Nobody's going to run a game perfect the first time out, especially when it's expecting you the GM to make calls on how appropriate things are. You're bumping up against what I'd consider my limit with total strangers but you're not running for total strangers so you've got some advantage there. The key is developing habits that make it less taxing to make a satisfying call in the moment, and the only thing that'll help you there is practice. And advice, which is just other people's practice. So here's some advice! CONSTRUCTING HAZARDS (chapter 10) No, each pirate should not be their own hazard. You know how a fight with a pirate crew looks in a movie, right? There's like one or two guys who have a big noteworthy gimmick, an arbitrary supply of pirate rabble, and one or two special tricks they're capable of. And you roll all that up into one big hazard which is probably going to operate on damage track rules, and think about what happens when each track drops. So, like, here's a crew led by a scarred veteran captain and his large, silent, and surprisingly quick bodyguard, for an encounter with a 12-box hazard: Captain Ironhook 🔳🔳 Faithful Gammage 🔳🔳🔳 The Rabble 🔳🔳🔳🔳🔳 Wait, They Have Snipers? 🔳🔳 And similarly to the players, your default position is that you can mark tracks as you please when your players succeed at attack rolls. So maybe you think of these boxes like this: Gammage will take blows for Ironhook when possible and probably resists some player damage. If Gammage drops first, Ironhook will have no qualms busting out his more indiscriminate (explosive/chemical) weaponry; if Ironhook drops first, Gammage goes berserk. While the rabble are around they get in everyone's way, making it easier for Ironhook, Gammage, and the snipers to do as they please. If the rabble drops first, the snipers also fall silent but they're charging something big. If the snipers drop first, some of the rabble will flee to try something desperate. RUNNING HAZARDS The key thing to keep in mind is that unlike tactical combat you don't get locking, blocking, and zones of control by default. Everything's fluid. So, like, don't narrate Captain Ironhook into a place where he gets grabbed and somebody can punch him as much as they want. In that position he's out of the fight; while he's up he can act freely. In the moment think less about cutting for difficulty and more about cutting for precision or impact. Somebody's doing a Grace Flourish to attack and that seems a little hinky? Don't just cut a die, think about where Flourish is strong. Could you dazzle everyone and come in at Ironhook from a blind angle, even with Gammage still trying to shield him? Cut Ironhook for precision. Is the arc of the fall going to burn itself into the minds of everyone in the mob, all "this could be you next"? Cut the rabble for impact. Framing it that way will take some of the edge off the cut. If you want to add something tactical to it a very easy way to do this is to "set for precision" or "set for impact". Volleyball, you know? Bump, set, spike? When somebody takes a focus action they don't do it to directly mark a hazard track but to set somebody else up to go harder or more precisely, and when they take the action they get a die of advantage and precision or impact for free. Like, at the start of the fight nobody at all knows where the snipers are to hit them, and you could cut for precision to try and hit them once yourself, or you could mark them out for whoever wants to go there. When you're thinking about total actions you might want to step things up slightly from what the book says, where a hazard makes a big move and a small move for every round of focus actions your crew takes against it. Since you've got a bigger crew, consider one big move, one small move, and one that flips between them, so that when every member of your six-player crew has taken two focus actions, your hazard has done three big things and three small things. Note that these are things explicitly to provoke reactions from your players. When your players try to do something and get less than a clean success, your hazard "gets to act for free" in that the way you describe the consequences of your roll can involve the hazard creating those consequences. IMPROVISING HAZARD ACTIONS At a loss for a big thing? Do a medium hit, do a weak area hit, do a weak hit that sets up an advantage. A small thing? Do a weak hit, slip a player advantage (either a set nobody's acted on or an advantage that wouldn't make sense in a different terrain zone), or try to "gain a charge" - basically start a little 2- or 3-box track and tick the final box along with a hit to do 2 extra damage per successful charge. So for example, when the rabble are trying to do something desperate: Ram Your Own Dang Ship 🔳🔳🔳 They can be trying to pack one of their pinnaces with explosives (one small thing to gain charge) and pilot it away into the wildsea at speed (a second small thing to gain charge) before ramping it to crash dangerously down on the battle (a big thing that's a weak area hit). If the player you've pegged for a reaction can disrupt loading the explosives and then take out the pilot or damage the pinnace, then the big crash still happens but it's only as dangerous as one of Captain Ironhook's regular grenade barrages.
I don’t even know what to say - you have expertly solved the problem I had at my table. I think the problem I am having is that I have no idea how to run Wildsea. This game is far more complex than I had thought… How long have you played/run the game? How many sessions did you play to learn how to do this? I am impressed.
@@FamilyTableTop In all fairness, I'm making it look easy, not least because nobody's getting bored waiting for me to come up with an answer. I've played this specific game a couple of times at cons, but I've been playing games like it for almost fifteen years now. The dice engine has big similarities to Blades in the Dark, damage and progress tracks have been a thing since at least Fate Core, and I first encountered the idea of damage checkpoints where the battle changes in Masks and Voidheart Symphony. By "games like it" I mean games with story-scoped rather than task-scoped resolution. Task-scoped is easy to explain since you're familiar with tactical miniatures games: the game is organized as a series of defined tasks that are performed in a specific order, and when you go to the dice you're finding out the specific results of some task. Make an attack roll to find out if the rocket salvo hits, make an armor roll to find out if it does damage. When the dice are rolling you're thinking about one specific action and the results tell you how that action goes. When the dice are rolling in a story-scoped game you're also still usually thinking about one specific action, but what the dice results tell you is how well the movie scene plays out when the camera's on you, which means that you can do the action successfully but it can play out to mixed or even disastrous results. So the context of the action also matters, both in terms of framing the desired results before the roll takes place, and in how the GM describes the resulting action. Task-scoped games can often be complicated to prep, because to put something in the game you need to give it all the hooks that the game's tasks will need to pull on. But they're not as complicated to run, since all you need to know is how the tasks go and then you can run them out in order. Story-scoped games can often be demanding to run, because you're left to make a lot of on-the-spot decisions. But they're not as complicated to prep, because mostly what you're doing is writing down things that would be cool to happen in the story. It may ultimately be that running this game for your entire group is going to be beyond where you are now. And if it is, then that's a real bummer, because the main reason I keep playing these games and what I get out of them is the satisfaction of making the game work, of solving the puzzle of framing and responding to player action with the tools the game gives me.
The older I get, the more I understand: time spent with family is a win. Your kids may not remember combat taking too long. They'll probably remember that their dad cared enough to constantly work towards spending quality time with them. In this way, the system is important, but not the Most Important™ element, right?
Stag's spot on. It's those moments that will come back to your kids decades from now and long after you have passed on. Also something I like to blather often enough when someone asks, "But how do you win?" "We win by playing; by having fun with our family and friends and sometimes strangers." Patience, sir, patience. Enough famous folks have said variations on: "Failing is really the only way we truly learn."
Take a break. I have made more mistakes than any DM I know. Take a break, and reflect on how you have run your games. When you are running week to week, it's like running on a treadmill, eventually your legs are going get sore, then you get off and your legs are wobbly. Take a break and get your legs stable again, and in the meantime think about what you did in your last game. This reflection will help you realize your DMing style more, what you did that you were like, "You know, that was pretty cool.", and others where you think back and think, "You know, I should have handled that differently.". These reflections will help you for next time, and you will get The Itch. It's a weird feeling, but it is a human creative thing where you feel the need to run the game. Then, run a game with the reflections you have made during your break and see how it goes. I will tell you, you will fail again. The life of being a DM is fraught with it, the key is to fail better next time. You'll hit a point where what you believe was a mistake, is actually unnoticeable to your players.
This is a really excited time for you, if you embrace it. You have learned what your players enjoy and what they do not enjoy, and that is AWESOME. Now is the time to take those two things and kitbash them together to make the game that YOU want to play. There is no reason that you could not take the setting for Wildsea and put them over the top of Shadowdark. Half the fun of this kitbashing is creating your own monsters and creatures. Dragonbane might have it's own setting, but that does not mean that it must be used! If your players enjoy Dragonbane's mechanics, lift them and put them in a Wildsea setting! Use the bestiary from Dragonbane as a template to craft your own creatures, monsters, NPCs, and even equipment. That Wildsea book is still a GOLD MINE of lore, setting, etc. There is no reason to jetison the entire game.
@@KraftyMattKraft excellent suggestions. I talked with my son and Marshel tonight. I think we all have agreed that we’re going to go back to Shadowdark and this time I’m going to do a proper primer, full hex, and I won’t baby my players… hopefully
I would suggest working on making Dragonbane more naturally narrative. Work in your own homebrew mechanic for those 'spotlight' moments that divides the creative moments. Maybe give them 2-3 options that a player must choose between, instead of infinite possibilities. Having 6 amateur players divide a narrative experience, with you still learning, will lead to some dead end moments. Which is fine, but you still need to make the best of these 'learning hiccups'. "Open-narrative" is much harder for kids and newbies to know when to take charge. Asking "...So what do you do?" can feel like pausing a fighting game and passing the controller and saying "Ok now do a combo while you explain what it does". I believe in you 💪 understanding what goes wrong is sometimes more important than doing things right at all.
Right, so for solutions to the problems you've listed, especially for Worldsea: -Observe "ruts" in their choices (repeated, min-maxy options). Then implement homebrew limits. EG 1 defenestration per combat (throwing an enemy out a window) or, every Hero must negotiate before any can do it again. -For those "random Skill" attempts, they're trying to exploit anything possible. A solution to this is an "ante" cost. Give them a +1 bonus the first time they use each skill in a session, then -1 each time after that. Make them use it to count. -Impliment "Really, though?" as a hard rule. If it's impractically risky or difficult, or they would never do that IRL, then it doesn't happen. -Saying "No." is a complete answer that can save you 5 minutes and define the setting. It also discourages them from "rules lawyering" options." -The "OK but that's a Bad Idea" Rule. Tell them 'sure but you'll probably fail and there will be obvious repercussions if so.' Maybe a 1/3 to succeed. To remove bad behaviour, limit the way those options can exploit things.
I find role-play heavy stuff to be a challenge when playing with my kids... They need action to maintain attention. I don't think I could have the patience to try out as many different systems as you do, at least not with my kids lol Oh, and I needed to add.. watching your videos and others helps keep me motivated. I would suggest if you're frustrated, go back to the system that worked best for your group as far as fun is considered.
I would definitely focus on playing one system that you have enjoyed using. Swapping systems frequently is exhausting, since you have to basically relearn and reteach the rules every time. On the subject of too much combat and not enough narrative. I think that sticking to one system is also super useful. If everyone knows the rules, you can move through combat faster and get to the narrative faster. Also I have found that when playing with kids, they tend to want to just fight, fight, fight. Itll take some time to guide them towards more narrative styles of play. You can also just mix and match systems and settings. Just use dragonbane with the wildsea setting. I would definitely recommend just running some pre-written adventures aswell. It will take a lot of the load off your back to create a whole new story. My personal favorite is Death, Frost, Doom.
Just like everything in life. You use failure as a learning tool. The only way you become better is by failure. In regards to your game, just combine the aspects of different games you like. If everyone likes Dragonbanes combat, then use that for combat. You addressed this later in the video and that sounds like the best option.
I think Wildsea can definitely do combat but you need multiple objectives if you want to spend time on it. Fight the pirates and protect your ship and try to disable their ship and rescue the hostage and try not to alert the opportunistic predators lurking in the waves. Also, consider other ways to hurt the pirates. Intimidation, attacking their fuel supply, wasting their ammo and energy by tanking a full force attack, breaking their group cohesion with a distraction. These things can do “damage” to their track, or give your allies advantages. Overall, give more things to do, and say yes more often. Also, since you won’t have a tactical grid, try to have zones. Above deck, below deck, in the trees, in the mouth of a whale, daringly balanced on the ropes above ship, etc.
Keep at it bud. Sounds like maybe you need to flesh out session expectations and also trying to balance out a new TTRPG system. In my experience you can do one or the other but if your trying to do both, that can get rough. You'll have uncertainty with the players about their characters and the session with how to resolve that with the system. My best 2 cents is there is never going to be a perfect system. I say keep the setting from the system you like but use the ttrpg that works best for you and your table.
I knew when I researched Wildsea it wouldn't be for me. A simple system I love has great books with quests and Map tiles for miniatures with a Huge bonus that the combat is really fast. This ttrpg is called: D100 Dungeon Mapping Game. The first book presents as a solo system but I've played it with other people and it went really well.
This reminds me a lot of when I tried to get D&D players to play Blades in the Dark. They loved the idea of the setting but the vague conversational nature of the system didn’t work well for them and I didn’t do a good enough job transitioning them. Savage Worlds is an excellent choice. If you find yourself feeling like it’s becoming work, don’t feel like you have to force it. 50 Fathoms may help with the pirate setting and ship combat.
It's been my thought for him from the beginning. I love it and it's the schizzle for a fast game with many people, some of whom may not even know the rules.
Yeah, I was going to suggest ICRPG too. You have experience with Shadow dark, so it will feel familiar. The GM advice is great. It has the looseness of Dragonbane. It is super adaptable so you could overlay it on the Wildsea setting.
I love ICRPG but a word of caution: the master edition feels like a beta version; a mishmash of related material that needs to go through a round of editing to make it streamlined. You can still very much play it, but you need to make some decisions before you start with regards to what from the book you'll be using.
So, my thoughts on this... 1. If you like the setting, try taking your son and maybe one of his friends and set the expectation that you want to figure out the system before the next game. This gives everyone the opportunity to expect a slower combat as you all look up and discuss the rules and then see how they play out without the stress of being on the spot with a table full of players looking to have a good time. Learning a new system is kind of like learning to drive stick-shift...it's going to take time and the more you can learn to use the clutch to stop and go without the stress of traffic behind you, the easier and more enjoyable it will be. 2. Savage Worlds absolutely could be used to run this setting...and it can create all the different races of the setting. I've converted a lot of game systems to Savage Worlds, but they have always been settings where the mechanics added nothing to the setting. If Wild Sea's mechanics seem tailor-made to enhance the setting, then I'd probably refer you to item 1 above. BUT if the enhancement is very minor...just convert the setting to Savage Worlds. 3. You could also run this setting with the Dragonbane rules...it may require a little more work and effort though. I will also add, Dragonbane doesn't have to be all about combat. In fact, I'd say, Dragonbane can be a very deadly system if the players don't play smart. My first foray into Dragonbane with experienced players resulted in a TPK. At the end of the day, you tried something new and it didn't work as you'd hoped. That doesn't mean it was a failure...it's only a failure if you didn't learn anything. Chances are, your players will give you a bit of grace, especially since it is a new system and you need to get a feel for everything. I'd probably say, give a few more sessions, but set the expectations with the players that it may go slower than desired as you try to learn the system. I think it's usually a good idea to try a new system 2 or 3 times before throwing in the towel, but that could just be me. 😀
That happens. You never know before you try. It's ok to try new things, any experience is experience, so it's fine. Finding the best system for you and your players is a hard task, I had the same issues as you. Just try on and on. The system doesn't matter so much, having a time with friends and family does. Talk to them, you're not alone in this )
How do you keep yourself feeling motivated when you feel hopeless? (Probably my favorite version of the question, so I'll answer based on this one.) When it comes tabletop roleplaying games, when I fail, I keep going based on the heading my players set for me. I take a lot of breaks, make sure I'm watered and I have the sleep, the rest, I need. Especially on weeks when the session is going to go hard. I do a lot of research for my sessions and I learned the hard way to rest more when I do. As well as on weeks when I double and triple check my prep. Just to be sure that if anything could spin out of control I have an idea of where that could go. After that though, I listen to them. They are my main guiding start as I'm navigating the game. They seek, I speak. They battle, I battle too. And afterwards I take those breaks. I watch a movie, play a game, read a book, and decompress as much as possible before bed. Then I start the process of prep the next day. Even though you are getting discouraged, I believe you are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. When you listed all the games you found the solution to playing for, I thought it was uplifting that you found those answers and recognized that you did. If you can find a solution for them, then you can for Wildsea. The best I can provide you on what to do, lacking reading the combat rules myself, is listen to your players and take the time to decompress after games. I'm the sort of person to keep reading the rules until I get it. A use the word in a sentence" type of guy. So I make examples for myself, and I like talking it through with other people too. Maybe try that. Walking one of your available players through an example of combat as the book describes it and having them help you? Like maybe your son or your wife, someone who can "translate it" into how you conceptualize things. People close to us have a way of knowing how to talk to us. And getting through to us what we have a hard time seeing or understanding where they do. And perhaps by having them read the rules or listening to the example it will click for them and they can help it click for you. Bottom line, failure is temporary, take a minute to yourself to rest and assess, then try again. Failure as a GM is like a low roll on the dice, we can get all the modifiers in the world but we can still roll low.
