The death of feminism and the future of activism.
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2024
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Bonjour !
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SOURCES/RESSOURCES 📚
Michelle Goldberg, The Future Isn't Female Anymore, New York Times, June 2022: www.nytimes.com/2022/06/17/op...
Susan Faludi, Backlash, 1992.
Susan Faludi's interview in 1992 (highly recommend watching the whole thing): www.c-span.org/video/?33591-1...
Susan Faludi, Feminism Made a Faustian Bargain With Celebrity Culture. Now It’s Paying the Price, June 2022 : www.nytimes.com/2022/06/20/op...
The Drift Magazine, “Steered by the Reactionary” | What To Do About Feminism, January 2022: www.thedriftmag.com/what-to-d...
Tee Noir's video: • Masculinity, Submissio...
Breeny Lee's video: ua-cam.com/users/results?searc...
Other secondary sources are cited throughout the video :)
Radical feminist books:
Pauline Harmange, I Hate Men, Essay, 2020.
Angela Davis, Women Race and Class, 1981.
Emma Goldman, Living My Life, 1931.
Cinzia Arruzza, Tithi Bhattacharya, and Nancy Fraser, Feminism for the 99%, 2019.
Burn It Down! Feminist Manifestos for the Revolution, 2020.
Feel free to share other books in the comments and I'll add them to the list.
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TIME STAMPS:
00:00 : Intro
02:15 : Sponsored segment
03:23 : Part1_Cringe
08:57 : Part2_Judgement
20:15 : Part3_Solution
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Your criticism of the whole "don't judge any woman or you're not a real feminist" part of third wave feminism really resonated with me! I called out a woman for preaching some frightening right-wing stuff about women on Instagram (it was pro-life or something to do with purity culture but I can't quite remember) and someone replied that it was "not very feminist of me" to criticise her because she's a woman with an opinion. Yes, an opinion which actively harms women!
That’s like getting mad at me and saying im not pro-black because I disagree with someone who wants to be called the n-word. Conservatives will use anything to twist to their world view. They don’t make rational arguments. They just are strategic in how they use your rational arguments
Yeah, that’s a really weird pattern that I have recognized as well. When did people start thinking that feminists were supposed to agree with every single woman, no matter what? 😂 A single question or critique isn’t “tearing women down”. This mentality is very toxic.
I completely agree with the previous comment before mine. How is it “anti-feminist” to disagree with with women who have different opinions with mine? Purity culture doesn’t inherently harm women. I’m speaking in terms outside of rape. (consensual sex is just sex) I’ve heard som may leftist women say “no abortion = no sex” but bash other women who talk about purity culture. They literally agree on the same topic at that point. It’s toxic to women to not agree with them at this point. We can still stand together and disagree.
there is a difference between critiquing some womens' actions/views, and actively wishes their rights were taken away. When we say "if youre a feminist, youre a feminist for ALL women" we are saying it to get through to the "feminists" who excluse trans and gay women, women of colour, disabled women, so on and so forth. We are NOT saying it to make every woman exempt from criticism.
I get this all the time. Or the reply "says someone with their pronouns in their bio" and then I ask them "are you a he?" (as most seem to be cis males).
It's very strange that people will talk about "babying" their boyfriends and "acting like a mother" yet refer to those same boyfriends as "alphas" or "dominant".
It's such a weird dynamic especially considering that they're, by their own admission, creating a parental dynamic with their s3xual partner.
@@lasirixo girl did you not watch the video at all???
I don't think I've ever heard a girl seriously call a man alpha
That coupled with the obsession we have in these recent years with "daddy/dom" dynamics... yeah. It's fucking creepy.
"alpha"... more like a toddler...
There is no, "parental dynamic;"
The best mothers are the ULTIMATE examples of Nurturing;
The best fathers are the ULTIMATE example of Protection;
They look at their alpha boyfriends/husbands as a strong replacement for their Protective Fathers;
So, they act accordingly and label accordingly;
Don't fetishize people's ability to accurate observe good qualities in people;
"Stay at home moms" used to be more active in their communities, building charities and influencing local politics.
@@OllieNLL 'they' who??
stay at home moms...ohh woww what a kind of role models they are
Yup, they were even quite decisive in alcohol prohibition laws 😅
Yes, there is lots of revisionism of the truth of how history actually played out in terms of the relationship between men and women. Women actually had a high degree of social power and control, and men mostly ran a smaller Federal system of government.
it is genuinely so validating and comforting to see nuanced criticism of feminism online that isn’t just right-wing misogyny for once. this is such a necessary conversation that people of every gender need to be aware of
Right! A lot of feminism could use critique, but sometimes it boils down to “haha crazy blue hair feminist being crazy 😜“
Do you mean the 2 genders?
I once was in a situation when I tried to talk to a friend who became a feminist, and she didn't listen at all to me.
At a later point my sister joined the conversation and said the same thing I did, and my friend reacted differently.
I will never forget this. My critique was clearly ignored based on my gender.
Maybe it's because the right wing are the only ones with the courage to challenge feminism in the current climate
YES I love this video
Something I still see as a big problem is the way women are portrayed to be these perfect characters with no flaws instead of being presented as just human beings. Disney has been very guilty recently of making these females lead characters who lack any character progression in favor of making them appear 'strong' and 'empowering young girls', but it doesn't seem very relatable when someone has zero flaws and can do everything without adversity.
@A T That's an interesting point. The romanization of those kinds of relationship dynamics often portrayed in Disney films can definitely be harmful and don't expose the reality of what can happen when there isn't a 'happily ever after' type scenario. It portrays the relationship in a rather black and white way which negates the notion that both people are independent, and therefore have their own personal struggles that can lead relationships to being a cooperative effort to better each other and oneself rather than a simple happy ending where everything is perfect all the time.
@@chandler_martian but women they themselves think they are perfect and no one deserves them these days .Even in movies women can do wrong if she does wrong it's internalised misogyny and patriarchy.
Where do women live since they apparently don't live in Mom's proverbial Basement? I guess we'll never know.
I don't think that Mary Sue's can be fully blamed on Feminism, it's a combination of both Traditional Conservatism which sees women as perfect creatures, an underrepresentation of women in those shows, and to some extend Feminist activism. I am a Men's (Human) Rights Activist and in the Manosphere circles misandry in the media is commonly discussed but usually the reasons for the Mary Sue are usually placed on the idea that the Mary Sue in question is supposed to "represent all women" due to a lack of women in those shows.
A good example would be comparing Charlie's Angels over the decades, only the latest version was completely made up of Mary Sue's, the characters are all dehumanised while even the Charlie's Angels from only a decade earlier didn't do it.
@@Doc-hp5wf if you put flaws in the character it help women fight to overcome. They can relate more to these character and notice their own flaws. That’s what the original post is saying.
Say for example ant man he was a complete loser that insure men who are living that life they’re losers as well so they need to yo their life
Once capitalism attaches itself to any social movement , everything goes downhill
I wouldn't bet on it. No move to Venezuela with speed before you get my 3 bead.
it wasnt real socialism. how many billiom people have to die until you get it through your thick heads that socialism doesnt especially on a large scale that requires literally god to achieve such a task successfully?
Yeah, I see this as the factor that has made some feminist offshoots cringe, not feminism itself
as intended
So true!
The choice feminism part is very true regarding prostitution as well. There's so much wrong regarding the sex/p0rn industry and sometimes I wanna cry when I remember how much men consume it.
Yep I’m willing to bet that the same men consuming that content don’t support decriminalisation of sex work. They’re fine with watching free p0rn, not caring if the women in those videos are being trafficked/exploited/coerced. They scoff at the women on of working their literal a$$es off and getting good wages full-filling their fantasies. We have to comply with their bs standards of how we present ourselves, but as soon as we use our beauty to profit from their desires, to become successful in our own right, they hate it. Make it make sense ?!
It might be worth considering why there has been such an explosion of consumption by men. I know the main reasons, but I do wonder of anyone else has even considered them?
What do you think about ethical p0rn?
@@solar0wind I lean towards the opinion that such a statement is an oxymoron. That p0rn can never be ethical because that's the whole point of it, but I am also torn about what to think about all these heavy subjects.
@@nodmyhead6198 Hmm, the point of ethical p0rn is that everyone has good work conditions and has the ability to say no at any time, amongst other things. I personally don't think that that is a bad thing, and I do think that some people really go into the industry because they want to, but regular studios have horrendous work conditions. Also, ethical p. seems to be consumed by women more and more often features marginalised groups in a more respectful way.
Is your issue with p0rn that it's objectifying or something like that? Or why don't you think it can be ethical? (Genuine question)
We need to be aware that real "choice" exists very rarely. Whenever I see a young woman doing the stereotypical roles, I think to myself- "Oh well, if that's what she wanted." But, there is a huge part of me that knows that she did NOT want that. Illusion of choice is very much there. Also, subscribed. This is the type of content I come to youtube for.
@@merulaamethyst2248 I agree with you, but it is only the rarest of women I have seen who are truly happy fulfilling such roles; mostly because their roles aren't valued and respected, as you mentioned. So it is all interconnected, at the end of the day.
@@merulaamethyst2248 As another commented in reply to you, while there certainly are women who say they find the most fulfilment and happiness from being focused on being mothers and housewives - roles society has traditionally seen as suited to women - this typically is due to those women feeling they are valued, appreciated, and respected in such roles whether by their spouses and/or children and other family members. The second wave of feminism with books like Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique saw a very large number of women expressing that they felt not only devalued as women and as individuals in society and in their interpersonal relationships but reporting that they didn't find fulfilment nor happiness either as wives, mothers, and housewives. This was largely found to be due to so many feeling pressured to conform to as well as feeling they were confined to traditional roles.
When second wave feminism gained traction and women began to meet in groups and share experiences and views they began to express that they had higher levels of satisfaction with their lives and higher rates of self-esteem which was intrinsically connected to having more choices and feeling valued, appreciated, and respected in these choices. Studies consistently indicated that increased happiness and satisfaction related to women not only having more choices but to having these choices being accorded value by and acceptance in society. As such, women reported that they felt greater satisfaction with now being provided the option and legal right to exercise more choices than they previously had; these including the right to work outside the home and receive a decent wage, to equitable division of assets on divorce, having the option of being a single parent without this being subjected to the extreme stigmatisation it had hitherto received, and being given greater bodily autonomy, particularly over reproductive health so they had more choices regarding whether to become pregnant and give birth to children.
As Naomi Wolf wrote in her book Misconceptions: Truth, Lies and the Unexpected on the Journey to Motherhood, women who find the most happiness in traditional roles feel most satisfaction when they feel empowered and supported by others in such roles, by her spouse or partner and by society. When a woman is given support by her partner in pregnancy and as a mother whether this be physical, financial, or psychological support they report greater levels of happiness.
Wolf pointed out that the key is power or empowerment and whether or not a woman feels supported practically and emotionally in whatever choices she makes and whichever roles she takes. Unfortunately, our society both puts motherhood on a pedestal while simultaneously devaluing it and this is an area badly in need of change. In order to help improve the way society regards the role of women as mothers, practical changes need to be made. Such changes ideally would involve more practical support for mothers beginning with the birthing industry being radically overhauled, on-site daycare and workplace creches so mothers can see their children whilst at work, and on-site nurseries so mothers can nurse their babies in the private sector for as long as they reasonably choose. There needs to be government benefits that both new fathers and mothers receive only when they take time off - and tax incentives for businesses to encourage all parents to do so. There are so many changes that are needed so that women not only feel supported and valued as mothers but *are* provided this support yet the real transformation isn't a matter of overhauling medical practices or flexitime, or shifting out ideas regarding home, neighbourhood, and workplace - the real transformation that's necessary is one involving the heart, where society doesn't just claim mothers are important but when society finally begins treating motherhood as if it were important - because it is.
What do think when you see a white man working on the roads in the rain?
Seems kind of arrogant and prescriptive.
Is this "choice" come free or is it with a price?
Women who has the opportunity, money will be able to have that choice.
But what about women who doesn't.
The choice feminism part hit close to home, I'm from the middle east (excuse my bad English) and I've been suffering with this concept for as long as i can remember.
here in my country it's common that a woman or a girl might get physically abused, locked at home, deprived of education, or even get killed in some extreme cases by any male relative for taking her hijab off, it's a big issue here,
meanwhile we watch privileged western Muslim women claiming hijab as an identity and basically fetishizing our tool of oppression, and this movement of glamorizing hijab in the west has directly affected us here in a negative way, and this is just one of many issues that follows the same pattern.
as a gen z I was raised surrounded by choice feminism and this now put me in a state of confusion and loneliness as i can't criticize western women for how they dress or empower themselves but in the same time things are getting worst here and we feel abandoned and silenced, we can't talk about systematic oppression in a clear language anymore because look a white girl in USA chose to (insert any violent practice against women) by her own free will.
and now with decline of feminism in western countries, the wave of Muslim immigrants to Europe, Roe v. Wade ...etc I feel like there is no place to escape anymore.
You can add to the the up coming trend of fetishizing traditional gender roles
I think a way to think about it is this, we should not place restrictions on what choices women make (e.g. women shouldn't be forced to wear OR not wear the hijab anywhere). However, we should also avoid glamorizing decisions that are in line with religious, patriarchal etc. authority as liberatory or "feminist". The word "feminist" and even "radical" is used ridiculously much nowadays and I think it partly stems from privileged people who are at least somewhat progressive in their politics who want to feel they are doing sth to advance their politics (even if they really aren't). We also have to move beyond the liberal idea of "free will"/liberty. Freedom to choose between shitty choices is not real freedom, freedom to make a choice that reduces freedom for others is not in line with any liberation movement.
Like when women call wearing makeup 'feminist'. Makeup can somewhat be feminist as it's s a form of self-care and/or creative expression for women, and helping women lead better lives... is a feminist project. However, makeup cannot be divorced from the fact that beauty is a tool of the patriachy and not to mention the exploitation of women (and girls) who work in the extraction of materials used in the beauty industry. So in the grand scheme of things, no makeup (as with any other consumer luxury product) is not feminist. And it is okay to do things that are not feminist at times! And in fact, the way to make an action less unfeminist is to destroy the exploitative systems its implicated in, such as the cultural norms that women have to meet a certain beauty standard or wear makeup to look professional, the use of child labour, exploitative industries in the third world, etc.
Choice feminism says feminism is the freedom for women to choose, BUT it ignores that women might be coerced into choices by social norms, ideologies that are unfeminist and promote inequality btwn the sexes. However, the various "liberation"-nationalisms (e.g. France saying it's good and French to force women to not wear the hijab because they are "liberating them") is bullshit. It ignores the fact that communities are able to reform themselves. And usually it stems from trying to "pinkwash" their nationalism by making it seem aligned to progressive movements (so you'll ignore stuff like cultural genocide and imperialism).
