Your explanation was exactly correct, Matt. The only thing I would add is that the runner can still be out if the ball passes an infielder (not including the pitcher) and no other infielder has a chance at the ball - if the runner does something intentional to get hit by the ball, then he is still out. Otherwise, as long as he doesn't do anything intentional, he is safe as you explained. I am an umpire and for the past several years I gave rules talks to my son's youth baseball team, and this is one rule that I hit every year!
@@darinlegore284probably because you are paid to do so and get it wrong as often as they do. The difference is the players and coaches will look at the rule and learn where they were wrong. Umpires are too egotistical to admit they are ever wrong.
@@MDC33 your right. But Matt was correct. Announcers immediately in interjected a non-factor "but he was on the base" thus distorting the incident. They do this frequently even though I'm told home team hosting always provides an updated current rule book in booth, and #MLB provide umpire bios and sometimes a procedures/case book. Here in Baltimore almost every week Jim Palmer says, "but we all know tie goes to the runner..." which is not only not true but contradicted by rule which says "if runner does not BEAT the throw he is out..."
@darinlegore284 I always believed the tie SHOULD go to the runner, but in 36 years of watching baseball, that has never been the case. Probably because of the rule you mentioned. I feel like it's 9 guys against 1 and the onus ought to be on the defense. I guess i disagree with the rule.
Now that I have listened to the remainder of your video, you reminded me of a similar play I was involved in while playing high level amateur baseball decades and decades ago. I was a runner on first and was stealing 2nd when the batter smoked a grounder into my foot while I was @ 45' from second and the second baseman was covering 2B. I was not called out by the old retired former PCL umpire, as he could see the 1st and 2nd basemen had NO chance to field the ball, and that the output of the hit striking me was to the defense's advantage, for it kept me from advancing to 3rd. In fact, the next batter up skied a deep fly ball on the first pitch to the outfield, I advanced to third, and the next batter fanned for the 3rd out.
That would require a rather creative interpretation of "before"; if that had been the intention of the rule writers, they should have written "before an infielder would have ...". IIRC, this rule doesn't require any judgment that the interference was intentional or that it benefited the offensive team. IMO you should have been called out.
Marvin, at MJH-Baseball, covered this very play & rule 4 or 5 years ago. (He did some great videos, most on LL or other youth baseball. He doesn’t post too much, as his players are, I believe out of HS.) It’s good to cover this again, as many propel think the runner is on the bag so safe.
The Confusion with this rule comes from a rule difference between Softball and Baseball. Softball does protect runners who are in contact with a base when hit with a batted ball. The philosophy is based upon the shortness of the distance between bases and the fact that runners cannot lead off before a pitch is released. Little League Baseball allegedly uses the same rule as NFHS Baseball or the OBR. That's a shame because in actual Little League Baseball, runners can't lead off until the ball crosses HomePlate. They probably should be protected when using 60' ft bases.
As an umpire with over 20 years of experience in fastpitch softball, I will say that explanation is incorrect. Runners can leave the base as soon as the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, so there is less reason to protect the runner on the bag in softball than in Little League baseball. Instead, I'd suggest that in softball, the base is simply a safe place unless forced or intentionally interfering. Also in softball, if the batted ball hits a runner on the base BEFORE it passes a fielder, the ball is DEAD, but if it hits the runner AFTER passing a fielder, the ball is live.
LL uses its own rule set. It is essentially OBR in its older format. Of course, there are a few safety things added. The main difference is the base running rules (and how those affect the pitching rules).
Runner on second is out. It doesn’t matter if the runner is on the base. The only caveat is if the ball passed a fielder (not including pitcher,) who had an attempt on the play before hitting the runner. It’s also why I tell my runners on third to take their lead in foul territory.
Was wondering if the pitcher made a play on the ball and touched and deflected it and then it hit the runner, if the rule would still apply. Keyword TOUCHED.
Props to that base umpire for knowing the rules well enough to make the correct call on a relatively obscure situation (rare enough that an ex-pro like Antonelli, who has played in the highest levels of baseball, found it unusual enough to feature). And to think that he just officiates in the Little League.
One thing I would note, and we have the advantage of scrubbing the video frame-by-frame, is that the runner hops slightly as the ball hits him. It looks as though his left foot comes off the bag, but his toes stay on the bag. The umpire, in real time, might have seen this movement and thought he took his foot off the bag. I would expect it to be an out either way. Great move by the pitcher to get out of the way. Even on a bounce, the ball could still be traveling faster than his pitch. Best to let the infielders handle it rather than trying to stop it. That's why the quoted rule exempts pitchers.
If I remember correctly, a pop-up directly on the base in a non-infield fly rule situation basically means that the runner has to play twister to avoid obstructing the fielder while the ball is in the air
I recall a play at second base, quite some time ago, with the Blue jays batting. Runner on second. Batter pops up, the shortstop starts to maneuver for the catch. The base runner stands with both feet on second base, crouches in a tuck position with his arms clutched around his knees, and waits for the SS to run into him. Result: batter safe at first, baserunner safe at second, SS really P**ed off...
@@johnmorriss5308 Yep! While in contact with the base, he must still avoid the batted ball. But if on the base, he is not out for hindering a fielder (unless intentional).
Under the current rules fir Little League, Rule 5.09(f) and 7.09(k) require that the ball must not have yet been touched by an infielder, including the pitcher, to declare the runner out (contact with the bases is irrelevant). The pitcher did indeed move away from the ball and did not contact the batted ball, thus the runner is out AND the ball is dead.
Announcer be like, "Well, I will admit that I never played organized baseball. But I was a 3rd grade phy ed teacher for twenty years, and whenever we played kickball, the base was always safe."
It is surprising to me how many people don't know what an infielder is. So much so that rules have to have stuff added to them so it doesn't confuse people.
Yeah...I had to know this one. I never had it happen when I was working a game. I did see it happen when I was coaching....Our team was in the field. Runner on second and third...In field in...Ball is batted up the middle our SS was closest. He misses. Runner at second takes off after the ball hits him while he's still touching second. Ball was in play. No interference. Umpire explained it to a "T"....Iearning experience for me.
Reminds me of a game when I was umpiring. Nearly same situation, I was the field umpire (standing about where the umpire was here.) I initially called out and was firm with my call. The other team is screaming at me that he's safe. I held to my call and the plate umpire told me I was wrong as well. The other team said that they were going to play this game under protest so we go to the other team to let them know. The other team doesn't want to deal with it because their manager thought I was wrong as well. So I ended up changing the call to avoid the protest situation (I wouldn't do that today.) Unfortunately I didn't have my rulebook in my bag because I had been asked at the last minute.
Good video. There is another good video out there done by a retired major league umpire explaining odd situations like this. One that he explained was similar to this. Runner on 2nd, infield popup (not infield fly rule), SS has to go through 2nd base area to make the catch. Runner doesn't move and SS runs into him. The ruling is runner interference and he's out. As the umpire stated, bases are not safe havens which many fans don't understand. State this in a bar and be prepared for a big argument.
That is interesting-because that would be the wrong call according to “Rule 6.01a penalty for interference comment:” which says that a runner legally in contact with a base is not out for hindering a fielder (unless intentional).
It depends. If the batted ball passes a fielder other than the pitcher and then hits the runner, the runner is safe and the ball is live (exception). If the batted ball passes a fielder other than the pitcher, then hits the runner; however, a second fielder is behind the runner, the runner is out, the ball is dead and the batter-runner is awarded 1st base (exception exception).
Good analysis of the rule. It is pretty straightforward that there is no exception for the runner being on the base here but I always like to think of little ways that baseball rules could be tweaked to be more fair or consistent with other rules. I'm not yet sure how I feel about this one but it got me wondering if there maybe should be an exception written into the rules. It wouldn't have taken much for the runner to take a half step off the base to avoid the ball and then get back on if he wanted to but his instinct was clearly to stay on the base and I'm not sure if that's a bad thing? What do y'all think?