I suggest you watch a couple videos about 4D role playing. Make players stay in character, not ask mother may I questions, and you just describe what happens solves a lot of these problems. You guys will get to build an interesting world together, and the characters motivations will drive the game
Hwy, man. I really like your videos and I especially appreciate how open you are about your struggles at the table. If I were you I think I'd take a week or two off and then go back to Dragonbane, I think its pretty hard to beat for fast-paced, kid-friendly, tactical combat. For the record, it doesnt sound like youre failing to me. You seem to be really attuned to your players' experience, willing to experiment and improve, and you obviously care deeply about the game. Thats a winning combination in my eyes.
And don't despair. A year from now you'll look back and see each of these failures for what they really are: rungs on the ladder of your success. You've probably already climbed higher than you think!
I burned out on running my online game roughly a year ago. Then this past spring I left the live table group and haven’t been able to restart in either. I’m currently running the solo game Astroprisma for myself. I’m surprised at how much I’m enjoying it. It’s not quite the quality of a live table or even a virtual one, but it does scratch the itch while I’m waiting on the next chance to get back on the horse. My advice is it’s okay to take a break, but just be careful because the players might not always be there when you come back.
That’s exactly what I was thinking- and also why I don’t want to take a break… What went back in your campaign? When do you think you might be ready to start back up again?
3:44 - I've been playing TTRPGs, tabletop battles and LARPs etc. for 30 years, so I can say this with some authority: Of course it won't work; you're ramming 1 set of rules into another - and, more importantly, onto a pallette those rules aren't designed for. It won't work because *those rules are designed for that thing* Seems obvious to say, but too many people miss that rules aren't just their expressions; they also *are* the setting they run Too many times I've seen LARPs that have to "pause" to roll dice or draw cards or rock-paper-scissors... and then wonder why people say they're bored You've said before that you want to make your own system - then make *that system* - of course, rules can be "inspired by" - but aimply taking rules from 1 place and smashing them into another never, ever, ever works
If they’re still having fun and want to play it’s a success. If not maybe it’s not the right system. I’ve read some comments and agree that family time is a win. Maybe take a break and try again? Is there another person outside of your group that could run a game that you get to play in too? Try that?
I’m going to try to get back on the bike again - as the metaphor goes - I think I need to go back to a simple system that I am familiar with. Thank you for the encouragement- I really appreciate you.
You are experiencing "GM burn out". Leave the game for a month, take a break, go fishing on the weekend, just spend time away from the game, the internet should still be here when you return, and the table top games WILL still be there.
Really, you keep yourself motivated much in the same way you keep yourself motivated for anything else you do for fun (since the humans involved in the activity and the reason behind their involvement are the two constants). With that said, I think I am noticing a trend in these videos; you and your group and refining down the "how does our ideal game plays like" aspect of the group... which is something that definitely can take time! You could try another system, try a homebrew setting (you don't need nearly remotely as much as you think you need to start with a homebrew setting anyway!) or take a break for a bit and let the brain wander off in directions other than the problem (or ask someone else if they want to GM, too! Having player side experience helps a lot).
you can bridge the gap between tactical grid combat and theatre of mind with zone combat maps..It still allows some tactical aspects without getting too bogged down on counting squares. Maybe you already are aware of this but Ultimate Dungeon Terrain (UDT) has been something I enjoy
@@FamilyTableTop Dungeon craft has videos on it. It is a circular map that has 3 zones. The center is melee, the next one out is ranged, and far ranged. You can only fight enemies in your area and can only move one area per turn. It is fast and simple. More tactical than theater of the mind, less than a grid map.
Let's see if I can help a guy out here. First and foremost you're new to the hobby so just accept you'll make mistakes. When I say mistakes I say that in a very subjective way. Some sessions may seem like a failure to you but you find out the players loved it etc. Think of these as learning experiences and there will be plenty of those early on. There is no "right" way to play. If you and your table are having fun then it was a success. Relax a bit, its a game, some sessions will be better than others always. These are sometimes those things where the less you try the better things can be. As a DM/GM you not being tense or stressed about performing or providing a session actually can lead to it being less fun. The energy you bring to the table is important. Be upbeat, excited and happy. The real successes will mark themselves when the players keep talking about specific experiences and events years later. We had a really bad session about 10 years ago that we now talk about and laugh about because of how comically bad it was. Was it a failure? Hmm... Not so sure now! About the system to play, just poll your players, or if there is something you really want to play.. Make that impassioned speech why. Let your passion for that game bleed through.
This is how I stayed motivated before finding the system I prefer. I always considered my players and what each of them consistently enjoys, regardless of the character they’re playing. Are they always looking for exciting combat? Is one player focused on gaining power and loot? Maybe another treats every session like pure roleplay, negotiating and befriending everything. Whatever their preferences, I found a system that I, as the GM, was excited about, one that also offered rules to support what each player enjoyed. It's crucial to pick something you’re passionate about because your excitement will naturally spread throughout the game. The game I run isn’t for everyone-features like the sanity score may not be a fit for all players-but it does allow them to play out nearly any fantasy trope they’re interested in. That said, a game like Shadowdark has simple rules that could be easily adapted into different settings if all your players enjoy the mechanics. If you provide what each of your players like most I can also make some system recommendations.
Combat in Wildsea is quick and dirty, so the idea of structuring an entire session around one combat encounter is just dragging out combat too much. In this case, if you want it to last the whole session, you want to have to hunt the pirates down to their location to begin with, then have a small skirmish before something massive happens to disrupt the fight, at which point it becomes a chase and then a fight in an entirely different location. Asking this many players to individually try to figure out what to do might also be a bit much in their first session, I would have let them get comfortable in the system first before throwing them into such a chaotic situation. With an experienced group, I expect that the players would have probably naturally split into groups and pulled off coordinated actions together to achieve their goal, maybe by one group disabling the ship entirely while the other group focuses on breaking the pirates morale so they can take them in alive?
Also, it seems like you were being waaaaay too harsh about adding cut and not letting them use their skills. Grace and flourish absolutely sounds right for jumping down on an enemy, if anything having a height advantage would have given them, well, an advantage. They maybe could have described it more gracefully, but asking someone not to use flourish when it's probably their main combat skill just won't work, that's like telling a D&D player that they can't use dexterity. Asking to cut is something that you do if, say, the entire ship is at a 45 degree angle. Overall though, I think that you just need to slow right down. You're confusing things way too much by changing systems so readily and not learning the system fully before starting sessions, and you need to go more than one session before deciding to start changing fundamental rules, and certainly not do it mid-session. You had the same problem with Shadowdark, you never felt that you were really playing Shadowdark because you and the players hadn't really learnt what Shadowdark was beforehand. And now the same has happened with Wildsea. My best advice at this point is to stop playing TTRPGs for a few weeks, maybe go back to playing board games for a bit, or do some quizzes or something? Then you use that time as the GM to really read through a few systems, one by one, and really learn them and figure out which one you want to play AND can feel comfortable running. Watch some actual plays. There are Wildsea actual plays available that don't feature the creator that I've told you about before, (although just because someone's working for the publisher doesn't mean they're misrepresenting the game, that would be a weird marketing tactic).
Me again. Try again. As Gygax said in 1AD&D book, the rules are guidelines. You are the GM. Do what you think is best. Change rules if you need to. Sounds like your players are having fun still. Wish I could help you out more.
Short term adventures. It just IS a simple fix. One night, maybe two sessions, geared around some players background in some way. Players solve it and it's done. Can the adventures be strung together? Of course, but no big plots, just short term adventures.
An example. I'm running a Zobeck game. In Zobeck, kobolds are second-class citizens and were being blamed for a series of robberies. I bring up all of this because one the characters is a kobold. When he solved the problem, he got a thank you from local watch officials as well as reward money. Background adventure.@FamilyTableTop
I think it is useful to run one-shots of new systems. Just to make sure everyone is on board with the mechanics and it works for your group, before you switch your campaign. Try out several systems with one shots and see which your players (and you) like the best. Then a short arc to make sure everything keeps working on a longer timeframe and it is still fun. Then build a campaign.
Man! I was hoping you were going to tell me how to keep motivated. Joke's on me! As for my thoughts: I would take some time to come down, maybe play a boardgame next session, and definitely chat with your players about the best way to go forward. I like your idea about using the Wildsea setting with Savage Worlds rules. If you all like Savage Worlds, well it's meant to be hacked into new settings. I'm not familiar with Wildsea, but I know a lot of game mechanics will not work for all players, and hacking in something else is perfectly acceptable.
I just went through one of my darkest periods of "GM self doubt" a few weeks ago. I've GM'd for 45 years. It's part of being a GM. Felt gutted that of my 15 players only 2 or 3 seem really interested in the latest campaign. Feel like I misread my players so badly, thinking I was giving them what they wanted but most of them are just not engaged. I took time to rethink and refocus, which has helped. Sounds like you are doing the same and giving it a few days. My 2 cents: You played 1 combat as part of the campaign. It doesn't sound like you did a test run of the new system with the players. I think what's missing is a tutorial session where you set up 2 or 3 combats in a row -- not as part of the campaign but as "one off" tests -- each of which introduces elements of the new system gradually. This allows the players to try things out, ask questions, get used to the system, tell you what they like and don't like, all while not feeling like there are real consequences to their characters if they get something wrong. And you as a GM don't have to feel bad if the test falls flat. I have done test sessions like this every time I've changed editions of D&D and even when I introduce a major rule change to my homebrew D&D -- I always have a "test period" so the whole group can find out what we like or don't like about it and adjust accordingly.
I'd love to sit down with you to chat, but being on the other side of the world is problematic. So here are some random thoughts. First consider what your aim is as a GM. For me, I have the aim of my players having fun and wanting to come back and a running a game I like the theme of. Secondly I think the mistake you made here was just jumping fully into the system without having run a practice combat before jumping in both feet. For me, I like to try that kind of thing out before hand so when I get to the table I know it is going to work. Or at least I have watched a number of videos from different group running it. You are absolutely correct about needing to find a system that works and a setting that captures the interest. And I was thinking before you got there that Savage Worlds could be the answer. For the sake of the players you need to find something and give it a bit of a decent run. Running one session and dropping it will get tired after a bit, so take a pause and think about where your want to go, even if it means having a week off. Let me ask you this, why did you throw Shadow Dark away? Did the players and you like the system? Did you all like the setting? Was it just because of the lack of primer? If it was only the primer, why not go back to it? Or read the primer issue really a problem with the setting? If you all loved Dragonbane why not go there? If you live Wild Seas setting and they do too, I am sure Savage Worlds could help, but it will take some work for you to convert across. There are heaps of game systems out there, and all have their pros and cons, find what you and the players will mostly like and run with it. (You will note that I am deliberately not saying run the system that I run because it's the best - because the reason it's the best is because it is the best for my players and me, and no two tables are the same). I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Yeah, whenever Im learning a new game or rule subset, I grab my son, give him a character sheet and say "there are two pirates in front of you" and run the combat. Or spell battle, ship battle etc. It just helps to have a few quick reps. Im talking 10-15 mins worth then I can go back and look up rules I THOUGHT I understood but didn't under pressure.
@@obadiah_v let’s find a time to talk… maybe there is a time when our awake hours line up. I posted a discord server in the “About” area so maybe you could find me there. I agree with you about shadowdark - I talked with my son and friend from Thailand. We are going to start Shadowdark again, this time with a proper Primer and central theme and premise. I’d love to hear your thoughts about how to do it right.
Venting with other people is sure a thing that can help to get some of the stress out of one's system. Personally,I find combat in most the systems to be the horrible designed aspect. I have no experience with Wildsea, but from the little I know, I think that might be a great game for exploration, and not for combat. Same goes for Shadowdark. Maybe that is the issue, that you try to use these exploration games for combat heavy style, for which they are not really design. Savage Worlds might in that case indeed somewhat helpful. But the question is do you players actually want a combat heavy game, or could they imagine to play more of an exploration game? I think being the GM also is somewhat of a learning curve, not everything we see i other media works well in our hobby, combat with hordes of enemies is one such thing, that looks great on film, but there are very few systems that can do that justice. That is why more common in our hobby is to fight against dragons or giants or such single opponent. I run games for more than two decades, and honestly the only combat system that was fun and also could manage hordes of opponents was 4th edition of D&D, the system that many people will tell you is rather board gamey (eve though I had never issues to get role-play out of my players in that system). Maybe talk with the players (as part o session zero) what kind of game they want to have. Often people can express their interests by comparing what they want to TV shows or films, and if you understand that, then you could look for a system that captures that atmosphere and style. And you might be surprised what people want when they actually tell you and you do not presume to know them.
Hard agree. Part of the reason for starting a system like Wildsea was because the players kept avoiding combat in Shadowdark and wanted to keep everything as a pet. Changing system for that reason, only to start off the campaign by deciding you'll spend your whole time playing pirate hunters having combat encounters on the deck of a ship just seems like it's really confusing matters.