Can wearing the hijab be feminist? Only when a woman truly freely makes that choice, meaning free from both external also internalised oppression (unless you believe religion is inherently patriachal). And even then I would hesitate to use the word feminist to describe individual actions that benefit oneself, rather than collective action. Maybe we should use the word "self-affirming" instead.
@@Naomi-fb1ej "Freedom to choose between shitty choices in not freedom" Excellent
We need a movement that centers third-world women and girls. I personally find that among western feminists, the only serious allies happen to be ideologically radical feminist aligned or marxist, socialist feminist, etc.. But both obviously go about their solutions in different ways, i think you should familiarize yourself with both theories, if you haven't already. There is already a community online of politically informed feminists, many happen to be arab women too. I understand the feeling of hopelessness as someone who's also an arab woman living in the GCC, but trust me when i say that there's a growing feminist class consciousness in the middle east.
@@noorlita I'm familiar with many radical feminism theories and you are right they tend to be more relatable to me, however, maybe it's me being pessimistic but the attack they receive for being "radical" scared me and made me feel more hopeless.
I saw liberal feminists and of course men calling them Nazis for simply centering women in their activism and talking about the issues we face in structured manner, like for example how porn or sex work is bad for women and sharia law is misogynistic and oppressive (DUH!), it made me feel like we lost the compass.
but again maybe it's me not seeing the full picture.
"choice feminism" got all the problems liberalism does, focusing on the individual freedom that in the long run, permeate the opression of the working and marginalized classes
preach!!!!
An infinitely preferable solution compared to the oppression of the Marxists who often run over the working and marginalized with tanks when they protest their governments. The "oppression" Marxists cry about are often far more abhorrent in their governments to begin with, so its a moot point.
You missed the point entirely. It is the marxist aspect of everyone being uniform that's the issue. Everything a woman does is as good as what any other woman does. There's no bad, so there's no good. There's no accountability, nor incentive to do good things which are often hard.
@@1495978707 terrible opinión for yo reasons, the first is the fact that all systems require certain amount of discipline. Where I live having a uniform is normal, nobody cares since we can wear whatever we want most of the time. It is "Marxist" feminim the One that actually sees the world as it is. Not everything requires a profit insentive, I think that You have been brainwashed into that idea
Step on me, state
Thank you. I’m 42. I didn’t realize or understand so many of the changes in what feminism is today. This is interesting and honestly pretty scary, but ultimately helpful in understanding other pov’s in discussions. Hopefully we’re going to be able to have a lot of those.
I'm a mum who works part time. I think parenting is a tough one and I do feel some sympathy with the choice to be a stay at home mum. In my house me and husband both work 3 days a week so we can cover childcare between us, and both have pretty stagnant careers as a result. I'm sure Sheryl Sandberg would not be happy with me for effectively giving up my career! But in my experience parenting is a full time job for someone, and I didn't have a kid in order to spend hardly any time with them, so I don't think outsourcing childcare is a good solution for everyone. Getting dads to do more of their fair share of childcare probably helps, as if more people are working part time that would probably level the playing field a bit. Also I think society needs to appreciate the unpaid caring work of raising children more. At the moment it's like 'your choice, your loss' but we would be in big trouble as a society if people stopped having kids - assuming we still want to be able to access a doctor, plumber etc in our old age. I think a lot of these unpaid caring roles traditionally done by women are unappreciated in part because they are traditionally done by women. When I see feminists saying it's not possible to be fulfilled as a stay at home mum, I wonder if there's some internalised misogyny there. Like maybe we should pay parents a salary for the work that they do and empower stay at home mums that way?
Capitalism turns absolutely everything in commodities, its not much more than a "deeper" marketing strategy, that's why youtube algorythm recommends videos about marxism, the system only pursues to maximize profits.
Great vid a usual Alice,
But I can guarantee you, as soon as Marxism starts gaining more mass appeal on UA-cam and in other places, they'll put a stop to their perpetuation swiftly.
Or maybe not . . . perhaps the instruments of capitalism really will, directly, bring about its own destruction! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They will eventually sell us the rope with which we will hang them
It's both hilarious and sad every time a large number of people think that what capitalism does is what the left is asking for.
Y’all blame everything on capitalism 😂. Also no, people turn things into commodities not the system itself
@@keodiozubu8670 🥚or🐔?
Your take on stay-at-home moms is one I’ve really come to terms with ever since my sister became one. Childcare would have costed almost as much as she made in yearly wages, so she quit her job to raise the kids while her husband works. Because of her husband’s job, she’s essentially a single mom for half the week, and she still does 80% of the work when he’s home because she doesn’t want to overwork him. She’s lost all her hobbies, she simply doesn’t have time for them, rarely sees any of her friends, rarely has a moment to herself where she doesn’t have work to do. She would tell you she chose this and loves her family up and down, but she’s still admitted to me that she barely feels like a human being these days. She mostly only talks to other moms in her neighborhood and all they talk about are the kids and the husbands because they don’t have time for anything else. My sister is a great mother, but to be a great mother in this situation seems to demand you relinquish your humanity. Her husband doesn’t even notice everything she’s had to give up, kids haven’t cost him anything, he still gets to come home and play video games while she makes sure the kids are happy and cared for. Women should have the choice to be SAHMs for sure, but to pretend this choice isn’t so often made at the expense of their lives, feelings, dreams, hobbies, etc would be silly.
In contrast, she does have two stay at home dads in her neighborhood, I’ve met them myself. They’re not evil people, but they are not required to sacrifice the things she and the other moms do. They send the kids outside to be watched and cared for by the other moms in the neighborhood every day, their wives still cook most of the food, they brag about how they’ve raised their children to do the cleaning so they don’t have to. They talk about their hobbies all the time because they still have time to have them. I think we do need more stay at home dads, but in my experience, they do not take the role as homemaker half as seriously as the women do, and nobody seems to see that as strange.
I don't think stay at home dads will ever experience what sahm's do, simply because men aren't very helpful. They're not taught to be helpful at all, no matter the context. Finding a man who is helpful is very rare
The book All The Rage by Darcy Lockman really highlights this, and how we raise boys and girls differently from birth to have entirely different orientations towards caretaking and homemaking. e.g. If women earn more, they will spend more on cleaning services, food delivery, childcare etc, when men earn more they offload the household tasks they can't do onto their wives*. Studies generally found that when a man does 30% of the work in the home and women do 70% this felt like the most fair distribution to both men and women (feeling like 50/50) because women have a lower tolerance for leaving things undone and men have a lower tolerance for losing free time.
I would recommend giving it a read/listen to anyone interested in all the ways gendered socialisation manifests in parenthood.
*The book primarily focuses on heterosexual couples, noting studies that indicate that same-sex couples are more communicative about homemaking expectations and divide activities by interest/skill level better, as opposed to heterosexual couples where the man will often employ "weaponised incompetence" to avoid
@@sarahcox4292 weaponised incompetence! That us the most important concept when it comes to division of labor in and outside the home
it is proven that divorce-rates will climb up in households where the dad is the one not making money and staying at home. this is not doing a favor for the kids who need a family with both present mom and dad.
@lilje 🤍 I don't have a partner, but I've heard enough bad reviews
I guess I’m one of those “working class women” who sometimes gets a bit tired when hearing endless discussions about what language is or isn’t allowed. It’s tricky when you’re one of the very few women in your field of work, already struggling with things both professional and personal, to then have a group of well-intended women try to drag you on stage to promote feminist ideals. I have gotten judged for declining such things, sent texts such as “There’s a special place in hell for women who do not help other women.” Please, you know nothing about my life or my strife. Besides, I am PIONEERING am I not? How can you say I’m not doing anything?
What I am hopeful for is that the feminism movement does not tear itself apart at the seams
Upon researching terminologies I have discovered I might very well not qualify as true “working class” (anymore) and would therefore like to pre-emptively apologise. Going forward, I will strive to be more mindful with my use of words as I endeavour to continue to partake in these intellectual online exchanges.
Or, in other words:
pls no ban I’m uneducated but I am trying to get b-b-better
@@StillGamingTM Got out of working class as in moved up or down? Probably up?
Feminism can't really tear itself apart. It's social and political ideology that gets denoted as a movement by people who... don't know what feminism is and don't care. If you find inequality between the sexes, and the portrayal of femininity as bad and toxic masculinity as good, to be bad things then you're feminist. If you don't like the idea of being feminist, then it's because people who hate women have made you think that being feminist is a bad thing.
@@minieyke No, you don't get to tell people what or who they are. Your opinions on other people's perspective aren't gospel, and not everyone who agrees with the principals feminists claim to have is feminist. You sound like an evangelical, which is why people call it a religion. "if you believe, you already are! Donate time/money, to the church of yoni today!".
There is a long history of misandry in feminism, Mary Daly being one of the most famous examples. Political lesbianism is a reactionary hate movement. Feminists opposed including female on male SA as rap, and the definition wasn't changed in the USA until 2012. Feminists protested male mental health awareness, until there were no more protests for male mental health awareness, and now you've got tate and a global superpower teetering on the edge of fascism because there are 2 generations of disaffected, anti-social boys with nothing to live for. So thanks for your hand in creating that. Feminists say men are trash, kill all men, it's girls turn now (turn to be.. oppressive POS? Seems like, since that's what they imagined all men 1950's to be). Like, do feminists say women are trash, too or am I missing how calling 1 gender trash and literally deifying the other isn't sexist? Or are you going to say feminists don't say every woman is a goddess/has an inner goddess. Pfft, even the Rad Fem Andrea Dworkin acknowledged feminsm had some misandrist sects, and people rightfully said Andrea had some misandrist takes. How can you sit here and claim, with all this history and precidence that feminism isn't about women exclusively with a straight face? Were you not aware? Do you just reject that they informed more feminist theory than you'll ever write?
@@minieyke That I don’t mind at all. The only thing I dislike is people drawing all sorts of far fetched conclusions simply for declining to do certain activities or, quite literally, _perform._ It’s a very “us vs them” kind of mindset and I’m not into it
Unfortunately, the rise in choice feminism has enabled people to see feminism as an individual choice instead of the patriarchal and systematic oppression women face. Ironically enough the complacency and idea that we are now in a “post-feminist” era has led to us losing the choice of our bodily autonomy
Yes… it became a mere trend, a passing identity phase
May be women rejected u r go career crap 😂 as it back fired up on them
"Unfortunately women are allowed to have choices that don't benefit my ideology"
Stephen Jenkins lol not anymore with roe v wade. As now a forced ideology is imposed on many people within respective states
@@laurencarlson1235 How are you any different if you had your way, exactly?
i just want women to be financially independent, because it allows them to protect themselves from abusive or unfulfilling relationships, it's so important to know that you could always move and pay for your own home in a safe place if that would be needed. i think it's such an important factor in the discussion on women's work. whether it's dependence on a man, or the government, it can become an absolutely miserable situation in a snap, even if you genuinly enjoy raising kids or cleaning the house. a lot of my convictions stem from that belief.
If you are really scared of that, I honestly feel it abandons ideals a bit too much for my own comfort, no one is striving for them anymore, if you have a partner, have some trust in them
exactly!! This is why my mom has to put up with a lot of shit from my dad, simply bcs she's a stay-at-home mom/ housewife.
@@arsuysra when you say shit what do you mean
@@Cecilia-ky3uw abuse
@@arsuysra when you say abuse what do you mean, the term's meaning is dilluted
I would like western feminists talk more on why feminism is still irrelevant and relatively unknown outside of the western world. As a middle eastern man, I can't state enough how much I'm fascinated by the progress happening in your countries, but then I remember the society I live in and I get a panic attack.
The amount and difficulty of the problems we face kind of make the issue of women's liberation seem like it's too soon to be taken seriously. I don't know how feminism can even function in authoritarian, ultra conservative societies that oppress both men and women to the level of dehumanization. Nonetheless, I hope feminism finds its place here, but not white feminism.
Exactly. I'm also a middle eastern girl and as much as I love these topics, I find them irrelevant to our society's problems. It's a pity...
@@melofy-vibes it really is a pity. We need to topple whole regimes, establish real democracies, reach a state of stable economies and then we can start talking about these issues. I have been learning a lot recently and I now realize that western feminism is simply not applicable yet in our societies.
I’m actually quite surprised by this comment since Egyptian Feminism has a long history going back to the early 1900’s at least. a lot of progress being made and a lot of it was undone when Egypt became closer allies with the US and Saudi Arabia after the October 6th war and the rise of Wahabi ideology, but the idea that feminism doesn’t exist in the Middle East is not accurate at all, it’s just suppressed in most Middle Eastern just like a lot of things
yes, i think about this so often. i live in the the u.s and so i am riddled with an immense amount of privilege. there is so much work to be done but i fear i am stuck in this place of inaction. do you have any ideas on how people in the west can help without this facade of altruism seeping in and it turning into a white savior complex? i want to help be apart of dismantling capitalism, patriarchy, systemic racism, ect but i fear that educating myself is the best i can do.
and i know that will never be good enough.
@@Yevjer I'm talking about white western feminism. Of course there are a lot of Arab feminists like Nawal Alsa'adawi, but in general feminist discussions are still very limited to upper middle class elitists. The ordinary Arab person is still oblivious to the idea of feminism.
I definitely recognize the conundrum with choice feminism.
For me, if you grow up in a culture that socially conditions you based on your sex, encouraging a binary gender presentation and performativity, even encouraging what kind of romantic relationship and lifestyle you should want or expect when you're older, is being a housewife then really your choice? I think social conditioning plays a huge part to begin with, and I'm in a privileged position of not having to conform to that oppression, even if I'm just crawling out from under it (but also getting a lot of shit for it because I don't conform, lol). We have to question the extent to which we really have options and opportunities, not just the wage gap: how likely are we to be hired for certain jobs based on gender, race and class? What kinds of options do we really have at many different intersections of femme people? I think, to some degree, actual choice is an illusion for many women. None of these choices exist in a vacuum.
Things really haven't come a long way, even here in the West. Sheryl Sandburg is an incredibly privileged white woman and she STILL wants us to believe that the only reason women aren't succeeding in more workplaces is due to internalized misogyny?? What about all of the people in charge, hiring managers and coworkers who are actively misogynistic?
This is definitely depressing and I'm definitely burnt out and cynical,... but I also have major depression. ;)
Not to mention that all choices take place within the framework of our culture! They are never made in isolation.
So the 'its my choice' people might easily miss how choices are shaped by advertising, bullying, insecurity, coercion, etc.
In other words, the less critical we are of the choices we make, the more likely we are to be reacting / conforming to what society wants of us.
And we won't even go into the whole psychoanalysis thing here 😮
Great video Alice I am sharing this far and wide 💚
Yes! It's totally possible to think something is your choice, when really, it's determinism shaped by the society you live in/the experiences you have. You don't get actual freedom of choice/free will until you question why you want what you want, and what you expect to get out of what you do.
