I can't stand that "you said you think this thing, but you have no evidence" but then they just claim something is a fact when it's not supported by any evidence. It's just that arrogant certainty from a point of ignorance that I can't stand. "You are not asserting that your belief is a fact, therefore it loses to my claim because I say it's a fact."
Yup this is a typical problem. they think they can read in English and they have all the knowledge in the universe. the critical thinking is the key. as well as some analytic skills. btw Vaus lack that skill (the analytics one) as well because analytically u can disprove some of these points easily. for example the execs death I think Vaus thinks that the guy would understand what that mean. but i think to drive the point home he need to show him the numbers and MATH!!
@@coaldoubt2879 In my experience, "do your own research" means "I heard this from some random people on the internet or some obscure unreliable source, but I don't want to say that."
@@skylerasbridge3507 Yeah, the number is low, but you're forgetting losing parents, so it's not like they're not affected negatively by others dying or becoming permanently disabled as a result from an infection.
I'm at the roughly 41 minute mark and this man has managed to, within the span of a few minutes, confuse his own voice for Vaush's (literally saying Vaush said something that he himself said 20 seconds earlier) then just utterly not understand how the elementary school concept of division and percentages works. I had to pause. I couldn't do it. I'm genuinely concerned for this guy, is he okay? Did he sleep at all the night before this? Is he under the influence of something? I haven't commented on a UA-cam video in like 10 fucking years but I just can't do this man.
Me - I love OG Vaush debates, I wish he would do more. Me an hour into the debate - This is awful, people are too stupid for their own good. I'm never watching one of these again. -- Rinse and repeat on a monthly cycle.
@@rainbowkrampus True. Waiting on the JQ shoe to drop, or even the race realism shoe, really kept it fresh. This is more of a “banality of evil” sort of vibe.
@@nofasciesallowed6213 Being vaccinated doesn't matter if your point is telling other to not get it. That's still a net harm imo, especially with this dude's insistence on making the absolute dumbest arguments. This dude was the kind of dipshit in highschool that thought he could do a book report on a videogame magazine.
@@rainbowkrampus I was told that was a racist for mentioning that most governments in the world are not democratically elected. And because I didn’t know what YT is (still don’t) I’m not “one of them”. She said “you’re half Dominican and you don’t know what YT is? You aren’t one of us” Outing idiot bigotry one day at a time.
The best debates are the ones so circular that Vaush goes from frustrated, to laughing, to so depressed he doesn’t even want to continue the debate, even though he’s winning
Winning an argument with someone this one dimensional feels about as pyrrhic as it gets, by way of lost brain cells (as the title mentions) and general existential angst.
You realize that it’s only the western countries trying to ram mandates down everyone’s throats right? There’s are the same people that continue gutting hospital infrastructure and will never let m4a through. Y’all are picking a side big time with the most corrupt elements of the establishment
That was rough. When people say "People should have the right to chose." they just mean "should have the right to not experience consequences" Then say "Businesses shouldn't have the right to run their business the way they want despite consequences" It's frustrating having to explain or listen to someone explain that's not how the world works. Especially to adults. You have the patience of a saint.
@@kg356 That's how a lot of things work under capitalism. Vaush even gave a great example with vaccines and babies. That's how it works with offensive language and clothes and when someone says "I should have the choice to go to work naked. Ok, you DO have a choice but you'll probably be shamed, fired and arrested. Or as Vaush said, you DO have the choice to say the n word to your boss, but don't belly ache when you get fired. All of capitalism is coercive, but these ppl wanna pick and choose what gives consequences. If someone stole good to survive and the consequences was getting beat by police and arrested, these same ppl would say "That's what he gets." I have my own issues with the mandates, but signaling it like its the government forcing their hand with no free will is simply not true.
@@kg356 although its important to look at why a job requires vaccination. Its essentially due to the fact that you will be in a workspace with either colleagues or customers both of which the company doesn’t want to put in any unnessecary risk so you can choose to follow the company’s requirements (which are in the interest of the wellbeing of the majority of the people at your workplace rather than your own individual choice to not receive a vaccine) or you can fail to meet the company’s requirements and be fired.
@@kg356 It is coercive, but also other people have a right to not get sick and die. If you were coming to work with a contageous disease and you were just throwing up in the hallway and refused to leave then other people would absolutely have a right to protect their health by forcing you off the company property and maybe even firing you if there's a threat you might do that again. You don't get to just cry 'my freedom' and then put other people in danger if you want to live in a society. If you really want to go unvaccinated so badly then you're free to leech off of someone who might take you or you're free to live in the woods and fish for your own food or whatever, but the second you bring that threat to other people who aren't complicit in this then you're directly infringing on their rights and you will be punished for it. It's the same as if you just started drunkenly waving a pistol around and playing Russian roulette with your coworkers. Sure, they MIGHT not be hurt, and you have a right to bear arms. But you don't have a right to endanger other people on a whim because you feel like your freedom of choice is more important than other people's freedom to feel safe in their workplace.
@@DavidWilliams-by2ne its not about justification though. The whole point is that its not an infringement on a person’s ability to choose to not get vaccinated. You have the freedom to choose to assault someone but doing so has serious consequences.
It blows my mind how someone can have an encyclopedic knowledge of something but all their data is bad. This dude probably puts in 40 hours a week collecting bad data. He had an answer for every question, and all his answers were wrong.
I know what this guy does. He is looking for sources to back up with beliefs so anything that slightly backs up what he thinks is all he is searching for. He is not taking the extra steps to actually figure out the full picture.
This debate has me trekking cross-country to Yellowstone so I can do the big reset. Oh, god. This has happened before, hasn’t it? We’re in a causal loop. We’re gonna be stuck trying to undo this cancerous-ass debate for eternity.
@Dark Skon Did you ever figure out why Vaush kept asking you about other vaccines and what would be necessary to allow people to make those decisions for themselves
“Natural immunity” or as the real scientists call it “post-infection survivor immunity” isn’t as consistent person to person as a vaccine, because each infection is different
Yep and variants tend to beat that "immunity" also 1 in 4 infected getting long haulers they didn't get well to be immune. So the idea of "natural immunity" be superior is literally insane.
@David Let me ask you a question, what is the point in having natural immunity? Why do you want it? To not get infected. Right? So you get infected... in order to not get infected. Can you really not see how fuking studpid that is? It's like quitting your job in order to not get fired, it makes no sense. Also, then you have to deal with all the possible long term consequences of getting covid like possible lung damage, brain inflammation, death etc. Personally my throat hurt for 6 months after I tested negative, and I have family member who never got back to full health even 1 and a half year later. Why would you want that? Why would not just get the vaccine instead?
@@LizStaples how can you people be so scientifically illiterate.. your repeating nonsense hypothesis never confirmed by a urging just repeated. the attempt to dismiss natural immunity is one of the most disgraceful anti science nonsense Ive whitnessed. it's all based on a braindead idea that pushing any alternative will dissuade vaccine update. it's actually sickening
so in isreal they said natural immunity is over 10x better than the vax. you do realise the vax produces different anti bodies response too. some people get high anti bodies some low. this is really poor understanding of science
Anyone who comes in puffing their chest about data over outlier studies while requesting evidence of other studies that prove already settled science are honestly arguing more in bad faith than those that say ‘do your own research’ or some shit like that.
I remember someone in 2020 citing a paper from the 1980s related to a lack of wound infections in one surgery after masks were no longer used. The study sample size was small and based in a sterile surgery. Moreover, it was about wound infection NOT virus transmissions.
This one doctor said this one thing once and I believe them because they're a doctor. "What about every other doctor?" No I don't believe every other doctor because they're doctors.
Every time Vaush made a good assertion backed up by solid data, it's dismissed because he can't prove it to an absolute certainty. And every time this kid makes a wildly inaccurate assertion with little if any proof, Vaush's counterargument is dismissed because he can't DISPROVE it to an absolute certainty. He's giving Vaush an impossible bar to clear, and giving himself a very low bar to clear. The epitome of bad faith argument.
It's because people forget that scientists/researchers use words differently than laypeople. I did sociological research for 3 years and used common words differently all time and had to define it using research within my write up.
@@jwomackandcheese73 I'd say this is a factor in research->reporting/general population understanding. However, here I'd say it's closer to someone reading a headline and using an articles as sources without reading the article.
As frequently demonstrated with people with shit views on things, they'll often pull out sources that say the opposite of the thing they claim it does.
If that guy didn’t even know the basic way to turn a number into a percentage (41:20) I def don’t trust him to interpret complex covid data accurately and in good faith
Thats the best way to discredit an argument you dont like. Highlight a mistake they made in their hour long argument, take that mistake (or several in this guys case) and use that to discredit the entire argument. It's easy, and that way you dont ever have to challenge your own opinions and world views.
@@dantheman4838 Would you trust a helicopter pilot who never set foot in flight school and had to be corrected on the amount of rotor blades on the helicopter he was showing you? Or would you maybe write him off and find someone else to fly you around?
@@ShazyShaze Are you saying we shouldn't trust Vaush's opinions on medical matters (and all other issues he's not directly educated in), because the last time I checked Vaush is no medical expert either, nor are most of the politicians, media editors and pro vaxxers who are currently advocating for vaccine mandates. What you said is true but it can be said for the majority of people on both sides of this debate.
No I think he genuinely didn't understand the ultimate conclusion of his argument with the baby thing. He kept getting fixated on the fact that the babies couldn't make the choice. Even after Vaush 20 times repeated "then they'd choose as adults just as we are doing with covid" he was way to stuck on the baby part. I don't think his brain cells could circulate that much information.
