem of WoW PvP is that the classes and game are designed for PvE. It's the inverse of GW2 which was built from the ground up for PvP and then has PvE on top. Think about 3 fundamental things the WoW PvP designers have to work around just to make PvP work. 1. Range Hit Scan Abilities. Ranged abilities hit instantly, which means in an open arena range wrecks your life. So they had to make pillars and make sure there was environment in the way. 2. Tanks. Tanks exists in the game, and they are either too tanky and do too much damage, or they have to be nerfed to never be viable. 3. Healers. Healing in WoW works for PvE, the frame targeting and abilities to heal people at any range works there. In PvP it can lead to infinite games. So they had to design dampening and continuously tweak it. If it's ever off the arena match lasts forever.
Splitting gear even further is a poor idea. Dratnos hit it perfectly. Something else to consider: I play all 3 specs of monk. Each one wants something different in their gearing. I would have to gather 6 sets of gear instead of 3 to play them a good efficiency in both content forms. There's already not enough space for things. This just adds complexity to gearing for no valuable reason. Also the Venruki ep is a banger. 10/10 would recommend.
I'm a PVP andy turned CE Raider. PVP gearing is perfect as it is atm. Love venruki so much, your ep with him was awesome. Can give plenty of mixed takes as I've played all facets of wow and enjoy them all (except pet battles lol)
Really solid discussions boys, nice episode! Regarding SoD as a big SoD player; most people playing just want a game mode where we can chill with the boys and just pump. We only wanna use 2 brain cells and have fun. We progressed at 60 in 2019 classic to an extent, cleared pre nerf tbc content, had ulduar hard modes and heroic ICC. Progression content is fun and nice, and I personally enjoy it as well as some retail. But having just 1 mode that’s super chill is very nice. We can have challenging content in literally every other version of Warcraft. Maybe the sunken temple nerfs were a bit overkill, although I wasn’t in there week 1. Went in week 2 with a mostly guild group and 1 shot everything except last 2 bosses. They took a couple pills each and it was fine.
Ive always treated gear as a means to an end for getting into harder content, most of the people ive raided mythic with were the same, we were there for the challenge gearing up faster was a nice bonus and things like the 421 Icon of the Incarnates were super cool but not why we were all there. Id like to see gear cap out at the hero track level. Heroic drops start at 473ilvl while Mythic starts at 480ilvl and both cap out at 483 (The last 3 Bosses can drop gear at 4/6 for H and 6/6M) Mythic+ plus can be scaled according where the vault slots you get are Hero track 6/6 if you completed a 10 for the week. End of dungeon rewards for a 10 can drop you 1/6 Hero Track at 467. (keeping in mind the new key scaling moving forward a 10 should feel like a 20 currently) This way your gear progression is based around getting crests/badges and upgrading the gear overtime for the first few weeks/months of the expansion hunting for pieces with BiS stats If you want to min/max. Mythic+ oriented players now just have to pug 1 or 2 bosses a week on heroic for those elusive trinkets which isnt perfect but its better then never being able to get the mythic version of the trinket. You unlock "The Mythic super shiny particle dense" transmog appearance with CE/Keystone legend 3k or something) give the mythic raiders some extra shinny bits and bobs so we can feel good about killing things and people would still do it. Most of my guild could care less about 98% of raid drops with exception of the same 4 items that EVERYONE wanted. The vault in turn grants you one Dinar/Bullion a week which allows you to purchase gear down the road if youve been unlucky.
1:08:41 The feeling of watching your entire raid in nyalotha press font of power is awesome, and I personally think it would be cool if more trinkets like that existed
I would actually really enjoy if great vault could scale from all activities but you could put all points in your favorite category like all options show raid items
Thank dorki for the pvp shout out. I play all 3 game modes. But my time allocation is pvp > m+ > raid. In pvp i got 2.1k, in m+ i got all portals, and raid i only cleared on normal in first few weeks of season. I wish there were more incentives to be proficient in all game modes. Like the mark of mastery for tier piece should be earnable up to 3 times
Max, thanks for bringing up PvP add-ons! OmniCD is the reason I quit, because it turns the pvp scene into the same "predict the mechanic and prereact" we have grown to hate in M+ and S3.
Havoc ~usually~ feels good in 10-30, but you spend a good chunk of that in the scenario specifically designed for DH. I’m also curious about how this would feel!
Max keeps mentioning "raid tuning" but tbh I think outside a few tinker outliers, the raids are being exploded in the way its intended with the OP level of strength our characters are supposed to have.
Dorki, you should try arcane, it's so fun. But I completely agree with the leveling takes! As a player new to WoW (S3 SL), the leveling process is so great for learning the specs and getting a core understanding of the rotation. The class just starts to make sense and then you are max level and actually know how to press buttons lol
I enjoyed grinding out pvp and playing with pvp friends that i may haven't played with in years during season 1 shadowlands. Was fun to push myself to get better in a different game mode UNTIL I lvled an alt to main swap... Doing the grind a 2nd time on a class with little pvp experience was hell on earth for the 2nd toon.
I got to level 50 in remix... it just keeps going faster and faster the longer you play. I had +80% xp on my cloak and my armor slots each had 3 extra abilities or procs.
I played up to level 20 with a DH and there’s some goofy stuff like you can take talents to improve Throw Glaive, Blur, and Disrupt (kick) a couple levels before you learn the actual abilities. It’s definitely built for an endgame experience but if you don’t know better then you can get screwed by a silly mistake. MoP Remix is fun af though
I wonder if they could do something where you can level up to max, prestige and get some sort of bonus for leveling up again, and have that multiply. Be it movement speed, %-drop rate increase etc, "Season of the Paragon" or something along those lines. Something along D3s paragon levels. (Dunno if the 10.2.7 cloak has a cap but like, more of the cloak stuff maybe) That said, all of this may be completely unwanted by the folks that do play classic which I unfortunately don't, but just an idea that crossed my mind.
