Secret to Running a $1 Million Solo Design Agency
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- Опубліковано 11 тра 2023
- In the video, Chris and Brett discuss the advantages of subscription-based pricing for design services. Brett explains that his agency, Design Joy, is a one-man design subscription service that he started in 2017, following a layoff from a traditional design agency. He saw an opportunity in the market for a subscription-based service for higher-end design work and decided to start his own agency. He targets clients who want ongoing design work, such as branding, product design, and landing page design.
Brett compares the subscription model to a retainer, but explains that it is more productized, with fixed outcomes and a fixed fee. He likens the pricing page of a software product to the way he sells design services. His clients pay a recurring fee of $5,000 per month for unlimited requests, unlimited revisions, and a two-to-three day turnaround on requests. The outcome is fixed, but the actual volume of output can vary depending on the client's needs.
Brett discusses the advantages of subscription-based pricing over hourly or project-based pricing. He notes that it provides stability for both the client and the designer, as clients know what they are paying for and designers know what they are delivering. He also talks about the importance of trust and communication with clients, and how subscription-based pricing can help build that trust.
The conversation ends with a discussion of the potential for high revenue through subscription-based pricing, and the importance of sharing transparently to help others in the industry. Bret shares his experience of earning $120,000 per month from 20 clients, but emphasizes that this is not a model that everyone should follow blindly. He encourages designers to find their own path and share their experiences with others.
Find out more about Bret @ www.designjoy.co/
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Chris is a fantastic interviewer. He has all of the experience and success in the world, but carries no ego into these interviews. Genuine curiosity and knows how to ask the things that listeners want to hear.
Thank you so much.
Well said, so many interviewers throw softball pitch like questions or pre-discussed, many are blatant to. But as a fan of Chris for numerous years, he is All Class!!!
I went through a ton of videos where Brett was interviewed in the past week. This, however, is the best. Chris's structured thinking and finesse in succinctly communicating the required takeaway makes this a gem of a resource. Genuinely curious and forever eager to learn. He has the perfect designer mindset.
Thank you 🙏
why is he being interviewed so much? is he doing some sort of podcast rounds? what is going on?
Great interview! Chris is one of the few that's achieved as much as he has, yet actually listens and asks the right questions during interviews.
Here's a Full Detailed Summary:
00:00 Design Joy offers a productized design subscription service
- Design Joy was launched in 2017 as a one-man agency
- The subscription service is a fixed fee for a fixed outcome with the ability to pause or cancel anytime
06:05 Subscription model with fixed outcomes
- Subscription model includes fixed outcomes and variable output based on client needs
- 20-25 clients paying $5k/month, bringing in over $1M in revenue annually with 6-hour workdays
11:36 Intentionally seeking higher quality clients and refining client list can reduce workload and increase income.
- Charging higher rates and reducing number of clients can lead to better quality work and less stress.
- Playing the volume game with lower rates can lead to burnout and difficult clients.
00:05 Charge more to get higher quality clients
- Being good and quick is essential for a subscription model
- Pricing yourself higher can propel you into a better market
22:12 Working with low budget clients vs high budget clients
- Low budget clients tend to be Founders looking to validate their business model quickly and are more needy in terms of feedback and changes
- High budget clients value design, have trust in the designer, communicate their needs better, and have longer contracts
27:15 Established businesses make better clients for subscription-based models
- Established businesses are educated buyers who understand the value of high-quality design
- Productizing services and setting clear terms upfront can attract the right clients and minimize bad ones
32:12 Low variability in process equals low variability in outcomes.
- Having a documented and strict process helps to filter out clients who don't fit.
- Using a tool like Trello can streamline client interactions and project management.
37:02 Twitter post leads to doubling of revenue in a month
- Dan Rowden tweeted about Design Joy's revenue, leading to viral growth and 100+ bookings
- Building in public on Indie Hackers helped gain notoriety and a following on Twitter
42:22 Productized services can be simplified by targeting a specific audience and limiting requests.
- Targeting educated buyers who value the service is crucial.
- Limiting requests to one at a time and prioritizing them helps manage workload and maintain quality.
47:28 Assumption-based design can save time and still arrive at the same conclusion.
- Skipping wireframing and ideation can work if the designer has enough experience and skill.
