Excellent breakdown. I agree with every part of what you said. One thing that suprises me is how are you able to run 3 business, have kids / family and besides all of that you find a time for recording videos etc. You should seriously do a video on time management. I would highly appreciate that!
Thanks for this pep talk, Kevin. I have been guilty of this "how can I make it easy for my client's to update" mentality. My mindset has been shifting slowly over time, but your rationale has solidified the thinking. I will probably watch this video on repeat for a while! Tools like Squarespace and WIX have polluted the public perception of web design and development and many "low-value" clients feel that if they don't have those same features that they are not getting enough value. As with most things in business, educating the client is paramount - not only for our business - but for theirs.
Love it @Kevin! The problem I see clients make most often when it comes to writing copy is talking too much about themselves and not enough about their customer’s problem. Usually when pointing this out and showing them a client/problem/solution focused example of copy, they also see it and are on board. This is great reminder about being a professional!
Well, the bad news is that you’re not right….. the good news is you are not wrong. It really depends on the business model, the experience of the web developer, and lots of other factors. Not all webdevs know anything about marketing or copy writing. It’s fine that you do, and have a business model that highlights that. So if that’s your business model, great. It’s a good one. But there are plenty of designers that are great at design and TERRIBLE at marketing or just don’t want to write the copy or be responsible for every businesses messaging. So what! I’ve been at this for over 25 years. Seen a lot of things come and go. At one point we had over 4000 clients. obviously we didn’t have any desire to manage 4000 sites or work out they brand messaging. But that’s what the business model was built on…. Sites that real estate agents could manage themselves…. It was a GREAT business model. Then i sold it and went back to custom sites, because that’s what i like to do. But I still won’t write your copy! Bottom line is that there is not a single way to do things. If you like to give clients control, do it! If you like to manage the sites… do it! Something in between?… perfect! It all works if it works for you. Personally I have given at least 5000 clients control of their sites for over 25 years, and the reality is that only 5% ever login to the site. I have no desire to be a one stop shop. Just never liked it. and that’s OK.
I prefer to pick a lane and fight for it. If people don’t want to be in my lane on a topic it’s all good. 🙏 If my lane resonates with people then I encourage them to get on board and level up.
@@Gearyco Totally! That is a perfectly legit business model for sure. Honestly you only need a handful of clients to make really good money, if you are going the lion share of their online work. Just my own personal preference... I don't enjoy the added stress of being their go to for everything. I definitely have a some clients that I do everything from managing the site to print ads and brochures.... But I like to keep those to a minimum and enjoy the gentle recurring hosting income.... :) A lot less pressure and I can still squeak in a vacation here and there, without having to hire employees again. Again.... I made a lot more money when I had employees, but it also added to the stress and I was not able to do web design, which is what I love in the first place... Bottom line, any business model the you like and works..... IS AWESOME! Thanks for the ruckus video... I think it made lots of people think.. including me.. :)
Love it! You had me laughing in spots. Yes, I have had clients who said - "You build it, we want to run it ourselves." And 2 months after it was turned over to them, it didn't look anything like the delivered site. I simply don't turn over the keys any more. Really, that's giving away future income. What's the saying - "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?" If you charge $500 per month for growing a business and you just give it away, you just gave away $6000 dollars income for the year (for that one client). I got tired of chasing the next low hanging website and got much smarter. I learned about responsive webs, accessibility, SEO and social media marketing so I could be the expert. Is it easy? No. Because you spend more time than you would like weeding people out of your work future. You do not want those people who want a website, but have no interest in paying you a penny in the future. Who you do want is people who are too darn busy to turn around (much less edit their own site), but need you to keep the leads coming in the door. Those clients are your future.
Thank you for the video! I have had several customers who loved to get involved in the process and willing to make changes on the website afterwards. Time to time it was also a deal breaker for several projects like " oh so we pay a one time fee for building the website and we can edit it afterwards without any coding knowledge? count us in!" kinda response. I do offer them the option to edit their websites, heck I even create the website with all of acf fields, custom color in options etc. I even do a tutorial on how to edit stuff on backend and basic WOrdPress usage but...All of those clients who were really fired up to edit their own sites eventually came back to me and went like " you know what, I don't have time for this, why don't you take over the maintenance...". One more positive aspect of taking over later on was the appreciation of the work I am doing for them since they know it was not how they imagined it to be like posting some pictures on instagram.
This video literally had me in stitches at points. 😂 Sooooo good man! May our skills rise up to the level of true experts and may our clients respect that expertise. 🚀
Preach Brotha! I agree with you 98.7%, I do let clients access to certain parts, like CPT to add content but very specific and thought-out process in select situations, blog if they actually have someone capable and talented to do this, and access to updating events calendars if they are an events based client. Aside from that my work is part of a bigger package which requires us to manage everything.