Back in about 1962 I was playing in the Little League Championship game for my small town. The game was tied (don't remember the score) in the bottom of the last inning (6th inning). I came up to bat with 2 outs and the bases loaded. After several pitches, I hit a sharp ground ball just inside the first base line. There was no way the first baseman could get it because there was no stealing or "leading off the bag" by a base runner, so the first baseman played well off the bag. But the ball hit the runner on first base in the leg and he was declared out, and the inning over. Back in those days we had no lights, and because it was getting dark we had to come back the next day to finish the game, and we lost. My chance for baseball immortality evaporated and my life was ruined. BTW, I don't believe I was awarded a single, as I was the first batter up in the next inning. Obviously the runner who got hit with the ball was declared out.
@@MwD676 That was the ruling in my Little League back in the early 1960's, so who knows if the rules were different back then or different for Little League? When the bottom half of the next inning was played (next day due to darkness) I was the first batter up and walked, so it did not hurt my team (but we lost the game). So even if the ruling was slightly wrong, it did not affect the outcome of the game.
Is this a judgement call, ie does the umpire need to judge weather the fielders could have made a play? Or is it automatic if the fielders are behind the base(line)?
That's not the rule. The ball has to get past the infielders for the exception to apply. It doesn't matter whether the infielders actually had a play on it or not. Also, there is no baseline on this play. A baseline is only created during a tag attempt. The ball was dead when it contacted the runner and no tag could be made.
On love, you are incorrect in your definition… there is ALWAYS a baseline. It is a straight line from one base to the next. Your statement would be true if you used the term BASEPATH. A runner creates his own basepath, and it only becomes an issue when a play is being made on him.
@CommonSense823 except that Roy is the only one that is correct. The baseline is the direct path between bases. . The runners BasePath is what becomes established at the time of a tag attempt. Just because everyone uses the wrong terms, doesn't make them correct. Baselines never change, basepaths do
One thing that I think Matt does not cover clearly: The runner is not out if it passes a fielder (and no other fielder has an opportunity) AND “it touches the runner immediately behind the fielder.” So the fact the the infield is in might not matter. It matters if it passes IN THE VICINITY of a fielder and then touches the runner IMMEDIATELY BEHIND him. (And with that info, the fact that LL rules do not specifically exclude the pitcher does not matter.) Other than that, runner is out for being touched by a batted ball-even if technically past the fielders. This exception was mentioned: If touched by an infield fly while in contact with a base, ball is dead but only batter is out. Another exception would be if the ball was first touched by another fielder (including the pitcher, in this case).
Would it be possible to review in parallel with softball rules as there may be families or umpires involved in both, and there may be rule differences that are not known.
I know its different in Softball Canada. Rule 5.10.4 (g) the runner is protected on a base provided they didn't intentionally interfere with the ball or fielder. It is a dead ball if it has not passed a fielder first and a live ball if the fielder is ahead of the base (paraphrasing). Much kinder!
Yes, I think this is where some of the confusion stems from. USA and NSA softball of Michigan are the same as the Canadian rule stated by Roger. IDK about other associations or states. Super hard to convince men that grew up playing baseball that the softball rule is different. Weather they are coaching fast pitch or playing slow pitch them selves, they assume it's the same rule as baseball. It does make some sense why they are different as softball does Not have leadoffs at any level and the bases are 70' or less in majority of levels. This puts the runners on the base at time of contact much more often and also closer to the batter than baseball at most base distances, making the likelihood of unintentional interference while touching a base much more likely in softball.
And to add to the batter is credited with a single - there have been cases where a pitcher lost their no hitter on a runner interference! How frustrating would that be??!!
Would / should the pitcher be considered a fielder as the ball went past the pitcher who had a chance to field the ball and then hit the base runner. If the pitcher made an attempt to field it, would it not be similar to infielders playing in who didn’t field the batted ball? Thx.
@@NorseSoftballNetwork The pitcher is a fielder, but the rule states that if the ball isn't touched by a fielder then it has to go past an infielder, before hitting the runner, for the runner to be able to be safe. It didn't go past an infielder. The attempt by the pitcher wouldn't matter if he didn't touch the ball.
The runner on second base is safe in this play based on what you just described. You forgot about the pitcher. He had a chance to field the ball but he stepped towards first base at the last second. Therefore he's safe.
Just curious-when you say that if the ball gets by the infielders and then hits a runner, the runner isn’t out, is the pitcher considered an “infielder” for that rule? What about if the defense has one or more outfielders playing in on the dirt-are they considered “infielders” for this rule? Thanks for the great video series!!
On the contrary, 5.06c6 says the ball is dead, and batter awarded 1st, when a fair ball touches a runner before it touches a fielder INCLUDING the pitcher, or…before it has passed a fielder OTHER THAN the pitcher… So you can see the pitcher (who occupies his position in the infield-which is the rule book definition of infielder) must be an infielder that is included/excluded from specific rules. (He is excluded from the passing, but he is including in the touching.)
Actually, Mr Walton is on to something-but with the wrong reasoning. We don’t really need that exclusion. Passing a fielder only exempts the runner from being touched if it touches the runner IMMEDIATELY behind the fielder. So when the ball passes the pitcher on the mound, it still must travel some distance to reach a runner.
The runner has a right to the bag. He didn't interfere with an infielder's chance to make a play because they were too far away. The umpire should not have stopped the play because the ball was still live. However, once he stopped it, the best thing to do is create a rule to achieve fairness. Call a do-over and reestablish the conditions in effect before the pitch. (I called ball for 21 years and something like this happened in a game I called. My base umpire stopped play because he was hit by a batted ball. I corrected his mistake with a simple do-over. Both teams were happy. (By rule, umpires are considered to be a part of the field.)
On a declared infield fly, the base does protect the runner. However, the runner must allow the fielder to field the batted ball. If the runner interferes with the fielder, both the batter (infield fly) and the runner (interference) are out.
@@davidwurbel6610 That is not correct. A runner who is in contact with the base is not guilty of interference when he hinders a fielder. This is true on an infield fly or any other batted ball. (See 6.01a penalty for interference comment.)
Little league and any other league with closed bases (that is, no lead offs and stealing only after the ball has crossed the plate) is where you could realistically even have a hit ball with a runner still in contact with the base. This is just another case of people applying playground rules and misconceptions of what the base does for a runner to the game. The real nuance of this rule is, as you mentioned, the positions the fielders are taking on the hit and whether they are in front of or behind the line of the runner.
Runner on second Is out, same thing happened to me 2 years ago, I was on third base and took my lead in fair territory, got hit in the knee with the ball cause I couldn’t see it in the dark (no lights)
This is the first time I've heard of this rule. It makes sense if it's intentional, but I feel like there should be some space for interpretation. I dont believe that the runner intentionally let his balls get hit. I think he was trying to open space for it to go past him. I mean how often does this even happen? Maybe it was a big thing back in the days when the world had no color but I'm Gen X and have never seen this happen.
There is an exception tonthe exception. If the ball has passed an infielder, but there is a 2nd infielder directly behind the runner when the ball hits him it is still out. For example maybe the corners are playing in and the middle infield is playing back. If the ball passes the 3rd baseman but the shortsop is in position behind the runner to make a play on the ground ball and it hits the runner, he is out.
@@tommo9942if a second infielder has a play when it hits the runner, the runner is still out, even if passes the first fielder. He’s safe only if the umpire believes no other infielder had a play on the ball.