I always use the allegory of trying to visualize a billion dollars, is the same as the skill difference of players in wow. You can tell people but until they actually play with someone it doesn't really process in the brain
I'm all for the infinite scaling power, and the tuning to be right about where it is tbh. As someone who progged all of mists, I don't have much interest in going over 10 pulls per boss, and in a pug group thats about where it is gonna be right now. So it will naturally be a bit of a stomp for a full guild. Keeping in mind that we have mythic to do yet
i think an easy solution to the OP trinket situation for those who only want to do M+ or raid is make one OP one for both that do the same shit and make them unique to each other so you can only equip one at a time or like with S4 give us dinars to buy them but make them be able to be earned through either raid or M+ per week by like killing 4 raid bosses and doing 4 keys or some shit
Max is so out of reality about the Mythic Plus environment it actually hurts. People who enjoy M+ is FORCED to also do raids, specially since most M+ enjoyers (1% or below) are tier list sicks and will do everything to get the BiS trinket/gear that wowhead or icyveins suggest
The disproportionate effort a M+er has to go through to get a mythic vault slot vs. a Mythic raider just doing 1 20 per week is a bit skewed imo. I think Mythic raid pugging should just be like heroic to help close this gap.
Dorki saying the participation in each mode would go down if separated I feel like is true. This is counter to Max saying that the majority of players like to do both. I don't think Max's argument can be evaluated until you see what players would choose if given the opportunity. Additionally, Max saying Blizzard would never separate gear partially untrue. They've already made tier accessible outside of raid, this trend is likely to continue as the m+ demographic grows.
I used to care more about splitting m plus and raiding. But with the upgrading system its definately changed my opinion. But as a herpic raider the best way to get gear for herpic was always to just do mythic plus. But now i cam pretty much ignore m plus unless i want to, which overall is a lot healthier syle of play for me who just wants to pretty much log on raid and then log off.
Ahhh o thought it was a quick little pandaria classic, with the OG monk. Not a fan that it’s all dragonflight. But sounds like a great way to level an alt.
After the changes coming with M+ starting at a higher difficulty I think M+ is mostly fine up to portal level. That being said the tournament realm for M+ should be spun off into a mode selectable on the main screen. That way if my biggest focus is just pushing I dont have to worry about farming gear and could just push.
What’s the likely hood of them taking the pandamonium leveling experience and making that the leveling for new expansions? With or without a raised level cap, your character starts at one and you (speedily) level to max. New and inexperienced players get the opportunity to play with better players as they level instead of being lopped in with a bunch of themselves and power leveling alts who they haven’t a chance to keep up with. With more and more going account wide, a copy+paste character mechanic where (at the very least) everyones first time through the expansion starts together could be very good for the community as a whole. Once at cap, you now have the option with alts to level this way or use time walking like the current system.
Hot take, I just enjoy playing the game. I’m pretty average across the board, I get AOTC, m+ 16-20s, and pvp to 1800. And I like building up my different gear sets and feeling like I’ve “completed” my m+ set, raid set. Etc. That said, pvp gearing is my favorite. It takes me one day of BGs to get honor gear and the way it scales allows me to compete to the level I want to early on to 1600-1800. Then conq and vaults truly are a cherry on top. PVE I just shift my mental to a longer grind and, surprise, it’s still enjoyable lol.
I think i good compromise for adding the old prestigious items back would be to either do what new mage tower did and just use timewalking scaling to each xpac (i think the mage tower difficulty tight now is fine, its doable in any gear but its easier if you farm out a set for it) or treat challenge modes like vicious mounts and do them every xpac (maybe in the final season of each xpac) and if you do more than the amount to get the set from whatever is current you could get a vicious saddle equivalent and buy them. I personally like time gated things and items being removed but i feel like either of these could be a good compromise and one that, personally, i would be 100% down for
For things like tcg mounts which never had a way in game of getting them they could just put them behind difficult content so they're still available and not just given for free on the trading post
As a pvper alone who does pve with friends, it does feel bad much more bad to be behind in gear in pvp and doesn't feel particularly good to be ahead either, but a cool trinket or weapon at the cost of losing some survivability is always fun. The bigger problem for me tho, is the abilities that are different between the two, not the gear. I'm p sure I have 10 more binds (without macros) than the avarage player, just so I can switch between both easily.
I'm a long time PvPer (I usually just get glad and quit ladder now) and recently gotten into M+ (Currently a lil higher than 3600ish), and I 100% agree with Max's take about the only people really left in the community are people that are equivalent to the players that are pushing keys. For gearing it's definitely viewed as much better to be separated because the general consensus for PvP is that everything should just be a fair and level playing field, and if someone whose been playing for 6 weeks of the season has a 20% gear advantage to someone who is in PvP greens is viewed as cringe beyond cringe. If PvE gear were integrated into PvP, like it has been a few times in the past, people just absolutely hate it due to the same reason listed above but another layer of cringe added for that gear that's needed for that 20% advantage to have to come from M+ or Raid.
I think the fact that questing was only viable for leveling from 10-60 is a good thing. 60-70 being slower, taking longer, forcing you into dungeons or raids to level is good. You don't actually need to be level 70 to experience most of the content, so the goal doesn't need to be level 70 on day one.
Im someone that feels like raiding is a chore, but it’s only because I don’t have a guild to raid with due to working nights. Having to find groups to farm the legendaries for my paladin and evoker has killed my motivation to play. So I get where people are coming from, but I don’t know how you would fix it, outside of making raid loot drop in M+, but then you’d have to put a limit on how much gear you can get in a week.
doing 20+ keys is not even close to the 1% (it's more like top 13%) even with all keys at 25+ you'd barely not be in the top 1% of m+ players. this season is way too easy and the squish is something that will hopefully restore some perspective on keylevels
Anyone else feel like this is a testing ground for replacing chromie time? The one flaw with chromie time I had was the fact that I choose wotlk and then once I get through borean and scholozar I’m close to the level I need and move on to DF. I wanted to see the lich king and fight through ulduar. This system in my opinion is a much much better way to do this leveling with raids and the dungeons is just great.
59:27 I don't want them to split gearing because I actually enjoy both (not pushing keys, I just like doing my weekly keys with the boys) and don't want to carry around 2 sets of gear but I feel like the only way to balance loot is to split them. Right now the game is heavily in favor of m+ over mythic raiding so much to the point that if you only do M+ (and maybe some heroic for a trinket) you are basically 98% of a mythic raider and that is insane. Like I understand people doing +25-30 keys is equivalent to some mythic bosses but "Billy" doing +18 keys should not be anywhere near as powerful as a mythic raider or at least it should take him twice as long to get to that level.