Forged in the Dark system certainly does not handle battles like a traditional TTRPG would - characters are usually above average person's level of competence, combat is handled in narrative instead of clear turns and more often than not quote "Losing is fun" rings true during a singular session. For that I recommend creating a villain or two, making a clock for them and area of influence where danger peeks and couple of officers - like that combat could have been with a left hand of BBEG's officer related with a fire thus most of their crew would handle flamethrowers or something emberlike. Next thing - PCs should easily handwave normal mates and only break a sweat with above mentioned left hand or important members of the crew - those would poses more than 1 HP and would be a main target. Like there's a group of normal pirate mates blocking the way? Roll dice, on 1 earn a wound one of y'all are surrounded , 2 everyone recieve 1 dmg and you are still pursued, above you kill/capture them with a Loss, benefit or not. Meanwhile you are taking the actions under fire, left hand commands the ship (ie. Takes action) and so on and so forth. Simply lacked a background (reason) why pirates are big deal or why they are there/why we are attacking them - and the scale was not set right. "Superheroes" vs "sea scum" instead of "superheroes" vs "main villain's sideckick" which have hostages so any wrong action is super super dire! There's a lot of good advice on such games all around the internet since FitD is quite popular like PbtA and "Forge " (idk about third one, I am listening to a hard polish accent saying english phrases with a forced English accent - quite hilarious) and additionally - Blades are quite boardgamey, so that's a plus for you... But the combat focuses more on the narrative stakes and consequences instead of just the swordplay.... To stay motivated I do enjoy the struggle - it's a constant combat with your own fears, weakness and aspects of running the game! And I do belive that if something does not kill me only makes me stronger since I can redo it but better :) And for above mentioned Blades in the Dark combat ask Marshall or just other players why do they think about being able to always beat down the pirates but the roll dictates if somethig horrible happens or not - like hostages get wounded and also they recive a major setback which will keep their character down for 5 sessions if not mended the session afterwards during some mission to do so (meanwhile evil will be doing their own thing). Have a great one, mate! Godspeed!
Hmm... towards the "dice cutting topic": I think not cutting any dice is the way to go here. Its not about winning the fight. These systems are more about letting players do the cool stuff they want to do and if they kill off all the pirates this way very quickly - great! I am sure they told a cool little story or scene that way, are happy about having more agency than normal and then as a GM you feel happy for your players... and move on to the next scene. Also a great thing to do as a GM: give the players problems where you do not know the solution to. Let them deal with a big kraken coming out of the water or shatter their boat and let them wash ashore on a lonely island with monsterous animals and a little cave where they can hide and are safe. Now players have to come up with a sensible explanation (that is probably NOT fighting, cause then they'll proably die), on how to get rid of the problem. And whatever stupid solution your players come up with, you just accept make them look cool, move on and drop the next disaster on them when time comes. So the best advice: be a fan of the players, make them look cool and remember: these games are no about "winning", they are about "exloring"
I agree you shouldn't cut dice unless it is really crazy sounding, because when you cut dice you take away the highest outcome. If you are cutting the dice you are reducing the chance of success by a greater probability than an extra dice gives. So you should either let your player throw all the dice they want (my suggestion) or don't let them roll as many.
don't worry, be happy - life of brian take this with a grain of salt as i have never touched that system, i would suggest you tailor your combats to something more simple, have them deal with one opponent per player (since i used to play a lot of gurps back in the day, it is a very rule heavy game from simple mechanics where a single combat between two characters could easily take up towards 8 hours) let the rest of the combat happen as a result of the players actions and story-tell it (i forget what the fancy pantsy word for it is) also, nothing wrong in taking the dragonbane or other rule systems and creatively mash them into the setting with a little love (or lots of wd40 and tape)
Two other systems that you can transplant the Wildsea setting into are Genesys and NEW from WOIN (What’s OLD is NEW). I would give NEW the advantage for switching right now because the custom dice Genesys uses are a bit hard/expensive to get ahold of right now.
I think the issue is your players aren’t mature enough players to be able to get interested in Wildsea. There is something to be said about a setting which the players can immediately relate to. That’s why fantasy is the most popular because players of all ages can “grok” it. They know how the universe works innately. I find this the same way in how fewer players (especially younger ones) can’t get into Sci-fi RPGs. My advice is to start with a bridging genre to slowly adapt them to a different non fantasy genre. I’d recommend trying Mutant Year Zero. It’s mutants. It’s post apocalyptic. It’s modern. Gritty yet still a bit heroic. If they take onto this then you can eventually try more wackier settings.
That’s a really good idea. …and I think you might be correct about the setting needing some fantasy to ground the games. I haven’t looked at or played Mutant Year Zero at all. Could you tell me a little more about the game? How does it play? It’s a free league game - does it use their D6 system?
There is a difference between mechanics and setting and theme. You need a mechanic that is fairly universal - it has to address talent, training, equipment, tactics, and luck. Talent is ability scores or bonuses, training is a skill level, equipment gives banes or bonuses, there is a bit to do with terrain, tactics is about what the players describe. The last element is a dice roll against some kind of difficulty number. Make the problem solving mechanic quick. Add opposed rolls, add task chains, and progressive difficulty with time constraints. The thing with skill based games is that they are often about a single class of character - like call of cthulhu, where everyone is an investigator. A Doctor, a scientist, a cop, and a hobo are all investigators and they all share the same pool of investigative skills. This doesn't mean that each PC doesn't have a role to play - like the heavy, the healer, the scientist, and the burgler - but these roles are not a professional expertise. If the characters are all wastelanders then this works, but if the party is designed around the concept of diversity of expertise and the experts get better with performance experience then have classes - this is what the fighter, the magic user, the cleric, and the thief are all about. In sword and sorcery the party has a problem and each expert uses their expertise to contribute to solving the problem. The problem with wastelanding is that you have to know as a player something about life after the end of the world as we know it, otherwise it is hard to solve problems. I play Traveller and I enjoy it because I know enought about science to solve problems with future science that doesn't exist.
Something to add to a science campaign is net running with cyber decks. This allows players to enter computer systems and holodecks to gain information with real consequences.
I think you have already found your system, Dragonbane. Just adapt the Wildsea setting to it and be happy. Personally, I do not like large groups; therefore, I limit my games to up to four players. Make it simple and easy for you and your players. In the end, having fun is the goal.
Dude! You and your players are not the problem. You guys like to play in a certain way. Go with that. Use the setting. Take all the inspiration and cool ideas from it, but use a system that works for your table. Keep it simple. Take the Wildsea setting and use the ShadowDark or Dragonbane rules. Do not let a system dictate your game or how you feel about your competence as a GM. Savage Worlds would be a great idea!
First thing I would suggest is just to calm down and take a moment. It's just a game and you are playing with family and friends... so even if it isn't perfect, it is still a positive interaction with people you care about. Second, maybe you are being harder on yourself than you need to be? I know I have hit many moments in GMing where I felt way worse about how a game went than any of the players. Sometimes, we GMs hold ourselves to a weird standard of "making things fun" for everyone and that gives us a skewed sense of how the game is going. Third thing, I think I would suggest you pick a single game and stick with it for a while. I have watched a few of your vids and you seem to have bounced from game to game looking for "that game" that will somehow make your table whole. Listening to you talk, I would suggest a game with pretty clear-cut, GM-driven mechanics for combat and skill resolution. Maybe Dragonbane or Savage Worlds as you mentioned in your video. Keep the back and forth, and the on-the-fly decision making to a minimum for something as simple as a skill check. Since your players like mapped combat, I would commit to mapping combat. Take some time with whatever system you choose, gain some mastery with it so that the battles and the "day-to-day" skill resolution goes as smoothly and quickly as possible. Final thing is that you seem to want to have more situations that don't involve combat -- more negotiations and creative solutions. That's great, but I would not lean on the rules to try to get this to your table. I recall in another of your vids, you complained about D&D because your 5th level party never needed to negotiate with bandits because they could easily one-shot them. You're right... D&D has always had that problem, but some of that is on you (and your players). If the issue is that the PCs won't listen when bandits have them at sword point because of the way hit points and powers work -- then yeah, that is a problem of the rules. You can play a game where the power scaling is flat. A lot of OSR games, as well as older games, have a flatter power progression. If the issue is that your PCs just resort to combat regardless of the system... well then the rules aren't really the issue, right? In a world/genre where violence is an accepted solution, sometimes you need a good reason why violence cannot be the (whole) solution. -- The PCs recognize one of the bandits as being related to a high-ranking noble. Killing them might be justified, but it would make enemies of the wrong people. Maybe better to know this secret and hold it for future use? -- All that valuable loot the bandits are carrying? Flammable/meltable. Looks like fireball is out of the question. -- The bandits have a hostage and they will kill the hostage instantly once battle begins (regardless of initiative). You have to talk or disable the hostage-holder before you can safely engage. You get the idea... In any case, good luck!
It's okay to be mistaken. You thought Wildsea would bring the changes your table jives with, but for whatever reason, it didn't. That's okay! Feels bad as a GM, I know, but trust me, your table doesn't see it as the disaster you see. Maybe a little janky, sounds like they have growing awareness of how it should flow, but they still got to play with you--and you got them to fall in love with the Wildsea setting. A crap GM does the opposite. ;) Have your fam/players watch this (unless you feel like you can do it more succinctly face-to-face), and just be transparent with them. You're the GM, but don't forget you are also a player. If one of your players isn't having fun, your instinct is to fix it. If ~you~ aren't having fun, stick with that instinct. I heartily approve of yoinking the Wildsea setting and using it in whatever system you want. I'm excited for you guys!
Success with a failure mechanics sound great, and they sound better than pass fail. But they are hard as hell to actually play. It's just hard to come with things on the fly, at least for me. For all the really big decisions, ie negotiating with the local lord for whatever you want, I'd make a table with all those good or bads options and roll rather than trying to do it off the top of my head. I don't know what system you are using. Wild Sea doesnt interest me much. But from what you are describing, I'd play Mutant Crawl Classics or maybe even Pirate Borg as a base. I could honestly play any scenario (including what you describe future apocalypse water themed whatever that is) with Shadowdark, ICRPG, Pirate Borg, OSR or probably even Dragonbane. Find what you like and bend the rules. It's just a D20. Unless you are playing Gurps. :) Or maybe Savage World or Zero Year. BTW I still like ICRPG for most of it's mechanics for you. There are a few I don't dig but the base is fantastic. (It is also the best GM manual I've ever read.) For friends around the table especially if you have some who don't care as much about rules, that one big die with the DC and everyone around table screaming when the kid rolls a 15 or whatever makes for great fun. Not much granularity but you could do whatever you want with that and add more complex weapon charts, magic items, skills etc. It's LESS granular than Shadowdark though, so it might not be your jam. But it's strength is one quick system to play damn near anything. The book comes with fantasy, weird west, space, apocalypse and something else I cant remember in it. In many of the cinematic kind of games, basically you are able to kill minions with one hit and only the bosses and lieutenants require several hits. If you think of any scene from Lord of the Rings, Avengers, or anything else, this is the way it works. Don't panic. If they like it, keep playing and adapt the rules. Whichever rules you liked best and are comfortable with, use that. They don't know anyway. You just tell them roll a d20 and what results.
@@FamilyTableTop There are some other Professor DM "Secret Number every GM needs to know" videos. They are all worth the time. In the end you are setting a target number and having the kids roll. The other "best resource" to me in addition to Prof DM, and the Index Card RPG DM section, is "Sly Flourish" Lazy DM videos. He has books but the videos will let you dip your toe in. Remember the goal is to have your kids entertained first and foremost. Anything else is gravy.
As soon as I see terms like "edges" and "aspects" in a game system I already know the game mechanics are divorced from the role playing of the character.
@@FamilyTableTop I have had fun with 5e but with a silly amount of hand waiving and homebrew simplifying that it really isn't 5e anymore. About to DM Shadowdark for the first time. From your video, I think you might have a lot of luck just adopting that setting to Shadowdark or Dragonbane.
@@tubebobwil out of curiosity, what is it about the terms edges and aspects that makes you think they'd be mechanics divorced from roleplaying? Any complaints I've heard about Wildsea before now usually has it that there's too much roleplaying, not that there's not enough
@@antomanifesto I kind of mean roleplaying not in the "talk with the NPCs" way but in the "inhabit your character" way ... Which one still can do in a session where zero social interaction occurs with NPCs and might be all combat and/or exploration. I find that games that use regular English language words and ascribe game-mechanic-specific meanings to them (including all of the Powered by the Apocalypse systems), tend to take one out of that role play. The system interferes between the player and the playing of the game. I bet if one hadn't yet read any PbtA-based game rules, and someone through out terms like "edges" and "aspects", I bet that person would have a hard time grasping what is an edge and what is an aspect. FATE system has this in spades too. I also think skilled-based games with a bunch of push-buttons and pull-knobs on the character sheet, interfere between the player and the playing of the game as well. That's my opinion at least.
@@tubebobwilooohh, so do you mean this in the Brennan Lee Mulligan sense of "Just leave the roleplaying entirely to player imagination, and just tell us the rules for things like combat because that's the only bit I need structure for?" And subsequently viewing edges and aspects as, while roleplay focussed, putting the players into too much of a funnel? Have I got that right?
You only fail if there is no fun had. Minions are a great idea to keep the combat simpler. It will help them keep focus if there are a few interesting NPCs, and a bunch of fodder. Keep your turns super fast and simple and get the action back to them. Take a break when you need one. Play a board game.
You might not be giving each system enough time to gel. I just looked through your video catalog and you've jumped systems what, 4 times in 3 months? There have been a couple of games that I've run only one session and decided that they weren't worth our group pursuing. But learning a new game every week or three can be exhausting. Usually when I introduce a new game, I'll plan on a 3 to 6 month short campaign. That give me enough time to absorb the rules, let the players get a feel for things, and discuss and implement any house rules. Try revisiting one that you players enjoyed using this new setting. I agree with wickedly1 that a break may also be in order. take the time to play some board games or prepare some of the crossover materials you may need. I get the impression that you, like me, are a victim of overchoice . There are a couple dozen games I want to try, and I need to resist the urge to bounce from one to the next. I also get the feeling that you have an interesting mix of players and you want to provide something for everyone. That will take time. I wouldn't call it failure. It's more growth than anything else. And... you're getting your children and some of their friends to try new things and spend more time actually interacting with each other. I commend you for that! Now I need to co back and watch your Marvel Champions and Crisis Protocol videos. They just got added to my collection.
You are very wise - I think you have accurately nailed a few of my issues. I’m trying to gel together some very different players, I am overly interested in ALL the different systems and the moment I try one that doesn’t meld well - I jump ship a little too quickly. I’m probably going to go back to Dragonbane or Shadowdark - most of my players really liked those games in a general sense and I think our groups problems would largely be solved by playing with a clear campaign primer. Thank you.
Too many systems. I understand the urge to switch a lot. Keep in mind that all systems are flexible. i moved from d&d to shadowdark for simplicity for me. My daughter and her friends know only d&d...so we play shadowdark but I just call it d&d to them. I let them create 5e characters but everything i do is shadowdark. Shadowdark is great to start and as players learn more you can always add new mechanics that make it fun for them. Specific advice to try: less prep and just free flow. Try not to have an ending in mind for the scenario...it will keep it fresh for you not knowing what's coming.
Almost sounds like you should all run a tutorial combat to teach yourself how it works. Or atleast one of the kids. Make a character or 2, pit them against an enemy and then go through the rules together. Make notes of things that come up often and run through it until you have a good understanding. Then make a flowchart. like a cheatsheet to give all the players. It takes time to learn a new system and combat is most often the most ruleheavy portion.