Safe bectause the ball passed at least 1 infielder if he gets hit. Now, if the runner makes contact with the back fielder and interferes with the 2nd fielder's ability to make a play,, then out because of that. 3:33 The purpose is to allow at least 1 fielder an opportunity to field the ball. If it's past them, then the runner isn't potentially interfering with that front fielders ability, so safe it he is hit as he isn't interfering with the player should the ball bounce off him. The 2nd player doesn't matter because 1 player had a chance. It could become a judgment call on runner interference though, against the 2nd infielder, but would need to be considered intentional by the umpires. He wouldn't be able to kick it or pick it up and throw it etc lol. It's sort of like if a thrown ball hits a runner after the ball is past the 1st infielder.
@zachariahkeen5002 You are correct. It would matter if the first fielder TOUCHED the batted ball (in the case of the runner being touched by the ball). Then, the runner is not out.
The pitcher doesn’t count as a fielder in this case as he jumped out of the way of the ball? Or is the pitcher exempt / not considered one of the fielders in this case?
@@mph7282the pitcher is a fielder, but isn't an infielder. If it touched a fielder, which would include the pitcher, the runner would have been safe. If it passed an infielder, which wouldn't include the pitcher, he would have been safe.
Sure. But he is excluded from the rule about the ball passing him. That rule requires that the ball touched the runner IMMEDIATELY behind the fielder who missed it. Since the pitcher is n the mound, he would probably not be “immediately” in front of the runner.
Matt, I’ve had conversations with many people about this play. In my opinion, unless there is a force play, the baserunner at two did not need to vacate his base. Also, and this in the umpires judgement, but both infielders (SS, 2B) were not able to make a play on the batted ball so in my opinion, the baserunner at second is safe even though he was hit with the batted ball. Again, this is a judgement call by the base ump as to whether the middle infielders could make a play.
@ Well as I said, just my opinion but more importantly, it’s the judgement of the base ump… as I also indicated. Keep up. Rules are rules, and I get that, but each umpire is different on judgement calls. Some will make a judgement call different than others.
"In my opinion, unless there is a force play, the baserunner at two did not need to vacate his base." This is the "duh" intuition. It sounds like this is not the rule. If so, the rule should be changed to something more sensible.
If the fielders are on the grass in front of the runner, and the ball hits the runner is the ball considered dead? Or is the runner able to advance as much as he can?
It is either dead ball and out for interference, no interference, because an exemption applies, and so ball stays live. (Assuming we are not talking about base contact and being touch by an infield fly. That’s that is the only time ball is dead but touched runner is not out.)
The reason this is such a rare occurrence is that the runner should have been running. It's a mystery why he stood there firmly planted on the bag, on a grounder up the middle.
It doesn't matter that he's on the base but it's a difficult call because it's right back up the middle. If it hits the runner before it gets past any fielder other than the pitcher, then the runner is out. However, in this particular example an argument could be made that there was no fielder in position to make a play on the ball because it was directly up the middle. I don't know the exact verbiage on the rule without looking it up so I'm not sure if there's any room for judgement. That being the case, I would call the runner out.
In order for the runner to not be out, the ball must pass a fielder and then touch the runner IMMEDIATELY behind the fielder. So there doesn’t need to be a fielder in position to make a play. The requirement is that the fielder already had a chance and missed before the runner is touched (and that no other infielder has a play).
Can’t really fathom how your case play would look. But if he can’t make the play and impeded the runner, then the fielder has probably just committed obstruction.
I had runner called out standing on 3B because of defensive interference on a pop fly to 3b . The 3 baseman ran into the runner which was standing on 3b bag. Was this call correct?
By rule the runner is out. Like you mentioned if the fielder's were playing in and had a chance at the ball the runner would have been safe in this case.
All the runner on 2nd had to do was step out of the way, quickly, and step back in the bag, or, advance if the hit got through. Bad base running. Great rule info.
This is little league where runners can’t lead off bases like in senior league and above where runners aren’t standing on a base when the ball passes the plate. The rule should be amended for little league play. The rule makes more sense in higher leagues where runners are a body length or so off the bag when the pitch is delivered and are already in the base path. I feel bad for the runner… taking one off the cup and getting called out for his troubles. While the ruling may technically be correct if a runner standing on a base is tagged the runner is safe so why then should a runner be out on this one in a million play? There are already different rules for little leaguers and this rule should be amended accordingly for little league play.
Kent the pitcher an infielder after the ball is pitched? To hit the runner on 2nd base it went right by the pitcher. Should not matter they jumped out of the way, definitely had a chance to field the ball.
It comes up so rarely, i.e., when the runner does not have a lead-off.... how often does that happen? I get that this is LL, so the lead-off doesn't come until after the pitch, but the runner should still have some sort of lead off after the pitch - which he doesn't. Instead, he let's himself get whacked in the gonads. Come on.
I didn't know about that rule. I was thinking safe because he was on the bag? I do know about getting hit in growing 🤪 by a ball traveling over 100 mph. A pretty funny story. I was coaching at my local junior college, thowing live BP. For what ssemed like for hours. I started on the mound, and every kid wanted a piece of old Jerry, even a couple of coaches. I was doing my thing wheeling and dealing. Went through every hitter on the team. As my arm got tired, i just kept creeping up a few feet. No screen. Finally, on the last guy 👦. I thought he said you better not hit me or I will charge the mound? So I am like, well, I better throw one down the middle. Sure enough, he hits a 117 mph rocket right at me! I barely had time to say "oh #%@#", got me no cup. I almost rolled around the whole mound, and the trainer came out and everything. I asked if it was ok . He said i ain't going there. Fortunately, i survived with a good bruise. Throwing live bp without a screen for 2 hours 45' away. Probably, not the best idea.
@@DavidWalton-g8w The exception about going past a fielder says: “goes through or by a infielder (other than the pitcher)…” The exception about the ball being deflected says: “when the ball is deflected by an infielder, including the pitcher…” In any case, just because the term is ‘infielder’ you cannot necessarily exclude the pitcher.
@@MwD676 @MwD676 if you look at a PDF of the official rules for Little League and MLB it will not include the exception for the pitcher, because it does not need to. Saying infielder already excludes the pitcher. Websites add it so that it doesn't confuse people. It is surprising how many people don't know what an infielder is.
The pitcher had a chance to play the ball. Does the pitcher not count as an infielder? I initially said the runner was out due to interference and I have no idea how I knew that, but as the rule was explained, I feel the pitcher COULD have fielded the ball, so then that would make the runner safe???
The best thing about this rule is that it kills the play. I wish they would do the same thing for the infield fly rule, at least for the younger guys. Just kill the play as soon as the umpire calls it and reset the runners. That way the confusion on the field won't lead to extra outs.
There is a gray area in this rule that is for the umpires interpretation of whether a “defensive play could be made on the ball by a player that it has not yet passed“. In this exact example, an Umpire could absolutely rule that neither the shortstop nor the second baseman would’ve had the ability to make a play on that exact ball with that exact bounce and it’s exact trajectory and could rule a dead ball batter gets first runner stays at second.
Don’t know the rule in LL, but in OBR or higher levels there is no such gray area. The rule is clear: if a fair ball touches a baserunner prior to being touched by or passing an infielder, other than the pitcher, the runner is out. It’s not open to interpretation. There is some interpretation in another scenario, however. If a ball is deflected by or passes an infielder, then hits the runner, but another infielder still had a play on it, the umpire should still rule the runner out. Only if the umpire is convinced that no other infielder has a play should the runner be ruled safe and the ball live.
@ This used to happen all the time in the MLB before they disallowed the shift. Right handed batter with all three infielders overloaded on the left side, runner on first takes off on a hit-and-run and the ball hits him where the second baseman would have normally been, but there was no one there to make the play. I don’t remember if it was a dead ball/everybody safe or if it was played as live, though, I can’t remember. Saw it a couple times
@@mph7282 “A runner makes contact with a batted ball that did not go through or by a fielder, unless no infielder had a chance to immediately field the ball….”
