I was quite surprised to learn it was a 205 GTi châssis. After watching the video, I did some research (read: Wikipedia) and basically some factory modified 200 205 chassis, the racing division moved the engine, replaced some stuff in it (some even were from the parts bin from Citroen) and called it a day. And as your neighbour noticed, the GTi was a bit dangerous, I can't imagine a 950kg/500hp version. On gravel.
@@JkTheMixer I read something like that in my wikisearch I guess it has to do with the diesel engines being sturdier. My grandpa had a 205 diesel, it was the most boring thing in the world. Hard to imagine it's engine was put in the beast that is the T16.
Correct. It had an XUD7-based block (because they were iron, therefore stronger) but the alloy head was bespoke. It was later productionised for the Citroen BX 16V and Peugeot 405 Mi16. Many Grp B cars were 2.1l, like the BX4TC, but weighed a bit more to compensate.
I have a regular Peugeot 205 (with a 306 gti engine), and have lately visited a guy that is rebulding one of the 200 roadcar 205 T16. I can assure you that a T16 only shares the head & rear-lights, front grill, and front windscreen with a regular 205 or GTi as mentioned in the video. Everything else was bespoke made for the T16. The diffrences are really insane, the T16 was from the ground up designed as a racecar. And just like the Lancia Delta S4, both cars were "for the time" state of the art space frame chassis with very lightweight body's on top that lightly resembled the sillouette of the car they inherited their name from.
Not at the same level, but I was at Silverstone this weekend and repeatedly drove over the spot where Zhou got sent arse over head. It’s weird to think on that spot something mental happened. I’d love to be a part of a BBC doc or something that went to these places and talked about these things to see the exact spots for myself.
@@AidanMillward These types of things make us think that in a second everything can change, and that turn in Sintra is one scary MF right now, imagine 40 years ago with the spectactors and 500BHP beasts, scary stuff really
It says a lot about Group B that modern WRC/GR1 cars are only marginally faster, with the help of ABS, traction control, semi-auto gearboxes and the rest. It says even more that the driver/co-driver's blood type is printed next to their names. It's all gone horribly wrong when you're assuming one or more of those crews is going to need blood transfusions before the event gets started..
@@AidanMillward afaik there's still racing series that require drivers wear dog tags with ID and medical info. I read that the mistaken identity of who was killed in the sidecar crash at the Isle of Man TT was because they had each other tags on
@@AmbientMike in the early 2000's they had all the electronic dothats you can imagine; ABS, traction control, electronic clutch, active diffs, paddle shifts,active suspension, GPS controlled ride height...
The main reason for Henry's crash was at the Lancia's team management. The team leader demanded Henry to continue, despite him being totally unfit to drive. His injured neck caused issues throughout the rally, and just before the stage they mangled his neck trying to give "fysio therapy" to leviate the pain, stuffed even more painkillers into him and sent him off. The flu was a symptom of long lasting pain medication destroying his immune system. Lancia killed their star driver with the rally group tailor made for them, all by themselves.
This is false actually, although Henri was suffering from the flu, and was stressed from the race, he was still eager to take part as he wanted to gain points to reclaim his championship lead. As Lancia had pulled out of Portugal after the crash that killed 3 people, and Toivonen had retired in several rallies in Sweden. Toivonen even while sick was stil leading the whole course by a massive margin and would most likely win the whole event had he not crashed.
Group B can best be summed up as "Build your Frankenstein monster rally car and let rip". 1980s excess taken to Spinal Tap 11 and then ignited with rocket fuel. You were left with the suspicion that if someone figured out how to build a nuclear powered rally car, the Group B teams would all have jumped on that scary bandwagon.
Group B was as insane as the fans. It took a great deal of skill and courage to navigate through a sea of people all wanting to touch the car as it was driven past at 100mph plus.
A couple of things to note: 1. People close to Lancia during that time have speculated that it was a stuck throttle that led to the crash of Toivonen, as it had happened in testing some four months earlier. I'd say that's highly likely due to the sources, but of course no certain cause can never be identified. 2. The 1986 season was controversial in another way. If someone thinks that 2021 F1 championship decider was controversial, wait until you hear about the WRC crown of 1986.
Im from Finland, Toivonen is still a legend and an icon. There was a huge story about him in the news when 30 years was passed since the crash, we remember our heroes.
So many possibilities with this case. Passed out from neck injury issues, passed out from the flu, passed out from general exhaustion, passed out from the fuel fumes (that was common to happen with that car as the fuel tanks were under the seats and because they used special fuels, Markku Alén said about this somewhere), gas pedal possibly went thru floor, brakes may have failed, tyre may have failed, misheard pacenote. Anyway, it's just amazing that rallying wasn't looked after safety-wise despite being way more dangerous for drivers and general public compared to many other racing serieses back in the day.
Great post! Thanks Yes, Fumes from special fuels and gas pedal stucked...according to someone very very near to Henri (cant say who, but not hard to imagine, if i say it's from his family), and someone who was a reporter for a well known Motorsports newspaper, (both talked to me in 1st person), off the Record Lancia team members and unofficial investigations, point to those 2 factors. And Of course, like Senna true cause, we will never know, because that would also put in check the same people that had by only goal, try to give by all means, the maximum performance to their drivers...and i imagine that theire own guilt by self-consciousness of what happened, is penalty enough! I remember that 2 of May, as if it was yesterday... probably the most vivid memory and important influence i have related to Motorsport...after all, Group B was that...the Worst and Best times of any era! PS- My personal passion for Motorsports, and my Journey with Simulation, fortunately gave me the chance of knowing some of these heroes, Salonen, Mikkola, Toivonen, Biasion, Rohrl..Alen, that i had the pleasure of having him in my Simulators...and also a personal friendship with Joaquim Santos... it's a real pleasure to ear those stories told by the protagonists!
I don't think he passed out, he was absolutely flying ahead of the pack and he knew he was ill.....I think he thought that was an advantage rather than a hindernce and tried to go even faster....Only Henri knows....He was a quality driver though.....
That's true, I remember the lombard rally in 85 ish in tatton Park, a Marshall was shouting at everyone to get away from the road , 5 minutes later the Marshall was tied to a tree 😂
I nearly cried when I learnt of this many years ago. They passed on my 2nd birthday, and in such a horrific way. Toivonen is a personal all-time favourite, along with Stefan Bellof. To learn of the circumstances, seeing the limited footage, and hearing the despair over the radio when they realized what had happened. RIP Henri and Sergio, what could have been!!!!
That day was my 22nd birthday. I'll never forget how I felt when I heard about the accident, complete devastation. Henri and Sergio were favourites of mine at the time, and would surely have been world champions at some point if not that year.
Then in the US at the time this took place, NASCAR was going 215 mph at Talladega (thanks to Bill Elliot) before the restrictor plates were brought in after Bobby Allison's terrifying crash in 1987 that took out the catch fencing. Before this incident, there were even talks that NASCAR were thinking about allowing turbos in the series (imagine what would have happened if that had actually taken place) This development while reducing the speeds also had the effect of creating "The Big One" at Daytona & Talladega that still happens today due to the cars not being able to spread out on the track.
What I remember were more talks to go to a V6 because V8 were getting more rare at one point... And some were mentioning the Buick V6 turbo 3.8 liter as a possibility to get closer to production engine, but it never went beyond conversations. But Nascar had ideas for a lot of stuff, like the L R series that never started. However, a turbo Nascar in the 1980s would also have depended a lot on the specific configurations and regulations. The SCCA was already trying different air intake restrictors for turbo engine back in the 1980s. Today, a 2.0 liter L4 turbo engine in a racecar could have 230 HP (something near showroom stock) to 2000 HP (a dragster is a racecar and you'd need 85 psi to create such monster). Assuming a 2.0 liter engine: at 230 HP in a huge Nascar of the time? Talladega would have been a sad joke with nobody passing... At 1000 HP? That would have been suicidal. At 2000 HP? Stupidly, it might have ended up being safe due to the engine self destroying before the green flag... At 600 HP? That would have been about the same as Nascar back then, but with slight difference due to weight balance and everything.