This also applies to feminism as an influence on culture and therefore choice. Many people will choose to do something solely because they understand it to be feminist or that they must be feminist even though it does not actually represent what they want.
"In other words, the less critical we are of the choices we make, the more likely we are to be reacting / conforming to what society wants of us." So what is your solution ? Just bowing to social standards because you fear there could be potentially some sort of rejection ? Nobody has to victimize themselve to that degree - you doing that mainly to yourself at that point.
okay anti feminist, no need to lecture women. Our choices are ALWAYS shaped by culture. When women say "it's my choice" it's usually not confirming to what society wants. Women's liberties are not upto debate by psychoanalysts.
@@ambatuBUHSURK There is no lecturing, just stating mere facts. If you want to victimise yourself to that degree and dont want to take accountability for yourself,fine. It certainly is very easy but does it make your life better ? I doubt it.
I miss second wave of feminism. Women were meeting face to face and talked. Now we have performative feminism and it contributes almost nothing.
2nd wave feminism was also, sadly, very exclusionary of anyone other than cis white women
but they genuinely were able to get a lot done
@@toriestrella Yes and no - black activists were heard then too. I really recommend movie "The Glorias" about Gloria Steinem and second wave of feminism. It shows that even Native American women had space to speak.
@@toriestrella I think that feminism isn't "dead", but rather it's "dead" to cis white women. Most of them don't need it as much as the rest of us so they start saying that "it's dead" or that it doesn't matter anymore or that it was better before. Feminism is currently very big in Latin America and that's a good thing. We've even kind of benefitted from the hit of capitalism: It's mostly through meme pages and sales groups and such that women are first getting organized for what later are suport groups, rallies, abortion funds...
Fourth wave.
Wasnt that the wave that said 90% of all men needed to be killed and all men needed to be put in camps?
this is one of the greatest and accessible deep dives on the critiques of feminism I've seen in a while. Thank you!
Thank you, it means a lot ✨
SAME!
I agree. Thank you.
Mam, I’m REALLY surprise for what I read in this comment section...
And I’m glad at the same time.
I’m not a feminist, but I considered myself as a Pro - Women’s Rights. And unfortunately I don’t think feminism is supporting women rights anymore.
No it's really not. It answers none of the arguments against feminism nor argues why feminism should continue. Nor does it really critique feminism.
The problem is that people don't understand that every movement has an expiration date; the day it expires is supposed to be the day it accomplishes its reason for being initiated... At the same time, people also don't understand the consequences of letting a movement become an identity. Once a movement becomes an identity, people's egos won't be able to let the movement & identity go when it's time for the movement to stop moving.
Feminism in its initial inception, was about fighting for choice & getting equal rights for women 👈🏾 this was its core reason for existing and was also supposed to determine when it was to expire... Feminism actually accomplished giving Western women choice and equal rights but because many women's egos had created an indentity out of the movement, they couldn't let it go... *"Wherever there is an identity, there is always an ego fighting to keep it alive." - Zen proverb*
Thus, since Feminism went from a movement to an identity, Feminist egos have continued to add new agendas to the accomplished original mission statements in an effoert to keep their movement/identities alive... As a result western feminists have gone past fighting for equal rights & choice to fighting for other things... In fact one can use the "waves of Feminism" to track when/where each generation of feminists made addendums to the first movement. The "waves" after the 1st are essentially the alterations each generation of Feminists added to the already accomplished initial agenda of choice and equality. Western women have accomplished the initial goal of choice so much so that today they don't really know the main agenda they are fighting for anymore. Why? Because the movement has lived many waves past its initial purpose and expiry date.
The western ladies fought for choice and equal rights and won... but now some are fighting against each other's choices they don't like instead of fighting for women in the 3rd world to have the choices and equality they have in the west... So it's no longer Feminism in the west, it's now something else, something more political & power focused... Ultimately all movements work best when they are run like task forces; put together for an objective, and once the objective/task is reached, the task force is disbanded till it is required. The problem with letting movements keep moving past their objectives is that they always devolve into something else that ends up being detrimental to the initial movement. Every movement falls prey to this reoccurring dynamic.
I like that you mentioned the part with the lack of focus on things that seem less obvious but are super important to women like public transport. Some of my acquintances are very vocal about right language, but oblivious to Nestle their connection to anti-breastfeeding campaigns, and forget about save affordable housing.
I remember a video essay by The Take which talked about The Spice Girls and ‘Girl Power’ being the market friendly feminism which was a far cry from alternate and radical underground music movements.
Yes, Gerry had a ed, Mel B suffered DV later and they were put through a huge commercial hype machine while they were screaming "Girl Power" into every camera. This had nothing to do with feminism. It had no substance, no educational background, it was just shallow as their music. I really hated it. I think this relativistic feminism (every woman is a feminist no matter what s*it she does) started with them.
Alexa, play 7 Year Bitch
But if I remember correctly, that video also praises The Spice Girls for introducing the idea of feminism to young girls. Yes, it's all about marketing, so remember who their target market is. You can't expect eight year old girls to read feminist theories. Maybe the fans grow up to be more confident, empowered, and believe in themselves. It's still a good thing to have...for little girls.
@@mhawang8204 Not every fan was 8 years old. It's good to introduce girls to feminism but if it is this empty and shallow "Girl Power" screaming feminism without any substance, it is pointless to me.
I am not even sure if they were talking about feminism, I think they only said "Girl Power ✌️🤪😜".
Before we dismantle patriarchy because its not possible
We need to dismantle misandry caused by feminism which nobody questions and opress men when it does not suit their narrative thats why men are becoming weaker and will not be able to sustain the society with help of weaker males and it will collapse
My comment is with the basis that i do believe that the personal is political: As a mexican woman who follows a lot of social media circles from western countries, i have recently seen many people (white women in particular) referring to themselves as feminist or being "activist" while not really engaging with the theory and actual discussions that the title (usually, or to my belief should) come with. In my particular case, my country is very dangerous and violent toward women, and if you "dare" call yourself a feminist you will face backlash and intimidation. (Not to say this doesn't happen in other places, im just speaking from experience). In Mexico being a feminist implies an actual sense of being, it's not a performative act to be seen as "progressive" and not being cancelled by the youth, it means you have a political stance and you will defend it. I see (predominantly white) western women prancing around calling themselves feminist while not really engaging on discourse and not being able to take part in critical thinking or just chats whereas its in a public or private forum, and it kinda bugs me bc i feel they haven't even taken a minute to think about what it means to be a feminist, let alone call yourself one. I understand there is no one way to be a feminist, theres feminist branches for a reason (if not all women are the same, nor should be the goals, the analysis, the debates), but these influencer types really don't seem to care about the impact their words have... Dunno, it's just sad to me. I guess it doesn't harm anyone, yet it feels kinda empty to me. By the way, it doesn't actually require books or going to university to achieve construction of knowledge -whereas it's feminism, gender studies or what you feel like it being-. The Academia generally implies a vertical and uneven power relation when it comes to knowledge, specially when it comes to minorities. You just listen and be open to other experiences (even if those confuse you, like me with the white western feminist boho chic matcha loving influencers). Together we create, together we will overcome. Anyways... be safe everyone, pls don't be mean if you reply. Salut!
This is an interesting cultural difference you’re pointing out, I appreciate you sharing. This may sound silly, but to me, it seems like the culture surrounding feminism in the US is similar to the culture that surrounds a “cultural religion”. It’s something people often subscribe to if it’s popular among their circles and if they agree with the general premise of female empowerment, but it generally doesn’t involve critical engagement with the topic unless someone decides to personally take that path. Similar to how someone may be raised Catholic because it’s like the default religion for their family/region/culture, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re highly spiritual and have a deep personal relationship with their religion. But they can develop that if they choose and they can validly call themselves “Catholic” either way.
I understand why it’s difficult to critique though, people usually use the term “gate keeping” to criticize the ideas you bring up about the importance of engaging with feminism. It’s tough, because anyone can agree with the ideals of feminism, but at the same time, it can be watered-down and corrupted when the language becomes so all-encompassing.
@@yeehaw7313 I appreciate your reply. I never thought about it in that way but it truly makes sense now that you expand on it. Just for the fun of it, yet another difference between cultures thinking about religion: in Mexico the predominant one is catholicism, and even if you are not a practicing individual all social interactions are coded in it. Which is part of what makes feminism and feminist rhetoric such as abortion, agency of our own bodies, lgbtq+ issues etc, seem SO radical to the people around us.
It’s just something you made me think about with your comment… a snippet of what goes on over here.
I also wanted to thank you for reminding me of the gate keeping that comes with a lot of academic leaning titles such as feminist, i need to keep that in mind so i don’t fall in to shaming someone one day since i’m a very politicized individual. Have a wonderful week, keep safe.
just to chime in, you say "I guess it doesn't harm anyone", but when a lot of people "adhere" to a very watered down, sanitized, "safe" version of a movement, that in itself can also be a danger to the original movement. It's so easy for the superficial take to be branded the "reasonable" one, while the original, more studied, more debated, more lived and more critical stance to become branded "too radical", or "too rigid", or "unhip", as per the quote in the video
@@user-sl6gn1ss8p Yeah, i understand what you are saying. I guess its just better for me to hear that in other places it’s even normal or expected for people to be calling themselves feminist in certain circles (whether they are political/academic about it or not), when in my country you can’t even show minimal support for the movement, making us even more politicized. Thank you for your reply, i’ll be thinking about this some more.
Mexican here too! from Tijuana (one of the most dangerous cities for women nowadays) and I agree, every time I see a feminist take from an American white woman even if i don't inherently judge their perspective as I understand we came from different contexts, I tbh just skip them sometimes bc i know their takes are going to be biased into the ''popular''/choice/liberal feminism which pisses me off sometimes because it's frustrating and in my personal opinion, very privileged ad ignorant takes too! Even if I admire the mere action of the activism itself bc i know they mean no harm. They just prefer not to talk about important topics in order not to seem as ''radical'' (as if radical was something bad) and be silenced once again.
Even though this video was informative and interesting, i noticed she completely ignored addressing radical feminists who reject gender and mentioned the radical ones who prefer not to discuss topics with men (i think Mexican women are more prone to have radical ideologies) as if it was ''too much'' or a problem, and can see why, someone would jump to say that's transphobic or misandrist lol. (Again, not judging her or her video at all, just something i noticed and expected due to her being white european)
I admire my fellow Mexican feminist friends and women in general, most of the ones I know take feminism into action, maybe because it's due to the urgency we feel to change our country and because we fear for our life literally every time we interact with a man, as much as it might sound as exaggeration for people from ''safer'' countries u.u
No se va a caer, lo vamos a tumbarrrrr jajajajasjjs
You touched on this briefly but political lesbianism is deeply problematic to me. While I understand the rejection of heterosexuality, these people could simply be voluntarily celibate instead of claiming lesbianism - my point of view comes from being a lesbian myself, not out of politics but because it's who I am. I personally find it offensive that someone would use my identity for a political statement, it feels disrespectful to "real" lesbians who have to fight for respect on a daily basis and are a demographic who face hate crimes, "corrective r***" and other forms of discrimination on top of what we face as women. Although I understand the ideology behind these choices I still find them offensive and have struggled with that for a long time.
I think most stay at home mothers do need a bit extra to connect to others. It can be trips to the market, take your kid to baby swimming, having a hobby like playing guitar, a book club with friends, go to the zoo with kids, boardgames with their spouse, volunteer work. A house wife that is only in the house sounds depressive.
Society has always confused liberty with licentiousness. Just because you Can do anything, that doesn't mean Anything is good for you.
Yep
Finally, an actual thinker
Before we dismantle patriarchy because its not possible
We need to dismantle misandry caused by feminism which nobody questions and opress men when it does not suit their narrative thats why men are becoming weaker and will not be able to sustain the society with help of weaker males and it will collapse
Why not though? Yolo. I’m a god and I can live how I want
Yes, for men also. Seems like feminism is afraid to have become redundant. It creates problems when there aren‘t any anymore. Give these women a hobby like playing an instrument, sports or something like that. Enough with the double standard and the lies!
I am glad for the videos that you produce, and the thought that you give to your scripts. I am an older male with two teenage daughters. I watch a video like this one to consider how I can help them to find out who they are. Without thinking about it, I ascribed to the belief of choice feminism because I feel that I want that choice. Now I should think (and read/educate myself) some more on what may be a better approach or has the approach that I have taken been the best.
And for messages like this one there's still hope.
Good luck on your educational journey. Feminism is a VERY broad area to explore.
Sir, I never comment but I need to tell you that you’re doing a great job and your girls are incredibly lucky 💟
@@morganbrennan87 Thank you. My worry is always to do the best for them. My son is ten years older than my oldest daughter, but he is always trying to make a connection with them. I am hoping that they will achieve what they want, and I want them to be thinking about what they want not what others want. Thank you for your comment. I hope that I am in the right path, and your comment helps me believe that I am on the right path.
Make sure your kids arent feminist. Oh god please dont be one too 💀
You are so chill, found it great ya included that middle-eastern perspective at the end.
All in all very much needed! ✊🏻
Home-makers complain about aspects of home-making that are annoying them; working people complain about aspects of working that are annoying them...and feminists complain about aspects of feminism that are annoying them. Should we suddenly conclude that feminism is inherently incompatible with a fulfilling life?
Newsflash: everyone complains about things in their life, and they usually complain the most about the things that occupy the most attention or passion in their lives. And yet, those same people are usually quite happy with their lives and find them fulfilling. In fact, they most often derive their sense of fulfillment and happiness from precisely those aspects of their life that they complain about the most.
this video reminded me of something I've been thinking about for a very long time, which is how to handle someone else's choices. Let me use an example, everyone is free to use or not use makeup, but if everyone really was free to choose you'd expect something like 20% of men and 20% of women (I'm not including many genders here I know, but for the sake of the example it's easier this way) to use it, but that's not how it is, society pushes men to not use it and women to use it, at the same time if you stop random people on the street and ask them if they choose to wear makeup or not out of their own free will 99% of people will say yes.
I want to respect people's choices but I also want to not overlook the fact that many choices are a product of society pushing on people, this is why I try to challange both myself and my friends a tiny bit, I always try to ask why people do or don't do some things, I try not to be too pushy but at the same time I want people to start really thinking about what they really want, what suits them most, and if at the end of this journey a women still wants to be a stay at home person, a man still wants to go to the gym every free hour he has, and stuff like that then good, I'll respect that, but first we need to really think about why we do what we do.
@lilje 🤍 Wouldn't it? What about all the stay-at-home mums, who totally loose their own identity, only catering to their husband's and family's needs, but yet decided to do so "freely". Yet, maybe their decisions wasn't as free as you may think. Their decision was driven by social expectations or maybe financial reasons (one of the big problems with the gender pay gap - it usually seems to make sense that the woman stays at home as she earns less, this seems to be a free and rational decision). Many women decide these things, and in the end, we don't have any more equality than we had before. Quite on the contrary, it is now a no-go to criticize these circumstances, as it was their own choice...