What do you think of this cook: trinkets only available from m+, tier tokens only available from raid (as they currently are). All things still available from great vault. I have put 0 thought in this but let me hear your opinion
M+ OP Trinket Raid OP Trinket They can both exist. Unique equipped is still a thing. People would pursue whatever is easiest to get until they get the one they want.
I think it's a shame they didnt release at least recolored MoP CM mode sets. I still have one for Hunter (don't play it anymore) but honestly they are still peak class fantasy together with Legion Artifact Weapons and it is just sad for people who didnt play or (like me) just are super into class fantasy and changed they main over the last 10 years. There are a million opinions about that online though but I personally think, man, just give the stuff to the people who care about it. I mean I remember getting the TCG drake with Twitch a few years ago and honestly I see nobody complaining about that but also I'd think there are like .0001% of player who are super glad they own that now.
I spent half my time on PVP, with the goal of getting to 2100 every season. Blizzard would need to do some work on the gameplay to make PVP approachable for PVErs, but getting them to come play PVP would be a plus for us. It would inject MMR inflation naturally into the system so we can avoid having super deflated MMR like in the current season, where you are facing R1 or multiglad players constantly at 2100. Also the remaining pvp community is pretty sweaty, so an injection of PVErs would mean we get to stomp some noobs early in the season which is a nice break from the super intense lobbies you get all day otherwise However stomping PVErs is also what makes them hate PVP, and Blizzard would need to make CC and 1 shot much less prevalent for that to work. Currently if you're not tracking enemy spells, enemy CC, your own DRs you are at a massive disadvantage, and you absolutely need addons to track that well. A reduction from DF to SL level of CC would be a good start.
Also as someone who got some of the CM sets and felt like I had to work pretty hard to complete those, they should bring them back lol. I want the ones I didn't get. At least bring back some recolors, and not those nerfed ones from legion, those suck!
To answer dratnos, leveling havoc in this feels weird sense our class tree was obviously not designed to be that low level. At multiple points I was forced to put talent points into my tree for an ability I’m not even high enough level yet
PvP needs to be introduced to more people. PvP should be viewed as an alternative gearing path. Shadowlands PvP had tonnes of people as the conquest gear scales up to current content. It wasn’t necessarily the best or easiest route, but it was an alternative which many people pursued. At the moment, PvP is purely cosmetic and the participation shows. Meaningful rewards will encourage participation.
As someone who plays exclusively PvE and mostly raids, I think the biggest mistake Blizzard ever made with WoW was giving up on Battlegrounds. RBGs are insanely fun and even more so when you consider how little effort has been put into them. Imagine if M+ was released in Legion and then had no changes made to it for the next 10 years. I know the current pvp scene is dominated by arena, but I think there is still a chance to salvage RBGs. At least we have Plunderstorm (for now) which scratches a similar itch.
About the prestige stuff, bring it all back. It doesn't matter. Not including Challenge Mode was a mistake. It's exactly like doing Legion Remix and not bringing back Mage Tower. The prestige is from doing the hard thing, I don't care when they did it. I got Mage Tower appearance on my main in the first Tower opening, it was brutally hard, tons of time spent progging it. Does it make it less special because someone else earned it late Legion with way more.gear and character power? No, it doesn't matter.
Yeah same with my CM sets and Garrosh mount/looms. Just not the trading post. Let people go back and farm the mount/looms with a low drop. And either give CM in remix or even fixed ilvl during mop timewalking weeks. Anything but the trading post, im all for.
PVP gearing feels pretty good imo, better than it has in a while, it feels good having deterministic choices. I know at the beginning of a season I can get a full set of greens and be pretty competitive. Even as the season goes on, if I don’t end up with full epics/enchants/gems, if I’m up against a player who does it’s still entirely possible to win. Unlike in the past, where some rogue who farmed out a BiS trinket in M+ is just going to delete me because I don’t engage in that content. PvP feels dead because there’s not much fresh about it. From the perspective of someone who has never been a “hardcore” pvp player (never been above 1800), the add on thing absolutely is a significant factor of why. It just feels horrible to have all these indicators for every single ability anyone in the match has. It would feel a lot more engaging to have to be watching out for in-game visual indicators combined with listening to comms of what’s actually going on in the match than it is just looking at different parts of your UI to see who just got juked or whatever. That’s also not even mentioning the botting problem. Really, I think Max makes a good point when he says the vast, VAST majority of players engaging with pvp are playing it at a semi-casual level, where they want to run some BGs with the boys or solo and just slam the keyboard against another team, but the balance and focus around BGs is just in the toilet. It’s so stale. There are 3 versions of Arathi, 4 if you count EotS, but at least there’s a flag in that one. There’s a new BG every, like, fourth xpac and usually it’s swamp tier, or they change one in a way that makes it even MORE similar (deepwind gorge is just arathi 2 with no cart run…why?). The best is when there’s a good brawl on, those queues are always fast as hell because people WANT something different. Epic BGs feel even worse. They should feel like it’s two large teams really fighting for objectives or something, Ashran is an absolute meme, IoC and WG just have shifting metas where if one team gets one particular objective, it’s essentially GG barring some extreme outlier of a team. AV is literally just a sprint. They took away Strand, which had its own (similar) problems but at least it was another in the rotation. TL;DR: gear good, addon bad, BGs bad, many casuals like BGs Idk, I certainly don’t have the magical fix idea, I’m just some guy, maybe those BGs are too far gone in their original designs to ever be more balanced experiences, but there’s almost definitely a way for them to make fun, engaging, PvP content in retail in the year of our lord 2024. I’d like to point to plunderstorm, and that IS well-made and quite fun, but it really is so fundamentally different from retail PvP it’s essentially a different game. Plus, it’s not all bad, personally I think DF took some steps in the right direction, like I said I feel gearing is pretty good and overall class balance feels good (unless you’re a paladin, then it feels REAL good), so I’m hopeful for the future but I’m not really holding my breath.
I Raid and M+ i love doing both and feel i would be bored af if i didnt have to do both to be optimum cause raid eats such a small amount of weekly play time.
10:56 The one-by-one talent “learning your class” phenomenon has been a thing for all of DF, not just this 10.2.7 event. I learned rogue, warlock, priest, and mage this way during the downtime b/w raid tiers. It’s really a testament to how, despite any issues from an end game perspective, the talent trees are very well implemented for the leveling experience.
Except that is a crap system.
