I've used one page primers (Lazy DM style) for a while now, just a stripped down version of what your talking about. Shorter because players will often not read anything more then a single page, or at least not absorb the information. I use single paragraph descriptions with headings like; The system, The setting, The factions, 6 truths your characters knows about the world, etc. My own twist on this, for shadowdark in particular is to make sure the document is expressly targeted at my players (not their characters). I want them to read it, and feel familiar enough with the setting that they can think of multiple characters that would work well in the game. I try to set their expectations, but also be confident to add their own ideas about places, species, and the lore surrounding them. I use the document as a chance to express the subjects I'm excited about DMing, while also asking about their interests thematically and mechanically.
Yes I have had that feeling. In pf2e I just wasn’t having fun running it and I couldn’t place my finger on it. Then I came across a Matt Coleville video where he was talking about 3e and now people loved how logical it looked at first, but after years of playing people started to realize how cumbersome the system was and lots of people were just straight up not doing certain things in game because it was too much to keep track of while play. And that was a lightbulb moment for me. Also what you explained is very common in the hobby. It’s because people make characters disconnected from the setting and group. I long ago tackled this issue by doing a session 0 where we all make characters at the same time. I tell my players they need to build their characters connected to each other and to the setting. Then I hand a primer out and I go over the primer with the, because I know not everyone I’ll read it. It’s a one page tells you everything you need to know primer. Then I sit there and brainstorm with them why their characters care about each other, and the world they’re in, and what their over all goals are. I started doing this after a session I had where I legit had a player mid session saying “I don’t even know what my character is doing here or why he cares.” I asked why he didn’t make a character connected to the setting or party. He said because I didn’t give guidance in it. I’ve never had this issue since 😅
That primer is a new one to me. It's appears to be a typed version of the setting pitch. "Hey, I have an Idea for a fantasy setting, here's what I think..."
I actually just made a primer for my players last week, right before our 5th session. They had trouble adapting to the OSR playstyle for Shadowdark, so I wrote down some OSR basics and also put into writing setting elements they may have forgotten. They are all part of a mercenary company tasked with protecting and exploring the frontier. So I made it a bit more explicit that while I have some jobs they can choose to take within the company, they can go explore and map out the new land. I didn't detail any races because as they discover new civilizations they will get to come up with how the races see each other. The first session we played after I gave it to them went very well and they said they enjoyed everything I gave them.
@@FamilyTableTop Sure, its a bit different than the primer you describe in this video because I didn't really know what a primer was. Just something I slapped together to help my group out a bit. docs.google.com/document/d/1oMn1IlYg4NfU1dK0zvnhbxKHnKrtqmUydihQ4FipfaI/edit?usp=sharing
@@FamilyTableTop Sure. I didn't know what a campaign primer was when I made it, but it fits pretty well even if it is missing a few things the one you're showing has. docs.google.com/document/d/1oMn1IlYg4NfU1dK0zvnhbxKHnKrtqmUydihQ4FipfaI/edit?usp=sharing
When Pathfinder did their adventure paths they released a primer on that arc and it gave the players information on where they're starting with a number of options to explain why they're there. When I ran my last game I was about to set up an interlude as I didn't run a session zero since it was set in response to another player's game which he messed up. They start after an incident resulted in a wave of monsters being released a large sized manticore and loads of pygmy manticores think house cats with a tail spike able to cause sleep in whoever hit. One pair were half elves consisting of a performer (Sorceror) his manager (Rogue) and their backing band (Rogue's guild of 4 Bards). The cleric was an acolyte brought into the situation in response to a scene that provoked the subsequent civil uprising with him led to the others after an attack on the cathedral that revealed the clergy has been usurped by an evil sect with that cleric being one of the few survivors. The Paladin was mourning the loss of his mentor and ends up having to take charge at the shrine they meet up with each other as the entire city goes to war as the bad guys try to secure the city. There's an attempt to send the city into the Shadowfell which is narrowly thwarted at the apparent cost of the Paladin's mentor's mother being banished in her efforts to counter the ritual being cast. Teaming up they work together to reach the King's mansion and accidentally thwart an attempt to free Vecna from the Shadowfell. Following this they're sent on a misison to locate the missing heirs and just ignore everything I've been saying and go looking for the prince and not the princess. Had planned to shift the setting into a domain of dread as I couldn't get them to let go of the rails! Sorry I understand what they're saying and was in the same situation but the other player didn't give a damn about either campaign so it didn't go anywhere. Best wishes with your campaign!
I'm going to slip this in here: ua-cam.com/video/MtH1SP1grxo/v-deo.htmlsi=-xDee_QeY1rHBkys Matt Colville (several years back) set up a series about how to run ttrpgs and get going right away. There's a few things he presumes about it in the beginning of the series, but eventually covers most things. One of them is the campaign pitch document (this is technically the thing the primer comes from). The pitch says, "I want to run these types of games: (a, b, c), which are you interested in?" As part of that pitch, you include the basics of the world that provides everyone with the context for the game. In other words, the setting basics. "Dark fantasy = everything is bleak. Your adventuring party is comprised of vagrants. Etc." The campaign primer takes it a step further and places more of the world-building in the GM's hands by defining things for the players. This may be useful for some groups who are newer to roleplaying or not as open to appearing foolish in their creativity, whatever the case may be. In more collaborative groups where everyone knows where the boundaries are, you can skip this because the basics of tone & purpose provides enough guidance to the player where they won't derail the game by saying they are a Care Bear character in your grim dark setting. Instead, they may say "my goblin was part of a small tribe or village who was bullied because he had floppy ears and he wanted to be a knight. During a game of jousts, the shield shattered and the lance pierced his lung. His peers left him to die scared when a dryad patched the hole. He became a druid under her tutelage. Now, he joins the party so he can protect the forests and seek revenge against his peers after he gets stronger." Tonally, everything still matches, the details aren't too specific to invalidate any of the world and it gives the GM some hooks to work with for designing some adventures. Such as, maybe one of the peers runs a mine and needs it investigated or cleared of gnolls. Now our goblin knows where one of the targets is for their ambition. All of which is built without a campaign primer document, but the players all knowing where the boundaries are enough with one another not to go overboard in the setup. A lot of campaign setting books are primers. And also mostly go unread because there's a point where it's too much information for the players and overwhelms them. 2-4 pages is enough. Kobold Press does a really good thing in their book about Midgard where they go "the 7 things everyone knows about the world: 1) dragons are...." That is really all you need. And maybe something a little more defined for the starting locale.
The more I listen the more I believe that this premier thing is a lot like the pages used at conventions to introduce players to the session, players who are strangers to each other and the GM. Most players start the game understanding the setting, etc. Usually via session zero.
Salvage the session: The evil threatening the next town succeeds; then ... (people start going missing who leave the PC's town; strange magics seen in the distance; horrible rumors follow people fleeing other town; (OR) the leaders of the town the PC's are in come to the PC's in hopes of finding out what's going on in the next town; or, to recon said town, etc. Sounds like you've got plenty to work with.
8:50 Something that I have embraced over the decades when it comes to maps is to 'not' give or provide the players a map. They may attempt to purchase one, but it'll be very vague (not like Rand McNally is a thing in fantasy settings, eh?) maps if I do. I do keep one for myself, and a log; a GM log is very important (but I'm old). That said. Maps on walls are different. I have often pinned up maps that came with a game, but I leave them pinned up. I don't write on them either.
A vague map (or no PC map) makes it easier for PC input to fill in and flush out settings, and helps draw the players in deeper the more they are involved in the sandbox shaping.
My players have a hard expressing character consistency or traits too. I've found success with taking time before a session starts to have them roll a d100 and ask a randomized question for them to answer. We assume this is information they'd have discussed along their travels. In game, I like to give them moments of expression such as "how do you contribute to setting up camp?" Or "what reoccurring dream do you have this long rest?. This has helped them find their characters and often times gives me ideas for personalized sessions or story beats.
@@vincentmiller9555 those are really good ideas! I like the way you engage your players with open ended questions. Is there list of questions you use - like a random table?
Sit down and do this with your players, you have 2 goblins, ask the goblin players to tell you about goblins. Your son did some art on the stream, ask him to create a coat of arms for some of the factions. The more ownership they have the more they will engage with the world. As a DM you are allowed to let the players help you with the world. You mentioned having to come up for a way to introduce a new character to the party. I would have said "you come around the passage and there is a figure in front of you, it looks familiar, how do you recognise it?" Let the players decide why they should team up. The players can save you prep time.