I know that if I want to make the most money possible, I would keep control of client sites, but I have an ethical problem with that. If I buy a car, the manufacturer can do all the service, and maintain that relationship with me, but as the owner, I have a legal right to get my car services elsewhere. If I went to another garage, and they told me that they can only do oil changes because to do anything else requires a special key that the dealer kept, I would not be singing the praises of that manufacturer. Now I could be wrong, but I feel that good clients will stick with a developer who did good work. They want to, and it's not because we only gave them editor access (if that).
I had a client (whom I was doing other work for) come to me with an Excel spreadsheet he had designed the entire website in and he wanted me to just copy what he had done to make their website. I tried to explain that I couldn't deliver a website that looked like that to him in good conscience. He *insisted* that this was exactly what he wanted and "Why can't you just make it like this?" ... ... I fired the client. 😅
I agree with everything and it's a challenge to get to that point where you can "do it all" and have a network in place of seasoned professionals that you can depend and rely on to produce that top quality work that is promised. Many of us small time agency wannabes are still struggling just to get our skillset and toolsets in line. Keeping up with new responsive techniques CSS functions, grid, clamp, responsive fonts, accessibility etc. We're trying to improve our graphic design skills, add deliverables like wireframes and mockups, learn what needs to happen with privacy laws and GDPR and all that. Analytics is changing so now we have to move to Google V4 and learn their entire new reporting system. Google Tag Manager is getting more popular so we learn that. Even the freaking web builder space is changing rapidly as we jump from platform to platform every couple years and change builders and toolsets, learn addons and helper frameworks. Even putting that aside, when I do talk to larger companies, they already have some people in "IT" and "marketing" and "customer relations" who want to get their fingers into the pie. Jill writes the summer cookout flyer each year, so she can provide content. Joe has this one host he really likes and refuses to let us move DNS or hosting onto something modern. Sally has a favorite font she yanked from Powerpoint or something 10 years ago and demands to use it. The big boss man wants a picture of himself with his dog so it feels "personal" to users. The "marketing" person tells you all sorts of things about what users think in their heads; "if we put that there, nobody will look at it!" And you know this how? "I just do!". Intuition I guess. She read one article somewhere about the importance of "above the fold" content and now thinks the entire website must be contained above the fold, so we demand sliders and accordions and 6 columns and make sure nobody has to scroll cause that loses users! Remove all whitespace, no empty space! Fill all space with above the fold content! The point I'm making is that, there often seems to be people in these companies that are tangentially related to an area, so they have to force themselves into the design process to feel important or something. They may or may not make bad decisions, but the point is they feel they need to guide me and "make decisions" about everything. It's not easy to be assertive and confident enough to tell an entire corporate team that they all need to step aside and step down on this one and let us handle everything. I mean, who's to say their marketing person isn't a genius anyway? Who says their graphics person isn't brilliant? Why hire a contractor if their person may even be better than my person! The best way to asset all this is in person, or at least on cam, and that takes a bit of testicular fortitude
This is a really interesting argument! It's definitely something that I need to take a long hard look at. I left my full-time office job back in 2019 to freelance on my own and when I started out, I was really taken in by Oxygen's ability to allow clients to edit their own websites once the design was finished. My last project went well, but after I handed it over, they took ages to populate the templates and then created their own placeholder homepage in Guttenberg instead of using the Oxygen template I provided. Now the front page just doesn't look professional anymore. I'm tempted to reach out to them and offer to build a more professional alternative just to fix the issue. On one hand, I could do without the overhead of constantly amending client websites, which is what I originally liked about the client hand-off idea, but now, on the other hand, I'm starting to think that remaining the gatekeeper might be a more effective strategy in the long term.
As I've waded deeper and deeper into the waters of more experienced agencies, I've found that many claim that managing client's websites is actually paramount to finding next-level success. As Kevin says often, "Charge for everything."
RECAP: -I need to be seen, hired and treated as an expert. -I need to ACT as an expert, this is a key. (Expert don't handle over the key to the client to do whatever they want) -I need to became the website manager.(I have to drive where the ship is going) -I need to drive strategies for my client. -I need to connect to experts I trust in if I want to be a one-man band or one-woman shop.
I would say you only “NEED” to do what works for you. Don’t get too wound up in others ideas for your business, unless it’s inspiring… then by all means.. go for it. I do like the last item. If you are a one man show, make sure to have relationships with people that can do the things you are not able to do yet, or you just don’t enjoy. Focus on what you are good at and enjoy. You can’t be the expert in all areas. But you can know an expert in all areas.
Haha! I love that Oatmeal cartoon. You'll be pleased to hear in my other web group I always encourage people to write copy for their clients - saves them time, and the client isn't a professional copywriter.