Having basic spells like rejuv should be in the spellbook, not talent tree
@@ironsideeve2955You completely missed the point. The idea is that even though it’s a basic spell, it’s slowly introducing these things to new players to the class instead of just overloading them with a million things at once.
@@gorilla30100 no I didn't lol...
I said its a crap way to do it
@@ironsideeve2955 You didn't even give any reasoning for it, lmao. We literally already had what you suggested and it was terrible for anyone that was new to the class/returning.
Literally what even is the downside to having to pick it as a talent compared to having it in your spellbook? I just don't see why this matters. They are balanced around you taking that point so "it takes away a point" shouldn't be an issue.
@@ironsideeve2955 hold the L. Next time actually make a supporting argument
Poddy C notification while on the poddy, amazing timing, can't wait to watch it.
poddy ur welcome
I Poddy C what u did there 😂
Who else is hyped more for Pandamonium than S4? (saying this after playing the hell out of this on the PTR)
A game is only as good as its reward structure. (Whether it be tangible rewards or achievements/accomplishments).
I played a ton of the panda PTR stuff and had a great time, and am super excited to get in and collect a ton of stuff and do a bunch of stuff I haven’t done before. But at the end of the day I’d be perfectly happy with just S4 also if they put this much effort in rewards like they did into panda remix. WoW creates great gameplay loops, but incentivizes then extremely poorly. Hopefully remix is a sign that we start to see changes in that pattern!
Meeee😊 my plan is to just get 2.5k io then ditch to time running
Everyone I know is more keen for this than s4
My guild’s plan is to play S4 till we’re satisfied with gear going into TWW, and then swap over to MoP remix as soon as it is available.
More like who isn't. S4 gonna be dead af compared to this.
I want at some point a season 4, where its like a "Best Hits" where its like 8-9 bosses of like the best bosses from all xpacs brought up to current mechanics/scaling.
It could just be called a world trial, rather than a "raid". No trash, just go in, kill bosses.
I believe the m+/raid gearing system can definitely be solved by the bullion system or some other kind of determinative loot. Mythic plus players can get some of the raid loot after some time without needing it to be a drop and raiders could get m+ loot without feeling forced into doing an excessive amount of it. Sure they would still probably have to do a certain amount of the other type of content, but it would be better than it is without any determinative loot acquisition.
So I've been on both ends, I used to raid in a guild from mop through legion that was always us 5th-ish (at the time put us something like world top 30ish) and then legion / bfa burned me (and my entire guild) out. Came back for SL and I've mostly pvp'd since and have gotten to just shy of 2.5cr in 3s each season of DF so far, think my highest was rank 27 for my spec in shuffle.
The gearing in SL S1 was what actually got me into pvp initially. I was doing a F&F heroic raid in nathria, these were people from the old guild so we ran out of heroic to do as fast as you'd expect. At that point the only way to continue progressing my toon was to either get back into mythic raiding, and I just didn't want the commitment / finding a new guild... or to pvp since it gave mythic ilvl gear for hitting duelist. Ended up really enjoying arena and have been more focused on that.
What I can tell you from the pvp community on the stuff ya'll were talking about:
~ Pvp gearing has been really good this xpac, there's a pvp ilvl on gear (split between boe greens, honor, and conq gear having different ilvls) and it works like wod so that's great.
~ The big problem is there's this inverse thing that happens over the season. The start of the season is the most deflated mmr is / the hardest it is to push rating and get rewards so people just don't bother trying and wait until months into the season when blizzard artificially inflates mmr. At the same time players who continue playing are getting full geared, and so they have a massive power advantage which makes it really difficult for players to grind out the new gear.. so it keeps a lot of people from wanting to play or get into it.
So you have this ass backwards situation where the best time to push is as late as possible into the season... but that's also the hardest time for people to get into it because they're super behind on gear. If they're someone who's very good at pvp they can reasonably grind it out under geared by out skilling people, but for your average player its not fun getting stomped for a week before you can play the game... and that's ignoring that the first 5 months of the season feel like a waste to play in.
The biggest issue with addons is about accessibility more than anything. Players feel that the barrier to entry for pvp is so incredibly high and one of the major parts of that is that you feel like you're playing completely blind with the base UI because you can't see some of the most basic things like diminishing returns at all. There's also so many important cds etc that are effectively invisible without addons, like when a rogue presses shadowblades or shadow dance while on the opposite end there are cds that scream at you like combustion or wings.
Addons give you a huge advantage in just visibility, yet alone telling you how to play. The thing that's especially bad for pvp is most of these addons aren't set up in a "plug and play" sort of way so a savvy new player will grab all these addons they hear a top player is using and then their screen is a mess and they're handicapping themselves because they're being bombarded with useless information and they don't even know what most of these abilities are or what they do.
There's also the aspect that some old school players dislike how the games evolving and prefer how the game feels when you're playing blind and just having to make assumptions on when a cd or a dr is coming up or if this person has kick.
Imo the biggest problem pvp has is really just systems, reward structure, and actually just playing the game. The fomo limiting how many rewards are available, the mmr deflation every season making it so its only worth playing for the last month of the season unless you want to sweat your ass off, the que times for shuffle and how impossible it is to find people via lfg.
Players need an avenue to being rewarded for their time, and more things to grind because as soon as they hit rival and get their transmog set most players quit because they feel like duelist yet alone glad is unreachable for them.
After leading a guild from Classic to WoTLK and into SoD.. most of the average player base of Classic cannot do complex raids and it is not their focus. I recruited zero players in classic, not 1 recruitment post. In TBC we had to replace about 5-6 players that could not do T5 or Sunwell. In WoTLK we went thought 60+ players. It was clear the shift in difficulty in Ulduar and hICC filtered out a massive portion of the player base. Looking back I would guess that maybe 10 of the original Classic 40 are capable of Heroic Lich King mechanics, which are not hard compared to Cata. Max should do an undercover PuG in SoD and see how it goes. I think it would be very eye opening.
😅
Bro classic undercover raid leading would go hard
I'd love to hear a bit more Dratnos in these. He always has good takes, but wont interrupt like the others to speak.
Edit: good
His takes are not based, just good
who knew max and dorki could have fun leveling a character like it's intended instead of just boosting xD
Hell yeah, literally just finished watching Max's upload of the Mage Table reaction and now this is uploaded.
Its a good monday.
As someone who watched the Venruki pod it was indeed very good and not PvP specific at all he has good takes on all sides of the game
PvPer listening in. You're correct: the gear system should be extremely simple and just "get out of the way" so I can focus on the gameplay and my own improvement.
