Do You Need an FRFR Speaker like the Fender Tonemaster FR12?
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- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
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00:00 Intro
1:50 Why I'm talking about the FR12
2:30 A kind of crap room
3:40 The Tonemaster FR12 does stand out
4:16 Mono makes sense
4:50 Less Reverb and Delay than at home?
5:00 Try to hear it at volume before the gig
5:20 Why I prefer it to the Powercab
5:35 But perhaps just a normal Speaker with a solid state poweramp?
9:27 Camera audio of HX Stomp
14:55 Camera audio of FM3
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ive been gigging with a Strymon Iridium going into Fender FRFR12. Never looking back again! Using the FRFR12 sounds SO much better than it coming through regular wedge monitors. The wedges always make it tinny and fizzy the louder you turn them up. With the FR, it sounds just like I set the strymon and it doesnt break up or get tinny at loud volumes which is the reason I stopped using my Hotrod Deluxe amp. Plus with the XLR out, venue soundmen have become much friendlier. On stage, I can hear myself clearly and it feels like an amp, all without breaking up. Playing bachata and reggae so I dont want any amp breakup.
I'm a bedroom guitarist only and i play through an EV PXM-12MP powered stage wedge with my FM9 and it's great always having it easily pointed directly at me because it's a wedge
Yep! You have a great monitor that translates well when going FOH with no monitor options.
Have been running the ToneMaster Pro into the FR-10 reasonably quietly on stage, with the XLR out into the desk. A bit of bottom end cut and it has been sounding ace.
I’ve been using the helix/powercab+212 this week in rehearsals for a show tonight and tour from next week and have been pretty pleased with the results. Powercab has been pretty essential for me in The WAEVE set up in rehearsals as you can’t always rely on a rehearsal rooms monitors to be any good and so having the guitar leant back on it’s built in stands and aiming up at me worked really nicely.
I did notice a touch more brittleness on the sound but tweaked cab setting and all was fine!
Even my Soundman who is a valve man really and builds all sorts of valve oriented thing said it sounded really good- so feeling relieved.
I did have a go earlier in my writing room with an HX effects into a master tone deluxe reverb (to practice a few of the trickier bits in some of the songs) and really liked that set up actually!! Cranking the amp to edge of break up and then stepping down the overall volume on the jack of the master tone is a nice way to do it too if you are fond of fender cleans and having all the usual amp knobs and switches within reaching distance. Good good. Cheers John.
Dialing things in at live volume great advice.
Anyone who knows how a live/band volume setting on pedals and amp settings is completely different than practice/bedroom settings, big time!! You'll have to reset your delay/reverb settings with a live volume change, also.
The Boss Katana works well as a FRFR speaker when you bypass it's preamp! It sounds great with my GT1000.
Great idea, thanks. Saved me buying another FRFR.
That’s what I’m finding. I think it’s because the Katana cab is already an FRFR speaker because the Katana amp is already a modeling amp. When I realized that it makes more sense.
What a timely video. I ran my PodGO through my Katana effect return and didn't turn off my cab sims. Sounds great. I've had people telling me that I need 4 cables.
I have a Marshall half stack and assumed I have to do the 4 cable method for it to bypass everything? I had to adjust the chains for the loop
I’m hoping that this will inspire a video on the FR-10 versus the FR-12. Would love to hear your take on that! 😊
Most people who don’t like modelers are listening to them through Nearfield speakers which don’t have a big enough cone to represent a 12 inch speaker that they are used to. I use two line 6 1 x 12 cabinets with an axe effects three. Can play in the room like I always used to with amps, but without destroying my hearing or annoying anyone else. Also can record direct, can easily take to a gig, and if you want that “air the room” feeling just turn them up.
We did a comparison of the Laney LFR112 vs the Tonemaster 12 on SOS forums - very similar results as you would expect, but there is a mild but noticeable mid scoop to the Fender and a slight mid push to the Laney, so the latter might work slightly better in a rock context. The Laney also has an inbuilt speaker sim, and sim DI out - I don’t know if this might save you processing power in the HX Stomp. Weight wise the Fender wins hands down, and having the knobs on top makes it much easier to tweak your sound.
