Sudoku Solver Seeks Supplementary Support
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- BremSter almost solves "Prime Position" by fjam.
This Sudoku uses a Killer Variant and the Kropki Pairs constraint.
Solve in Sven's SudokuPad WebApp: sudokupad.app/...
I get very stuck on this puzzle and have to refer to the solve guide in the submission, and use the steps in that to figure out what I missed. Thanks to fjam for including that guide.
📋 Puzzle Rules:
• Normal Sudoku rules apply.
• In cages, digits must sum to a prime number.
• Cells separated by a white dot must contain consecutive digits. Cells separated by a black dot must contain digits with a ratio of 1:2. Not all dots are given.
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Argh! You were so close! I should say immediately that the SET pattern isn't necessary to solve the puzzle, but my solve guide is designed to show the path of least resistance and the SET makes it easier in my opinion. Weirdly though, it only really helps when thinking about odd/even digits and recognising faster how the number of odd digits in the cages is forced. It's not the typical x=y kind of SET that most people are used to, so not thinking of the idea is normal. Although I'm pretty sure I never referred to it as a 'standard' SET, it is just a small adjustment to the ring pattern which is possibly the only 'standard' SET, if indeed there is such a thing..... Part of the reason for the setup not using that pattern is so the solver doesn't just dive straight into SET and actually thinks about possible prime sums, exactly as you demonstrated here.
The real key though is odd/even colouring, which you didn't quite persist with enough when you first tried it. With all the even digits already in C12 and C89, you can start to colour a lot more cells that must be odd in R1 and R9, which then finishes up pretty much all of the logic you get from the SET anyway. I think as soon as you moved away from that strategy, a glance at the guide was probably inevitable, but that's life sometimes! I have to say though that I'm really impressed that you gave this one a go; it is very much one of those puzzles where the solving experience seems to vary a lot from solver to solver and your testing feedback reflects that. Keep up the good work!
The layout screams set and I hate coloring
I am glad you appreciated the solve. I was really worried that you would be upset that I did this the way I did. I did want to showcase the puzzle, as this channel is about the puzzles, not about me being able to solve them.
I am sorry I didn't find it, but as you said, it happens.
If one likes to set using SET, it is noticeable. With other things like parity to grab your attention, it is somewhat noticeable. If one also needs to focus on math concepts, it is hard to notice. Great puzzle, though. Well done, BremSter.
You know what really intrigues me about this puzzle is that there is yet another "phistomophel" set.
I solve by printing the grid on paper and didn't even notice it.
An interesting point is that r1c5 could never be a 4. If it was the cropkis in row 1 would have to be 1,2 and 3,6 giving a cage total of 16 which is not prime. Strangely this insight allowed me to solve the puzzle without understanding the set cleverness, but did allow me to eventually understand where the 8s had to be.
Nice one Bremster
Nice puzzle, quite challenging. Solved it in 49:10.
I think the beginning SET is reasonable by now as it is a simple variant of the Phistomefel ring (just swap rows 1 and 3 and rows 7 and 9). Of course this puzzle is almost impossible for someone who doesn't know this. Any time one sees 2x2 regions in four boxes of a Sudoku in the same rows and columns, one can find a variant of the Phistomefel ring. For example, the cells r5689c5689 contain exactly the same digits as r47c12347 and r123c47. To show this, highlight columns 5,6,8,9 in one color (4 sets of 1-9), highlight rows 12347 with another, remove box 1 to also get 4 sets of 1-9, then remove the overlap. You may not even get 2x2 regions, e.g., use one color for columns 1, 3, 4, 6, and another color for rows 1, 2, 3, 5, 8 removing box 3, then remove the overlap to get that cells r4679c1346 contain the exact same digits as the cells in r58c25789 and r123c25.
I knew about Phistomefel's ring, but didn't realize it has the same logic. I managed to see 1 is not in any of the square shaped cages and looked where 1 went elsewhere in the puzzle. Then I noticed if you put it in any of the 5-cell cages it breaks. I was thinking that's quite similar to Phistomefel, but I hadn't realized it's the exact same thing until I read fjam's comment saying set theory is the easier route. And I was able to see it then.
This was rather difficult. I feel like I cheated because, although I had all the possibilities for the cages filled out, it was you mentioning the implications of the set that broke it open for me. Crazy puzzle!
This was one I attempted... twice... before finally just watching BremSter's solve. I definitely did not see that set, so probably would have never made it through without that knowledge, but still an amazing puzzle nonetheless! Thanks to fjam for it, and to BremSter for presenting and persevering through to the end of the solve!
I agree, this is not a standard set.
The only set that's known throughout the community is the Phistomefel ring, I think. Then there is one unbalanced squares from Aad von de Wetering, if I don't mistake that with someone else's finding.
In the Phistomefel ring, you have the 2x2 corners besides the ring, of course. Well, and if you shift the squares around, that splits up the ring, there's the "inverted Phistomefel" - I think that's how it's sometimes called, where the 2x2 squares go framing box 5 and the ring cells go into some of the cells in the grid perimeter.
So if you play a lot with sets and start from the Phistomefel ring, you can get there. But four 2x2 squares also don't trigger my spider senses for set equivalence.
I thought this was a really good puzzle, the trick I used was looking at odd/even and working out that all the digits outside the cages in the top and bottom rows must all be odd. From there, was able to figure out the polarity of the white dots in box 2, which really broke the puzzle open from there.
I'll admit that I saw the set theory idea very quickly. But that's only because I played with tweaks on the Phistomofel ring, which this is. It's one of the "easier" ones to spot, as the 4 cell boxes are there to give you a clue. Still didn't help me solve the puzzle, though.
Whoa! 70min and only finish because of your help about the set! That was hard!
yup, I did not see that set, and I guess I was just lucky that I persisted with the odd/even coloring, and also, I quite shamelessly used the killer calculator for this, and it still melted my brain
For what it is worth, I solved it in a little over an hour[which I'd call a low 4 out of 5 difficulty] without ever doing set theory. The big break was just where does 579 go in column 5. Only one in box 5, so there is one on the white dots in boxes 2 and 8[the top cage can't be 12367 because it has to have a 4]. Bremster seemed to get something similar with the odd/even coloring.
This was definitely way out of my capabilities.
Interesting puzzle though and neat concept.
I'm not the most experienced at SET so I really only know 3 if you count the standard windoku SET.
It looks similar to the expanded Phistomofel ring , but I think think that's those 4 cages plus the 4 corners and 3 cells near the "outside" of boxes 2 , 4 , 6 and 8?
So I don't think I'd call it standard , but maybe "implied" SET due to the cage positions?
Also nice solve by Bremster , despite the difficulties.
Funny how sometimes you just see things. Coloured the 4 box cages and then another colour for the other cages and thought, that's a 'blown' Phistomefel ring and that was me started after 20 seconds. Still took another 42 minutes to complete though!
Lovely puzzle.
75:18
Can't believe I was able to solve something Bremster couldn't solve without help.
I do wonder if this might have benefited from a title that hinted at the set breakin. Something like "Set of primes" which would hint people to look for sets. I'm generally not a fan of set puzzles if the sets aren't obvious - I don't find trying to find sets to be that interesting compared to then using the set afterwards.
I like, Ready, SET, Prime
solved this in 40:30 without using SET, felt like it folded nice enough whenever I found the next step in the process
59:27 for me. That's ROUGH
YOLO