Isn't that the case in pvp? Honest question, didn't play for a few years, but some guild mates said so
Having to gear up for pvp is very dumb and keeps me from doing it as I'm already spending so much time gearing for pve
@@celestielsigh it's like one evening, so it's not too bad.
@@Painchiller I guess so but I don't wanna :(
As one of the two pvp fans you have (really I do all 3 modes), a great trinket that draws in pve'rs is fantastic for participation. Like you said, the remaining pvp community is largely very very good due to being not very large so you have to be sweaty all the time. The problem is when pve trinkets come into a competitive scene and one shot. Also, tier sets being designed for pve mean that some classes just get screwed for power/fun in pvp so a separate pvp tier designed specifically for that mode would be good. As a side cook, I love Diablo having multiple tier sets you can choose from. I'd like them to keep all the tier sets in for the expansion and just let the builds go wild.
My cook on trinkets: Just make all trinkets as purchasable items with a time limited currency (e.g. Dinar, Bullion) and even take them out of the M+ loot pool and vault completely.
Raid only players wouldn't feel forced to farm the same dungeon over and over again for a specific trinket, M+ only players have the option to just buy a raid trinket they might want a few weeks into the season.
IMO it either should be much easier to get items which can have up to a 10% effect on your overall throughput or they should be nerfed to be never worth more than a couple of %, but that option wouldn't be nearly as fun.
This coming from one of those people who gets their +20s and AOTC every season but never pushes above that - I end up most seasons having BiS gear in all but 2-4 slots and those last slots are ALWAYS trinkets.
Also as an unrelated cook I think that trinkets should be separated out to On-Use being mutually Unique-Equipped, because fuck double on-use, I don't have enough spare buttons for that shit.
To dratnos, DH and DK are already starting around level 10 on retail, Evoker is the only "hero" class in the game that starts at a high level now.
Another great episode boys, good work. I personally know I won't have the time to play MoP classic, so I am looking at this Pandamonium thing as my version of experiencing my FAVOURITE expansion again and giving it a proper farewell.
Huge shout out to Blizz in 2024 who are on absolute fire and I really hope they keep these crazy things coming our way in the future. 💜
As a PVP enjoyer, 1800 on multiple characters, I don’t want pvp to be mandatory for pve. That’s how you get hatred for pvp. What I want is a solid pruning of class abilities and modifiers so that pvp is easier to get into for primarily pve focus players and makes it so they aren’t just dying out of nowhere. Another thing is I don’t want to have to track 5 different offensive and defensive and diminishing returns per player per team.
I also recently started to pvp without pvp specific add ons only using visual indicators for spells now and it is 1000% more enjoyable. Every class in cooldown needs a distinct audio and visual so I don’t have to have years of game knowledge or a weak aura telling me to click a button.
Absolutely agree with you. The fundamental problem of WoW PvP is that the classes and game are designed for PvE. It's the inverse of GW2 which was built from the ground up for PvP and then has PvE on top.
Think about 3 fundamental things the WoW PvP designers have to work around just to make PvP work.
1. Range Hit Scan Abilities. Ranged abilities hit instantly, which means in an open arena range wrecks your life. So they had to make pillars and make sure there was environment in the way.
2. Tanks.
Tanks exists in the game, and they are either too tanky and do too much damage, or they have to be nerfed to never be viable.
3. Healers.
Healing in WoW works for PvE, the frame targeting and abilities to heal people at any range works there. In PvP it can lead to infinite games. So they had to design dampening and continuously tweak it. If it's ever off the arena match lasts forever.
Splitting gear even further is a poor idea. Dratnos hit it perfectly. Something else to consider: I play all 3 specs of monk. Each one wants something different in their gearing. I would have to gather 6 sets of gear instead of 3 to play them a good efficiency in both content forms. There's already not enough space for things. This just adds complexity to gearing for no valuable reason.
Also the Venruki ep is a banger. 10/10 would recommend.
I'm a PVP andy turned CE Raider. PVP gearing is perfect as it is atm.
Love venruki so much, your ep with him was awesome.
Can give plenty of mixed takes as I've played all facets of wow and enjoy them all (except pet battles lol)
I want to echo this sentiment; the current PvP gearing is probably the best it has ever been, and Venruki (and your episode with him) is great.
Really solid discussions boys, nice episode! Regarding SoD as a big SoD player; most people playing just want a game mode where we can chill with the boys and just pump. We only wanna use 2 brain cells and have fun. We progressed at 60 in 2019 classic to an extent, cleared pre nerf tbc content, had ulduar hard modes and heroic ICC. Progression content is fun and nice, and I personally enjoy it as well as some retail. But having just 1 mode that’s super chill is very nice. We can have challenging content in literally every other version of Warcraft. Maybe the sunken temple nerfs were a bit overkill, although I wasn’t in there week 1. Went in week 2 with a mostly guild group and 1 shot everything except last 2 bosses. They took a couple pills each and it was fine.
Ive always treated gear as a means to an end for getting into harder content, most of the people ive raided mythic with were the same, we were there for the challenge gearing up faster was a nice bonus and things like the 421 Icon of the Incarnates were super cool but not why we were all there.
Id like to see gear cap out at the hero track level. Heroic drops start at 473ilvl while Mythic starts at 480ilvl and both cap out at 483 (The last 3 Bosses can drop gear at 4/6 for H and 6/6M)
Mythic+ plus can be scaled according where the vault slots you get are Hero track 6/6 if you completed a 10 for the week.
End of dungeon rewards for a 10 can drop you 1/6 Hero Track at 467. (keeping in mind the new key scaling moving forward a 10 should feel like a 20 currently)
This way your gear progression is based around getting crests/badges and upgrading the gear overtime for the first few weeks/months of the expansion hunting for pieces with BiS stats If you want to min/max. Mythic+ oriented players now just have to pug 1 or 2 bosses a week on heroic for those elusive trinkets which isnt perfect but its better then never being able to get the mythic version of the trinket.
You unlock "The Mythic super shiny particle dense" transmog appearance with CE/Keystone legend 3k or something) give the mythic raiders some extra shinny bits and bobs so we can feel good about killing things and people would still do it. Most of my guild could care less about 98% of raid drops with exception of the same 4 items that EVERYONE wanted.