@lilje 🤍 I want to rehighlight something I should have made clearer in my original post, the most important thing is to respect others, talk to them, understand them and never force them to do anything, if by talking to a friend they find out they were doing something that actually isn't best for them then good, I helped them figure that out, likewise if they by talking to me help me find out something I'm doing that isn't best for me, which did happen and hopefully will happen again.
Yeah, that’s kind of how I see it too. I don’t really believe we have as much free will as we like to think we do, so many of our choices are shaped by our culture and environment and the social pressures that act on us (even if we think we aren’t affected by them). I think it’s important not to disrespect someone or be cruel under the banner of constructive criticism, but we should all really encourage each other to question the motives behind our choices and investigate them and properly unpack them. Like I remove the hair from my legs, I know it’s not necessary and I know I do it purely out of cultural pressure, I even stopped doing it for a year or so to try and see if it is something I could do without and come to terms with, but what I found was that having hair free legs is so deeply tied to my sense of self worth becuase of conditioning from childhood that I struggle with my dense of self esteem when they are hairy, even though I intellectually know better. So I went back to removing the hair because sure I could go through a long emotional process of coming to terms with all the cultural baggage and learning to feel okay with sticking out socially, but I came to the decision that there are better uses of my time, but I’m fully aware that that choice is not free, it’s not my free will at all.
Choices aren't made in a vacuum, we are constantly influenced by society and esp. social media and we should be very aware of it and don't deny it.
"I only want the nose job for myself" No you don't.
"I shave my legs just for myself" No you don't.
You may feel like it but you really don't.
YES. 🫶
I seriously laughed to myself when I heard you say that you didn’t believe that stay-at-home moms couldn’t have fulfilling lives. I’m a stay-at-home mom and my instinctive thought before I even heard the rest of the video was DUH! If you do nothing but stay in your house and care for the house and children then yeah, you are going to be unfulfilled and depressed.
Betty Friedan and her book, The Feminine Mystique were very classist. Most women throughout history have worked. The paid work they performed was “women’s work” so not deemed sophisticated or prestigious or apparently worthy of note. The women in my family tree have worked and for as far back as I am aware. They did stay home and take care of the kids but performed paid work as well. Both of my grandmothers had “respectable” careers (nurse and teacher) but didn’t find their lives any more valuable through these careers.
Women who were “just stay-at-home moms” at the time were the backbone of many communities. During a time when the western world was much less global and more isolated, they were the ones working on improving their communities. You didn’t just sit at home and watch your kids, you met with other women regularly (often through church) to organize and work on whatever the cause was. Or you met with other women just to shoot the shit and connect. You had that proverbial village to help you with many aspects of life. (I’m not idealizing the past as I recognize the glaring issues.) Working class women and families had to lean on one another to survive!
When I quit my mind numbing/soul sucking corporate job to stay home with my kids, I knew that I couldn’t “just” do that. In the long tradition of most women throughout history (through necessity or choice), I do outside work and have outside interest.
I don’t think having a career is an automatic win for the sisterhood but it certainly is for capitalism.
So basically you still work but not in a corporate job.
@@mjj7781 no shit we dont live in a coummnist utopia we still need to work and get paid
I am convinced that a lot of the hate towards stay-at-home mothers is the direct product of neoliberal propagandizing in order to increase the workforce/consumer base.
We'll never find the answer if we focus on the problem of unfulfilled lives as a feminist matter. Lives are unfulfilled regardless of gender roles. Babysitting sucks, going to the office sucks. Throwing your life away for compromises sucks.
@@-grey why is personal fulfillment not a feminist issue? I find this viewpoint to be dismissive and dehumanizing. We’re humans. The amount of labor we do today in unbearable. In the past, people worked less, had more time with loved ones, and in many aspects had more access to fulfillment. Access to food, healthcare, education, ASSISTANCE, coupled with the lack of time to rest are aspects that play into why women in particular are unhappy. Acting like feminism is only about “big” issues and not the day to day is why we’re stuck in abstracts and not actually doing as much as we could. The personal is political. SAHM that have community, that aren’t always stressed about making dinner, that can take a day off to get a manicure or their hair done or go to the doctor or work on a business, are probably more fulfilled (and probably will live longer from a decrease in stress).
Being French as well, something I'll never forget was the time a good few years ago when I, as a teenager, was visiting London with my mom, and watching TV in the evening. I can't recall what show we were watching, but one of the hosts was a woman wearing a headscarf. I didn't think much of it. I think it crossed my mind that it was unusual, enough to make me curious what she had to say - but I didn't actually process it, until my mom expressed her surprise. She asked me if that was, in fact, a muslim woman wearing a headscarf on TV, and told me that wasn't normal. That's when it clicked: it was, in fact, my first time seeing it. I'm thankful that even my most definitely ignorant teenage self disagreed with my mom right away; in *what world* should we forbid women from appearing on TV based on what clothes they're wearing? Certainly not one I wish to support.
Because of my privilege, I lived a few more years without thinking about this anecdote too much. I only started to consider it again as a young adult, when I started to involve myself in social issues and political discussions. A young French Muslim woman of the same age as me, however, will have lived her whole life without seeing herself on TV, and knowing that she wouldn't be accepted there.
Yes your privlaged. You french love all faiths. Your enlightened republic is so good. Cant wait for the warm tide of history to sweep over you again. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks. You have no memory of your own country 2015 LOL.
I consider myself left-leaning, so i hope this will generate not too much hate. But as a man i really want to get this off my chest: A large part of modern feminism is nothing but a neoliberal/capitalist feverdream. the so called 3rd and 4th waves are empty shells compared to the former strength, importance, urgency and agendas of this movement. It also suffers from something that happens to almost anything millennials and the mainstream media/hollywood have touched and/or hijacked: It has become all about aesthetics. Performance and symbolism seems to be everything. Pretty pictures, fotos, poses and words without real depth and without actual action. Also, the deliberate ignorance or refusal to acknowledge problems of "modern" young men (e.g. lack of education, lack of love/affection/sexuality, loneliness, sexual and societal selection processes, classism...) breed a whole generation of boys and men whose longing for extreme conservative and/or fascist political systems grows by the day. I get that many powerful men "rule the world" and are "predatory to the human system". Most men are not powerful though. Most men live quiet and sometimes very invisible blue collar lives, they earn little for very physically demanding jobs that keep our infrastructure intact. They have no power and due to their lack of status and attractiveness, no positive outlook in a life in our neoliberal, socio-darwinistic society whatsoever. This quiet desperation is the reason things like the "black pill" and incel community is growing and their "ideology" is spreading like a wildfire.
I think from the male perspective this is it. Many feel completely alienated from left wing circles, these are men that could easily help the cause but the message of your intensely privileged and have no problems, pushes them away. Especially at a time when men are at their worst. Some as you say go to the far right as a result. But many are just shoved into not being political on important issues.
I hate to say it but the left has little to offer men at the moment, I say this a big lefty who wants to improve things. Its bad for society. If men felt like their futures would b in anyway made better by feminism, those graphs would change in an instant.
@@jbuchan12 absolutely agree. But it just proves that politics are a dynamic field, not static. And if an ideology is not compatible with your individual life circumstances anymore (e.g. "we as men are priviledged and we have no problems") you change your political stance to something that reflects your reality. Hence the turn to the right wing.
@@WHOTHAFUCK Well, if everyone stayed the same elections would never change year on year. It's very difficult. I think people try to be a reasonable as possible. But when you find yourself on a side that at best doesn't want to you there and its because of ur identity. Funny things start to happen. You look for somebody to talk to, a kind word etc. This hasn't happened to me but I have seen it happen to a lot of ppl. There is a lot of woman now that are talking about men's rights from feminism. Cos they know what could happen if they go to the right. It seems to b really effective.
@@jbuchan12 “the left has little to offer men at the moment” I think a lot of modern feminism is a distraction hijacked by the media to make the left seem less appealing to the average person. The left should be about redistributing wealth/ workers rights/ finding better ways to live/more visceral woman’s issues. None of this “demand your worth”/ girlboss bs. I say this as a woman who is extremely far left.
@@milesfurther4395 Yes I think this is true. When I say nothing to offer men. I should clarify. Everything you have just mentioned would hugely benefit everyone including men. Most men are not wealthy after all.
However a lot of the rhetoric causes men to be uncomfortable in left wing spaces. Girl boss is really minor. Maybe silly but OK I'm not bothered, I do think more woman should be leading companies.
I'm from the UK, so I can give an example from here. The green party believes in all the really good left wing policy you would expect. I am happy to vote for them they will help me. Green party feminist then says in Parliament, that she wants to introduce a law that locks all men in their homes at 6pm every night. Labour then says good idea and tries to implement it. Nothing came of it but if u were a man, would u vote for that? Then you have pro choice left wing men saying oh crap I can't justify that. Extreme example but you can see what I mean.
I am not a mother, but I've watched my mom done both; being a stay-at-home mom and a working mom. I've had open conversations with her, where she confessed about the downsides of both choices. At the end there's no such thing as women can never win, because that's what I thought. But everyone's got to make a choice, the best one for them, and it will come with the good, the bad and the in-between.
That is so so true. Sadly for a women there doesn’t seem to be a win win situation at all. She’s criticized for both and there’s definite downsides for both. But I think getting to a place where a women is financially independent helps a LOT and she can demand her equal rights in a relationship. However I know how hard it is for the majority of us to become financially independent especially by the time to be a mother and have kids etc
@@Mia-ge7xf There's no win because feminazism is a delusional disorder and form of narcissism that promotes masculinity at the sacrifice of femininity. Long live the patriarchy!
Before we dismantle patriarchy because its not possible
We need to dismantle misandry caused by feminism which nobody questions and opress men when it does not suit their narrative thats why men are becoming weaker and will not be able to sustain the society with help of weaker males and it will collapse
@G4ts what do you mean let nature do the sorting, I’m kinda confused
@@Mia-ge7xf Why is this a sad thing? That's literally just being human; we only have so much time to work with and we all need resources to survive to begin with. Like, people recognize this when they're children and you just realized you can't have it all? Wut?
More to the point, having kids in the first place is NOT about the mother; it's about the children. So being financially independent and being a mother sounds great until you realize that doing both without having help effectively screws over the child. Heck, the "fatherlessness" epidemic thing has been credited as being a leading issue with many children so at the very least a male authority figure is prolly a good idea to have too.
Which is what I find the most disturbing about this strand of feminism. It focuses so much on women to the detriment of literally everyone and everything else. Even the individuality of women. Is it any wonder why this version of Feminism was battered so heavily?
Recently I was watching a woman talk about how women should not go to college because their first priority should be to serve their husband and have his children. I don't think I can agree with choice feminism after seeing this.
There are some really smart women out there ...
I think it's envious behavior to restrict them from learning ...
In the west, we need all hands on deck ...
That’s hardly “choice” given that they believe that other women to follow their priorities.
This is a dangerous idea and leaves women and children vulnerable. What if the husband leaves her. Devotion to the home does not guarantee the same devotion and commitment of the man and children towards you.
Gilead.
@@WillowT442 the same can be said about the opposite. When both parents work, they become accustomed to a higher way of living. If one of them looses their job or something happens, they can’t afford their lifestyle anymore so it’ll be difficult to stay afloat.
I also don’t think it’s wise for us to teach women that they should plan on being single mothers because their husbands are pieces of shit. It’s a toxic mindset and does not benefit men or women.
My personal judgment of women is that I do not support submission in relationships. I think that people in general should seek horizontal relationships and not vertical ones and in my view women who seek to submit do so out of a lack of courage to pursue a relationship of equals because that would entail standing up to their partner, insisting on certain needs being met, and standing their ground and dealing with the aftermath. Perhaps they fear not being able to find relationships if they don't submit but i dont believe a woman can have a truly fulfilling life on the basis of submission. (I say this because ive met many women who insisted on subission and most suffered from deep rooted self esteem issues and didnt seem to like women very much. I dont claim that every woman who submits is necessarily like that but I've yet to meet one who isnt)
With current divorce laws there are no horizontal relationships any more. Women are on top and men on the bottom. The opposite of what feminism teaches.
Amazing video, and I feel like this has given me some great tools to figure out my own disillusionment with modern feminism. Something I would like to add, is that I think motherhood itself is left out of a lot of modern feminism discussions. My opinion is that it seems like a lot of people my age think of motherhood as "cringe" in itself, or that it does mean you have to give up your interests, and independence. Going into being a new mom, this is scary to me, and being in the US, I do wonder if we provided more tools for families (paid maternity leave, accessible subsidised childcare), motherhood wouldn't become something you have to become a martyr for. I think that capitalism and the Girlboss movement have really muddied feminism, and that's coming from someone that loves their career and wants to be able to do it all.
Is it possible to be both a full time parent and a full time worker?
My mum had it all. She became a home maker and raised two kids, as we got older she started a side hustle, then got her nursing degree, and retired after 20 1:06 years of being an LPN, she owns her own home, owns her car, takes several trips to Florida a year and does whatever she wants now. The trick to having it all is to do it in stages, have kids young, the sooner you do, the sooner you get to start on your career, invest invest, invest, and get a degree, start a career, and you'll have lived two full lives. It's a lot of work, but anything with keeping is.
You have allowed yourself to be suckered by propaganda, because women not wanting children are a noisy but ultimately tiny minority. We are talking 5-10% of the population according to the surveys here.
@@lancewalker2595 in Capitalism? HA!
@@Jamhael1 In "capitalism"? Try reality. It's not possible IN REALITY.
I think the ideas that feminism is dismissive of class and too individualistic to be useful is both incredibly understandable and deeply frustrating.
Feminism has been historically classist - it can still be. That being said, if tomorrow class was completely abolished patriarchy would still exist. So while I think class and capitalism is a looming discussion because of how deeply pervasive it is, it’s not the only discussion to be had.
And I think that this is really important to keep in mind moving forward, what with the hyper-marketable, hyper-individualist form of feminism that exists today. Feminism being co-opted by corporations and capitalists does not make it any less necessary.
I don't think it's intellectually honest to generalize all of feminist history as being dismissive of class, especially when you consider the second wave itself. This is like saying in the 20th century, there was only one genre of music that played in the radios when obviously musical subcultures existed at every corner of society (and still do). What you should be saying is that mainstream feminism has been dismissive of class (as it still is and always will be.) That is because of its liberal tendencies, people did ignore many different schools of thought in feminism that did address the issues of class better than any liberal would do.
Take an example of Shulamith Firestone, The Dialectic of Sex. Much of her philosophy adds to what Marx and Engels already said about dialectical materialism. Her analysis of male domination/female subordination renders the female sex as a class, it goes beyond a socialist revolution. A feminist revolution would exist before a socialist one, but goes beyond it. She made her case by showcasing that existing socialist societies have tried to expand women's roles without fundamentally altering them, to integrate women into a male world, rather than eliminating sex class altogether. Firestone was just one radical feminist philosopher in the early 70s among many.