I'm adding a "why we don't allow clients to edit their own site" FAQ to my site. I may just embed this video. I was nodding my head "yes, yes" so much, my head hurts.
What can I say, there are so many different types of clients and respective support arrangements. Kevin has his “secret sauce” and this was another great insightful drop on this topic!
I built a site at an insanely low rate for a friend for his car detailing company. A few months later, I see a comment on Facebook thanking his friend for helping "rebuilding a shambles of a confusing website with completely deleted SEO content that cost me a small mortgage last year". It cost £350 and the only reason it was "confusing" is that he insisted on trying to change everything without asking for help and ended up destroying it. So yeah, what you say is 100% true - I got slagged off in public for him breaking his website. People are, quite literally, the worst.
After asking in the INNER-CIRCLE which editor is more client-friendly, you come out with this video Kevin, you are the best. You force me to learn with your passionate speech, and with your clear and easy to understand manner. QUESTION: How can I follow your advice if I don't have the confidence that comes from the experience of growing a client's business? To this day all I've done is work as a "pixel pusher".
The rant was hilarious to a converted DIY ‘Client’. Went from searching for an agency to learning about white labels in Wordpress, and running away from it to Wix, Squarespace, Webflow, and back to Wordpress with Elementor. Saw your other video for the tech stack. I am glad that elementor exists, and I am glad it is thriving. Enough said.
@@Gearyco Short answer: Elementor is very intuitive to use. Long answer: I didn’t come to know of Elementor through much later in my journey of the web design market. In all honesty, if an agency would have made the process transparent and not hid behind white labels and it’s preferred solutions, then I would have outsourced the troubles of web design in Elementor to any agency, and I had a decent budget of ~10K$ for a Services website. But it is not merely the starting costs, the management costs are ridiculous from an agency. ~150-200$/hour for any edits. That later cost stacks up over time and is not sustainable. Those simple edits are easy in Elementor which is intuitive but not in others imo. I am a non coder, and I have tried my hand at Wix, Squarespace, Webflow too and gave up quick due to limitations in the former and complexity in the later. Elementor is the sweet spot, no limitations and not unnecessarily complex. Trust that helps.
Normally don't turn over the keys, but was just about to do just that with the last project. This video just changed all that and has hardened my resolve.
Wow!!! Great video! If I had $1 for every time I've heard, "Can you make the logo larger?" This is an awesome sermon.. just need to pass the collection plate! lol Church!!
I watched this whole video a few days back and also commented too. But, all of a sudden I remembered this video again for a reason - What do you suggest when it comes to client's access - frontend(setup ACF-based frontend post submission?) or backend access with the minor role ... to post new or edit old content? And, of course, what should be the Role? Thanks.
How can we train ourselves, web developers, how to do copywriting? I mean every business has their own "technical" words (they know their business and should know their ideal customers), how can we provide good copy for every client with different businesses?
I don’t…. I have them provide it, of offer to find a copy writer. I’m not bought into the idea you need to be the knower of all things and the client needs to bow to my power. Just not my thing.
So true, and this was a wake-up call to me. I've been allowing clients access to their websites since the start, and I've always known it was wrong yet continued to do so. Fixing that moving forward as I look back at some of the horrors that some of these websites have turned into... Good timing on this video too as I am now expanding my agency :D
Congrats on your success! Might explain in short how you reached that point of expansion or getting new clients? It is my hardest struggle right now :D
On top of this, is there ever an instance where you do let the client not change things, but add posts/classes/other pre-structured content to sites? like, just offloading data entry which can be very time consuming?
Great job on this Kevin, point blank in “your face “! Two things… client blog posts come into play .. 1-4 a month or maybe even 1 a day. I believe there is a case to be made for client entry for some posts. My second thought is you said a huge amount … maybe another video explaining the initial process steps …. Discovery etc etc My best Kevin
Hi Kevin, first thanks you for all your videos, really helpful material. I do agree with most of the points you are making - but since you want to be contradicted on this one here it is: I feel like you're a biased in your perspective on this by two facts: 1. Bricks being relatively new it doesn't seem to be there yet for client updatability (without addons /acf / customization). 2. Not all clients have clear and structured Updates requests, or the budjet to hire a professional to change a couple words on their homepage. I do feel the Bricks builder will get there and will try those bricksforge and other addons. Thanks again for the effort devoted to building a community. all the best
@@Gearyco true, AND personally I feel some clients / friends are enthousiast about being active in developing their content and updating it > its nice to show them how to properly do so as well. Id rather teach people of to fish than holding on to my ready cooked fishes, I feel more aligned doing so. I must admit it sucks when they make errors but the bottom line is its their site, im thinking. A good idea is to keep a copy of their site lookng like it should for portfolio purposes… which i didn't do yet ;-)
Kevin, so question re copy material. If the client isn't an expert at copy, but we're not a expert at their product, where is the middle ground to get from their content to good copy? At some point, you have to get something from them to at least work off of, no?
