Skiing crossover New School vs Old school what is faster? ODERMATT VS ZUBCIC
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- This is a study of two different schools of thought on how to crossover/transition from one turn to the next. Marco Odermatt and Filip Zubcic utilise very different tactics/techniques to execute their turns. Both skied great and are great skiers in their own right. I think this season we will see a few battles between them. I look forward to it.
I like to look at racing in a simple way between “line” and “friction" and playing between the two will result in a fast or slow time. Obviously techniques and movements are the direct result of these two outcomes along with equipments (eg wax and speed suits and boot set up) For example: if you want to cut off your line but you are cutting the line tighter than the ski radius will allow you to carve you probably will skid causing extra friction, and friction is a slowing mechanism, but depending on where you do it it might be faster or slower. On a very steep section cutting the line with a skid might negate the friction caused by not carving as gravity and momentum can make up the difference, whereas if you do it on a flat the opposite effect will happen and you will be slower. There are always trade offs and compromises for every decision, but the deciding factors are: “are you on the tightest line possible creating the least friction possible?” Creating different movements as you can see in this video have a cause and effect on friction, one option creating more surface area and the other one less. Just because you are in a more aerodynamic position obviously doesn't always mean you will win if you ski a terrible line. It is always extremely interesting to look at these things. Anyway just some extra thoughts.
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0:00 Start
0:33 Aerodynamics
0:43 Extension transition
0:56 Compact transition
2:17 Mistiming the transition
3:01 Lever Lengths - Спорт
While Odematt gets "Tall" in transition and is less aerodynamic, he is also able to bring more pressure at the top of the turn in the fall-line as he "comes from" the tall position.
well when transitioning compact you can extend during the turn to bring even more pressure while turning making a shorter radius
Exactly!!!
@@moriskehl5991You have to understand what he is saying. He can release earlier because of the turn being done earlier which can make more speed. He has most of the pressure in the fall line. When you push you foot out in the middle of the turn(technically impossible) you are also likely to lose you line.
@@moriskehl5991 You are correct that you get more pressure, but it also comes much sooner than if you go tall. By sucking your knees up in the transition, the energy that is built up in your bent ski is not wasted in lifting your body mass upwards but instead, moves your legs through the transition at lightning speed. If you can learn how to control that energy, you will be pretty much unbeatable.
yep
Love the WC analysis, keep them coming!
😊
Ditto.
spot on about aerodynamics! I never thought about it in the transitions, but it is quite obvius now that you pointed it out! Great video
Thanks. Happy you enjoyed it :)
Thank you for your analysis. Odermatt is the best right now and he is young and so has many more years to be on top. In GS aerodynamics is not as important as acceleration caused by capturing and the release of pressure on the ski. What cannot be noticed in the video is how much ankle bend and leverage Odermatt creates by moving his hips up higher at the initiation over his feet to get leverage on his outside ski which results in the build up of early pressure. Ted Lighety speaks of putting tremendous pressure on the ski at the start of the turn on the outside ski. I believe Odermatt ‘s technique allows for greater efficiency of capturing the pressure early on steep slopes and thus creating more acceleration through the apex and the release and thus more speed regardless of aerodynamics . A simple example of this is a drill you know so well. Get someone to run in a straight line on skis and have and have a SKIER following make a series of turns. Using proper edging and release by the skier following he or she will catch the skier in front. The low position works better on the flat but in my opinion does not work as effectively to get the mass over the base of support as fast on steep runs. I now live in Switzerland and have the chance to see a lot of World Cup races .I note that other top skiers like Schiffrin and Goggia also ski more like Odermatt. They are winning. Marcel Hirscher was amazing but every once in a while there are people who break the rules and yet win because of raw talent and their particular body type. Bode Millar is such an example. I have had the chance to see both of these skiers live a number of times. Your video seems to prefer the lower body position . I think a combination is best and I agree that different body types require adaptation . If you look at video of Odermatt in flatter sections of a course you will see he stays lower at the transition. Also different conditions require different approaches and a broad range of skills to be able to adapt. I had a chance to ski with a Swiss demo team member last week and we spent the day comparing the different styles of technical skiing from around the world. All interesting and equally valid . In racing however ,the technique that is best is the one that is fastest and is the one that wins for the particular racer on the top .