@@granttaylor8179 I didn't say that 230 horsepower for 2.0 liter turbo was good, only that it is in the realm of possibilities. I was thinking of things like the Belvedere challenge in Tunisia for the minimum. But than the track is less safe than Goodwood, so they really slow some car down. They also often have like 5 cars at the time on the track for safety reasons. But that Mercedes engine is very good, though.
@@therrydicule It could have made sense for NASCAR to go turbo V6 for the Cup series and use the same base engine as the Busch series (they were using a naturally aspirated V6).
@@Kylora2112 I think there was a small window where they considered a V6... But I think they got scared because Buick were doing very well in anything V6 and also considered that the Bush series (not too sure what it was called back than, I think it's Bush, it's now the Xfinity) drivers wanted V8s and were tired of racing Ford Fairmont and Chevy Nova. I think Pontiac had a Ventura at some point... But maybe they should consider bringing the baby grand back...
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So the story I heard about this one, from a Czech guy that was there at the time, is that Cesare Fiorio (Lancia team boss) sent Toivonen out despite not having fresh tires for him. Back then, there were no service parks like we have now, so service was simply some plot of land where you could set up your 2 vans with spare parts and work on the cars next to traffic and spectators. This meant, that if a van with tires lost his way (no GPS, no cellphones even, maybe some basic radio within the team - that's it for the communication!), then nope - no tires available. And those cars chewed up their rubber quite fast. The rallying in the 80's was so amateur in comparison to today's WRC. I talked a couple of hours to David Llewellin and he told me that when he drove Rally Sweden, his tires would basically be the ones thrown away as "used" by the guys at the front (Blomqvist, Mikkola, Röhrl). So when they had no more spikes left in them, they'd land on Llewellin's car ;) And Llewellin was driving a group B Audi in the top 8!
Calling Group B the Attitude Era of rallying is a great comparison. The most mental period of the sport with the biggest stars where people are still buzzing talking about it today
Technically it killed off TWO rules etc. Grp B and Grp S. Grp S was an even more insane set of even fast regs due out in 87/88. And there a fleet of stillborn cars for that set of regs that were built.... but never saw true deployment
When I grew up here in Canada during the 50s/60s I was a rabid F1 fan. I cut up my father's magazines and papered my walls with them. One day, while taking down the photos of yet another lost driver I realized that F1 in those times was, at its core, a blood sport. I took all the photos down and walked away for many years. I came back gradually, as the casualty lists started to shorten, and I'm once again fully committed. I think all types of motor sport owe a great debt to Sir Jackie and his peers. I don't believe that society today would accept the deadliness of motor racing in those days, and it might have gone extinct.
The saddest thing is that things might've happened sooner if some of the high profile deaths hadn't been friends who were trying to help campaign for safety. Like Jochen Rindt's being very critical of Colin Chapman's tendency as he saw it to build cars with no regard for driver safety, which lasted up until he died.
Trouble is, F1's peak, both for the enthusiast and for those who like sheer technical variety and a largely open design parameter, was the period you mention. Modern F1 is exceedingly dull
Original video was deleted along with my comments. But here is what happened after they disappeared from the WRC Another excellent piece, thanks Aidan Rally's loss was Rallycross' gain. All of those fire breathing (literally) monsters turned up from 86 onward. The very clever engineers / drivers developed these cars even further. The European Rallycross championship was shared around via the manufacturers during this period. Olle Arnesson in an S1 Quattro, Seppo Niittymäki (as in your picture) as well as his brother-in-law Matti Alamäki both in T16's. Martin Schanche RS200, Will Gollop in a Metro 6R4 (Bi-Turbo) all developed these to the max. They were all European champions as well. Not forgetting everyone else who raced in Group B. John Welch in his Astra was Opel's mothballed Group B project, Jean-Luc Pailler in Citroen's BX version. Gollop said he had to wear a full face helmet in the 3.8 normally aspirated 6R4 as the torque was so great, it could give you a blackout if wearing an open face version. He also said he could have run the bi-turbo (engine built by Julian Godfrey from memory that was a 3.0l de-stroked to 2.3l) with 800 BHP weighing 800KG. This was unmanageable so it would produce about 650 BHP. This engine would rev to around 11,000 too! This was the heyday for Rallycross in my opinion. At Brands Hatch at the only Grand Prix in the sport, you would have 10 of these coming off the line at once, totalling around 8000 BHP collectively, trying to be in the lead at the first corner. Run over 2 days, you could see why it would attract over 80,000 spectators. These cars would get to 60 mph in under 2.5 seconds and to 100 in less than 6. All with manual gear boxes. Any film makers out there, this era of Rallycross would make an excellent documentary movie, I'm open to be an adviser
There's surprisingly many of those cars still around and some in the guise they ran in the ERC back then, like Gollops twin turbo 6R4. Unfortunately most that survived through 1992 suffered a similar fate to Matti Alamäki's triple championship winning 205T16 E2...or E3, E4 depending on who you ask. After he wrecked it in 1990 it sat, allegedly all the Peugeot Sport special parts bin stuff was taken off and went back into hiding. Someone eventually bought it and restored it with some non-descript 1985 or 86 livery from the cars life in the WRC. Because collectors pay way more for that than a "used rallycross car." Also, speaking of Alamäki, his eleventy billion horsepower 911 4x4 is still around, IIRC somewhere in Sweden minus the Joest sourced engine.
@@RLRSwansonThanks for the reply. I think Alamäki's Porsche had twin turbos from an Arrows F1 car chucking out over 700 BHP. The blipping of the throttle to avoid turbo lag from Alamäki on the start line was insane! Pat Doran still has a few RS200's. I was chatting to him at Lydden a few years back. "Rosie" is in retro Rallycross where you can see some replica machinery. Rosie in the hands of Liam is still a very fast car. Seeing as an original group b machine can fetch eye watering sums at auction, it's no wonder the rally versions are being repatriated from rallycross.
@@chrisswain488 From what I know, the 3.2l engine that was in the car in , I think 1984 and 85 was a 935 unit he bought from Joest and that one made 750 DIN horsepower, at least in published numbers, but who knows what the actual numbers were, because they had so many problems with the car in 1984. However, it's probably safe to say Murray wasn't being hyperbolic in his commentary then :) I've heard that by 1986 the car had way more power on tap than they could use, like well over 950 if the boost knob was turned all the way up. Since the car was heavy and by that stage, very much outdated in the chassis and drivetrain compared to things the RS200s that were coming in, Alamäki needed all of it. You've probably seen the video clips here on youtube from some stadium event, where there's him, Schanche and I think Alén, maybe Kankkunen or Salonen and some other rally drivers and you can really see how much a lumbering handful in the corners that Porsche was compared to the Group B cars. I've seen recent videos of Rosie and it's good that it's stil out there, because people need to experience it to know just how special that period was.
I once read that one of the Privateer cars had a puncture part-way through a stage, when they removed the wheel they found lots of hair wrapped around the Driveshaft. As they untangled it, they realised that there was also a scalp. Whether it is true or not, I can't be sure. But Group B was so mental, you can't say that it definitely DIDN'T happen
God that group b footage is crazy when fans would go onto the track only to just get out of the way at the last second is just mind blowing and can't believe they'd even let them get that close
I think it was that the Audi team manager in '86 that said that the explosion of the S4 happened because the fuel tank was beneath the codriver's seat, which he called it 'plainly stupid design for a rally car'. Cesare Fiorio was basically Enzo Ferrari of WRC.