@@ocbroadband I was legitimately asking. Sometimes the client has a copywriter already either externally or internally and if that's the case that person can provide copy. If they don't have someone who is a legit copywriter though I just do it all.
the only thing i let my customers do on their own, is log in to their website with a predefined role. using that role, they will be able to add new blog posts, which are dynamically posted to the website. other than that, nothing is handed out to the customer.
I provide limited client access only if it makes sense. One client has a private online store that they manage themselves. They also have access to several custom post types with custom fields that they can edit. They do not have access to the Oxygen builder interface. A majority of my other clients want me to manage their whole site. I foresee some clients needing to edit some custom post types with custom fields. In all cases, I will not allow builder access.
One thing I’m confused over is the written copy. I get what you’re saying the content written for the web is much different than content in content (words, sales, communication, in person), but the web developer is not an expert in the clients industry. How is it they can write the content? Example: the industry is a niche professional industry, any niche
I record tutorials and provide full access for my clients. I wouldn't sell someone a commercial building but stop them adding/moving equipment or changing the colour scheme. Once the website is theirs, the website is theirs. Each example you gave still allows the client to make changes once the finished product is delivered. I hire a wedding photographer? I expect edited prints. But I also expect raw files. Architect? I'm painting that place one day. Commercial lawyer? I retain my right to make any changes I like, even if I'm a dumbass. The photos are mine. The house is mine. The contract is mine. ~70%+ of my clients pay me a retainer. The rest pay double when they screw up.
@@Gearyco I can't think of many products I'd be unwilling to let my customer tinker with. It's theirs, after all. Honestly it feels a bit... Gross to withhold access to something my client bought from me. If my client isn't choosing to come back to me for updates voluntarily then I screwed up, or they can't afford my services. Neither case entitles me to gatekeep their property. Freedom taken away in exchange for the preservation of ego just doesn't feel right. If a client screws up their website, I remove it from my portfolio or leave only screenshots of the original product. But under no circumstance am I entitled to treat them like children, no, MY children with a product they bought from me.
Client friendly or DIY services just made this worse. People think they can build a successful website by signing up on a Sass service or by installing a 60$ wordpress theme from themeforest and importing demo content. They fail but after that when they come to me to start again, they think cuz they installed wordpress once they know my job. I wish my clients never touched these before.
I am totally with you to stand up for your principles. But there is something in between. I have 3 kinds of clients. The most of them fit to your requirements. If the client or someone in his team has a technical background and a non-emotional approach to get things done like Mr. Spock, I offer them a special training to create content like blogposts, portfolio items or even change team members. They assume me as the expert when problems occure and we have respectful relation. When a client turns out as very annoying, I write a little documentation at the end of the project and wish him good luck. You see, there can be good reason to let the clients change things on their own.
I ain't mad at cha ;) -- But seriously, can we stop doing this?
I listen to this every morning now dude. Love it! I needed this seriously
Excellent breakdown. I agree with every part of what you said. One thing that suprises me is how are you able to run 3 business, have kids / family and besides all of that you find a time for recording videos etc. You should seriously do a video on time management. I would highly appreciate that!
Having a great team really helps!
Thanks for this pep talk, Kevin. I have been guilty of this "how can I make it easy for my client's to update" mentality. My mindset has been shifting slowly over time, but your rationale has solidified the thinking. I will probably watch this video on repeat for a while!
Tools like Squarespace and WIX have polluted the public perception of web design and development and many "low-value" clients feel that if they don't have those same features that they are not getting enough value. As with most things in business, educating the client is paramount - not only for our business - but for theirs.
Love it @Kevin! The problem I see clients make most often when it comes to writing copy is talking too much about themselves and not enough about their customer’s problem. Usually when pointing this out and showing them a client/problem/solution focused example of copy, they also see it and are on board. This is great reminder about being a professional!
Well, the bad news is that you’re not right….. the good news is you are not wrong.
It really depends on the business model, the experience of the web developer, and lots of other factors.
Not all webdevs know anything about marketing or copy writing. It’s fine that you do, and have a business model that highlights that. So if that’s your business model, great. It’s a good one.
But there are plenty of designers that are great at design and TERRIBLE at marketing or just don’t want to write the copy or be responsible for every businesses messaging. So what!
I’ve been at this for over 25 years. Seen a lot of things come and go. At one point we had over 4000 clients. obviously we didn’t have any desire to manage 4000 sites or work out they brand messaging. But that’s what the business model was built on…. Sites that real estate agents could manage themselves…. It was a GREAT business model. Then i sold it and went back to custom sites, because that’s what i like to do. But I still won’t write your copy!
