HOT WATER HEATING: How to Use a Tank-Style Water Heater
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
- The right kind of tank-style water heater makes a great source of heat for any kind of hot water space heating system. Simple, economical, easy to maintain and reliable. Check out this detailed technical tutorial on how to make it happen.
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I bought this water heater ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx8G49mV71sAzUl9shXyLW-r3XgHH9EVh1 for use in my bus conversion. I installed it under my kitchen sink and it is fed by a high efficiency on-demand LP water heater. It is both a backup hot water source as well as a water saving device since we have hot water on demand rather than having to wait for the gas on demand water heater to finish its ignition cycle. I decided on this water heater due to the fact that it only draws 1300watts when it's ON instead of the 1500 watts that most Water heaters this size draw. In an RV a couple hundred watts can be a big deal. With very low standby losses, I don't have to worry about excessive power consumption. When propane is not available for our gas water heater, in conjunction with our low flow shower head there is enough hot water available to shower, albeit we won't be taking "hotel showers." Also very happy with the recovery rate of this water heater. Granted, it is quite small, but it does exactly what we need it to do.
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
I've been plumbing 4 20 years and have done everything from residential to 30 million dollar plumbing/mechanical projects. That has involved solar, geothermal, boilers and hydronic systems. Great job on your understanding of the system 👏 best video so fair.
I’m the best in the world. Good job on the video
Valves Valves Valves ! Your layout is vey well done and from a engineering standpoint is excellent . being able to turn off a valve or two to isolate a part makes things like this so much less complicated. I use to design equipment and the parts manage would always get mad because I used so many valves. But no one complained when we had to fix something.
We love the heat exchange version with two separate loops and are planning to do this in our earth sheltered home build this summer. We are posting a video today and we hope you are ok that we linked to this and shared a picture with your channel info on what we are hoping to do. We actually have a question about how many btu's we would actually need for our application. Thanks so much for a great informative video! ~Kathie
This was such a wonderful explanation, thank you! So many U.S. plumbers don't seem to know anything about these simple systems, and manufacturers don't make it easy to find models with the hydronic/recirculating loops on their web sites. If you have a condo in which one of these was built in like we do, you really don't have any other option. This video helped with a pointer to the AO Smith Polaris model as well, which is a good brand and helped us in our research.
I have had a thought regarding this type of system. What about a connection from the incoming cold water line to the line going to the in-floor or radiator system? In the winter, you can operate the system just as you show in your video. In the summer, you could shut off the line going to the bottom of the water heater on the left side, and shut off the hot water line right at the upper right exit on the water heater, and open the bypass line to direct cold water to the in floor loops first. This would cause the cold water to circulate through the home before entering the water heater at the lower right side. You would not only keep continuous flow in your system, but the could be some added benefit from the cool water flowing through the house. If you think this type of setup might work, my only question would be in regard to the placement of the overflow tank. You might possible need to install a second one after the circulator pump for pressure control in the cooling season. In that case the by-pass connection could go before the tank on the left side of the setup. What are your thoughts on this idea?
That lesson was very well done. It was clear, concise, the important points were reinforced and best of all (and this is how you know it’s a winner) I could easily understand every step of the process.
Kudos and thank you. That was a joy.
If your using this type of system , I would recommend a tank capacity larger than you need & hook up solar panels as well. Can heat your home for the cost of running a small pump
I like the simple system. This looks like it will work for my house. My domestic water heater is a tankless unit, and I want it completely separate from the hydronic system. No worries about excess mineral deposits, cross-contamination, etc. esp since the "water" in the radiators will be anti-freeze, not plain water.
Thanks brother, very helpful, I’m a retired builder going to build a small cottage in New Mexico so this worked out perfectly for that.
Great video! Answered several of my questions. With the simple system, tank to heat exchanger, this would be the higher pressured system like was discussed in the last part of the video. Gives me something to go with! Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Im building a system similar to your described with a heat exchanger. Great tip on valves to allow flushing and cleaning of the exchanger
What an amazing video. I found out that our house is on that simple system, but it seems that is frowned upon now since they built the house in 2006 in Alberta. I talked with a good plumber and it looks like we are going with a heat exchanger setup like this. Such a helpful video. Thank you!
Thanks for your kind words! I'm glad my video was of use to you. Bye for now, Steve
Nice vid guy! I’m showing this to my wife to help explain my own system. FYI I’m using separate heat on demand systems. With wood boiler tie ins Plus use a un-insulated holding tank for well water to reduce size on heater needs. It’s much easer to heat room temp water than ground temp water. Again nice learning vid
Hey Dan, I'm trying to figure out how to merge an outdoor wood boiler with my already installed on demand propane boiler with baseboard heat. Is this similar to what you did?
