SHADOW & CLAW (BOOK OF THE NEW SUN) | Spoiler Chat w/ Christopher Ruocchio
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- Опубліковано 30 чер 2022
- On this Side Quest, Jordan and author Christopher Ruocchio discuss The Shadow of the Torturer and The Claw of the Conciliator, the first half of Gene Wolfe’s epic masterpiece The Book of the New Sun.
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Late to the party but I want to thank you guys for uploading this discussion. BotNS is a very important work and it’s rare to find people willing to tackle its themes and symbolism rather than just the basic plot.
Yes, I'm of the same opinion. There aren't enough BookTubers who examine themes, symbolism, and real character development. Thanks for watching, mate!
This is massive. And all of it is about my first work, cast on the tides of time. Jokes aside this is my favorite Scifi and I thank you both for this great gift.
Nice! Haha, no problem! Christopher and I hope to do it again in late July or early August for Sword & Citadel.
I’m near the end of two books and halfway through Angel’s Egg and I paused it all to stop and listen to this! Anyways it’s bed time and I’m about half way through, great discussion so far. BotNS is one I have to reread.
What is Angel's Egg? Is it a film?
@@iWizard yeah, it’s an anime film, Christopher recommended it to me actually. It’s dying earth, and apparently the inspiration for the Demiurge (ship) from Sun Eater came from it.
What a great conversation! This is exactly what I was looking for and now I can't wait to check out the Sword and Citadel discussion!
Thanks for watching, my friend. Cheers!
Finally getting a chance to watch this, and see I was name dropped in a very accurate way. 😅
Haha, now I’m forgetting how, or in what context, I referenced you.
Heck yeah 🤘
1:53:28 I had always reasoned that Severian's whim to place the painting among the trees in the forest was because he intuits it is in fact a painting of the moon and by now the moon is green from terraforming.
Hey, man. Thanks for watching! And thanks for that insight. I agree.
wow this is huge. Thanks mr iWizard & Ruocchio
No problem! Thanks for watching!
sigh, i guess i gotta read this guy now too
Haha, thanks for watching! You won't regret reading Book of the New Sun. :)
@@iWizard I was of course referring to your guest, Wolfe sits in place of pride on my top shelf.
Have you read Mr. R's work?
Ruocchio for the win! 🏆
Thanks for watching!
Read the Douay Rheims translation of the Bible which is the traditional Catholic translation Wolfe would have used.
Thanks, this is helpful! Cheers!
There really is no way to spoil Book of the New Sun.
True. 😂
I've only read Shadow and Claw once this year.
I know you guys invoked Wolfe's engineering background as a positive in the sense of a Talebian skin in the game mindset. But its quite amazing that someone from the most mechanistic discipline can come up with such a story. Iain Mcgilchrist remarks that out of all the sciences, the physicists are the most open to 'spirituality'.
What kind of personal history and way of being do you think is required of an author to create such a story as BotNS
Thanks for watching! Yes, I like Iain McGilchrist and think some of Taleb's ideas are interesting and accurate, too. I also share your amazement that someone with a pretty conventional engineering background could ever write like Wolfe. His prose is so evocative and tightly coiled, his sentences are just brimming over with substance and meaning. I would argue that his stories, moreover, are characterized by what Harold Bloom called "idiosyncratic strangeness," which he defined as "a mode of originality that either cannot be assimilated, or that so assimilates us that we cease to see it as strange.” One wonders where Wolfe got the training.
@@iWizard Wolfe wrote his first stories for a College literary magazine before he completed his studies.
great chat guys i bounced off new sun like a brick wall last year. I got to severian leaving the guild and afterwards the story just seemed to meander and i felt like i didn't know where it was going nor was severian that likeable at that point. I kind of want to maybe give it another go, what's that dictionary Christopher mentioned to you?
Thanks for watching, Dan! Yes, the book definitely changes after Severian leaves the Torturer’s Guild. As I said in the chat, it becomes more symbolic and surrealistic; the latter half reminds me almost of Hesse’s Siddhartha. The dictionary is called Lexicon Urthus, by Michael Andre-Driussi
This is a great discussion.
