Campag record 10 mechanical shifters. Been riding a bike with these for 24 years, work beautifully and still do. I also ride 8 speed chorus campag fron 93. These are still a pleasure to use after 1000s of miles.
I am in contract currently with a custom steel frame builder and I have a brand new Centaur 10 speed group going on that bike. I'm done with the industry keeping me broke selling me BS junk.
Here's a couple things I think would help the industry. 1. A hydraulic brake bleed port thread standard. I should not have to buy different bleed kits for every single type of brake we have. 2. No DOT fluid. Sorry SRAM 3. Get rid of Rock Shox Torque Caps. People really dont get it and its not helping. It just means that I cant swap wheels without buying new hub end caps and some hubs wont work with them. 4. Get rid of 203mm disc rotor size. Make it all by 20mm. 140 160 180 200 220... Shimano doesnt make adapters for 200mm.....why. Just my two cents.
All fair points. But just look at the different bottom bracket standards we've gone through. The bike industry just wants your money. Maybe not directly, but by forcing you to buy different tools for the exact same job on different bikes is just ridiculous. It's a conspiracy I tell you 😉
AMEN! like this is just change for the sake of change. It's 100% not needed. I have filmed a vid where I literally did a decent climbing route on a 6 SPEED FREEWHEEL and it was totally acceptable. I'm riding a 7 speed setup now (given I live in flatter terrain) but use the lowest gear due to offroad+sand and it's still fine.
I'm holding out for 14 speed, so I will never again have to use a front derailleur. 😉 It's been over 20 years since I bought a new bike, and that has Shimano Ultegra 9 speed components that came with the bike. Plenty enough gears and ratios for where I live in the relatively flat state of Florida in the US. We do have some small hills here in the center of the state, but nothing that a 9 speed cassette can't handle. When I first started serious riding and racing back in 1980, 5 and 6 speed freewheels, and downtube shifters, were the thing. I never would have envisioned what we have available today. 😲
If the UCI would relax the rules that all the equipment has to be for sale within twelve months it could allow development without it being forced on the mass market.
Asking why 13 speed is coming when we've been adding extra sprockets to our bikes over the last 6 decades... I'm with you though, I think mechanical groupsets peaked at 10 speed, I've found 11 and 12 speed groupsets to be particularly finicky, a massive compromise, and a massive expense. 8 speed shifts flawlessly and is incredibly forgiving, it takes a lot for it to need an adjustment. I think the shift (no pun intended) to electronic shifting is just a cover up for the poor mechanical abilities of such drivetrains. We're sold what would otherwise be a sub-par product repackaged as a top-tier product with batteries and computer interfaces and all kinds of things that allow it to function well at all, for a higher price. I've already seen what happens when SRAM make a bottom tier mechanical 12 speed mountain bike groupset... it's unacceptable and still relatively expensive to be gambling on something that may or may not work from new (SX and NX, both terrible). However, I also think of drivetrains like transistor radios. We went from 3 transistors to 5 transistors, to 7, 9, 11 and then 13. Each time they increased the transistor count they waited until we'd all bought one before releasing the next one, but the truth was that they already knew how to make a radio with 13 transistors the minute they figured out how to make one with 5. The only reason we haven't had widespread production of 13 speed drivetrains yet is because they've been making money selling 9/10/11/12 on the way there. Who knows where the limit is, but I'm getting a bit bored of it all.
Something new to buy, now that supply of the old stuff has caught up with demand. 1x drive trains are probably the excuse. Probably it will feature an 8 tooth sprocket so cranksets with a 40 tooth chainring will become obsolete. A 32 would then be plenty!
Durability was sacrificed on the alter of the scale. You can't keep making more and more using less and less without something giving eventually. It's the reason 105 has more steel than Ultegra and Ultegra has more steel and less CFRP than Dura Ace. Niobium is stronger than 4130 which is stronger than 1020. But when they are 0.45 mm, 0.65 mm and 0.120 mm not so much.