Even in the contemporary world, there's a widespread radical feminist movement (6b4t) that exists all the way from South Korea to China. Also i would say that in Latin America and the middle east, radical feminist thinking is much more common than in the west. I sure do wonder why that is.
Well, many radical feminists would say sex/gender IS class :) There are loads of theorists who have extended Marx's traditional conception of class (which were based on the rise of private property mainly land/enclosure in Western Europe) to the idea of castes of people (on the basis of sex, race, etc.) being reduced to the level of private property i.e. chattel. Fanon on colonialism and slavery for example.
Its also been incredibly hateful towards men
Feminism will die. Long live the patriarchy!
It's rather hilarious how feminists and other socialist justice losers think all white males are rich when they are talking about a select few. So every single white male in America has the same amount of money as Bill Gates and Elon Musk? LOL. We all know that the actual reason socialist justice exists is because of jealously. Plebians always want what they can't have.
It is perhaps no coincidence that the right to choose for women is considered 'liberating'. You can choose to be a house-wife, or a worker. Choose between shitty tea and shitty coffee. The freedom to choose a.k.a. capitalism.
Keep up the great work Alice :)
Indeed, the multitude of options gives the impression of choise. Choosing coke or pepsi. Choosing your lifestyle blogger. Choosing your employer. Choises that make us feel like we're making a difference, but the feeling is mainly to us, less to the society. And distracting us from really disrupting how things are.
Lol exactly.
Honestly an interesting take I didn't think about!!! Would you be down to further elaborate or send me smth to watch or read to explain that idea further? You got me curious and I wanna hear more about it ^_^
@@adrasthe314 Hey there! I am very glad to hear that you are curious about my observation. But I do want to warn you that I am not a trained social scientist/philosopher/sociologist/historian. Meaning what I say might be entirely incorrect. I have done a bit of reading in some stuff, and what I have said and will say is a mixture of my observation and some reading. TLDR : take it with a pinch of salt.
During the Cold War, the US championed itself (in fact it continues to do so) as the the land of the free, as you are free to choose which was against the Soviet style state. If you do take a moment to think about the very idea of a choice, this itself is rather new with regards to human history. 300 years ago you basically had to be a peasant if you were born that way and also a king, if you are born into appropriate nobility. But Capitalism gave us choice, so its human progress. Except it did not.
People in America can choose insurance and still be in poverty. In Europe things are a bit better, but the very recent leaks of Uber shows that things aren't really doing that well. You see Capitalism is ultimately an economic system of oppression, but to justify this oppression, we are told stories. These stories are what the post Marxist scholar Gramsci calls Hegemony. We, the people, keep seeing the hegemony through what the government says, what other people say, through what it expected of us, etc. And capitalistic hegemony, as I see it, has definitely left its mark in the girl boss feminism being discussed here.
When celebrities like Katy Perry call themselves feminist, my gut squirms. I am a staunch Marxist (again take this as a disclaimer) and a man (more disclaimer), but I am pretty certain Katy Perry could buy her way out of problems that ordinary everyday women would face. If a woman takes a subway, she is fundamentally more likely to be harrassed, raped, killed or all of the above. Katy Perry has a fundamentally lower probability of facing that (but of course being a woman in a patriarchal society its not 0).
So what a woman chooses, whether its being a mom or not a mom : fundamentally she has deal with the double whammy of patriarchy and exorbitant American bills. As a Marxist, I don't see that as empowerment. If the same woman has to work three jobs to keep her life together while claiming to be a feminist because she can "choose" not to have a baby; the choice itself is heavily subject to her material conditions. That is where my comment comes from :)
@@sagnikmukherjee1189 Thanks a lot!!!! :D
THANK YOU! I Am so grateful to you for talking about this subject. Subscribed. Thank you
Feminists are having a debate over whether women should have choices?
To an outsider this stuff sounds completely nuts.
You want to liberate women from oppression by telling them what to do?
Believe me, as a Marxist, this is simply nuts...
I really don't understand what is meant by the take of "to dismantle the patriarchy, we need to reject heterosexuality". What does that rejection look like? Is it that every male-attracted woman should simply not fall in love and have relationships with any man ever? Will relationships then be reserved only for same sex attracted persons? By that logic, would being male attracted in any shape or form be considered a hindrance to social progress and a betrayal of women? I'm going out on a limb here to say that any feminist who believes that sexuality is a political and feminist choice and that simply becoming lesbian is the ultimate solution to misogyny clearly lacks any understanding of people in general
year late reply (because I'm a year late seeing the video), but mmmmmmmhm 100% what you said
it also kind of figures that many "political lesbians" of 2nd Wave feminism would turn out to also be TERFs when trans folks like me started getting more mainstream media attention 😐😑
I think a better way to phrase it would be "dismantling heteronormativity". The assumption that all women want/need a man is problematic and exclusive to lesbians. I myself am bisexual and have a boyfriend, but in our relationship we practice seeing each other as equals. We both put in care for the other whereas in traditional, or conservative heterosexual relationships, there are expectations forced upon both partners. It is anti-feminist to insist that men need to be providers, it is also anti-feminist to insist that women be homemakers. Women and men need each other, we're all people at the end of the day
@@zilacasaol1311you don’t really need to interpret the concept. It’s known as political lesbianism and was conceived by Sheila Jeffreys. It’s utterly unserious and entertained primarily by radfems and terfs.
@@uhwaykin isn't Sheila herself now a terf?
@@zilacasaol1311 There are expectations forced upon partners in every relationship.
My biggest issue with Choice Feminism is how often is this choice an actual real choice? For instance, makeup. I have a issue when people call wearing makeup a choice because I don’t think it really is. When you are surrounded by a highly patriarchal society where the patriarchal values about beauty, capitalism and consumerism, social media etc, will have you believe that you are beautiful only if you look a certain way, how then can you really choose to “empower” yourself by wearing makeup? How is wearing makeup really empowering if it feeds into maintaining the status quo of beauty?
Similarly, marriage, motherhood etc. When you are surrounded by systems that make you believe that you are allowed be only this is order to be worthy of any social capital, how is your decision to play into the system a choice?
I really hope we can tackle this commodification of feminism.
All of this!
Breathing is not a choice. Putting on makeup is a choice. Habbits and conditioning can be changed if people really want to change them. As a man can tell you one thing men prefer is natural beauty over makeup, fake hair and nails. The woman who get attention from men with makeup on are I only seen as for having a good time not for having a relationship, so we don't actually take them seriously we rather natural beauty. I believe it has more to do with marketing than the patriarchy. They take advantage of many women who compete with one another.
You really think I put this rainbow on my face for a man? You're...very very ignorant. You really think the glitter is for a man?
It's because women tell me I'm not a woman due to my disability. Fine. I'm not a woman. Then I'll paint myself into whatever I want to be.
It is my choice. This? This is exactly what we mean by you're not a feminist. You can't stand my choice because people like you are raising a pitchfork at me because my wheelchair doesn't fit into your cookie cutter of what a woman is.
@@S.T_the_Trini Men saying they prefer natural women is bs in our current culture. Sure some do, but there is a reason why the most followed accounts on Instagram and most desired women in pop culture are the Kardashians and other celebs with plastic surgery, makeup, fake nails and fake hair.
Men say they want natural women, but then shame them for natural bodies, natural body hair, acne, blemished skin etc. They say all this and still desire models. What you think is natural beauty, is often still the result of light makeup, expensive skincare and airbrushing.
Fact just is, that a few men saying “we prefer natural” doesn’t negate the societal pressure that both women and men feel to look “presentable” or “attractive”. And so many industries profit off of this pressure and insecurities, so they sure as hell won’t push the “all natural” movement.
PS: Most people look average or even below average without any form of self beautification, which is why especially women spend all this money to keep up with society’s standards. It’s not because we think you like it
I can understand where your criticisms come from. I know for me i simply just find doing my makeup a hobby, yes there are people that do it for those reasons but I know for me it’s just liking glitter lol. It’s the same with marriage I just love someone so I want a big wedding celebrating how big that love is. It’s really a nuanced conversation and everything else I agree on.
Such a great breakdown. I just subbed!
I love how Alice brought up hijab. Growing up in the United States, I have been under constant attack for my hijab. I wish that others would simply allow me to wear it in peace.
you are brainwashed
As a 50 something American male, I really appreciate your videos and point of view. Frankly, every time I think feminism is annoying, one of my friends will say something dumb and offensive about women. The overturn of Roe has been a pinnacle of such moments. Keep ‘em coming.
Calling women ‘dishwashers’ or implying that every woman uses only fans makes me frustrated
How come a 50 something American male is not sure about his own age ? Dementia, is it ?
@@xxxmxxwm1564 with amount of money coming out of of we cannot be sure
@@Doc-hp5wf Men do most of the paying - if they were so bothered about women doing it they wouldn't monetarily support it.
@@DesiCat789 what you just said is utter nonsense an if your not reflective enough to know why that speaks to your lack of sense more than anything
I'm having a very hard time accepting this third wave of choice feminism because it comes with the crucial add-on of "being politically conscious" that I see so many people ignore while they're preaching it.
it's an issue we found ourselves constantly fighting and disagreeing with the right liberal movement. Sure, you can choose to play gender roles, but what are you teaching? is it clear that it was your choice? does your partner even acknowledge that it is a choice?
and outside of your sphere, what does this choice do to contribute to feminism? cause all I see is someone following the same patriarchal patterns that oppress others.
What about those who don't have the same choices as you?
Feminism and sorority should not come with blind support but with respect, the ability to question each other and our choices, and most importantly accountability.
Just because someone’s a woman doesn’t mean it’s their duty to contribute to feminism.
Completely agreed! Choice feminism maybe stops too soon at "don't tell me what to do or wear" while ahead lies the question of "what do i as a person in society represent and how can it harm others".
IMO it's like "good respectful bosses" who preach laissez-faire capitalism, to illustrate with an analogy.
The biggest problem with modern feminism is it attracts unhinged narcissists to the cause, teaches them that accountability doesn't exist for them, and therefore makes sane women look like the crazies. If feminists would just recognise toxic women do exist and outcast them entirely, the movement would garner real momentum.
@@oliviatreip2613 it isn’t but the criticism is of choice feminism which states that women can do and live however and still be regarded as feminist such as the example of choosing the lifestyle explained above. A woman who claims to be a feminist but either preaches or glamorizes a lifestyle like this is allowed within choice feminism but traditional feminism would call a woman like that unfeminist. Choice feminism has muddied the definition of feminism to two low level criteria (and you only have to get one to pass): 1, claim to be a feminist, 2, be a woman
@@mistermistyeye9218 yeah that makes sense. But I don’t agree with the criticism of choice feminism. What’s the point of ‘liberating’ women from one restrictive lifestyle if you just replace it with another restrictive lifestyle just because that one’s ‘more feminist’?
Why do you separate people based on their skin color, implying that if you have a specific skin color do you have this specific life experience, but the reality is that each individual human has lived it's specific life experiences and we don't kwon each individual history until we talk to the person? Please, people are more than just skin color.
Good stuff. Not on board with the idea that stay at home mums can't live fulfilling lives though. Being a home maker (man, woman or non binary) does not mean you can't have hobbies or travel. It simply means you are the primary person looking after your home and/or children. Personally I got to be a home maker for some years and I found it to be the most fulfilling job I've ever had. I'm a working dad now and, while I find my career enjoyable and fulfilling, I still wish my wife and I could go back to our previous arrangement in which she was the bread winner. At this stage we can't, but I can provide the opportunity for her to do the thing we both want to do most, and that is to spend lots of time with our children. I'm not here to say everyone should feel the same way, I'm just saying my wife and I often talk about how we feel about our lives, and we both feel being a stay at home parent/home maker is the most important, most challenging, most beautiful and most rewarding role we've had. I'd swap my career to be a stay at home dad again in a heartbeat. Who cares about a stupid job when you could be spending 90% of your waking hours with your kids instead? Of course having the option is important, but it works both ways. Being forced (even just by circumstances) to leave home and work every day when you want to stay with your kids sucks. Being a home maker when you don't want to probably sucks even more, because it's a 24/7 gig, but it doesn't mean the other option is any good. I genuinely think it is wrong to say someone can't be fulfilled by being a home maker. I was very happy doing it. Exhausted, but very happy. If any millionaire or billionaire is reading this, please PM me if you'd like to sponsor my return to stay-at-home-dadness.
Idk, like having a life where you feel like all you did was put your children and your relationship with your husband above yourself seems....tiring. Again, this is relative
@@gaeig Definitely agree that it is relative. And yes! Life with children (at least my life with my children) is tiring. Being a parent is tiring, always! So is going to the gym, studying, having a job, going to a party, growing vegetables, looking after your dog, hanging our with your elderly relatives for the holidays... Lots of beautiful and enjoyable things are tiring - but they are not ONLY tiring. I don't know if you have children or not, but I can tell you confidently that if you are lucky enough to find someone you want to share your life with, and if you decide to have a family with that someone and are lucky enough to be successful at it, the children you have become the most amazing part of life. By a long shot! You don't stop caring about other things, you just learn that there is this whole other tier of loving and caring that you didn't know existed. I love my job, I've always wanted to work in IT and get paid to think about solving issues for a public organisation doing something that actually matters to me. I am passionate about what I do for a living.. Still, I'll walk away in an instant to be with my kids full time and watch them grow daily. Because literally everything else is secondary. But that's not the case for everyone, like you said, it's relative. That's kind of what I'm saying too. Not every mum who is a stay at home mum is unfulfilled, it comes down to the individual. So everyone, without exception, should get a choice in whether they are a stay at home parent or not. Because being forced to not have a career when you want one and being forced to leave your children 10 hours a day, 5 days a week both suck infinite sweaty balls.
Agreed!
I completely agree! Working a stupid job to make barely enough money to pay someone else to take care of my kid or spend my day playing with my kid, the choice was easy! I would never have thought that before I had my child, but now, there is no way I'm going back to work as long as I can afford to. I'm lucky and privileged to be a stay-at-home mom and I intend to enjoy it as long as I can.
Also I don't understand this idea that if I pay someone to take care of my kid, it's a job, that person has a job, so it can be fullfling, but if I do the exact same job but it's my kid, then it's not a job and not fulfilling?? It makes no sense to me, that's some capitalistic mind fuck there. It's only a job if it's someone else's kid 😂😂 if you love it, save some money and do it yourself! (but of course, it should not be imposed on anybody, we all agree there)
And finally, you can be stay-at-home parent and political and activist. If anything, I have more time to go to demonstrations and be politically active now.
Sometimes I feel like the patriarchy is winning. Women are ok putting on the role of patriarchal femininity...wearing a mask for men, letting go of self-awareness, negating purpose for validation...I think social media has made it much worse. I am tired of seeing so many women fall for patriarchal ideals today. The intersection of feminism and capitalism is also upsetting.