I was in All Rally of Portugal editions since 1975 till 1986, as a spectator. Those are the days where there where true fans and drivers. We all knew the risks and we dare to defy them every time. It easy now to criticize that era but remember, we had gone from 48 Years of Dictatorship and conscript war service to a full democracy where all was allowed and the freedom we felt with that was worth all the risks. Being a free sport event, The all Country stood to watch the cars, at any place, no matter how dangerous it could be. Sintra at night; watching Sandro Monari lancia Stratos or the fiat 131xford escort rs battles where the most impressive and wonderful memories of a time long gone an d that sadly will never be replicated. But the Group B era, at the same spot, during the Late morning, was where one could feel the danger all where exposed;: cause at night all seems much more vague. And the contests to see who would be the last to get out when a car passed on those roads where really remarkable to All; despite the age or sex ar the danger involved to spectators and drivers alike. All that ended with Joaquim Santos accident, then we did realize the party was over and we needed to get real. Almost 40 Years later i still think that we are all crazy but in a way that only those that lived through a dictatorship and all that come with it and the freedom that was revealed after, can fully understand.
I attended the Shell Welsh Rally in 1985. I witnessed the most dangerous thing at the race. The cars? No. The track? No. My drunk Scottish friends I traveled with from Glasgow….YES! And yes we tried to touch the cars as they went by. (Hey it seemed like a good idea at the time) It was an Audi 1-2 finish. Malcolm Wilson won that day
That’s not conserving it’s so if u find the car and are a medic and u haven’t been told who’s in the car and they can’t tell u who they are u know what blood to give them if they are bleeding out or heavily injured, rally’s happen in the middle of nowhere. Not like f1 where u less than a hour from a hospital that has a brain damaged unit
the radio transmission of, if I remember correctly, another driver calling the fire fighters saying that toivonen car was burning is very very haunting
afaiu it was Bruno Saby that spotted the smoke and actually turned around on the stage! So he was there when the other Lancias arrived and they called the team to tell them about the crash
Once, when asked about Toivonem, Walter Rohrl said "Henri was a little bit crazy. He was fast, and always getting faster. Like a person in a trance. I could never be as fast." (I'm paraphrasing, from memory, but you get the idea.)
Remember going with my dad as a kid to Buxton in the mid 80s to see these beasts. I've never seen anything before or since like them. They were just unbelievable 😳 so so Fast.
I was 15 when this happened,and remember at the time it was announced that it was obvious something big was going to happen,it was getting a bit silly and the writing had been on the wall for a while by then.
there's a video that shows his crash right after he's left the road. but it doesnt show anything that could suggest cause. it does how another lancia stops. but there's nothing they can do other than to wave at the oncoming cars to slow down
Those are blood types on the side of the car. That's an indication that it was known to be so dangerous that it's comparable to soldiers in combat. Soldiers... in combat... have their blood type visible to others because it can be difficult to communicate that information to the surgeon in a lifesaving timeframe. So, in 1986, the assumption these teams were making is that the sport was so dangerous that random people needed to know blood types to communicate to the surgeons. That is abjectly mental...
I really like your stories. Hopefully the younger generation will appreciate them. The old performance cars were fun but the tires, brakes, and suspension wasn't. You flew by the seat of your pants in the old cars. I'm old school but I like the technology of today. Old cars were noisy monsters and hard to handle but fun. I rode a Norton bike and it was noisy and a blast.
Even before this crash, there was a proposed Group S in the works that would have addressed the speed concerns, and taken technology to the next level. The engines would be limited to 300 hp, but the car design was opened up, and minimum number required for homologation was dropped from 200 to 10 or 20. It was going to be a rally version of LeMans prototypes. Several cars were already built, and survive in historic rally events. The Group S concept actually morphed into the World Rally Car rules 10 years later. High quota for road cars, but really all that stays from the road cars is the basic shell and body design. Teams were allowed to add 2L turbocharged engines and 4WD to cars that didn’t have it, and to keeps speeds manageable, horsepower was limited to 300 (in theory).
The simple fact that they felt it necessary to note the driver and navigator's blood groups on the side of the car should probably have been a colossal red flag...
There is a good story written about this same subject in finnish racing magazine called Vauhdin Maailma. It details the crash told by that time finnish rallydrivers and Henris brother Harri. Also it contains more info about possible causes of that crash.
These were the most epic cars to ever drive rally. Nothing can rival the days of group B. Drivers who drove and survived group B were simply on another level, maybe the greatest drivers of all time. 5 years of complete insanity
Group B was insane. Almost in a good way. If you ever doubt how quick the cars were, check out Martin Schanche's Xtrac Escort from period. Lots of footage on YT. It was a weapon.
I was roped in to hold an umbrella over a TV camera on a roadside while a TV crew interviewed Juha Kankunen and he was asked about the end of Group B. He said, "A man can live without 500HP, but its not the same."
A pro rally in 84 or 85 in Tumwater Washington was unbelievable. I'll always remember the acceleration of the turbo Quattros, Lancia etc About the same time I saw the 85 Ford GTP car. Crazy fast!
01:20 Never heard that term, but the most shocking is that at the time, this "technology" was also used in.. the railways. And it was unfortunately a bit more gruesome than racing. 12:05 Even if they managed to make the cars safer, they would have ended up driving Hummers in order to protect them from trees, houses, ravines.. And about the crowd, people watching rally stages are still getting hurt in the 21st century because you can't police a 300km race in the middle of nowhere, imagine a 1000+km Tour de Corse..
I would love to see a return to longer 'marathon' rallies, with the right safety stuff in place. I can't help but see the old footage of the Safari and Ivory Coast rallies and imagine how amazing it would be to see that now
By 1985, Michelle Mouton had stated in effect that if something did go south (in the manner it ultimately did), she would retire; she and most of the drivers had the attitude of "I don't need this shit; racing is dangerous but I'm not suicidal." And for those who are ignorant enough to state that "of course she did, she is a woman (and shouldn't be racing)", she lost the previous year's championship only at the last stage of the last rally (mechanical). Easily the greatest female to ever get clipped into a driver's seat, and arguably one of the greatest drivers in rally - bar none (on par with Roehl, Toivenen, and Blomquist; she had beaten all of them on numerous occasions). She is the ONLY woman to ever be crowned King of the Mountain at the Pikes Peak hillclimb, missing out on doing it back to back due to mechanical difficulties on her first year, all the while driving a closed cockpit car instead of the open wheelers dominating at that time. This was the era where mechanical issues would result in 60 cars start LeMans, and 30 or 40 MAY finish; Indy 500 would start with 33 and finish with 11.
She also won the German Rally Championship in 1986 with Peugeot and announced her retirement immediately thereafter. Though, her sticking it to the Unsers by obliterating the track record and then shutting up Bobby at Pikes Peak the previous year was something truly special.
"severed fingers in the air intake and blood on their stickers". Is there a selective vision disease that somehow makes you over look that hunks of metal flying across the land at over 90mph are dangerous?
For those who did not grow up in this era look up on youtube Rallying the killer years. The difference between Group B and prototypes/F1 was the fact the mega crowds of 100,000 per rally could get on the track rather than behind barriers. While Toivenen is always the flag as the end there were other crashes including Surer in a 200RS which killed his co-driver after Toivenen. The deaths in the crowd really was also a major end to Group B. As a kid this was the golden era of Motorsport, 956 Porsche's, over juiced turbo F1 etc. What we have to day is way safer, but less entertaining. It could still be as safe and way more entertaining, i.e. if we still had high revving V8's and V10's in F1. ironic the WRC cars now are much faster than Group B, but this is all largely down to better suspension/tyres etc.
I wish they would bring back GROUP B. But with todays safety standards. I think it would be absolutely awesome to bring it back and it can be brought back with safety in mind and the drivers I think would also love to be back in GROUP B. Imagine having those car standards today with today’s technology man that would be amazing.