I have a set scenario, a "Halls of Testing", that I use for my group when we're trying out a new system - I tweak it to exercise all the main rules in a system for different situations. We then play through that with throwaway characters, sometimes resetting an area if we think we've missed something obvious or the dice have been "squiffy" meaning that we didn't get to kick all the tyres we should have.
Everyone keeps commenting that Kids have a hard time with games like wildsea are wrong they get it the best. In more traditional ttrpgs what you do is limited, in wildsea the are not. In a fight with pirates traditional ttrpgs will have you move and attack, maybe did a special ability. Wildsea the combat is open. Every time I run a game of DnD for kids under 12 I ask what they want to do. I always get something crazy like, I want to jump of the wall running past the pirates and kick the captain off the ship. In traditional ttrpgs you can't do this. In wildsea you can, that sounds like a grace with flourush using x skill, but you get a cut for jumping over the crew.
To answer the question first, the same way you stay motivated when learning any new skill. There isn’t anything unique to it. The best method for me is to get in touch with what I love about the hobby and playing. That said, some are saying you are experiencing burn out. You aren’t. You clearly have motivation to fix the issues but are struggling for solutions because you are looking for something perfect when perfect doesn’t exist. As Matt said, this is an opportunity. My question for you is why are you trying to sabotage the opportunity? What I mean is this, you are looking for a setting not a system. You found a system your players like in ShadowDark & Dragonbane. You found a setting they seem cool with but don’t like the system as much in Wildsea. But your solution is Savage Worlds, why? It doesn’t make sense to use Savage Worlds to fix the issues you’re having with WildSea if the players like ShadowDark or Dragonbane. Use the system they like. Build the setting to suit the system. The thing I’ve been trying to convey is setting is interchangeable. Its flavor. Realistically, what’s the difference between a cart and a ship? A ship has gunners? Okay. You can put gunners on a cart or wagon. It’s just descriptive flavor. What’s the difference between traveling under a sun blotting canopy looking for a crash site and exploring the caverns under a mountain? Its flavor and description. You can make any system work for any setting. So take some time, build a setting, be a player in a system you want to run, and just enjoy the game for a bit. Learn as a player. But most importantly remember why you are doing this and listen to those people above everyone else.
Just a suggestion... why don't you (not your whole group) join one of the online games on Roll20, say, for the system that you're wanting to run. Play it a few times and see what it's really like before bringing it to your table. That way you'll see some of the wrinkles in the systems and settings before you try making something from the whole cloth. That way it'll give you a bit of a break from being gamemaster for a while too. P.S. Have you played Savage Worlds before already? Do you know that system well?
I just lost my comment because I am stupid...but probably for the better. Seems like 1. you are starting to experience GM burnout. 2. you are putting to much unnecessary pressure onto yourself Give yourself some slack. Have patience with yourself. Regardless in which system. I feel like you are switching systems too quickly. I didn't properly understand why you felt the need to leave Shadowdark. Did you want to, did your players want to? If the mostly the former, do you feel extra pressured because you made that decision, and now you really need to make it work? (I remember the buy in video) Not every session must be perfect. To be honest, they rarely are, if ever. What does "perfect session" even mean? There's always some friction. And some sessions are really bad. But that doesn't mean you have to jump to something else immediately. Because even though it might have been a really bad one, you'll still probably have a lot of fun the next time. Also it seems like The Wildsea is a game with very different underlying assumptions from most the other games you've played. It's normal that takes some time to get used to a new game with a different vibe.
Here's my advice. Go back to D&D - stick with one system only - learn it's rules well, teach your family the rules well, once the rules are becoming second nature, running a session will be simpler, you'll make less mistakes, 'fail' less often, and be able to provide your players a piratical adventure they're after. On Pirates - D&D can make for an awesome system for Pirate fun - there are whole supplements just on pirates available as PDF's for cheap. I think your scattershot approach is the problem. Concentrate on one thing. How do you stay motivated - you set yourself a goal to get better at one part of the game (start with combat!) - each session reflect on ways to improve it (whatever better means to you and your group) and do those. Your motivation as DM is based on creating a cool game that you and your players enjoy. It's not system-dependent.
Take whatever aspects you and your players liked from every system you've played and slap chop them together into your own hodge podge system & play it in the wildseed setting. I thought you guys were trying wildseed because of the pets mechanic in the system? If so can you import the wildseed pet mechanic into shadowdark,Use the shadowdark ruleset and play in the wildseed world?
I think we’re going to try doing your second suggestion - we’re going back to Shadowdark but I’m going to do a better campaign primer, I’m going to add a couple of classes and do a better job of world building.
Honestly, and I am not trying to be mean, but it doesn't sound like your group is embracing narrative type gameplay. Games like Wildsea and Blades in the Dark are a different monster than Shadowdark, D&D, etc. and does take time to get used to. My experience is that some players do not like the freedom these systems give them as they are creatively responsible to develop the scene along side the GM. And the GM has to give up control of the scene. When it all comes together it is an awesome experience, but it has to be with the right group. Personally, I would dump the system and talk to your players, let them choose which way to go (stay with the setting or move back to Dragonbane or Shadowdark). Cause if your players are having fun then the GM wouldn't either.
Or even play a dungeon crawl board game for a more structured experience (1 vs many or full co-op). I had a failed attempt with running WFRP for my students. They were like heavy carts I needed to constantly push in a specified direction, their characters lacking any internal motivation to explore and seek trouble on their own or creatively solve problems which did not have a solution given on a silver platter. It was exhausting and felt like a chore. Switching to just playing Massive Darkness 2 worked like a charm :)
Play what feels natural and is easy for you too run. If you are struggling with a complex/weird mechanic, play something else. Shadowdark can work with any setting, want to catch pirates? Use SD and use the setting, SD rules are easy enough you can whip up creature stats on the fly.
Drop all the books you're reading for a second and read Dungeon World's GM moves chapter. Your games will never drag again if you internalize the advice on pacing in that chapter. Wildsea sounds like a mismatch for your table, but you can always graft the world into a different system with a little elbow grease
I'd give wildsea 3 sessions before dropping. Thats a general rule for me. To help with conversation, try giving each player 3 tokens. Each time they act, have them put it in the center table, and then you (acting as the world or an enemy(s)) take one action, possibly directly responding to them or possibly threatening to shift the battle in a big way or threaten multiple players with a telegraphed bad thing coming next turn. Once a players out of tokens, they can't act until all players are out of their tokens and everybody gets 3 again DEFINITELY have small groups of weak baddies share a statblock. Try to be nicer to yourself, and ask your players how they feel about sessions. I did stars, wishes, and general fun out of 10 after every session. You see your mistakes more than they do and it will help keep you grounded. GMing is hard, Gming for big groups is hard, Gming for different player styles is hard, and Gming a new system (especially a big departure) is ALWAYS rough to start. You're doing a tough thing, and it won't be perfect for years. But if everybody is having fun and you're learning every time, you're doing well enough.
Let me just preface this comment with the phrase "neener neener, I told you so." What did I say? For a refresher: I said stick with Shadowdark for a while. In spite of my own apprehension for the game. You're living in the reason why. I fear the GM ADHD has you. With that out of the way, I'll make the statement nobody else dare: the grass isn't greener. Chasing the greener grass is what got you into this mess, it will NOT be what gets you out. You're just going to keep dropping the corpses of game systems behind you until you become jaded and lose your sunny disposition. Ask me how I know. So let me reiterate - stick with one game. If Shadowdark is what has worked best for you, move back to that. Stick with it for a while. A year or two. Pretend other games don''t exist. If there's something wrong with Shadowdark (or whatever game you choose) make a modification. But keep playing it. Everyone out here on the internet is obsessed with the cult of new. Wildsea is the new new. Dragonbane was the before new, and Shadowdark was before before new. It takes a person standing outside the cult of new to see it for what it is. You're very much being influenced by other's comments, spending a bunch of money on stuff you frankly don't need and overly won't benefit your game any more than what you already have. And you know that's true. The grass is the same shade. The only way I've found to step out of the cult of the new is to play through. Good luck.
Eron speaks from experience and I agree with him. Stick with something you have a good handle on (Shadowdark). Dragonbane sounds great, but from what I have read, when characters reach 18 in multiple skills, the game starts becoming trivial. I don't think Wildsea is the solution.
Holds up shield = smile on everybody's face. Yeah that's why we're here. lol. Ok. You mentioned you don't like dnd and i am curious about what about the game puts you off. Considering your family is coming from a table top wargaming perspective - I notice a lot of 40k stuff, not other models, why not go for a 40k roleplaying game ? Unless you are trying to branch out into other genre types, in which case what type of genre are you looking for to be different than the wargaming? It might not be the system that is getting in the way. Perhaps the players, except for marshall (sp?), are focusing on the mechanics of the rpg fighting as a more elaborate form of table top wargaming. There are several reasons why an rpg will suggest you not use miniatures: - being just pen, paper and dice it saves money. - many games will emphasize the action over the rules of the story and try not to get bogged down by mechanics. Unless it's a horror game, many games want the players to succeed at what they do , the randomness means not everything will go to plan to generally encourage a wacky, zany good time. In this case the players can put themselves into a situation where they can fail, but, they know about it beforehand and accept it as part of the game. Your characters dieing can be fun in the right situation. Also, combats will run more smoothly as the players better understand the rules of the game and how their characters can work together to do things. They will get into a rhythm. Initially this can trip you up as a new dm because you are always taking time to consider whether a new action is allowed or not. I would consider having a few short 1 or 2 hour practice sessions (a one off or 2 off) with 3 players to test out the combat system and get people used to using the rules. The suggestion from others about you playing online a few times to get a better hang of the system you choose is a great one. I would go one step further and find a local game store that hosts drop in sessions and have one or two of your group head in to play with other people to get a feel for what they are doing. Don't go in all at once, 7 of you is a large number for a drop in unless you call in advance to ask about it.
I think leaving Shadow Dark because of one bad game was a mistake. I think if you become indecisive and start trying to hop systems every time things get choppy you'll never improve at running that system. Each jump to a new system has diminishing returns on player buy in. Be careful you don't death spiral. I'd go back to Shadow Dark and learn how to play with that system to make it what you want. Thinking of things in binary success or failure will make the game a chore. Try just have fun with your family making stories. Improvement is good but it's a muscle you're working and it takes time. GM'ing isn't easy especially when you hold yourself to a high standard. Be patient.
I think you’re right, about everything. Jumping systems has definitely upset some of my players. - I’m going to talk with my players and figure out what we would like to play together. I think either Shadowdark (like you’ve suggested) or Dragonbane because my son and his friend really liked the game. Thank you.
This suggestion is based on not knowing how well or how poorly Shadowdark handles outdoor adventures... To me, based on you prior videos, it seems that your group has a preference towards fantasy. That being said, my suggestion is give a true OSR "D&D" rules based game. These games, like BECMI and B/X handle both outdoor and dungeon settings well. These style rules also handle situations outside of combat well... They also allow for players to place their characters firmly into the world. Best of all, they're not 5e based. 😮
Why don't you sit down with your players and see what you all like form the various systems and make a homebrew that you all like, thus makeing a system that you can put into any setting.
Maybe you're trying too much at once. In a couple of months you've been on 4 different systems. That's a lot. It seemed like Shadowdark was a favorite of yours, but you were afraid players weren't playing the system wrong. If the players are having fun, they're not playing wrong. You talked about stripping a setting and dropping it into Savage Worlds. You could do the same with Shadowdark. There are already a few cool settings for Shadowdark: There's Shadowrim (Skyrim) and Shadowsun (based on the old Dark Sun campaign from D&D) and Celtic Shadows (Celtic mythology strapped onto Shadowdark). One or a couple of those could be great examples of sort of how to do it. Many settings are system agnostic, especially so if you are willing to do a little conversion. Write your own Shadowdark based on a pirate setting (or whatever Wildsea is, I've never looked into it) and turn your players loose.
Are all your players reading the rules to a level enough that they are at least familiar with how things work for them at the table? I'm not sure, but it sounds like you are carrying all the weight all of the time. The more you can offload some of the responsibility will help. Feeling helpless running a new system that your players haven't played before either sounds like par for the course. On another note you've got a bunch of players that seem to have different things they want from playing, would running two different groups ever be an option to you? Dm'ing a large group is hard enough when everybody is on the same page. And remember you are their to adjudicate rules and help with the flow, you aren't a chaperone! There needs to be some responsibility of the players too in this hobby.
I think you are trying too hard. I notice you are going pretty hard on hand crafting a lot of ambitious things before you even start a game. If you like Shadowdark, play through some of the Cursed Scrolls, there is some built in setting in those, or steal from any setting you like, Greyhawk is a good one. Play some published scenarios. The Dragonbane Campaign from the box set is great. The Wildsea has published starter scenarios as well. You are a new GM, you are trying new systems. Do yourself the favor of learning to walk in a system before trying to do a Triathlon. In movie terms. Just do Star Wars and see how it goes. Don't try to do all 9 films at once. Savage worlds is great, but for real, try something stock at a lower level of GM prep if you are feeling overtaxed and frustrated. If you want a Savage Worlds setting with ships in an odd post disaster setting, track down Sundered Skies, there is a load of stuff for it.
It seems like all you are doing is running games for others. Do you play in any? If not, then do that. Nothing motivates me more for my campaign than playing in another.
Hey, I commented on your last video about Wildsea, I know exactly what you're talking about. Discord link didn't work for me but I'd love to chat, I may have some insight.
Nobody's going to run a game perfect the first time out, especially when it's expecting you the GM to make calls on how appropriate things are. You're bumping up against what I'd consider my limit with total strangers but you're not running for total strangers so you've got some advantage there. The key is developing habits that make it less taxing to make a satisfying call in the moment, and the only thing that'll help you there is practice.
And advice, which is just other people's practice. So here's some advice!
CONSTRUCTING HAZARDS (chapter 10)
No, each pirate should not be their own hazard. You know how a fight with a pirate crew looks in a movie, right? There's like one or two guys who have a big noteworthy gimmick, an arbitrary supply of pirate rabble, and one or two special tricks they're capable of. And you roll all that up into one big hazard which is probably going to operate on damage track rules, and think about what happens when each track drops. So, like, here's a crew led by a scarred veteran captain and his large, silent, and surprisingly quick bodyguard, for an encounter with a 12-box hazard:
Captain Ironhook 🔳🔳
Faithful Gammage 🔳🔳🔳
The Rabble 🔳🔳🔳🔳🔳
Wait, They Have Snipers? 🔳🔳
And similarly to the players, your default position is that you can mark tracks as you please when your players succeed at attack rolls. So maybe you think of these boxes like this:
Gammage will take blows for Ironhook when possible and probably resists some player damage. If Gammage drops first, Ironhook will have no qualms busting out his more indiscriminate (explosive/chemical) weaponry; if Ironhook drops first, Gammage goes berserk.
While the rabble are around they get in everyone's way, making it easier for Ironhook, Gammage, and the snipers to do as they please. If the rabble drops first, the snipers also fall silent but they're charging something big. If the snipers drop first, some of the rabble will flee to try something desperate.