If men, having higher suicides rates, living shorter lives, dropping out from college, having to be conscripted etc. is winning, I wonder what losing would be like.
@@oluchukwuokafor7729 in fault of men. Winning it's not harassment, sexism, earning less. Being emotional Pilar of relationships, still doing most of unpaid labor. Higher male suicide it's just results of toxic macsulinity. Nobody benefits from patriarchal society.... That's what we are trying to change.... So both men and woman can live better lives.
@@Patricia-uz2xx So men set up the patriarchy to torment everyone including themselves?
@@oluchukwuokafor7729 Women attempt suicide more often. Men dropping out of college in droves is a result of many things. Men are less likely to seek medical care, so that contributes heavily to lower life expectancy.
@@oluchukwuokafor7729 The fact that you think patriarchy losing = men suffering is embarrassing
Not only are the things you mentioned one of the results of patriarchy, but they are also misleading and are often wrongly used to pretend that men have jt harder than women when they dont.
First off, the higher maIe su of cide rate is primarily due to 2 things: 1. they are mire likely to own guns and thus use guns to do it, whereas women usually dont have guns and thus have to resort to less lethal methods like pills or drowning. 2. Guys are more likely to live alone whereas girIs are less likely to Iive alone, thus when girIs attempt su of cide there is a bigger chance someone will find her in time and call an ambulance
Both of those things are caused by patriarchy. Men's obsession with machismo is what makes so many of them adamant to own guns. It makes them feel manly, powerful, and "aIpha"
to own a dangerous weapon. There is also the patriarchal idea that guys are supposed to be protectors, so they feel like owning a gun helps them fulfiII that social obligation. The second one is also caused by patriarchy, as there is more shame on men for not moving out of family homes than there is on women (at least in the USA which is where Im talking about).
But also, your statistic is misleading. Although its true that guys succeed in sue of cide more often than women, women actually ATTEMPT it more often. But for the reasons mentioned above, the chances of women being saved from their attempt is higher because of choice of method and proximity to other people. Women aIso experience depression and mentaI health issues at a higher rate than men as a result of being held to higher standards, sociaI judgment, and stress caused from sacrifices they make for their family (double shift is the best example, women do at least 60% of the housework in the modern day even in double income households... so women never get a break, they work all day then come home and work all day)
The college thing is due to multiple factors. One of them is that guys have more viabIe job opportunities that dont require a degree than women. For women, there are extremely few decent paying jobs if they dont get a degree. Whereas men have much more options, so much more of them opt to go for those jobs instead.
Another factor is that women are often judged more harshly than men in job applications so the number of women who return to university to get a second degree is higher than for men, since men only need 1 degree to be taken seriously. This is one of the reasons why there are way more women than men on college campuses. Also, a big factor is also the pressure on men to drop out in order to make quick money to support their family. This is a pressure created by patriarchy that says men are supposed to be providers and women are supposed to be homemakers. These gender roles put pressure on men to take care of the entire family financially, even if means having to drop out.
Finally, the conscription thing is a joke. Its an imaginary problem men invoke to feel like victims when women talk about ACTUAL problem they face. Assuming you are a US citizen or a citizen of a country that is a US ally, you have never been conscripted, and likely will never be conscripted. The US army is big enough to single handedly destroy half the plant with sheer fire power, conscription wont be necessary even if we enter a world war. That being said, it is feminists who tried to A) force conscription to apply to women, and B) some feminists advocated to eradicate it all together. But misogynistic men clutched their pearls about the idea of "weak women" being allowed to join the ranks.
I don't like the phrasing that 'as a white western woman' I can't decide what feminism looks. It seems pointless and self-defeating. No one person, or even group of people gets to decide such a thing as essential and encompassing as feminism. Failing to participate by silencing yourself only harms the movement. A better way to put it might be: 'I alone cannot decide what feminism should look like, but here is what I have to offer'. This way you are both participating, but doing so knowing that other voices with different perspectives are also needed.
I like that
I agree! Though perhaps to add, I think the responsibility that comes with being a woman more privileged than some (meaning your voice is given more merit by power structures due to your socioeconomic class, your race, your religion, etc.) is to consciously make room for less historically privileged women in the conversation while also sharing your views. As you're saying, none of that means you shouldn't share your opinion as a white, western woman. It just means you have a responsibility to not to dominate the conversation, due to the fact that your opinion is automatically given more weight by power structures. Hopefully that distinction makes sense
Not all the time. Sometimes you just want a space and fill it with what you want, however privilleged you are. One video could be about her, what she wants, what she feels-- this is a human need. Her privillege should not give you or any other well-meaning individual license to rob her of that personal, her-reality-specific space.
Another video could be her going into lifting marginalised voices along with hers.
Humam beings need to voice problems that pertain to them. She shouldnt be doomed to share her space in all instances where she talks about a class-wide issue.
I fuckin hate that. It's dehumanising. Just because she is privileged in other areas she is sentences to forfeit something intrinsic to unadulterated, personal human expression.
Im not white, but I hate it. So what if a white girl spends a video talking about white girl problems, THEY ARE PROBLEMS.
It's like... forced, if-not-done-shunned altruism.
Like, it's just as much of a problem if the issues of marginalised people dominate the conversation in a way that trivializes privilleged people's problems (depression, self-harm, whatever other serious shit).
White Western POVs have had a mixed influence on progress, though, whether we like it or not. That’s what makes her statement profound.
I might not be desired commentator on this topic. I'm 22 yo boy from Poland, and here there are serious problems with toxic masculinity and feminism as well. But firstly I'd like to thank you for this video bc I was a little bit lost in my beliefs before it bc I feel feminism is right but recent personal experiences created a question if feminism is the way to it's goals. For you my dear reader, I'd like to present myself beyond dichotomies such as men and women. I don't have good relationship with my parents. Mostly because of my mother calling me names at first but it was a team effort really. Then elements of physical violence appeared when I would switch off my emotions and didn't show that I'm properly hurt by words. I know this is heavy stuff and I'm not trying to have your empathy there I promise. Then when I finally had enough of it I tried to physically drive them away from me. I'm not without a sin there as well I fell into light alcohol addiction for awhile then. But my tryings lead to them deeming me aggressive and I fled the house at that point. I know I'm venting too much. But in whole hatred especially towards my mother, i found shelter in my friends. One of them was a girl that knowing my unstable financial situation decided to live with me. She's very passionate feminist. Living mostly by words of old school American ones. I helped her getting illegal abortion that is a thing in my country and at the end of our living together she fell a victim of a r@pe, but at that time i was mostly away and she had a boyfriend so I couldn't help much apart being a very poor mental support and I felt very bad about it. So two simple paths that could get me to either hatred of all women or allying self to them collided and with making peace with my past I choose the later. I met my friend couple of weeks ago and she declared that she went to feminist support group and she was terrified of worsening of problems. Of course I was aware of problems with men even before seeing clubs infested with women scared of dancing alone. And here in Poland there are serious amount of statutory probles as well. Of the top of my head, hidden r@pe apologetic culture or catholic church implemented and well cared for patriarchy that is getting worse each day or progressive criminalization of antyconception. It's getting really scary in here and people who are looking for guidance especially in the west are either getting so radicalized by anger, of course in the way of the western west that has same problems but in different scales, that even someone as me who wants the change is scared of them and more often than not is called being worse somehow. That's why I don't agree that radicalization is the way forward. I glaze with admiration on Scandinavian countries for their social democracy. Because right now politics here are as follows. More and more oligarchical right wing that people are getting tired of. More centrist left wing that don't know that they are centrist and are in disarray. Non existent left that tries to be every leftists as it could be which even leftists are laughing of. And new right describing self as liberals and being prognose to be very successful in next elections with promises of unbreakable state marriages apparently. And in light of that radicalization of feminism is getting more and more enemies scared of it. Going back to the video. I agree with the statement that feminism being cultural currency was an awful degradation of an valuable idea. But watching in real time defemetion trail of Johnny Depp v Amber Heard was an example of that cultural currency being exposed rather than anything else. Because Amber Heard wasn't a victim. In a hardline feminist movement there is a lot of hatred toward men. And this sword usually doesn't care what it cuts. It's role is to cut but you need to start talking about taking scalpel instead because as a women you are not alone in that fight in this new millennium. As a person who grew up in post Soviet county I need to stop for a second at the question "is the ability to choose always liberating?" and add to yours warning my exercise special caution at that question because both yes and no might be terrible in consequences. At last I want to propose to all of you that red through all of this comment to think what could be also supported by a feminist movement like public transportation was given as an example in the video. Would for example women profited from supporting men's mental health organization? We live in connected world in which one movement share roots of problems with other movements. And please, don't look only for enemies.
I think an aspect of the downfall of feminism is that whenever i have personally talked to feminists about the finer points and genuinely want to learn more, the debates reduce to ad hominin attacks such as you're misogynistic , youre a man and you will never understand. These statements totally alienate men from even gaining an insight into said womans beliefs and experiences. Additionally there are so many factions within feminism that quite frankly its alot for the average person to take in and let alone understand. I think in general the echo chambers on the internet have destroyed civilized debate. Im not optimistic
I love how in your vids you bring up themes that you researched in previous ones. I feel like a detective spotting those
Oh so happy you noticed!!
SO thankful for all your videos, ive been thinking about this topic so much and it is AMAZING to see u sharing your thoughts about it
I wrote a long ass paragraph to comment till half of the video than I decided to finish first, after that you pointed all the things i wanted to add. This video made me swim in emotional waves.
Great video, put words to many things I had felt, but not fully conceptualized.
tbh it pisses me off that the most annoyed people are (well who did your questions lol) with modern day feminism is oh but what about the men.
Why is that surprising? A lot of men feel like they are being marginalized by society, so if a group you perceive as priviliged is fighting for even more rights, it's logical that you then ask when they are going to fight for your rights as well.
@@djarogames I have a couple questions: Why do men feel they are marginalized by society? And, why do they perceive women as privileged?
@@fish-fy5sh Because men are more likely to be victims of violence, more likely to be shot by police, more likely to die in the workplace, more likely to go to prison, more likely to commit suicide, less likely to be accepted into college, and a lot of other things. And while all of that is happening, there is a constant push to fix the few remaining issues women have like jobs in STEM and stuff like that, while all the issues men have are given 0 attention.
@@djarogames because women have their own issues. Women are more likely to be victims of sexual violence. Women are more at risk of becoming destitute. Women on average earn less money and have fewer opportunities for career progression. Women face much more hostility in the workplace, especially if it’s military-based, tech-based or blue-collar based. To the point where women are so often treated badly in blue collar industries that they rather leave, even if they enjoy their work. Women in the military face a staggering risk of being sexually assaulted and their higher-ups will cover up the crime. Women are more likely to be victims of abuse of all kinds. Women in almost all countries can’t leave their house after sunset. Some places women can’t leave without a man at all. Women are more likely to be murdered, many mass shooters and killers tend to target women more . Women in marriages tend to have decreased leisure time while men tend to have theirs increased. Men have problems to deal with but women are punished simply for their existence. There’s so much stuff we have to deal with on our own first.
@@HerbeyStudies I almost feel sorry for you for how brainwashed you are. But then again, it was your choice to consume propoganda and believe it.
"too focused on identity politics and not on class" is such an amazing statement. It's incredibly tragic to see this nonsensical usage of identity being so mainstream that these people do not see the massive contradiction they are saying.
They mean that the average woman who identifies as a feminist, centers most of her activism or advocation probubly around trans rights activism. Pronouns in her bio, defending transwomen's participation in sports, saying you have to be open to dating transpeople, otherwise you're transphobic etc.
LOL I "probably" doubt the regular feminist is a known defender of people like me, but odd you went right to that. Even so, that's immaterial, it's a nonsensical position because ignoring the link between class and identity is terrible, no matter how you try to reason it.
Before we dismantle patriarchy because its not possible
We need to dismantle misandry caused by feminism which nobody questions and opress men when it does not suit their narrative thats why men are becoming weaker and will not be able to sustain the society with help of weaker males and it will collapse
That's activism as a whole, sadly. It has been hijacked by grifters and identitarian demons.
its the same shit . group, Community,gender,class, race its always the socialist Ideology in putting individualists into convient boxes and of course the solution isnt discourae between individualists but instead the state to make the choice and anyone who is against the state is of course an enemy of the group,class,gender,race pr Community
I *was* a choice feminist because 'supporting women to make whatever choice they want' sounds fantastic on paper, but in actuality, choice feminism fails to ask WHY those choices are made in the first place. Like say a woman chooses to be a sex worker, is it *really* empowering if she is using sex work as a last resort to pay her bills? Is it empowering to risk her safety and mental wellbeing which are harmed by the audience she works for?? Choice feminism lacks nuance, it's a fluffy, cutesy type of feminism that can harm people.
God this was good! Thank you! Hope to show this to my daughter in the hope we can discuss it further.
I’ve been looking forward to this literally all day. Fantastic, thank you for your work.
I want to share my experience there as I’m from Russia and male and female society mostly disagree with feminists movement there. The radical representation on governmental channels and the deep rooted patriarchy made all feminists look like freaks, even women think so. Of course that’s because governmental propaganda and historical facts but still, I’m very proud of our fem community, it is struggling with so many issues, so I guess that if western feminism has some issues now with different ideas, our feminism is not so developed and on the way to help women to get their rights, even these small things like possibility to work as some professionals such as train driver etc
@A Zee I’m glad to
hear that you now think another way! There, in Russia, there are many liberal and progressive young people including feminists and anti-war protesters. Of course, we’re not much seen behind the propaganda but still we’re here and don’t stop fighting for peace and equality☮️
.... Western feminism is being talked about . Don't derail important conversations with your out of context situation. 😂😂😂
When you have honor-killings and gay unaliving camps and terribly normative home violence, there’s a lot of sense to promote feminist movement. We as a country are generally stuck somewhere in the second wave. The twаt above, however, is right. The western feminist mainstream (and terminally online freaks/third wave importers like our Nixel Pixel and detached urbanized grass-eating intellectual elite) generally won all the battles that were needed to be won to establish comfortable and humane living baseline for your average normie that wants options, but generally would appreciate to settle married with kids by the ripe age of fourty. They act in a safe and privileged environment of countries with a rule of law rather than might makes right.
Honestly this just video comes across as young people who haven't had the opportunity to encounter systemic inequality in the West arguing that women are no longer oppressed we can stop now. Women are very much still on an unequal footing compared to men here in the west, but as each new generation grows up there will always be young people wondering "Isn't sexism over?" "Isn't racism over?" "Isn't xenophobia over?" Young people will always be skeptical of whether all the bad things aren't in the past because they grow up being in school systems that ask them to factory churn out academic work, and they won't be thrown to the wolves or see this happen to others until they're adults. TLDR; We Still Need Feminism
@@minieyke how are women oppressed?