One thing I realize I've been taking for granted in most of the games I play is character creation systems tie people into the world, whether it's a part of character creation to make everybody think about how they relate to the other characters or if your character sheet has weird little flavor options you have to pick to make a character in the first place. On a slightly related note, when you're thinking about the guilds it can be interesting to write down a couple different reasons why that guild might be tied to a pick'n'mix adventuring party. Like the Crimson Banner: "Occasionally officers of the banner will commission a free company. Rumor has it this is how Lord Gostok sorts out who's fit to lead." "Those who perform such a commission excellently might find themselves invited to Lord Gostok's service." "Those who chafe under Lord Gostok's orders sometimes strike out for a free company, hopefully without giving too many people a reason to chase them down."
@@FamilyTableTop I tend to rotate one- and two-shot stuff. Most Fate and PBTA games will do the "how do your PCs relate to each other" during character creation, while John Harper's stuff - Blades in the Dark and Agon/the Paragon engine tends toward the "tie yourself to the world as part of character creation" angle.
If you want to see an example of the Lazy DM campaign prep, Sly Flourish has recently published 2 videos on his UA-cam channel where he goes through the steps for his new dragon empire campaign.
Im going to try this again. I couldn't edit the last one so I deleted it. It's a game. I think you are overthinking it. You're playing with two tweens and an eight year old, right? They aren't thespians, right? I really doubt their goals are roleplaying and creating dramatic events. Just give them some cool encounters and let them roll dice. They want to kill orcs and get magical treasure. Or perhaps at least I did. I started playing as a tween with a bunch of other tweens. We had just read Tolkien and we played our D&D with the goal of killing orcs and maybe a balrog if we got powerful enough. Our first few adventures followed this serious path. Then we played with varying mindsets, just enjoying a zany funhouse dungeon or two, some grimdark, a Conan lite or two, pirate-y sea adventure, and a slapstick adventure sort of King Arthur-ish initially with us playing the knights of the oblong table such as Sir Cumference, Sir Cumcision etc. We also played Gamma World, a space game, Boothill (but got tired quickly after playing a boothill scenario or two and made it Weird West with magic and of course orcs to kill) then Top Secret. Unless they really WANT some immersive environ, just let them have their fun. Roll new characters maybe. Let them explore. An analogy is playing a video game like Skyrim, getting to the end then replaying as a different type character the next time, speed running, or whatever. The players changing their role playing or not doing what I wanted or thought they would do in a situation shouldnt really be a concern for the DM unless they are a holy cleric killing people or whatever. More importantly, I would not bother with 4 pages of world building unless they WANTED it. I usually start with one starting point town, usually, and a few adventure site options. I don't even think about the rest of the world they may choose not to see. In many way "world building" is a bit like people who do "character building" but never play with the characters. A game or form of entertainment within itself. If I am going to do world building, it will be presented piecemeal. They don't learn about the fighters guild until they encounter someone who is in it, or receive some fetch quest that is related to it, etc. A lot of the plot threads are still fuzzy to me at the start of the adventure. I plan the next adventure ahead, and a lot of the plot threads are still fuzzy to me at that point. I will develop them as the game moves.
I agree in principle with you, and I agree that the bulk of this primer (labeled as "Supplementary Information") is from my own worldbuilding initiative. I do think that having even a few labels of things that exist gives people something to build on though. I'm going to the dungeon because (thing). There's still TONS of flexibility in my campaign, especially farther from the starting town, but the players at least have something that differentiates the world from generic Fantasy Land.
@@chevronred You no doubt know your table. With some, it's what they want. But it is hard for us to remember being a new player when even figuring what is the d4 and what is the d20 is still a big deal. I play with a lot of newer players like that and they are often overloaded quickly, which is also why I prefer Shadowdark over big 5e.
I probably had 20 years ago issues and did not knew how to handle them, but honestly I cannot remember any specifics. I read lots of theory stuff, the GM sections in all the books I could get hold of. UA-cam was not a thing yet, so I went regularly on conventions, and played games in brick and mortar stores to see how other people play the games. After all practice is great to master any activity. I do primers at least since the late 00s, not sure when I really started with that, before that I used Preludes. Preludes are from the old World of Darkness games, and I assume they might still in the newer editions. It is the idea that instead of telling the players what the world is about, you simply play with each one part of their backstory as one-on-one game. That usually worked well to establish personal motivations and ties for the characters. Also, instead of primers it is also possible to have shared worldbuilding, before the campaign. Many PbtA systems approach it that way. Thus when the players themselves establish the organisations and the conflicts they wat to see in the setting, the they can usually play more proactive, since the setting is then just as much theirs as it is yours. And nothing gets players as invested in the setting as having the feeling it is truly theirs. Sure, I could help on a Discord server, but I cannot promise to be super reliable, since I struggle with chronic depression, which leads on occasion to times in which I stay better off the internet for a few weeks.
The issue that you just had is *exactly* the reason why good setting books don't just tell you the lore of the setting, but give you clear, evident and actionable hooks and themes that you can pitch into the campaign primer. In my years GMing and playing the game, the biggest issue I have found was fighting the feeling of playing in a shapeless, grey void that I-the-player have nothing to latch on to get involved.
As a bonus point, it *might* (keyword: might. I'm not at your table, I don't know your players xD) be that, rather than being bored by the setting or the rules, your players simply were not given a solid and clear enough reason to *care* about what happens on stage, hence the feeling of playing in an amorphous, grey void ^^ A campaign primer would work wonders in not just keeping them focused on the game, but also *clued in* on it.
To be fair. Identifying an issue and dealing with it in the first 9 sessions is great. The game I left earlier this year was a year old. DM had a primer. and then promptly sent us a couple thousands years into the future where none of it mattered anymore :P Im currently working on my own primer for a few games I want to run. They're usually 2-3 pages long but I also have a master document if they want more information.
@@FamilyTableTop our characters woke up inside our own coffins, in a hidden crypt. and we stuck out like a sore thumb. While an intressting start, the issues arrived quickly and they ever got resolved sadly.
If you have characters that are putting in time to create backstory and do some world building. Reward them by making their work canon and modify or toss out your campaign ideas that don’t mesh with theirs. Player’s willing to put in the extra effort are worth their weight in gold. Of course this rule of thumb works best for setting details they don’t know about yet.
I've used primers a lot. It was especially useful in worlds where rules are different. A quick example is my most recent campaign where arcane spellcasters (wizard, sorcerer, witch, Magic User) are hunted down and killed. Magic users didn't use spellbooks. Spells are in the form of tattoos and can be gotten in the Thieves' Guild. That was a change from ordinary rules and so was needed in a background primer/introduction. My biggest problem is one you covered before: Not rolling in the open and fudging in favor of my players.
Writing a campaign primer is one of the chapters in Arbiter of Worlds. The chapter goes into detail on a method of writing a campaign primer. I know that I have a personality that "digs in" when someone keeps suggesting the same book/show, but in this case, I really think that book will put your on the path of becoming a great GM. Lots of highlightable material in it's pages.
After hearing this video fully, we really should just have a conversation on Discord for a bit because i recognize some problems I went through when I first learnt to GM and I see you are falling for the same traps that may eventually lead to you &/or maybe family members walking away from TTRPGs like I did for years.
Always do a session zero with your players and have them tell you who their characters are what their backstory will be and bring your campaign into that. See if their backstory connects to each other. And go play Castles and Crusades. Go to Troll lord games your players can do a lot in it
@@FamilyTableTop 5th ed D&D is what Castles and Crusades wants to be rules wise but Castles come out first with their siege Engine System. (No Skills no Feets) Checks made against Primary Attributes have a CB of 12, while checks against Secondary Attributes have a CB of 18. This makes it significantly easier to succeed at a check if you have a Prime in the ability in question. Easy to run and players know what their characters special abilities can do but still come up with anything they can think of to do based on their Primary and Secondary Attributes. They had a kickstarter for the 3 main books this year and should be coming later this year. But what's kool about the system is it still plays the same just slightly different from when they first came out in 2004. They have a Free Players Handbook in their website at Troll Lord Games. You can watch their videos on UA-cam talking more about the game and system.