I think the worst thing about this is it was all avoidable fairly easily. Basic rules around car and crowd safety which actually related to the ability of the cars would have been all that was needed. Henri's crash was the final nail but that alone wouldn't have been enough to bin a whole series and would probably have been passed off as a one off due to his previous injuries. The problem was the constant injuries and bad results from crashes - both in the cars and the crowds. Shorter races, real crowd control and cars which could take at least most of the likely crashes would have fixed this and we would have had one of the best series ever. As it was it was ill thought out and went the only way it was ever going to.
Good video ya did there 👍 very informative for sure.. i love how you guys in the uk are so big into rally, its my favorite form of racing 100PERCENT now thats operating yourself and this machine (thats trying its damn'dest at all times to kill you) to its absolute limits ON SNOW,ICE,MUD,SAND,TARMAC,PEOPLE and everything else that'll fit under the car... group b... balls out 80s turbo madness
We need to bring Group B back with remote controlled cars. These guys hadn't even figured out how to compound turbo a 4 cylinder up to 150lbs of boost making 3,000 hp. Let's see that rocket ship!
6th theory: codriver slow notes in fact Henri didnt seems so happy with him in some curves at the tour de corse if you search very closely to all the video of tour de corse 1986
As an aside, the Lancia Delta S4 didn't have any turbo lag, because it was twin-charged. It used both a supercharger and a turbocharger, connected with some clever bypass jiggery-pokery so that the turbo was bypassed at low revs and the supercharger was bypassed at high revs. This is one of the reasons the Delta was so fast. I remember Audi driver Michelle Mouton complaining that the Quattro S1 was hard to drive because of the lag. You'd get nothing accelerating out of a corner until the turbo spooled up; but when it did, it gave a serious up the backside. IIUC, the S1 Quattro developed around 550 bhp.
The fascinating thing about these cars was that the official horse power figures we know today are probably still lower than what these cars put out in reality... Only thing that limited these things were the tyres and brakes... and the turbo lag which modern WRC Prototypes don't have anymore of course ^^
After lot of investigation by finnish fans the theory why he crashed is that the rear right tire failed. The corner before the crash there was a big cut on the inside of the asphalt and judgin by the tire tracks its in my mind the most likely situation. Also the lancia didnt have the floor covers over the car becouse of weight savings so thats why the fuel tanks failed. Henris wife was not given Henris last pay checks and they wanted her to sing a paper where she would agree to not blame lancia for the acsident. The whole situation was covered up pretty fast and lancia got the car or what was left of it outside of the country as fast as they could. We probably will never know what really happened but its for me the most sad moment in finnish motorsport history. Rest in peace Henri.
Also adding to the story Henris brother said that he got intel from a trusted source saying that Henri was out of the car when they went to find the bodies. Its belived that he was trying to get his codriver out of the car but it exploded before he was able to free him.
This crash didn't end it, it was an accumulation of events and this crash...A number of spectators died and Henri was considered one of the best drivers so they had to be seen to do something about it.... Group B was a result of giving engineers carte blanche and seeing what madness they could design. Add to that "Special fuels" and you should know to keep spectators far from the tracks and notice when drivers were to unwell to drive a supercharged and turbocharged maniac of a car....Details, details.....
There is a 7th theory also. Sergio Cresto took a million dollar life insurance just before the race and there where no brake marks on that corner. Bad notes?
I'm not sure about the Corsican, but to add to the insanity of the era some of the rallies (in particular the RAC) were run without the drivers/codrivers performing reconnaissance runs.
I feel they should bring back a Le Mans style start, but safer. 100m sprint race to the cars, and that decides grid position. Everyone gets properly strapped in, then the formation lap, form up, and off they go. It'd make more sense than the F1 sprint race stuff...
The biggest problem with Group B was that the FIA didn't give a crap about anyone's safety. The reason everyone loved it was because it was on of the last parts of motorsports that were virtually untouched by regulations. You could cram an engine wherever you felt like, you didn't need to have a minimum/maximum chassis size, it didn't matter what your power/weight ratio was... it was the last place where you could actually take a car, and as long as you had 200 built, you could do whatever the hell you wanted with it. Sadly, motorsports no longer are interested in the idea of being creative. While safety always needs to remain a priority, it has sadly come at the cost of the freedom to do what you thought would make your car go fast. Obviously there would be exceptions to this, such as no use of nitrous, minimum dimensions for the cockpit, "you can only use harnesses approved by Company", etc., but the fact no one is allowed to cram whatever kind of powerplant they want in the backside of a rally car with an excessively long wheelbase and proclaim "This is a good idea!" is kind of sad.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling Group B was written with GT cars at Le Mans in mind - Ferraris, Porsches, that sort of thing. What was it doing being the ruleset for the WRC in the first place? I've never really understood that.
The Peugeot 205 T16 basically shared nothing with a 205gti road car except some small trim parts, front windscreen etc. it was a bespoke built rally car from the ground up.
The Killer B's. Amazing stories, horrifying drives. I wonder if taming them was realistic. I feel that it would have created a rule book thicker than F-1's.
the FIA never liked the popularity that gp B achieved, being as popular as F1 but with all those millions of spectators not giving the FIA a penny. Look at the WRC now, absolutely pants even though the cars are way quicker. Money motivates the FIA.
I misread the specs. The 205 was a 1.8 but becuase of weight was allowed into the 2-2.5l class.
Y rally?
I was quite surprised to learn it was a 205 GTi châssis. After watching the video, I did some research (read: Wikipedia) and basically some factory modified 200 205 chassis, the racing division moved the engine, replaced some stuff in it (some even were from the parts bin from Citroen) and called it a day.
And as your neighbour noticed, the GTi was a bit dangerous, I can't imagine a 950kg/500hp version. On gravel.
@@aaronaaronsen3360 The engine block was 1,8 diesel if I remember correctly.
@@JkTheMixer I read something like that in my wikisearch I guess it has to do with the diesel engines being sturdier.
My grandpa had a 205 diesel, it was the most boring thing in the world. Hard to imagine it's engine was put in the beast that is the T16.
Correct. It had an XUD7-based block (because they were iron, therefore stronger) but the alloy head was bespoke. It was later productionised for the Citroen BX 16V and Peugeot 405 Mi16. Many Grp B cars were 2.1l, like the BX4TC, but weighed a bit more to compensate.
I have a regular Peugeot 205 (with a 306 gti engine), and have lately visited a guy that is rebulding one of the 200 roadcar 205 T16. I can assure you that a T16 only shares the head & rear-lights, front grill, and front windscreen with a regular 205 or GTi as mentioned in the video. Everything else was bespoke made for the T16. The diffrences are really insane, the T16 was from the ground up designed as a racecar. And just like the Lancia Delta S4, both cars were "for the time" state of the art space frame chassis with very lightweight body's on top that lightly resembled the sillouette of the car they inherited their name from.
I still go through the turn of the Rally Portugal where Joaquim Santos crashed, sends shivers through my spine all the time
Not at the same level, but I was at Silverstone this weekend and repeatedly drove over the spot where Zhou got sent arse over head.
It’s weird to think on that spot something mental happened.
I’d love to be a part of a BBC doc or something that went to these places and talked about these things to see the exact spots for myself.
@@AidanMillward These types of things make us think that in a second everything can change, and that turn in Sintra is one scary MF right now, imagine 40 years ago with the spectactors and 500BHP beasts, scary stuff really
@404 TV I agree with that!!
It says a lot about Group B that modern WRC/GR1 cars are only marginally faster, with the help of ABS, traction control, semi-auto gearboxes and the rest. It says even more that the driver/co-driver's blood type is printed next to their names. It's all gone horribly wrong when you're assuming one or more of those crews is going to need blood transfusions before the event gets started..
rally was faster than group-B in anything but a straight line only a few years after group-B was banned
There’s pictures of senna around this time with his blood type on his suits. It’s all probably on a computer now
@@AidanMillward afaik there's still racing series that require drivers wear dog tags with ID and medical info. I read that the mistaken identity of who was killed in the sidecar crash at the Isle of Man TT was because they had each other tags on
ABS and traction control? What are you on about? WRC has none of those.