RUNNING HAZARDS
The key thing to keep in mind is that unlike tactical combat you don't get locking, blocking, and zones of control by default. Everything's fluid. So, like, don't narrate Captain Ironhook into a place where he gets grabbed and somebody can punch him as much as they want. In that position he's out of the fight; while he's up he can act freely.
In the moment think less about cutting for difficulty and more about cutting for precision or impact. Somebody's doing a Grace Flourish to attack and that seems a little hinky? Don't just cut a die, think about where Flourish is strong. Could you dazzle everyone and come in at Ironhook from a blind angle, even with Gammage still trying to shield him? Cut Ironhook for precision. Is the arc of the fall going to burn itself into the minds of everyone in the mob, all "this could be you next"? Cut the rabble for impact. Framing it that way will take some of the edge off the cut.
If you want to add something tactical to it a very easy way to do this is to "set for precision" or "set for impact". Volleyball, you know? Bump, set, spike? When somebody takes a focus action they don't do it to directly mark a hazard track but to set somebody else up to go harder or more precisely, and when they take the action they get a die of advantage and precision or impact for free. Like, at the start of the fight nobody at all knows where the snipers are to hit them, and you could cut for precision to try and hit them once yourself, or you could mark them out for whoever wants to go there.
When you're thinking about total actions you might want to step things up slightly from what the book says, where a hazard makes a big move and a small move for every round of focus actions your crew takes against it. Since you've got a bigger crew, consider one big move, one small move, and one that flips between them, so that when every member of your six-player crew has taken two focus actions, your hazard has done three big things and three small things.
Note that these are things explicitly to provoke reactions from your players. When your players try to do something and get less than a clean success, your hazard "gets to act for free" in that the way you describe the consequences of your roll can involve the hazard creating those consequences.
IMPROVISING HAZARD ACTIONS
At a loss for a big thing? Do a medium hit, do a weak area hit, do a weak hit that sets up an advantage. A small thing? Do a weak hit, slip a player advantage (either a set nobody's acted on or an advantage that wouldn't make sense in a different terrain zone), or try to "gain a charge" - basically start a little 2- or 3-box track and tick the final box along with a hit to do 2 extra damage per successful charge. So for example, when the rabble are trying to do something desperate:
Ram Your Own Dang Ship 🔳🔳🔳
They can be trying to pack one of their pinnaces with explosives (one small thing to gain charge) and pilot it away into the wildsea at speed (a second small thing to gain charge) before ramping it to crash dangerously down on the battle (a big thing that's a weak area hit). If the player you've pegged for a reaction can disrupt loading the explosives and then take out the pilot or damage the pinnace, then the big crash still happens but it's only as dangerous as one of Captain Ironhook's regular grenade barrages.
I don’t even know what to say - you have expertly solved the problem I had at my table.
I think the problem I am having is that I have no idea how to run Wildsea. This game is far more complex than I had thought…
How long have you played/run the game? How many sessions did you play to learn how to do this?
I am impressed.
@@FamilyTableTop In all fairness, I'm making it look easy, not least because nobody's getting bored waiting for me to come up with an answer.
I've played this specific game a couple of times at cons, but I've been playing games like it for almost fifteen years now. The dice engine has big similarities to Blades in the Dark, damage and progress tracks have been a thing since at least Fate Core, and I first encountered the idea of damage checkpoints where the battle changes in Masks and Voidheart Symphony. By "games like it" I mean games with story-scoped rather than task-scoped resolution.
Task-scoped is easy to explain since you're familiar with tactical miniatures games: the game is organized as a series of defined tasks that are performed in a specific order, and when you go to the dice you're finding out the specific results of some task. Make an attack roll to find out if the rocket salvo hits, make an armor roll to find out if it does damage. When the dice are rolling you're thinking about one specific action and the results tell you how that action goes.
When the dice are rolling in a story-scoped game you're also still usually thinking about one specific action, but what the dice results tell you is how well the movie scene plays out when the camera's on you, which means that you can do the action successfully but it can play out to mixed or even disastrous results. So the context of the action also matters, both in terms of framing the desired results before the roll takes place, and in how the GM describes the resulting action.
Task-scoped games can often be complicated to prep, because to put something in the game you need to give it all the hooks that the game's tasks will need to pull on. But they're not as complicated to run, since all you need to know is how the tasks go and then you can run them out in order.
Story-scoped games can often be demanding to run, because you're left to make a lot of on-the-spot decisions. But they're not as complicated to prep, because mostly what you're doing is writing down things that would be cool to happen in the story.
It may ultimately be that running this game for your entire group is going to be beyond where you are now. And if it is, then that's a real bummer, because the main reason I keep playing these games and what I get out of them is the satisfaction of making the game work, of solving the puzzle of framing and responding to player action with the tools the game gives me.
The older I get, the more I understand: time spent with family is a win. Your kids may not remember combat taking too long. They'll probably remember that their dad cared enough to constantly work towards spending quality time with them. In this way, the system is important, but not the Most Important™ element, right?
@@StagRPG thank you. 🙏 you are correct. 😌
I appreciate this gentle reminder of the reason behind our game night.
Stag's spot on. It's those moments that will come back to your kids decades from now and long after you have passed on. Also something I like to blather often enough when someone asks, "But how do you win?"
"We win by playing; by having fun with our family and friends and sometimes strangers."
Patience, sir, patience. Enough famous folks have said variations on: "Failing is really the only way we truly learn."
Take a break. I have made more mistakes than any DM I know. Take a break, and reflect on how you have run your games. When you are running week to week, it's like running on a treadmill, eventually your legs are going get sore, then you get off and your legs are wobbly. Take a break and get your legs stable again, and in the meantime think about what you did in your last game. This reflection will help you realize your DMing style more, what you did that you were like, "You know, that was pretty cool.", and others where you think back and think, "You know, I should have handled that differently.". These reflections will help you for next time, and you will get The Itch. It's a weird feeling, but it is a human creative thing where you feel the need to run the game. Then, run a game with the reflections you have made during your break and see how it goes. I will tell you, you will fail again. The life of being a DM is fraught with it, the key is to fail better next time. You'll hit a point where what you believe was a mistake, is actually unnoticeable to your players.
This is a really excited time for you, if you embrace it. You have learned what your players enjoy and what they do not enjoy, and that is AWESOME. Now is the time to take those two things and kitbash them together to make the game that YOU want to play.
There is no reason that you could not take the setting for Wildsea and put them over the top of Shadowdark. Half the fun of this kitbashing is creating your own monsters and creatures.
Dragonbane might have it's own setting, but that does not mean that it must be used! If your players enjoy Dragonbane's mechanics, lift them and put them in a Wildsea setting! Use the bestiary from Dragonbane as a template to craft your own creatures, monsters, NPCs, and even equipment.
That Wildsea book is still a GOLD MINE of lore, setting, etc. There is no reason to jetison the entire game.
@@KraftyMattKraft excellent suggestions. I talked with my son and Marshel tonight. I think we all have agreed that we’re going to go back to Shadowdark and this time I’m going to do a proper primer, full hex, and I won’t baby my players… hopefully
I would suggest working on making Dragonbane more naturally narrative. Work in your own homebrew mechanic for those 'spotlight' moments that divides the creative moments. Maybe give them 2-3 options that a player must choose between, instead of infinite possibilities.
Having 6 amateur players divide a narrative experience, with you still learning, will lead to some dead end moments. Which is fine, but you still need to make the best of these 'learning hiccups'.
"Open-narrative" is much harder for kids and newbies to know when to take charge. Asking "...So what do you do?" can feel like pausing a fighting game and passing the controller and saying "Ok now do a combo while you explain what it does".
I believe in you 💪 understanding what goes wrong is sometimes more important than doing things right at all.
Right, so for solutions to the problems you've listed, especially for Worldsea:
-Observe "ruts" in their choices (repeated, min-maxy options).
Then implement homebrew limits.
EG 1 defenestration per combat (throwing an enemy out a window) or, every Hero must negotiate before any can do it again.
-For those "random Skill" attempts, they're trying to exploit anything possible. A solution to this is an "ante" cost. Give them a +1 bonus the first time they use each skill in a session, then -1 each time after that. Make them use it to count.
-Impliment "Really, though?" as a hard rule. If it's impractically risky or difficult, or they would never do that IRL, then it doesn't happen.
-Saying "No." is a complete answer that can save you 5 minutes and define the setting.
It also discourages them from "rules lawyering" options."
-The "OK but that's a Bad Idea" Rule. Tell them 'sure but you'll probably fail and there will be obvious repercussions if so.' Maybe a 1/3 to succeed.
To remove bad behaviour, limit the way those options can exploit things.
I find role-play heavy stuff to be a challenge when playing with my kids... They need action to maintain attention. I don't think I could have the patience to try out as many different systems as you do, at least not with my kids lol
Oh, and I needed to add.. watching your videos and others helps keep me motivated. I would suggest if you're frustrated, go back to the system that worked best for your group as far as fun is considered.
@@sm0thrdhp that’s a great idea… that’s what I was thinking. Probably going back to Dragonbane - something simple.
My motivation stems from the dopamine hit I get from seeing my player's reactions and their overcoming challenges.
I'm curious about what success looks like to you as a GM? From where I sit you're doing well. Is it possible that failure is too strong a word?
I would definitely focus on playing one system that you have enjoyed using. Swapping systems frequently is exhausting, since you have to basically relearn and reteach the rules every time.
On the subject of too much combat and not enough narrative. I think that sticking to one system is also super useful. If everyone knows the rules, you can move through combat faster and get to the narrative faster. Also I have found that when playing with kids, they tend to want to just fight, fight, fight. Itll take some time to guide them towards more narrative styles of play.
You can also just mix and match systems and settings. Just use dragonbane with the wildsea setting. I would definitely recommend just running some pre-written adventures aswell. It will take a lot of the load off your back to create a whole new story. My personal favorite is Death, Frost, Doom.
Just like everything in life. You use failure as a learning tool. The only way you become better is by failure.
In regards to your game, just combine the aspects of different games you like. If everyone likes Dragonbanes combat, then use that for combat. You addressed this later in the video and that sounds like the best option.
I think Wildsea can definitely do combat but you need multiple objectives if you want to spend time on it. Fight the pirates and protect your ship and try to disable their ship and rescue the hostage and try not to alert the opportunistic predators lurking in the waves.
Also, consider other ways to hurt the pirates. Intimidation, attacking their fuel supply, wasting their ammo and energy by tanking a full force attack, breaking their group cohesion with a distraction. These things can do “damage” to their track, or give your allies advantages.
Overall, give more things to do, and say yes more often. Also, since you won’t have a tactical grid, try to have zones. Above deck, below deck, in the trees, in the mouth of a whale, daringly balanced on the ropes above ship, etc.
Best answer by far.
@@maladroitthief that’s so kind of you to say, thank you
Keep at it bud. Sounds like maybe you need to flesh out session expectations and also trying to balance out a new TTRPG system. In my experience you can do one or the other but if your trying to do both, that can get rough. You'll have uncertainty with the players about their characters and the session with how to resolve that with the system.
My best 2 cents is there is never going to be a perfect system. I say keep the setting from the system you like but use the ttrpg that works best for you and your table.
I knew when I researched Wildsea it wouldn't be for me.
A simple system I love has great books with quests and
Map tiles for miniatures with a
Huge bonus that the combat is really fast.
This ttrpg is called:
D100 Dungeon Mapping Game.
The first book presents as a solo system but I've played it with other people and it went really well.
This reminds me a lot of when I tried to get D&D players to play Blades in the Dark. They loved the idea of the setting but the vague conversational nature of the system didn’t work well for them and I didn’t do a good enough job transitioning them.
Savage Worlds is an excellent choice. If you find yourself feeling like it’s becoming work, don’t feel like you have to force it. 50 Fathoms may help with the pirate setting and ship combat.
@@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming thank you for the recommendation- I haven’t heard of 50 Fathoms. Could you tell me a little bit about the system?
Index card RPG…master edition. You’ll never go back.
It's been my thought for him from the beginning. I love it and it's the schizzle for a fast game with many people, some of whom may not even know the rules.
Yeah, I was going to suggest ICRPG too.
You have experience with Shadow dark, so it will feel familiar. The GM advice is great. It has the looseness of Dragonbane. It is super adaptable so you could overlay it on the Wildsea setting.
I love ICRPG but a word of caution: the master edition feels like a beta version; a mishmash of related material that needs to go through a round of editing to make it streamlined. You can still very much play it, but you need to make some decisions before you start with regards to what from the book you'll be using.
Another thing, try solo play to see how this works and if it’s for you and your group. Measure twice, cut once.
The more time I spend on solo play the more I think it's the hidden pillar of the hobby
So, my thoughts on this...
1. If you like the setting, try taking your son and maybe one of his friends and set the expectation that you want to figure out the system before the next game. This gives everyone the opportunity to expect a slower combat as you all look up and discuss the rules and then see how they play out without the stress of being on the spot with a table full of players looking to have a good time. Learning a new system is kind of like learning to drive stick-shift...it's going to take time and the more you can learn to use the clutch to stop and go without the stress of traffic behind you, the easier and more enjoyable it will be.
2. Savage Worlds absolutely could be used to run this setting...and it can create all the different races of the setting. I've converted a lot of game systems to Savage Worlds, but they have always been settings where the mechanics added nothing to the setting. If Wild Sea's mechanics seem tailor-made to enhance the setting, then I'd probably refer you to item 1 above. BUT if the enhancement is very minor...just convert the setting to Savage Worlds.
3. You could also run this setting with the Dragonbane rules...it may require a little more work and effort though. I will also add, Dragonbane doesn't have to be all about combat. In fact, I'd say, Dragonbane can be a very deadly system if the players don't play smart. My first foray into Dragonbane with experienced players resulted in a TPK.
At the end of the day, you tried something new and it didn't work as you'd hoped. That doesn't mean it was a failure...it's only a failure if you didn't learn anything. Chances are, your players will give you a bit of grace, especially since it is a new system and you need to get a feel for everything. I'd probably say, give a few more sessions, but set the expectations with the players that it may go slower than desired as you try to learn the system. I think it's usually a good idea to try a new system 2 or 3 times before throwing in the towel, but that could just be me. 😀
That happens. You never know before you try. It's ok to try new things, any experience is experience, so it's fine. Finding the best system for you and your players is a hard task, I had the same issues as you. Just try on and on. The system doesn't matter so much, having a time with friends and family does. Talk to them, you're not alone in this )
How do you keep yourself feeling motivated when you feel hopeless?
(Probably my favorite version of the question, so I'll answer based on this one.)
When it comes tabletop roleplaying games, when I fail, I keep going based on the heading my players set for me. I take a lot of breaks, make sure I'm watered and I have the sleep, the rest, I need. Especially on weeks when the session is going to go hard. I do a lot of research for my sessions and I learned the hard way to rest more when I do. As well as on weeks when I double and triple check my prep. Just to be sure that if anything could spin out of control I have an idea of where that could go.
After that though, I listen to them. They are my main guiding start as I'm navigating the game. They seek, I speak. They battle, I battle too. And afterwards I take those breaks. I watch a movie, play a game, read a book, and decompress as much as possible before bed. Then I start the process of prep the next day.