Absolute silliness, honestly feels like the sort of capitalism we see everywhere with the mindset “everything must keep growing FOREVER” I think diminishing returns start probably around 9 speed or maybe 10. Your chain is narrowing, the pull ratios have to change, and every component is that little bit more expensive. They can force that too when they control a huge chunk of the market when most folks would be more than happy with an 8-10 speed, and mechanical means of shifting. Maybe I’m just getting old but I really don’t need any more things to charge…
I have so many parts that I need to keep charged, bike computer, Di2 battery, radar, cadence and speed sensors, earbuds, phone, etc. And then there's that bluetooth connection to keep it all talking to each other. I'm going back to mechanical and rim brakes with a custom steel build. It's all nice when it works but if you ride as much as I do it also can be a pain in the butt. Can't tell you how many times something has quit on me because I didn't keep on top of it.
Then in 3 years after they switch everyone over to 1x they'll say "we're now introducing a revolutionary 2x or 3x systems which will eliminate your 1x systems main issue, i.e. an extremely long rear derailleur cage that get's in the way of everything."
@@thefreebikes4kidschannel279 Agree, but that's the direction they are heading and they will be using one more gear on the rear cassette as an advantage. Typical for the bike industry ehhh!??? Marketing, convince people what they have isn't good enough. I still have a couple steel bikes that have Dura Ace 9spd triples and 700 23 tires and rim brakes...and they ride great. I've ridden one (Land Shark) in the Dolomites (Maratona dles Dolomties) and French Alps. Only issue I am having is parts are getting difficult to find.
It's pretty unlikely I'd buy an off the shelf (non-mtb) bike again. There's always something I don't like about them, or I like them but they cost the same as a used airplane. I like buying cheap new frames and finding new parts endlessly discounted so I get a unique, custom build with everything I want and nothing I don't. Shimano mechanical 11 speed and 2x is incredibly cheap and works quite well. Someday I'd consider one of the newcomer drivetrain brands, but the price difference isn't there to move from discounted Shimano.
I have 11 and 12 speed xtr both shifts very good but 11 speed is good enough i also put archer components electronic system on the 12 speed and the motor burned after one season not fun in the trails the cie said no warranty so i put back the xtr mechanical shifter it goes real good...we dont need 13 speed just better things that works good and for more than one season 11 speed chain last longer for me...people have the choice buy or not buy
12sp chains definitely last longer than 10sp chains. The metal hardening has advanced so much since 10sp that it more than compensates for the narrower pins. A 10sp chain would be more reliable if the used the same material but they don't, and won't do that.
Wanted to go back and check myself, but it's worth having another look at the Cues press information. The link-glide chain works across 9,10 & 11 speed and is supposed to be significantly more durable.
@petermcinnes6987 they won't be using the same, hard pins that are in the 12sp chains. It's an overall, drop in the bucket in cost to shimano but penny pinching is why CUES exists
I have a 2011 aluminum Synapse with a Tiagra triple crank, an 11-34 cassette and a 105 10-speed drivetrain. I have never thought, "Gee, if I only had three extra gears, I could win the Tour!" I've never felt the need to upgrade. Comparing my 10-speed road bike to my 9-speed mountain bikes, if the road bike was changed to 9-speed SORA, I'm not sure I could tell the difference.
Agreed. Microshift Sword & Advent X should be a wake-up call for SRAM & Shimano, in my opinion. Cable shifting, cable brakes. 11-48 cassette. You can buy chainrings for a GRX 1x crank from 34T to 46T. When some of the premium 12-speed mountain bike cassettes are closing in on $500 USD, an Advent X or Sword drivetrain coupled to Paul Klamper or Growtac brakes on a good aluminum gravel bike frame seems like a way to tell the industry, "no." This would not be a podium winning bike, but it would be good enough to complete any gravel event, get you to work, and train all you want. If you're not actively RACING, the industry is alienating much of the population.
The Campagnolo super record 13 speed offering has now been found to have chain bushing wear and longevity issues , a road discipline friend , has found .
They don't tell you when you buy into that 13 speed group it requires specific cables that are 4x the price. Just thought I would let everyone know that.
@@robertmcfadyen9156 Sorry, I was referring to EKAR which has it's problems too as a 13 speed. Just kind of states a fact that more than 12 speed just isn't needed even for Pros.