@@AmbientMike in the early 2000's they had all the electronic dothats you can imagine; ABS, traction control, electronic clutch, active diffs, paddle shifts,active suspension, GPS controlled ride height...
The main reason for Henry's crash was at the Lancia's team management. The team leader demanded Henry to continue, despite him being totally unfit to drive. His injured neck caused issues throughout the rally, and just before the stage they mangled his neck trying to give "fysio therapy" to leviate the pain, stuffed even more painkillers into him and sent him off. The flu was a symptom of long lasting pain medication destroying his immune system. Lancia killed their star driver with the rally group tailor made for them, all by themselves.
and took 0 responsibility and gave nothing to the widow Toivonen. Absolutely digusting part of this crash and rarely talked about.
Like henri brother said that i bet the gas got stuck in to floor and thats why there is no braking marks. It had happen before with test driver...
You were there?
This is false actually, although Henri was suffering from the flu, and was stressed from the race, he was still eager to take part as he wanted to gain points to reclaim his championship lead. As Lancia had pulled out of Portugal after the crash that killed 3 people, and Toivonen had retired in several rallies in Sweden. Toivonen even while sick was stil leading the whole course by a massive margin and would most likely win the whole event had he not crashed.
Group B can best be summed up as "Build your Frankenstein monster rally car and let rip". 1980s excess taken to Spinal Tap 11 and then ignited with rocket fuel.
You were left with the suspicion that if someone figured out how to build a nuclear powered rally car, the Group B teams would all have jumped on that scary bandwagon.
Group B was as insane as the fans. It took a great deal of skill and courage to navigate through a sea of people all wanting to touch the car as it was driven past at 100mph plus.
A couple of things to note:
1. People close to Lancia during that time have speculated that it was a stuck throttle that led to the crash of Toivonen, as it had happened in testing some four months earlier. I'd say that's highly likely due to the sources, but of course no certain cause can never be identified.
2. The 1986 season was controversial in another way. If someone thinks that 2021 F1 championship decider was controversial, wait until you hear about the WRC crown of 1986.
Yeah, one of Henri’s teammates was disqualified from the San Remo Rally, which he won, in an apparent bid to help Peugeot.
Im from Finland, Toivonen is still a legend and an icon. There was a huge story about him in the news when 30 years was passed since the crash, we remember our heroes.
So many possibilities with this case. Passed out from neck injury issues, passed out from the flu, passed out from general exhaustion, passed out from the fuel fumes (that was common to happen with that car as the fuel tanks were under the seats and because they used special fuels, Markku Alén said about this somewhere), gas pedal possibly went thru floor, brakes may have failed, tyre may have failed, misheard pacenote. Anyway, it's just amazing that rallying wasn't looked after safety-wise despite being way more dangerous for drivers and general public compared to many other racing serieses back in the day.
Balestre banned fuel additives not long after this so there fumes might have been a factor, yeah.
Great post! Thanks
Yes, Fumes from special fuels and gas pedal stucked...according to someone very very near to Henri (cant say who, but not hard to imagine, if i say it's from his family), and someone who was a reporter for a well known Motorsports newspaper, (both talked to me in 1st person), off the Record Lancia team members and unofficial investigations, point to those 2 factors. And
Of course, like Senna true cause, we will never know, because that would also put in check the same people that had by only goal, try to give by all means, the maximum performance to their drivers...and i imagine that theire own guilt by self-consciousness of what happened, is penalty enough!
I remember that 2 of May, as if it was yesterday... probably the most vivid memory and important influence i have related to Motorsport...after all, Group B was that...the Worst and Best times of any era!
PS- My personal passion for Motorsports, and my Journey with Simulation, fortunately gave me the chance of knowing some of these heroes, Salonen, Mikkola, Toivonen, Biasion, Rohrl..Alen, that i had the pleasure of having him in my Simulators...and also a personal friendship with Joaquim Santos... it's a real pleasure to ear those stories told by the protagonists!
I don't think he passed out, he was absolutely flying ahead of the pack and he knew he was ill.....I think he thought that was an advantage rather than a hindernce and tried to go even faster....Only Henri knows....He was a quality driver though.....
That's true, I remember the lombard rally in 85 ish in tatton Park, a Marshall was shouting at everyone to get away from the road , 5 minutes later the Marshall was tied to a tree 😂
I nearly cried when I learnt of this many years ago. They passed on my 2nd birthday, and in such a horrific way. Toivonen is a personal all-time favourite, along with Stefan Bellof. To learn of the circumstances, seeing the limited footage, and hearing the despair over the radio when they realized what had happened. RIP Henri and Sergio, what could have been!!!!
That day was my 22nd birthday. I'll never forget how I felt when I heard about the accident, complete devastation. Henri and Sergio were favourites of mine at the time, and would surely have been world champions at some point if not that year.
I remember my dad showing me group b on old VHS he had them recorded on. Rally is still my favorite form of motorsport.
Then in the US at the time this took place, NASCAR was going 215 mph at Talladega (thanks to Bill Elliot) before the restrictor plates were brought in after Bobby Allison's terrifying crash in 1987 that took out the catch fencing. Before this incident, there were even talks that NASCAR were thinking about allowing turbos in the series (imagine what would have happened if that had actually taken place) This development while reducing the speeds also had the effect of creating "The Big One" at Daytona & Talladega that still happens today due to the cars not being able to spread out on the track.
What I remember were more talks to go to a V6 because V8 were getting more rare at one point... And some were mentioning the Buick V6 turbo 3.8 liter as a possibility to get closer to production engine, but it never went beyond conversations.
But Nascar had ideas for a lot of stuff, like the L R series that never started.
However, a turbo Nascar in the 1980s would also have depended a lot on the specific configurations and regulations. The SCCA was already trying different air intake restrictors for turbo engine back in the 1980s.
Today, a 2.0 liter L4 turbo engine in a racecar could have 230 HP (something near showroom stock) to 2000 HP (a dragster is a racecar and you'd need 85 psi to create such monster).
Assuming a 2.0 liter engine: at 230 HP in a huge Nascar of the time? Talladega would have been a sad joke with nobody passing... At 1000 HP? That would have been suicidal. At 2000 HP? Stupidly, it might have ended up being safe due to the engine self destroying before the green flag...
At 600 HP? That would have been about the same as Nascar back then, but with slight difference due to weight balance and everything.
@@therrydicule the Mercedes AMG 2Litre single turbo engine makes 440BHP and that is fitted in an A-Class.
@@granttaylor8179
I didn't say that 230 horsepower for 2.0 liter turbo was good, only that it is in the realm of possibilities.
I was thinking of things like the Belvedere challenge in Tunisia for the minimum. But than the track is less safe than Goodwood, so they really slow some car down. They also often have like 5 cars at the time on the track for safety reasons.
But that Mercedes engine is very good, though.
@@therrydicule It could have made sense for NASCAR to go turbo V6 for the Cup series and use the same base engine as the Busch series (they were using a naturally aspirated V6).
@@Kylora2112 I think there was a small window where they considered a V6...
But I think they got scared because Buick were doing very well in anything V6 and also considered that the Bush series (not too sure what it was called back than, I think it's Bush, it's now the Xfinity) drivers wanted V8s and were tired of racing Ford Fairmont and Chevy Nova. I think Pontiac had a Ventura at some point...
But maybe they should consider bringing the baby grand back...
So the story I heard about this one, from a Czech guy that was there at the time, is that Cesare Fiorio (Lancia team boss) sent Toivonen out despite not having fresh tires for him. Back then, there were no service parks like we have now, so service was simply some plot of land where you could set up your 2 vans with spare parts and work on the cars next to traffic and spectators. This meant, that if a van with tires lost his way (no GPS, no cellphones even, maybe some basic radio within the team - that's it for the communication!), then nope - no tires available. And those cars chewed up their rubber quite fast.