We run a ski camp every summer at Mt Hood, OR with Phil & Steve Mahre. They always say that how each person skis is completely variable depending on their body type. (as you point out). The other thing they point out is that trends on technique come and go every 3-4 years, depending on who's winning. Others try to emulate whether it fits there mechanics or not. This race was a great example of the guys who applied smooth pressure and perfect timing got on the podium. If you watch Tommy's run you will also see perfect timing on 90% of the turns and super smooth turns... where others were trying so hard to stay compact and eventually losing their edge grip or chattering through the turns with all their weight squashed. Kudos to Obermatt for skiing the way that works for him. I think you will see more victories from him this year for sure and probably well down the road. - Thx for the video. I actually forwarded the link to the twins. :)
tommy-ford-perfect-body-type-small-feet-narrow-stance-all-pressure-outsaide-of-the-feet-and-hill-wide-hips-rotating-range-twaise--then-avrege-flexibility-way-above-avrege-able-to-strech-ligaments-way-above-avrege-to-rebound-pelvis-recoil-pelvis-on-lateral-axis-to-neutral-stance-hys-downfall-after-mistake-to-manyturns-to-regein-rythm.
Amazing comparison! Please bring more videos like this. I like how even though they are both top notch racers, they have found a different way to win. Do you roughly now their height and weight? That would also be really telling of how they set up their their transitions.
Keep up the good work.
Great analysis Reilly helped me understand technique a little bit more.
Most contemporary leaders are using "knee retraction" vs vertical unweighting, as it allows for more efficient timing and use of the transition phase onto the new skis bringing them into the rise line sooner and allows for an earlier initiation of the shaped of the turn. Obviously there comes into play personal physiology which helps the timing and initiation of the rise line turns.
Never sacrifice a turn for a tuck. Compact is great if you can manage it for 70 seconds or more while navigating a 25-27 meter course on 30-35 meter skis. A taller transition is easier to control and allows for the buffer needed to manage terrain.
Fantastic video ! I understand my own transitions and instinctive habits in them much better.
I started skiing in the 90’s, so I’m old school. My father and ski instructors always told me “stand up, and get down”, but it’s very classic Italian’s ski school style of skiing.
Great vid however! Always cool to know something new 👌🏻
Thanks for sharing!
brutal analysis 👏🏼👏🏼 makes me re-think the transition advantages
Compact transition was supposed to be the next revolution when I started racing in the early 2000's but I think it mostly made people ski more statickly than they should since it is harder to time compact-quick extension-flexion rather than "full extension" and then flexion. One could also argue that a complete extension allow more flexion travel hence creating more energy to bend the ski, turn short and accelerate more. So while aero is worse, energy production is greater with less lactate in your legs. Most ski clubs dropped the compact technic by the 2010 era focusing more on forward extension which is guess could be thought about as an hybrid. Nonetheless I still use compact transition since I find it extremely efficient when you have ground movements as it allows to swallow it and keep contact with the snow. Anyway my 2cents but interesting video there that got me thinking so thanks :)
fascinating video, so much to think about. Just coming at this from a recreational ski viewpoint. Utilizing the concept of what i call compression turns and letting terrain aid in transition i think would really help in this application of transitioning. Transition happening only from pelvis down, feet/knees brought up to waist - no up and down movement from pelvis up - which i think is ultimate goal, least for me. There is a vast difference when watch these two, the taller standing one you can really notice the up and down, the whole upper body opening up, body standing tall - the other one, as you say "compact", it's all happening from underneath his waist. i been watching a lot of speed skating videos lately, it's like they got a ruler on their backs, cuz of how they transfer their weight ... thanks again for the video.
OMG thank you! Coaches don't talk about this kind of stuff often enough or with enough specificity. I tend to use a combination of both. Compact or flexed cross under transitions are more tiring and can get really risky when course conditions deteriorate. Being so flexed means you have no where to go if you need to flex to absorb variations in a torn up course. But IMHO compact transitions are a bit faster. Seems to keep your center of mass moving in more of a straight line both laterally and vertically.
PS: The bass is track in the background is overwhelming sounds too good on my system to pay attention to the dialogue lol.
Really enjoyed this series of videos, Especially the analysis of the women's slalom Chapo
Thanks Mike. I am glad you enjoyed it.