Yes, things are definitely going in the wrong direction. Campagnolo at least reserve 13 speed for their gravel 1 x groupset, where it makes more sense. My own bike is a Fairlight Strael v3 steel 4 season road bike. Ultegra mechanical 11 speed, with no proprietary parts and fully external routing for cables and hoses. Sometimes, i wonder about electronic, carbon, lightweight this and that, but my bike actually does everything you could ask of it, and has no problems climbing or keeping up on the group ride. Interestingly, on a recent group ride, someone's sram axs electronic was shifting terrible and making all sorts of crunching noises. I've also witnessed someone losing battery charge mid ride on more than one occasion. Like everything, if you dont or aren't capable of maintaining something, it will eventually let you down.
Definitely the wrong direction! I have 10 Speed Ultegra mechanical with external routing on my road bike....its great! I know plenty of people on 12 speed having issues and don't get me started on the batteries 😆
@thefreebikes4kidschannel279 likewise, I'm horrified by the push for full cable and hose integration. UA-cam vloggers like David Arthur are pushing the agenda and even claiming that we riders are demanding to have it. Maybe the fashion conscious rider who doesn't maintain their own bike wants it, but I certainly don't!
@@Quizmate1Bicycles with internal cable entry points inadvertently become structurally weaker . Especially when it comes to needing to make holes in carbon fiber steerer tubes . Sheathing and hose abrasion is a new problem .
And also...why the hell is Shimano GRX 12 speed shifter not compatible with 12 speed mountain drivetrains. Drop bar conversions are a real thing now that I would love to do to my hardtail but I cant. SRAM has this beautifully covered with AXS because everything is compatible. And honestly I havent even check to see if theres a mechanical SRAM road shifter that will work with SRAM mountain drivetrains. Also, SRAM has so much technical information easily available for everyone to have while shimano is almost impossible. I was a shimano guy for my entire life, but since getting a SRAM bike last year I am seeing why they have become so popular, even though I do still prefer shimano drivetrains and brakes.
Whole heartedly agree with you. It’s the rider not the bike. 10 speed and rim brakes on a road bike is all you ever need. I also think if these companies say “it’s for the racers” then don’t make it a retail product. Send it to your sponsored racers to use and leave the public market be.
Keeping up with the CampaJoneses? As a matter of fact, there are plenty of people who _need_ 13 speeds - the ones who would be happy to let the world know that _they_ need 13 speeds.
Having a battery that cannot be changed won't fly. Anyone remember the iphone right to repair court battle? Shimano ain't as big as Apple so they would loose that battle in a heartbeat.
Perhaps Shimano would be better to concentrate their efforts on replacing every single example of their self exploding crank sets including all the ones innocent owners had to junk while Shimano lied that there was a problem. Awful company with gutter morals.
Simple answer. To make the gullible rich buy them just to make them feel 'top of the pops' and not because there is any form of necessity for a 13 speed cassette. I ride mechanical Claris 2x8 speed on my road bike, shifting is very smooth, I don't feel the need for more gears, and my chain is beefy and never breaks. My first road bike was a 1x5 speed with downtube shifters back in the 80's. So 16 gears is mega for me. Same goes with the Di2 shifting gimmick. A solution to a problem which never existed, which eventually results in new problems. To each their own. I can easily afford to buy the latest gimmicks, but will not as I have a brain and I like to use it. But to each their own, go ahead and buy the Di2 13 speed . . . . that will make you sooooo much faster ayyy 😂😂
Campag record 10 mechanical shifters. Been riding a bike with these for 24 years, work beautifully and still do. I also ride 8 speed chorus campag fron 93. These are still a pleasure to use after 1000s of miles.
I am in contract currently with a custom steel frame builder and I have a brand new Centaur 10 speed group going on that bike. I'm done with the industry keeping me broke selling me BS junk.
Here's a couple things I think would help the industry.
1. A hydraulic brake bleed port thread standard. I should not have to buy different bleed kits for every single type of brake we have.
2. No DOT fluid. Sorry SRAM
3. Get rid of Rock Shox Torque Caps. People really dont get it and its not helping. It just means that I cant swap wheels without buying new hub end caps and some hubs wont work with them.
4. Get rid of 203mm disc rotor size. Make it all by 20mm. 140 160 180 200 220... Shimano doesnt make adapters for 200mm.....why.
Just my two cents.