The rallying in the 80's was so amateur in comparison to today's WRC. I talked a couple of hours to David Llewellin and he told me that when he drove Rally Sweden, his tires would basically be the ones thrown away as "used" by the guys at the front (Blomqvist, Mikkola, Röhrl). So when they had no more spikes left in them, they'd land on Llewellin's car ;) And Llewellin was driving a group B Audi in the top 8!
Calling Group B the Attitude Era of rallying is a great comparison. The most mental period of the sport with the biggest stars where people are still buzzing talking about it today
I still think about Henri Toivonen every now and then and what he could have achieved had he lived just like Stefan Bellof.
Technically it killed off TWO rules etc. Grp B and Grp S. Grp S was an even more insane set of even fast regs due out in 87/88. And there a fleet of stillborn cars for that set of regs that were built.... but never saw true deployment
Dubbing Group B the Attitude Era of rally is such a criminally underrated comparison.
8:46 saying the cars got hot is a massive understatement, Toivonen’s Delta regularly sat at over 50 degrees Celsius during the Corsica rally
that Delta S4 is basically an extremely fast rotisserie oven
When I grew up here in Canada during the 50s/60s I was a rabid F1 fan. I cut up my father's magazines and papered my walls with them. One day, while taking down the photos of yet another lost driver I realized that F1 in those times was, at its core, a blood sport. I took all the photos down and walked away for many years. I came back gradually, as the casualty lists started to shorten, and I'm once again fully committed. I think all types of motor sport owe a great debt to Sir Jackie and his peers. I don't believe that society today would accept the deadliness of motor racing in those days, and it might have gone extinct.
The saddest thing is that things might've happened sooner if some of the high profile deaths hadn't been friends who were trying to help campaign for safety. Like Jochen Rindt's being very critical of Colin Chapman's tendency as he saw it to build cars with no regard for driver safety, which lasted up until he died.
@@n8pls543 yet, Jochen died because he refused to wear his thigh belts and submarined his lap belt fatally. how sad.
I have no idea, since the Tourist Trophy is still a thing and is still taking lives every year..
Trouble is, F1's peak, both for the enthusiast and for those who like sheer technical variety and a largely open design parameter, was the period you mention. Modern F1 is exceedingly dull
Original video was deleted along with my comments. But here is what happened after they disappeared from the WRC
Another excellent piece, thanks Aidan
Rally's loss was Rallycross' gain. All of those fire breathing (literally) monsters turned up from 86 onward. The very clever engineers / drivers developed these cars even further. The European Rallycross championship was shared around via the manufacturers during this period. Olle Arnesson in an S1 Quattro, Seppo Niittymäki (as in your picture) as well as his brother-in-law Matti Alamäki both in T16's. Martin Schanche RS200, Will Gollop in a Metro 6R4 (Bi-Turbo) all developed these to the max. They were all European champions as well. Not forgetting everyone else who raced in Group B. John Welch in his Astra was Opel's mothballed Group B project, Jean-Luc Pailler in Citroen's BX version.
Gollop said he had to wear a full face helmet in the 3.8 normally aspirated 6R4 as the torque was so great, it could give you a blackout if wearing an open face version. He also said he could have run the bi-turbo (engine built by Julian Godfrey from memory that was a 3.0l de-stroked to 2.3l) with 800 BHP weighing 800KG. This was unmanageable so it would produce about 650 BHP. This engine would rev to around 11,000 too!
This was the heyday for Rallycross in my opinion. At Brands Hatch at the only Grand Prix in the sport, you would have 10 of these coming off the line at once, totalling around 8000 BHP collectively, trying to be in the lead at the first corner. Run over 2 days, you could see why it would attract over 80,000 spectators. These cars would get to 60 mph in under 2.5 seconds and to 100 in less than 6. All with manual gear boxes.
Any film makers out there, this era of Rallycross would make an excellent documentary movie, I'm open to be an adviser
I just set it to private rather than fully yeeting it.
There's surprisingly many of those cars still around and some in the guise they ran in the ERC back then, like Gollops twin turbo 6R4. Unfortunately most that survived through 1992 suffered a similar fate to Matti Alamäki's triple championship winning 205T16 E2...or E3, E4 depending on who you ask. After he wrecked it in 1990 it sat, allegedly all the Peugeot Sport special parts bin stuff was taken off and went back into hiding. Someone eventually bought it and restored it with some non-descript 1985 or 86 livery from the cars life in the WRC. Because collectors pay way more for that than a "used rallycross car."
Also, speaking of Alamäki, his eleventy billion horsepower 911 4x4 is still around, IIRC somewhere in Sweden minus the Joest sourced engine.
@@RLRSwansonThanks for the reply. I think Alamäki's Porsche had twin turbos from an Arrows F1 car chucking out over 700 BHP. The blipping of the throttle to avoid turbo lag from Alamäki on the start line was insane!
Pat Doran still has a few RS200's. I was chatting to him at Lydden a few years back. "Rosie" is in retro Rallycross where you can see some replica machinery. Rosie in the hands of Liam is still a very fast car. Seeing as an original group b machine can fetch eye watering sums at auction, it's no wonder the rally versions are being repatriated from rallycross.
@@chrisswain488 From what I know, the 3.2l engine that was in the car in , I think 1984 and 85 was a 935 unit he bought from Joest and that one made 750 DIN horsepower, at least in published numbers, but who knows what the actual numbers were, because they had so many problems with the car in 1984. However, it's probably safe to say Murray wasn't being hyperbolic in his commentary then :) I've heard that by 1986 the car had way more power on tap than they could use, like well over 950 if the boost knob was turned all the way up. Since the car was heavy and by that stage, very much outdated in the chassis and drivetrain compared to things the RS200s that were coming in, Alamäki needed all of it. You've probably seen the video clips here on youtube from some stadium event, where there's him, Schanche and I think Alén, maybe Kankkunen or Salonen and some other rally drivers and you can really see how much a lumbering handful in the corners that Porsche was compared to the Group B cars.
I've seen recent videos of Rosie and it's good that it's stil out there, because people need to experience it to know just how special that period was.
There's a great documentary on Daily motion about Group B called Madness on Wheels. It's one of the best on the subject I've ever seen.
I had forgotten they put driver and navigator blood types on outside of car, I think Jackie Stewart put his blood type on overalls.
Senna as well.
Was that done a protest against the lack of safety in the sport, or purely as a matter of practicality?
I once read that one of the Privateer cars had a puncture part-way through a stage, when they removed the wheel they found lots of hair wrapped around the Driveshaft. As they untangled it, they realised that there was also a scalp.
Whether it is true or not, I can't be sure. But Group B was so mental, you can't say that it definitely DIDN'T happen
God that group b footage is crazy when fans would go onto the track only to just get out of the way at the last second is just mind blowing and can't believe they'd even let them get that close
I think it was that the Audi team manager in '86 that said that the explosion of the S4 happened because the fuel tank was beneath the codriver's seat, which he called it 'plainly stupid design for a rally car'. Cesare Fiorio was basically Enzo Ferrari of WRC.
I think I detect a pattern in this slander.
This was excellent Aidan. Throughly enjoyed it mate, great video.
Henri Toivonen was a wild talent, a bit like Gilles Villeneuve or Stefan Bellof.
So the Holy Trinity of Go Crazy?
And all dead maybe that’s not the ideal approach to racing
And all dead maybe that’s not the ideal approach to racing
And all dead maybe that’s not the ideal approach to racing
@@bam_henry Holy Trinity of Premature Death Talented driver
I was in All Rally of Portugal editions since 1975 till 1986, as a spectator.
Those are the days where there where true fans and drivers. We all knew the risks and we dare to defy them every time.
It easy now to criticize that era but remember, we had gone from 48 Years of Dictatorship and conscript war service to a full democracy where all was allowed and the freedom we felt with that was worth all the risks.
Being a free sport event, The all Country stood to watch the cars, at any place, no matter how dangerous it could be.