01:20 A chaotic character doesn't just go around doing random things. A chaotic character values freedom of the individual over the law of the land or "social convention". They will follow the law of the land, or social conventions if it suits them. They can, and will, plan and execute their plans methodically, but those plans my incorporate unconventional elements or may be doing things that are generally unacceptable to society. They will probably be better at improvising when things don't go to plan, but a lawful character may have thought through all of the contigencies and just "Go to Plan B" when Plan A falls apart.
Maybe your players are just new to role playing games and/or not used to role playing. Some players will never role play regardless of hand holding, positive reinforcement and endless role playing opportunities. You don't need a lore dump to begin your campaign, it is better to introduce the most salient points as they become relevant to the players. However, explaining that you will be playing with hex-crawling up front is essential. That being said having both quest hooks and time limits are essential to good DM'ing.
I am playing in a game where the DM asked for 2 things about the world from each of the players. One about the players and one about the world. My wife's was there are two rivers that surround the city and every fall there is a festival. Mine was my father is a crime lord that runs his organization out of a tea house. The other one was the festival is for the harvest and afterward the beasts of the realm become more aggressive. So instead of do it all yourself, you can have your players create things in the world with one tying their character to the world.
There's no shame is switching campaign settings or rules systems when you feel that the one you've been playing has run its course for you. A campaign primer is definitely useful, but if you're looking for options, so is cooperative world building. You could look for co-op world building games like Microscope, Kingdom, The Quiet Year, or Dawn of Worlds. After one session of playing those games, all your players will be invested in the campaign world, because they helped create it. Wildsea looks pretty cool, but if you need a game system that's low-prep, but allows for customizable character options, you should take a look at Tiny Dungeon (or it's various Tiny D6 spin-offs).
@@G-Funk42 thank you for all of the suggestions- I haven’t heard of most of those games. I will add them to the list. Do you have a favorite system for cooperative world building?
ideally, the players need to know what their characters would know. Sometimes this means a brief history of the universe, sometimes it just means the things they have learned in the tiny mountain village where they have all grown up. You definitely need to include all the character types you will accept and all the ones you won't. And yeah, any facts that might make PC A not get along with PC B. The best example of a general cultural background is the texts that Chaosium created for RUNEQUEST 3rd Edition called "What my Father Told Me". I can no longer find a text to download online but they contained enough inforamtion about each culture featured in the game to let you play a newly adult person: who your culture revered and who they hated, what was honourable and what was dishonourable, what you believe happens after death and much more.
@@johnmichaelcule8423 that’s a really good idea - “what my father told me” is also a helpful framing for the characters having faulty information about the world
Sounds like the players are still exploring; learning what they can do, or, they are realizing that their character's can actually take on lives of their own, which is surprising if your just discovering that
I think I understand what you mean - It's taken us a long time to learn how to really play TTRPGs. Is that correct? If that is what you're saying, I would agree. I think the problem is that I came into DMing in the same sort of way that I try to learn board games. I learned the basic rules and then I started playing with people. Since the game was "working" I didn't really try that hard to keep learning. And also, we were still rotating several different games on Saturday nights - Only recently (last couple months) I decided that I really want to focus on TTRPGs. This channel was initially going to focus heavily on Wargames - But then I started to notice the benefits of the RPGs over the Wargames. Does all that make sencse?
@@FamilyTableTop Yes. Wargames tend to be simpler for many; they are mostly 2 dimensional, while RPGs can spread across many facets of life in general. What I mean about players learning about their characters. Consider this. If you play the same character long enough, you start to notice that the character has a personality. Often quite different from the players. The player starts to learn that the character, through actions or words, may 'do things different' then they, the player would. It's really a cerebral thing. Like you said, a player discovers they like making maps; where another player realizes that their character is better a picking locks then the groups rouge. Or, a character's background opens windows and doors for connecting factions, settings, NPCs, etc, in the game, making the experience richer; more intimate to the player. It also makes it 'more real' when a character dies in game. Some players get cheesed, others indifferent, or so they'll say.
What a fantastic tool this is! I'm in a very small group playing in a supers game and I think we could benefit tremendously from something like this. Thanks to @chevronred for creating (and sharing) it and @Table Top Family for bringing it to our attention. Awesome!
That's very kind of you! I made it out of genuine worldbuilding love. I think the real "service" to the players comes from condensing the information as much as possible, which can be hard if you really like going on and on and on....
Instead of "restarting" whole cloth... have you considered "leveling them up" and having them go to a new location a bit further away? (like 2 squares away, it doesn't have to be much) Then Nate narrates, "A few years have passed since you saved the children in the Shadowdark. You have gone off to have adventures of your own and you discover you have run into familiar faces again in a new location a bit further from home. Before we arrive at this new area with a new access point to the Shadowdark, let me give you some backstory on this area and I want you to tell me more about yourselves and perhaps the background of allies you may have made or factions you might have joined." You could even advance the story saying, "You have rescued other children and discovered there are other towns also experiencing this problem. It's much bigger than you originally thought." Because remember that at the beginning this Primer might have been too much for you too handle and your players would have been overwhelmed with it. I don't think you messed up. I think you're following a natural path many DM's and players go through. Besides... if you phrase it as "Leveling up" you have a great excuse to throw new, more powerful monsters at the players. muhahahaha!
I’ve been thinking about this a lot too - trying it figure out how to keep things going in this world and setting. The thing that keeps occurring to me is that my players keep trying play a deeper system than Shadowdark. I would have to add quite a bit into the game in order to get my son and Landon interested again. The story is totally disconnected from the characters but that isn’t my only issue. Do that make sense?
@FamilyTableTop That is absolutely fair. If you don't want to lose the world and setting but feel a more in-depth system is needed then you can switch perspectives and tell an ongoing story from maybe the King's view as he sends out new Knights (the new player characters) or the blacksmith's guild or what have you, depending on the type of characters they want to use and the new system chosen. Or simply "there are other problems being faced by different people in this land." A person with different priorities might describe the same world in a different way, revealing other sides to this world that you hint at when you're building your new Primer. (e.g. a Tourist map shows Tourist Trap locations, while a topographical map might show a small trail you have to bushwhack through to get to a remote pristine lake, while an adventurer's map might show dangerous monsters in various areas) If you think you have reached the end for sure, then maybe write a little synopsis ending or frame your first map or something to close the book on this area for you. Don't underestimate the quick paragraph closing. I've found great closure in games with a tidy email saying "and this is the final details of what happened" (this was after I had a session where I asked the players how their stories finished) because it also allowed me to vent some secrets I hadn't used or didn't explain well (and make sidenotes for myself of secrets to save for a future game). I've finished a map that was only partially drawn as closure also. Finally, consider running a one-shot (or three-shot) as a palate cleanser. It's the spooky season and spooky games are often best as a one-shot so that you can have the lone survivor at the end. The Scream Movie is a fantastic template for a horror one-shot, especially if you have multiple monsters or baddies in case the first one gets taken out by the players. Switching it up like this also can refresh interest.
"Players Too Zany 2: Electric Boogaloo" 😁 Do Character Creation with open-mystery questions that are NOT resolved. (I listed a few on the other video) No backstory is as exciting as something uncertain that still haunts them. If you wrote Zuko as "He is on a quest to capture the Avatar, and restore his honour", well, there's not a lot to build on there, no matter how cool the world is. A robot could hunt the Avatar. But his scar coming from his own father, his Uncle feeling shame for not defending him, and "destiny chosen for him" all made for an incredible, unsettled, character arc. Zuko grew from that uncertainty. He would have been boring as just a relentless Terminator character. Your flip-flopping player doesn't sound compelled by anything unsettled. The setting can set up dramatic conflict, but the setting is not the character. 💪
04:11 In my SD game it's so horror my players are afraid to split up even for buying nails!!! In the game I play my Half Elf Paladin the DM permitted chaotic wandering, we see how that ends. It's not really Narrative or Teamwork I know I ran loads of CoC . It's Mission, when they know the stakes they don't do dumb stuff like steal horses or rob liquor stores, they fear Saruon.
I think that is an impressive document, but I don't think it is going to work for every group. At first glance, it seems like it would fit real well for a group of people who have never met, but maybe not as well for a group of friends and family. Alternatively the document might serve as an agenda for a session 0. I know you've got another candidate for a system, but I'm going to mention Worlds Without Number again. Simple builds, but there are skill and ability benefits for leveling. But I'd also suggest running a series of one shots with your group and see which systems you connect with more. Games like Traveller make character creation a group activity and while it can ban adjustment, the players end up connected to each other and understand their motivations. Also... super looking forward to a discord server. There have been many times where I thought, "it would be easier if I could talk to this guy over discord". Not in a persuasive sense, but more efficiency in communicating.