I found your channel today, and this is the second video I’m watching! I’m really enjoying your content.
Argh, I’m always late to complete forms like the one you mentioned at the beginning of the video 😢 I’ll tick the bell box so I don’t miss the opportunity in the future.
Hi Alice, I’m from Mexico and while I can understand English, not everybody can, I shared the video bc I find really interesting what you talk about and love your social commentaries but a few of my friends sent me messages saying they want to see your videos but they don’t have subtitles in Spanish, and while it’s not your obligation I do feel that this important topics could have a broader outreach if they where accesible to more ranges of ppl. Love.
Superb video. The word “feminist”, I’m constantly learning, has dynamic meanings around the world complimented with changing cultural contexts. And that’s why we’re always going to be in the journey of learning and unlearning as we go, because there will be new waves and deeper issues coming to the fore as years pass. Can’t wait for the next video.
your videos are wonderful, thoughtful, interesting, and thought-provoking. thank you for always encouraging discourse and education :)
Lots of things to think about, thanks for the video 😌
I like this video very much. I am in 30s and when I was in my 20s I considered myself very feminist and joined a "club". I was there to defend structural changes and rights, but very soon I was rejected by my peers because I had "not a single female friend". It was true in that moment but it shocked me how judgemental were this people with me. I just had lots of guys as friends because I used to ride a motorbike and well, it becomes just natural. Lots of women ride motorbikes now but then in a small town wasn't the norm. I was expulsed from the club (not very kindly) because they considered I couldn't understand the problems of femininity and women and I wasn't enough at home to understand the oppression. It was heartbreaking, this anti-male attitude and moreover to consider me non femenine. What is really feminity? Now I understand they were pretty posh and white feminist as you described while me I just grew up in a farm, working a lot with my father and I was a "tomboy". Now, I consider myself a wise feminist let's say, but I find this video very useful to understand that some feminist circles could be not very well oriented. We don't need to reject feminist because that but to search wiser approach, more inclusive, considering all kind of women, not only the models that market offers.
Growing up as a boy in a feminist house hold you don't want to know the level of hypocrisy and just vile condemnation of men I've seen just as a boy it was aweful feminists are just misandrists they disguise it better thats it
Wise feminist is an oxymoron
How about working class men and boys, will it ever be able to include that
"Can a stay at home mom have a fulfilling life?" How exactly are you defining "stay at home?" My own mom has always taken primary care of us while our dad worked out of the house, but she's also been the choir director, occasional organist, and general music director at a local church for over 20 years. Do her modest income stream and 2-4 hours of paid, out-of-the-house work per week disqualify her from the "stay at home mom" category? What about her regular visits with her friends? Her community involvement? Her on-and-off paid lessons for local kids? She seems content, but even if she isn't can you really say she would be if she had a "career?" Given her interests, her personality, and her lack of a college degree, it's easier to imagine she's happier where she is than she would be if she'd taken other options available to her. And she's already co-written a book about one of her passions, and is considering writing another by herself!
And what about women who want to be mothers, but can't get an out-of-the-house job? A combination of disability and injuries has kept my sister from ever staying very long at a job or college, but she and her husband now both work from home while sharing responsibility for their new first child, although only her husband has occasional out-of-the-house working hours. Would you argue that disabled women who can't hold down careers are doomed to unfulfilling lives, whether or not they have children?
I never plan on being a mom, let alone a stay at home one, but given the option, I would prefer to have a job that doesn't require me to be at the same place for 40 hours a week, so I could keep up my income while traveling, moving about town, and yes, staying in the comfort of my home (which I nurture many fantasies about). And I want to develop my housekeeping skills, because chances are, I'm going to be looking after my own home. Not leaving it to a spouse (who would have to keep house if I didn't), because I don't intend to get married.
In short, do we consider a(n out-of-the-house) career to be the true path to fulfillment?
Sorry for the meandering and anecdotal contribution. Such is the nature of the human condition, I guess.
I think fulfillment is about having options and community. Your mom has a community which minimizes the struggles a lot SAHM have. Community cushions the lack of options we have and as society becomes more individualist we’re losing that. If she is fulfilled, how much more fulfilled would she be if she had the option to try different things outside of the house too with that same community? Even if she hated a career, the option to explore should be accessible. We all should be to be able to explore options without being forced into a role. For the most part, women are more easily put into these roles. I know lots of women would prefer being at home with their kids and that’s absolutely understandable, but how many women choose that because that is their only option?
If disabled women had access to financial assistance (real assistance not the insulting amount the US gives out) and laws that were actually focused on accommodating disabilities, ones that allowed more people to work from home, or more paid off days and sick time, that provided free healthcare and education, at your own pace degrees, and livable wages for everybody, I’m sure your sister would be more fulfilled overall but definitely as a SAHM.
I genuinely don’t think anyone can be truly fulfilled in a capitalistic society, our governments do very little to cushion the blows to its people and it’s even harder on marginalized folks. We don’t have real options (stay at home or go broke for childcare/ struggle through chronic pain or rest but have no access to capital). Upper class SAHM may have access to more help, but there’s still the risk of being financially abused. I wonder in our society if it possible to be fulfilled without access to our own money?
Your mom definitely seems to have had a fulfilling and interesting life as a SAHM! In the Feminine Mystique though Betty Friedman mostly spoke to white, middle class women who felt constrained in their lives and had no option BUT to be a SAHM though. Taking care of children can be incredibly taxing, and I imagine at the time of the book's writing most husbands probably didn't give a damn about helping their wives. The physical and mental toll could be too much for her to engage in meaningful activities she wants to be involved in such as your mom engaged in. Or a woman at that time might have wanted to pursue interests outside what was deemed socially acceptable.
I do agree with you that the idea of working outside the home as a pathway to fulfilment is highkey a hoax though. It used to be that in the past one person's salary was enough to sustain a household (at least in most developing countries, and in the post-WW2 US and Western European economies, thought there has always been those who struggled even then). But now many can barely get by even on a dual-income. Who is doing domestic work? Mostly women after they come home from work OR women from low income countries who more privileged women outsource the job to. The problem is domestic work is not valued in society, and its individualised into private households. The demeaning of housework also cant be delinked from the devaluation of "feminine" spheres, in fact, the hard delineation of "outside' and "inside" work in the first place came about with the industrial revolution and development of capitalism (in Europe at least).
@@Bri-ns5rm You don't have to work outside the home to be fulfilled. You don't have to work at all to be fulfilled.
@@lisah8438 what do you need?
@@Naomi-fb1ej So would you argue that this is a feminist issue that's "solved"? Or maybe even... reversed? Do us ladies ever get to call a win, even in a particular geographic region? I would argue no girl born today in America is ever going to feel like being a stay a home mom is her only option. Even the FLDS and Amish girls see what goes on outside. I was raised in a fundie cult and as a little kid laughed at the idea that I wouldn't have a job and would just get married right away.
Well I've had my job, senior AND engineer in the title, great income, blah blah and I cannot WAIT to be a SAHM. It sounds SO FUN. I really enjoy taking care of my home and partner and pets and I wish I could give all that even more of my time. I like being in control of organizing a small team of people. I am really blessed to be in a position where that can be a reality one day soon. Working a day job is no more fulfilling than being a gear in a big machine. It's not 0% fulfilling, but there are about a million things I'd rather be doing. Is celebrating what I actually feel is liberation from my day job to do what I love (taking care of my family) incompatible with feminism?
I also think it's interesting you say domestic work is not valued. In my social circles it's seen as an incredible talent, especially in an era of convenience where developing these skills no longer seems like the norm. The number of people who don't know how to cook a meal for instance. Running a household takes smarts and skills of huge breadth, not to mention stamina. I would say during my lifetime it went from being seen as ordinary to extraordinary, because culture swung so far the other direction and basically necessitated women get jobs. Working full time as a young adult and managing a household *well* all on your own is HARD! Now it's almost no longer an option to be a SAHM for a lot of women--you have to work!
this is a great video alice, sad i didnt see it sooner
Incredible video, I was hooked really quick and came out learning a lot, even though it only scratches the surface. I'd say this would be a good video to kinda show to people to learn about modern feminism with some history to show how it got here.
Crazy!
I read simone de beauvoir in high school and how women were treated before feminism was abhorrent. people have no idea. idiots!
and it got better with a fight, not with please and thank you.
Well said. I don’t think modern women have any idea how much feminism made a difference in how they navigate their lives (both in private and in public). They only know a life post-feminism. It’s interesting.
@@LoneWulf278
and men!
men saying feminism did more harm don‘t know that without it, their sisters, daughters, couldn‘t chose their clothes, husbands, or vote. they would see their fathers beating up their mothers and society would congratulate them.
@Unknown
how/why was she crazy?
@Unknown
I wouldnt ask if I wouldnt need to hear it from you…
They take it for granted.They wouldn't even be expressing their views on social media were it not for feminism.
There is one thing I so want them to do for women: please, please include more slots in women's toilets. The contrast between men's toilets' waiting line and the women's could be so ridiculous I don't understand why nobody is doing anything about it
Plus they are often too small to change period products comfortably, have no place to put your bag onto and missing options for mothers with babies in strollers
I've been to bathroom stalls with no appropiate hooks to hang my bag on. 😑 We need better installations overall, toilets in older buildings haven't been built properly.
you worry about hooks? lady you are lucky that the toilet seat is still working🤣 and not someone has pissed all over or missed the toilet by shitting
Thank God somebody said it!
I’ve always just thought it was cause men are generally faster getting in and out 😅
excellente vidéo, c'est très intéressant de voir les choses posées de manière succinte !!
I think this was your best video so far. Great job!
I will say as a sex worker who left a 2 year abusive relationship, the promise of marriage or a relationship is strong for many. And our society views women as fulfilled and saved if they get a man. Many sex workers give up their job, dreams, and everything to gain societal acceptance. Men justify violence based on our past. Many of us internalize this hate. And our society’s hatred of us keeps us in these relationships longer. Domestic violence shelters treat us differently and we have less resources because of our job. We are considered trafficking victims but that doesn’t give us resources or real respect. We deserve safe work places, laws that allow us to protect ourselves, free college, and healthcare so we can have other options. Otherwise the reality is that we’re mostly trapped and vulnerable to violence with a public that doesn’t care.
"We deserve safe work places, laws that allow us to protect ourselves, free college, and healthcare so we can have other options."
Dignity and true freedom enabled by access to the means of living your life as you see fit. I couldn't agree more.
Hell yes.
Yes! You keep trying to explain this to choice feminists but they just ignore all of it.
Past truly matters for most men... It's just how they were programmed to be in natures perspective.... As the famous saying a woman looks up to a mans future & the man looks upto her past...
your "job" literally is for the pleasure men by the value only being your body
I think it's possible to not be judgemental with any women (a thing I try to do because the women's lives are pretty complicated and many women are forced to be in the places they are. Many times there is no choice to judge because they have no choice!) while also evaluating how liberating for women certain life choices or ways of thinking are.
I won't judge an individual woman for choosing to be a housewife, totally fine choice to make, but I will talk about how many women are forced to do those care tasks that are basically lots of hours of unpaid labour and a life as second class citizens. I will talk how that arangement keeps men in the public sphere gaining power and chasing their ambitions, while many women are relegated to a private sphere and having to make the most sacrifices in their careers.
The narcissism in the comment is staggering, you say ” she choose to be a housewife ” and also say ” she was forced ” are women capable of any accountability? Or modern women some incompetent grown children? How’s women doing household chores is UNPAID WORK? How’s her rent and all the financial needs are being paid? So HIS contribution to PROVIDE is dismissed but her contribution of chores is UNPAID work? How self absorbed someone should be to spew this
@@kingkohli4952 they are delusional, that’s why a lot of people are tired of these feminist,her comment sound so absurd but not surprising , also women like her need to realise housewife will always exist ,that’s how naturally humans were since the beginning of humanity ,in fact if something catastrophic happen like world war the equality will simple disappear,and men and women will return to their gender role , the only reason why we are not following the gender roles is because we are living in a relative safe time probably the safest time in history which it is in some a way a good thing since it’s being around 70 years since the last world war broke out .Btw I’m a someone that believes men and women should have equal opportunities .
@@omzy8700 exactly there’s no women in Afghanistan saying they are strong and independent and don’t need no man, equality is gone once women have to risk their lives.
These women whine about MEN oppressed women by not respecting their role as housewife but how are these women women any different? They are dismissing or discounting the husband contribution to PROVIDE for the entire family. Yes being a housewife is difficult for first 4 years of child, after that it’s not even remotely close to PROVIDING for entire family. And MEN don’t have choice to stay home as well? Men are expected to provide but it’s only outrageous if women are expected to be the primary care taker. This victim mentality and contact whining is the one no one respect these people. And it’s never about moaning about just women responsibilities but almost every time these kinds of women downplay men contribution. In short these women are just lazy and incompetent they don’t want to put in work and don’t acknowledge their partners contribution.
In this case, Husband contributed by PROVIDING for the household. Wife contributed by TAKING CARE the household.
If wife contribution consider as unpaid labour, then what is the husband contribution consider as?
@@mariak4311 ohh MEN SHOULD PROVIDE so any of husband contribution is discounted and only HER contribution COUNTS. If a stay at home MOm have this mindset, I blame the husband for marrying a lazy,incompetent grown child .
We have come from MEN not respecting WOMEN contribution of taking care of household to Now WOMEN dismissing MEN contribution.
I loved this video. So many well thought out and provoking points. The one thing I will add is my opinion about homemakers and stay at home moms. I think it’s a really blanket statement obviously to say that stay at home moms cannot live fulfilling lives but being a stay at home mom/ housewife is not a woman’s entire identity, just as her career isn’t. I think this is much of the issue, many people think about this topic in black and white. When women started working, there was an outcry about how women were abandoning their children for work but there can be so many variations of time management that allow for a woman to organize her life in a way that benefits her and her children if she chooses to work. And in that same vein, women who choose to be stay at home moms are not restricted to just being that. Stay at home moms have resources to have hobbies, part time jobs, friends, community, etc. I think women are capable of living fulfilling lives if they are the ones making the decisions about their lives. there are many SAHM’s and housewives that are completely fulfilled and content because that is what she likes and wants to do! Women are complex and dynamic people and we all want and like different things. One of my biggest issues with feminism is the need to critique other women for their personal choices, and people roping that into them being anti feminist. The whole point of feminism is women making choices for themselves, and that includes stay at home moms ❤
Saw the title and thought it was going to be click-bait but it is actually a very thought-provoking video essay!
Amazing work! It's always a challenge to talk about feminism in a critical way without getting too caught up in our own opinions. I think you presented several points of views with mastery, while also getting your point across. I'm excited to see what the future videos will hold! :)
Great video! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the topic, some resonated with me.