Bottom line is that there is not a single way to do things. If you like to give clients control, do it! If you like to manage the sites… do it! Something in between?… perfect! It all works if it works for you.
Personally I have given at least 5000 clients control of their sites for over 25 years, and the reality is that only 5% ever login to the site.
I have no desire to be a one stop shop. Just never liked it. and that’s OK.
I prefer to pick a lane and fight for it. If people don’t want to be in my lane on a topic it’s all good. 🙏
If my lane resonates with people then I encourage them to get on board and level up.
@@Gearyco Totally! That is a perfectly legit business model for sure. Honestly you only need a handful of clients to make really good money, if you are going the lion share of their online work.
Just my own personal preference... I don't enjoy the added stress of being their go to for everything. I definitely have a some clients that I do everything from managing the site to print ads and brochures.... But I like to keep those to a minimum and enjoy the gentle recurring hosting income.... :) A lot less pressure and I can still squeak in a vacation here and there, without having to hire employees again. Again.... I made a lot more money when I had employees, but it also added to the stress and I was not able to do web design, which is what I love in the first place...
Bottom line, any business model the you like and works..... IS AWESOME!
Thanks for the ruckus video... I think it made lots of people think.. including me.. :)
Love it! You had me laughing in spots.
Yes, I have had clients who said - "You build it, we want to run it ourselves." And 2 months after it was turned over to them, it didn't look anything like the delivered site. I simply don't turn over the keys any more.
Really, that's giving away future income. What's the saying - "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?" If you charge $500 per month for growing a business and you just give it away, you just gave away $6000 dollars income for the year (for that one client).
I got tired of chasing the next low hanging website and got much smarter. I learned about responsive webs, accessibility, SEO and social media marketing so I could be the expert.
Is it easy? No. Because you spend more time than you would like weeding people out of your work future. You do not want those people who want a website, but have no interest in paying you a penny in the future.
Who you do want is people who are too darn busy to turn around (much less edit their own site), but need you to keep the leads coming in the door. Those clients are your future.
Thank you for the video! I have had several customers who loved to get involved in the process and willing to make changes on the website afterwards.
Time to time it was also a deal breaker for several projects like " oh so we pay a one time fee for building the website and we can edit it afterwards without any coding knowledge? count us in!" kinda response.
I do offer them the option to edit their websites, heck I even create the website with all of acf fields, custom color in options etc. I even do a tutorial on how to edit stuff on backend and basic WOrdPress usage but...All of those clients who were really fired up to edit their own sites eventually came back to me and went like " you know what, I don't have time for this, why don't you take over the maintenance...".
One more positive aspect of taking over later on was the appreciation of the work I am doing for them since they know it was not how they imagined it to be like posting some pictures on instagram.
This video literally had me in stitches at points. 😂 Sooooo good man!
May our skills rise up to the level of true experts and may our clients respect that expertise. 🚀
Preach Brotha! I agree with you 98.7%, I do let clients access to certain parts, like CPT to add content but very specific and thought-out process in select situations, blog if they actually have someone capable and talented to do this, and access to updating events calendars if they are an events based client. Aside from that my work is part of a bigger package which requires us to manage everything.
No doubt!
I know that if I want to make the most money possible, I would keep control of client sites, but I have an ethical problem with that. If I buy a car, the manufacturer can do all the service, and maintain that relationship with me, but as the owner, I have a legal right to get my car services elsewhere. If I went to another garage, and they told me that they can only do oil changes because to do anything else requires a special key that the dealer kept, I would not be singing the praises of that manufacturer. Now I could be wrong, but I feel that good clients will stick with a developer who did good work. They want to, and it's not because we only gave them editor access (if that).
My clients are free to leave at any time, at which point I'll turn the keys over to them.
I had a client (whom I was doing other work for) come to me with an Excel spreadsheet he had designed the entire website in and he wanted me to just copy what he had done to make their website. I tried to explain that I couldn't deliver a website that looked like that to him in good conscience. He *insisted* that this was exactly what he wanted and "Why can't you just make it like this?" ... ... I fired the client. 😅
Sheesh 🙈
I agree with everything and it's a challenge to get to that point where you can "do it all" and have a network in place of seasoned professionals that you can depend and rely on to produce that top quality work that is promised. Many of us small time agency wannabes are still struggling just to get our skillset and toolsets in line. Keeping up with new responsive techniques CSS functions, grid, clamp, responsive fonts, accessibility etc. We're trying to improve our graphic design skills, add deliverables like wireframes and mockups, learn what needs to happen with privacy laws and GDPR and all that.
Analytics is changing so now we have to move to Google V4 and learn their entire new reporting system. Google Tag Manager is getting more popular so we learn that.