A very persceptive analysis and explaination. Thanks Reilly.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks Reilly! It’s very interesting 👌
I have been taking notice of these different aproaches since mid 90s as a coach. Personally, as I infere you do, I prefer to retract the legs and avoid to move the center of mass up, but that requires perfect timing and it is very risky on steeps. On the other side I consider aerodinamics of secondary importance un comparison to clean turns and correct line. Aerodinamics play a more important role in flats and speed. I know the santa Caterina slope and consider it very flat, but weather and snow conditions put zubcic in risk of making errors with his aproach, what happened in the first run. Lets see what happens on steep courses later on the season... Interesting coments as usual. Yours is my new favourite channel about ski racing technique. Thanks
Thanks for the comment... It will be interesting to see for sure how the steeps go
I can't wait for the next GS race now. Thank you
I am looking forward to it too!
Hi, Paul. Thanks a lot for a great video. Could you please explain in few words what do you mean about "boot and binding set up" for compact transition?
Both tactics can be very effective. A big part of what you do is which technique suits you better. The one thing I like more about the old school is while it may not be as aero you have more up unweighting which creates more acceleration out of the ski and more glide time on a flat ski during the transition period. I think you should look at glide times to see which is more effective, that needs to come into play as part of your assessment.
bravo Reilly, I believe you help us a lot to understand better about elite ski racing! It will be very interesting to see if Marko's approach in transitions, will work for him at steeper and iciest courses, and if he have the necessary time to use it there, at the next race in Alta Badia. And the most important for me is that you are not Dogmatic... Can't wait to reed your next analysis! Thanks
I think a course that will hold him up might be Alta Badia depending on course set... This could play into the way Zubcic skis... He just is skiing riskier so obviously has more chance to make a mistake, but as you have seen over these two days he can be the fastest at the back of the pack and the front of the pack so it makes him dangerous all the time. Very interesting year so far I am enjoying it
Interesting stuff, thanks!
Jay Garbarino, you absolute nailed it! Congrats
Great stuff. Super interesting as always. Personally I think that a very important aspect here is the gravity drop (I don't call it that but I think you or some other projected member used the term). Since he goes up higher he has more "gravity to drop", which allows him to have more vertical up-acceleration in the turn phase, which in turn gives better grip and tighter turn. Then you also have a more smooth initial steering angle, instead of having a significant initial steering angle which you easily get with the other transition.
can be... you just have to look what creates more distance travelled (either with center of mass or line).
since who goes up "higher", I assume Marco?
When the skier such as Marco is tall in transition, he can have the "smooth initial steering angle" or can manipulate as little edge angle as needed. The "compact" or retracted transition can only initiate with a high edge angle, thus really slow in grippy snow.
Great skiers have to be able to do lots of things - including sing edging to hold back their hips and releasing that energy for exceleration between the turns - absorbing reduces the ability to accelerate through the release of that energy down the hill. Sometimes an athlete has too much energy and must absorb. Great skiers do a lot of things well and are trained to perform that technique when it is required. Great analysis on many elements.
Great video! I don't know much about ski racing, but the analyis in this video was very interesting. I might watch the races next week!
I am happy you will watch the race on the weekend :)
All mountain and racing basics are very similar. Youngsters that were in race programs learn technique basic and are excellent all mountain skiers.
Nice Analysis Reilly! Great to watch
Thanks Marius!
It is possible that he is using his body as an aero-brake, setting up corner entry so that he can better 'use' his skis to load them for additional spring load at the corner exit point enabling him to carry a higher corner exit speed which is beneficial and potentially faster given the length of time he can hold this additional speed. I'm not saying this is happening, as you would need lots of timing devices all over the course to see where he is actually gaining time, but the principal of faster corner-exit-speed is real in many racing-type of events
Loading skis faster usually means you have to be travelling faster which allows you to incline into the turn faster. If you slow down or break this does the opposite but, he skis the line great to it makes up for it.... This is a very interesting concept "but the principal of faster corner-exit-speed is real in many racing-type of events" this is totally true in car racing and motoGP but skiing is a little different due to how ski edges work and interact with the snow.
@@ReillyMcGlashan if he's coming from a taller position, he can use his falling load to compress the ski more - & slalom being a 'slow' sport, where aero isn't nearly as important as in faster sports, his use of additional ground force to create rebound load may be helping. Again, not saying it's happening, but in Golf, where measuring ground forces is now being studied, it's amazing the vertical forces being generated by the longest hitters (up to 5x their body wt)
Recognized this right away. This is how you create speed with a bike on a flat pump track without ever turning the pedals. You can do the same thing on skis or roller skates.