I have compared the Fender FR-12 with my tried and tested Yamaha DXR10 (on a stand). I found that the FR-12 was not boomy when it was elevated on a chair, it only needed a bit of high-cut (at 9 o’clock). When I had the FR-12 on the floor, however, it became boomy and I had to dial back the bass.
After that experiment I‘ve used the FR-12 once for gigging elevated on a chair and it worked like charm!
Did you try using the kickstands to put it at an angle?
@@ekuzy Yes, I did. Good point. That reduced the bass somewhat, but I still had to turn the bass knob down a notch to match the DXR10 (which was not necessary when completely elevated).
I absolutely love my FR12. It feels like a proper amp sound coming from my Axe3
Boss GX 100 and the Fender Tonemaster FRFR 10 has me a happy boy at the moment!
I have my Helix LT hooked up straight to my studio monitors. Sounds great and very useful in my environment. 🙏🏻❤️
So do I but being near field they start to suck when you play with anyone else in the room like a drummer and you will need a speaker to throw the sound farther.
I don’t know why but I’m happy with PA speakers and a floor monitor. But, I still want to try one of these. You made some really good points, should be very helpful to a lot of folks.
Really, really nice intro. The shredding at the end was horrible 😄
Thank you for telling me to leave the cabinet models 'on.' I've been doing that already, and wondering if I'm crazy, because everyone says not to do that for some reason. It just sounds better to me that way, and it's nice to get that advice from an accomplished player such as yourself.
Turn off the cab models only if you're running through an actual cab. The FRFRs are designed to *not* sound like cabs, and are meant for you to have a cab sim in your chain somewhere.
I’m doing the same with leaving the cab sim on. It sounds better when I run it unit the effects return on my Katana. People are telling me it’s wrong and it won’t sound good that way, but it sounds GREAT. The Katana doesn’t affect the sound that I can tell.
They only say it when it's a real cab you want to use.It is down to your own ears whether you put cab sims on or off in the end.
I think that since the Katana is pretty much a modeling amp, the speaker is already an FRFR. I’m not sure that this would work as well going into the effects return of, say, a tube amp.
I have had good results going into the catalyst. It has a switch on the return for power amp in which disables the catalyst internal IR so you don't get 2 IRs, just the one from your modeler. I have used this on gigs with both the Helix LT and the PodGO. Both worked well for me. The catalyst was much cheaper than a powercab.
This is a timely one for me.
I’ve been plugging both my FM9 and HX Stomp into an FRFR and a Quilter Micro Pro Mach 2 (which uses an 8” PA speaker).
Yesterday I used an A/B box to compare the Quilter with my modded Blues Jr.
The BJr was fully modded years ago by billM, including converting it to 30w and using 6L6 power tubes. I love this amp.
I’ve always liked the FM9 through the Quilter, but the Blues Jr sounded great. I’m sure the 12” vs 8” speaker was important, but it really did have a better feel to it. Cliche but yes: like the tube amp that it is.
I tried it with different combinations of the cabs and amp preamp sections disabled…but in the end I just loved all the presets played as originally programmed.
I’ll be plugging into the Blues Jr a lot more, now.
I just got the Fender Fr-10. Haven’t fogged with it yet but it sounds great at band practice. Had been playing through a regular amp live. And through JBL monitors at home. The FR-10 really makes the HX stomp shine.
I purchased the fr10 and honsetly it sounded kinda bad at the begining on bedroom level, but I added some mid and treble, and there you go, it sounded awesome. Same with the gig situation. Front house was crying I had way too much bass, so I turned that slightly off, added some mid and treble and everyone was happy. Never ever experienced such thing, they even asked me to make it louder. Good times.
Totally agree on the summing to mono comments- what sounds good on studio monitors doesn't always translate to a mono cab. Have heard that SD powerstage colors tone and that Fryette power station is the only way to get true transparent power amp utility. I went through a bunch of FRFRs, had the same problem with muffled or boomy tones with the likes of Headrush 108s, but eventually found that the QSC K10.2, as well as the Atomic FRFR, when combined with, as needed low pass/high pass filters, really does the job and, imo, sounds better than many real amps I've played before. Also, as for "feel", I've found that you just have to set up presets in a way that incorporates the "feel" you're looking for. In the Helix, this can be done with the variable impedience input control. Also, in Tonex, you can just audition models until you get one(s) that have the "feel" you're looking for. I've found a particular Soldano and another Dumble (different than JB one) that "feel" as good as any real amp I've played through.