The vault in turn grants you one Dinar/Bullion a week which allows you to purchase gear down the road if youve been unlucky.
1:15:05 big true, you have to have all the weak auras so you can preemptively prepare a counter for your oponnents next move down to the second
1:08:41 The feeling of watching your entire raid in nyalotha press font of power is awesome, and I personally think it would be cool if more trinkets like that existed
I love that drat can’t help his facial expressions sometimes when someone says something haha reminds me of… me haha
I would actually really enjoy if great vault could scale from all activities but you could put all points in your favorite category like all options show raid items
Thank dorki for the pvp shout out.
I play all 3 game modes. But my time allocation is pvp > m+ > raid.
In pvp i got 2.1k, in m+ i got all portals, and raid i only cleared on normal in first few weeks of season.
I wish there were more incentives to be proficient in all game modes. Like the mark of mastery for tier piece should be earnable up to 3 times
PoddyC needs Tettles to be on each week😊
Love these podcasts gentlemen keep up the good work
Max, thanks for bringing up PvP add-ons! OmniCD is the reason I quit, because it turns the pvp scene into the same "predict the mechanic and prereact" we have grown to hate in M+ and S3.
A big poddy thank you to Fronk for always making this content possible. We appreciate you more then you know!
Havoc ~usually~ feels good in 10-30, but you spend a good chunk of that in the scenario specifically designed for DH. I’m also curious about how this would feel!
Just make the trinkets share a unique equip status so you can only equip one or the other
Max keeps mentioning "raid tuning" but tbh I think outside a few tinker outliers, the raids are being exploded in the way its intended with the OP level of strength our characters are supposed to have.
Fronk, if you see this, you are a beast and I love the videos you make
If they can add an affix that gives increased 100% cooldown recovery for m+. Then it should be easy to add it to a permanent buff 🙂
the venruki episode was pretty sick, vouch
I’m wearing a “run xxx” shirt today too. Mine says run kmc ❤
Dorki, you should try arcane, it's so fun. But I completely agree with the leveling takes! As a player new to WoW (S3 SL), the leveling process is so great for learning the specs and getting a core understanding of the rotation. The class just starts to make sense and then you are max level and actually know how to press buttons lol
I enjoyed grinding out pvp and playing with pvp friends that i may haven't played with in years during season 1 shadowlands. Was fun to push myself to get better in a different game mode UNTIL I lvled an alt to main swap... Doing the grind a 2nd time on a class with little pvp experience was hell on earth for the 2nd toon.
you are better off feeding your alt from your main
"I want something I can feel" so true Dorki
I got to level 50 in remix... it just keeps going faster and faster the longer you play. I had +80% xp on my cloak and my armor slots each had 3 extra abilities or procs.
I played up to level 20 with a DH and there’s some goofy stuff like you can take talents to improve Throw Glaive, Blur, and Disrupt (kick) a couple levels before you learn the actual abilities. It’s definitely built for an endgame experience but if you don’t know better then you can get screwed by a silly mistake.
MoP Remix is fun af though
Regarding the patreon question, I feel like the dinar system alleviates most of that friction.
I wonder if they could do something where you can level up to max, prestige and get some sort of bonus for leveling up again, and have that multiply. Be it movement speed, %-drop rate increase etc, "Season of the Paragon" or something along those lines.
Something along D3s paragon levels. (Dunno if the 10.2.7 cloak has a cap but like, more of the cloak stuff maybe)
That said, all of this may be completely unwanted by the folks that do play classic which I unfortunately don't, but just an idea that crossed my mind.
I always use the allegory of trying to visualize a billion dollars, is the same as the skill difference of players in wow. You can tell people but until they actually play with someone it doesn't really process in the brain
I’m hyped to level alts. Not sure how hyped I’d be to level if they do this again though.
I'm all for the infinite scaling power, and the tuning to be right about where it is tbh. As someone who progged all of mists, I don't have much interest in going over 10 pulls per boss, and in a pug group thats about where it is gonna be right now. So it will naturally be a bit of a stomp for a full guild. Keeping in mind that we have mythic to do yet
i think an easy solution to the OP trinket situation for those who only want to do M+ or raid is make one OP one for both that do the same shit and make them unique to each other so you can only equip one at a time
or like with S4 give us dinars to buy them but make them be able to be earned through either raid or M+ per week by like killing 4 raid bosses and doing 4 keys or some shit
Max is so out of reality about the Mythic Plus environment it actually hurts. People who enjoy M+ is FORCED to also do raids, specially since most M+ enjoyers (1% or below) are tier list sicks and will do everything to get the BiS trinket/gear that wowhead or icyveins suggest
Yesss thank god i can finish the work day
The disproportionate effort a M+er has to go through to get a mythic vault slot vs. a Mythic raider just doing 1 20 per week is a bit skewed imo. I think Mythic raid pugging should just be like heroic to help close this gap.
Dorki saying the participation in each mode would go down if separated I feel like is true. This is counter to Max saying that the majority of players like to do both. I don't think Max's argument can be evaluated until you see what players would choose if given the opportunity. Additionally, Max saying Blizzard would never separate gear partially untrue. They've already made tier accessible outside of raid, this trend is likely to continue as the m+ demographic grows.
I used to care more about splitting m plus and raiding. But with the upgrading system its definately changed my opinion. But as a herpic raider the best way to get gear for herpic was always to just do mythic plus. But now i cam pretty much ignore m plus unless i want to, which overall is a lot healthier syle of play for me who just wants to pretty much log on raid and then log off.
Ahhh o thought it was a quick little pandaria classic, with the OG monk. Not a fan that it’s all dragonflight. But sounds like a great way to level an alt.
After the changes coming with M+ starting at a higher difficulty I think M+ is mostly fine up to portal level. That being said the tournament realm for M+ should be spun off into a mode selectable on the main screen. That way if my biggest focus is just pushing I dont have to worry about farming gear and could just push.
What’s the likely hood of them taking the pandamonium leveling experience and making that the leveling for new expansions? With or without a raised level cap, your character starts at one and you (speedily) level to max. New and inexperienced players get the opportunity to play with better players as they level instead of being lopped in with a bunch of themselves and power leveling alts who they haven’t a chance to keep up with. With more and more going account wide, a copy+paste character mechanic where (at the very least) everyones first time through the expansion starts together could be very good for the community as a whole. Once at cap, you now have the option with alts to level this way or use time walking like the current system.