“But what if this happens? I also have no data that implies it does.” “But what if it doesn’t?” “But that’s just a hypothetical, you have to provide data!”
This guy was wild. He truly believes that in order to prove something happened, you just have to prove that it's POSSIBLE for that thing to happen. He genuinely doesn't understand that you need to prove that the thing DID happen, in order to have proved that the thing did happen. He's like a mathematician who doesn't understand that x=x, regardless of what x is.
but if x=1 but you don't know that, how can you say x=x? that would be saying x=1, but you don't know that, so how can you make that claim? how did you reach the conclusion that x=1? sorry about that
@PolySaken ...I was being facetious. I thought the "sorry about that" was enough of a marker for sarcasm, but I guess not. I apologize for making you waste your time with that explanation.
No, he believes that in order to prove something happened, HE just needs to prove it's possible for that thing to happen. He has no standard of proof for others because he only believes what he wants to.
18:55 "If it's per capita that's something I gotta look in" he says while looking at a chart that says "per 100,000" Honestly, I think leftists could convert more people just by providing science and media literacy lessens to the public. Vaush you gotta do a reading 101 video for the right wingers since you gave us leftists the rhetoric 101 video.
@@lallig8860 I was just live commenting, it's not my takeaway from the whole video, just a funny line that exemplified how stupid the guest was. Edit: and I do stand by the point that rightwingers tend to not know how to read and digest information correctly. If more people were informed and literate more people would agree with leftists. I think that's fairly evident from the fact that academics tend to be more left leaning.
@@Yashiro-nene_dies Not to mention that this is the standard AGE he's looking at per hospitalised, not the percentage of hospitalised people compare to non-hospitalised. Ohh, this guy is nuts lol
Like I could understand their position if we didnt know the vaccine worked. It's ok to be skeptical but it's like they dont even bother to do basic ass research its astonishing. Like yes the government and frankly the CDC do be corrupt but that doesnt mean it doesnt benefit them to create this vaccine and give it their work force so they can continue extracting labor.
Here I am thinking, “gosh I’d never be up for debating someone as experienced at it as Vaush”. Then I listen to this dude and suddenly I feel like an intellectual giant.
Literally just looking for any excuse possible to avoid something that's politicized even though they've already done the thing in another context and they're literally fine.
Correct Question: Why isn't the general public taught how to to under important research and scientific communities rather than: 1. Becoming a scientist in the relevant field. 2. Have faith that institutions are working correctly. 3. Falling into conspiracy theories.
Cell phones make people who at one time would have admitted their ignorance now feel empowered to “do their own research.” Now any person with any opinion will find a way to validate it. Cognitive bias means these people are never wrong and constantly able to “substantiate their opinions”
I knew someone who took some classes about solar energy in college, which was over 30 years ago, and he acted like he knew more than all the scientists who currently study the subject. It was wild.
@@hasbug223 Because some things aren't so simple that you can teach them to people within just a couple of months. Not everyone can be a medical expert, you have no choice but to rely on doctors and institutions to gain certain information.
Myocarditis and adverse effects on menstrual health are noted everywhere lol and they are not uncommon. Funny how the pharma companies aren’t going to have to own up to any of that though
That’s not true listen to Japan’s and South Africa’s fda. Up until omicron you cannot catch Covid again but omicron can bypass your immunity but the symptoms only last a day it is so mild so why mandate a vaccine that was not fda approved for something that can’t block omicron? Tyrannical. Plus the pcr tests is done multiple times give false positives. You’re friend had the regular flu which has not gone away then got Covid.
@@MK-oz2lf So you'd rather let Omicron mutate into something that can cause even more damage? Omicron may not cause as severe cases, but you have no way of knowing whether or not that will hold true; especially if it's allowed to continue to mutate. You also have no way of knowing if their coworker had the flu the first time around as I'm guessing you were not the person who tested their coworker.
@@MK-oz2lf "Up until Omicron you cannot catch covid again" - absolutely wrong, we've got tons of examples of people catching Alpha in 2020, then Delta in 2021...which makes sense, because we can track antibody levels and see a marked decline after around 4 months.
@@khill8645 No omicron can bypass the vaccines and natural immunity but if you already had omicron then you are good against delta etc. But if you only had delta or before you can get omicron but the strain is only as harmful as the common cold and it lasts a day. THAT IS A GOOD THING. other countries say that is a good thing but the forprofit healthcare system of the US and its media tell you it's doomsday of all things. The vaccine drops immunity yes but natural immunity is complete. otherwise explain Japan that relied more on ivermectin as well as Africa and Latin America that were discriminated from access to the patents to produce the vaccine on their own... i thought this was about saving people around the world.... so you think production and peer reviews from brown people are not good enough?.... what's up, Hill.... you'd rather trust in the black orphan experimenting, dog killing crony corporatist that botched the aids epidemic in the 80s in Fauci???... That PoS belongs in prison right now.... Look up Japan's FDA, Dr John Campbell in the UK, Dr Robert Malone who is the inventor of the mRNA technology and other vaccines who can present peer reviewed sources from around the world that are not money driven like the US suits are. NEXT
@@MK-oz2lf My friend Beth in the UK has caught Delta twice. You should also fact check your PCR test knowledge because it sounds very poorly uninformed.
"What's a few million baby deaths?" Clip it and ship it boys, we got him. I can see the headline already. "Beverly Hills Gamer Ian "Vowsh" Koshinsky advocates for infant genocide". I'll take my journalism job now thanks.
I didn't like Vaush's approach here. Was he not basically saying 'If you oppose adults being forced to take the vaccine, you're a hypocrite if you think it's ok to give vaccines to babies'. Struck me as reminiscent of a right wing smooth-brain hypocrisy argument tbh.
@IMelkor42 Not exactly. I think his point was that it's absurd to prioritize only consent without taking into account other factors that could be potentially catastrophic. The argument isn't so much calling him a hypocrite as stating that it could be morally justifiable to force someone to do something they don't consent to in order to protect the people around them
@@Randomusername132 Maybe. Vaush did at one point say the guy might be a hypocrite on this point (somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but still...). I think it's apples and oranges in any case, babies can't consent, adults can. It's an asinine comparison.
This really makes me appreciate shear patience Vaush has. Personally I would be screaming "You total idiot!", and it would come off as me not being willing to be part of argument.
I wouldn't really get too angry for the argument... I'd just get too apathetic to continue it... Like after awhile I think I'd just be sighing and shaking my head too much...
I lost it when the caller said, "no, this isn't a conspiracy!" and then went on to drop the "'deaths from Covid' or 'deaths with Covid'" line like 50 times in a row.
Hey Tempest or Ryan, shouldn't you include something about the topic of this debate in the title or thumbnail? It's gonna be rough trying to find specific debates in a playlist when they're all called 'agony and anger, 2 hours of suffering'
True Vaush fans can find specific debates through the amount of pain it causes Vaush (Jokes aside tho, that would actually be helpful if there was something in the title about it)
That's what I don't understand all these people that are anti vaxx, if you have concerns setup an appointment with your GP and share your concerns with them.
@HoneyJunkie this is true, when I totally went to medschool (totally not lying very real), they gave us instructive classes on betraying the public and forcing people to get the vaccine 😈
@@rainbowkrampus and like this guy, get a number wrong by a multiple of 100, then not react to getting a very important number wrong by a multiple of 100
This is the Brock Lesnar vs John Cena Summerslam 2014 squash match of debates. Dude is just being suplexed to the point that he believes he won the match from the CTE he received
“DON’T watch this debate if you value your brain cells” if only people who didn’t value their brain cells watched this, then your whole audience would be nothing but Conservatives and Tankies
I've heard this guy's argument about infection rates a million times at this point and every time it just gets stupider. The viral load is not the only factor in infection and is honestly probably the least important one seeing as those loads should be caught by masking up and social distancing. Having reduced infectious periods is far more important
That's actually an interesting point about most people with this position. Often they are lacking the math knowledge to interpret data. Then use it to push a government conspiracy agenda because they are all about the "facts".
God i had a debate eerily similar to this with my cousin over Thanksgiving. Glad to see vaush couldn't fare any better against such utter vapid bullshit.
53:43 so my girlfriend is 8 months pregnant. She was vaccinated the month before getting pregnant, and I got my booster back in October. At that time, she asked her OB if she could get the booster, and he said she was the first patient of his to ask (we live in a pretty rural area) and to let him look into it first just to be safe. We found that a relatively reasonable response. You know what he said at her next appointment two weeks later? "Totally safe, I've seen no data to indicate any concerns, I can get a dose up here by the time our appointment is over, just let me know if you have a fever or anything that doesn't go away with tylenol" People like this dude are absolute clowns. You can consult your doctor and "do your research", and you know what's going to happen? Your doctor is going to tell you to get vaccinated.
@@colt9836 "in a small amount of cases, seatbelts trap people in cars or break ribs, therefore seatbelts shouldnt be mandated even though I become a goddamn human missile and a danger to everyone else during the accident without one"
This guy's whole philosophy is he can say whatever he wants as long as he avoids knowing anything and refuses to acknowledge anything he DOES know. His only goal at every point is to get his talking point out and then be so unironically stupid that he just can't follow any of the arguments that prove him wrong.
This guy gives me vibes that he spent all night cramming all of his research the night before this debate and caught like 2 hours of sleep. It’s like he just started studying for an exam and just realized it was tomorrow.