I love LOTR, it is among my all-time favourites.
I have read BOTNS and appreciated many things about it - like he basically spoils the book in the first chapter, then the way he writes at the end of each segment - reader if you don't want to go on with me any further I understand - haha, and finally the way he introduces concepts. When I started reading and it was this medieval-like setting and I was like - why is this SFF? - and then he just gradually introduces the concepts and I was just amazed.
However, it is known BOTNS is better on rereads. There were issues which prevented me from rereading: a) The multiple archaic words really disrupted my reading experience b) The main one: the way Severian discusses female characters really bothered me. I realise he is an unreliable narrator and there is his specific upbringing but I couldn't overcome my discomfort to pick it up again.
I completely agree with Mr Ruocchio when he discusses the casual reader - it was a fine read but not my favourite.
Fun fact: I read BOTNS and then tried Empire of Silence by Mr Ruocchio much later. I was convinced it was his main influence (I haven't read Dune) and then I found he hadn't even read it until he finished writing Book 1! I didn't finish Empire of Silence (read about 55%) but it's strange how creative minds work - SFF, first person unreliable narrator, archaic words.
I loved NOTW by Rothfuss. Still occasionally get sad about (lack of) Book 3.😥 I actually find his writing very lyrical.
Donna Tartt is currently a favourite author of mine. I read (and re-read) all three of her books earlier this year and was completely blown away. Her writing is so beautiful, there are passages that stay with me long after I've finished the books.
Thanks for the discussion.
Thanks for watching, and thanks for this rich engagement! Yes, I too am enjoying BOTNS, especially, as you point out, the subtle SF hints that become more apparent as you read, the way in which Wolfe nonchalantly takes you around the world, "making the marvelous seem mundane so that the mundane seems marvelous," to paraphrase John W. Campbell.
Also, yes, now that I've read the first half of BOTNS, I am in agreement with you that Wolfe is the main influence on the Sun Eater series. I feel like the Wolfe influence is heaviest in Howling Dark. I was picking up more Dune vibes in Empire of Silence.
And yes, Donna Tartt is amazing!! One of my favorite authors.
Thanks, Paromita!
@@iWizard Thanks for the reply!
If you don't mind me asking, would you be willing to recommend any authors like Tartt with similarly evocative prose? I have searched a lot on Goodreads and Reddit and tried out suggestions to no avail so far.
@@Paromita_M Richard Russo (start with Empire Falls), Richard Ford (The Bascombe series), John Updike (everything), Muriel Barbery (I quite like the Elegance of the Hedgehog), Jeffrey Eugenides (Marriage Plot, Virgin Suicides), Jonathan Franzen (The Corrections). I quite like Lionel Shriver as well; her most famous book is We Need To Talk About Kevin, but there are other really good ones. Those are some of my favorites when it comes to great prose (off the top of my head).
@@iWizard Thank you so much! I've heard of some of these (Marriage Plot, The Corrections) but not read any. Really looking forward to some enriching reads. Thanks so much for replying once again. 🙂
@@Paromita_M Wow! You read those so quickly, Paromita! I'm glad you enjoyed them. I've never read Middlesex, but I hear it's great. I wonder... do you like Charles Dickens? Dickens is my favorite author, probably. How about Thomas Hardy? If you want gorgeous, lyrical, psychologically penetrating prose, I would recommend something like Tess of the D'Urbervilles, by Thomas Hardy.
What dictionary is it that was recommended when reading?
I'm using the Lexicon Urthus: A Dictionary of Urth, by Michael Andre-Driussi. The Introduction is written by Gene Wolfe himself.
honestly move over the Dwyane "the Rock" Johnson, Ruocchio is coming for your appelation. Christopher "the Ruocc"
umm, I guess that kinda works
only 30 mins in but so far i appreciate you guys for not getting political and reddit about the book, watched a highly recommended rundown of the books and they were complaining about misogyny and white men and ive been hearing that bullshit for like ten years now. thanks for not being obnoxious
I know what you mean. Christopher and I both hate that stuff. Glad to have you in our crew!