Hot take, I just enjoy playing the game.
I’m pretty average across the board, I get AOTC, m+ 16-20s, and pvp to 1800. And I like building up my different gear sets and feeling like I’ve “completed” my m+ set, raid set. Etc. That said, pvp gearing is my favorite. It takes me one day of BGs to get honor gear and the way it scales allows me to compete to the level I want to early on to 1600-1800. Then conq and vaults truly are a cherry on top. PVE I just shift my mental to a longer grind and, surprise, it’s still enjoyable lol.
I think i good compromise for adding the old prestigious items back would be to either do what new mage tower did and just use timewalking scaling to each xpac (i think the mage tower difficulty tight now is fine, its doable in any gear but its easier if you farm out a set for it) or treat challenge modes like vicious mounts and do them every xpac (maybe in the final season of each xpac) and if you do more than the amount to get the set from whatever is current you could get a vicious saddle equivalent and buy them. I personally like time gated things and items being removed but i feel like either of these could be a good compromise and one that, personally, i would be 100% down for
For things like tcg mounts which never had a way in game of getting them they could just put them behind difficult content so they're still available and not just given for free on the trading post
As an AOTC raider, I have to do M+ to farm crests and get top level gear. Myth track gear and aspect crests are WAY easier to get in M+ than raid.
As a pvper the only thing i would want different with the gearing is making gearing alts even easier as you gain rating i think that's fair
I'm Podding on the next episode to be banger hell yeah
As a pvper alone who does pve with friends, it does feel bad much more bad to be behind in gear in pvp and doesn't feel particularly good to be ahead either, but a cool trinket or weapon at the cost of losing some survivability is always fun. The bigger problem for me tho, is the abilities that are different between the two, not the gear. I'm p sure I have 10 more binds (without macros) than the avarage player, just so I can switch between both easily.
Kinda crazy how they're still releasing the entire patch content on PTR
I'm a long time PvPer (I usually just get glad and quit ladder now) and recently gotten into M+ (Currently a lil higher than 3600ish), and I 100% agree with Max's take about the only people really left in the community are people that are equivalent to the players that are pushing keys. For gearing it's definitely viewed as much better to be separated because the general consensus for PvP is that everything should just be a fair and level playing field, and if someone whose been playing for 6 weeks of the season has a 20% gear advantage to someone who is in PvP greens is viewed as cringe beyond cringe. If PvE gear were integrated into PvP, like it has been a few times in the past, people just absolutely hate it due to the same reason listed above but another layer of cringe added for that gear that's needed for that 20% advantage to have to come from M+ or Raid.
Isn't saying if people didn't have to raid that raid would be dead very telling about the current status of raid?
Not really the same would be true for m+ heck even pvp have seen the amount of players dip very low when gear does not matter.
I think the fact that questing was only viable for leveling from 10-60 is a good thing. 60-70 being slower, taking longer, forcing you into dungeons or raids to level is good. You don't actually need to be level 70 to experience most of the content, so the goal doesn't need to be level 70 on day one.
Dorky straight up reading from a script on that intro. Blizz sponsored episode?
Im someone that feels like raiding is a chore, but it’s only because I don’t have a guild to raid with due to working nights. Having to find groups to farm the legendaries for my paladin and evoker has killed my motivation to play. So I get where people are coming from, but I don’t know how you would fix it, outside of making raid loot drop in M+, but then you’d have to put a limit on how much gear you can get in a week.
apply for a weekend guild! good luck on being able to finish ur legendary, i had to do two of them and it was ass but i made it
@@aimbeezle I work weekends unfortunately. ☠️
People doing above 20s only aren't getting as much effective loot as Mythic raiders, if you're comparing 1% to 1%.
doing 20+ keys is not even close to the 1% (it's more like top 13%) even with all keys at 25+ you'd barely not be in the top 1% of m+ players. this season is way too easy and the squish is something that will hopefully restore some perspective on keylevels
@@fyzm The numbers of the dungeon are arbitrary. The fact that you're still getting hero gear on a difficulty like +30 is whack.
@fyzm it is the top 10% in current season
@@SurpriseCakespammable content vs weekly lockout. Want to only be able to run 5 25 keys a week or something for a chance at myth loot?
@@sethstuerke8772 people who only do mythic raid have much more access to mythic gear than people who only do m+. This should be changed.
Anyone else feel like this is a testing ground for replacing chromie time? The one flaw with chromie time I had was the fact that I choose wotlk and then once I get through borean and scholozar I’m close to the level I need and move on to DF. I wanted to see the lich king and fight through ulduar. This system in my opinion is a much much better way to do this leveling with raids and the dungeons is just great.
cata and wod were plagued by their spread out release schedule, i think people will be surprised by how good the classic versions of them will be
59:27 I don't want them to split gearing because I actually enjoy both (not pushing keys, I just like doing my weekly keys with the boys) and don't want to carry around 2 sets of gear but I feel like the only way to balance loot is to split them. Right now the game is heavily in favor of m+ over mythic raiding so much to the point that if you only do M+ (and maybe some heroic for a trinket) you are basically 98% of a mythic raider and that is insane.
Like I understand people doing +25-30 keys is equivalent to some mythic bosses but "Billy" doing +18 keys should not be anywhere near as powerful as a mythic raider or at least it should take him twice as long to get to that level.
Id love to play mop feral again, but people might find snapshots hard to master.
What do you think of this cook: trinkets only available from m+, tier tokens only available from raid (as they currently are). All things still available from great vault. I have put 0 thought in this but let me hear your opinion
In terms of PvE players forced to PvP, nothing was more resented for its time than the MoP Legendary Cloak requirements of winning the new BGs.
As someone who pushes on enhance in title range it's definitely mandatory to have rageheart. 😂
M+ OP Trinket
Raid OP Trinket
They can both exist. Unique equipped is still a thing. People would pursue whatever is easiest to get until they get the one they want.
I think it's a shame they didnt release at least recolored MoP CM mode sets. I still have one for Hunter (don't play it anymore) but honestly they are still peak class fantasy together with Legion Artifact Weapons and it is just sad for people who didnt play or (like me) just are super into class fantasy and changed they main over the last 10 years.
There are a million opinions about that online though but I personally think, man, just give the stuff to the people who care about it. I mean I remember getting the TCG drake with Twitch a few years ago and honestly I see nobody complaining about that but also I'd think there are like .0001% of player who are super glad they own that now.