Even the freaking web builder space is changing rapidly as we jump from platform to platform every couple years and change builders and toolsets, learn addons and helper frameworks.
Even putting that aside, when I do talk to larger companies, they already have some people in "IT" and "marketing" and "customer relations" who want to get their fingers into the pie. Jill writes the summer cookout flyer each year, so she can provide content. Joe has this one host he really likes and refuses to let us move DNS or hosting onto something modern. Sally has a favorite font she yanked from Powerpoint or something 10 years ago and demands to use it. The big boss man wants a picture of himself with his dog so it feels "personal" to users. The "marketing" person tells you all sorts of things about what users think in their heads; "if we put that there, nobody will look at it!" And you know this how? "I just do!". Intuition I guess.
She read one article somewhere about the importance of "above the fold" content and now thinks the entire website must be contained above the fold, so we demand sliders and accordions and 6 columns and make sure nobody has to scroll cause that loses users! Remove all whitespace, no empty space! Fill all space with above the fold content!
The point I'm making is that, there often seems to be people in these companies that are tangentially related to an area, so they have to force themselves into the design process to feel important or something. They may or may not make bad decisions, but the point is they feel they need to guide me and "make decisions" about everything.
It's not easy to be assertive and confident enough to tell an entire corporate team that they all need to step aside and step down on this one and let us handle everything. I mean, who's to say their marketing person isn't a genius anyway? Who says their graphics person isn't brilliant? Why hire a contractor if their person may even be better than my person!
The best way to asset all this is in person, or at least on cam, and that takes a bit of testicular fortitude
Well said
This is a really interesting argument! It's definitely something that I need to take a long hard look at.
I left my full-time office job back in 2019 to freelance on my own and when I started out, I was really taken in by Oxygen's ability to allow clients to edit their own websites once the design was finished. My last project went well, but after I handed it over, they took ages to populate the templates and then created their own placeholder homepage in Guttenberg instead of using the Oxygen template I provided. Now the front page just doesn't look professional anymore. I'm tempted to reach out to them and offer to build a more professional alternative just to fix the issue.
On one hand, I could do without the overhead of constantly amending client websites, which is what I originally liked about the client hand-off idea, but now, on the other hand, I'm starting to think that remaining the gatekeeper might be a more effective strategy in the long term.
You know what you need to do! :)
As I've waded deeper and deeper into the waters of more experienced agencies, I've found that many claim that managing client's websites is actually paramount to finding next-level success. As Kevin says often, "Charge for everything."
RECAP:
-I need to be seen, hired and treated as an expert.
-I need to ACT as an expert, this is a key. (Expert don't handle over the key to the client to do whatever they want)
-I need to became the website manager.(I have to drive where the ship is going)
-I need to drive strategies for my client.
-I need to connect to experts I trust in if I want to be a one-man band or one-woman shop.
YES!
I would say you only “NEED” to do what works for you. Don’t get too wound up in others ideas for your business, unless it’s inspiring… then by all means.. go for it.
I do like the last item. If you are a one man show, make sure to have relationships with people that can do the things you are not able to do yet, or you just don’t enjoy.
Focus on what you are good at and enjoy. You can’t be the expert in all areas. But you can know an expert in all areas.
Haha! I love that Oatmeal cartoon. You'll be pleased to hear in my other web group I always encourage people to write copy for their clients - saves them time, and the client isn't a professional copywriter.
GO OFF KING 👑 "2 weeks ago, his uncle Frank, who's 97, and back in 1942 had some graphic design internship for a year" 🤣🤣🤣
Great training like always. Thanks Kevin.
I'm adding a "why we don't allow clients to edit their own site" FAQ to my site. I may just embed this video. I was nodding my head "yes, yes" so much, my head hurts.
Great idea!
Great idea. Thank you Joe.
What can I say, there are so many different types of clients and respective support arrangements. Kevin has his “secret sauce” and this was another great insightful drop on this topic!
I built a site at an insanely low rate for a friend for his car detailing company. A few months later, I see a comment on Facebook thanking his friend for helping "rebuilding a shambles of a confusing website with completely deleted SEO content that cost me a small mortgage last year". It cost £350 and the only reason it was "confusing" is that he insisted on trying to change everything without asking for help and ended up destroying it.
So yeah, what you say is 100% true - I got slagged off in public for him breaking his website. People are, quite literally, the worst.
Ugh. Sorry that happened! Time to make sure it doesn’t happen again! 👊🏻
After asking in the INNER-CIRCLE which editor is more client-friendly, you come out with this video Kevin, you are the best.
You force me to learn with your passionate speech, and with your clear and easy to understand manner.
QUESTION: How can I follow your advice if I don't have the confidence that comes from the experience of growing a client's business? To this day all I've done is work as a "pixel pusher".