Thanks for the video. This would be a good backup system for an outdoor wood boiler (OWB). The OWB's heated water would run thru a heat exchanger at the cold water inlet, heating the water before it enters the Polaris. When the OWB is providing heat, the Polaris wouldn't need to run, but would still provide hot tap water and house heat. When the OWB isn't providing heat, the Polaris would turn on and heat the domestic tap water along with the house.
When I saw the cold line connected to the hydronic loop, I thought maybe you were going to show how hydronic cooling could be done through the same system during the hot months; running cold municipal water through floors and radiators to cool the house while also pre-warming the water feeding the water heater and reducing its energy use.
That is a solid idea, even if your "cooling" system only worked when DHW was used. To your point, preheating the makeup water is a nice bonus. I guess the circulators could be run to even out the cooling, would take some trial and error to figure out the control that works best.
That. Would not supply enough cooling capacity.
@@ronlafever8233 Right, our water is held in tanks in my area. In the spring the water is cold but it warms up as the season gets warmer. And radiators dont have fans so even if you could get them cold enough it wouldnt do much.
Best video on the subject I have found! If iIwant to only run the "Simple" space heating side with a closed loop (no tie-in to domestic water) do I need an expansion tank? If so, where would be best to install it? Thank you very much.
Very good! I currently have a wood burner that handleas all heating needs in winter. I like how simple this is but I have the benefit of my house running on solar so I am looking at similar design using electric hot water tank
Did you ever do it? Was your electric bill very high?
Awesome explanation. Thanks
Thank you SOOOOOOO much! Great Video and spot on presentation very well explained! This is what i have been trying to figure out for my own home in upstate NY God Bless
Awesome tutorial!!! Thanks!!! 😃👍
Question if possible please ... Could I do this kind of system when there are only 3 outlets on the boiler. A hot, cold and PRV. All side fixed to the cylinder. Looking to use the plate heat exchange and the pumps to circulate the water. Thanks for any information you can give.
Also this is a very good explanation of the system best video I've found 😊
Just use it for greenhouse, set to go on once or twice an hour. That would insulate ground cover with rocks, Then Run the brass pipes thru about 6" to a foot of rocks, The rocks will keep raised beds warm without harming the root system.
Amazing! This is the best explanation ever. Thank you!
A small note when using a system over 30psi. Obviously you’ll need a higher pressure relief valve. Here’s where that’s tricky. If it’s used in a commercial building at all your insurance company will inspect it or a local or state official will usually inspect. Any relief valve over 30psi on a commercial system requires an ASME expansion tank which is really expensive. The pressure tank has to be rated for 5x the relief valve pressure. And odd law that often comes up on commercial jobs.
That was fantastic information. Thanks for taking the time to explain the different methods and pros and cons. Well done
Thank you, so clear and complete!
THANK YOU. As stated in a comment below there are some 'short-comings', BUT with a couple mods, this is a great system.
What are the short comings
Very well explained kept it simple because it’s a simple system you use simple terms that even somebody not in the industry can understand 👍
Thank you , very well put together, well thought out and planned video, learned much, thanks for sharing your knowledge. You made it so simple.
And yes most of house hydronic systems runs at 30psi max , because boilers comes equipped with a 30psi ( max pressure) pressure relief valve. Though boiler and hydronic loop components ( pipes, fittings, pumps) are rated for much higher than that..If a small residential building has 4 floor ( above ground), and boiler is located on basement level ( old typical install), a 30 psi water heating pressure will starve most of the farthest and highest point of consum ( radiators) în some apartments. Thus new wster heating pressure must be carefully choosen ( calculated) to assure the highest radiator in heating loop will be provided with a positive heating water pressure of min 5 psi .
How about using a high efficiency tankless heater with the plate exchange system?
I have done that system before you should put a solenoid in to keep hot water from back they're from back feeding when the pump is off up into the radiators it does do that I would suggest if I do it again I'm gonna use a heat exchanger with guy call in the heating section a I think it would work better you have to have a second circulating pump Less than a $100
You can eliminate the timer, some thermostat has built in pump protection function it will call pump once a day.
The pump exercising function is unlikely to run the pump long enough to safely prevent Legionella growth, which is the major danger of an open system. Best not to use an open system at all.
You forgot to mention couple of " small" details...
The tank used in your presentation use same water for domestic use same as space heating use..which means all hydronic components HAS TO BE of nonferrous material, bronze pump and brass fittings!
Actually, the Polaris has two independent water circuits that do not share water.
Very good explanation.
Thank you!
Have a system a bit similar to this and that works really well.
Do you use it for your home or a shop etc? If for a small home does it work well?
For my home 26feetx28 @@NotTelling51
Old news, but good news.
Nice vid.
Could u design me a radiant system ?