There was never a mandate that made it *entirely* impossible to work. Just very difficult. Work at a small business. Or work somewhere it doesn't apply. There are some options.
At first i was wondering why the vid wasnt titled “vaccine debate” or something but now i understand the current title is the most accurate title possible. This debate DID make me lose all brain function
Because their positions are incoherent. It's the same for the "pro-life" crowd. They will scream "abortion is murder" but if you actually bring up the logical outcome of that idea - i.e. *legally* treating it as murder, 99% of them back off in record speed and are completely inconsistent
How tf do these people have the audacity to come on to a platform of thousands of people and not even do a 5 second check to see if they sound right. I check my audio settings of discord almost every time I hop on to a public VC with only a dozen people in it. Not to mention this guy is a STREAMER, how tf you gonna be streaming and not have a separate mic? He sounds like he's just using his laptop mic. I haven't even gotten to the debate yet and by this alone I'm already annoyed by him.
At least have a mic on a mid tier headset, but it really does seem like he's using the lappy mic or a garbo headset. No damn way I'd stream without proper shit to sound/look good. Just imagine having this little self awareness.
This is a perfect example of what happens when you don’t really care about facts and properly informing yourself, and instead only seek to counter things you don’t like because you want to shut up “others” you don’t like.
I’ll use his language too, “do you people in chat confirm that we used this near two hour long video as white noise while we did our chores or hobbies?”.
@@digitalbear1217 Occasional crashes due to some mods not playing nice with each other, but it's worth it just so that I can keep using Gundams in my fleets. About a third of the map belongs to me now, and I'm about to unlock Titans. Hope you'll have a good time when you jump back in!
“You’re vaccinated, admit it!” “Y-You can’t prove that…just like I can’t prove that you’re a CIA agent…” 😂😂😂 “…m-maybe something will come out in a few years…” LOL! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
"If you care so much about people having the choice to get the covid V's then what about the millions of babies that get V's forced on them at birth? Shouldn't we wait until they turn 18 and let them makes that choice?" That point should be made against all anti V's.
@@paultoc2657 I give you the coat hanger abortion. Do you believe there's utility in allowing women who don't want to be pregnant to be forced to be pregnant regardless of the fact that coat hanger abortions are still done to this day (Mostly in conservative states mind you)? "Choice" has its limitations the same way "Rights" has its limitations. If you actually care about "The safety of people" like me a socialist then you should be supporting institutions that reduces permanent damage or life threatening harm to women (aka abortion clinics).
@@PickleSir Jesus christ....people were that deranged? If I was still in elementary or high-school I don't want to be near another student without their polio vaccine or their mumps vaccine. Conservatives seem more ree'tarded now than in the past.
“Why can’t people do their own research” Because SPECIALIZATION is how the human race has progressed this far. Medicine and science is hard, that’s why conservatives can’t do it easily.
But also, if people actually did their own research correctly, they would come to the same conclusions as the overwhelming majority of the scientific community
I mentioned in the comments on the vod that I was gonna comb through this debate and give timestamps for every falsehood he spews and the correction. I have the day off tomorrow, and I plan to make that my project. I'll edit this comment once I'm finished. Edit: This is taking me longer than I expected, but here's where I'm at with it so far. I'll edit again after I've watched it a few more times. Busier today than I expected to be. 8:01 Starts with suggesting people should be able to opt out of taking the vaccine if they even "think" they might be allergic to something in it. Will go on to chastise Vaush repeatedly throughout the debate for making "I think" remarks, even in cases where he has evidence to support his opinions. 8:08 Even if every claim in the VAERS database were proven to be true, there is still significantly lower risk in getting the vaccine than getting covid-19. As it pertains to myocarditis specifically, most cases clear up within 48 hours and it is still more common in those who get covid-19 than in those who receive the vaccine. 9:41 The word Vaush was looking for was more than likely "incubator." 15:55 He suggests there is insufficient evidence that a vaccinated person is less likely to become infected. Data suggests that after 2 weeks of the 2nd dose of the Moderna vaccine, chances of becoming infected were reduced to 5%, 10% with Pfizer, and 30% with Johnson and Johnson. Recent data suggests that efficacy is even higher after receiving a booster, but all would reduce the peak of the infection, meaning viral load levels would stay higher for longer in an unvaccinated individual. 18:45 He literally tries to have it both ways, lmao 20:02 Literally all data everywhere. The fuck? 24:23 Data from hospitals in the United States put over 90% of those still dying from covid-19 as unvaccinated individuals. He is simultaneously cherry picking and misrepresenting the data here in an attempt to downplay the efficacy of the vaccine, while also trying to downplay the severity of the virus, while also exaggerating the potential negatives of taking the vaccine. 26:50 This is his first attempt to create a distinction without a difference. Covid deaths are deaths that wouldn't have occured in the absence of covid. Complications from covid-19 could mean a heart attack or it could mean drowning in your own fluids, but it's still a death caused by covid. That's what these charts show. It's not literally keeping track of people who got shot in the face and also happened to have covid at the time. 40:11 He literally pulled 170 million out of nowhere, and I can't find where he could have taken Vaush saying that from. 41:17 He demonstrates the inability to calculate percentages. Further, this is all tangential. The actual case mortality rate for covid-19 is about 2%. Putting the excess deaths against the entire United States population is a meaningless stat, especially when the pandemic is still happening and seemingly about to be the worst it's ever been. The spanish flu pandemic also occured over 100 years ago, so given that medical technology has improved significantly since then, it always rubs me the wrong way when people act as if covid-19 is somehow less serious. 43:43 Yes, not being vaccinated is offensive. Stay mad. 44:13 The evidence is the higher case rate per capita in areas with a lower vaccine participation rate which confirmed the already existing data from the vaccine trials. Literally any amount of looking for the answer would reveal this. 45:17 If he is suggesting that asymptomatic spread is not a major factor in transmission, the burden IS on him to make that case. That was determined almost 2 years ago. 49:22 If the government is not forcing you to vaccinate on threat of legal punishment, it's not a mandate. He will never be able to defend this point. 50:02 Vaccine side effects usually reveal themselves within 2 months. Almost 2 years have passed since the first vaccine trials occurred and no data suggests that long term side effects are to be expected. This is just fear mongering. 52:00 He says this is the first time using mRna vaccines. While this is the first time there has been one used by the general public, mRna vaccines have been studied since 2003 and tested in humans for years. Most of the research into mRna vaccines for coronaviruses was already done before covid hit. That's why the vaccines came out so quickly. The idea that it was rushed is an absolute falsehood.
12:33 you are exactly correct. the study was very careful with their wording. they noted "peak" viral loads are very similar. the issue is that peak viral loads dont last as long in vaccinated as long as they do in unvaccinated, also, symptoms are where most spreading happens. in vaccinated individuals, symptoms are strongly reduced. this inlies tje problem with their citation of this source....they didn't read the actual study and the dozens of ones similar to it.
I unironically debated that race mixing isnt bad and the other dude was like "actually there are health problems" like plenty of articles state it's not bad but good even.
The best way to describe this to someone with a negative score on the reading comprehension portion of the SAT: "Let's say you work in construction. It is mandated you wear a hard hat. They don't do this for other jobs, but they do it for yours because you need it. Yes, there are incidents in which the helmet splinters and hurts the person's head, but for the most part, they keep you from getting your skull caved in by a cinderblock and cause your co-workers the emotional trauma of watching you die and/or getting skull fragments and brain matter on them. Do you think that it's fair that if Johnny walks into work and refuses to wear his hardhat his boss can say "Johnny don't be a dumb fuck, wear your helmet" and if he refuses, the boss can tell him "then leave"? Yes, it's Johnny's choice, but the boss needs workers to be fucking safe, he has the right to fire Johnny for not complying with safety regulations, which is what workplace covid mandates are. If you don't take addiquite safety measures according to your workplace, you SHOULD be fired lest you put yourself or anyone else at risk."
And now my impression of the caller: “But you do agree that hard hats aren’t 100% effective at preventing cranial damage by cinder block or steel beam? I have this study that shows that hard hats did not prevent these workers from dying on the job from cranial trauma (never mind the trauma was caused by falling from significant height and it was in 1973). It’s coercion to force all construction workers to wear hard hats. Also, you spelled ‘adequate’ wrong.”
My brain cells need the self esteem boost, letsgooo Edit: 1 hour and 20 minutes in. I have made a mistake. There's no escape. If I hear "that's your assumption, you made that up" one more time I'm going to pull my ears off and eat them.
He's trying to use the studies he doesn't understand to falsify the conclusion of the same studies. As if the scientists just mixed up their numbers. At the same time, he can't calculate a percentage
Support baby tyranny. There needs to be more. I love Vaush walking him into baby vaccines and he tries to pivot when his answer would contract his covid position.
Holy shit this debate is hilarious. From the fact that he didn't know you have to move the decimal places to thinking that imperfect vaccination is when you still get sick. Fantastic
Kind of missing the point of the anti vax and anti mandate people. When you talk to them in private they say “errr, covid only affects fat and old people, I’m not fat or old why should I be inconvenienced”. It’s a compassion issue, not a science one.
There's also rank stupidity. I've continuously heard these quarter-wits scoff at it only have a 1-2% mortality rate. ............. Well WTF else have you ever voluntarily done in you're life that had a 1 in 50 chance of your death? Literal diving from the skies with a big pillowcase strapped to your back has like a what, 1 in a few tens of thousands of a chance to kill you?