Interestingly, I designed this for people I've been GMing for for years now! They're very close friends. The "introductory" kind of thoughts presented are threefold: I'm setting expectations for a new style of play to them(OSR), I am differentiating my campaign from other campaigns GMed in my group, and I am differentiating this campaign from the last (5e) one. So while the players know me and I know them, there are elements of the game that still need introducing.
Character goals are good, but maybe make all the players have the same long term goal for their characters. They could all have different short and mid term goals. Sounds like the world building has factions, which is nice. Also great no map, let the players make their own. Only really dislike the pre-built race lore, like players to make that up for themselves.
This is one of the problems with playing D&D and other fantasy games without a strong setting associated with it. Just look up different RPGs based on a world setting that sounds really cool and play one of those. Many times the game mechanics in those are well suited for the themes in that world, so they may sound odd when compared to a generic fantasy setting like D&D or Shadowdark that are super popular. There is a big difference between having a little info on a few regions or just having a 3 session adventure compared to a full world that piques the imagination of the players and GM. It gives the player something to read to understand the world and where their character fits into it. The big problem is finding a game with a setting that everyone in your group likes. I loved Earthdawn and so did a couple other players in my group, bit another two didn't like it at all and obviously the campaign was not successful. Good luck!
It sounds like your players are a little bored and listless, like they don't know what they should do. The World Primer may help if your players latch onto aspects of the world and run with that. But it may not work. Ultimately players and characters need motivation and goals, especially for longer campaigns. Some players create their own motivation and goals without any prompting. And then it is up to you as a GM to make those motivations and goals matter. For other players you will have to nudge them towards some kind of goal. The Primer could do that as they see how their characters can fit into the bigger landscape of the world and how they can affect it. But it could be as simple as having an NPC that they care about needing help. Or the character wants to develop something, like a guild or become important. Alternatively, Shadowdark has the Titles feature that increase as you get to higher levels. Show how that impacts the world. Have people or factions seeking them out, giving them recognition, and looking to them for direction or to solve problems.
What you're going through as well is the bigger explation as to why some rule books have "lore" and "the why these machanics are in" that you felt like didn't help you at all. Shadowdark is a true "setting angostic" game it seems so that's why it could cut down "all that fat" that you were so fustrated with Dragonbane and other systems. That "Fat" is actually explaining how you could build a world around the machanics in a way that feel more "oomph" to the players and why they are playing the system in the first place. I do get though why you just wanted to focus on the "basic rules" at the beginning because you didn't realize that there's a lot more to storytelling than just a simple board game. That Primer (which is actually new to me personally so thank you for making a video explaining it more) is makes storytelling elements very digestiable for players and honestly is a great tool. I'm used to what is in the primer is actually talked about in the session 0 straight away. I will argue though you could have still have your players start from the less danger place, but what would have been benifical is have them go to the bigger town and learned of the bigger threat and explained that was why your children were going missing. The storytelling elements is also why I was explaining some of the inspos I had were actual novels because it taught me the fundementals what makes a good story for people. I do agree though maybe you could have actually given more connection between what each race is dealing with and what makes them uinque for the players to work with much like what that primer did. I hope this means you can have a lot of fun with building out something that is fun for you and your players in a way that is digestiable and fun in the future. I sure did with the Cursed World setting and I'm having loads of fun with my Hinsay Setting, even if one of my Hinsay oneshot players think I'm "doing too much" xD. But it helps me know that I can just throw in a nugget of intrest for the players if I'm personally seeing the dead ends are getting monotious. or the empty rooms in that matter.
Thank you for explaining all of that. I think you’re totally correct - the very thing I was complaining about in Dragonbane and DnD was the lore being mixed into mechanics. But when that thing is missing there’s something the DM needs to create.
@@JScottGaribay hello Scott, how’s it going? I understand what you mean… why would I leave DnD just to play Shadowdark - just to get frustrated with Shadowdark… You’re right: I am trying to solve a problem that I made for myself. Regardless of my feelings about Shadowdark, I am very happy that we switched from DnD to Shadowdark. My players have all told me that they really liked playing Shadowdark more than DnD. DnD characters were too complex for my players. Now that I know my players generally prefer simple systems over complex ones - I’m going to find a system (probably Wildsea) and create a campaign primer for the game. I will probably allow my players to help me build the story and world this Saturday. It sounds like you think this idea is a mistake… is that right? What about this idea seems bad to you?
@@FamilyTableTop I’m doing well. Thank you for asking. I really love your channel because it is exciting to see someone excited about Fantasy TTRPGs. But at the same time I am so fascinated to see you making so many mistakes. You are writing a primary (going to take a lot of effort) and your fantasy world will end up being a pale shadow of what you would have gotten if you stayed on DND. Forgotten Realms is Phandolin and Waterdeep and Neverwinter. Cities that you can read stellar one paragraph summaries of or entire books that detail them really well. It just breaks my heart to see you invest time and effort to make something that will be far worse than the detailed, built, epic Forgotten Realms. And I think the people who suffer are your players. Your struggling to master rules and table play and then on top of that your spending valuable time cycles to build a subpar fantasy setting. It just does not make sense to me. All that said - watching you attempt all this is very compelling content. Also I know your heart is in a good place. I am just a little heartbroken to see you spending energy on things that do not deserve that energy the way DND does. As always, thank you for this video. I did enjoy it.
@@FamilyTableTop Also I gotta say - I don't understand how you expect your players to take Shadowdark seriously. You guys don't even have printed books. It just communicates amateur hour to everyone at the table. You say you don't like DND but if you were playing DND now your players could have real books - and not just regular books but books that have world class art, writing and layout (freshly updated with new everything). I think you have problems because Shadowdark cannot handle the weight of a real campaign (which is what you are trying to run).
@@JScottGaribay thank you Scott. You might be right - this might be another huge failure. I think that might be part of the process for me - for me, failure is the best teacher. I’ll let you know how things go, and I might even have to say “Scott told me so…” - I hope not, but we’ll see.
@JScottGaribay I'd be very interested to watch a video from you about the merits of using Forgotten Realms over a homebrew/DM-created campaign setting!
OK - first up front - you are a smart guy - I get that - but I cannot believe you think this going to work to engage your players. You think that you filling out a tax document about your campaign world and then assigning the reading of that tax document to every player is going to engage your players? It very much will not. I am stunned that your believe this will work.
@@FamilyTableTop sure that big long document that looks super boring and is filled with a bunch of minutia that should be communicated to your players. Not through black text but through the narrative in a way that's winsome and enjoyable. Your campaign primer is a tax form! Reading that thing is going to feel like homework because it is homework. No fun blah terrible.
@@JScottGaribay lol - you’re so genuinely funny Scott. I really like reading your messages. You’re right - my players might find the document dull. I’ll try to keep my info short and then I’ll read it to them.
I've used one page primers (Lazy DM style) for a while now, just a stripped down version of what your talking about. Shorter because players will often not read anything more then a single page, or at least not absorb the information. I use single paragraph descriptions with headings like; The system, The setting, The factions, 6 truths your characters knows about the world, etc.
My own twist on this, for shadowdark in particular is to make sure the document is expressly targeted at my players (not their characters).
I want them to read it, and feel familiar enough with the setting that they can think of multiple characters that would work well in the game. I try to set their expectations, but also be confident to add their own ideas about places, species, and the lore surrounding them.
I use the document as a chance to express the subjects I'm excited about DMing, while also asking about their interests thematically and mechanically.
@@kumithebear I like your twist on the idea - could you explain how you specifically target the players?
Yes I have had that feeling. In pf2e I just wasn’t having fun running it and I couldn’t place my finger on it. Then I came across a Matt Coleville video where he was talking about 3e and now people loved how logical it looked at first, but after years of playing people started to realize how cumbersome the system was and lots of people were just straight up not doing certain things in game because it was too much to keep track of while play.
And that was a lightbulb moment for me.
Also what you explained is very common in the hobby. It’s because people make characters disconnected from the setting and group. I long ago tackled this issue by doing a session 0 where we all make characters at the same time. I tell my players they need to build their characters connected to each other and to the setting. Then I hand a primer out and I go over the primer with the, because I know not everyone I’ll read it. It’s a one page tells you everything you need to know primer. Then I sit there and brainstorm with them why their characters care about each other, and the world they’re in, and what their over all goals are.