I don't have the luxury of having a live cab on stage. I have my Fractal FM9 and in-ears. So, what FRFR monitor is best for creating presets at home and then translating well to FOH? I have found the Atomic CLR and EV PXM-12MP seems to be the gold standard. I feel very confident creating presets into those, bring my FM9 to the gig and it sounds great! The bummer is...the CLR and PXMs are pricey! Thanks for the great vids!
Same situation for me. I have a Boss Nextone Stage and I go in return instead of the input, and it also has an out to PA if I want to run it that way. That bypasses the preamps and just turns it into a dumb speaker with one control - master volume. With that setup it sounds very similar to when I send the signal to a PA. And it’s lightweight, no noise, solid state so reliable, and sounds similar across different volume levels. I have left the speakers and cab sims on for different sounds and it sounds great. I’m using the Boss GX-100 with it and just leave it on the line out setting so I can easily go between PA and amp without changing settings - I’m always bound to forget that so I don’t want to mess with it.
As of now I keep my Boss Stage at home for practice, then rehearse in our practice space into a Roland keyboard amp (which also does great for bass when I need to play those parts). Then for a small gig I can use my Nextone Stage or a PA, and I run as monitor for a larger stage. Also since it is an amp, I could use it in a pinch if my GX-100 were to go down.
ISP Technologies "Stealth Power Amp" is a great option imho, there is a mono and a stereo one. The stereo one really helps to get rid of potential ground loops and has made my life easier. I have used it with a real tube preamp pedal from AMT from years.
I tested the FR12/FR10 & Headrush 108 and found the 12 to be quite unnatural sounding (using my studio monitors as the control), the 10 was the most accurate I found - and it’s cheaper & lighter. Really enjoyed the form factor of the fenders
Nice to see someone else pointing out Headrush. I run a complete Headrush set up and love it.
Thanks for the insight! Would love to see a comparison between the Fender FR12 and the Barefaced Reformer 112 Activier.
John love the videos, keen helix floor player here, what IEM setup do you use? You often mention having to use IEM’s, do you use back line as well to fill the sound?
I use a pair of CCA C10s with Xvive U4 … miss out on stereo but for pubs and wedding it’s great. I sing too so has to be a sacrifice somewhere
Especially with the helix I like using just the pre-amps with a power amp or maybe fx loop. Not all power amps are the same but, with a good one, I really love the digital preamps with analog power amp+guitar speaker
GX-100 with Powerstage Stereo, two 2x12 cabinets (Eminence Josh Smith signature 50W, 8ohm and WGS 75w 8ohm) so far has been the most "tube amp" like experience. The Powerstage is remarkably responsive for solid state, especially with the EQ engaged, and careful tweaking of the modelers in the gx-100 has been incredibly beneficial.
That's the way I am thinking of going.
I had a Tech 21 Power Engine 60 used it with the Helix LT , loved it , had to sell it to buy some new gear , sorry I did.
The in the room tone sounds so much better than what I assume is the DAW tone.
Ive had numerous frfr speakers and played through a few amps into the return. I have always been disappointed…. Until I bought the tonemaster frfr. I think it’s a level above all others.
I have the headrush 8…I run a helix stomp or a spark or a Yamaha thr thru it and it sounds great…I can run it at bedroom levels or rock the neighborhood 🤘
I have been using a 1x12 powercab plus for gigs for the last four years and it's been great, no problems at all. Obviously when something new comes out I want it even if I don't need it! I like the Green/amber/red signal peaking light with the powercab to help set input levels. Do you just trust your ears with the FR12?
I skipped truefire
😂I fast forward everytime
What are those things stuck on the wall?
Absolute madlad 😂
I've used his code a few times
Like clockwork
John your right about FRFR speakers they do not always sound right or that good a lot of the time,this is what i would like to see companys do with there Amp Modeling Processors,a built in Calibrated System where you plug in a special Mic that can analyze the Frequency Response of your Amps Speakers so they sound best with your IR's!No need for FRFR speakers anymore!You would also be able to save your amps speaker analyzed frequency response as a user preset setting!Let me know what you think?