All fair points. But just look at the different bottom bracket standards we've gone through. The bike industry just wants your money. Maybe not directly, but by forcing you to buy different tools for the exact same job on different bikes is just ridiculous. It's a conspiracy I tell you 😉
AMEN! like this is just change for the sake of change. It's 100% not needed.
I have filmed a vid where I literally did a decent climbing route on a 6 SPEED FREEWHEEL and it was totally acceptable.
I'm riding a 7 speed setup now (given I live in flatter terrain) but use the lowest gear due to offroad+sand and it's still fine.
Exactly this....its not how many gears,its the range and ratios.
@@thefreebikes4kidschannel27910 x 3 is my sweet spot .
I think it's great. People with money to burn can get the fancy new stuff, while we buy their leftover 11 speed and now 12 speed stuff for peanuts.
❤ 9 speed! Buy it up now!
I'm holding out for 14 speed, so I will never again have to use a front derailleur. 😉 It's been over 20 years since I bought a new bike, and that has Shimano Ultegra 9 speed components that came with the bike. Plenty enough gears and ratios for where I live in the relatively flat state of Florida in the US. We do have some small hills here in the center of the state, but nothing that a 9 speed cassette can't handle. When I first started serious riding and racing back in 1980, 5 and 6 speed freewheels, and downtube shifters, were the thing. I never would have envisioned what we have available today. 😲
If the UCI would relax the rules that all the equipment has to be for sale within twelve months it could allow development without it being forced on the mass market.
Asking why 13 speed is coming when we've been adding extra sprockets to our bikes over the last 6 decades... I'm with you though, I think mechanical groupsets peaked at 10 speed, I've found 11 and 12 speed groupsets to be particularly finicky, a massive compromise, and a massive expense. 8 speed shifts flawlessly and is incredibly forgiving, it takes a lot for it to need an adjustment.
I think the shift (no pun intended) to electronic shifting is just a cover up for the poor mechanical abilities of such drivetrains. We're sold what would otherwise be a sub-par product repackaged as a top-tier product with batteries and computer interfaces and all kinds of things that allow it to function well at all, for a higher price. I've already seen what happens when SRAM make a bottom tier mechanical 12 speed mountain bike groupset... it's unacceptable and still relatively expensive to be gambling on something that may or may not work from new (SX and NX, both terrible).
However, I also think of drivetrains like transistor radios. We went from 3 transistors to 5 transistors, to 7, 9, 11 and then 13. Each time they increased the transistor count they waited until we'd all bought one before releasing the next one, but the truth was that they already knew how to make a radio with 13 transistors the minute they figured out how to make one with 5. The only reason we haven't had widespread production of 13 speed drivetrains yet is because they've been making money selling 9/10/11/12 on the way there. Who knows where the limit is, but I'm getting a bit bored of it all.
Something new to buy, now that supply of the old stuff has caught up with demand. 1x drive trains are probably the excuse. Probably it will feature an 8 tooth sprocket so cranksets with a 40 tooth chainring will become obsolete. A 32 would then be plenty!
Dura Ace 7700 was peak Shimano.
Definitely!
Agreed. I am 43 and have been riding since I was 14. I NEVER ever broke a chain back before 12 speed and I have broken 3 chains in the last two years.
*Well, case closed then*
Durability was sacrificed on the alter of the scale. You can't keep making more and more using less and less without something giving eventually. It's the reason 105 has more steel than Ultegra and Ultegra has more steel and less CFRP than Dura Ace.
Niobium is stronger than 4130 which is stronger than 1020. But when they are 0.45 mm, 0.65 mm and 0.120 mm not so much.
Absolute silliness, honestly feels like the sort of capitalism we see everywhere with the mindset “everything must keep growing FOREVER”
I think diminishing returns start probably around 9 speed or maybe 10. Your chain is narrowing, the pull ratios have to change, and every component is that little bit more expensive.
They can force that too when they control a huge chunk of the market when most folks would be more than happy with an 8-10 speed, and mechanical means of shifting. Maybe I’m just getting old but I really don’t need any more things to charge…
I have so many parts that I need to keep charged, bike computer, Di2 battery, radar, cadence and speed sensors, earbuds, phone, etc. And then there's that bluetooth connection to keep it all talking to each other. I'm going back to mechanical and rim brakes with a custom steel build. It's all nice when it works but if you ride as much as I do it also can be a pain in the butt. Can't tell you how many times something has quit on me because I didn't keep on top of it.