Im learning when dealing with right wingers and anti vax when they say "this is a different topic or your changing subject it means "I have no way to refute your argument"
Instead of drinking i listen to Vauwsh explain how to interpret statistical data to conspiracists. It may kill brain cells, and contributes to depression, but its not nearly as rough on the ligaments and cardiovascular system. Also i can do it at work without a drop in productivity.
1. Studies show peak viral loads are similar between vax & unvax but vax have their viral loads drop off much much quicker, meaning they recover much quicker. This leads to a lower transmission. Also, the viral loads include more dead virus for vax individuals, likely due to their increased immune response. since they don’t differentiate, the peaks probably aren’t truly equivalent. 2. Studies also show vax people in households recover quicker and are less likely to get COVID, and unvax people who live in a household with vaccinated individuals are less likely to get the disease
Vaush says he’s probably vaxxed, he replies “you can’t prove it” has major vibes of a 6 year old with a face smeared with chocolate “I didn’t eat the cookies, you can’t prove it”
I need to hear some sanity for the covid argument, I went to a gym where I saw at least 60 people with 1 guy wearing a mask and then go to a taco place where no one is wearing a mask and walk through the door to my parents placeand hear my mom say basically" California and everything is so locked down, people need to get out" like, fuck this covid debate is fucking maddening
@@Delicious_Oreoz that actually has me pretty suspicious of the cdc, so omicron is more infectious but it's not that bad and we don't need 10 day quarantine anymore cause people need to work?
@@faceless_man566 yeah CDC probably getting that bread from Delta Airliner. I heard they asked the CDC to lower the quarantine time cause they needed workers back. I honestly wouldnt be suprised if this surge that's happening gets worse then when covid started especially since it spreads easily.
This dude is your typical nut job. If he can’t set the false premise and false reality that he needs to make his argument, he just spirals into nonsense and really show their crazy
At around 13:16, when the point was made that vaccinated individuals had similar peak viral load to unvaccinated individuals, a secondary point was not addressed: That vaccinated individuals had accelerated viral clearance. This means that, effectively, the duration of time where a vaccinated individual was contagious was that much less than an unvaccinated individual. Less time being contagious means less spread, despite similar levels of peak viral load. This is something anti-vaxxers often overlook because it's a more nuanced point. Ignorance ignores nuance.
![Shader Basics, Blending & Textures • Shaders for Game Devs [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kfM-yu0iQBk/mqdefault.jpg)
This guy is the best evidence yet that people who say "Do your own research" have no fucking idea how to *do research.*
I can't stand that "you said you think this thing, but you have no evidence" but then they just claim something is a fact when it's not supported by any evidence.
It's just that arrogant certainty from a point of ignorance that I can't stand. "You are not asserting that your belief is a fact, therefore it loses to my claim because I say it's a fact."
Yup this is a typical problem. they think they can read in English and they have all the knowledge in the universe. the critical thinking is the key. as well as some analytic skills. btw Vaus lack that skill (the analytics one) as well because analytically u can disprove some of these points easily. for example the execs death I think Vaus thinks that the guy would understand what that mean. but i think to drive the point home he need to show him the numbers and MATH!!
"Do your own research" means "keep looking until you find the same stuff I did and then accept it without question"
@@coaldoubt2879 In my experience, "do your own research" means "I heard this from some random people on the internet or some obscure unreliable source, but I don't want to say that."
@@LegendaryHewy It's just a youtube video that shows you what you want to hear and teaches you to be paranoid.
"What´s a few million baby deaths, where talking about freedom here." is the most american sentence ever spoken.
That would be the most insane right wing pro-abortion argument
Covid that has killed like no children lol
@@skylerasbridge3507 yes but if babies weren’t vaccinated until they were 18 there would be millions
@@skylerasbridge3507 Yeah, the number is low, but you're forgetting losing parents, so it's not like they're not affected negatively by others dying or becoming permanently disabled as a result from an infection.
@@skylerasbridge3507 If there wasn’t mandates on Polio and TB, there’s a good chance none of us would be here…
I'm at the roughly 41 minute mark and this man has managed to, within the span of a few minutes, confuse his own voice for Vaush's (literally saying Vaush said something that he himself said 20 seconds earlier) then just utterly not understand how the elementary school concept of division and percentages works. I had to pause. I couldn't do it. I'm genuinely concerned for this guy, is he okay? Did he sleep at all the night before this? Is he under the influence of something? I haven't commented on a UA-cam video in like 10 fucking years but I just can't do this man.
Tell me about it. Vaush has debated some headcases in the past but this one is easily in the top ten.
when did he confuse his voice with vaush's? I missed it
Oh my god, you haven't. Hahahahah
@@myssangela4872 starting at 39:51 "you just said 170m" Vaush never said 170m
wait thats fucking hilarious lmao i didnt catch that ty
Me - I love OG Vaush debates, I wish he would do more.
Me an hour into the debate - This is awful, people are too stupid for their own good. I'm never watching one of these again.
-- Rinse and repeat on a monthly cycle.
@@rainbowkrampus He thinks his farts don't stink because he has covid and can't smell them. :)
@@rainbowkrampus True. Waiting on the JQ shoe to drop, or even the race realism shoe, really kept it fresh. This is more of a “banality of evil” sort of vibe.
@@heavysystemsinc. what do you mean? He's clearly vaccinated. His refusal to say that he was is proof enough.
@@nofasciesallowed6213 Being vaccinated doesn't matter if your point is telling other to not get it. That's still a net harm imo, especially with this dude's insistence on making the absolute dumbest arguments. This dude was the kind of dipshit in highschool that thought he could do a book report on a videogame magazine.
@@rainbowkrampus I was told that was a racist for mentioning that most governments in the world are not democratically elected. And because I didn’t know what YT is (still don’t) I’m not “one of them”. She said “you’re half Dominican and you don’t know what YT is? You aren’t one of us”
Outing idiot bigotry one day at a time.
The .002 vs. .2% thing had me dying. That needs to be a bigger meme that was so funny.
That was the real math death event
Show me an article and study that proves 0.002 is the same as 0.2% lol
.2% of my brain cells survived this debate
I think we found auldens number
i got all d's in high school math and even I know to move the decimal two to the right jesus
Luckily I have no brain cells to lose. Perfect vid for me!
That tends to happen watching Vowshe
we can split my braincell. happy new year comrade
Shouldn’t you be in the ground then?
@@basedmuscleman6539 two brain cells between two commies... that sounds about right
Amen
The best debates are the ones so circular that Vaush goes from frustrated, to laughing, to so depressed he doesn’t even want to continue the debate, even though he’s winning
Lmao great description
Winning an argument with someone this one dimensional feels about as pyrrhic as it gets, by way of lost brain cells (as the title mentions) and general existential angst.
Suffering from success
We'll win so much you'll get tired of winning.
You realize that it’s only the western countries trying to ram mandates down everyone’s throats right? There’s are the same people that continue gutting hospital infrastructure and will never let m4a through. Y’all are picking a side big time with the most corrupt elements of the establishment
That was rough.
When people say "People should have the right to chose." they just mean "should have the right to not experience consequences" Then say "Businesses shouldn't have the right to run their business the way they want despite consequences"
It's frustrating having to explain or listen to someone explain that's not how the world works. Especially to adults.
You have the patience of a saint.
@@kg356 That's how a lot of things work under capitalism. Vaush even gave a great example with vaccines and babies.
That's how it works with offensive language and clothes and when someone says "I should have the choice to go to work naked. Ok, you DO have a choice but you'll probably be shamed, fired and arrested. Or as Vaush said, you DO have the choice to say the n word to your boss, but don't belly ache when you get fired.
All of capitalism is coercive, but these ppl wanna pick and choose what gives consequences.
If someone stole good to survive and the consequences was getting beat by police and arrested, these same ppl would say "That's what he gets."
I have my own issues with the mandates, but signaling it like its the government forcing their hand with no free will is simply not true.
@@kg356 although its important to look at why a job requires vaccination. Its essentially due to the fact that you will be in a workspace with either colleagues or customers both of which the company doesn’t want to put in any unnessecary risk so you can choose to follow the company’s requirements (which are in the interest of the wellbeing of the majority of the people at your workplace rather than your own individual choice to not receive a vaccine) or you can fail to meet the company’s requirements and be fired.
@@kg356 It is coercive, but also other people have a right to not get sick and die. If you were coming to work with a contageous disease and you were just throwing up in the hallway and refused to leave then other people would absolutely have a right to protect their health by forcing you off the company property and maybe even firing you if there's a threat you might do that again. You don't get to just cry 'my freedom' and then put other people in danger if you want to live in a society.
If you really want to go unvaccinated so badly then you're free to leech off of someone who might take you or you're free to live in the woods and fish for your own food or whatever, but the second you bring that threat to other people who aren't complicit in this then you're directly infringing on their rights and you will be punished for it.
It's the same as if you just started drunkenly waving a pistol around and playing Russian roulette with your coworkers. Sure, they MIGHT not be hurt, and you have a right to bear arms. But you don't have a right to endanger other people on a whim because you feel like your freedom of choice is more important than other people's freedom to feel safe in their workplace.
Funny how none of them had an issue with at-will-employment until it started affecting their ability to work.
@@DavidWilliams-by2ne its not about justification though. The whole point is that its not an infringement on a person’s ability to choose to not get vaccinated. You have the freedom to choose to assault someone but doing so has serious consequences.
It blows my mind how someone can have an encyclopedic knowledge of something but all their data is bad. This dude probably puts in 40 hours a week collecting bad data. He had an answer for every question, and all his answers were wrong.