- Design Joy was built through this process and has allowed for scalability and efficiency.
52:09 Design experience is more important than years of experience
- Designers should focus on obsession, immersion, and refinement
- There is no objective benchmark for design experience
56:51 Brett from Design Joy offers coaching and a course on productizing creative services.
- Designjoy is Brett's website where he shares insights on running Design Joy.
- The course, Productize Yourself, can be found at productizeyourself for $150.
Wow. Thank you.
Thank you man. ❤❤
Thank YOU
Ive been listening to this on Spotify since yesterday and to say this episode was 🔥is an understatement! Brett has to be one of my all time fav guests and there has been so many from the podcast! Chris - you are absolute legend for giving INSANE value every time. Your podcast is my Creative Business University that I plug into when Im driving and stuck in Indian traffic coz honestly - trying to design while listening to the gold nuggets you keep dropping is distracting.😂 So can easily get through an episode in traffic lol
I resonated with so many points Brett made and lives with, its inspired me to trust my gut more and go with what works for you and your clients. One of my Key takeaways - 'Design is meant to be Evolutionary.' Phew! Yes. Yes. Yes! As a self taught designer, its how Ive worked for the last 2 decades and clients have trusted me insanely with their brands and referred me. But hearing Brett talk about his process and thinking among others in this talk was constantly, Amen brother moments and in many ways validation from my peer who is absolutely living it! It just reiterates the belief- there is a place for everyone in this world. Give value and you get it back. Brett you are an inspiration! Thank you brother!
He is the most boring web designer. What is so exciting about him and his work?
I love his embrace and reliance on iteration as the foundation of his design process.
Achieving such a quick turnaround time only works, if the client promptly provides all the content and is clear about the design goals.
Spot on. So much time goes to waste on revisions, approvals, client understanding the workflow+what they need to supply us to complete the project etc.
Yes I'm dubious, 25+ years XP here,
30 clients at 6 hrs pd!?
And with "assuming" some parts, deadly... Or, dream clients!
should be part of your process probably have an SOP where you have the same design questions you ask every client then add those notes to the trello along with designs they like/dislike.
He outlined his process is very simple - no standing projects that are included in the subscription so there's no bottleneck in terms of getting the ball rolling. In another podcast, he also shared that his default style is to create based on his own expertise unless given more details. It's so different than the outdated agency model cause everyone is used to endless meetings, frantic emails, and lots of communication. He also said that he loved revisions cause the client drives that process and ends up extending the timeline and paying for another month or two of subscription if they want to drag things out. Man is brilliant.
@@forgeyourbrand do you have 25+ years working with clients mate?
This interview is very useful, you can really have an insight on how he does his work and how a one person agency works out. The fact that he is able to just work 6 hours a day and how he's design process is so short by skipping some steps is really valuable information for someone trying to mock this same type of agency.
I was waiting for you Chris to ask him about the transition from 9-5 to actually living out of his project. This is where I'm at now
Brett just earned himself another course subscriber :) Awesome business structure. Really inspirational.
I wish Chris had asked the obvious question: What happens when you get sick or want to take a vacation?
I was about to ask this! I guess if you get a cold you can warn your clients that the process might take a bit more time than usual, but if you're chronically ill that's another story... As for the holidays, maybe the subscriptions are paused on his side?
Genius. As a veteran designer, burnt out on hourly rates - this detailed chat is SO INTERESTING & POTENTIALLY LIFE-CHANGING.
wow! what have I been doing all these years?!?!?! These metrics are mind-blowing. Great job.
I think this guy really optimizes time management in his favor. One request at a time. 48 hour turn around times for updates/ concepts. The goal here isn’t to just work your ass day after day and do it as quick as you can. He spreads everything out and runs out the clock as best he can every month. I bet the day of the request does not count toward the lead times. I bet the lead time doesn’t start until he has every asset he needs from the client, like copy, specific product images etc…combine all this together and all the sudden a simple landing page for a clients new product turns into a 2 week long project with all the revisions and asset collection, and by constant sending small updates and he able to rest the clock and always keeps the ball in the clients hands.
It definitely has me gotten thinking about starting. A fantastic interview by Chris. Loved every minute of it❤
This was a really good interview. So insightful! And i liked your ending remarks Chris, about a man's ambitions not exceeding his worth. Good stuff!