I started doing this after a session I had where I legit had a player mid session saying “I don’t even know what my character is doing here or why he cares.” I asked why he didn’t make a character connected to the setting or party. He said because I didn’t give guidance in it. I’ve never had this issue since 😅
That’s really helpful - I love how directness and honestly solve this whole problem!
That's the beautiful thing about TTRPGs. You can always hit redo and you can always call a mulligan.
I've used these for years. Establishing and communicating expectations is a great first step.
That primer is a new one to me. It's appears to be a typed version of the setting pitch. "Hey, I have an Idea for a fantasy setting, here's what I think..."
Just wanted to say that I like this room as a setting for your videos.
I actually just made a primer for my players last week, right before our 5th session. They had trouble adapting to the OSR playstyle for Shadowdark, so I wrote down some OSR basics and also put into writing setting elements they may have forgotten. They are all part of a mercenary company tasked with protecting and exploring the frontier. So I made it a bit more explicit that while I have some jobs they can choose to take within the company, they can go explore and map out the new land. I didn't detail any races because as they discover new civilizations they will get to come up with how the races see each other. The first session we played after I gave it to them went very well and they said they enjoyed everything I gave them.
@@pogodonuts that’s great. Could I take a look at your primer?
@@FamilyTableTop Sure, its a bit different than the primer you describe in this video because I didn't really know what a primer was. Just something I slapped together to help my group out a bit. docs.google.com/document/d/1oMn1IlYg4NfU1dK0zvnhbxKHnKrtqmUydihQ4FipfaI/edit?usp=sharing
@@FamilyTableTop Sure. I didn't know what a campaign primer was when I made it, but it fits pretty well even if it is missing a few things the one you're showing has. docs.google.com/document/d/1oMn1IlYg4NfU1dK0zvnhbxKHnKrtqmUydihQ4FipfaI/edit?usp=sharing
When Pathfinder did their adventure paths they released a primer on that arc and it gave the players information on where they're starting with a number of options to explain why they're there.
When I ran my last game I was about to set up an interlude as I didn't run a session zero since it was set in response to another player's game which he messed up.
They start after an incident resulted in a wave of monsters being released a large sized manticore and loads of pygmy manticores think house cats with a tail spike able to cause sleep in whoever hit.
One pair were half elves consisting of a performer (Sorceror) his manager (Rogue) and their backing band (Rogue's guild of 4 Bards).
The cleric was an acolyte brought into the situation in response to a scene that provoked the subsequent civil uprising with him led to the others after an attack on the cathedral that revealed the clergy has been usurped by an evil sect with that cleric being one of the few survivors.
The Paladin was mourning the loss of his mentor and ends up having to take charge at the shrine they meet up with each other as the entire city goes to war as the bad guys try to secure the city.
There's an attempt to send the city into the Shadowfell which is narrowly thwarted at the apparent cost of the Paladin's mentor's mother being banished in her efforts to counter the ritual being cast.
Teaming up they work together to reach the King's mansion and accidentally thwart an attempt to free Vecna from the Shadowfell.
Following this they're sent on a misison to locate the missing heirs and just ignore everything I've been saying and go looking for the prince and not the princess.
Had planned to shift the setting into a domain of dread as I couldn't get them to let go of the rails!
Sorry I understand what they're saying and was in the same situation but the other player didn't give a damn about either campaign so it didn't go anywhere.
Best wishes with your campaign!
I'm going to slip this in here: ua-cam.com/video/MtH1SP1grxo/v-deo.htmlsi=-xDee_QeY1rHBkys
Matt Colville (several years back) set up a series about how to run ttrpgs and get going right away. There's a few things he presumes about it in the beginning of the series, but eventually covers most things. One of them is the campaign pitch document (this is technically the thing the primer comes from). The pitch says, "I want to run these types of games: (a, b, c), which are you interested in?" As part of that pitch, you include the basics of the world that provides everyone with the context for the game. In other words, the setting basics. "Dark fantasy = everything is bleak. Your adventuring party is comprised of vagrants. Etc."
The campaign primer takes it a step further and places more of the world-building in the GM's hands by defining things for the players. This may be useful for some groups who are newer to roleplaying or not as open to appearing foolish in their creativity, whatever the case may be. In more collaborative groups where everyone knows where the boundaries are, you can skip this because the basics of tone & purpose provides enough guidance to the player where they won't derail the game by saying they are a Care Bear character in your grim dark setting. Instead, they may say "my goblin was part of a small tribe or village who was bullied because he had floppy ears and he wanted to be a knight. During a game of jousts, the shield shattered and the lance pierced his lung. His peers left him to die scared when a dryad patched the hole. He became a druid under her tutelage. Now, he joins the party so he can protect the forests and seek revenge against his peers after he gets stronger." Tonally, everything still matches, the details aren't too specific to invalidate any of the world and it gives the GM some hooks to work with for designing some adventures. Such as, maybe one of the peers runs a mine and needs it investigated or cleared of gnolls. Now our goblin knows where one of the targets is for their ambition. All of which is built without a campaign primer document, but the players all knowing where the boundaries are enough with one another not to go overboard in the setup.
A lot of campaign setting books are primers. And also mostly go unread because there's a point where it's too much information for the players and overwhelms them. 2-4 pages is enough. Kobold Press does a really good thing in their book about Midgard where they go "the 7 things everyone knows about the world: 1) dragons are...." That is really all you need. And maybe something a little more defined for the starting locale.
The more I listen the more I believe that this premier thing is a lot like the pages used at conventions to introduce players to the session, players who are strangers to each other and the GM. Most players start the game understanding the setting, etc. Usually via session zero.
Not what your talking about, but years ago I typed up my GM/Campaign notes after the campaign concluded. ua-cam.com/video/VHXKiRmJSww/v-deo.html
Yeah, when I'm GMing at cons I usually do something of the sort in a 2 minutes speech
Salvage the session: The evil threatening the next town succeeds; then ... (people start going missing who leave the PC's town; strange magics seen in the distance; horrible rumors follow people fleeing other town; (OR) the leaders of the town the PC's are in come to the PC's in hopes of finding out what's going on in the next town; or, to recon said town, etc. Sounds like you've got plenty to work with.
8:50 Something that I have embraced over the decades when it comes to maps is to 'not' give or provide the players a map. They may attempt to purchase one, but it'll be very vague (not like Rand McNally is a thing in fantasy settings, eh?) maps if I do. I do keep one for myself, and a log; a GM log is very important (but I'm old). That said. Maps on walls are different. I have often pinned up maps that came with a game, but I leave them pinned up. I don't write on them either.
A vague map (or no PC map) makes it easier for PC input to fill in and flush out settings, and helps draw the players in deeper the more they are involved in the sandbox shaping.
back in and 1st edition map making was a task players were responsible.
My players have a hard expressing character consistency or traits too. I've found success with taking time before a session starts to have them roll a d100 and ask a randomized question for them to answer. We assume this is information they'd have discussed along their travels. In game, I like to give them moments of expression such as "how do you contribute to setting up camp?" Or "what reoccurring dream do you have this long rest?. This has helped them find their characters and often times gives me ideas for personalized sessions or story beats.
@@vincentmiller9555 those are really good ideas! I like the way you engage your players with open ended questions.
Is there list of questions you use - like a random table?
Good templates, woooooo!
Sit down and do this with your players, you have 2 goblins, ask the goblin players to tell you about goblins.
Your son did some art on the stream, ask him to create a coat of arms for some of the factions.
The more ownership they have the more they will engage with the world.
As a DM you are allowed to let the players help you with the world. You mentioned having to come up for a way to introduce a new character to the party. I would have said "you come around the passage and there is a figure in front of you, it looks familiar, how do you recognise it?" Let the players decide why they should team up.
The players can save you prep time.
@@albertstebbins7590 I love these ideas - I’m definitely going to steal these
One thing I realize I've been taking for granted in most of the games I play is character creation systems tie people into the world, whether it's a part of character creation to make everybody think about how they relate to the other characters or if your character sheet has weird little flavor options you have to pick to make a character in the first place.
On a slightly related note, when you're thinking about the guilds it can be interesting to write down a couple different reasons why that guild might be tied to a pick'n'mix adventuring party. Like the Crimson Banner:
"Occasionally officers of the banner will commission a free company. Rumor has it this is how Lord Gostok sorts out who's fit to lead."
"Those who perform such a commission excellently might find themselves invited to Lord Gostok's service."