Sintra at night; watching Sandro Monari lancia Stratos or the fiat 131xford escort rs battles where the most impressive and wonderful memories of a time long gone an d that sadly will never be replicated.
But the Group B era, at the same spot, during the Late morning, was where one could feel the danger all where exposed;: cause at night all seems much more vague.
And the contests to see who would be the last to get out when a car passed on those roads where really remarkable to All; despite the age or sex ar the danger involved to spectators and drivers alike.
All that ended with Joaquim Santos accident, then we did realize the party was over and we needed to get real.
Almost 40 Years later i still think that we are all crazy but in a way that only those that lived through a dictatorship and all that come with it and the freedom that was revealed after, can fully understand.
Sergio the best American/Italian rally co-driver or driver us in the USA have ever gotten.
R.I.P. HENRI & SERGIO absolute legends
I attended the Shell Welsh Rally in 1985. I witnessed the most dangerous thing at the race. The cars? No. The track? No. My drunk Scottish friends I traveled with from Glasgow….YES! And yes we tried to touch the cars as they went by. (Hey it seemed like a good idea at the time) It was an Audi 1-2 finish. Malcolm Wilson won that day
12:05 The fact that they list the driver’s blood type on the side of the actual car is EXTREMELY concerning
That’s not conserving it’s so if u find the car and are a medic and u haven’t been told who’s in the car and they can’t tell u who they are u know what blood to give them if they are bleeding out or heavily injured, rally’s happen in the middle of nowhere. Not like f1 where u less than a hour from a hospital that has a brain damaged unit
Gotta hand it to you: your pronunciation of Toivonen is weirdly spot on.
the radio transmission of, if I remember correctly, another driver calling the fire fighters saying that toivonen car was burning is very very haunting
Yess, it was Tiziano Siviero, navigator of Miki Biasion. That radio recording is horrible……
afaiu it was Bruno Saby that spotted the smoke and actually turned around on the stage! So he was there when the other Lancias arrived and they called the team to tell them about the crash
We all know this story but it was refreshing seeing some details you presented to us (and the presentation/narrative as well). Great great video!
Once, when asked about Toivonem, Walter Rohrl said "Henri was a little bit crazy. He was fast, and always getting faster. Like a person in a trance. I could never be as fast." (I'm paraphrasing, from memory, but you get the idea.)
Kodos to you that you have re-uploaded the video with the adaptation of the Safari rally.
Remember going with my dad as a kid to Buxton in the mid 80s to see these beasts. I've never seen anything before or since like them. They were just unbelievable 😳 so so
Fast.
I was 15 when this happened,and remember at the time it was announced that it was obvious something big was going to happen,it was getting a bit silly and the writing had been on the wall for a while by then.
there's a video that shows his crash right after he's left the road. but it doesnt show anything that could suggest cause. it does how another lancia stops. but there's nothing they can do other than to wave at the oncoming cars to slow down
I’m a simple man. I see Aidan post a video, I watch it and like it.
As dangerous as it was. It was a pleasure to watch. On the edge 100% of the time. There will never be anything like it.
I was looking for a video about this yesterday and you delivered. Thank you Aidan!
Those are blood types on the side of the car. That's an indication that it was known to be so dangerous that it's comparable to soldiers in combat. Soldiers... in combat... have their blood type visible to others because it can be difficult to communicate that information to the surgeon in a lifesaving timeframe. So, in 1986, the assumption these teams were making is that the sport was so dangerous that random people needed to know blood types to communicate to the surgeons. That is abjectly mental...
I really like your stories. Hopefully the younger generation will appreciate them. The old performance cars were fun but the tires, brakes, and suspension wasn't. You flew by the seat of your pants in the old cars. I'm old school but I like the technology of today. Old cars were noisy monsters and hard to handle but fun. I rode a Norton bike and it was noisy and a blast.
Even before this crash, there was a proposed Group S in the works that would have addressed the speed concerns, and taken technology to the next level. The engines would be limited to 300 hp, but the car design was opened up, and minimum number required for homologation was dropped from 200 to 10 or 20. It was going to be a rally version of LeMans prototypes. Several cars were already built, and survive in historic rally events.
The Group S concept actually morphed into the World Rally Car rules 10 years later. High quota for road cars, but really all that stays from the road cars is the basic shell and body design. Teams were allowed to add 2L turbocharged engines and 4WD to cars that didn’t have it, and to keeps speeds manageable, horsepower was limited to 300 (in theory).
The woeful BX 4TC mentioned in the same breath as the 205 T16 and RS200?! Nice one man, that made me chuckle. Great video as always.
There is a documentary about Group B called I think, Death on 4 Wheels, (it has other titles as well) If you can find it.
The simple fact that they felt it necessary to note the driver and navigator's blood groups on the side of the car should probably have been a colossal red flag...
There is a good story written about this same subject in finnish racing magazine called Vauhdin Maailma. It details the crash told by that time finnish rallydrivers and Henris brother Harri. Also it contains more info about possible causes of that crash.
I was waiting eagerly for you to do a video about this! Loved it!
Aye, the 80s... The decade of speed, excess, decadence and bonkers technological exploration.
If you survived it you weren’t there, as they say.
These were the most epic cars to ever drive rally. Nothing can rival the days of group B. Drivers who drove and survived group B were simply on another level, maybe the greatest drivers of all time. 5 years of complete insanity
Group B was insane. Almost in a good way. If you ever doubt how quick the cars were, check out Martin Schanche's Xtrac Escort from period. Lots of footage on YT. It was a weapon.
That 1985 car in the photos dominated the RAC rally that year; Tony Pond finished an excellent third in the debut of the Metro 6R4
I was roped in to hold an umbrella over a TV camera on a roadside while a TV crew interviewed Juha Kankunen and he was asked about the end of Group B. He said, "A man can live without 500HP, but its not the same."
Loved this video, loving the coverage as of late
Woohoo, get to watch it again :D
A pro rally in 84 or 85 in Tumwater Washington was unbelievable. I'll always remember the acceleration of the turbo Quattros, Lancia etc
About the same time I saw the 85 Ford GTP car. Crazy fast!
01:20 Never heard that term, but the most shocking is that at the time, this "technology" was also used in.. the railways. And it was unfortunately a bit more gruesome than racing.
12:05 Even if they managed to make the cars safer, they would have ended up driving Hummers in order to protect them from trees, houses, ravines..
And about the crowd, people watching rally stages are still getting hurt in the 21st century because you can't police a 300km race in the middle of nowhere, imagine a 1000+km Tour de Corse..
"Power to Weight Ratio: Yes"
That about sums it up.
I would love to see a return to longer 'marathon' rallies, with the right safety stuff in place. I can't help but see the old footage of the Safari and Ivory Coast rallies and imagine how amazing it would be to see that now
By 1985, Michelle Mouton had stated in effect that if something did go south (in the manner it ultimately did), she would retire; she and most of the drivers had the attitude of "I don't need this shit; racing is dangerous but I'm not suicidal." And for those who are ignorant enough to state that "of course she did, she is a woman (and shouldn't be racing)", she lost the previous year's championship only at the last stage of the last rally (mechanical). Easily the greatest female to ever get clipped into a driver's seat, and arguably one of the greatest drivers in rally - bar none (on par with Roehl, Toivenen, and Blomquist; she had beaten all of them on numerous occasions). She is the ONLY woman to ever be crowned King of the Mountain at the Pikes Peak hillclimb, missing out on doing it back to back due to mechanical difficulties on her first year, all the while driving a closed cockpit car instead of the open wheelers dominating at that time. This was the era where mechanical issues would result in 60 cars start LeMans, and 30 or 40 MAY finish; Indy 500 would start with 33 and finish with 11.
She also won the German Rally Championship in 1986 with Peugeot and announced her retirement immediately thereafter. Though, her sticking it to the Unsers by obliterating the track record and then shutting up Bobby at Pikes Peak the previous year was something truly special.