Sounds like an apologist.
@@BornOnThursday Really. It reminds me of people whose dayjob is interpreting scripture.
I know what this guy does. He is looking for sources to back up with beliefs so anything that slightly backs up what he thinks is all he is searching for. He is not taking the extra steps to actually figure out the full picture.
@@user-hh3ee9ws3i that’s the difference between being trained to understand scientific literature and “dO yOuR oWn ReAsEaRcH”
the fact he didnt get that "per 100k" means "per 100k" and not something entirely different is quite amazing
This man reset his talking points like an NPC you pressed A on one too many times
Underrated comment.
The classic comment was "mashing A when you're talking to Nurse Joy"
@@LimeyLassen owl from Zelda Ocarina of Time
This debate is an infohazard. Fucking MK-Class scenario on my brain cells.
This debate has me trekking cross-country to Yellowstone so I can do the big reset. Oh, god. This has happened before, hasn’t it? We’re in a causal loop. We’re gonna be stuck trying to undo this cancerous-ass debate for eternity.
@Dark Skon Is this you in the debate lol
@Dark Skon lol we found the ghost account..
@Dark Skon Did you ever figure out why Vaush kept asking you about other vaccines and what would be necessary to allow people to make those decisions for themselves
Ah! SCP reference! Another person of culture 🥂
“Natural immunity” or as the real scientists call it “post-infection survivor immunity” isn’t as consistent person to person as a vaccine, because each infection is different
Yep and variants tend to beat that "immunity" also 1 in 4 infected getting long haulers they didn't get well to be immune. So the idea of "natural immunity" be superior is literally insane.
@David Let me ask you a question, what is the point in having natural immunity? Why do you want it?
To not get infected. Right? So you get infected... in order to not get infected. Can you really not see how fuking studpid that is? It's like quitting your job in order to not get fired, it makes no sense. Also, then you have to deal with all the possible long term consequences of getting covid like possible lung damage, brain inflammation, death etc. Personally my throat hurt for 6 months after I tested negative, and I have family member who never got back to full health even 1 and a half year later. Why would you want that? Why would not just get the vaccine instead?
@David how much potential profit is there in developing a cure for your brain rot?
@@LizStaples how can you people be so scientifically illiterate.. your repeating nonsense hypothesis never confirmed by a urging just repeated. the attempt to dismiss natural immunity is one of the most disgraceful anti science nonsense Ive whitnessed. it's all based on a braindead idea that pushing any alternative will dissuade vaccine update. it's actually sickening
so in isreal they said natural immunity is over 10x better than the vax. you do realise the vax produces different anti bodies response too. some people get high anti bodies some low. this is really poor understanding of science
Best part of this debate was Vaush not realizing this guy intuitively believes children are property.
I was thinking that the whole time
Anyone who comes in puffing their chest about data over outlier studies while requesting evidence of other studies that prove already settled science are honestly arguing more in bad faith than those that say ‘do your own research’ or some shit like that.
He also said people should do their own research at some point too lmao
I remember someone in 2020 citing a paper from the 1980s related to a lack of wound infections in one surgery after masks were no longer used. The study sample size was small and based in a sterile surgery. Moreover, it was about wound infection NOT virus transmissions.
This one doctor said this one thing once and I believe them because they're a doctor. "What about every other doctor?" No I don't believe every other doctor because they're doctors.
Every time Vaush made a good assertion backed up by solid data, it's dismissed because he can't prove it to an absolute certainty. And every time this kid makes a wildly inaccurate assertion with little if any proof, Vaush's counterargument is dismissed because he can't DISPROVE it to an absolute certainty. He's giving Vaush an impossible bar to clear, and giving himself a very low bar to clear. The epitome of bad faith argument.
@@verdigo1 exactly, it's because in their heads conservatism, partisanship, prejudice, and the status quo are the default options.
I'm convinced this person isn't literate. Their published sources go against their own positions. edit: used wrong their
It's because people forget that scientists/researchers use words differently than laypeople.
I did sociological research for 3 years and used common words differently all time and had to define it using research within my write up.
@@jwomackandcheese73 "Theory" is the most abused one. When a layperson says "theory" what they actually mean is a "hypothesis"
@@jwomackandcheese73 I'd say this is a factor in research->reporting/general population understanding. However, here I'd say it's closer to someone reading a headline and using an articles as sources without reading the article.
As frequently demonstrated with people with shit views on things, they'll often pull out sources that say the opposite of the thing they claim it does.
I loved it when he went "Oh, uh, you're cherry picking information as well" the most half-hearted "no u" moment I've ever seen
If that guy didn’t even know the basic way to turn a number into a percentage (41:20) I def don’t trust him to interpret complex covid data accurately and in good faith
You just divide by 100! It’s not that hard! Percentages are basically “x number out of 100”! How do you fuck that up?!
Thats the best way to discredit an argument you dont like. Highlight a mistake they made in their hour long argument, take that mistake (or several in this guys case) and use that to discredit the entire argument. It's easy, and that way you dont ever have to challenge your own opinions and world views.
@@dantheman4838 Would you trust a helicopter pilot who never set foot in flight school and had to be corrected on the amount of rotor blades on the helicopter he was showing you? Or would you maybe write him off and find someone else to fly you around?
@@ShazyShaze Are you saying we shouldn't trust Vaush's opinions on medical matters (and all other issues he's not directly educated in), because the last time I checked Vaush is no medical expert either, nor are most of the politicians, media editors and pro vaxxers who are currently advocating for vaccine mandates. What you said is true but it can be said for the majority of people on both sides of this debate.
@@dantheman4838 if the Crux of your argument relies on mathematics, and you screw up the only math you present, it’s a valid critique.
No I think he genuinely didn't understand the ultimate conclusion of his argument with the baby thing. He kept getting fixated on the fact that the babies couldn't make the choice. Even after Vaush 20 times repeated "then they'd choose as adults just as we are doing with covid" he was way to stuck on the baby part. I don't think his brain cells could circulate that much information.
“But what if this happens? I also have no data that implies it does.”
“But what if it doesn’t?”
“But that’s just a hypothetical, you have to provide data!”
Antivaxxers twist themselves in knots to confirm their bias. This dude is a case study in bias confirmation. He has know interest in the truth.
This guy was wild. He truly believes that in order to prove something happened, you just have to prove that it's POSSIBLE for that thing to happen. He genuinely doesn't understand that you need to prove that the thing DID happen, in order to have proved that the thing did happen. He's like a mathematician who doesn't understand that x=x, regardless of what x is.
but if x=1 but you don't know that, how can you say x=x? that would be saying x=1, but you don't know that, so how can you make that claim? how did you reach the conclusion that x=1?
sorry about that
He seems to want logical/mathematical proofs, but they don't exist in the real world
@PolySaken ...I was being facetious. I thought the "sorry about that" was enough of a marker for sarcasm, but I guess not. I apologize for making you waste your time with that explanation.
@@henriquepacheco7473 if x^2 - x = 0,
Then x = 1, or x = 0
No, he believes that in order to prove something happened, HE just needs to prove it's possible for that thing to happen. He has no standard of proof for others because he only believes what he wants to.
18:55
"If it's per capita that's something I gotta look in" he says while looking at a chart that says "per 100,000"
Honestly, I think leftists could convert more people just by providing science and media literacy lessens to the public.
Vaush you gotta do a reading 101 video for the right wingers since you gave us leftists the rhetoric 101 video.
@@lallig8860 when did that happen? I'm sorry, I don't follow all of Vaush' lives
@@lallig8860 I was just live commenting, it's not my takeaway from the whole video, just a funny line that exemplified how stupid the guest was.
Edit: and I do stand by the point that rightwingers tend to not know how to read and digest information correctly. If more people were informed and literate more people would agree with leftists. I think that's fairly evident from the fact that academics tend to be more left leaning.
@@andrewlipnick8131 oop i definitely misread this somehow i totally agree with you i thought you were some hog bashing Vaush over bs
@@andrewlipnick8131 your comment is why by academic studies people on the left tend to be more informed
@@Yashiro-nene_dies Not to mention that this is the standard AGE he's looking at per hospitalised, not the percentage of hospitalised people compare to non-hospitalised. Ohh, this guy is nuts lol
"Idk if your obvious joke was a joke." And that there is a wonderful indicator of how this will go.
immediately came in and acted like a weasel lmao
I definitely sat my baby down and had a serious talk on if they wanted to get vaccinated before I gave them their shots.
"Goo ga goo"
"But Timmy, what if you become a magnet?"
Like I could understand their position if we didnt know the vaccine worked. It's ok to be skeptical but it's like they dont even bother to do basic ass research its astonishing. Like yes the government and frankly the CDC do be corrupt but that doesnt mean it doesnt benefit them to create this vaccine and give it their work force so they can continue extracting labor.
Here I am thinking, “gosh I’d never be up for debating someone as experienced at it as Vaush”. Then I listen to this dude and suddenly I feel like an intellectual giant.
I mean, 10 minutes in and he's already admitting to willingly ignore reality to maintain a narrative.
This was like pulling teeth.
Healthy teeth, without sedatives. Holy hell
We had to remove our wisdom teeth for this one, and the doctor forgot to suture the wound up
Imagine having all of your beliefs based on grasping at straws. The more you debate these people the more you realize that it’s all they have.
And they ain’t even fancy ass crazy straws, they grasping for that plain-ass-choke-out-a-sea-turtle-Mac Donald’s-ass-shit.
Literally just looking for any excuse possible to avoid something that's politicized even though they've already done the thing in another context and they're literally fine.