I don't know if anyone cares about my views, but as a Bi-men who is still a feminist, allbeit a more dampened and less enthusiastic one. It was the demonization of men that kinda got me tired. Hearing all my feminist friends say things like; "I hate men" (while laughing), "all men are rapists", "you can't have an opinion on abortion you can only support it" (I even do support late stage btw) made me feel like I was not welcome there. And then I saw some of these friends just leave all that for dating guys, and I saw others judging and telling people how to be gay (you can't be a liberal Democrat if you're gay) or just beeing anti-semitic (basing it on the "all men are rapists" idea). I don't know, it was just too toxic (internet and friends) and I kinda got tired with it...
This was a great video!!!
I think homemaking and the duties that come with being traditional housewives, allow us to organize our life. Through what I've observed, the housekeeping and the life-maintenance forced upon women in the past IS important, it is a real and very important topic of education that can teach basic life skills -- and it's not exclusively for women. There are stay at home fathers and they can find joy in house work like some women do, because it's not about gender but about how it makes us better member of society.
I like to imagine a world where everyone wants to learn how to be a homemaker and inspired to improve their home and personal life, but i don't think it is very productive, or helpful, if one gender group focuses on only that. If we look at older women who have been stay-at-home, once they are older, they tend to always have a source where they can express the bottled-up creativity and passions that they've had to conform to, like the limited home-oriented projects (i.e., OCD-level kitchen organization, color-coded manual guides for all electronics). Because they've conformed to their expected role, they limit how they can express themselves. Some may excel in these mundane hobbies and be empowered by them, while those who refuse to conform are torn down with society's disapproval.
When people are isolated from the real world, from the diverse experiences of life and forced to stay in their bubble and in their place, the human brain tries to cope and compensate by developing neurotic behavior and personality disorders. I believe all genders should be empowered to learn about housekeeping and to be passionate about being a caregiver who takes care of their family, but no one has to stop there.
I agree, but I think the main problem people/feminists have with "traditional housewives" is not so much the actual homemaking activities they engage in but the fact that many (not all, I know there are always exceptions) lack financial independence (since their labour at home isn't compensated, at least not financially) and are out of touch with the workforce, which may make it hard for them to find employment again should they ever wish to do so. Which creates risk of being unable to leave if they want a divorce or are being abused bc of the financial dependence on the spouse. This might be a problem for stay at home husbands as well but I guess people don't mention that as much since it historically hasn't been a problem on a large scale
Before we dismantle patriarchy because its not possible
We need to dismantle misandry caused by feminism which nobody questions and opress men when it does not suit their narrative thats why men are becoming weaker and will not be able to sustain the society with help of weaker males and it will collapse
I’ve yet to meet a man, at least a heterosexual one, who is as good at making a house a home as a woman. Walk into any house and you can instantly tell if a woman lives there or not.
@@StoutProper Oof, then I guess I'm a man, and a male friend of me a woman😅 I'm so bad at that, while he has his carpets and scented candles everywhere. He's straight btw.
You would like University of California at Santa Cruz, California. It’s a feminist and lesbian bastion. They congregate there.
Newly (and voluntarily) pregnant for the first time has me questioning my core beliefs as a feminist. There is so much wrapped up in that statement that I don't have time to write it all here. In summary, I am a former college feminist activist, have been raised with feminist ideals my whole life, have a masters degree, and a satisfying career. And now that I'm expecting my first child, I have this anger because I feel like I don't have the choice to be a stay-at-home-mom (even for just a couple years) because we couldn't afford it. I am firmly in the camp that feminism has done more good than harm. But I'm struggling with how many issues we haven't successfully addressed in the U.S. that only effect people with uteruses and who can breastfeed. I can't trade that role with my husband. I suddenly feel very weary thinking about what the next couple of years holds for me and future baby.
Feminism is definitely not done in America. Where's the paid maternity leave? Where's health checkups and dental care for children? Where's employment protection for pregnant people?
Women can barely even choose between career and motherhood because they can only afford to choose one of the options. Actually, many times they just don't have the option of motherhood because they, like men, are forced to work just to make rent. Women (and men) who want to start a family keep having to put it off because of how hard it is to afford anything these days, especially in the USA where maternity leave is an optional perk for companies to provide, not a protected worker's right. The desire to have a family is now seen as a burden that is CHOSEN like how one chooses a vacation, instead of a step in life that society must support in order for it to continue.
Without children we get less people, and with less people we get less taxpayers, and with less taxpayers we get less funding for public services. If men are seen as the default, then today the stereotypical default also means "don't have a family," which is unfair for everyone because many men, not just women, do want to have a family.
But identity politics has taken over the entire topic of women's rights, so instead of campaigning for anything that could materially benefit women and therefore society as a whole, we are instead stuck on debating whether it's misogynistic if a character in a video game wears a revealing outfit or if the word "female" is oppressive.
As an educated housewife, I worry for you. I stayed at home with 2 littles 13 months apart and I still resented my husband because I felt like I was working around the clock and he got to clock out. Can you work part time? The physical and mental toll plus the desire of NEEDING to be near your baby can make a calm loving woman rage with anger. Please make friends with women who have older children, because they’re guidance helped me identify the rage for what it was and let it pass. My true anger is with the lack of institutional support here in the USA where they talk a big game about family values and blah blah blah.
Feminism didn’t do shit, people who believed in it did.
Did those people accomplish what they set out to…?
Well, tbh it doesn’t look like it….but I’m happy for you and your spouse. Or as happy as I’m capable of being.
@@raapyna8544 wait until the freshly hatched zoomers go to college…then wait 2 more years after this red pill surge…
The problem in America is that everyone is the victim, the hero, and the oppressor. When it comes to others, people will be oppressive, when it comes to themselves they’re the victim, and when they react to problems violently or immaturely they’re the hero. Feminism is necessary for some and not seen as necessary for all. Which is the same reason that people of color have a problem of people caring. If it’s niche then I promise, there’s someone to love it and someone to hate it. That’s just life. Men have rights that should be looked at but if you go around yelling about men’s rights then most people think red pill. People in this country can’t even choose between TWO political parties. We all need help and healing. But everyone is too busy cherry picking whose issues matter the most. They all matter.
this is most smart comment ive seen from a fem in history...youre very close to the libertarian mindset, where everybody is free to pursuit happiness or have their addictions as long as they dont hurt others...a fat dude , a workholic, a cristian, a extreme sport advocate or an addict, they all are perfect libertarians as long as they do not harm others
Love your openminded way of handling this, I feel feminism have so many interpretations in modern society, I can agree completely with some versions of it, but some other seem ( in my opinion) counterproductive, like...theres a huge chunk of it online that is just about how perfect women are by default, and how everything they do, must be praised, takes away responsability off women completely about their feelings or actions ( which is the complete opossite of what being empowered should be? )
The thing about Jasmine is that she’s not submissive because she’s a woman fulfilling a gender role. She’s submissive because her partner has money. By her own admission, she wouldn’t be that way if her partner wasn’t wealthy. So, she’s not choosing to submit to HIM as a man. She’s more likely “choosing” to submit to the financial security that he is offering in exchange for her submission. That’s what people don’t want to talk about.
Yeah, why on Earth would women not want to talk about an informal system that uniquely benefits them? It's almost as if you point out a privilege people will get defensive.
@@Hooga89 Practically selling yourself is not a privilege. 😂
@@LoneWulf278 Being the equivalent of an aristocrat's wife for the rest of your life in exchange for sex a couple of times a week is definitely a privilege.
@@LoneWulf278 By your metric, doing anything for anyone to garner wealth/resources can be construed as "selling yourself" anyway. Nothing wrong with the lady taking advantage of her circumstances.
ikr🤣
Can we please also talk about some toxic class reductionist leftists who reduce everything to class and dismiss feminism or gay activism as if abolishing Capitalism would automatically end Patriarchy, homophobia or any other forms of opression?
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
they don’t necessarily mean that. its more in a sense that in capitalism we are only able to reach so far and do so much. fighting for general equality and then focusing on individual groups is more effective.
its like a sinking boat (system) that we have to fix (abolish capitalism) but getting the water out is also important yet not top priority (fighting for equality for lgbtq women minorities etc.) we will eventually sink if the problem isn’t fixed and i think we are globally at a point where things have to change on big scale - one example being this video
note - im socialist leaning anti capitalist so not necessarily a communist but i do see it as better alternative
class and wealth is a crucial element in power dynamics. It could not means the immediate end of patriarchy, homophobia or any other form of oppression but it would certainly give a massive boost
without poverty women are no longer reliant on romantic partners for their lively hood.
Many domestic issues can simply be solved with economic independence.
The abuse and violence inflicted on women by men would not be ended. Misogyny still exists under economic equality.
Yet, by empowering men and women to walk away from abuse without financial ruin would organically lead to liberation.
By creating wealth and class equality, the commanding “power” of the patriarchy and the coercive force of monogamy and marriage would die a slow death.
Of course, I only see this as a great way to improve the lives of woman - its not even close to ending the hate of women by men. Its probably as difficult to end hate of black people. Both of which have emerged outside western colonialisum around the world. Anti-woman and anti-blackness is at the heart of global culture and must be fought beyond simple sudo-Marxist Class reductionism
P L E A S E. I've heard very dumb people say that domestic violence wouldn't exist without capitalism because capitalism is what makes men violent >.
This video was very thought provoking for me, i turly love your channel 💖
I discovered ur channel this week and i watched some of ur videos i really like the way u present each subject without really being so subjective just subscribed ur probably gonna be one of my fav channels
I live in Romania an ex-communist country, I was born in the first years of Democracy but the old mentality still remains mostly in older generations. Thanks for this excellent essay, Alice, you really made me think about so many things. From my experience in Romania is hard to fight masculine submission because the biggest supporters are actually females (older in general) is like we are grown in this spirit of 'you must please your man'. I also think there is a lack of education on terms such as feminism. thanks for sharing, these videos are very educational and you are amazing!
Yes, I also think that for us in eastern europe, women were deeply indoctrinated into misogyny and into policing each other, into competing with and judging each other. All this does is serve men and the patriarchy, but we are taught that it serves us too and that "this is just how things are". It's frustrating and ridiculous.
im pretty late , but as an Romanian myself, i felt this to my core, especially how i was treated in my childhood by my familly and especially my grandmother to be as girly as possible, wearing dresses when i wanted pants, buying pink when i wanted blue, and for some reason trying to make me to brush my hair like 3 times a day wich caused me hair loss lmao, glad i can breathe more now as an adult and enjoy the clothes i actually want but to this day i cant escape my grandmother saying ''man this, man that, the man will '' bullshit lmao, kinda funny cuz the men in my familly are the most chill, its the women in it that have this certain thinking.
@@waterlily5901 I'm also from Romania. My sister a year ago was in an abusive relationship with the father of her kid. He wasn't physically violent but he was emotionally and mentally. She went through sooo many things because of him...like being cheated on, spending the money that he had on gambling, cigarettes, girls and his family while my sister barely had food in the house. Living in a small apartment with broken windows and old doors, without hot water, while having to carry wood to lit the fire in the stove (she was at the third floor by the way). And because the conditions were soo bad it wasn't worm enough for her and my nephew who was like 3 months at that time. He was jealous over small things. My sister wasn't allowed sometimes to go and buy something to eat because "she was cheating on him", she wasn't allowed to talk with me or my mother because "it's our fault why their relationship is not working". Having to be on the phone with him every single minute to make sure that she loves him and she is loyal. If she wasn't happy or full of energy while she was talking with him, he would start a fight or say that she is not thankful for the things that he does for her. Not buying basic things like diapers or milk for the kid (I don't know how it's called in English) because my sister wasn't able to breastfeed. My mother was the one buying food, things for the kid, clothes for her and the baby and wood for the fire. And he used to say that he is the man of the house and she needs to see that and learn her lesson, while asking my mother for money to buy more cigarettes. After almost a year they ended the relationship, but he tried to get back at her by saying that he changed and the second she refused he started to harass her and say that he is going to take her kid, or kill her and the kid, or set the house on fire and let us die like some rats, coming at night at our house saying that he just wants to talk. We called the police like three times and he was never arrested. They just had a conversation with him and that's it. And after sooooo many things and much more than that he is allowed to see the kid, he is allowed to take the kid at his house if he wants (that happened just once, I hope that never happens again) and he is not considered a danger to my sister and her son, because here boys will always be boys. My sister recently called a lady from the child protection services (I don't know if it's called like that) and told her that he keeps on calling her at any hour and try to convince her to get back together and if she doesn't he is going to take the kid from her and he uses the kid as an excuse to talk with her. And you know what that lady said? She said that this is love. My sister had to send her the messages between her and her ex and the lady was on her side after that.
Yeahhhhh....I'm sorry that I wrote so much, I don't even know that what I said is related with the video that much, but I wanted to point out how things like that are still normal this days. How women have to accept this kind of things, not complain, just obey, smile and be grateful that he is not beating you up or something like that
Also....after people from my village found out that my sister broke up with him, different alcoholic guys started to hit on her, make disgusting comments towards her and touch her. This started since she was really young, but now it's more scary because this are adults with anger issues, so she needs to be really careful what she does or what she says in front of them.
@@biancateslaru2656 oh my, i really fell bad for your sister, and i know it doesn't mean much from an stranger from the internet, but i wish her the best luck fighting for her and her child, i hope he gets away from her monster husband so she can feel a little bit safer, cases like this tough reminds me that often women without a supporting husband and a child in romania end up in prostitution, i kinda have that in my familly wich makes me feel many things, and quite sad as well that i know they want women doing rather prostitution than doing an job for money, so they delete all the job opportunities for them so they can only look at the prostitution as the ''way'' i'm from galati by the way! but right now its a ghost town with only older people, the younger ones *especially women, men tenagers tend to stay more * went to oher countries once they realized way to many things about romania.
@@waterlily5901 Hey :) thanks for jumping in and sharing...One good thing out of the bad can be that I feel we've trancended that mentality at least some of us. I do respect our ancestors but I feel its our job to evolve and expand the views moving forward
Hi Alice,
Thanks for the video. In relationship to the alternatives, I believe that looking at the experiences of the global south must be a key element in the shapping of a new cosmovision in the crisis we're currently going throught in regards to the "progress" narrative's death that co-exists with all the post-ism we're currently going through.
When it comes to asking the right questions, sadly this video-essays is brazilian -unless you would like to learn portuguese real quick- and just some of _her_ videos have subtitles, but Rita Von Hunty (she's a drag queen) says, going from the lessons of Paulo Freire, that asking the correct questions is the primary tool we have in the times we're going through...
I would love to see what you come up with next. I believe we're going through a significants crises, where we're runing out of ways to build significant meanings in a world very much in war with its own conception of reality and live itself. Videos that don't give answers, but instead point towards potential questions I hope can help us in the making of new meanings.
you worded sm of my own thoughts very well in this one video
I personally believe the podcast episode of Shan Broody was very helpful and insightful for men and women. Especially the talk about the topic of submission. Very helpful video.