Priceless ! Dude, you are such a good observer. Thank you very very much for this valuable information. Do you think it can be applied to junior ski racers ? Or is it way too early to consider the option of compact vs extension transition and more suitable for FIS athletes ?
Makes fun to watch these videos. In German TV former WC-racer Fritz Dopfer said, the reason why Odermatt is that fast with the extension is, that he is able to keep the hip higher than his opponents and keeps the ski more under his body.
Great video, thanks :)
I enjoyed the analysis. I believe what could make it even better would be to video overlay both skiers on same gates.
if the e cameras would not move it could be possible... unfortunately the cameras move... i tried already
I’m a 5’10” masters racer I’m assuming I’m in the larger level arena? My boots and plates are Head standard race settings. Should I add angle to my boots? I’m not the most limber guy in the world but can squat but not as I used to do as a young child so it’s not my specialty even though I do them year round with stretching
I like that term, "Compact Transition".
I have been using the terms Cross Under vs Cross Over..... for these two transition types.
Cross Over = Center of Mass moving over base of support. (Moving the body over the feet)
Cross Under = Moving the base of support, under the center of mass. (Moving the feet, under the body)
Reilly can you make a video about boot adjustments to help with that compact transition?
Great analysis!1 Keep up the good work.
Recall back in the days when Mr GS Ted Ligety was beating Marcel Hersher by a second and a half? I remember one post- race interview where Hersher was so out of breath he could hardly talk. Not surprising because his skis were about a foot longer than him!
A lot changed! Marcel probably spent the entire summer in the weight room, and the FIS abandoned the long straight planks they were mandating, allowing a smaller guy like Hersher to ski in a style that made full use of his cat-like reflexes. ( I recall the first time I saw Kjetil Andre Aamodt free skiing. (You instantly knew you were watching athletic genius.)
My guess is that the Hersher style is inherently faster than Ted's round turn, lean them over approach if both were at the peak of their careers and on the optimal equipment for their physical characteristics.
Awesome!!!
Very interesting analysis. It makes sense to test and find the best technique for winning, but when just skiing for fun, what is actually THE technique? I know it may change depending on the country. I m from canada (L3) and i have been skiing for the past 25 years more with the new school style (recreational), thinking it is THE way to properly ski. Eventhough at the end of each day the last runs , with fatigue in, look more old school.
Excellent !!
Glad you like it!
During my recent training, my trainer is a big fan of new school, Even though I am no race, it is fun to try different things.
Have you tried putting their physical abilities into the equation regarding the compact position? Being able to pull of GS turns like that and still be able to stay in front position takes a lot of strength and Zubcic is known to be one of the most physically prepared skiers in top 30. Maybe his power and strength allows him to ski that way like Hirscher did and eventually have the edge over other athletes in races with courses where and endurance and strength play a big role in the final result
he’s a one szn wonder. cant even compare with odermatt, and comparing zubcic with hirscher is like comparing messi with myself 💀💀
You’re pretty aerodynamic Reilly 😀
😂... yes I am... but not heavy enough to take advantage of it 😂
It's that Ninja Turtle effect.
Glad you did this . Marco's transitions is what stood out for me when I first saw the video of his winning run-- and it seemed as contradictory to modern ski teaching. I also see some extension in transition by the Italian women skiers. I am beginning to think there is no right or wrong way of skiing but rather what suits an individuals need to find balance, slowdown or speed up if those are the desired results
Generally a compact transition is faster due to distance (of the COM) travelled alone, plus aerodynamics also then have a factor, but compact transitions are harder to time (easier to make a mistake as you saw in his first run), and only possible for those who have their fore/aft alignment dialed in as well. So I dodn't think Odermatt has his setup for this, but his setup works for him as he has shown a few times now so I don't think you would change it (maybe over the summer to experiment with timing would be interesting)
Reilly - nice. Agree with all but the guess that boot/binding set up is causing the differences in front seat / back seat.
fascinating
Is there any correlation between GS transition type and whether they are an SL specialist?
Not that has stood out to me personally... Noel Clements an SL specialist raced in the GS but didn't show any type of specific transition.