@@whitestnativeamerican6184 Whoa! Hahaha… You are clearly a person of great taste in straws!
@@whitestnativeamerican6184 not even swirly straws or anything, just disposable ones
Why do these people feel they are more capable than the doctors and scientists that spend their lives studying this topic?
Dunning-Kruger effect
Arrogance
Narcissism
Malice
Correct Question: Why isn't the general public taught how to to under important research and scientific communities rather than:
1. Becoming a scientist in the relevant field.
2. Have faith that institutions are working correctly.
3. Falling into conspiracy theories.
Cell phones make people who at one time would have admitted their ignorance now feel empowered to “do their own research.” Now any person with any opinion will find a way to validate it. Cognitive bias means these people are never wrong and constantly able to “substantiate their opinions”
I knew someone who took some classes about solar energy in college, which was over 30 years ago, and he acted like he knew more than all the scientists who currently study the subject. It was wild.
@@hasbug223 Because some things aren't so simple that you can teach them to people within just a couple of months. Not everyone can be a medical expert, you have no choice but to rely on doctors and institutions to gain certain information.
Has anyone notified this guy that there's a potential for adverse effects from peanut butter? Somehow I doubt he'd care as much.
STOP PEANUT BUTTER MANDATES! STOP INDOCTRINATING MY CHILDREN INTO FAUCI'S PRO-PB&J AGENDA!
While we are at it ban dihydrogen monoxide for its corrosive and aging effects
@@unchainedmel1475 and suffocating effects! Lmao
Myocarditis and adverse effects on menstrual health are noted everywhere lol and they are not uncommon. Funny how the pharma companies aren’t going to have to own up to any of that though
I'm paid plant for big nut
I was pleasantly surprised that he just told you his pronouns without having a tantrum.
peer pressure is a mighty thing
I love that vaush does that honestly. It's a great way to help normalize the practice and a more respectful world
I've noticed that it's even becoming common practice in some conservative spaces.
@@imlaughing2death they can’t keep fighting it haha. It’s already commonplace
@@imlaughing2death I don't believe it. Really?
"Natural immunity can last a lifetime."
*My coworker who just got COVID for the second time determined that was a lie.*
That’s not true listen to Japan’s and South Africa’s fda. Up until omicron you cannot catch Covid again but omicron can bypass your immunity but the symptoms only last a day it is so mild so why mandate a vaccine that was not fda approved for something that can’t block omicron? Tyrannical. Plus the pcr tests is done multiple times give false positives. You’re friend had the regular flu which has not gone away then got Covid.
@@MK-oz2lf So you'd rather let Omicron mutate into something that can cause even more damage? Omicron may not cause as severe cases, but you have no way of knowing whether or not that will hold true; especially if it's allowed to continue to mutate. You also have no way of knowing if their coworker had the flu the first time around as I'm guessing you were not the person who tested their coworker.
@@MK-oz2lf "Up until Omicron you cannot catch covid again" - absolutely wrong, we've got tons of examples of people catching Alpha in 2020, then Delta in 2021...which makes sense, because we can track antibody levels and see a marked decline after around 4 months.
@@khill8645 No omicron can bypass the vaccines and natural immunity but if you already had omicron then you are good against delta etc. But if you only had delta or before you can get omicron but the strain is only as harmful as the common cold and it lasts a day. THAT IS A GOOD THING. other countries say that is a good thing but the forprofit healthcare system of the US and its media tell you it's doomsday of all things. The vaccine drops immunity yes but natural immunity is complete. otherwise explain Japan that relied more on ivermectin as well as Africa and Latin America that were discriminated from access to the patents to produce the vaccine on their own... i thought this was about saving people around the world.... so you think production and peer reviews from brown people are not good enough?.... what's up, Hill.... you'd rather trust in the black orphan experimenting, dog killing crony corporatist that botched the aids epidemic in the 80s in Fauci???... That PoS belongs in prison right now.... Look up Japan's FDA, Dr John Campbell in the UK, Dr Robert Malone who is the inventor of the mRNA technology and other vaccines who can present peer reviewed sources from around the world that are not money driven like the US suits are. NEXT
@@MK-oz2lf My friend Beth in the UK has caught Delta twice. You should also fact check your PCR test knowledge because it sounds very poorly uninformed.
"What's a few million baby deaths?"
Clip it and ship it boys, we got him. I can see the headline already. "Beverly Hills Gamer Ian "Vowsh" Koshinsky advocates for infant genocide". I'll take my journalism job now thanks.
I can't believe the CIA would fund breadtube in order to set up the groundwork for baby genocide. Something something Syria something Russia.
The New York Times will be in contact.
I didn't like Vaush's approach here.
Was he not basically saying 'If you oppose adults being forced to take the vaccine, you're a hypocrite if you think it's ok to give vaccines to babies'.
Struck me as reminiscent of a right wing smooth-brain hypocrisy argument tbh.
@IMelkor42 Not exactly. I think his point was that it's absurd to prioritize only consent without taking into account other factors that could be potentially catastrophic. The argument isn't so much calling him a hypocrite as stating that it could be morally justifiable to force someone to do something they don't consent to in order to protect the people around them
@@Randomusername132 Maybe. Vaush did at one point say the guy might be a hypocrite on this point (somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but still...). I think it's apples and oranges in any case, babies can't consent, adults can. It's an asinine comparison.
This really makes me appreciate shear patience Vaush has. Personally I would be screaming "You total idiot!", and it would come off as me not being willing to be part of argument.
I really wanna pick his brain and ask him for debate advice. He’s so calm.
@@rulerovall1219 He's done a video on this in the past.
I wouldn't really get too angry for the argument... I'd just get too apathetic to continue it... Like after awhile I think I'd just be sighing and shaking my head too much...
Yeah, I literally started laughing at the kid in sheer frustration. Vaush is a very patient man
god your message gave me anxiety because i no longer know how "shear" is spelt in this context
I lost it when the caller said, "no, this isn't a conspiracy!" and then went on to drop the "'deaths from Covid' or 'deaths with Covid'" line like 50 times in a row.
Hey Tempest or Ryan, shouldn't you include something about the topic of this debate in the title or thumbnail? It's gonna be rough trying to find specific debates in a playlist when they're all called 'agony and anger, 2 hours of suffering'
Can you search videos through hashtags?
@@Kevo6492 the only tags are vaush and vaushdebate lol
@@lmcdms Ah lol.
True Vaush fans can find specific debates through the amount of pain it causes Vaush
(Jokes aside tho, that would actually be helpful if there was something in the title about it)
"You should be able to decide with your doctor" Good news: you can! And I'll give you one guess what your doctor will tell you!
That's what I don't understand all these people that are anti vaxx, if you have concerns setup an appointment with your GP and share your concerns with them.
@HoneyJunkie this is true, when I totally went to medschool (totally not lying very real), they gave us instructive classes on betraying the public and forcing people to get the vaccine 😈
@@brick3776 I recall when they told me cancer wasn't real. Mind-blowing.
@@rainbowkrampus and like this guy, get a number wrong by a multiple of 100, then not react to getting a very important number wrong by a multiple of 100
This is the Brock Lesnar vs John Cena Summerslam 2014 squash match of debates. Dude is just being suplexed to the point that he believes he won the match from the CTE he received
Love this reference💯
Also, that match was really an Assbeating😬😂
Love this reference
I didn’t think I’d be finding a wrestling reference in here lol
New debate tactic unlock. Ask your opponent to make a on the spot generalization then call them out for generalizing off the top of their head.
“DON’T watch this debate if you value your brain cells”
if only people who didn’t value their brain cells watched this, then your whole audience would be nothing but Conservatives and Tankies
Tankies are just conservatives with red aesthetics anyways
@@erisdarko4184 Red fash.
You could throw Nazbols in there as well.
@@corntastrophy The difference between tankies and nazbols is mostly incidental as it is.
Jokes on you, I watched this debate and now I have no brain cells and identify as a conservative tankie.
“Okay so we have to keep boosting each other? all the time?”
“is that an euphemism? are you coming onto me?”
What an absolute king
People that would have been a doctor if they wanted to but, were to busy being temporarily embarrassed millionaires
I'm Ted Cruz and I think the Bloodborne streamer known as Vowsh won this debate!
Vowsh was the first person ever to beat the game Bloodborne.
Agreed
I've heard this guy's argument about infection rates a million times at this point and every time it just gets stupider. The viral load is not the only factor in infection and is honestly probably the least important one seeing as those loads should be caught by masking up and social distancing. Having reduced infectious periods is far more important
I went crazy when I realized this guy didn't realize how percentages work
That's actually an interesting point about most people with this position.
Often they are lacking the math knowledge to interpret data. Then use it to push a government conspiracy agenda because they are all about the "facts".
Dude got a number wrong by a factor of literally 100 and it just bounced off his perfectly inert marble of a brain.
God i had a debate eerily similar to this with my cousin over Thanksgiving. Glad to see vaush couldn't fare any better against such utter vapid bullshit.
53:43 so my girlfriend is 8 months pregnant. She was vaccinated the month before getting pregnant, and I got my booster back in October. At that time, she asked her OB if she could get the booster, and he said she was the first patient of his to ask (we live in a pretty rural area) and to let him look into it first just to be safe. We found that a relatively reasonable response.
You know what he said at her next appointment two weeks later? "Totally safe, I've seen no data to indicate any concerns, I can get a dose up here by the time our appointment is over, just let me know if you have a fever or anything that doesn't go away with tylenol"
People like this dude are absolute clowns. You can consult your doctor and "do your research", and you know what's going to happen? Your doctor is going to tell you to get vaccinated.