@@davidross4102 if it hits the runner before passing an infielder the runner is out and the batter is awarded 1B. Whether or not you feel the fielder could have gotten there or not doesn’t factor into it. In fact, I’ve seen the situation you describe and every single time it was ruled runner interference. It’s a dead ball, R1 out, BR to 1B.
I think the kid froze because you are taught as a baserunner (not a force situation) to run if its less than 2 outs and the ball is hit to your left and stay put if it's hit to your right. It was hit right at him so he got confused and froze.
The ball was hit back through the middle of the pitchers mound, the pitcher could have fielded it. That may be a stretch, but it is clearly there. Next, if the runner comes off base to keep from getting hit, the shortstop is close enough to field the ball and tag him out. Is he required to put himself in that jeopardy.
😂 What the pitcher could miraculously do or not means nothing. The only thing keeping that ball in the infield was the runner that inexcusably decided to knock it down with his junk. The runner should have been off the bag as soon as the ball hit the ground. He could either advance or retreat, but there is zero excuse to be standing on the base.
It looks like it would’ve been the centerfielder is the only one making a play on the ball if the runner wasn’t there. Does it matter at all if they were so far away that they couldn’t make a play on the ball?
You can't see from the video, but I imagine 1st base doesn't have a runner on it, so the runner on 2nd base isn't forced to go to 3rd, and is therefore cautious of being thrown out trying to go to 3rd by one of the infielders (most likely the SS).
@jdbeckley yeah I think he froze because it wasn't hit to his left or right so he got confused when it came straight for him. If he had broke on contact, he makes 3rd easily and most likely scores if it squeaks through the infield. MLB players can't run the bases as pros so I don't blame a little leaguer. I've never seen this play before.
@@swilson7509 “when a fair ball touches the runner before an infielder (not including the pitcher) makes a play on the ball, the play is ruled interference on the baserunner. The baserunner is out, the ball is dead, the batter is awarded a single, and the closest defender is credited with a putout.”
The bag is NOT a sanctuary! That’s a myth! A runner is out if he is hit by a fair batted ball in fair territory. It does not even discuss where a bag is.
So if a Runner is on 3rd base and is hot by the ball When he is on the base He is Out? Who Changed that rule the runner should be safe as long as he is on the Bag .
why is the pitcher not considered to have a chance at a play on the ball? he technically makes a defensive move away from the ball instead of trying to stop it. is there a rule that allows this pitcher reaction to not count as a defensive player having a chance to play the ball?
My only question would be, does the pitcher have a chance to field the ball. He clearly jumps out of the way, so I would argue he had a chance to make a play on the ball. Does that then become a judgement call by the umpire?
If the pitcher had touched it he would have been safe... but the pitcher technically isn't part of the infield right? But if the pitcher made a play on the ball but didn't touch it would the base runner still be out?
I think the folks who maintain the runner is out are not understanding the spirit of the rule or of the game. It is clear to me the middle infielders did not remotely have a chance of fielding the grounder. The same principle applies to the infield fly rule where at a certain low level of play, a pop up hit 6/10 feet beyond second basemen has no chance of being caught -- live ball, play on. Some say the middle infielders were close. Disagree -- not even close.
The folks who maintain the runner is out are correct and you are wrong. This is not the same principle as an infield fly. It doesn't matter that the infielders could not make a play.
I guessed wrong. I thought that it mattered that the runner was on base. Great video and explanation (as always)!
Your explanation was exactly correct, Matt. The only thing I would add is that the runner can still be out if the ball passes an infielder (not including the pitcher) and no other infielder has a chance at the ball - if the runner does something intentional to get hit by the ball, then he is still out. Otherwise, as long as he doesn't do anything intentional, he is safe as you explained. I am an umpire and for the past several years I gave rules talks to my son's youth baseball team, and this is one rule that I hit every year!
He said this in his explanation
Thank you for knowing the rule, Matt. I hate that more people don't know this, especially the umpires we see in our travel leagues here in Texas.
so true. Most players & manager have very little knowledge of rules, pay us to do so, then argue our application/interpretations
@@darinlegore284probably because you are paid to do so and get it wrong as often as they do. The difference is the players and coaches will look at the rule and learn where they were wrong. Umpires are too egotistical to admit they are ever wrong.
Well it's not a common play. I don't think I've ever seen it.
@@MDC33 your right. But Matt was correct. Announcers immediately in interjected a non-factor "but he was on the base" thus distorting the incident. They do this frequently even though I'm told home team hosting always provides an updated current rule book in booth, and #MLB provide umpire bios and sometimes a procedures/case book. Here in Baltimore almost every week Jim Palmer says, "but we all know tie goes to the runner..." which is not only not true but contradicted by rule which says "if runner does not BEAT the throw he is out..."
@darinlegore284 I always believed the tie SHOULD go to the runner, but in 36 years of watching baseball, that has never been the case. Probably because of the rule you mentioned. I feel like it's 9 guys against 1 and the onus ought to be on the defense. I guess i disagree with the rule.
Now that I have listened to the remainder of your video, you reminded me of a similar play I was involved in while playing high level amateur baseball decades and decades ago. I was a runner on first and was stealing 2nd when the batter smoked a grounder into my foot while I was @ 45' from second and the second baseman was covering 2B.
I was not called out by the old retired former PCL umpire, as he could see the 1st and 2nd basemen had NO chance to field the ball, and that the output of the hit striking me was to the defense's advantage, for it kept me from advancing to 3rd. In fact, the next batter up skied a deep fly ball on the first pitch to the outfield, I advanced to third, and the next batter fanned for the 3rd out.
That was you on second? Dang, took a hit in a bad spot and kept in there. Nice.
You should have been called out.
@@alanhess9306 Brilliant.
@@cwj9202 Yes, adhering to the rules is brilliant.
That would require a rather creative interpretation of "before"; if that had been the intention of the rule writers, they should have written "before an infielder would have ...".
IIRC, this rule doesn't require any judgment that the interference was intentional or that it benefited the offensive team. IMO you should have been called out.
Marvin, at MJH-Baseball, covered this very play & rule 4 or 5 years ago. (He did some great videos, most on LL or other youth baseball. He doesn’t post too much, as his players are, I believe out of HS.)
It’s good to cover this again, as many propel think the runner is on the bag so safe.
No. The bag is only a sanctuary during an infield fly.
Yeah. I think his son graduated HS a year-and-half ago. No new vids from Marv since then.
The Confusion with this rule comes from
a rule difference between Softball and Baseball. Softball does protect runners who are in contact with a base when hit with a batted ball. The philosophy is based upon the shortness of the distance between bases and the fact that runners cannot lead off before a pitch is released.
Little League Baseball allegedly uses the same rule as NFHS Baseball or the OBR. That's a shame because in actual Little League Baseball, runners can't lead off until the ball crosses HomePlate. They probably should be protected when using 60' ft bases.
Agree completely with your reasoning
As an umpire with over 20 years of experience in fastpitch softball, I will say that explanation is incorrect. Runners can leave the base as soon as the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, so there is less reason to protect the runner on the bag in softball than in Little League baseball. Instead, I'd suggest that in softball, the base is simply a safe place unless forced or intentionally interfering. Also in softball, if the batted ball hits a runner on the base BEFORE it passes a fielder, the ball is DEAD, but if it hits the runner AFTER passing a fielder, the ball is live.
LL uses its own rule set. It is essentially OBR in its older format. Of course, there are a few safety things added. The main difference is the base running rules (and how those affect the pitching rules).