Such an underrated conversation! I think everybody should listen to this just to know what's even possible! Great convo!
This is very interesting as it seems like the antithesis of all of the teaching on the futur.
From what I can tell, if he works 6 hours a day, 30 days a month, each client can expect at maximum 10 hours of work from him in a given month. Now that might be more than enough if the project is small and manageable and they only want one thing but how can he deliver on larger projects?
The only clients I can envisage being happy with his results are ones that don't care about originality or tailored solutions. Clients who are happy with work that looks highly templated so long as it is polished.
If that works for him, that's great but I wouldn't be able to stand working like that and I can't imagine how that could be worth 5 grand a month
Great interview. Thank you Bret for your straight forward answers. Also, thank you Chris for making this interview possible.
Loved this guy, he made it work and he is enjoying it. He is not crazy wanting more more more more...
This was a very enlightening video. I've been slowly shifting away from client work and into selling my own digital products but I like that he has a set of conditions to work with clients. Maybe if I take in commissions I can implement some of his process into my own.
This interview is a true treasure! Great work Chris 👏
I just love the info but the motivation I get, is crushing!! Thanks guy for streaming this podcast!
I’ve known of Brett for awhile and he’s a clever dude. I admire that he has a crystal clear ideal client and focuses in on them. He stacks up high budget, low design need clients to grow his monthly revenue while reducing output. Seems like he hit a healthy spot client wise and they’re happy with his work. Good stuff!
What makes you say his client is crystal clear?
Clients who have high budget and low design needs seems ambiguous to me and not crystal clear
What do you think?
@@user-ed9kt6mm2pdid you not watch the interview?
His clients understand good design, and it's value. He is 100% upfront and firm about what he provides and what his boundaries are. His subscription pricing, services, boundaries, and method of communication all work to weed out clients that don't understand the value, who couldn't fathom the concept of not taking meetings, who feel the need to micromanage, startups that arent long term clients, think they know how to do your job better than you, etc. (basically the kinds of red flags you see in people labeled as Karen's)
I'm willing to bet that for the most part going forward the clients he attracts will be referrerals from satisfied clients and they can view his work so they know the level of quality to expect and people they know have expressed their faith in him. Two pages two days on average from clients that have a clear well thought out idea what they are looking for and do a good job communicating their needs. He doesn't do rough layout, mood boards, brainstorming sessions, or any type of pre prod overall he has a pretty clear idea of what is wanted because the client has done a good job of communicating their needs and thoughts so he listens to their needs and can execute high quality work in a reasonable timeframe.
On top of all that there's a mindset with the wealthy. That mindset is that if your price is too cheap is a red flag for high end clients. A new client is probably looking for a full redesign, an existing client probably only wants minor updates and changes for several years, because you don't constantly go and overhaul the company's aesthetic. A brand has to be cohesive and clear, sweeping frequent changes, don't instil a sense of confidence in a possible customer, they give the appearance of problems within the leadership at a company, which is probably someone scared and irrational for one reason or another and that's not some business you want to trust in for a stack that you are going to have to spend a lot of money to train employees on it. It can take months to reach peak efficiency after introducing a new software depending on how different it works compared to the previous solution.
so kinda like an outsourced employee. it simplifies the payment but at the same time its kinda like on a retainer. Nice idea, will look more into this.
Great interview. Amazing story. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you Matthew
I have been listening to this on Spotify many times of this podcast, and I am very interested so much of this for all podcasts that I have been licensed in The Futur before, and now I got video. Thank you so much for your million lessons with one person who can run a successful Design Agency.
I've been wishing for this exact interview! Thank you!
You had me at zero tolerance for client meetings. 😂
I mean we can try, but I don't think the 5k clients would like it.
@@dj_Davepz I kid, I kid. :)
Amazing interview, so valuable, thanks Chris and Brett
Great interview! I've thought about something like this for years, but could never quite wrap my head around how to do it.
Love long format contents like this ❤❤❤ learned so much from the both of you! Thank you for this conversation
Our pleasure!
Such a cool episode! Love it! Thanks for sharing always such helpful content. Please do more graphics design related podcasts.