Listening to this guy debate Vasuh, no joke convinced me to go get a third shot.
I took a shot every time he changed the subject just to loop back to the exact same debunked talking points
This dude wants to argue data but can’t even handle multiplying by 100 to make a percentage
Is this the guy wouldn't say if he was vaccinated or not?
@@colt9836 the guy who definitely was? Yeah that’s him
@@beowyfe "Ummmmm, excuse me, but this bridge doesn't have 100% safety rate, so I'll just swim across. Thank you."
@@colt9836 "in a small amount of cases, seatbelts trap people in cars or break ribs, therefore seatbelts shouldnt be mandated even though I become a goddamn human missile and a danger to everyone else during the accident without one"
@@colt9836 “only over 99% of plane journeys land safely? I think I’ll take my chances *walking* across the Atlantic thank you very much”
I’ve been debating people about why vaccine mandates and Nazism aren’t the same thing all day. I don’t have any brain cells left.
Why?
Why would you do that to yourself?
@@nahuelkid I’m still following Tim Pool (mostly ironically at this point).
Honestly, you’re doing the good fight. Even if you might not convince them, people see the comments, so you don’t know who you’ll impact.
Take a break, go for a walk, hydrate, eat some food. You’ve fought well, friend. T
@@rulerovall1219 thanks. Will do
This guy's whole philosophy is he can say whatever he wants as long as he avoids knowing anything and refuses to acknowledge anything he DOES know. His only goal at every point is to get his talking point out and then be so unironically stupid that he just can't follow any of the arguments that prove him wrong.
This guy gives me vibes that he spent all night cramming all of his research the night before this debate and caught like 2 hours of sleep. It’s like he just started studying for an exam and just realized it was tomorrow.
Goddammit! CHOICES HAVE CONSEQUENCES. IT’S SO FUCKING SIMPLE!
There was never a mandate that made it *entirely* impossible to work. Just very difficult. Work at a small business. Or work somewhere it doesn't apply. There are some options.
@@kg356 You don't get to choose for other people to die so you can lazily complain about getting a shot, that's not how anything works.
@@kg356 what's "this"?
Covid? Because yeah I haven't seen one person claiming covid won't exist even if everyone gets vaccinated.
At first i was wondering why the vid wasnt titled “vaccine debate” or something but now i understand the current title is the most accurate title possible. This debate DID make me lose all brain function
Why is it so hard for these people to own their actual positions?
Because then they would have to admit to themselves that what they want gets people killed/permanently crippled.
Because their positions are incoherent. It's the same for the "pro-life" crowd. They will scream "abortion is murder" but if you actually bring up the logical outcome of that idea - i.e. *legally* treating it as murder, 99% of them back off in record speed and are completely inconsistent
@@anmolt3840051 Tbh the 1% who would genuinely stick to it and treat it legally as murder terrify me
@@lrose5522 Then you go into the idea of all the pregnancies that don't lead to a birth without abortion involved would essentially be manslaughter...
@Kevin Smith why haven't you
How tf do these people have the audacity to come on to a platform of thousands of people and not even do a 5 second check to see if they sound right. I check my audio settings of discord almost every time I hop on to a public VC with only a dozen people in it.
Not to mention this guy is a STREAMER, how tf you gonna be streaming and not have a separate mic? He sounds like he's just using his laptop mic. I haven't even gotten to the debate yet and by this alone I'm already annoyed by him.
He's actually using his phone, he even says so, bruh ehat kinda "streamer" is this 😂
At least have a mic on a mid tier headset, but it really does seem like he's using the lappy mic or a garbo headset. No damn way I'd stream without proper shit to sound/look good. Just imagine having this little self awareness.
This is such a great deconstruction of his arguments, he just changes the subject whenever he can't answer
Did this person just intentionally decided not to think? Why use brain when one can just say the dumbest bullshit?
This is a perfect example of what happens when you don’t really care about facts and properly informing yourself, and instead only seek to counter things you don’t like because you want to shut up “others” you don’t like.
This exactly
I’ll use his language too, “do you people in chat confirm that we used this near two hour long video as white noise while we did our chores or hobbies?”.
I'm fishing in Nier Automata while I listen
Good to listen to while painting miniatures 👍
I was listening while playing Stellaris
@@SatoKure oooh how's your game going? I get back into Stellaris every winter time, so I'm overdue
@@digitalbear1217 Occasional crashes due to some mods not playing nice with each other, but it's worth it just so that I can keep using Gundams in my fleets. About a third of the map belongs to me now, and I'm about to unlock Titans.
Hope you'll have a good time when you jump back in!
“You’re vaccinated, admit it!”
“Y-You can’t prove that…just like I can’t prove that you’re a CIA agent…”
😂😂😂
“…m-maybe something will come out in a few years…”
LOL! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I watched the Debate with the Truck Boomer and Canadian Nazi. I got no cells left.
Canadian nazi debate altered my brain chemistry. In a bad way
The truck boomer was especially bad.
Which Canadian Nazi? The fact that I even have to ask tht question just speaks volumes.
@@chelsgo8675 the two parter, the one who said cliques like goth and Jocks in school exist because people aren’t allowed to be racist anymore
@@DIRTYD33DSDON3DIRTCHEAP gotcha. Gotta be specific with those Canadian Nazis lol
FINALLY, I have been seeing VDSers talking about "VaUSh WaS dEstROyeD" in this debate.
wow... vaush out here helping freshmen do their homework on stream? what a freaking champ.
this was painful af. omg. take care of yourselves everyone.
THIS GUY'S BRAIN IS SO SMOOTH IT'S UNBElIVABLE
The frictionless sphere was never theoretical, it was this guy's brain
Funny how whenever Vaush brings up a study this dude has questions he never asked or brought up for his own studies.
When people say "Do your own research" they always sound like this guy.
One I actually caught live! My god the patience vaush has to not just scream at people like this.
"If you care so much about people having the choice to get the covid V's then what about the millions of babies that get V's forced on them at birth? Shouldn't we wait until they turn 18 and let them makes that choice?"
That point should be made against all anti V's.
What about the millions of babies that don’t have a choice as to whether or not they are brought in to this world?
@@paultoc2657 I give you the coat hanger abortion.
Do you believe there's utility in allowing women who don't want to be pregnant to be forced to be pregnant regardless of the fact that coat hanger abortions are still done to this day (Mostly in conservative states mind you)?
"Choice" has its limitations the same way "Rights" has its limitations. If you actually care about "The safety of people" like me a socialist then you should be supporting institutions that reduces permanent damage or life threatening harm to women (aka abortion clinics).
@@paultoc2657 youre right
from now on,
mandatory abortions
The standard anti vax position before covid times was that children shouldn't be vaccinated whatsoever, so...
@@PickleSir Jesus christ....people were that deranged?
If I was still in elementary or high-school I don't want to be near another student without their polio vaccine or their mumps vaccine.
Conservatives seem more ree'tarded now than in the past.
“Why can’t people do their own research”
Because SPECIALIZATION is how the human race has progressed this far. Medicine and science is hard, that’s why conservatives can’t do it easily.
But also, if people actually did their own research correctly, they would come to the same conclusions as the overwhelming majority of the scientific community
The same guy pretending to do his own research and pretending to understand complicated medical studies doesn’t know how simple percentages work….
“That’s not a choice, that’s coercion” bruh, CAPITALISM IS COERCION
Love how the evidence the "guest" provided disproved their own point
I mentioned in the comments on the vod that I was gonna comb through this debate and give timestamps for every falsehood he spews and the correction. I have the day off tomorrow, and I plan to make that my project. I'll edit this comment once I'm finished.
Edit: This is taking me longer than I expected, but here's where I'm at with it so far. I'll edit again after I've watched it a few more times. Busier today than I expected to be.
8:01 Starts with suggesting people should be able to opt out of taking the vaccine if they even "think" they might be allergic to something in it. Will go on to chastise Vaush repeatedly throughout the debate for making "I think" remarks, even in cases where he has evidence to support his opinions.
8:08 Even if every claim in the VAERS database were proven to be true, there is still significantly lower risk in getting the vaccine than getting covid-19. As it pertains to myocarditis specifically, most cases clear up within 48 hours and it is still more common in those who get covid-19 than in those who receive the vaccine.
9:41 The word Vaush was looking for was more than likely "incubator."
15:55 He suggests there is insufficient evidence that a vaccinated person is less likely to become infected. Data suggests that after 2 weeks of the 2nd dose of the Moderna vaccine, chances of becoming infected were reduced to 5%, 10% with Pfizer, and 30% with Johnson and Johnson. Recent data suggests that efficacy is even higher after receiving a booster, but all would reduce the peak of the infection, meaning viral load levels would stay higher for longer in an unvaccinated individual.
18:45 He literally tries to have it both ways, lmao
20:02 Literally all data everywhere. The fuck?
24:23 Data from hospitals in the United States put over 90% of those still dying from covid-19 as unvaccinated individuals. He is simultaneously cherry picking and misrepresenting the data here in an attempt to downplay the efficacy of the vaccine, while also trying to downplay the severity of the virus, while also exaggerating the potential negatives of taking the vaccine.
26:50 This is his first attempt to create a distinction without a difference. Covid deaths are deaths that wouldn't have occured in the absence of covid. Complications from covid-19 could mean a heart attack or it could mean drowning in your own fluids, but it's still a death caused by covid. That's what these charts show. It's not literally keeping track of people who got shot in the face and also happened to have covid at the time.