Brilliant!
Drop by my website baileylineroad.com for a visit sometime. You'll find lots of stuff there, including tool giveaways, articles and lots of other stuff of interest to hands-on, how-to people.
Bye for now and thanks for watching!
Steve
Thanks for the video, simplified diagram and the info about water heater capability was just what I needed.
How many options are out there for hot water heaters that have a domestic water output, and a separate radiant input and output
You need a zone valve to actuate the motor.
Ive been in hvac industrt for 10 years . I have never seen this application. But great vid
I'll bet you never saw a Honda Civic radiator installed in an insulated box in the return air duct to the gas furnace. The air filters installed in a vee have 6 times the area of the original filter. And yes, there is a fiberglass drain pan and hose under the radiator in case of leak. The radiator sits at an angle so the box doesn't need to be so wide.
What about two separate hot water heaters. One for domestic and the other for the heating system. I currently have a hot water heater for my water and a boiler for the baseboard heating. I'm in Pennsylvania
What are your thoughts on a Heat Pump water heater in this application? We have one for DHW and LOVE its 300% efficiency. With an energy monitor on the entire house, our water heating cost is less than $5/month! Yes, the unit was $1700, but ROI is coming at us quick. Even faster if I can use it to warm the floor, while the central Heat Pump warms the Air as it does currently. Our floor piping is installed, ready to start the rest of the radiant system but trying to decide heat source using existing tank with a Taco pump block heat exchanger or add a dedicated Heat pump water heater.
In reference to the second method, is there any downside to running the hot line output from the bottom (side port) of the hot water tank and then having the cold return at the top(side port) of the tank?
Could you also install some bypass valves to reduce the flow by bypassing the water tank itself? Im referring to the off season, to reduce stagnation.
Absolutely, Paul! That's a great point. I should have mentioned that in the video.
Thanks for watching my videos!
Steve
Kevin R the thermostat opens the zone valve.the zone valve has a built in n.o relay that starts the pump.
Hey Steve, been following you for years. Really appreciate all of your videos, have learned a lot! I have the Polaris for domestic/in floor heat source as well. Used as backup to my wood boiler as I believe you have too. Do you not find the Polaris short cycles constantly during radiant heat usage? Trying to figure out how to wire in a relay and resistor, or a set point controller to open up the tight temp differential..
How,hot will the water get. In NY hydronic is 180 degrees
exactly the temp is only good for infloor heat
I need to know what size id need for a tankless....
There's small, 2.5/3gal tankless water heaters. But it's that big enough for ~700sqft, 3 loops?
very good knowledge
You wouldn't want to circulate heat on a 90-degree day, so the first one sucks. Ditch the heat exchanger as they get clogged and need replaced and add an indirect hot water tank in its place.
How do you drain the tank, as recommended by water heater manufacturers?
This definitely would work, but electric water heaters can produce only a little over 15,000 bthu. That limits the application to a few rooms or an extremely small house.
We live in Colorado so when the temps dip to minus, our exhaust pipe outside builds up with ice causing the system to stop working. We then have no heat. We thought we fixed this problem by removing a screen on the outside. Still happens. No heat today at -12. We have to go outside and break off the accumulated ice, wait for the water heater to regenerate before we can get heat again. Do you have any suggestions to fix this problem?
Couldn't the hydronic system be drained during the off season to prevent stagnation? That way you wont heat the house unnecessarily.
Hi is it possible to use this system with an electric Tank as opposed to a gas or propane tank? Thank you.
Thank you so much for the wonderful video and clear explanations!
Great video. Thank you
Can you use a Rheem High Efficiency Electric Water heater for this?
Thanks but I have a question, I noticed there is no air valve in either of the space heating systems. How do you blead off trapper air from the system? Ahh the more complex system handles that. Got it. But in the less complex system just add a vent in a convenient high spot...
Be nice to have an accurate parts list with model numbers
Thank you for this content! Great diagrams and easy to understand format
Thanks for the video. Good explanation.
Can this work where more than one zone is needed?
Great video. Answered questions.
can you use this for a radiant floor heating.....
What about a mixing valve for the hot water going to the faucets to keep the water temp around 110 so you don’t get scalded ?
What is the water temp in the tank?
excellent video,, every thing I wanted to know,, thanks
Ty for sharing your knowledge 1st video I found when searching
can this system run standard cast iron radiators?
Can you send me diagram of the heat exchanger version
Would this be feasible with an electric water heater or electric heat pump type water heater? Thank you.
I have been thinking of this concept and wasnt sure if it is already out there until I saw this video. Thanks for putting this out. Do you have one that covers the set up on radiator side. Can this work in a forced air system?