Use a high quality powered PA cab with a 10 inch speaker. Sounds great and will be great if you play acoustic instruments through as well.
John, could you (pretty please) take a photo of the back of the speaker or driver or whatever it's called? Fender just candidly say it's a bespoke driver and I'm convinced that that thing is what makes the whole unit sound good.
I can't afford the whole unit, but I'm hoping that eventually I might find the driver sold separately on the used market
I have an Atomic 112 . Its a tube full range solution. Great. And also use a Kemper. Nice and light. And a a Headrush. Small and loud. It is a big difference if you put the cab on the floor or lift it of the ground
Thanks for this video. It is dealing with a central topic amongst guitar players: how can I sound with a modeler like having a real amp on stage..
Being generally dissatisfied with FRFR, I started running my Helix through the return of a Mark VII and a Badlander. It sounds fantastic in both amps, but I was very surprised how much the power amp modeling contributes to the differences in tone between models; particularly for high gain amps where you wouldn't necessarily expect that to be the case - at least not to a large degree.
While it sounded great just using the pre-amp models (or turning power amp modeling off in the case of the Fractal stuff), the differences between a Dual Rectifier, ReV Purple and Diezel VH4 were extremely subtle - when using the same physcial tube power amp.
So, it works quite well, but you do not get the tonal shifts you might typically expect in modeling.
I have an inexpensive Alto 8 inch FRFR for my Helix LT. To be honest it’s OK not great. However I also have a Catalyst 60 and for fun I’ve jacked the output into the power amp in jack and it works much better imo.
Maybe you could try DV Mark Eric Gales. Powerful, light, relatively cheap and with a great clean. Corey Wong uses it as well.
I'm very happy with my Harley Benton G112A-FR. I am curious obout how it compares to the Fender FRFR.
Has anyone else noticed the dreaded Celestion G12M-70 sounding pretty good with modeling? I read a while back that they were originally made to stay out of the way of the tone of a specific amp. Then they started being put in other amps and people hated them. Probably too flat for those other amps. But it seems to work well to my ears with modelers with the cab sims on.
Adding an expression pedal for delays works great live.
I’m pretty new to the helix and not really great at dialing in amps. When I got the helix, I already had a Seymour Duncan Powerstage and 2x12 cab. So that’s what I used. The factory helix presets all sounded terrible. I had to turn off the cab sim on every one of them just to get started. Then I bought a headrush 108 FRFR and all the factory presets sounded much better.
I was having problems with the helix presets I put together at home would not translate very well to PA systems ( with flat EQ). I'm using a Friedman 10 inch FRFR and now I have no probems with translation to PAs. I don't need the sound on stage because we use IEMs.
Hi! Has anyone tried a Celestion F12-X200 and compared it with a Tonemaster FR-12? I’m powering it with an inexpensive Harley Benton GPA and sounds quite good
What would be a good frfr solution for both an electric guitar AND a bass guitar?
I know you’re a humble man, but you are one of the best players in the world right now.
Any advice on how to get a warm clean from a digital device please?
I have a Marshall Code 100 Combo and also a Mooer GE300 and can't get a warm clean from either. They're excellent for distortion tones, but not warm cleans.
I'd be interested in seeing anyone changing the speaker in the FR-12 to a normal speaker. I curious if it was still possible to use the power amp in there. That way you would not need the Powerstage or any other external power amp + cab... just a thought.
02:25 Ive never heard that said about modellers, rooms and consistency. Why so? Unless the modeller/frfr speaker comes with a mic and pink noise generator to eq itself to the room like a surround sound home theater amp
Just curious, do you mic the fr12 and use it for stage volume or is that your overall volume when you play?
He uses direct to PA system for overall volume. It would be difficult to mic an frfr since it has the regular speaker and a tweeter
I use a JBL MSC1 for my Studio Master Volume Knob and 3-way stereo selector. It was designed with ROOM CORRECTION but this needed Adobe FLASH PLAYER 9 and ACROBAT READER to install its Software. So since these were dropped from OS useage in 2020 it can no longer do this. Yet it is what Pro PA Companies would use using a similar SINE WAVE SWEEP with a Test Mic and reveal the EQ tuning needed in each Venue. I am very surprised this rech was dropped!