40:11 He literally pulled 170 million out of nowhere, and I can't find where he could have taken Vaush saying that from.
41:17 He demonstrates the inability to calculate percentages. Further, this is all tangential. The actual case mortality rate for covid-19 is about 2%. Putting the excess deaths against the entire United States population is a meaningless stat, especially when the pandemic is still happening and seemingly about to be the worst it's ever been. The spanish flu pandemic also occured over 100 years ago, so given that medical technology has improved significantly since then, it always rubs me the wrong way when people act as if covid-19 is somehow less serious.
43:43 Yes, not being vaccinated is offensive. Stay mad.
44:13 The evidence is the higher case rate per capita in areas with a lower vaccine participation rate which confirmed the already existing data from the vaccine trials. Literally any amount of looking for the answer would reveal this.
45:17 If he is suggesting that asymptomatic spread is not a major factor in transmission, the burden IS on him to make that case. That was determined almost 2 years ago.
49:22 If the government is not forcing you to vaccinate on threat of legal punishment, it's not a mandate. He will never be able to defend this point.
50:02 Vaccine side effects usually reveal themselves within 2 months. Almost 2 years have passed since the first vaccine trials occurred and no data suggests that long term side effects are to be expected. This is just fear mongering.
52:00 He says this is the first time using mRna vaccines. While this is the first time there has been one used by the general public, mRna vaccines have been studied since 2003 and tested in humans for years. Most of the research into mRna vaccines for coronaviruses was already done before covid hit. That's why the vaccines came out so quickly. The idea that it was rushed is an absolute falsehood.
I’m here for this. You should know people appreciate you.
I finished it... I think I'm finally ready for the Star Wars Christmas Special
As someone who has seen both, the Christmas Special might be more tolerable
12:33 you are exactly correct. the study was very careful with their wording. they noted "peak" viral loads are very similar. the issue is that peak viral loads dont last as long in vaccinated as long as they do in unvaccinated, also, symptoms are where most spreading happens. in vaccinated individuals, symptoms are strongly reduced. this inlies tje problem with their citation of this source....they didn't read the actual study and the dozens of ones similar to it.
I unironically debated that race mixing isnt bad and the other dude was like "actually there are health problems" like plenty of articles state it's not bad but good even.
Lol imagine having a debate on race mixing hahaha wtf
@@illsaveus its was in the comment section of a video that had "nick fuentes" on it so it wasnt suprising edgy trolls mostly.
Wouldn't it actually be really good in the long term? Increasing genetic diversity is generally a good thing
@@anmolt3840051 yeah it would ontop of the fact that everybody is mixed to some extent even if it is only 10% not everyone is "pure" or whatever.
The person you debated must want to “keep it in the family”
This is what i expect from vaush. Everyone else is uploading their end of the year/ new year video, and vaush uploads a debate
He literally uploaded debate highlights
I'm a Vaushite, I have no brain cells to lose
We’re two years into a pandemic and people still don’t understand how to covert a decimal into a percentage. Does America even teach math anymore?
The best way to describe this to someone with a negative score on the reading comprehension portion of the SAT:
"Let's say you work in construction. It is mandated you wear a hard hat. They don't do this for other jobs, but they do it for yours because you need it. Yes, there are incidents in which the helmet splinters and hurts the person's head, but for the most part, they keep you from getting your skull caved in by a cinderblock and cause your co-workers the emotional trauma of watching you die and/or getting skull fragments and brain matter on them. Do you think that it's fair that if Johnny walks into work and refuses to wear his hardhat his boss can say "Johnny don't be a dumb fuck, wear your helmet" and if he refuses, the boss can tell him "then leave"? Yes, it's Johnny's choice, but the boss needs workers to be fucking safe, he has the right to fire Johnny for not complying with safety regulations, which is what workplace covid mandates are. If you don't take addiquite safety measures according to your workplace, you SHOULD be fired lest you put yourself or anyone else at risk."
This is a brilliant illustration. If only those people could read
And now my impression of the caller: “But you do agree that hard hats aren’t 100% effective at preventing cranial damage by cinder block or steel beam? I have this study that shows that hard hats did not prevent these workers from dying on the job from cranial trauma (never mind the trauma was caused by falling from significant height and it was in 1973). It’s coercion to force all construction workers to wear hard hats. Also, you spelled ‘adequate’ wrong.”
I watch a lot of these videos but never has my brain hurt so much from trying to follow someone else's logic
The fact that this guy just isn't getting it shows me how incapable of critical thinking he is. (The whole convo at 1:12:00 ish)
Seriously vaush is trying so hard to get him to realize how wrong he is and just simply cannot comprehend the questions he’s being asked
@@rainbowkrampus Maybe, I just don't get why people do this and every time I experience it, I know that's a person I can no longer talk to.
“DON’T watch this debate if you value your brain cells”
me: jokes on you! i never had any brain cells to begin with!
Because you’re a communist
@@paultoc2657 SO TRUE BRO!
@@paultoc2657 Correct
@@paultoc2657 Yep. We're communist and we're proud.
@@paultoc2657 man you totally wreked those commies! Totally owned them!
Thanks for holding such FABULOUS beliefs
My brain cells need the self esteem boost, letsgooo
Edit: 1 hour and 20 minutes in. I have made a mistake. There's no escape. If I hear "that's your assumption, you made that up" one more time I'm going to pull my ears off and eat them.
so how did they taste?
He's trying to use the studies he doesn't understand to falsify the conclusion of the same studies. As if the scientists just mixed up their numbers. At the same time, he can't calculate a percentage
Support baby tyranny. There needs to be more.
I love Vaush walking him into baby vaccines and he tries to pivot when his answer would contract his covid position.
I just got to the "how many people do you think have died?" Part, and... Holy fucking shit. Incredible stuff.
Holy shit this debate is hilarious. From the fact that he didn't know you have to move the decimal places to thinking that imperfect vaccination is when you still get sick. Fantastic
I love how many times he will just blue screen for 5 full seconds before restarting and going down the exact same dialog tree
Kind of missing the point of the anti vax and anti mandate people. When you talk to them in private they say “errr, covid only affects fat and old people, I’m not fat or old why should I be inconvenienced”. It’s a compassion issue, not a science one.
There's also rank stupidity. I've continuously heard these quarter-wits scoff at it only have a 1-2% mortality rate. ............. Well WTF else have you ever voluntarily done in you're life that had a 1 in 50 chance of your death? Literal diving from the skies with a big pillowcase strapped to your back has like a what, 1 in a few tens of thousands of a chance to kill you?
When they can't calculate percentages you know they are running on 2 brain cells
Im learning when dealing with right wingers and anti vax when they say "this is a different topic or your changing subject it means "I have no way to refute your argument"
Franco actually claims to be a left winger. I'm serious. He has a youtube channel of his own.
On the contrary. I feel my brain cells are increasing their resilience to conservatism by listening.
20 minutes in, counting down to “I don’t like your sources because *conspiracy* over mine that might even be the same source”
Instead of drinking i listen to Vauwsh explain how to interpret statistical data to conspiracists.
It may kill brain cells, and contributes to depression, but its not nearly as rough on the ligaments and cardiovascular system.
Also i can do it at work without a drop in productivity.
It took 25 minutes for him to start parroting the "aCTUAllY ThE COvId DeAtH rAtE iS inFlAtEd" pathetic
1. Studies show peak viral loads are similar between vax & unvax but vax have their viral loads drop off much much quicker, meaning they recover much quicker. This leads to a lower transmission. Also, the viral loads include more dead virus for vax individuals, likely due to their increased immune response. since they don’t differentiate, the peaks probably aren’t truly equivalent.
2. Studies also show vax people in households recover quicker and are less likely to get COVID, and unvax people who live in a household with vaccinated individuals are less likely to get the disease
Vaush says he’s probably vaxxed, he replies “you can’t prove it” has major vibes of a 6 year old with a face smeared with chocolate “I didn’t eat the cookies, you can’t prove it”
I need to hear some sanity for the covid argument, I went to a gym where I saw at least 60 people with 1 guy wearing a mask and then go to a taco place where no one is wearing a mask and walk through the door to my parents placeand hear my mom say basically" California and everything is so locked down, people need to get out"
like, fuck this covid debate is fucking maddening
Is there anywhere actually locked down in the US?
Not really lol they even lowered quarantine time from 10 days to 5 days
@@Delicious_Oreoz that actually has me pretty suspicious of the cdc, so omicron is more infectious but it's not that bad and we don't need 10 day quarantine anymore cause people need to work?
@@faceless_man566 yeah CDC probably getting that bread from Delta Airliner. I heard they asked the CDC to lower the quarantine time cause they needed workers back. I honestly wouldnt be suprised if this surge that's happening gets worse then when covid started especially since it spreads easily.
@@Delicious_Oreoz and pretty much no one is really giving a shit
This dude is your typical nut job. If he can’t set the false premise and false reality that he needs to make his argument, he just spirals into nonsense and really show their crazy
At around 13:16, when the point was made that vaccinated individuals had similar peak viral load to unvaccinated individuals, a secondary point was not addressed: That vaccinated individuals had accelerated viral clearance. This means that, effectively, the duration of time where a vaccinated individual was contagious was that much less than an unvaccinated individual. Less time being contagious means less spread, despite similar levels of peak viral load.
This is something anti-vaxxers often overlook because it's a more nuanced point. Ignorance ignores nuance.