Wooow! I’m not a full time graphic designer (I wish I was). I’m in data management but I love and take on graphic design projects when possible. This business model is a break thru in the field, no doubt! My data management work could be a case study in this. Im the only data management staff in a team of 30, and I get request for projects all of the time. It is 100% possible. We should ALL adopt this. This should be the only way graphic designers operate. I’m def going to think this thru and adopt myself. Thank you both!
Awesome interview! This is awesome! From my experience doing web design/dev work - higher end clients have way different mentality, and are way easier to work with.
Thank you, gentlemen, you absolutely shine! 🙏
LOVED THIS VIDEO! 💖Please make a video on contracts and how to learn how to write them or obtain one.
This was one of the greatest, most inspirational podcast episodes I've ever seen! As a designer whom ultimately desires to transition completely from full time design to strictly contract work, this gives me a great model to work from. Three key takeaways:
1. Having a simplified process that works is KEY. I am going to try Trello. I currently use whatever apps my client uses and/or email and that frustrates my entire process. This video motivates me to better streamline my design processes and requests.
2. He is 100% truthful about 'high quality clients'. I have run into clients who care less about the price and more about the time and quality of work. These clients are hard to come by but they exist. These are the clients that have a legit budget for design/marketing and thus have projects that simply need to get done.
3. I notice a lot of comments taking the 'unlimited' piece out of context. He makes it clear that a client can only submit one request at a time. This is how he is able to manage the work as a one-man band. My secret as a designer that I have unlocked in my many years is that corporate companies (not all, some) are the easiest to design for. Their requests are quite template-based and to the point. I can do a weeks worth of design work for them in one day. These are the clients you want if you want to scale to this level!
My only question is how he schedules vacation, sick time, and time off! I need to know!!
He said He hasn't taken any vacation in 6 years on twitter. I guess you will have to pause the subscription and communicate to your 30 clients in advance
Thanks, Chris for sharing this is a very insightful video for me as a beginner
This is an awesome interview. It's the big project break down that I wish we had more details (like a website). But overall... super interesting.
Heard at one point he got burnt out or something and left some clients hanging... glad to see he's figured it out
Great stuff….currently working on building my business as a subscription model. Thanks for the free knowledge. I looked up both of his websites.
Love this chapter, thank you both for sharing
I got “punished” for being fast and good, my first design job I started as a Senior Designer and grew to Head of Design in less than a year, then because I was quick after 3 years the workload decreased drastically and I was very expensive to keep in the company. I moved to Development and its a more balanced world for me and I love it. Thank you for sharing this insightful knowledge exchange.
Wow that’s magic! This is exactly what I needed to know 🙏 Thank you!
whatever the topics are, the long format is good for me 👏🏻
I must admit: I am quite skeptical.
I can safely say that things are not always as they seem. I urge everyone to be careful who they take advice from and not believe everything they hear.
While it's always important to keep an open mind, it's equally important to do your own research and draw your own conclusions. If it sounds to good to be true...
Agreed, but Brett has also made that warning in the video. What works for him doesn't mean it would work for you.
I think the same
He’s fast because his designs are average and he pulls a lot from templates. BUT, I think he’s found clients (through attrition) that are ok with average. 1/2 his clients are other agencies. They value speed over getting mind blowing designs someone obsessed over.
I agree you shouldn't believe everything you see or hear online. But in this case, I'm willing to believe the majority of what is being said. In any industry, you can find clients who are cheap pricks (not frugal, but reusing floss and cooking chicken in the dish washer while washing dishes level cheap) who make jobs miserable and have you question your employment options. Higher end clients, even when being frugal, just behave better and are more pleasant to be around. It's not really the work you do, but rather who you do it for.
The course is pure BS and Chris Do should be ashamed of promoting this guy. I won't trust his words ever again.
September will be a good month for me, Lord willin'. Thank you for this! As a one-man machine myself, this is encouraging to see. It is affirming to me that it can be done, the right way for me.
Intelligent and informative conversation. Good Job!
Thanks so much for this. This guy run his business similar to mine. He really encourage me to keep moving forward an more strategically
I am interested to know how you manage to stay away from design burn out. Wondering if you use AI to suggest designs to you. Thought-designing is efficient but really relies on you draining your imagination over and over again with almost no days off. All in all, I'm super inspired to see you overcoming all of that and succeeding. This is pure inspiration.