It is vital for what you need in these FRFR SPeakers. AMP MODELERS have bad rep at any good volume and it is well-known you should always be lowering MID when getting louder BUT you must EQ to the Venue. The industry has let us down!!
Just wondering ... are you sending your Helix to FOH and using the FR12 strictly as a monitor or are you using the FR12 to fill the room. If you are using it as a monitor only and pointed directly at you from the front, then the room should have minimal effect I would think?
Would this work with UAFX Lion for example? Can I take a pedalboard and this active speaker to a gig and be ok with enough volume, tone..?
You need a good one, like the Laney LFR-212.
I'm trying to find a speaker that sounds as great as my Yamaha HS 8, for my Helix.
That would be my ideal.
The Powerstage sounds great through my old Marshall cab too.
I've pretty much given up on my FR-12 and I run my Helix through the FX Return on my Orange and into an Orange 2x12 cab for gigs.
Which orange amp? I bought the super crush buy just going to use the helix into the power amp only I think
@@philthompson9403 Crush Pro 120
Thats why everyone says the fr10! Thats what i got 👏🏼
As a bass player, does the FR-12 have the volume for live bass situations
Quad Cotex with amp sim on into a Fryette Power 50 into a pine cab with a Ev L 12 Great
How do feel about Red Sound MF10 / experience ?
Would the fender FRFR 12 be loud enough use as my main sound source at small gigs
With my modeler vocals ?
Has anyone done this ?
Room acoustics is the number one challenge of gigging with a modelor. You can get your tone perfect in your home studio thru your interface and monitors only to find when you get to the gig it sounds like crap if you're playing direct to FOH. If you don't have a quiet stage requirement an FRFR might be a solution.
How does this compare to the Kemper FRFR? Anyone have experience with both?
What about using that FRFR 12 with TONEX one or TONEX pedal?
Yeah, would like to see some tones with this configuration. Super light, easy and cheap.
Any opinion on frfr-10 vs 12?
I always wonder.... are folks EQ'ing (Low & High cuts) their presets to mimic a 'proper' amp cab response....as Cooper Carter and others recommend? Are people EQ'ing their reverb blocks freq response (Low & High cuts) as pro mixers would do??? Low frequencies on reverbs create a LOT of 'mud'. In my experience, these practices have significantly improved the sound (amp in room) and room to room consistency of my FR12 / FM9.
Did you mean a transistor amp ? Which would be analogue.
These cabs need a good multi band eq.
The easiest way to have the feeling of an amp onstage, but still want to keep levels down, so that a good split can send the feed to the front of house, can be hard. The best way to keep levels onstage from your favourite small amp low for the soundperson's ease, but still be able to hear your cab over the drums or keyboards, is to positionthe small amp or cab at the front of the stage pointing back in to the guitarist. If it can't be there, for some reason you can place them near the front on each sideand facing in at about 45 degree's angle across the stage to the guitarist on the other side of the stage. Either way you're going to be at least somewhat facing the amp, so it doesn't need to be as loud. After all, it isn't any more that amps are expected to project into a large crowd, and if it's just a monitor for the guitarist's inspiration ir comfort zone, you can always still send another line of that same sound, or even mic it up, for the front of house mix. Even if you're forced to use it as side fill, it still keeps thebstage level low and is easy for the musician to hear. This might sound odd, but rumour is that the Doobie Brothers used this method with small Fender combos facing in like monitor wedges, or at least they found that it worked well on one of their late eighties tour of Australia and New Zealand. When you're facing an amp, there's no need to turn it way up, and even in small venues if there is more lateral space, or more space in front.
Honestly, sound engineers who can't handle guitar amps being as loud as a drum kit, don't know what they are hearing. In my experience those engineers never have the FOH mix right.
@@tonedowne Yes, I would have to agree with you there, but sometimes you just get stuck with exactly that less desirable person and have to get through the gig despite it, while still remaining on apparently civil terms with the cloth-eared hapless moron who is either part of the venue, and you're stuck with them, or maybe you're required at private functions to supply your own sound reinforcement, and find that tricky to sound check while onstage,.... either way what I was suggesting was only a not impossible alternative to the usual arrangements, and could work well as a plan B sometimes.