Runner on second is out. It doesn’t matter if the runner is on the base. The only caveat is if the ball passed a fielder (not including pitcher,) who had an attempt on the play before hitting the runner. It’s also why I tell my runners on third to take their lead in foul territory.
Was wondering if the pitcher made a play on the ball and touched and deflected it and then it hit the runner, if the rule would still apply. Keyword TOUCHED.
Runner is safe if the ball is deflected by an infielder
If a runner is passing behind an infielder who deflects the ball, the runner is safe
@@MichaelZales-wj3tgcorrect. If a fielder, pitcher or umpire deflects the ball and then it hits the runner on the base, the runner is safe.
No. He's safe
The ball passed the pitcher. You can see him scurry away as the ball passes him.
Props to that base umpire for knowing the rules well enough to make the correct call on a relatively obscure situation (rare enough that an ex-pro like Antonelli, who has played in the highest levels of baseball, found it unusual enough to feature). And to think that he just officiates in the Little League.
One thing I would note, and we have the advantage of scrubbing the video frame-by-frame, is that the runner hops slightly as the ball hits him. It looks as though his left foot comes off the bag, but his toes stay on the bag. The umpire, in real time, might have seen this movement and thought he took his foot off the bag. I would expect it to be an out either way.
Great move by the pitcher to get out of the way. Even on a bounce, the ball could still be traveling faster than his pitch. Best to let the infielders handle it rather than trying to stop it. That's why the quoted rule exempts pitchers.
The umpire would have and should have called him out even if the foot remained firmly planted on the bag.
Excellent breakdown, opened my eyes also!! I was laughing pretty good too, even though I felt bad for the runner too! Great content though for sure!!
I honestly had to learn something new. Never saw that before. In most baseball, the runner has a lead and would not be tied to the bag.
GREAT explanation of the rule
Super interesting. I didn’t know this. Thanks for posting!
If I remember correctly, a pop-up directly on the base in a non-infield fly rule situation basically means that the runner has to play twister to avoid obstructing the fielder while the ball is in the air
I recall a play at second base, quite some time ago, with the Blue jays batting. Runner on second. Batter pops up, the shortstop starts to maneuver for the catch. The base runner stands with both feet on second base, crouches in a tuck position with his arms clutched around his knees, and waits for the SS to run into him. Result: batter safe at first, baserunner safe at second, SS really P**ed off...
@@johnmorriss5308
Yep!
While in contact with the base, he must still avoid the batted ball. But if on the base, he is not out for hindering a fielder (unless intentional).
Under the current rules fir Little League, Rule 5.09(f) and 7.09(k) require that the ball must not have yet been touched by an infielder, including the pitcher, to declare the runner out (contact with the bases is irrelevant). The pitcher did indeed move away from the ball and did not contact the batted ball, thus the runner is out AND the ball is dead.
Thank you, man. I didn’t know that I thought he was safe.
Announcer be like, "Well, I will admit that I never played organized baseball. But I was a 3rd grade phy ed teacher for twenty years, and whenever we played kickball, the base was always safe."
Nice job, happy holidays, thanks for posting.
The base does not matter with the interference rule. It's simply part of the field.
It is surprising to me how many people don't know what an infielder is. So much so that rules have to have stuff added to them so it doesn't confuse people.
The old phrase "insult to injury" comes to mind. Getting hit in the groin and then getting called out in pain.
Yeah...I had to know this one. I never had it happen when I was working a game. I did see it happen when I was coaching....Our team was in the field. Runner on second and third...In field in...Ball is batted up the middle our SS was closest. He misses. Runner at second takes off after the ball hits him while he's still touching second. Ball was in play. No interference. Umpire explained it to a "T"....Iearning experience for me.
The ball passing the fielder would have protected him, but touching the base did not.
Reminds me of a game when I was umpiring. Nearly same situation, I was the field umpire (standing about where the umpire was here.) I initially called out and was firm with my call. The other team is screaming at me that he's safe. I held to my call and the plate umpire told me I was wrong as well. The other team said that they were going to play this game under protest so we go to the other team to let them know. The other team doesn't want to deal with it because their manager thought I was wrong as well. So I ended up changing the call to avoid the protest situation (I wouldn't do that today.) Unfortunately I didn't have my rulebook in my bag because I had been asked at the last minute.
I don't carry a rule book. I make them prove that I'm wrong.
If you “carried” a rule book, you’d know it says that umpires SHOULD carry a rule book.
Good video. There is another good video out there done by a retired major league umpire explaining odd situations like this. One that he explained was similar to this. Runner on 2nd, infield popup (not infield fly rule), SS has to go through 2nd base area to make the catch. Runner doesn't move and SS runs into him. The ruling is runner interference and he's out. As the umpire stated, bases are not safe havens which many fans don't understand. State this in a bar and be prepared for a big argument.
That is interesting-because that would be the wrong call according to “Rule 6.01a penalty for interference comment:” which says that a runner legally in contact with a base is not out for hindering a fielder (unless intentional).
In the case where the fielders are in front, and the ball hits the runner, is the ball dead? What happens to the batter, does he still get a single?
It depends. If the batted ball passes a fielder other than the pitcher and then hits the runner, the runner is safe and the ball is live (exception). If the batted ball passes a fielder other than the pitcher, then hits the runner; however, a second fielder is behind the runner, the runner is out, the ball is dead and the batter-runner is awarded 1st base (exception exception).
If the runner is not called out when touched with a batted ball, the ball remains live. No awards.
Good analysis of the rule. It is pretty straightforward that there is no exception for the runner being on the base here but I always like to think of little ways that baseball rules could be tweaked to be more fair or consistent with other rules. I'm not yet sure how I feel about this one but it got me wondering if there maybe should be an exception written into the rules. It wouldn't have taken much for the runner to take a half step off the base to avoid the ball and then get back on if he wanted to but his instinct was clearly to stay on the base and I'm not sure if that's a bad thing? What do y'all think?
Interesting. My son just told me it happened in his college game. After an argument from the coach runner was called out.
Back in about 1962 I was playing in the Little League Championship game for my small town. The game was tied (don't remember the score) in the bottom of the last inning (6th inning). I came up to bat with 2 outs and the bases loaded. After several pitches, I hit a sharp ground ball just inside the first base line. There was no way the first baseman could get it because there was no stealing or "leading off the bag" by a base runner, so the first baseman played well off the bag. But the ball hit the runner on first base in the leg and he was declared out, and the inning over. Back in those days we had no lights, and because it was getting dark we had to come back the next day to finish the game, and we lost. My chance for baseball immortality evaporated and my life was ruined.
BTW, I don't believe I was awarded a single, as I was the first batter up in the next inning. Obviously the runner who got hit with the ball was declared out.
Well, you should’ve been awarded 1st-and your at bat complete. Next guy should’ve lead off.
@@MwD676 That was the ruling in my Little League back in the early 1960's, so who knows if the rules were different back then or different for Little League? When the bottom half of the next inning was played (next day due to darkness) I was the first batter up and walked, so it did not hurt my team (but we lost the game). So even if the ruling was slightly wrong, it did not affect the outcome of the game.
Matt if the ball hits the runner past the infielders (excluding pitcher) and runner is not out: is it a dead or live ball?
It remains live, as there is no interference.
Is this a judgement call, ie does the umpire need to judge weather the fielders could have made a play? Or is it automatic if the fielders are behind the base(line)?
That's not the rule. The ball has to get past the infielders for the exception to apply. It doesn't matter whether the infielders actually had a play on it or not. Also, there is no baseline on this play. A baseline is only created during a tag attempt. The ball was dead when it contacted the runner and no tag could be made.
On love, you are incorrect in your definition… there is ALWAYS a baseline. It is a straight line from one base to the next. Your statement would be true if you used the term BASEPATH. A runner creates his own basepath, and it only becomes an issue when a play is being made on him.