"Those who chafe under Lord Gostok's orders sometimes strike out for a free company, hopefully without giving too many people a reason to chase them down."
What game system do you mostly play in?
@@FamilyTableTop I tend to rotate one- and two-shot stuff. Most Fate and PBTA games will do the "how do your PCs relate to each other" during character creation, while John Harper's stuff - Blades in the Dark and Agon/the Paragon engine tends toward the "tie yourself to the world as part of character creation" angle.
If you want to see an example of the Lazy DM campaign prep, Sly Flourish has recently published 2 videos on his UA-cam channel where he goes through the steps for his new dragon empire campaign.
Thats helpful thank you.
Im going to try this again. I couldn't edit the last one so I deleted it.
It's a game. I think you are overthinking it. You're playing with two tweens and an eight year old, right? They aren't thespians, right? I really doubt their goals are roleplaying and creating dramatic events. Just give them some cool encounters and let them roll dice. They want to kill orcs and get magical treasure.
Or perhaps at least I did. I started playing as a tween with a bunch of other tweens. We had just read Tolkien and we played our D&D with the goal of killing orcs and maybe a balrog if we got powerful enough. Our first few adventures followed this serious path. Then we played with varying mindsets, just enjoying a zany funhouse dungeon or two, some grimdark, a Conan lite or two, pirate-y sea adventure, and a slapstick adventure sort of King Arthur-ish initially with us playing the knights of the oblong table such as Sir Cumference, Sir Cumcision etc. We also played Gamma World, a space game, Boothill (but got tired quickly after playing a boothill scenario or two and made it Weird West with magic and of course orcs to kill) then Top Secret. Unless they really WANT some immersive environ, just let them have their fun. Roll new characters maybe. Let them explore. An analogy is playing a video game like Skyrim, getting to the end then replaying as a different type character the next time, speed running, or whatever.
The players changing their role playing or not doing what I wanted or thought they would do in a situation shouldnt really be a concern for the DM unless they are a holy cleric killing people or whatever.
More importantly, I would not bother with 4 pages of world building unless they WANTED it. I usually start with one starting point town, usually, and a few adventure site options. I don't even think about the rest of the world they may choose not to see. In many way "world building" is a bit like people who do "character building" but never play with the characters. A game or form of entertainment within itself.
If I am going to do world building, it will be presented piecemeal. They don't learn about the fighters guild until they encounter someone who is in it, or receive some fetch quest that is related to it, etc. A lot of the plot threads are still fuzzy to me at the start of the adventure. I plan the next adventure ahead, and a lot of the plot threads are still fuzzy to me at that point. I will develop them as the game moves.
I agree in principle with you, and I agree that the bulk of this primer (labeled as "Supplementary Information") is from my own worldbuilding initiative. I do think that having even a few labels of things that exist gives people something to build on though. I'm going to the dungeon because (thing). There's still TONS of flexibility in my campaign, especially farther from the starting town, but the players at least have something that differentiates the world from generic Fantasy Land.
@@chevronred You no doubt know your table. With some, it's what they want. But it is hard for us to remember being a new player when even figuring what is the d4 and what is the d20 is still a big deal. I play with a lot of newer players like that and they are often overloaded quickly, which is also why I prefer Shadowdark over big 5e.
I probably had 20 years ago issues and did not knew how to handle them, but honestly I cannot remember any specifics. I read lots of theory stuff, the GM sections in all the books I could get hold of. UA-cam was not a thing yet, so I went regularly on conventions, and played games in brick and mortar stores to see how other people play the games. After all practice is great to master any activity.
I do primers at least since the late 00s, not sure when I really started with that, before that I used Preludes. Preludes are from the old World of Darkness games, and I assume they might still in the newer editions. It is the idea that instead of telling the players what the world is about, you simply play with each one part of their backstory as one-on-one game. That usually worked well to establish personal motivations and ties for the characters. Also, instead of primers it is also possible to have shared worldbuilding, before the campaign. Many PbtA systems approach it that way. Thus when the players themselves establish the organisations and the conflicts they wat to see in the setting, the they can usually play more proactive, since the setting is then just as much theirs as it is yours. And nothing gets players as invested in the setting as having the feeling it is truly theirs.
Sure, I could help on a Discord server, but I cannot promise to be super reliable, since I struggle with chronic depression, which leads on occasion to times in which I stay better off the internet for a few weeks.
Im so sorry to hear about your chronic depression. How are you?
The issue that you just had is *exactly* the reason why good setting books don't just tell you the lore of the setting, but give you clear, evident and actionable hooks and themes that you can pitch into the campaign primer.
In my years GMing and playing the game, the biggest issue I have found was fighting the feeling of playing in a shapeless, grey void that I-the-player have nothing to latch on to get involved.
As a bonus point, it *might* (keyword: might. I'm not at your table, I don't know your players xD) be that, rather than being bored by the setting or the rules, your players simply were not given a solid and clear enough reason to *care* about what happens on stage, hence the feeling of playing in an amorphous, grey void ^^
A campaign primer would work wonders in not just keeping them focused on the game, but also *clued in* on it.
To be fair. Identifying an issue and dealing with it in the first 9 sessions is great. The game I left earlier this year was a year old. DM had a primer. and then promptly sent us a couple thousands years into the future where none of it mattered anymore :P Im currently working on my own primer for a few games I want to run. They're usually 2-3 pages long but I also have a master document if they want more information.
What happened with your group going 1000s of years forward? Did you guys stick out?
@@FamilyTableTop our characters woke up inside our own coffins, in a hidden crypt. and we stuck out like a sore thumb. While an intressting start, the issues arrived quickly and they ever got resolved sadly.
If you have characters that are putting in time to create backstory and do some world building. Reward them by making their work canon and modify or toss out your campaign ideas that don’t mesh with theirs. Player’s willing to put in the extra effort are worth their weight in gold. Of course this rule of thumb works best for setting details they don’t know about yet.
That’s a great idea - thank you.
I've used primers a lot. It was especially useful in worlds where rules are different. A quick example is my most recent campaign where arcane spellcasters (wizard, sorcerer, witch, Magic User) are hunted down and killed. Magic users didn't use spellbooks. Spells are in the form of tattoos and can be gotten in the Thieves' Guild. That was a change from ordinary rules and so was needed in a background primer/introduction. My biggest problem is one you covered before: Not rolling in the open and fudging in favor of my players.
Writing a campaign primer is one of the chapters in Arbiter of Worlds. The chapter goes into detail on a method of writing a campaign primer. I know that I have a personality that "digs in" when someone keeps suggesting the same book/show, but in this case, I really think that book will put your on the path of becoming a great GM. Lots of highlightable material in it's pages.
@@KraftyMattKraft I don’t mind you pressing in about Arbiter of Worlds. The reminders are helpful
Yea everyone's needs it. It's short and gets over ummm. DM stage fright?
@@satori2890 Yes! It really does put the DM in the right headspace.
@@FamilyTableTop It's good, and thin
I haven't read it, but if Krafty recommends it - I probably should!
Great advice.
After hearing this video fully, we really should just have a conversation on Discord for a bit because i recognize some problems I went through when I first learnt to GM and I see you are falling for the same traps that may eventually lead to you &/or maybe family members walking away from TTRPGs like I did for years.
Always do a session zero with your players and have them tell you who their characters are what their backstory will be and bring your campaign into that. See if their backstory connects to each other. And go play Castles and Crusades. Go to Troll lord games your players can do a lot in it
Could you tell me a bit about Castles and Crusades? What do you like about it?
@@FamilyTableTop 5th ed D&D is what Castles and Crusades wants to be rules wise but Castles come out first with their siege Engine System. (No Skills no Feets) Checks made against Primary Attributes have a CB of 12, while checks against Secondary Attributes have a CB of 18. This makes it significantly easier to succeed at a check if you have a Prime in the ability in question. Easy to run and players know what their characters special abilities can do but still come up with anything they can think of to do based on their Primary and Secondary Attributes. They had a kickstarter for the 3 main books this year and should be coming later this year. But what's kool about the system is it still plays the same just slightly different from when they first came out in 2004. They have a Free Players Handbook in their website at Troll Lord Games. You can watch their videos on UA-cam talking more about the game and system.