I love this video and a really nice explanation Reilly. I see it this way, as the law of physics dictates "for every action there is a reaction", and therefore, all that excess of extension will have to come accompanied by a corresponding absorption later. And, as you properly spotted it, that is also extra energy consumption. So, if you extend too much, you will also have to absorb more (meaning he will have so slam the breaks at the turn using his edges, to carve deeper right at the gate).
By keeping himself on a lower stance, the crossover/transition should come "more" from the combination of friction + gravity + centripetal force (the friction force exerted by the inner edge of the outer leg (all body weight is there but quickly dwindling) and being rotated into the outer edge now), more than the disconnection of the skis from the ground (at the extreme you swing them "up in the air") by the prior extension of your legs (thus, creating an "aqua-planning" effect with no contact/friction at all).
But I presume the reason for more extension is due to the "risk" factor. If the skier solely relies on the edges and forces, he runs the risk of getting stuck and potential "miss" the turn. On the contrary, if he swings the skis up in the air, he can now accommodate the edges "at will", but by the expense of the extra (and necessary) absorption later. My two cents.
That is a great summary! Thank you for the comment!
Nooooooo, this is not at all what Newton's third law tells us! Actio=Reactio is definitely the second most misused and misunderstood concept in physics, right after Einsteins principle of relativity.
Also, what you call "excess of extension" may well create speed: ua-cam.com/video/5tVlAlZ9wfM/v-deo.html
@@linesofturns thats a really cool video you linked... I do this with roller blades a lot too, this not so relevant to skiing a gs course though as ground reaction is the most important part... He did mention in the video the extension comes at the apex (middle) where he then describes it in a burm, this would be the equivalent of being full extended at the gate (which all GS skiers are and need to be to deal with the forces with that much edge angle) so just going by the video you linked he is pumping with "full extension at the apex" (middle of the turn)... to pump you use extension and flexion... if the middle of the turn/apex is the most extension as he states, what would be his transition? 😅
@@linesofturns no intention to create a "physics debate" on Reilly's post, but the reason why you can create "speed" in the video you've just shared is precisely based on the action/reaction principle and the fact that there is "friction" there. That video explains that you don't need to pedal but just use your own "weight", an action force, which is countered by a normal force from the ground (reaction) which, combined with other rotational forces, serves to propel the bicycle forward. Without friction, skidding will happen and it will prevent propulsion (just like when you walk on ice). Hope it helps.
@@ReillyMcGlashan but also: "notice, at the apex of the turn my hips are the lowest, but in between turns, my hips are the highest" IMO this is a more accurate description of what he effectively does in the video than the part that you have quoted.
Anyway, I totally agree with you that "pumping" or "pushing" is not of primary importance in ski racing, except maybe when skiing relatively easy open gates at not too high speeds.
However, what you definitely want to avoid is the opposite of pumping, ie the dissipation of energy through a bending of the (outside) leg while the ski is still fully edged and deformed and thus exerting a large centripetal force onto the skier. Athletes who try to stay extremely low in the transition are more likely to do exactly that (see the first few seconds of this video). Withstanding the extreme forces that modern racing skis generate is easier with a somewhat straighter outside leg, even if this comes at the cost of a bit more air drag. Marta Bassino is another very good example of this.
Staying down in transition helps me keep my pelvis open which gives me more control with edging my new inside ski...
Perhaps a fresh analysis/ comparison w. Sölden 2022 where Marco came out on top .. ie. What are the keys to his success? I remember, Killy was the pioneer to down 'dynamics' (down weighting) although he raced very upright at times. George Joubert's 'How to Ski the New French Way' (1967) is a Classic especially with it's sequence photos.
🤙
😊
Down unweighting vs edge roll over. The crouched edge rollover gives an aerodynamic advantage, but the muscle energy expended over a turny course is immense. Sloppiness with the latter technique will result, unless the skier is super human (and some are close).The video is correct. If down unweighting is done correctly with a flowing edge lay down with no skidding - it will win.
yes just depends if that person can time it correctly... we will see next week on the steeper courses who can get the timing.
Skiers like Odermatt (and myself) have long legs and a narrower stance because we are tall the thin. Another skier that has this physique is Petra Vlhova. Having long legs gives the skier immense leverage and can even lead to over pressuring the front of their boots/skis. The downsides to this anatomy is with the long legs there is usually a narrow pelvic girdle and therefore ski in a narrower stance. Last year Petra would have won races but she was "jammed up" with her narrow stance and she had difficulty getting angulation and she was hopping from turn to turn.