I would love to have Shen in the 2XKO. We know Zed gonna be in the game and I need the Shen v Zed to be a thing
Man i wish it was old mop class design. I would kill for pre-legion demo lock
Love PoddyC! Take a shot every time some says 100%, you are now dead
1:05:03 Did Max just say “I had a conversation with a Blizzardman at Blizzcon”
I spent half my time on PVP, with the goal of getting to 2100 every season. Blizzard would need to do some work on the gameplay to make PVP approachable for PVErs, but getting them to come play PVP would be a plus for us. It would inject MMR inflation naturally into the system so we can avoid having super deflated MMR like in the current season, where you are facing R1 or multiglad players constantly at 2100. Also the remaining pvp community is pretty sweaty, so an injection of PVErs would mean we get to stomp some noobs early in the season which is a nice break from the super intense lobbies you get all day otherwise
However stomping PVErs is also what makes them hate PVP, and Blizzard would need to make CC and 1 shot much less prevalent for that to work. Currently if you're not tracking enemy spells, enemy CC, your own DRs you are at a massive disadvantage, and you absolutely need addons to track that well. A reduction from DF to SL level of CC would be a good start.
yay poddy time
Also as someone who got some of the CM sets and felt like I had to work pretty hard to complete those, they should bring them back lol. I want the ones I didn't get. At least bring back some recolors, and not those nerfed ones from legion, those suck!
Yall looking clean af tho
To answer dratnos, leveling havoc in this feels weird sense our class tree was obviously not designed to be that low level. At multiple points I was forced to put talent points into my tree for an ability I’m not even high enough level yet
You start DH at level 8 on retail now and DK at level 10, Evoker is the only "hero" class now that starts at high level.
@@Mushnp thank ya for the info, haven’t leveled a DH since 2017
"To be able to experience it how it was intended"; proceeds to complain about LFR. Crazy take there.
PvP needs to be introduced to more people. PvP should be viewed as an alternative gearing path. Shadowlands PvP had tonnes of people as the conquest gear scales up to current content. It wasn’t necessarily the best or easiest route, but it was an alternative which many people pursued. At the moment, PvP is purely cosmetic and the participation shows. Meaningful rewards will encourage participation.
As someone who plays exclusively PvE and mostly raids, I think the biggest mistake Blizzard ever made with WoW was giving up on Battlegrounds. RBGs are insanely fun and even more so when you consider how little effort has been put into them. Imagine if M+ was released in Legion and then had no changes made to it for the next 10 years. I know the current pvp scene is dominated by arena, but I think there is still a chance to salvage RBGs. At least we have Plunderstorm (for now) which scratches a similar itch.
As someone who has 4 nick of times at 483, but never seen a 489 vault, it sux
About the prestige stuff, bring it all back. It doesn't matter.
Not including Challenge Mode was a mistake.
It's exactly like doing Legion Remix and not bringing back Mage Tower.
The prestige is from doing the hard thing, I don't care when they did it.
I got Mage Tower appearance on my main in the first Tower opening, it was brutally hard, tons of time spent progging it.
Does it make it less special because someone else earned it late Legion with way more.gear and character power?
No, it doesn't matter.
Getting to train a dragon again ☺️💙😁
12:35 DH currently starts at level 10
i have the challenge mode set for warrior and i would not give a shit if others could get it again
Yeah same with my CM sets and Garrosh mount/looms. Just not the trading post. Let people go back and farm the mount/looms with a low drop. And either give CM in remix or even fixed ilvl during mop timewalking weeks.
Anything but the trading post, im all for.
PVP gearing feels pretty good imo, better than it has in a while, it feels good having deterministic choices. I know at the beginning of a season I can get a full set of greens and be pretty competitive. Even as the season goes on, if I don’t end up with full epics/enchants/gems, if I’m up against a player who does it’s still entirely possible to win. Unlike in the past, where some rogue who farmed out a BiS trinket in M+ is just going to delete me because I don’t engage in that content. PvP feels dead because there’s not much fresh about it.
From the perspective of someone who has never been a “hardcore” pvp player (never been above 1800), the add on thing absolutely is a significant factor of why. It just feels horrible to have all these indicators for every single ability anyone in the match has. It would feel a lot more engaging to have to be watching out for in-game visual indicators combined with listening to comms of what’s actually going on in the match than it is just looking at different parts of your UI to see who just got juked or whatever. That’s also not even mentioning the botting problem.
Really, I think Max makes a good point when he says the vast, VAST majority of players engaging with pvp are playing it at a semi-casual level, where they want to run some BGs with the boys or solo and just slam the keyboard against another team, but the balance and focus around BGs is just in the toilet. It’s so stale. There are 3 versions of Arathi, 4 if you count EotS, but at least there’s a flag in that one. There’s a new BG every, like, fourth xpac and usually it’s swamp tier, or they change one in a way that makes it even MORE similar (deepwind gorge is just arathi 2 with no cart run…why?). The best is when there’s a good brawl on, those queues are always fast as hell because people WANT something different. Epic BGs feel even worse. They should feel like it’s two large teams really fighting for objectives or something, Ashran is an absolute meme, IoC and WG just have shifting metas where if one team gets one particular objective, it’s essentially GG barring some extreme outlier of a team. AV is literally just a sprint. They took away Strand, which had its own (similar) problems but at least it was another in the rotation.
TL;DR: gear good, addon bad, BGs bad, many casuals like BGs
Idk, I certainly don’t have the magical fix idea, I’m just some guy, maybe those BGs are too far gone in their original designs to ever be more balanced experiences, but there’s almost definitely a way for them to make fun, engaging, PvP content in retail in the year of our lord 2024. I’d like to point to plunderstorm, and that IS well-made and quite fun, but it really is so fundamentally different from retail PvP it’s essentially a different game. Plus, it’s not all bad, personally I think DF took some steps in the right direction, like I said I feel gearing is pretty good and overall class balance feels good (unless you’re a paladin, then it feels REAL good), so I’m hopeful for the future but I’m not really holding my breath.
Blows my mind that some people have never leveled.
PoddyC
If they just re release vanilla through wrath with seasonal spins on them they will have a player base they will never lose.
I Raid and M+ i love doing both and feel i would be bored af if i didnt have to do both to be optimum cause raid eats such a small amount of weekly play time.