Is the hydronic loop for the baseboard heating a closed loop inside the water tank. Meaning that it's not mixing with the potable water circuit of the tank. Or is it open looped. And does that matter like within a boiler. I ask because I'm curious if I use a high efficiency hybrid water tank to heat a small garage 12 x 18 and also for the potable water of the house itself if that can be done without issues.
A third version is to simply have a smaller dedicated water heater (like 15 or 20 gallons) just for the hydronic system. You can turn it off completely during the off season. Plus it doesn’t tap heat off your domestic water system.
Thank you for this video. I recently upgraded an open system with a DHW heater (that I was using to heat our basement slab) to a closed system using this video as a guide. I found a used Polaris unit on kijiji for $700! (score). It was my first time working with the threaded pipe - the learning curve involved proper joint sealing and tightening (I used both tape and brush-on sealant in the end) as well as union placement. It took longer than I anticipated but we are now warm and now have the option of running heating loops to the upper floor of our home (a bastardized 1905 log cabin structure in downtown Sudbury). Two questions . . . 1. should there be a relief valve on the space heating side? 2. Is it common for pressure to increase? It has crept up from 12psi (set at install) to 14.5 psi a couple of weeks later.
Yes, you need a relief valve any time you heat water in a closed system (not open to the atmosphere). Relief valves prevent things blowing up due to escalating pressure.
Nice presentation but did not see a pressure reducing valve on the heat exchanger scheme.
Great video, appreciated
Can we also encooperate with hot water taps? Bathroom and kitchen?
Do you have a recommendation on companies to use for DIY applications?
THANK YOU for thus video, Thus us what I want to do fir my home , The companys I spoke with say I cant do this, And also quoted me $18,000 bucks CAN to repkace my oil boiler. RIP OFF peopke.
Can you use a On Demand Water Heater for this simple application?
Is this tank much more expensive than a regular one. My old house has 1 heat vent at stairs landing upstairs . I thought this would be a good way to heat those upstairs bedrooms
I paid $2,400 US for a 100,000 btu Polaris in 2013. Still works great.
Steve that was excellent. I'm about to install a 50 gallons Polaris in my beach house and I was wondering if the use of a heat exchanger was mandatory. The 10 minutes flow per day is a very simple solution that's going to save me a lot of money.
Thank you from Santiago de Chile.
OMG! The 10 m9nute flow is only during the off season to exchange the water to keep bacteria growth to a minimum. During the heating season, it may run for hours!
Great job!!!
Question:
My boiler in my shop packed it in. There’s no domestic water there, or needed. I have a hot water tank that I’d like to use. This regular tank would be heating about 1000sq ft.
Would a regular hot water tank work???
Thanks!
I've been thinking for 2 years now, to do an "in-wall" heating system with a water tank.
There are 3 reasons why I want to do it.
1st it seems more healthy. Furnace heating tends to make the house more dusty.
2nd in flower heating seems more comfortable.
and 3rd, I'm pretty sure it spends less gas than a furnace, but I'm not sure.
I was thinking of buying a 2nd water tank heater and running separately in a close loop. Do you think I shouldn't do it in a separate unit?
Do you think I can run 2 loops (basement and main floor) on one tank? ( each floor is about 900sqf)
Can I use two different water heaters.
Also please don’t forget a separate relief valve on the “boiler” or heating side.
We are hearing Water Gurgling in our Hot Water Heat Furnace Lines?
very appreciative what you are doing. I like your tank based hydronic heating system. I am building one using a 65,000 GSW 6G5065SN-PDV-02 tank heater like the Polaris (DHW + Hydronic heating. I have installed two temperature zone heating. One for wall mount 4 radiators at 140 to 160F/total BTU around 30,000 and one for 3 circuits (150'/100'/100') of 1/2" Pex at 110F max total BTU around 20,000. The tank will be used strictly for closed loop system (no DHW). Just want to know what is the best way the implement this two temperature zone system. Thank you.
Do you know any company installing this ? How much cost to complete the work, if you don't mind please?
Great information this is the best explanation I have found. How do I calculate how many BTUs I will need for in floor heating of the shop?
Richard Martinek get a heat loss done. Let me know info and I can do one as well.
Could you use hybrid electric water tank ? Also if you eliminate thermostat an just use timer and set to run 50 percent leave pump circulating for a very small loop in small part of basment slab just as supplemental heating ?
How much to get all the components hooked up and running in say a 1200 sq. ' house if i did all the instalation?
If I want to just add baseboard heaters can i just install a circular pump to heat the radiator baseboards ?
Is there a good tank type water heater that’s electric that can be used for radiant heat?
I wonder if someone can recommend a circulator for the domestic side when using a heat exchanger. I used a Wilo S16 for the hydronic side, but having trouble finding an affordable brass circulator. The S16, being cast iron, can't be used for domestic.