Even though you are getting discouraged, I believe you are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. When you listed all the games you found the solution to playing for, I thought it was uplifting that you found those answers and recognized that you did. If you can find a solution for them, then you can for Wildsea.
The best I can provide you on what to do, lacking reading the combat rules myself, is listen to your players and take the time to decompress after games. I'm the sort of person to keep reading the rules until I get it. A use the word in a sentence" type of guy. So I make examples for myself, and I like talking it through with other people too. Maybe try that. Walking one of your available players through an example of combat as the book describes it and having them help you? Like maybe your son or your wife, someone who can "translate it" into how you conceptualize things. People close to us have a way of knowing how to talk to us. And getting through to us what we have a hard time seeing or understanding where they do. And perhaps by having them read the rules or listening to the example it will click for them and they can help it click for you.
Bottom line, failure is temporary, take a minute to yourself to rest and assess, then try again. Failure as a GM is like a low roll on the dice, we can get all the modifiers in the world but we can still roll low.
I suggest you watch a couple videos about 4D role playing. Make players stay in character, not ask mother may I questions, and you just describe what happens solves a lot of these problems. You guys will get to build an interesting world together, and the characters motivations will drive the game
Hwy, man. I really like your videos and I especially appreciate how open you are about your struggles at the table. If I were you I think I'd take a week or two off and then go back to Dragonbane, I think its pretty hard to beat for fast-paced, kid-friendly, tactical combat. For the record, it doesnt sound like youre failing to me. You seem to be really attuned to your players' experience, willing to experiment and improve, and you obviously care deeply about the game. Thats a winning combination in my eyes.
And don't despair. A year from now you'll look back and see each of these failures for what they really are: rungs on the ladder of your success. You've probably already climbed higher than you think!
Thank you so much for your encouragement! I have been thinking about Dragonbane all morning - I’m leaning towards this idea strongly.
Thank you
I burned out on running my online game roughly a year ago. Then this past spring I left the live table group and haven’t been able to restart in either. I’m currently running the solo game Astroprisma for myself. I’m surprised at how much I’m enjoying it. It’s not quite the quality of a live table or even a virtual one, but it does scratch the itch while I’m waiting on the next chance to get back on the horse. My advice is it’s okay to take a break, but just be careful because the players might not always be there when you come back.
That’s exactly what I was thinking- and also why I don’t want to take a break…
What went back in your campaign? When do you think you might be ready to start back up again?
3:44 - I've been playing TTRPGs, tabletop battles and LARPs etc. for 30 years, so I can say this with some authority:
Of course it won't work; you're ramming 1 set of rules into another - and, more importantly, onto a pallette those rules aren't designed for. It won't work because *those rules are designed for that thing*
Seems obvious to say, but too many people miss that rules aren't just their expressions; they also *are* the setting they run
Too many times I've seen LARPs that have to "pause" to roll dice or draw cards or rock-paper-scissors... and then wonder why people say they're bored
You've said before that you want to make your own system - then make *that system* - of course, rules can be "inspired by" - but aimply taking rules from 1 place and smashing them into another never, ever, ever works
Switch gears with a palette cleanser. I especially enjoy collaborative storytelling games (GM-ful games). I liked The Quiet Year, and Microscope
If they’re still having fun and want to play it’s a success. If not maybe it’s not the right system.
I’ve read some comments and agree that family time is a win. Maybe take a break and try again? Is there another person outside of your group that could run a game that you get to play in too? Try that?
I’m going to try to get back on the bike again - as the metaphor goes - I think I need to go back to a simple system that I am familiar with.
Thank you for the encouragement- I really appreciate you.
You are experiencing "GM burn out". Leave the game for a month, take a break, go fishing on the weekend, just spend time away from the game, the internet should still be here when you return, and the table top games WILL still be there.
Really, you keep yourself motivated much in the same way you keep yourself motivated for anything else you do for fun (since the humans involved in the activity and the reason behind their involvement are the two constants).
With that said, I think I am noticing a trend in these videos; you and your group and refining down the "how does our ideal game plays like" aspect of the group... which is something that definitely can take time!
You could try another system, try a homebrew setting (you don't need nearly remotely as much as you think you need to start with a homebrew setting anyway!) or take a break for a bit and let the brain wander off in directions other than the problem (or ask someone else if they want to GM, too! Having player side experience helps a lot).
you can bridge the gap between tactical grid combat and theatre of mind with zone combat maps..It still allows some tactical aspects without getting too bogged down on counting squares. Maybe you already are aware of this but Ultimate Dungeon Terrain (UDT) has been something I enjoy
I was not aware of Ultimate Dungeon Terrain - what is that?
@@FamilyTableTop Dungeon craft has videos on it. It is a circular map that has 3 zones. The center is melee, the next one out is ranged, and far ranged. You can only fight enemies in your area and can only move one area per turn. It is fast and simple. More tactical than theater of the mind, less than a grid map.
Let's see if I can help a guy out here.
First and foremost you're new to the hobby so just accept you'll make mistakes. When I say mistakes I say that in a very subjective way. Some sessions may seem like a failure to you but you find out the players loved it etc. Think of these as learning experiences and there will be plenty of those early on. There is no "right" way to play. If you and your table are having fun then it was a success.
Relax a bit, its a game, some sessions will be better than others always. These are sometimes those things where the less you try the better things can be. As a DM/GM you not being tense or stressed about performing or providing a session actually can lead to it being less fun. The energy you bring to the table is important. Be upbeat, excited and happy. The real successes will mark themselves when the players keep talking about specific experiences and events years later.
We had a really bad session about 10 years ago that we now talk about and laugh about because of how comically bad it was. Was it a failure? Hmm... Not so sure now!
About the system to play, just poll your players, or if there is something you really want to play.. Make that impassioned speech why. Let your passion for that game bleed through.
This is how I stayed motivated before finding the system I prefer. I always considered my players and what each of them consistently enjoys, regardless of the character they’re playing. Are they always looking for exciting combat? Is one player focused on gaining power and loot? Maybe another treats every session like pure roleplay, negotiating and befriending everything. Whatever their preferences, I found a system that I, as the GM, was excited about, one that also offered rules to support what each player enjoyed. It's crucial to pick something you’re passionate about because your excitement will naturally spread throughout the game.
The game I run isn’t for everyone-features like the sanity score may not be a fit for all players-but it does allow them to play out nearly any fantasy trope they’re interested in. That said, a game like Shadowdark has simple rules that could be easily adapted into different settings if all your players enjoy the mechanics. If you provide what each of your players like most I can also make some system recommendations.
Combat in Wildsea is quick and dirty, so the idea of structuring an entire session around one combat encounter is just dragging out combat too much. In this case, if you want it to last the whole session, you want to have to hunt the pirates down to their location to begin with, then have a small skirmish before something massive happens to disrupt the fight, at which point it becomes a chase and then a fight in an entirely different location.
Asking this many players to individually try to figure out what to do might also be a bit much in their first session, I would have let them get comfortable in the system first before throwing them into such a chaotic situation. With an experienced group, I expect that the players would have probably naturally split into groups and pulled off coordinated actions together to achieve their goal, maybe by one group disabling the ship entirely while the other group focuses on breaking the pirates morale so they can take them in alive?
Also, it seems like you were being waaaaay too harsh about adding cut and not letting them use their skills. Grace and flourish absolutely sounds right for jumping down on an enemy, if anything having a height advantage would have given them, well, an advantage. They maybe could have described it more gracefully, but asking someone not to use flourish when it's probably their main combat skill just won't work, that's like telling a D&D player that they can't use dexterity. Asking to cut is something that you do if, say, the entire ship is at a 45 degree angle.
Overall though, I think that you just need to slow right down. You're confusing things way too much by changing systems so readily and not learning the system fully before starting sessions, and you need to go more than one session before deciding to start changing fundamental rules, and certainly not do it mid-session. You had the same problem with Shadowdark, you never felt that you were really playing Shadowdark because you and the players hadn't really learnt what Shadowdark was beforehand. And now the same has happened with Wildsea.
My best advice at this point is to stop playing TTRPGs for a few weeks, maybe go back to playing board games for a bit, or do some quizzes or something? Then you use that time as the GM to really read through a few systems, one by one, and really learn them and figure out which one you want to play AND can feel comfortable running. Watch some actual plays. There are Wildsea actual plays available that don't feature the creator that I've told you about before, (although just because someone's working for the publisher doesn't mean they're misrepresenting the game, that would be a weird marketing tactic).
Me again. Try again. As Gygax said in 1AD&D book, the rules are guidelines. You are the GM. Do what you think is best. Change rules if you need to. Sounds like your players are having fun still.
Wish I could help you out more.
Short term adventures. It just IS a simple fix. One night, maybe two sessions, geared around some players background in some way. Players solve it and it's done. Can the adventures be strung together? Of course, but no big plots, just short term adventures.
That’s really helpful. Thank you. You’re right- I need to ground my players in the adventure.
An example. I'm running a Zobeck game. In Zobeck, kobolds are second-class citizens and were being blamed for a series of robberies. I bring up all of this because one the characters is a kobold. When he solved the problem, he got a thank you from local watch officials as well as reward money. Background adventure.@FamilyTableTop
I think it is useful to run one-shots of new systems. Just to make sure everyone is on board with the mechanics and it works for your group, before you switch your campaign. Try out several systems with one shots and see which your players (and you) like the best. Then a short arc to make sure everything keeps working on a longer timeframe and it is still fun. Then build a campaign.
Man! I was hoping you were going to tell me how to keep motivated. Joke's on me! As for my thoughts: I would take some time to come down, maybe play a boardgame next session, and definitely chat with your players about the best way to go forward. I like your idea about using the Wildsea setting with Savage Worlds rules. If you all like Savage Worlds, well it's meant to be hacked into new settings. I'm not familiar with Wildsea, but I know a lot of game mechanics will not work for all players, and hacking in something else is perfectly acceptable.
I just went through one of my darkest periods of "GM self doubt" a few weeks ago. I've GM'd for 45 years. It's part of being a GM. Felt gutted that of my 15 players only 2 or 3 seem really interested in the latest campaign. Feel like I misread my players so badly, thinking I was giving them what they wanted but most of them are just not engaged. I took time to rethink and refocus, which has helped. Sounds like you are doing the same and giving it a few days.
My 2 cents: You played 1 combat as part of the campaign. It doesn't sound like you did a test run of the new system with the players. I think what's missing is a tutorial session where you set up 2 or 3 combats in a row -- not as part of the campaign but as "one off" tests -- each of which introduces elements of the new system gradually. This allows the players to try things out, ask questions, get used to the system, tell you what they like and don't like, all while not feeling like there are real consequences to their characters if they get something wrong. And you as a GM don't have to feel bad if the test falls flat. I have done test sessions like this every time I've changed editions of D&D and even when I introduce a major rule change to my homebrew D&D -- I always have a "test period" so the whole group can find out what we like or don't like about it and adjust accordingly.
I'd love to sit down with you to chat, but being on the other side of the world is problematic. So here are some random thoughts.
First consider what your aim is as a GM. For me, I have the aim of my players having fun and wanting to come back and a running a game I like the theme of.
Secondly I think the mistake you made here was just jumping fully into the system without having run a practice combat before jumping in both feet. For me, I like to try that kind of thing out before hand so when I get to the table I know it is going to work. Or at least I have watched a number of videos from different group running it.
You are absolutely correct about needing to find a system that works and a setting that captures the interest. And I was thinking before you got there that Savage Worlds could be the answer.
For the sake of the players you need to find something and give it a bit of a decent run. Running one session and dropping it will get tired after a bit, so take a pause and think about where your want to go, even if it means having a week off.
Let me ask you this, why did you throw Shadow Dark away? Did the players and you like the system? Did you all like the setting? Was it just because of the lack of primer? If it was only the primer, why not go back to it? Or read the primer issue really a problem with the setting? If you all loved Dragonbane why not go there? If you live Wild Seas setting and they do too, I am sure Savage Worlds could help, but it will take some work for you to convert across.
There are heaps of game systems out there, and all have their pros and cons, find what you and the players will mostly like and run with it. (You will note that I am deliberately not saying run the system that I run because it's the best - because the reason it's the best is because it is the best for my players and me, and no two tables are the same).
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Yeah, whenever Im learning a new game or rule subset, I grab my son, give him a character sheet and say "there are two pirates in front of you" and run the combat. Or spell battle, ship battle etc. It just helps to have a few quick reps. Im talking 10-15 mins worth then I can go back and look up rules I THOUGHT I understood but didn't under pressure.
@@obadiah_v let’s find a time to talk… maybe there is a time when our awake hours line up. I posted a discord server in the “About” area so maybe you could find me there.
I agree with you about shadowdark - I talked with my son and friend from Thailand. We are going to start Shadowdark again, this time with a proper Primer and central theme and premise.
I’d love to hear your thoughts about how to do it right.
Venting with other people is sure a thing that can help to get some of the stress out of one's system. Personally,I find combat in most the systems to be the horrible designed aspect. I have no experience with Wildsea, but from the little I know, I think that might be a great game for exploration, and not for combat. Same goes for Shadowdark. Maybe that is the issue, that you try to use these exploration games for combat heavy style, for which they are not really design. Savage Worlds might in that case indeed somewhat helpful. But the question is do you players actually want a combat heavy game, or could they imagine to play more of an exploration game?
I think being the GM also is somewhat of a learning curve, not everything we see i other media works well in our hobby, combat with hordes of enemies is one such thing, that looks great on film, but there are very few systems that can do that justice. That is why more common in our hobby is to fight against dragons or giants or such single opponent. I run games for more than two decades, and honestly the only combat system that was fun and also could manage hordes of opponents was 4th edition of D&D, the system that many people will tell you is rather board gamey (eve though I had never issues to get role-play out of my players in that system).
Maybe talk with the players (as part o session zero) what kind of game they want to have. Often people can express their interests by comparing what they want to TV shows or films, and if you understand that, then you could look for a system that captures that atmosphere and style. And you might be surprised what people want when they actually tell you and you do not presume to know them.
Hard agree. Part of the reason for starting a system like Wildsea was because the players kept avoiding combat in Shadowdark and wanted to keep everything as a pet. Changing system for that reason, only to start off the campaign by deciding you'll spend your whole time playing pirate hunters having combat encounters on the deck of a ship just seems like it's really confusing matters.
Forged in the Dark system certainly does not handle battles like a traditional TTRPG would - characters are usually above average person's level of competence, combat is handled in narrative instead of clear turns and more often than not quote "Losing is fun" rings true during a singular session.
For that I recommend creating a villain or two, making a clock for them and area of influence where danger peeks and couple of officers - like that combat could have been with a left hand of BBEG's officer related with a fire thus most of their crew would handle flamethrowers or something emberlike.
Next thing - PCs should easily handwave normal mates and only break a sweat with above mentioned left hand or important members of the crew - those would poses more than 1 HP and would be a main target.