Love this dude. Love how he views business
This is a great interview Chris and very thought-provoking! I'm happy for Brett and how it works out for him, but partially I'm also sad how this behavior puts (product) design entirely off the table, looking at it as a service only. As a product designer you want to immerse yourself in the product, and it's hard to do without the collaboration with the other disciplines in discussion. It feels like the functions of the company figure out what they want, and then hand it over as a Trello ticket and that's it. I can imagine this way more complex tasks like product strategy and research can't even be done this way. It feels Brett is making money out of company's inefficiencies, both ways of working and communication-wise and it's great he has seen this opportunity. In some ways it's kinda a shame on the companies.
Such an insightful podcast, much appreciated.
Beautiful vid so much light shed on this
I learnt so much from this. Thank you!!!
I've been adjusting my design side hustle to this model.
Superb conversation and incredible interview from Chris - great summaries and questions 👍
Thank you
Great Interview, i learned some things i will use in my business. Thank you
This was fascinating to watch. Couple of questions though:
1. How do you have time off for holiday?
2. What if all the clients have a busy month and bombard you with tasks?
3. How do you find time for coaching if your schedule is that tight?
He mentioned on twitter he doesn’t take much time off. Feel like it’s burn out waiting to happen. If I were him, I’d just reduce client load and raise prices and have more flexibility
He explained it pretty clearly he can only process one task at a time. there is no bombarding with task as the trello system doesn't allow it :)
@@jakebcampbell he literally said he works 6 hours a day, If that makes you burnt out maybe you should change the business you're in.
But what about taking a one week vacation?
@@erfan0568 I'm sure he has figured that out. It's not like that's not a thing in our business :)
This episode was 🔥
YOU MUST BE GOOD, PERIOD!
Chris Do!.
I'll make a shirt with this.
A lot of insights we can all learn from. Nice!
The fact that as a fellow one person design agency I don’t believe it is possible for one person to manage that many clients… doesn’t matter. Brett is the Tim Ferriss of the creative industry. He makes designers think outside the hourly rate box and build value around their service offering. His course has sensible nuggets of advice. Worth the purchase.
I hear you. But let's say you have 3-5 clients on long term subscriptions that don't abuse the service I think you will be better off then have a normal product design 9-5 job. Plus you will earn a lot more...
@@sw23ae completely agree! I have 3 clients on long term subscriptions and it’s the perfect balance.
really great information!! thank you both!!
Tons of value in this chat, thanks guys!
Love this, super inspiring has me curious if something like this would work for custom development or webflow development charge 5k/mo and offer unlimited development but 1 request at a time. Could be building a custom saas for 3 months but break deliverables down into 48 hour deliverables.
I am working on something very similar. A subscription based platform where I will be converting Figma designs to real web pages (React, angular, html, css, bootstrap). I will be launching it this week. So excited :-)
There is only one condition for this to work at that scale.
As you know there are businesses who need freelancers for very occasional jobs.
They could choose normal freelancers and it would cost them less, sure.
The problem with freelancers is that the good ones are not available before x amount of days and finding one is an hustle every time, if you are a business owner you value time more than money, so you don't mind spending more as long as you have someone at you disposal when there is that OCCASIONAL job.
Why wouldn't they hire someone? I guess it would be for burocratic purposes, responsibility, laws, frequency of use and stuff like that.
What allows Brett to have such a non-needy pool of 20-30 clients is his personal brand and exposure, because it gives him OPTIONS.
UNLIMITED means more "without a queue" than "as many requests as you want".
I like this business model though and even just having 2-3 consistent clients would be marvellous.
If you've ever worked for a freelance agency you know companies essentially pay the same monthly rate for this type of service. Why deal with a middleman when you can deal directly with the source. For a company it's better to take on this type of as-needed service compared to having to hire someone on staff full time which would cost them more in the long term.
With so many client and such a quick turn-around time, where does Brett get his design ideas?
Great interview! Now, his revenue is going to become $2 million.
I cannot understand how this guy avoids ANY CLIENT CALLS. I would never hire someone for that much money without speaking to someone every now and then if needed. But as a designer myself I am skeptical on how some of this plays out and how much work one person can handle. I would love to get rid of client calls altogether such a time suck, but I have never met a client that doesn't want to speak with you.
Amazing, nice web page also.
awesome!!! but how do you take a break/holiday when working with subscription models?