If you do the simple skiing stance exercise while standing and try to angulate with a narrow stance, the age angle is not very large and you get "jammed up" easily. Whereas with a wider stance it is easier to angulate and also gives greater stability. This actually is hip angulation because the knee has very little bend laterally.
Speaking of physique, women have a looser pelvic girdle and have a different angulation regime than men. Strengthening exercises for women in the hip muscles and using more canting can somewhat alleviate the classic "A frame" style that many women have. Odermatt is 6' 0" (1.84m), weighs 181 lbs (82kg); and Vlhova is 5'11' (1.80m) , weighs 161lbs (68kg). So both are quite thin. Traditional slalom skiers are built like "fireplugs" and there body is wide and short. GS skiers have traditionally been taller skiers. Markus Wasmeier had narrow hips and was a beautiful skier to watch in GS but he got jammed up from time to time. Downhill skiers tend to be just large people.
Great message bro, very interesting points
I’m not a racer but I prefer extension in transition in my skiing, I feel I am set up for a stronger turn and higher edge angle. I am tall, large frame and long legs, not sure if there is anything in that.
As long as you have fun all is good. I 'play' with all kinds techniques, mixing it up. It also depends for whom you're skiing, what are you trying to do or show. Then there is the condition of the slope, the snow etc. etc. As long as I feel sporty and at the edge of comfy, I'm happy.
Love it and great to learn
Maybe new school is more aerodynamic BUT I think the old school extension is more effective on creating conduction during the very first part of the turn... so I think we gotta see them on a very steep slope like Alta Badia or Adelboden.
In that slopes I go with old school as a better choice. Maybe the new compact school is suitable on not very steep slopes like this one.
I am not sure what you mean by conduction? but yes everyone will see on the 21st how skiers perform... I think with these guys it is down to who doesn't make mistakes... everyone is so close up there now it is very interesting.
@@ReillyMcGlashan hem, sorry, I am italian and we talk about "conductive skiing" when you deform the ski and use the edge to control the turn... in poor words, the action you have to do to carve (instead of the old school "drifting").
I think that extension and consecutive progressive comrpession make the carving skiing easyer and it permitts you to do it on Steed and icy slopes, where new school is more "dangerous".
@@mementometallum571 Ok I understand what you are saying now 😊
One obvious thing is that odermatt often puts a tiny bit of flat-ski steering in the beginning of the turn - this allows his lines to be a little bit more "Z-like" than "S-like". Closer to the theoretically shorter line than the fastest. I'd expect this to result in braking and friction but he can pull it off, due to wizardry, snow conditions or whatever.... Now, is it more difficult to do that steering manoeuver with a compact transition? As a recreational skier i don't know for sure, but anedoctically I recall that when shaped skis arrived 20+ years ago, a little book I had bought advised a compact transition exactly as a way to get rid of the straight-ski habit of steering at the beginning of the turn...
This is a new description and reasoning applied to "up-unweighting," a technique that was introduced in the early 1970s. I think the idea then was that it was a quicker way to change edges and it kept the center of gravity lower.
Ski shape has changed so that the "up and over" protocol is not necessary to move through initiation, transition and line shaped turn. Less dynamically built skis required the 'old' technique to bring them into a transition phase as the torsion was less in the skis. The newer products allow for the ski to be pressured more gradually and dynamically to get the speeds now being generated.
I had to laugh at this "traditional" vs "new school" comparison. Sorry, but the "new school" way of transitioning into the next turn was common back in the late '60's and was called "down unweighting". It is nothing new. Both have their place where they are the better method, but the more upright position is a bit "safer" to be in if something goes wrong and you need to recover. The down unweighting method takes less energy to initialize and is faster edge to edge since you are only moving (raising) your legs, whereas in up unweighting takes more energy to initialize since you are raising your whole body mass, making it slower edge to edge. Down unweighting, however, makes you more prone to getting in the back seat, and requires more forward lean and a higher heel in the boots to force you into a more forward position.
Good call! I remember the down unweighting and up unweighting methods! It seems new school has now become old school and the old school is becoming fashionable again! Never mind, it keeps the instructors in a job LOL. Seriously though, it is great to see techniques being discussed in a 'situation' approach as distinct from a 'mine is right / better' dogmatic approach. More please Reilly - it is keeping me sane during lockdowns!