Like there's a group of normal pirate mates blocking the way? Roll dice, on 1 earn a wound one of y'all are surrounded , 2 everyone recieve 1 dmg and you are still pursued, above you kill/capture them with a Loss, benefit or not. Meanwhile you are taking the actions under fire, left hand commands the ship (ie. Takes action) and so on and so forth.
Simply lacked a background (reason) why pirates are big deal or why they are there/why we are attacking them - and the scale was not set right. "Superheroes" vs "sea scum" instead of "superheroes" vs "main villain's sideckick" which have hostages so any wrong action is super super dire!
There's a lot of good advice on such games all around the internet since FitD is quite popular like PbtA and "Forge " (idk about third one, I am listening to a hard polish accent saying english phrases with a forced English accent - quite hilarious) and additionally - Blades are quite boardgamey, so that's a plus for you... But the combat focuses more on the narrative stakes and consequences instead of just the swordplay....
To stay motivated I do enjoy the struggle - it's a constant combat with your own fears, weakness and aspects of running the game! And I do belive that if something does not kill me only makes me stronger since I can redo it but better :)
And for above mentioned Blades in the Dark combat ask Marshall or just other players why do they think about being able to always beat down the pirates but the roll dictates if somethig horrible happens or not - like hostages get wounded and also they recive a major setback which will keep their character down for 5 sessions if not mended the session afterwards during some mission to do so (meanwhile evil will be doing their own thing).
Have a great one, mate! Godspeed!
Hmm... towards the "dice cutting topic": I think not cutting any dice is the way to go here. Its not about winning the fight. These systems are more about letting players do the cool stuff they want to do and if they kill off all the pirates this way very quickly - great! I am sure they told a cool little story or scene that way, are happy about having more agency than normal and then as a GM you feel happy for your players... and move on to the next scene.
Also a great thing to do as a GM: give the players problems where you do not know the solution to. Let them deal with a big kraken coming out of the water or shatter their boat and let them wash ashore on a lonely island with monsterous animals and a little cave where they can hide and are safe. Now players have to come up with a sensible explanation (that is probably NOT fighting, cause then they'll proably die), on how to get rid of the problem. And whatever stupid solution your players come up with, you just accept make them look cool, move on and drop the next disaster on them when time comes.
So the best advice: be a fan of the players, make them look cool and remember: these games are no about "winning", they are about "exloring"
I agree you shouldn't cut dice unless it is really crazy sounding, because when you cut dice you take away the highest outcome. If you are cutting the dice you are reducing the chance of success by a greater probability than an extra dice gives. So you should either let your player throw all the dice they want (my suggestion) or don't let them roll as many.
don't worry, be happy - life of brian
take this with a grain of salt as i have never touched that system, i would suggest you tailor your combats to something more simple, have them deal with one opponent per player (since i used to play a lot of gurps back in the day, it is a very rule heavy game from simple mechanics where a single combat between two characters could easily take up towards 8 hours) let the rest of the combat happen as a result of the players actions and story-tell it (i forget what the fancy pantsy word for it is)
also, nothing wrong in taking the dragonbane or other rule systems and creatively mash them into the setting with a little love (or lots of wd40 and tape)
I'm designing my own system with kids and newbs in mind. I'll send it to your way when it's done, you might like it.
@@IrishWriter I would love to look at it.
Two other systems that you can transplant the Wildsea setting into are Genesys and NEW from WOIN (What’s OLD is NEW). I would give NEW the advantage for switching right now because the custom dice Genesys uses are a bit hard/expensive to get ahold of right now.
I think the issue is your players aren’t mature enough players to be able to get interested in Wildsea. There is something to be said about a setting which the players can immediately relate to. That’s why fantasy is the most popular because players of all ages can “grok” it. They know how the universe works innately. I find this the same way in how fewer players (especially younger ones) can’t get into Sci-fi RPGs.
My advice is to start with a bridging genre to slowly adapt them to a different non fantasy genre. I’d recommend trying Mutant Year Zero.
It’s mutants. It’s post apocalyptic. It’s modern. Gritty yet still a bit heroic.
If they take onto this then you can eventually try more wackier settings.
That’s a really good idea. …and I think you might be correct about the setting needing some fantasy to ground the games.
I haven’t looked at or played Mutant Year Zero at all. Could you tell me a little more about the game? How does it play?
It’s a free league game - does it use their D6 system?
There is a difference between mechanics and setting and theme. You need a mechanic that is fairly universal - it has to address talent, training, equipment, tactics, and luck. Talent is ability scores or bonuses, training is a skill level, equipment gives banes or bonuses, there is a bit to do with terrain, tactics is about what the players describe. The last element is a dice roll against some kind of difficulty number. Make the problem solving mechanic quick. Add opposed rolls, add task chains, and progressive difficulty with time constraints.
The thing with skill based games is that they are often about a single class of character - like call of cthulhu, where everyone is an investigator. A Doctor, a scientist, a cop, and a hobo are all investigators and they all share the same pool of investigative skills. This doesn't mean that each PC doesn't have a role to play - like the heavy, the healer, the scientist, and the burgler - but these roles are not a professional expertise. If the characters are all wastelanders then this works, but if the party is designed around the concept of diversity of expertise and the experts get better with performance experience then have classes - this is what the fighter, the magic user, the cleric, and the thief are all about. In sword and sorcery the party has a problem and each expert uses their expertise to contribute to solving the problem.
The problem with wastelanding is that you have to know as a player something about life after the end of the world as we know it, otherwise it is hard to solve problems. I play Traveller and I enjoy it because I know enought about science to solve problems with future science that doesn't exist.
Something to add to a science campaign is net running with cyber decks. This allows players to enter computer systems and holodecks to gain information with real consequences.
I think you have already found your system, Dragonbane.
Just adapt the Wildsea setting to it and be happy.
Personally, I do not like large groups; therefore, I limit my games to up to four players.
Make it simple and easy for you and your players.
In the end, having fun is the goal.
Dude! You and your players are not the problem. You guys like to play in a certain way. Go with that.
Use the setting. Take all the inspiration and cool ideas from it, but use a system that works for your table. Keep it simple.
Take the Wildsea setting and use the ShadowDark or Dragonbane rules. Do not let a system dictate your game or how you feel about your competence as a GM.
Savage Worlds would be a great idea!
First thing I would suggest is just to calm down and take a moment. It's just a game and you are playing with family and friends... so even if it isn't perfect, it is still a positive interaction with people you care about.
Second, maybe you are being harder on yourself than you need to be? I know I have hit many moments in GMing where I felt way worse about how a game went than any of the players. Sometimes, we GMs hold ourselves to a weird standard of "making things fun" for everyone and that gives us a skewed sense of how the game is going.
Third thing, I think I would suggest you pick a single game and stick with it for a while. I have watched a few of your vids and you seem to have bounced from game to game looking for "that game" that will somehow make your table whole.
Listening to you talk, I would suggest a game with pretty clear-cut, GM-driven mechanics for combat and skill resolution. Maybe Dragonbane or Savage Worlds as you mentioned in your video. Keep the back and forth, and the on-the-fly decision making to a minimum for something as simple as a skill check. Since your players like mapped combat, I would commit to mapping combat. Take some time with whatever system you choose, gain some mastery with it so that the battles and the "day-to-day" skill resolution goes as smoothly and quickly as possible.
Final thing is that you seem to want to have more situations that don't involve combat -- more negotiations and creative solutions. That's great, but I would not lean on the rules to try to get this to your table. I recall in another of your vids, you complained about D&D because your 5th level party never needed to negotiate with bandits because they could easily one-shot them. You're right... D&D has always had that problem, but some of that is on you (and your players).
If the issue is that the PCs won't listen when bandits have them at sword point because of the way hit points and powers work -- then yeah, that is a problem of the rules. You can play a game where the power scaling is flat. A lot of OSR games, as well as older games, have a flatter power progression.
If the issue is that your PCs just resort to combat regardless of the system... well then the rules aren't really the issue, right? In a world/genre where violence is an accepted solution, sometimes you need a good reason why violence cannot be the (whole) solution.
-- The PCs recognize one of the bandits as being related to a high-ranking noble. Killing them might be justified, but it would make enemies of the wrong people. Maybe better to know this secret and hold it for future use?
-- All that valuable loot the bandits are carrying? Flammable/meltable. Looks like fireball is out of the question.
-- The bandits have a hostage and they will kill the hostage instantly once battle begins (regardless of initiative). You have to talk or disable the hostage-holder before you can safely engage.
You get the idea... In any case, good luck!
It's okay to be mistaken. You thought Wildsea would bring the changes your table jives with, but for whatever reason, it didn't. That's okay! Feels bad as a GM, I know, but trust me, your table doesn't see it as the disaster you see. Maybe a little janky, sounds like they have growing awareness of how it should flow, but they still got to play with you--and you got them to fall in love with the Wildsea setting. A crap GM does the opposite. ;)
Have your fam/players watch this (unless you feel like you can do it more succinctly face-to-face), and just be transparent with them. You're the GM, but don't forget you are also a player. If one of your players isn't having fun, your instinct is to fix it. If ~you~ aren't having fun, stick with that instinct.
I heartily approve of yoinking the Wildsea setting and using it in whatever system you want. I'm excited for you guys!
Success with a failure mechanics sound great, and they sound better than pass fail. But they are hard as hell to actually play. It's just hard to come with things on the fly, at least for me. For all the really big decisions, ie negotiating with the local lord for whatever you want, I'd make a table with all those good or bads options and roll rather than trying to do it off the top of my head.
I don't know what system you are using. Wild Sea doesnt interest me much. But from what you are describing, I'd play Mutant Crawl Classics or maybe even Pirate Borg as a base. I could honestly play any scenario (including what you describe future apocalypse water themed whatever that is) with Shadowdark, ICRPG, Pirate Borg, OSR or probably even Dragonbane. Find what you like and bend the rules. It's just a D20. Unless you are playing Gurps. :) Or maybe Savage World or Zero Year.
BTW I still like ICRPG for most of it's mechanics for you. There are a few I don't dig but the base is fantastic. (It is also the best GM manual I've ever read.) For friends around the table especially if you have some who don't care as much about rules, that one big die with the DC and everyone around table screaming when the kid rolls a 15 or whatever makes for great fun. Not much granularity but you could do whatever you want with that and add more complex weapon charts, magic items, skills etc. It's LESS granular than Shadowdark though, so it might not be your jam. But it's strength is one quick system to play damn near anything. The book comes with fantasy, weird west, space, apocalypse and something else I cant remember in it.
In many of the cinematic kind of games, basically you are able to kill minions with one hit and only the bosses and lieutenants require several hits. If you think of any scene from Lord of the Rings, Avengers, or anything else, this is the way it works.
Don't panic. If they like it, keep playing and adapt the rules. Whichever rules you liked best and are comfortable with, use that. They don't know anyway. You just tell them roll a d20 and what results.
When you say less Granular than SD, what does that mean?
And by the way, thank you. I really appreciate your advice and constant encouragement. 🙏
@@FamilyTableTop There are some other Professor DM "Secret Number every GM needs to know" videos. They are all worth the time. In the end you are setting a target number and having the kids roll. The other "best resource" to me in addition to Prof DM, and the Index Card RPG DM section, is "Sly Flourish" Lazy DM videos. He has books but the videos will let you dip your toe in. Remember the goal is to have your kids entertained first and foremost. Anything else is gravy.
As soon as I see terms like "edges" and "aspects" in a game system I already know the game mechanics are divorced from the role playing of the character.
lol. My newness to DMing has not given me that sort of insight.
Do you have a favorite system?
@@FamilyTableTop I have had fun with 5e but with a silly amount of hand waiving and homebrew simplifying that it really isn't 5e anymore. About to DM Shadowdark for the first time. From your video, I think you might have a lot of luck just adopting that setting to Shadowdark or Dragonbane.
@@tubebobwil out of curiosity, what is it about the terms edges and aspects that makes you think they'd be mechanics divorced from roleplaying? Any complaints I've heard about Wildsea before now usually has it that there's too much roleplaying, not that there's not enough
@@antomanifesto I kind of mean roleplaying not in the "talk with the NPCs" way but in the "inhabit your character" way ... Which one still can do in a session where zero social interaction occurs with NPCs and might be all combat and/or exploration. I find that games that use regular English language words and ascribe game-mechanic-specific meanings to them (including all of the Powered by the Apocalypse systems), tend to take one out of that role play. The system interferes between the player and the playing of the game. I bet if one hadn't yet read any PbtA-based game rules, and someone through out terms like "edges" and "aspects", I bet that person would have a hard time grasping what is an edge and what is an aspect. FATE system has this in spades too. I also think skilled-based games with a bunch of push-buttons and pull-knobs on the character sheet, interfere between the player and the playing of the game as well. That's my opinion at least.
@@tubebobwilooohh, so do you mean this in the Brennan Lee Mulligan sense of "Just leave the roleplaying entirely to player imagination, and just tell us the rules for things like combat because that's the only bit I need structure for?"
And subsequently viewing edges and aspects as, while roleplay focussed, putting the players into too much of a funnel? Have I got that right?
You only fail if there is no fun had.
Minions are a great idea to keep the combat simpler. It will help them keep focus if there are a few interesting NPCs, and a bunch of fodder. Keep your turns super fast and simple and get the action back to them.
Take a break when you need one. Play a board game.
You might not be giving each system enough time to gel. I just looked through your video catalog and you've jumped systems what, 4 times in 3 months? There have been a couple of games that I've run only one session and decided that they weren't worth our group pursuing. But learning a new game every week or three can be exhausting. Usually when I introduce a new game, I'll plan on a 3 to 6 month short campaign. That give me enough time to absorb the rules, let the players get a feel for things, and discuss and implement any house rules. Try revisiting one that you players enjoyed using this new setting. I agree with wickedly1 that a break may also be in order. take the time to play some board games or prepare some of the crossover materials you may need.
I get the impression that you, like me, are a victim of overchoice . There are a couple dozen games I want to try, and I need to resist the urge to bounce from one to the next. I also get the feeling that you have an interesting mix of players and you want to provide something for everyone. That will take time. I wouldn't call it failure. It's more growth than anything else. And... you're getting your children and some of their friends to try new things and spend more time actually interacting with each other. I commend you for that!
Now I need to co back and watch your Marvel Champions and Crisis Protocol videos. They just got added to my collection.
You are very wise - I think you have accurately nailed a few of my issues. I’m trying to gel together some very different players, I am overly interested in ALL the different systems and the moment I try one that doesn’t meld well - I jump ship a little too quickly.
I’m probably going to go back to Dragonbane or Shadowdark - most of my players really liked those games in a general sense and I think our groups problems would largely be solved by playing with a clear campaign primer.
Thank you.
Too many systems. I understand the urge to switch a lot. Keep in mind that all systems are flexible. i moved from d&d to shadowdark for simplicity for me. My daughter and her friends know only d&d...so we play shadowdark but I just call it d&d to them. I let them create 5e characters but everything i do is shadowdark. Shadowdark is great to start and as players learn more you can always add new mechanics that make it fun for them. Specific advice to try: less prep and just free flow. Try not to have an ending in mind for the scenario...it will keep it fresh for you not knowing what's coming.
That’s good advice. - how do you port DnD characters into Shadowdark?