We must admit these days, upon hearing the word 'subscription' Our immediate reaction is to reach for gasoline and a blowtorch, ditto for 'X as a Service'. This however, was thought provoking to say the least, We thank you.
honestly that's amazing and majority of the freelancers stugle with having like 5-6 clients at the same time lol
Great interview and nice job hosting
Thank you
Wow. THAT was something!
This is inspiring.
Golden knowledge
Mira, intentaré aplicar esto a una escala pequeña, aunque Chris dice que cobremos caro desde un principio, pero veré como se puede adaptar a LATAM.
The kicker for me is around 25:00 talking about that ‘needy’ client. The client had every right to use his ‘product’ as much as they could, and weren’t outside the bounds of the agreement.
Not sure what safeguards he has in place now besides ‘more expensive clients just pay me to be available but don’t actually make many requests’. It looks like that can change at the drop of a hat. What if 15 clients submit things at the same time, all expecting that 2 day turnaround? Why is that ‘needy’ client bad when they were using the service they were paying for to its fullest?
What shortcuts is this guy taking? There’s no way he’s building bespoke websites and brand materials that stand out. Are all his clients okay with the usual trendy templatized work? So many questions left unanswered.
Nice interview and Interesting model. My question is still how customers see you different from a freelancer? I mean they know you work alone and not only for them but for other 10-20 clients. So they get like 1/10 of your time and your hour becomes worth 500USD.
This is basically a retainer model. My only concern is the unlimited design. I get that works for some clients that have smaller requests from month to month but if suddenly you get couple of large requests that can become a huge problem accommodation all the clients needs with the amount of work a single designer can do. Not saying it's impossible but I'm bit skeptical.
That's what I was thinking! I offer "subscriptions" only for my existing branding clients and even then I cap it at 8 projects a month because I know if I surpass that I won't be able to deliver high quality work, I would live in fear with his model lol
When you have as much business as he does. You will just get rid of the ”needy" clients as he says. You have the power especially when you don't need the work. You as the designer can fire clients too.
@@sw23ae it’s not about “needy”. You can have great clients that suddenly need a large request to be done. This is my point. Also, just getting rid of them because you are busy, is not a good business practice.
@@gugy68 I hear you. What do you think the solution is then? 🤔
@@sw23ae Usually when this happens is when you start hiring people in order to expand your business. As a single person, I honestly don’t know how you can accrue several clients without the increase of load.
This just helped me make a major decision with my company, thank you!
Thank you.
One design at a time, how does that work with Saas? One screen or flow?
Thank you
Nice video 🔥
"There are some clear difference between you and I"". LMAO
Dang I wish I could find some clients to pay 5k a month to do 1 thing! You definitely earned it but damn!
Marketing yourself as a company instead of a freelancer is a great strategy.
How do you handle non free fonts? Do clients send you a copy?
Good for him and he can do what he wants, but it sounds like he's refined his client list to the ones that don't really use him much (explains the 20 clients a month, because even 1 project from each would be to much, even if you're fast). He said he removed clients that "utilized him a lot" so basically the people that try to get the most for the money they are spending are cut? I mean, I'm a little jealous if I'm being honest; but that would scare me as a new client, that if I use what I'm paying for I might get removed?
can somebody link Brett Williams design portfolio? I cannot find any work this guy has created. I only see interviews.
Click "more" on the title under the video, literally a link to his site...scroll down a lil
Thanks to Brett and Designjoy, designers and webflow professionals like me have increased prices by 100% in last 2 years. Decent senior level design work - We do not compete with Fiverr average third world freelancers. There is a huge market there for $$$$ monthly clients and they cannot find the top designers. Excellent!
I agree with you, though interview was quite interesting
He was hired by a startup that I joined, the product was a SaaS and an app, the kind of projects that need extensive iterations and taking care of each detail, I wasn't satisfied at all with his work, the delivered work was not enough, lacking screens, steps, effects, no micro interactions, no design system...Nothing was ready fo development, plus the turnaround time was super slow for us. We had to hire 2 full time designers to get things done and we had to redo almost everything. I'm not saying he is a bad designer, I liked his sense of aesthetic but his business model didn't work for us!
is there a fair usage policy ? what if a client gives you 500 screens to design ?