Could be useful with the future tendency to go to 1 by on the front.
Maybe ...but still seems like overkill.
Change for the sake of change....and bike sales of course.
Then in 3 years after they switch everyone over to 1x they'll say "we're now introducing a revolutionary 2x or 3x systems which will eliminate your 1x systems main issue, i.e. an extremely long rear derailleur cage that get's in the way of everything."
@@thefreebikes4kidschannel279 Agree, but that's the direction they are heading and they will be using one more gear on the rear cassette as an advantage.
Typical for the bike industry ehhh!??? Marketing, convince people what they have isn't good enough. I still have a couple steel bikes that have Dura Ace 9spd triples and 700 23 tires and rim brakes...and they ride great. I've ridden one (Land Shark) in the Dolomites (Maratona dles Dolomties) and French Alps. Only issue I am having is parts are getting difficult to find.
@@channul4887 yep....and you forgot chain angle!
It's pretty unlikely I'd buy an off the shelf (non-mtb) bike again. There's always something I don't like about them, or I like them but they cost the same as a used airplane. I like buying cheap new frames and finding new parts endlessly discounted so I get a unique, custom build with everything I want and nothing I don't. Shimano mechanical 11 speed and 2x is incredibly cheap and works quite well. Someday I'd consider one of the newcomer drivetrain brands, but the price difference isn't there to move from discounted Shimano.
I have 11 and 12 speed xtr both shifts very good but 11 speed is good enough i also put archer components electronic system on the 12 speed and the motor burned after one season not fun in the trails the cie said no warranty so i put back the xtr mechanical shifter it goes real good...we dont need 13 speed just better things that works good and for more than one season 11 speed chain last longer for me...people have the choice buy or not buy
Indeed. Chains made of cheese. In fairness to Shimano, CUES looks absolutely spot on. A nice cheap, reliable, 10 speed with wide ratios. Perfect
12sp chains definitely last longer than 10sp chains. The metal hardening has advanced so much since 10sp that it more than compensates for the narrower pins. A 10sp chain would be more reliable if the used the same material but they don't, and won't do that.
Wanted to go back and check myself, but it's worth having another look at the Cues press information. The link-glide chain works across 9,10 & 11 speed and is supposed to be significantly more durable.
@petermcinnes6987 they won't be using the same, hard pins that are in the 12sp chains. It's an overall, drop in the bucket in cost to shimano but penny pinching is why CUES exists
I have a 2011 aluminum Synapse with a Tiagra triple crank, an 11-34 cassette and a 105 10-speed drivetrain. I have never thought, "Gee, if I only had three extra gears, I could win the Tour!" I've never felt the need to upgrade. Comparing my 10-speed road bike to my 9-speed mountain bikes, if the road bike was changed to 9-speed SORA, I'm not sure I could tell the difference.
Spot on, the Industry is disappearing up its own backside.
Yes it's just about selling bikes.
Every year there has to be a new thing!
Agreed. Microshift Sword & Advent X should be a wake-up call for SRAM & Shimano, in my opinion. Cable shifting, cable brakes. 11-48 cassette. You can buy chainrings for a GRX 1x crank from 34T to 46T. When some of the premium 12-speed mountain bike cassettes are closing in on $500 USD, an Advent X or Sword drivetrain coupled to Paul Klamper or Growtac brakes on a good aluminum gravel bike frame seems like a way to tell the industry, "no." This would not be a podium winning bike, but it would be good enough to complete any gravel event, get you to work, and train all you want. If you're not actively RACING, the industry is alienating much of the population.
The Campagnolo super record 13 speed offering has now been found to have chain bushing wear and longevity issues , a road discipline friend , has found .
They don't tell you when you buy into that 13 speed group it requires specific cables that are 4x the price. Just thought I would let everyone know that.
@@charlesmansplaining This groupset is electronic , though .
@@robertmcfadyen9156 Sorry, I was referring to EKAR which has it's problems too as a 13 speed. Just kind of states a fact that more than 12 speed just isn't needed even for Pros.