01:20 A chaotic character doesn't just go around doing random things. A chaotic character values freedom of the individual over the law of the land or "social convention". They will follow the law of the land, or social conventions if it suits them. They can, and will, plan and execute their plans methodically, but those plans my incorporate unconventional elements or may be doing things that are generally unacceptable to society. They will probably be better at improvising when things don't go to plan, but a lawful character may have thought through all of the contigencies and just "Go to Plan B" when Plan A falls apart.
That’s a good explanation of chaotic characters
Maybe your players are just new to role playing games and/or not used to role playing.
Some players will never role play regardless of hand holding, positive reinforcement and endless role playing opportunities.
You don't need a lore dump to begin your campaign, it is better to introduce the most salient points as they become relevant to the players. However, explaining that you will be playing with hex-crawling up front is essential.
That being said having both quest hooks and time limits are essential to good DM'ing.
I am playing in a game where the DM asked for 2 things about the world from each of the players. One about the players and one about the world. My wife's was there are two rivers that surround the city and every fall there is a festival. Mine was my father is a crime lord that runs his organization out of a tea house. The other one was the festival is for the harvest and afterward the beasts of the realm become more aggressive.
So instead of do it all yourself, you can have your players create things in the world with one tying their character to the world.
Wow! Great Job! That’s a really good idea.
There's no shame is switching campaign settings or rules systems when you feel that the one you've been playing has run its course for you. A campaign primer is definitely useful, but if you're looking for options, so is cooperative world building. You could look for co-op world building games like Microscope, Kingdom, The Quiet Year, or Dawn of Worlds. After one session of playing those games, all your players will be invested in the campaign world, because they helped create it. Wildsea looks pretty cool, but if you need a game system that's low-prep, but allows for customizable character options, you should take a look at Tiny Dungeon (or it's various Tiny D6 spin-offs).
@@G-Funk42 thank you for all of the suggestions- I haven’t heard of most of those games. I will add them to the list.
Do you have a favorite system for cooperative world building?
ideally, the players need to know what their characters would know. Sometimes this means a brief history of the universe, sometimes it just means the things they have learned in the tiny mountain village where they have all grown up. You definitely need to include all the character types you will accept and all the ones you won't. And yeah, any facts that might make PC A not get along with PC B.
The best example of a general cultural background is the texts that Chaosium created for RUNEQUEST 3rd Edition called "What my Father Told Me". I can no longer find a text to download online but they contained enough inforamtion about each culture featured in the game to let you play a newly adult person: who your culture revered and who they hated, what was honourable and what was dishonourable, what you believe happens after death and much more.
@@johnmichaelcule8423 that’s a really good idea - “what my father told me” is also a helpful framing for the characters having faulty information about the world
@@FamilyTableTop It's always from someone's point of view. Even when it's a 'historical' document.
Sounds like the players are still exploring; learning what they can do, or, they are realizing that their character's can actually take on lives of their own, which is surprising if your just discovering that
I think I understand what you mean -
It's taken us a long time to learn how to really play TTRPGs. Is that correct?
If that is what you're saying, I would agree. I think the problem is that I came into DMing in the same sort of way that I try to learn board games. I learned the basic rules and then I started playing with people. Since the game was "working" I didn't really try that hard to keep learning. And also, we were still rotating several different games on Saturday nights - Only recently (last couple months) I decided that I really want to focus on TTRPGs. This channel was initially going to focus heavily on Wargames - But then I started to notice the benefits of the RPGs over the Wargames.
Does all that make sencse?
Yea I said in the stream he can fix it by going to a bigger city or military camp and learning Larger World Issues
@@FamilyTableTopYes and you have most of The Greats helping and talking in comments because it makes us think about our games.
@@FamilyTableTop Yes. Wargames tend to be simpler for many; they are mostly 2 dimensional, while RPGs can spread across many facets of life in general.
What I mean about players learning about their characters. Consider this. If you play the same character long enough, you start to notice that the character has a personality. Often quite different from the players. The player starts to learn that the character, through actions or words, may 'do things different' then they, the player would. It's really a cerebral thing.
Like you said, a player discovers they like making maps; where another player realizes that their character is better a picking locks then the groups rouge. Or, a character's background opens windows and doors for connecting factions, settings, NPCs, etc, in the game, making the experience richer; more intimate to the player.
It also makes it 'more real' when a character dies in game. Some players get cheesed, others indifferent, or so they'll say.
What a fantastic tool this is! I'm in a very small group playing in a supers game and I think we could benefit tremendously from something like this. Thanks to @chevronred for creating (and sharing) it and @Table Top Family for bringing it to our attention. Awesome!
That's very kind of you! I made it out of genuine worldbuilding love. I think the real "service" to the players comes from condensing the information as much as possible, which can be hard if you really like going on and on and on....
Instead of "restarting" whole cloth... have you considered "leveling them up" and having them go to a new location a bit further away? (like 2 squares away, it doesn't have to be much) Then Nate narrates, "A few years have passed since you saved the children in the Shadowdark. You have gone off to have adventures of your own and you discover you have run into familiar faces again in a new location a bit further from home. Before we arrive at this new area with a new access point to the Shadowdark, let me give you some backstory on this area and I want you to tell me more about yourselves and perhaps the background of allies you may have made or factions you might have joined."
You could even advance the story saying, "You have rescued other children and discovered there are other towns also experiencing this problem. It's much bigger than you originally thought."
Because remember that at the beginning this Primer might have been too much for you too handle and your players would have been overwhelmed with it. I don't think you messed up. I think you're following a natural path many DM's and players go through.
Besides... if you phrase it as "Leveling up" you have a great excuse to throw new, more powerful monsters at the players. muhahahaha!
I’ve been thinking about this a lot too - trying it figure out how to keep things going in this world and setting.
The thing that keeps occurring to me is that my players keep trying play a deeper system than Shadowdark. I would have to add quite a bit into the game in order to get my son and Landon interested again. The story is totally disconnected from the characters but that isn’t my only issue.
Do that make sense?
@FamilyTableTop That is absolutely fair. If you don't want to lose the world and setting but feel a more in-depth system is needed then you can switch perspectives and tell an ongoing story from maybe the King's view as he sends out new Knights (the new player characters) or the blacksmith's guild or what have you, depending on the type of characters they want to use and the new system chosen. Or simply "there are other problems being faced by different people in this land." A person with different priorities might describe the same world in a different way, revealing other sides to this world that you hint at when you're building your new Primer. (e.g. a Tourist map shows Tourist Trap locations, while a topographical map might show a small trail you have to bushwhack through to get to a remote pristine lake, while an adventurer's map might show dangerous monsters in various areas)
If you think you have reached the end for sure, then maybe write a little synopsis ending or frame your first map or something to close the book on this area for you. Don't underestimate the quick paragraph closing. I've found great closure in games with a tidy email saying "and this is the final details of what happened" (this was after I had a session where I asked the players how their stories finished) because it also allowed me to vent some secrets I hadn't used or didn't explain well (and make sidenotes for myself of secrets to save for a future game). I've finished a map that was only partially drawn as closure also.
Finally, consider running a one-shot (or three-shot) as a palate cleanser. It's the spooky season and spooky games are often best as a one-shot so that you can have the lone survivor at the end. The Scream Movie is a fantastic template for a horror one-shot, especially if you have multiple monsters or baddies in case the first one gets taken out by the players. Switching it up like this also can refresh interest.
"Players Too Zany 2: Electric Boogaloo" 😁
Do Character Creation with open-mystery questions that are NOT resolved. (I listed a few on the other video)
No backstory is as exciting as something uncertain that still haunts them.
If you wrote Zuko as "He is on a quest to capture the Avatar, and restore his honour", well, there's not a lot to build on there, no matter how cool the world is. A robot could hunt the Avatar. But his scar coming from his own father, his Uncle feeling shame for not defending him, and "destiny chosen for him" all made for an incredible, unsettled, character arc. Zuko grew from that uncertainty. He would have been boring as just a relentless Terminator character.
Your flip-flopping player doesn't sound compelled by anything unsettled. The setting can set up dramatic conflict, but the setting is not the character. 💪
@@tslfrontman I took a picture of your comment because your questions were so good I wanted to go through them with my players.
@@tslfrontman really well explained! Thank you
Drip feed the information, from the NPC's. You can judge what they like by how they react to the info as it appears.
WILDSEA!
04:11 In my SD game it's so horror my players are afraid to split up even for buying nails!!!
In the game I play my Half Elf Paladin the DM permitted chaotic wandering, we see how that ends.