@@royscott3432 NOPE! Please read the rules! A baseline only exists in your mind.
@@royscott3432oh boy. You said all of that with such conviction too. 😂
@CommonSense823 except that Roy is the only one that is correct. The baseline is the direct path between bases. . The runners BasePath is what becomes established at the time of a tag attempt. Just because everyone uses the wrong terms, doesn't make them correct. Baselines never change, basepaths do
One thing that I think Matt does not cover clearly:
The runner is not out if it passes a fielder (and no other fielder has an opportunity) AND “it touches the runner immediately behind the fielder.”
So the fact the the infield is in might not matter. It matters if it passes IN THE VICINITY of a fielder and then touches the runner IMMEDIATELY BEHIND him. (And with that info, the fact that LL rules do not specifically exclude the pitcher does not matter.)
Other than that, runner is out for being touched by a batted ball-even if technically past the fielders.
This exception was mentioned:
If touched by an infield fly while in contact with a base, ball is dead but only batter is out.
Another exception would be if the ball was first touched by another fielder (including the pitcher, in this case).
Don't tell Manfred about this, or he'll find some way to implement another stupid new rule.
Lmmfao! So true. Rocker for commish.
I guessed right, based on what I’ve learned from this channel.
Would it be possible to review in parallel with softball rules as there may be families or umpires involved in both, and there may be rule differences that are not known.
I know its different in Softball Canada. Rule 5.10.4 (g) the runner is protected on a base provided they didn't intentionally interfere with the ball or fielder. It is a dead ball if it has not passed a fielder first and a live ball if the fielder is ahead of the base (paraphrasing). Much kinder!
Yes, I think this is where some of the confusion stems from. USA and NSA softball of Michigan are the same as the Canadian rule stated by Roger. IDK about other associations or states. Super hard to convince men that grew up playing baseball that the softball rule is different. Weather they are coaching fast pitch or playing slow pitch them selves, they assume it's the same rule as baseball. It does make some sense why they are different as softball does Not have leadoffs at any level and the bases are 70' or less in majority of levels. This puts the runners on the base at time of contact much more often and also closer to the batter than baseball at most base distances, making the likelihood of unintentional interference while touching a base much more likely in softball.
And to add to the batter is credited with a single - there have been cases where a pitcher lost their no hitter on a runner interference! How frustrating would that be??!!
Thank you for the update. I thought the base made the runner safe.
Would / should the pitcher be considered a fielder as the ball went past the pitcher who had a chance to field the ball and then hit the base runner. If the pitcher made an attempt to field it, would it not be similar to infielders playing in who didn’t field the batted ball? Thx.
@@NorseSoftballNetwork The pitcher is a fielder, but the rule states that if the ball isn't touched by a fielder then it has to go past an infielder, before hitting the runner, for the runner to be able to be safe. It didn't go past an infielder.
The attempt by the pitcher wouldn't matter if he didn't touch the ball.
@ TY!
The runner on second base is safe in this play based on what you just described. You forgot about the pitcher. He had a chance to field the ball but he stepped towards first base at the last second. Therefore he's safe.
I think you missed the part that I said “not including the pitcher”
@AntonelliBaseball your right my bad
Just curious-when you say that if the ball gets by the infielders and then hits a runner, the runner isn’t out, is the pitcher considered an “infielder” for that rule? What about if the defense has one or more outfielders playing in on the dirt-are they considered “infielders” for this rule? Thanks for the great video series!!
A pitcher is never an infielder.
On the contrary,
5.06c6 says the ball is dead, and batter awarded 1st, when a fair ball touches a runner before it touches a fielder INCLUDING the pitcher, or…before it has passed a fielder OTHER THAN the pitcher…
So you can see the pitcher (who occupies his position in the infield-which is the rule book definition of infielder) must be an infielder that is included/excluded from specific rules.
(He is excluded from the passing, but he is including in the touching.)
Actually, Mr Walton is on to something-but with the wrong reasoning.
We don’t really need that exclusion. Passing a fielder only exempts the runner from being touched if it touches the runner IMMEDIATELY behind the fielder. So when the ball passes the pitcher on the mound, it still must travel some distance to reach a runner.
The runner has a right to the bag. He didn't interfere with an infielder's chance to make a play because they were too far away. The umpire should not have stopped the play because the ball was still live. However, once he stopped it, the best thing to do is create a rule to achieve fairness. Call a do-over and reestablish the conditions in effect before the pitch. (I called ball for 21 years and something like this happened in a game I called. My base umpire stopped play because he was hit by a batted ball. I corrected his mistake with a simple do-over. Both teams were happy. (By rule, umpires are considered to be a part of the field.)
That's why, when you take a lead off of third base, you stay in foul territory....
Down in foul, back in fair.
What if an infield fly lands on the runner standing on 2nd base, hitting him (let's say on the head, for a Mark McGuire reference)?
On a declared infield fly, the base does protect the runner. However, the runner must allow the fielder to field the batted ball. If the runner interferes with the fielder, both the batter (infield fly) and the runner (interference) are out.
@@davidwurbel6610
That is not correct. A runner who is in contact with the base is not guilty of interference when he hinders a fielder. This is true on an infield fly or any other batted ball.
(See 6.01a penalty for interference comment.)
Little league and any other league with closed bases (that is, no lead offs and stealing only after the ball has crossed the plate) is where you could realistically even have a hit ball with a runner still in contact with the base. This is just another case of people applying playground rules and misconceptions of what the base does for a runner to the game. The real nuance of this rule is, as you mentioned, the positions the fielders are taking on the hit and whether they are in front of or behind the line of the runner.
Runner on second Is out, same thing happened to me 2 years ago, I was on third base and took my lead in fair territory, got hit in the knee with the ball cause I couldn’t see it in the dark (no lights)
This is the first time I've heard of this rule. It makes sense if it's intentional, but I feel like there should be some space for interpretation. I dont believe that the runner intentionally let his balls get hit. I think he was trying to open space for it to go past him. I mean how often does this even happen? Maybe it was a big thing back in the days when the world had no color but I'm Gen X and have never seen this happen.
On the bag or not, he's out. Batted ball hits a base runner before passing a defender other than the pitcher is out.
NFHS Softball... Runner is safe.8-1-2 Baseball... You are correct runner is out if it doesn't pass a fielder first
There is an exception tonthe exception. If the ball has passed an infielder, but there is a 2nd infielder directly behind the runner when the ball hits him it is still out. For example maybe the corners are playing in and the middle infield is playing back. If the ball passes the 3rd baseman but the shortsop is in position behind the runner to make a play on the ground ball and it hits the runner, he is out.
@@tommo9942if a second infielder has a play when it hits the runner, the runner is still out, even if passes the first fielder. He’s safe only if the umpire believes no other infielder had a play on the ball.
Safe bectause the ball passed at least 1 infielder if he gets hit. Now, if the runner makes contact with the back fielder and interferes with the 2nd fielder's ability to make a play,, then out because of that.
3:33 The purpose is to allow at least 1 fielder an opportunity to field the ball. If it's past them, then the runner isn't potentially interfering with that front fielders ability, so safe it he is hit as he isn't interfering with the player should the ball bounce off him. The 2nd player doesn't matter because 1 player had a chance. It could become a judgment call on runner interference though, against the 2nd infielder, but would need to be considered intentional by the umpires. He wouldn't be able to kick it or pick it up and throw it etc lol. It's sort of like if a thrown ball hits a runner after the ball is past the 1st infielder.
@zachariahkeen5002
You are correct.
It would matter if the first fielder TOUCHED the batted ball (in the case of the runner being touched by the ball). Then, the runner is not out.
@@warrenkbaum
I would check your rule book. Most of that is misleading-if not plainly incorrect.