Study. Read. Practice. Grow into an expert. We all started somewhere :)
The rant was hilarious to a converted DIY ‘Client’.
Went from searching for an agency to learning about white labels in Wordpress, and running away from it to Wix, Squarespace, Webflow, and back to Wordpress with Elementor.
Saw your other video for the tech stack.
I am glad that elementor exists, and I am glad it is thriving. Enough said.
What’s good about elementor?
@@Gearyco
Short answer: Elementor is very intuitive to use.
Long answer: I didn’t come to know of Elementor through much later in my journey of the web design market.
In all honesty, if an agency would have made the process transparent and not hid behind white labels and it’s preferred solutions, then I would have outsourced the troubles of web design in Elementor to any agency, and I had a decent budget of ~10K$ for a Services website.
But it is not merely the starting costs, the management costs are ridiculous from an agency. ~150-200$/hour for any edits. That later cost stacks up over time and is not sustainable.
Those simple edits are easy in Elementor which is intuitive but not in others imo.
I am a non coder, and I have tried my hand at Wix, Squarespace, Webflow too and gave up quick due to limitations in the former and complexity in the later. Elementor is the sweet spot, no limitations and not unnecessarily complex.
Trust that helps.
Normally don't turn over the keys, but was just about to do just that with the last project. This video just changed all that and has hardened my resolve.
Stay strong!
Wow!!! Great video! If I had $1 for every time I've heard, "Can you make the logo larger?" This is an awesome sermon.. just need to pass the collection plate! lol Church!!
You raised some very interesting points. Thank you Kevin !
I watched this whole video a few days back and also commented too. But, all of a sudden I remembered this video again for a reason - What do you suggest when it comes to client's access - frontend(setup ACF-based frontend post submission?) or backend access with the minor role ... to post new or edit old content? And, of course, what should be the Role? Thanks.
I make them admin but they know not to touch anything.
@@Gearyco and what do you do if they touch it afterwards? You just "repair" the messed up page and they pay it. Right?
Very good content!! I appreciate it very much 🎉
How can we train ourselves, web developers, how to do copywriting?
I mean every business has their own "technical" words (they know their business and should know their ideal customers), how can we provide good copy for every client with different businesses?
Study and practice. Usually technical words and terms make bad copy not good copy. You can also hire copywriters and mark up their rate.
I don’t…. I have them provide it, of offer to find a copy writer. I’m not bought into the idea you need to be the knower of all things and the client needs to bow to my power. Just not my thing.
So true, and this was a wake-up call to me. I've been allowing clients access to their websites since the start, and I've always known it was wrong yet continued to do so. Fixing that moving forward as I look back at some of the horrors that some of these websites have turned into... Good timing on this video too as I am now expanding my agency :D
💪🏻
Congrats on your success! Might explain in short how you reached that point of expansion or getting new clients? It is my hardest struggle right now :D
Well I feel called out and I’m very happy about it. Im hyped for the Mastermind now, and glad I’m in the Inner Circle.
#nextlevel
On top of this, is there ever an instance where you do let the client not change things, but add posts/classes/other pre-structured content to sites? like, just offloading data entry which can be very time consuming?
@@korduran I just outsource time consuming data entry. I don't want the client anywhere near the website if at all possible.
Great job on this Kevin, point blank in “your face “! Two things… client blog posts come into play .. 1-4 a month or maybe even 1 a day. I believe there is a case to be made for client entry for some posts. My second thought is you said a huge amount … maybe another video explaining the initial process steps …. Discovery etc etc
My best Kevin
blog posts are the only area where a client should watch. or products for an e-commerce. all the rest is untouchable.
Kevin, Thank you for this.
Fantastic points made here in just the opening 5 minutes!
I like the green shirt, bro. The black hat and green shirt look good together.
Hi Kevin, first thanks you for all your videos, really helpful material. I do agree with most of the points you are making - but since you want to be contradicted on this one here it is: I feel like you're a biased in your perspective on this by two facts: 1. Bricks being relatively new it doesn't seem to be there yet for client updatability (without addons /acf / customization). 2. Not all clients have clear and structured Updates requests, or the budjet to hire a professional to change a couple words on their homepage. I do feel the Bricks builder will get there and will try those bricksforge and other addons. Thanks again for the effort devoted to building a community. all the best
All clients can afford to have you manage the site if you offer a basic management plan.
@@Gearyco true, AND personally I feel some clients / friends are enthousiast about being active in developing their content and updating it > its nice to show them how to properly do so as well. Id rather teach people of to fish than holding on to my ready cooked fishes, I feel more aligned doing so. I must admit it sucks when they make errors but the bottom line is its their site, im thinking. A good idea is to keep a copy of their site lookng like it should for portfolio purposes… which i didn't do yet ;-)
Kevin, so question re copy material. If the client isn't an expert at copy, but we're not a expert at their product, where is the middle ground to get from their content to good copy? At some point, you have to get something from them to at least work off of, no?