@@chrisgmurray3622 yeah I don’t generally make a fuss. Not the first time anyway.
It’s just a pet peeve of mine that a well balanced band is considered too loud because the sound engineer doesn’t get the concept of sound reinforcement and think they are mixing in the studio.
It’s obviously subjective and dependant on your requirements but I found frfr only useful for gigs ,if playing at home a good pair of studio monitors is better (and more convenient for stereo effects )
I also found a good actual cab with power amp gives a better tone than any frfr I tried ( line 6, headrush,laney frfr’s)
But you need to remove your cab emulation/ir’s from your patch .
I have never seen the point of taking an FRFR to a gig. There is no better guitar monitor than a guitar speaker.
I went through stage of running a combo amp from a send on the modeller (pre the amp sim) and then giving the FOH the stereo out.
Now I don't use the amp sim and just use amps.
But I don't play functions anymore.
I recently switched to fr10
It really turned down the boominess that are in the fr12
I use my helix through a Harley Benton frfr....cheaper than the others and just as good...imo🤘
I would rather have a simple 1x12 cab with a real guitar speaker like a creamback and just disable irs. I would use one of those portable class d power amps to power it. A company here in brazil makes cabs with those little 100w poweramps inside it. Final thing weighs less than a blues jr or boss katana. Then one of the outs from main pedalboard would have a mini ir to the desk. The helix or hx can split the signal and send only one out with ir on, so you wouldnt need an ir pedal and splitter signal to do this.
I find that live if you use many different patches with dif irs it can fuck up the bands sound and confuse the house mixer. Too many different tones. Better to use at least the same ir in gigs, just changing amp sims eq and effects
I’ve tried the Celestion 12” frfr. Anyone else?
To boomy? Then turn the bass down or get the fr 10 it sounds way better unless your in drop g or lower and they have the same amp and the same db The fr12 only gives you more low end that’s it. But everyone is low cutting 75 to 100 hz and down to 10 k These fender tone master fr10 and fr12 are by far the best bang for the buck in the frfr world the thing this is as good as is the Gemini one but that Gemini one starts at 1500 and the 2 12 cost 2700 dollars which is insane. Get the fender fr10 or fr12. The hiss thing was fixed
Just use the tone controls to dial in your sound. Use any speaker you like. The listeners don't care or notice what gear you use.
18:24: JCB Assman???? What? Lol
Don't be bashfull, girl back it up
Redsound are the best frfr on the planet
Blackstar IDCORE 100. True stereo solid state amp with real speakers without the weight of a JC140. I'll change the 10'' speakers someday for something nicer.
idcore has an emulated output with the blackstar IR thing. Why pretend guitar has to sound like a record if drums don't. FRFR look worse in my opinion.
No, but I just enjoy saying ' frfr'. "frfr" 😃 "Not the frfr furphy again"!
Duncan power head and real cab nothing comes close
Take or leave this advice:
you need to pare down your videos to maybe 2 high quality uploads a week: a lesson and a gear video. Plan out the talking points. You’ll often start off strong, but then the conversation ends up meandering and not really saying anything/answering the questions you posit in the video titles.
Make them shorter-10 min.
In the past year or two, you’ve uploaded so much that you start repeating and maybe don’t realize it. Myself, and several others I’ve seen post elsewhere, used to watch everything you put out, but that has changed. I’ll watch the playing portion and then switch it off or if I do continue listening because I’m doing something else, I tune it out because it loses me.
Something to ponder on the channel’s future. I think it would be better for you and everyone long term.
💯 %
I’ve got a Roland jc40 that I tried the amp models from a boss gx100 and two notes opus. I prefer going into the front end on both occasions and leaving the cab sims on for the gx100 but off for the opus. I love having the eq, reverb and chorus/vibrato with it too. Haven’t gigged it though
Weird that seventy years ago musicians could make all the great music we love with barely 4 tracks and a low watt combo amp , yet all this technology today and everything I hear is so forgettable.
Buy a real amp
I used a power cab for years, got a bit lazy so I bought an Alto TX310. Not only is it much lighter I think it sounds a lot better, the band commented on it as well.
So the power cab is going.