@@FamilyTableTop just let them make what they want and use harder monsters. Mostly using dnd for combat but shadowdark rules for everything else
Almost sounds like you should all run a tutorial combat to teach yourself how it works. Or atleast one of the kids. Make a character or 2, pit them against an enemy and then go through the rules together. Make notes of things that come up often and run through it until you have a good understanding. Then make a flowchart. like a cheatsheet to give all the players.
It takes time to learn a new system and combat is most often the most ruleheavy portion.
I have a set scenario, a "Halls of Testing", that I use for my group when we're trying out a new system - I tweak it to exercise all the main rules in a system for different situations. We then play through that with throwaway characters, sometimes resetting an area if we think we've missed something obvious or the dice have been "squiffy" meaning that we didn't get to kick all the tyres we should have.
Exactly my Viperian Attack was a combat tutorial and campaign kick off. It taught them the sharp difference between 5e and SD
Everyone keeps commenting that Kids have a hard time with games like wildsea are wrong they get it the best. In more traditional ttrpgs what you do is limited, in wildsea the are not. In a fight with pirates traditional ttrpgs will have you move and attack, maybe did a special ability. Wildsea the combat is open. Every time I run a game of DnD for kids under 12 I ask what they want to do. I always get something crazy like, I want to jump of the wall running past the pirates and kick the captain off the ship. In traditional ttrpgs you can't do this. In wildsea you can, that sounds like a grace with flourush using x skill, but you get a cut for jumping over the crew.
To answer the question first, the same way you stay motivated when learning any new skill. There isn’t anything unique to it. The best method for me is to get in touch with what I love about the hobby and playing.
That said, some are saying you are experiencing burn out. You aren’t. You clearly have motivation to fix the issues but are struggling for solutions because you are looking for something perfect when perfect doesn’t exist. As Matt said, this is an opportunity. My question for you is why are you trying to sabotage the opportunity?
What I mean is this, you are looking for a setting not a system. You found a system your players like in ShadowDark & Dragonbane. You found a setting they seem cool with but don’t like the system as much in Wildsea. But your solution is Savage Worlds, why? It doesn’t make sense to use Savage Worlds to fix the issues you’re having with WildSea if the players like ShadowDark or Dragonbane. Use the system they like. Build the setting to suit the system.
The thing I’ve been trying to convey is setting is interchangeable. Its flavor. Realistically, what’s the difference between a cart and a ship? A ship has gunners? Okay. You can put gunners on a cart or wagon. It’s just descriptive flavor. What’s the difference between traveling under a sun blotting canopy looking for a crash site and exploring the caverns under a mountain? Its flavor and description. You can make any system work for any setting.
So take some time, build a setting, be a player in a system you want to run, and just enjoy the game for a bit. Learn as a player. But most importantly remember why you are doing this and listen to those people above everyone else.
As always, if you want to talk, let me know. I’ll help you build and convert. If you want to be a ShadowDark player let’s find a time.
Just a suggestion... why don't you (not your whole group) join one of the online games on Roll20, say, for the system that you're wanting to run. Play it a few times and see what it's really like before bringing it to your table. That way you'll see some of the wrinkles in the systems and settings before you try making something from the whole cloth. That way it'll give you a bit of a break from being gamemaster for a while too.
P.S. Have you played Savage Worlds before already? Do you know that system well?
I would second this idea, @tabletopfamily let me know if you would be interested in playing as a guest in one of my games.
I third this idea lol
I just lost my comment because I am stupid...but probably for the better.
Seems like
1. you are starting to experience GM burnout.
2. you are putting to much unnecessary pressure onto yourself
Give yourself some slack. Have patience with yourself. Regardless in which system. I feel like you are switching systems too quickly. I didn't properly understand why you felt the need to leave Shadowdark. Did you want to, did your players want to? If the mostly the former, do you feel extra pressured because you made that decision, and now you really need to make it work? (I remember the buy in video)
Not every session must be perfect. To be honest, they rarely are, if ever. What does "perfect session" even mean? There's always some friction. And some sessions are really bad. But that doesn't mean you have to jump to something else immediately. Because even though it might have been a really bad one, you'll still probably have a lot of fun the next time.
Also it seems like The Wildsea is a game with very different underlying assumptions from most the other games you've played. It's normal that takes some time to get used to a new game with a different vibe.
Here's my advice. Go back to D&D - stick with one system only - learn it's rules well, teach your family the rules well, once the rules are becoming second nature, running a session will be simpler, you'll make less mistakes, 'fail' less often, and be able to provide your players a piratical adventure they're after. On Pirates - D&D can make for an awesome system for Pirate fun - there are whole supplements just on pirates available as PDF's for cheap. I think your scattershot approach is the problem. Concentrate on one thing. How do you stay motivated - you set yourself a goal to get better at one part of the game (start with combat!) - each session reflect on ways to improve it (whatever better means to you and your group) and do those. Your motivation as DM is based on creating a cool game that you and your players enjoy. It's not system-dependent.
Take whatever aspects you and your players liked from every system you've played and slap chop them together into your own hodge podge system & play it in the wildseed setting. I thought you guys were trying wildseed because of the pets mechanic in the system? If so can you import the wildseed pet mechanic into shadowdark,Use the shadowdark ruleset and play in the wildseed world?
I think we’re going to try doing your second suggestion - we’re going back to Shadowdark but I’m going to do a better campaign primer, I’m going to add a couple of classes and do a better job of world building.
And one or two of the classes will have useful pets
Honestly, and I am not trying to be mean, but it doesn't sound like your group is embracing narrative type gameplay. Games like Wildsea and Blades in the Dark are a different monster than Shadowdark, D&D, etc. and does take time to get used to. My experience is that some players do not like the freedom these systems give them as they are creatively responsible to develop the scene along side the GM. And the GM has to give up control of the scene. When it all comes together it is an awesome experience, but it has to be with the right group. Personally, I would dump the system and talk to your players, let them choose which way to go (stay with the setting or move back to Dragonbane or Shadowdark). Cause if your players are having fun then the GM wouldn't either.
Or even play a dungeon crawl board game for a more structured experience (1 vs many or full co-op).
I had a failed attempt with running WFRP for my students. They were like heavy carts I needed to constantly push in a specified direction, their characters lacking any internal motivation to explore and seek trouble on their own or creatively solve problems which did not have a solution given on a silver platter.
It was exhausting and felt like a chore. Switching to just playing Massive Darkness 2 worked like a charm :)
Not every system is for everyone. Don't try to find the best game. Find the game that is best for you.
Play what feels natural and is easy for you too run. If you are struggling with a complex/weird mechanic, play something else. Shadowdark can work with any setting, want to catch pirates? Use SD and use the setting, SD rules are easy enough you can whip up creature stats on the fly.
Drop all the books you're reading for a second and read Dungeon World's GM moves chapter.
Your games will never drag again if you internalize the advice on pacing in that chapter.
Wildsea sounds like a mismatch for your table, but you can always graft the world into a different system with a little elbow grease
I'd give wildsea 3 sessions before dropping. Thats a general rule for me.
To help with conversation, try giving each player 3 tokens. Each time they act, have them put it in the center table, and then you (acting as the world or an enemy(s)) take one action, possibly directly responding to them or possibly threatening to shift the battle in a big way or threaten multiple players with a telegraphed bad thing coming next turn.
Once a players out of tokens, they can't act until all players are out of their tokens and everybody gets 3 again
DEFINITELY have small groups of weak baddies share a statblock.
Try to be nicer to yourself, and ask your players how they feel about sessions. I did stars, wishes, and general fun out of 10 after every session. You see your mistakes more than they do and it will help keep you grounded.
GMing is hard, Gming for big groups is hard, Gming for different player styles is hard, and Gming a new system (especially a big departure) is ALWAYS rough to start.
You're doing a tough thing, and it won't be perfect for years. But if everybody is having fun and you're learning every time, you're doing well enough.
Let me just preface this comment with the phrase "neener neener, I told you so."
What did I say? For a refresher: I said stick with Shadowdark for a while. In spite of my own apprehension for the game. You're living in the reason why. I fear the GM ADHD has you.
With that out of the way, I'll make the statement nobody else dare: the grass isn't greener. Chasing the greener grass is what got you into this mess, it will NOT be what gets you out. You're just going to keep dropping the corpses of game systems behind you until you become jaded and lose your sunny disposition. Ask me how I know.
So let me reiterate - stick with one game. If Shadowdark is what has worked best for you, move back to that. Stick with it for a while. A year or two. Pretend other games don''t exist. If there's something wrong with Shadowdark (or whatever game you choose) make a modification. But keep playing it.
Everyone out here on the internet is obsessed with the cult of new. Wildsea is the new new. Dragonbane was the before new, and Shadowdark was before before new. It takes a person standing outside the cult of new to see it for what it is. You're very much being influenced by other's comments, spending a bunch of money on stuff you frankly don't need and overly won't benefit your game any more than what you already have. And you know that's true. The grass is the same shade.
The only way I've found to step out of the cult of the new is to play through.
Good luck.
Eron speaks from experience and I agree with him. Stick with something you have a good handle on (Shadowdark). Dragonbane sounds great, but from what I have read, when characters reach 18 in multiple skills, the game starts becoming trivial. I don't think Wildsea is the solution.
Sunken cost fallacy, if you’re not enjoying it walk away.
Holds up shield = smile on everybody's face. Yeah that's why we're here. lol. Ok. You mentioned you don't like dnd and i am curious about what about the game puts you off. Considering your family is coming from a table top wargaming perspective - I notice a lot of 40k stuff, not other models, why not go for a 40k roleplaying game ? Unless you are trying to branch out into other genre types, in which case what type of genre are you looking for to be different than the wargaming? It might not be the system that is getting in the way. Perhaps the players, except for marshall (sp?), are focusing on the mechanics of the rpg fighting as a more elaborate form of table top wargaming. There are several reasons why an rpg will suggest you not use miniatures: - being just pen, paper and dice it saves money. - many games will emphasize the action over the rules of the story and try not to get bogged down by mechanics. Unless it's a horror game, many games want the players to succeed at what they do , the randomness means not everything will go to plan to generally encourage a wacky, zany good time. In this case the players can put themselves into a situation where they can fail, but, they know about it beforehand and accept it as part of the game. Your characters dieing can be fun in the right situation.
Also, combats will run more smoothly as the players better understand the rules of the game and how their characters can work together to do things. They will get into a rhythm. Initially this can trip you up as a new dm because you are always taking time to consider whether a new action is allowed or not. I would consider having a few short 1 or 2 hour practice sessions (a one off or 2 off) with 3 players to test out the combat system and get people used to using the rules.
The suggestion from others about you playing online a few times to get a better hang of the system you choose is a great one. I would go one step further and find a local game store that hosts drop in sessions and have one or two of your group head in to play with other people to get a feel for what they are doing. Don't go in all at once, 7 of you is a large number for a drop in unless you call in advance to ask about it.
I think leaving Shadow Dark because of one bad game was a mistake. I think if you become indecisive and start trying to hop systems every time things get choppy you'll never improve at running that system. Each jump to a new system has diminishing returns on player buy in. Be careful you don't death spiral. I'd go back to Shadow Dark and learn how to play with that system to make it what you want. Thinking of things in binary success or failure will make the game a chore. Try just have fun with your family making stories. Improvement is good but it's a muscle you're working and it takes time. GM'ing isn't easy especially when you hold yourself to a high standard. Be patient.
I think you’re right, about everything. Jumping systems has definitely upset some of my players. - I’m going to talk with my players and figure out what we would like to play together.
I think either Shadowdark (like you’ve suggested) or Dragonbane because my son and his friend really liked the game.
Thank you.
Will your players let u rotate between SD and Dragon Bane?
This suggestion is based on not knowing how well or how poorly Shadowdark handles outdoor adventures...
To me, based on you prior videos, it seems that your group has a preference towards fantasy. That being said, my suggestion is give a true OSR "D&D" rules based game. These games, like BECMI and B/X handle both outdoor and dungeon settings well. These style rules also handle situations outside of combat well... They also allow for players to place their characters firmly into the world. Best of all, they're not 5e based. 😮
Why don't you sit down with your players and see what you all like form the various systems and make a homebrew that you all like, thus makeing a system that you can put into any setting.
Maybe you're trying too much at once. In a couple of months you've been on 4 different systems. That's a lot. It seemed like Shadowdark was a favorite of yours, but you were afraid players weren't playing the system wrong. If the players are having fun, they're not playing wrong. You talked about stripping a setting and dropping it into Savage Worlds. You could do the same with Shadowdark. There are already a few cool settings for Shadowdark: There's Shadowrim (Skyrim) and Shadowsun (based on the old Dark Sun campaign from D&D) and Celtic Shadows (Celtic mythology strapped onto Shadowdark). One or a couple of those could be great examples of sort of how to do it. Many settings are system agnostic, especially so if you are willing to do a little conversion. Write your own Shadowdark based on a pirate setting (or whatever Wildsea is, I've never looked into it) and turn your players loose.
Are all your players reading the rules to a level enough that they are at least familiar with how things work for them at the table? I'm not sure, but it sounds like you are carrying all the weight all of the time. The more you can offload some of the responsibility will help. Feeling helpless running a new system that your players haven't played before either sounds like par for the course.
On another note you've got a bunch of players that seem to have different things they want from playing, would running two different groups ever be an option to you? Dm'ing a large group is hard enough when everybody is on the same page. And remember you are their to adjudicate rules and help with the flow, you aren't a chaperone! There needs to be some responsibility of the players too in this hobby.
I think you are trying too hard.
I notice you are going pretty hard on hand crafting a lot of ambitious things before you even start a game. If you like Shadowdark, play through some of the Cursed Scrolls, there is some built in setting in those, or steal from any setting you like, Greyhawk is a good one. Play some published scenarios. The Dragonbane Campaign from the box set is great. The Wildsea has published starter scenarios as well. You are a new GM, you are trying new systems. Do yourself the favor of learning to walk in a system before trying to do a Triathlon.
In movie terms. Just do Star Wars and see how it goes. Don't try to do all 9 films at once. Savage worlds is great, but for real, try something stock at a lower level of GM prep if you are feeling overtaxed and frustrated. If you want a Savage Worlds setting with ships in an odd post disaster setting, track down Sundered Skies, there is a load of stuff for it.
You are very correct - I was just thinking the same thing this morning. I am trying it run before I can crawl.
Thank you.
Play Mythras
It seems like all you are doing is running games for others. Do you play in any? If not, then do that. Nothing motivates me more for my campaign than playing in another.
That’s a good suggestion.
I have started playing in several games now. - playing Pirate Borg and Savage Worlds.
Trying to start a pendragon game
Are you sure that a TTRPG is the solution you're looking for? Maybe a tactical boardgame?
With 6 other players, including a remote one? That's a tall order! People will get bored waiting for their turn.
Well.. youtube keeps deleting my comments for some reason. I guess I'm done.
must keep short and sweet since deletions are happening. Dolmenwood is the solution, its the BEST TTRPG bar none.
Hey, I commented on your last video about Wildsea, I know exactly what you're talking about. Discord link didn't work for me but I'd love to chat, I may have some insight.