That’s what people don’t realise about Jackie and that lot. Yeah, it’s dangerous but I’m basically killing myself
"severed fingers in the air intake and blood on their stickers". Is there a selective vision disease that somehow makes you over look that hunks of metal flying across the land at over 90mph are dangerous?
BTW that rally course is still run in "Rallye das Camélias" part of the portuguese rally championship and almost everyone slowsdown in that corner
The B-group Lancia Delta had so weak construction that almost every accident was a potential fatal crash.
Lol "Power to weight ratio: Yes!" almost made me die of laughter...
Group B stories are only just in second place to BTCC stories. More of both 🙏
For those who did not grow up in this era look up on youtube Rallying the killer years. The difference between Group B and prototypes/F1 was the fact the mega crowds of 100,000 per rally could get on the track rather than behind barriers. While Toivenen is always the flag as the end there were other crashes including Surer in a 200RS which killed his co-driver after Toivenen. The deaths in the crowd really was also a major end to Group B. As a kid this was the golden era of Motorsport, 956 Porsche's, over juiced turbo F1 etc. What we have to day is way safer, but less entertaining. It could still be as safe and way more entertaining, i.e. if we still had high revving V8's and V10's in F1. ironic the WRC cars now are much faster than Group B, but this is all largely down to better suspension/tyres etc.
My dad always tells me how many those 205s was wrapped round lampposts was insane
I’d say Tovinone is more Rindt than Clark, Rohl said he pushed too hard, which is how a younger Rindt was
11:05 there were very faint skid marks at the scene of the crash, Henri did make an attempt at avoiding the crash.
You saw them yourself then?
@@runlarryrun77 They are in the photographs from the crash scene.
I wish they would bring back GROUP B. But with todays safety standards. I think it would be absolutely awesome to bring it back and it can be brought back with safety in mind and the drivers I think would also love to be back in GROUP B. Imagine having those car standards today with today’s technology man that would be amazing.
No thanks
Agree but it was incredibly exciting. I was addicted to viewing it.
Good documentary, thanks!
I think the worst thing about this is it was all avoidable fairly easily. Basic rules around car and crowd safety which actually related to the ability of the cars would have been all that was needed.
Henri's crash was the final nail but that alone wouldn't have been enough to bin a whole series and would probably have been passed off as a one off due to his previous injuries. The problem was the constant injuries and bad results from crashes - both in the cars and the crowds.
Shorter races, real crowd control and cars which could take at least most of the likely crashes would have fixed this and we would have had one of the best series ever.
As it was it was ill thought out and went the only way it was ever going to.
Good video ya did there 👍 very informative for sure.. i love how you guys in the uk are so big into rally, its my favorite form of racing 100PERCENT now thats operating yourself and this machine (thats trying its damn'dest at all times to kill you) to its absolute limits ON SNOW,ICE,MUD,SAND,TARMAC,PEOPLE and everything else that'll fit under the car... group b... balls out 80s turbo madness
Also, there are some hearsays that the chassis had inside gasoline, and even the chassis had parts of magnesium
We need to bring Group B back with remote controlled cars. These guys hadn't even figured out how to compound turbo a 4 cylinder up to 150lbs of boost making 3,000 hp. Let's see that rocket ship!
6th theory: codriver slow notes in fact Henri didnt seems so happy with him in some curves at the tour de corse if you search very closely to all the video of tour de corse 1986
Very well done, thanks!
2:51 - I get up to heaven: “I AM GETTING A AUDI QUATTRO” sponsernd by “CAMEL CIGARETTES”!!!!!
As an aside, the Lancia Delta S4 didn't have any turbo lag, because it was twin-charged. It used both a supercharger and a turbocharger, connected with some clever bypass jiggery-pokery so that the turbo was bypassed at low revs and the supercharger was bypassed at high revs. This is one of the reasons the Delta was so fast.
I remember Audi driver Michelle Mouton complaining that the Quattro S1 was hard to drive because of the lag. You'd get nothing accelerating out of a corner until the turbo spooled up; but when it did, it gave a serious up the backside. IIUC, the S1 Quattro developed around 550 bhp.
The fascinating thing about these cars was that the official horse power figures we know today are probably still lower than what these cars put out in reality...
Only thing that limited these things were the tyres and brakes... and the turbo lag which modern WRC Prototypes don't have anymore of course ^^
After lot of investigation by finnish fans the theory why he crashed is that the rear right tire failed. The corner before the crash there was a big cut on the inside of the asphalt and judgin by the tire tracks its in my mind the most likely situation. Also the lancia didnt have the floor covers over the car becouse of weight savings so thats why the fuel tanks failed. Henris wife was not given Henris last pay checks and they wanted her to sing a paper where she would agree to not blame lancia for the acsident. The whole situation was covered up pretty fast and lancia got the car or what was left of it outside of the country as fast as they could. We probably will never know what really happened but its for me the most sad moment in finnish motorsport history. Rest in peace Henri.
Also adding to the story Henris brother said that he got intel from a trusted source saying that Henri was out of the car when they went to find the bodies. Its belived that he was trying to get his codriver out of the car but it exploded before he was able to free him.
"Breakdancing in a rally car"... Amazing!
This crash didn't end it, it was an accumulation of events and this crash...A number of spectators died and Henri was considered one of the best drivers so they had to be seen to do something about it.... Group B was a result of giving engineers carte blanche and seeing what madness they could design. Add to that "Special fuels" and you should know to keep spectators far from the tracks and notice when drivers were to unwell to drive a supercharged and turbocharged maniac of a car....Details, details.....
There is a 7th theory also. Sergio Cresto took a million dollar life insurance just before the race and there where no brake marks on that corner. Bad notes?
I'm not sure about the Corsican, but to add to the insanity of the era some of the rallies (in particular the RAC) were run without the drivers/codrivers performing reconnaissance runs.
I feel they should bring back a Le Mans style start, but safer.
100m sprint race to the cars, and that decides grid position. Everyone gets properly strapped in, then the formation lap, form up, and off they go.
It'd make more sense than the F1 sprint race stuff...
Love it, the Gti as a streetcar would be mental 😂
Group B rally is by far the best we’ve ever seen.
The biggest problem with Group B was that the FIA didn't give a crap about anyone's safety. The reason everyone loved it was because it was on of the last parts of motorsports that were virtually untouched by regulations. You could cram an engine wherever you felt like, you didn't need to have a minimum/maximum chassis size, it didn't matter what your power/weight ratio was... it was the last place where you could actually take a car, and as long as you had 200 built, you could do whatever the hell you wanted with it. Sadly, motorsports no longer are interested in the idea of being creative. While safety always needs to remain a priority, it has sadly come at the cost of the freedom to do what you thought would make your car go fast. Obviously there would be exceptions to this, such as no use of nitrous, minimum dimensions for the cockpit, "you can only use harnesses approved by Company", etc., but the fact no one is allowed to cram whatever kind of powerplant they want in the backside of a rally car with an excessively long wheelbase and proclaim "This is a good idea!" is kind of sad.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling Group B was written with GT cars at Le Mans in mind - Ferraris, Porsches, that sort of thing. What was it doing being the ruleset for the WRC in the first place? I've never really understood that.
The Peugeot 205 T16 basically shared nothing with a 205gti road car except some small trim parts, front windscreen etc. it was a bespoke built rally car from the ground up.
The Killer B's. Amazing stories, horrifying drives.
I wonder if taming them was realistic. I feel that it would have created a rule book thicker than F-1's.
the FIA never liked the popularity that gp B achieved, being as popular as F1 but with all those millions of spectators not giving the FIA a penny. Look at the WRC now, absolutely pants even though the cars are way quicker. Money motivates the FIA.
group B was amazing. ATM you need proper cohones for Rally, like you needed in F1 50 years ago. but in Group B era? I can’t even imagine.
That McLaren Merch is just perfect!
"Power to weight ratio: YES"
I laughed.