It's not really Narrative or Teamwork I know I ran loads of CoC . It's Mission, when they know the stakes they don't do dumb stuff like steal horses or rob liquor stores, they fear Saruon.
I solved this by sending my players a real letter from some main person from the fictional world in which he or she is reaching out to the players...
Could you explain a little more?
That sounds really cool! Reminds me of Daggerfall!
Thanks for the video. Just FYI the document link is not working.
@@josechitty3805 thank you for letting me know
I think that is an impressive document, but I don't think it is going to work for every group. At first glance, it seems like it would fit real well for a group of people who have never met, but maybe not as well for a group of friends and family. Alternatively the document might serve as an agenda for a session 0. I know you've got another candidate for a system, but I'm going to mention Worlds Without Number again. Simple builds, but there are skill and ability benefits for leveling. But I'd also suggest running a series of one shots with your group and see which systems you connect with more. Games like Traveller make character creation a group activity and while it can ban adjustment, the players end up connected to each other and understand their motivations.
Also... super looking forward to a discord server. There have been many times where I thought, "it would be easier if I could talk to this guy over discord". Not in a persuasive sense, but more efficiency in communicating.
Interestingly, I designed this for people I've been GMing for for years now! They're very close friends. The "introductory" kind of thoughts presented are threefold: I'm setting expectations for a new style of play to them(OSR), I am differentiating my campaign from other campaigns GMed in my group, and I am differentiating this campaign from the last (5e) one. So while the players know me and I know them, there are elements of the game that still need introducing.
@@chevronred I definitely see how it can be helpful, especially if you are introducing a new campaign that is a different tone than previous ones.
I think the discord link is working now - should be in the channel about section
Character goals are good, but maybe make all the players have the same long term goal for their characters.
They could all have different short and mid term goals.
Sounds like the world building has factions, which is nice. Also great no map, let the players make their own.
Only really dislike the pre-built race lore, like players to make that up for themselves.
OOOOO DISCORD! DISCORD! DISCORD! (Have I annoyed you about it yet? xD)
This is one of the problems with playing D&D and other fantasy games without a strong setting associated with it. Just look up different RPGs based on a world setting that sounds really cool and play one of those. Many times the game mechanics in those are well suited for the themes in that world, so they may sound odd when compared to a generic fantasy setting like D&D or Shadowdark that are super popular. There is a big difference between having a little info on a few regions or just having a 3 session adventure compared to a full world that piques the imagination of the players and GM. It gives the player something to read to understand the world and where their character fits into it. The big problem is finding a game with a setting that everyone in your group likes. I loved Earthdawn and so did a couple other players in my group, bit another two didn't like it at all and obviously the campaign was not successful. Good luck!
It sounds like your players are a little bored and listless, like they don't know what they should do. The World Primer may help if your players latch onto aspects of the world and run with that. But it may not work.
Ultimately players and characters need motivation and goals, especially for longer campaigns. Some players create their own motivation and goals without any prompting. And then it is up to you as a GM to make those motivations and goals matter. For other players you will have to nudge them towards some kind of goal. The Primer could do that as they see how their characters can fit into the bigger landscape of the world and how they can affect it. But it could be as simple as having an NPC that they care about needing help. Or the character wants to develop something, like a guild or become important.
Alternatively, Shadowdark has the Titles feature that increase as you get to higher levels. Show how that impacts the world. Have people or factions seeking them out, giving them recognition, and looking to them for direction or to solve problems.
I really like the way you explain the Pros/Cons - thank you that is helpful to understand the way this could turn out either way.
What you're going through as well is the bigger explation as to why some rule books have "lore" and "the why these machanics are in" that you felt like didn't help you at all. Shadowdark is a true "setting angostic" game it seems so that's why it could cut down "all that fat" that you were so fustrated with Dragonbane and other systems. That "Fat" is actually explaining how you could build a world around the machanics in a way that feel more "oomph" to the players and why they are playing the system in the first place. I do get though why you just wanted to focus on the "basic rules" at the beginning because you didn't realize that there's a lot more to storytelling than just a simple board game. That Primer (which is actually new to me personally so thank you for making a video explaining it more) is makes storytelling elements very digestiable for players and honestly is a great tool. I'm used to what is in the primer is actually talked about in the session 0 straight away.
I will argue though you could have still have your players start from the less danger place, but what would have been benifical is have them go to the bigger town and learned of the bigger threat and explained that was why your children were going missing. The storytelling elements is also why I was explaining some of the inspos I had were actual novels because it taught me the fundementals what makes a good story for people. I do agree though maybe you could have actually given more connection between what each race is dealing with and what makes them uinque for the players to work with much like what that primer did.
I hope this means you can have a lot of fun with building out something that is fun for you and your players in a way that is digestiable and fun in the future. I sure did with the Cursed World setting and I'm having loads of fun with my Hinsay Setting, even if one of my Hinsay oneshot players think I'm "doing too much" xD. But it helps me know that I can just throw in a nugget of intrest for the players if I'm personally seeing the dead ends are getting monotious. or the empty rooms in that matter.
Thank you for explaining all of that.
I think you’re totally correct - the very thing I was complaining about in Dragonbane and DnD was the lore being mixed into mechanics. But when that thing is missing there’s something the DM needs to create.
Also - tell me if I am wrong - but you are investing a ton of time and effort to make a setting far worse than Forgotten Realms is now. Why?
@@JScottGaribay hello Scott, how’s it going?
I understand what you mean… why would I leave DnD just to play Shadowdark - just to get frustrated with Shadowdark…
You’re right: I am trying to solve a problem that I made for myself.
Regardless of my feelings about Shadowdark, I am very happy that we switched from DnD to Shadowdark. My players have all told me that they really liked playing Shadowdark more than DnD. DnD characters were too complex for my players.
Now that I know my players generally prefer simple systems over complex ones - I’m going to find a system (probably Wildsea) and create a campaign primer for the game.
I will probably allow my players to help me build the story and world this Saturday.
It sounds like you think this idea is a mistake… is that right? What about this idea seems bad to you?
@@FamilyTableTop I’m doing well. Thank you for asking. I really love your channel because it is exciting to see someone excited about Fantasy TTRPGs. But at the same time I am so fascinated to see you making so many mistakes. You are writing a primary (going to take a lot of effort) and your fantasy world will end up being a pale shadow of what you would have gotten if you stayed on DND. Forgotten Realms is Phandolin and Waterdeep and Neverwinter. Cities that you can read stellar one paragraph summaries of or entire books that detail them really well. It just breaks my heart to see you invest time and effort to make something that will be far worse than the detailed, built, epic Forgotten Realms. And I think the people who suffer are your players. Your struggling to master rules and table play and then on top of that your spending valuable time cycles to build a subpar fantasy setting. It just does not make sense to me. All that said - watching you attempt all this is very compelling content. Also I know your heart is in a good place. I am just a little heartbroken to see you spending energy on things that do not deserve that energy the way DND does. As always, thank you for this video. I did enjoy it.
@@FamilyTableTop Also I gotta say - I don't understand how you expect your players to take Shadowdark seriously. You guys don't even have printed books. It just communicates amateur hour to everyone at the table. You say you don't like DND but if you were playing DND now your players could have real books - and not just regular books but books that have world class art, writing and layout (freshly updated with new everything). I think you have problems because Shadowdark cannot handle the weight of a real campaign (which is what you are trying to run).
@@JScottGaribay thank you Scott. You might be right - this might be another huge failure. I think that might be part of the process for me - for me, failure is the best teacher.
I’ll let you know how things go, and I might even have to say “Scott told me so…” - I hope not, but we’ll see.
@JScottGaribay I'd be very interested to watch a video from you about the merits of using Forgotten Realms over a homebrew/DM-created campaign setting!
OK - first up front - you are a smart guy - I get that - but I cannot believe you think this going to work to engage your players. You think that you filling out a tax document about your campaign world and then assigning the reading of that tax document to every player is going to engage your players? It very much will not. I am stunned that your believe this will work.
@@JScottGaribay could you explain what you mean about “tax documents”?
@@FamilyTableTop sure that big long document that looks super boring and is filled with a bunch of minutia that should be communicated to your players. Not through black text but through the narrative in a way that's winsome and enjoyable. Your campaign primer is a tax form! Reading that thing is going to feel like homework because it is homework. No fun blah terrible.
@@JScottGaribay lol - you’re so genuinely funny Scott. I really like reading your messages.
You’re right - my players might find the document dull. I’ll try to keep my info short and then I’ll read it to them.