Clearly both of these techniques are necessary to deal with various situations on a race course and in free skiing. Why do you use the terms old vs. new school. These are both current desirable techniques.
Odermatt accelerates out of the turn by lowering his center of gravity into the swing and lifting himself out of the turn. This can only be done on a steep hill and not on a flat hill. Odermatt becomes like a cannon ball that is thrown out of the swing. This gives Odermatt acceleration out of the turn. You can't create acceleration out of the turn if you stand static like Zubcic. In return, Zubcic creates speed. By keeping his center of gravity fixed. And let his skis work. Which is actually better suited to slightly flatter courses.
with a straight position in the beginning of the turn you can bring more weight and power into the turn.
Technically that is impossible. If someone has a constant weight of 85kg, how does someone bring more "weight" into the turn? In reality, through energy expenditure you are technically getting lighter with each breath you make/ turn you make.
@@ReillyMcGlashan
physically? G forces?
in skiing 2-3g
if you jump from 2meters you land maybe with the double of your weight on the ground
@@zeiter94 he's mixing up mass and weight. Weight as in Force (N) = mass(kg) x acceleration
You are correct. Newton's 2nd law of motion
Отлично видео! Поставьте представителя "новой школы" на 190см классики и попросите проехать трасу специального слалома. Я с удовольствием посмотрю это аниме. Или на машине формулы один проехать Париж-Дакар. Потом поговлрим про технику вождения.
known this since the 70s
I think that you forget an important aspect : they all need to control their speed to keep good lines in curves....thus, it does not matter so much the aerodynamic in transition. If your transition is more aerodynamic (for at last 0.1s...), that just means that you will have to control speed a litle bit more in curves, that don't give more performances. In downhill it would be a different story. You can compare to Formula1, the best ones are not the speeder in straight but those who have the most downforces to have a better control in curves. In geant races, most of the time is spent in curves....
Your personal body build and mechanic wil also define the technique you will adopt or even create a new one. 😉
100% agree
Awesome video quality, i can only dream of that level....
One thing though:
I don't believe Odermatt skis like this because of energy conservation, i think the technique does have advantages over a compact transition, i.e. more pressure early in the turn coming from the weight of his body "falling" down.
Spot on. But Harald Harrb (PMTS)was explaining this at least 10 years ago.
I have followed H Harb for over 20 years , what they are talking about now .. he talked about since the beginning of PMTS... His instructional videos are very informative on all these topics..
I miss Epicski forum, and all those arguments.
Two other points I would add are that extending during the release can disrupt balance as the center of mass is moving higher and being pushed away from the snow. Also, the transition is slower because of the constant extension followed by flexion instead of remaining compact throughout the transition.
Marcel style
Старая (Одерматт)и новая (Зубчич) школы - это понятия относительные. Разве Одерматт не побеждал Зубчича?
I really love how you put this video togheter. But I strongly disagree to a lot of the claims youre presenting in this video. I think aerodynamics is not as important as how a skiier is solving the dynamics (especially on the conditions we saw in the race) in their GS- skiing. In the example of Marcel Hirscher transition; I think he gets his hip high enough, but he is obtaining that hip-position a little bit later. I also think hes a bad example to use, cause hes doing it so efficient that ita only possible to see for a trained eye in slow motion.
I just made a video of how I classify compact vs extended ua-cam.com/video/A-RrcT7lV6k/v-deo.html
@@ReillyMcGlashan ok, just saw it. Good stuff!
Now i get what you mean by youre definition of a transition ;)
What video editing tool are you using btw?
What is faster? The fastest....
I LOVE my short femurs :)
I hate you
Mine are unusually long and I think a disadvantage in skiing.
Well I don't agree with you at all on this topic. The main thing imho here is about what is happening at the end of the turn. If you have rebound or reaction of the skis because you turned very short, then you have to control the flying of the skis doing some retraction (like opptraken). This means you retract not for less pressure but for more contact with the snow. In SL this is mandatory in almost of the turns; that is why you can see there only very low transitions in SL. It is not a question of long or short "bones" haha.
When you don't have rebound from your last turn, you have the choice: staying very lown or being centered in the next transition: The orthodox way is to be centered and low : see here ua-cam.com/video/vIsKLcEYrmA/v-deo.html
You shouldn't use the term of "extension" since the aim of the skier is to be centered in transition, so it is a fore/aft movement instead, with lots of ankle flexion.