Are they experts at copywriting or just experts at their own services/products?
@@Gearyco Well, in terms of getting something to start with is where I was going with. I get your position though.
@@ocbroadband I was legitimately asking. Sometimes the client has a copywriter already either externally or internally and if that's the case that person can provide copy. If they don't have someone who is a legit copywriter though I just do it all.
the only thing i let my customers do on their own, is log in to their website with a predefined role. using that role, they will be able to add new blog posts, which are dynamically posted to the website.
other than that, nothing is handed out to the customer.
This is fine if the blog isn't being used for SEO / content marketing. Cheers!
@@Gearyco what if my clients are content marketers?
@@matthewvanderende7240 It's okay for qualified people to do things they're qualified at. I'm just talking about "general" clients.
@@Gearyco it's quite a nuance :)
What if the client needs to go in and post blogs? Is there a way to make sure they only got access to “posts” in Wordpress?
Yes
I provide limited client access only if it makes sense. One client has a private online store that they manage themselves. They also have access to several custom post types with custom fields that they can edit. They do not have access to the Oxygen builder interface.
A majority of my other clients want me to manage their whole site. I foresee some clients needing to edit some custom post types with custom fields. In all cases, I will not allow builder access.
One thing I’m confused over is the written copy. I get what you’re saying the content written for the web is much different than content in content (words, sales, communication, in person), but the web developer is not an expert in the clients industry. How is it they can write the content? Example: the industry is a niche professional industry, any niche
If the copy is technical copy, we hire a writer with expertise in that industry. But most sales copy isn't technical copy.
Another great one Kevin.
I record tutorials and provide full access for my clients. I wouldn't sell someone a commercial building but stop them adding/moving equipment or changing the colour scheme.
Once the website is theirs, the website is theirs.
Each example you gave still allows the client to make changes once the finished product is delivered.
I hire a wedding photographer? I expect edited prints. But I also expect raw files.
Architect? I'm painting that place one day.
Commercial lawyer? I retain my right to make any changes I like, even if I'm a dumbass.
The photos are mine.
The house is mine.
The contract is mine.
~70%+ of my clients pay me a retainer. The rest pay double when they screw up.
A commercial building isnt a comparable asset.
@@Gearyco I can't think of many products I'd be unwilling to let my customer tinker with. It's theirs, after all.
Honestly it feels a bit... Gross to withhold access to something my client bought from me. If my client isn't choosing to come back to me for updates voluntarily then I screwed up, or they can't afford my services. Neither case entitles me to gatekeep their property.
Freedom taken away in exchange for the preservation of ego just doesn't feel right.
If a client screws up their website, I remove it from my portfolio or leave only screenshots of the original product. But under no circumstance am I entitled to treat them like children, no, MY children with a product they bought from me.
@@Buttholio You raise some valid points. I think the truth, as always, somewhere in the middle.
Client friendly or DIY services just made this worse. People think they can build a successful website by signing up on a Sass service or by installing a 60$ wordpress theme from themeforest and importing demo content. They fail but after that when they come to me to start again, they think cuz they installed wordpress once they know my job. I wish my clients never touched these before.
100%
When you allow clients to edit their websites, it increases headaches by 10x. More management, more training, more design issues. Just don't do it!
I am totally with you to stand up for your principles. But there is something in between. I have 3 kinds of clients. The most of them fit to your requirements. If the client or someone in his team has a technical background and a non-emotional approach to get things done like Mr. Spock, I offer them a special training to create content like blogposts, portfolio items or even change team members. They assume me as the expert when problems occure and we have respectful relation. When a client turns out as very annoying, I write a little documentation at the end of the project and wish him good luck. You see, there can be good reason to let the clients change things on their own.
Everyone is free to do what they want. I recommend that clients not edit their own sites.
This is excellent!!!!!🤣😂😂🤣🤣 kill myself laughing
I gave a few clients access to their websites. Big mistake. 😬😞
Do you hear that? That's the Geary Zeppelin dropping truth bombs. 😉
LOL... I enjoyed this. And I'm still laughing.
Biggest headache I ever had when a client came with outdated design. Then it wanted it pixel perfect. That site has no activity.
They probably blame you for having no activity!
You should be a motivational speaker... 😀😀😀
In short - DEMAND RESPECT. Everything follows it. 🤩🤑😜🤪😝💯💥👋🤘🤟🤞✌🤙
Time for everyone to help level up this industry.
Bev needs to chill 😂
I expect you felt a lot better after getting all that sh*t off your chest....lol
Slept like a baby that night.
Stupid video. Just kidding. Good video.