Yes, things are definitely going in the wrong direction. Campagnolo at least reserve 13 speed for their gravel 1 x groupset, where it makes more sense. My own bike is a Fairlight Strael v3 steel 4 season road bike. Ultegra mechanical 11 speed, with no proprietary parts and fully external routing for cables and hoses. Sometimes, i wonder about electronic, carbon, lightweight this and that, but my bike actually does everything you could ask of it, and has no problems climbing or keeping up on the group ride.
Interestingly, on a recent group ride, someone's sram axs electronic was shifting terrible and making all sorts of crunching noises. I've also witnessed someone losing battery charge mid ride on more than one occasion. Like everything, if you dont or aren't capable of maintaining something, it will eventually let you down.
Definitely the wrong direction!
I have 10 Speed Ultegra mechanical with external routing on my road bike....its great!
I know plenty of people on 12 speed having issues and don't get me started on the batteries 😆
@thefreebikes4kidschannel279 likewise, I'm horrified by the push for full cable and hose integration. UA-cam vloggers like David Arthur are pushing the agenda and even claiming that we riders are demanding to have it. Maybe the fashion conscious rider who doesn't maintain their own bike wants it, but I certainly don't!
@@Quizmate1David Arthur is a pressurised trendie , it seems . Must have vested industry interests .
@@Quizmate1Let's see David Arthur do a new Giant TCR 9 rebuild and diagnosis for a hurried client and see how he copes and feels afterwards .
@@Quizmate1Bicycles with internal cable entry points inadvertently become structurally weaker . Especially when it comes to needing to make holes in carbon fiber steerer tubes . Sheathing and hose abrasion is a new problem .
Thanks, we accept that for iPhones and teslas? That ls my point. It’s quite logical!
Internal batteries that aren’t changeable. Like an iPhone or Tesla???
That's how it looks from the patent drawings.
And also...why the hell is Shimano GRX 12 speed shifter not compatible with 12 speed mountain drivetrains. Drop bar conversions are a real thing now that I would love to do to my hardtail but I cant. SRAM has this beautifully covered with AXS because everything is compatible. And honestly I havent even check to see if theres a mechanical SRAM road shifter that will work with SRAM mountain drivetrains. Also, SRAM has so much technical information easily available for everyone to have while shimano is almost impossible. I was a shimano guy for my entire life, but since getting a SRAM bike last year I am seeing why they have become so popular, even though I do still prefer shimano drivetrains and brakes.
Who cares if nobody needs it. Being able to dial in your cadence with more gears is nice.
11 sp is enough!!!
Whole heartedly agree with you. It’s the rider not the bike. 10 speed and rim brakes on a road bike is all you ever need. I also think if these companies say “it’s for the racers” then don’t make it a retail product. Send it to your sponsored racers to use and leave the public market be.
Keeping up with the CampaJoneses? As a matter of fact, there are plenty of people who _need_ 13 speeds - the ones who would be happy to let the world know that _they_ need 13 speeds.
Its called marketing. I'm skipping this upgrade and waiting for 14 or maybe 15.
Having a battery that cannot be changed won't fly. Anyone remember the iphone right to repair court battle? Shimano ain't as big as Apple so they would loose that battle in a heartbeat.
😂😂
that's easy, because people will pay for it champ. you can blame sram.
Perhaps Shimano would be better to concentrate their efforts on replacing every single example of their self exploding crank sets including all the ones innocent owners had to junk while Shimano lied that there was a problem. Awful company with gutter morals.
Simple answer. To make the gullible rich buy them just to make them feel 'top of the pops' and not because there is any form of necessity for a 13 speed cassette. I ride mechanical Claris 2x8 speed on my road bike, shifting is very smooth, I don't feel the need for more gears, and my chain is beefy and never breaks. My first road bike was a 1x5 speed with downtube shifters back in the 80's. So 16 gears is mega for me. Same goes with the Di2 shifting gimmick. A solution to a problem which never existed, which eventually results in new problems. To each their own. I can easily afford to buy the latest gimmicks, but will not as I have a brain and I like to use it. But to each their own, go ahead and buy the Di2 13 speed . . . . that will make you sooooo much faster ayyy 😂😂