" It is not a question of long or short "bones" haha." Please go learn some basic biomechanics and then I welcome you back to make some comments. The fact that you don't understand basic biomechanics, lever lengths and anatomy isn't your fault if you have never studied the topic, everyone starts somewhere.
@@ReillyMcGlashan well @3:47 your arguments made me laugh :) "Marco's boot and Marco's long levers prevent him doing more compact transition" lol
@@magnificoas388 go do some study. It has nothing to do with long levers it's the ratio of the different lengths between tib/fib, femur and torso (and a more advanced version on top of ratios is weight distribution) Long levers often amplify certain things but shorter people have the same problems if their lever ratios are off. This will definitely effect how low one "should" transition. Some people should not go to low at the transition as it will send them back onto the tails too far. Unless their boot/binding set up compensates. Even then there are limits from FIS to height etc for boots and plates so you can only do so much. You are laughing because you don't know 🤷🏻♂️. Before you laugh go learn the basics then you will understand
@@ReillyMcGlashan Since I am a physicist I do understand your arguments. What is weird is that you apply them to Marco: do you actually think his boots are not set up for a compact transition? Do you actually think his morphology prevent him from being freely very low? We are talking about Odermatt there :)
@@magnificoas388 Like any video analysis a lot just comes from experience in watching certain things. Unless I measured him up in person it is just speculation. I have set up 100’s of skiers boots for this exact thing and when you see and measure many peoples personal physiology you recognise certain aspects or traits just from watching people ski. To me he has a short tib/fib/ to long femur ratio just from observing his skiing (once again I wouldn’t know until I measured him up in person) This is not me being critical in a bad way towards him, everyone is built totally different so there is nothing wrong with this. I am not sure setting his boots up to increase or decrease lever lengths would help him as he skis great with the set up he has, just his technique adapts to it which one of the many reasons why you may see him rise more than some others. There are huge amounts of boot modifications to change lever ratios which I do every season to many skiers to set them up more ideal for their goals in their skiing if their personal lever lengths don’t match. There are pro’s and cons to each mod but that is up to the skiers to test and feel what works. Here is a video explaining basics of anatomy lever lengths, and as you say you are a physicist it will be interesting for you. ua-cam.com/video/p9d5cgH9SSs/v-deo.html
Are you talking about the old school that was the new school PSIA fraud or "the New way to ski" 1955 Willie Schlefler which is the current 'new school" as the Swiss demonstrate?.
text doesn't translate well but the illustrations were all I could comprehend in kindergarten.
text doesn't translate well but the illustrations were all I could comprehend in kindergarten.
text doesn't translate well but the illustrations were all I could comprehend in kindergarten.
What you say about aerodynamics is correct. Maybe Odermatt was able to ski a faster line because of the transition he used? Marcel Hirscher was the master of what you call old school, who (as we know) won the overall world cup 8 years in a row. Maybe you are missing something. www.ronlemaster.com/images/posted-11-2015/content/Hirscher-Lenzerheide-2014-GS-1-13x13-B_large.html
Aerodynamics are better in a compact transition + distance travelled of the COM in a compact transition are also shorter. From a distance + physics standpoint it is faster, but the timing is much harder so it is easier to make a mistake....
I have to disagree about Hirscher though. I think Marcel "more often" shows a compact transition. Marcel has his own technique that I think doesn't refer to other people. I have a video about it coming out in two days.
The distinct extension was the element that stood out and distinguished Hirscher and Shiffrin most from the rest. Others have adapted and you can see them move more now than they did in the past. Again there is no question about what you say re aerodynamics, but staying low is not always the most efficient way of doing it. Which is why you see them move more in the critical, often steeper and more offset passages and the reason why extending forward brings the best results also for recreational skiers that want to ski a stronger turn on top of their outside ski and not get pushed back and inside.
@@KlausMair hello Klaus, could you please elaborate the "distinct extinsiom" term. thanks in advance
@@levaneristavi7371 the up and forward that also Odermatt is doing in the clip above
@@KlausMair Hirscher definitely uses one of the lowest transitions and even more so on the steeps later in his career when he took over GS from Ted. Earlier in his career he had a more pronounced up in GS.
Marco non sta andare a casa di jampier sebastianetti a Chamonix è mio zio è passato in estate non mettevi a gridare per Mogadiscio oh sono di Chamonix sia di mamma che di papà ciao Matteo Valentino matteino 😊