@@tommo9942
Only matters if first guy touches the ball.
Suggestion:
Include rule citations in videos like these.
Provide the relevant rules in NFHS, NCAA, & OBR
I agree.
This is little league rule 7.09(k), in case you were wanting to know.
The pitcher doesn’t count as a fielder in this case as he jumped out of the way of the ball? Or is the pitcher exempt / not considered one of the fielders in this case?
@@awhuber1975 the pitcher is not considered a fielder for purposes of this rule.
Not attempting to make a play is not the same as not having a chance to make the play. The pitcher did have a chance to make the play
@@mph7282the pitcher is a fielder, but isn't an infielder.
If it touched a fielder, which would include the pitcher, the runner would have been safe.
If it passed an infielder, which wouldn't include the pitcher, he would have been safe.
@@geoffreymilke5176
ONLY matters if he touched the ball, or not.
Does NOT matter if he had a chance, or made an attempt, to make a play.
Runner is out and batter gets first. The base only protects the runner from being tagged. I umpired for 30 years so this was easy.
Is the pitcher considered an IF?
Sure. But he is excluded from the rule about the ball passing him. That rule requires that the ball touched the runner IMMEDIATELY behind the fielder who missed it. Since the pitcher is n the mound, he would probably not be “immediately” in front of the runner.
Matt, I’ve had conversations with many people about this play.
In my opinion, unless there is a force play, the baserunner at two did not need to vacate his base. Also, and this in the umpires judgement, but both infielders (SS, 2B) were not able to make a play on the batted ball so in my opinion, the baserunner at second is safe even though he was hit with the batted ball.
Again, this is a judgement call by the base ump as to whether the middle infielders could make a play.
Wrong. The runner is out. It does not matter if the SS or 2B could make a play.
Nope. Runner is out by rule. Rules matter in baseball, not opinions.
@ Well as I said, just my opinion but more importantly, it’s the judgement of the base ump… as I also indicated. Keep up.
Rules are rules, and I get that, but each umpire is different on judgement calls. Some will make a judgement call different than others.
@@jasondousett3620 Nope. The rules don't care about your opinions or feelings. Thanks!
"In my opinion, unless there is a force play, the baserunner at two did not need to vacate his base."
This is the "duh" intuition. It sounds like this is not the rule. If so, the rule should be changed to something more sensible.
Could it be considered that the pitcher had a "chance" to make the play?
The rule specifically excludes 1 from consideration.
@jasonfullerton7763 ahh good to know thanks for the info
If the fielders are on the grass in front of the runner, and the ball hits the runner is the ball considered dead? Or is the runner able to advance as much as he can?
The ball is live.
It is either dead ball and out for interference,
no interference, because an exemption applies, and so ball stays live.
(Assuming we are not talking about base contact and being touch by an infield fly. That’s that is the only time ball is dead but touched runner is not out.)
Kudos to the Umpire for knowing the rule.
I’m surprised the ump new the rule so fast
The reason this is such a rare occurrence is that the runner should have been running. It's a mystery why he stood there firmly planted on the bag, on a grounder up the middle.
It doesn't matter that he's on the base but it's a difficult call because it's right back up the middle.
If it hits the runner before it gets past any fielder other than the pitcher, then the runner is out. However, in this particular example an argument could be made that there was no fielder in position to make a play on the ball because it was directly up the middle. I don't know the exact verbiage on the rule without looking it up so I'm not sure if there's any room for judgement. That being the case, I would call the runner out.
In order for the runner to not be out, the ball must pass a fielder and then touch the runner IMMEDIATELY behind the fielder.
So there doesn’t need to be a fielder in position to make a play. The requirement is that the fielder already had a chance and missed before the runner is touched (and that no other infielder has a play).
Running on second is out. Batter is credited with a single and gets first.
What's the rule if an infielder pushes the runner into a batted ball while 'attempting to make a play' that he wouldn't be able to make otherwise??
Can’t really fathom how your case play would look. But if he can’t make the play and impeded the runner, then the fielder has probably just committed obstruction.
I had runner called out standing on 3B because of defensive interference on a pop fly to 3b . The 3 baseman ran into the runner which was standing on 3b bag. Was this call correct?
Yes
NO!!
Unless the hindrance of the fielder was deemed as intentional, the runner should not be called out when touching a legally occupied base.
By rule the runner is out. Like you mentioned if the fielder's were playing in and had a chance at the ball the runner would have been safe in this case.
is the pitcher an infielder? he is for the infield fly rule and he jumped out of the way.
@@johnc329 for this rule he is not included as a fielder
The pitcher isn't an infielder, but for the infield fly rule anyone stationed in the infield is considered an infielder.
All the runner on 2nd had to do was step out of the way, quickly, and step back in the bag, or, advance if the hit got through. Bad base running. Great rule info.
When the ball is headed for your nuts, you are probably not thinking of OBR section 5.6.7.3.4a(1).
This is little league where runners can’t lead off bases like in senior league and above where runners aren’t standing on a base when the ball passes the plate. The rule should be amended for little league play. The rule makes more sense in higher leagues where runners are a body length or so off the bag when the pitch is delivered and are already in the base path. I feel bad for the runner… taking one off the cup and getting called out for his troubles. While the ruling may technically be correct if a runner standing on a base is tagged the runner is safe so why then should a runner be out on this one in a million play? There are already different rules for little leaguers and this rule should be amended accordingly for little league play.
Ya, the rule is dumb and should be changed.
Kent the pitcher an infielder after the ball is pitched? To hit the runner on 2nd base it went right by the pitcher. Should not matter they jumped out of the way, definitely had a chance to field the ball.
@@DennisFerguson-b9f the rule specifically says the pitcher does not count as a fielder
@@AntonelliBaseball …unless he touches the ball.
Even if the ringer is out, I seem to remember that the batter is credited with a single.
Correct. Runner is out. Ball is dead. Batter gets a single.
Well I thought I knew the rules to baseball.
Definitely had him safe.
Maybe I knew it at one time.
It comes up so rarely, i.e., when the runner does not have a lead-off.... how often does that happen? I get that this is LL, so the lead-off doesn't come until after the pitch, but the runner should still have some sort of lead off after the pitch - which he doesn't. Instead, he let's himself get whacked in the gonads. Come on.
I didn't know about that rule. I was thinking safe because he was on the bag? I do know about getting hit in growing 🤪 by a ball traveling over 100 mph. A pretty funny story. I was coaching at my local junior college, thowing live BP. For what ssemed like for hours. I started on the mound, and every kid wanted a piece of old Jerry, even a couple of coaches. I was doing my thing wheeling and dealing. Went through every hitter on the team. As my arm got tired, i just kept creeping up a few feet. No screen. Finally, on the last guy 👦. I thought he said you better not hit me or I will charge the mound? So I am like, well, I better throw one down the middle. Sure enough, he hits a 117 mph rocket right at me! I barely had time to say "oh #%@#", got me no cup. I almost rolled around the whole mound, and the trainer came out and everything. I asked if it was ok . He said i ain't going there. Fortunately, i survived with a good bruise. Throwing live bp without a screen for 2 hours 45' away. Probably, not the best idea.
Didn't the pitcher have a chance to catch the ball ? Is the pitcher considered an infielder ?
@@poolbob8776 this rule states that the pitcher does not count as a fielder
@@AntonelliBaseballIt doesn't actually say that in the rule I looked at, but it does say infielder and that would not include the pitcher.
@@DavidWalton-g8w
The exception about going past a fielder says: “goes through or by a infielder (other than the pitcher)…”
The exception about the ball being deflected says: “when the ball is deflected by an infielder, including the pitcher…”
In any case, just because the term is ‘infielder’ you cannot necessarily exclude the pitcher.
@@MwD676 @MwD676 if you look at a PDF of the official rules for Little League and MLB it will not include the exception for the pitcher, because it does not need to. Saying infielder already excludes the pitcher.
Websites add it so that it doesn't confuse people. It is surprising how many people don't know what an infielder is.
What if the runner is on the bag and the ball hits the bag first then pops up and hits the runner with the fielder behind?
No change. Bag is in fair territory.
The pitcher had a chance to play the ball. Does the pitcher not count as an infielder?
I initially said the runner was out due to interference and I have no idea how I knew that, but as the rule was explained, I feel the pitcher COULD have fielded the ball, so then that would make the runner safe???
The pitcher had a chance to field it!!!
The best thing about this rule is that it kills the play. I wish they would do the same thing for the infield fly rule, at least for the younger guys. Just kill the play as soon as the
umpire calls it and reset the runners. That way the confusion on the field won't lead to extra outs.
There is a gray area in this rule that is for the umpires interpretation of whether a “defensive play could be made on the ball by a player that it has not yet passed“. In this exact example, an Umpire could absolutely rule that neither the shortstop nor the second baseman would’ve had the ability to make a play on that exact ball with that exact bounce and it’s exact trajectory and could rule a dead ball batter gets first runner stays at second.
Don’t know the rule in LL, but in OBR or higher levels there is no such gray area. The rule is clear: if a fair ball touches a baserunner prior to being touched by or passing an infielder, other than the pitcher, the runner is out. It’s not open to interpretation. There is some interpretation in another scenario, however. If a ball is deflected by or passes an infielder, then hits the runner, but another infielder still had a play on it, the umpire should still rule the runner out. Only if the umpire is convinced that no other infielder has a play should the runner be ruled safe and the ball live.
@ This used to happen all the time in the MLB before they disallowed the shift. Right handed batter with all three infielders overloaded on the left side, runner on first takes off on a hit-and-run and the ball hits him where the second baseman would have normally been, but there was no one there to make the play. I don’t remember if it was a dead ball/everybody safe or if it was played as live, though, I can’t remember. Saw it a couple times
@@mph7282 “A runner makes contact with a batted ball that did not go through or by a fielder, unless no infielder had a chance to immediately field the ball….”
@@davidross4102 if it hits the runner before passing an infielder the runner is out and the batter is awarded 1B. Whether or not you feel the fielder could have gotten there or not doesn’t factor into it. In fact, I’ve seen the situation you describe and every single time it was ruled runner interference. It’s a dead ball, R1 out, BR to 1B.
@@davidross4102That is not the little league rule.
I think the kid froze because you are taught as a baserunner (not a force situation) to run if its less than 2 outs and the ball is hit to your left and stay put if it's hit to your right. It was hit right at him so he got confused and froze.
The ball was hit back through the middle of the pitchers mound, the pitcher could have fielded it. That may be a stretch, but it is clearly there. Next, if the runner comes off base to keep from getting hit, the shortstop is close enough to field the ball and tag him out. Is he required to put himself in that jeopardy.
😂 What the pitcher could miraculously do or not means nothing. The only thing keeping that ball in the infield was the runner that inexcusably decided to knock it down with his junk. The runner should have been off the bag as soon as the ball hit the ground. He could either advance or retreat, but there is zero excuse to be standing on the base.
Runner is out , batter gets first , no other runner can advance unless they are forced by batter going to first.
Is the pitcher considered an infielder? He had a chance to field it.
@@terrypold not under this rule
@AntonelliBaseball ok
@@terrypold
Pitcher only matters if he touches the ball.
It looks like it would’ve been the centerfielder is the only one making a play on the ball if the runner wasn’t there. Does it matter at all if they were so far away that they couldn’t make a play on the ball?
It does not matter. The only thing that matters is it didn't touch a fielder and it didn't go by an infielder before it hit the runner.
What if the pitcher attempted a play on the ball instead of running away?
Wouldn't matter, unless the pitcher touched the ball before it hit the runner.
CUP CHECK!!
Why wasn't he running? He just stands on the bag on a ground ball?
You can't see from the video, but I imagine 1st base doesn't have a runner on it, so the runner on 2nd base isn't forced to go to 3rd, and is therefore cautious of being thrown out trying to go to 3rd by one of the infielders (most likely the SS).
@jdbeckley yeah I think he froze because it wasn't hit to his left or right so he got confused when it came straight for him. If he had broke on contact, he makes 3rd easily and most likely scores if it squeaks through the infield.
MLB players can't run the bases as pros so I don't blame a little leaguer. I've never seen this play before.
The runner is out. The base is only a sanctuary during an infield fly.
Correct.
The base does protect him from hindering a fielder, though.
@@MwD676 That is not correct. Rule 6.01(a)(10) does not provide an exception for a runner standing on the base.
Is the pitcher not an infielder?
@@swilson7509 no not under this rule
@AntonelliBaseball so it changes with different rules?
Pitcher is sometimes an infielder and sometimes not depending on the rule?
@@swilson7509 “when a fair ball touches the runner before an infielder (not including the pitcher) makes a play on the ball, the play is ruled interference on the baserunner. The baserunner is out, the ball is dead, the batter is awarded a single, and the closest defender is credited with a putout.”
@AntonelliBaseball thanks for the rule. Odd to me sometimes the pitcher is an infielder and sometimes the pitcher is not
I thought out. The runner at 2nd should have attempted to advance the hitter should push forward to second and forced the issue.
Wut? Since when is a non-forced runner forced to advance on a batted ball?
“Force the issue..” is an idiom unrelated to force plays.
The bag is NOT a sanctuary! That’s a myth! A runner is out if he is hit by a fair batted ball in fair territory. It does not even discuss where a bag is.
The pitcher had a chance to make a play. Runner is safe at second base
No. Pitcher only matters if he touches the ball.
So if a Runner is on 3rd base and is hot by the ball When he is on the base He is Out? Who Changed that rule the runner should be safe as long as he is on the Bag .
Move into foul territory. If you are hit by the ball it would just be a foul ball.
why is the pitcher not considered to have a chance at a play on the ball? he technically makes a defensive move away from the ball instead of trying to stop it. is there a rule that allows this pitcher reaction to not count as a defensive player having a chance to play the ball?
No. Pitcher only matters if he touches the ball.
The funny part is the pitcher didn't even an attempt on the ball he ran out the way looks like he could've made a play on the ball
Runner has to make an attempt to move. If he did and got hit he would have been safe?
My only question would be, does the pitcher have a chance to field the ball. He clearly jumps out of the way, so I would argue he had a chance to make a play on the ball. Does that then become a judgement call by the umpire?
Nope. Pitcher only matters if he touches the ball.
Out, if the ball hits the runner before it crosses the infield, the runner is out
The pitcher flinched away from the play and had ample opportunity to field it …
Pitcher does not apply unless he touches the ball.
If the pitcher had touched it he would have been safe... but the pitcher technically isn't part of the infield right? But if the pitcher made a play on the ball but didn't touch it would the base runner still be out?
Called it immediately. Runner out. Dead Ball. Batter runner gains first base.
I think the folks who maintain the runner is out are not understanding the spirit of the rule or of the game. It is clear to me the middle infielders did not remotely have a chance of fielding the grounder. The same principle applies to the infield fly rule where at a certain low level of play, a pop up hit 6/10 feet beyond second basemen has no chance of being caught -- live ball, play on. Some say the middle infielders were close. Disagree -- not even close.
The folks who maintain the runner is out are correct and you are wrong. This is not the same principle as an infield fly. It doesn't matter that the infielders could not make a play.
The runner is only exempt if the fielder touches the ball, or if the ball passes the fielder and then touches the runner IMMEDIATELY behind him.
He's out, the bag is not a sanctuary