Jokic’s Place in the Pantheon If He Goes Back-to-Back | The Bill Simmons Podcast
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- Опубліковано 21 кві 2024
- The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss where Nikola Jokic will rank if he wins the Finals back-to-back.
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The notion that Jokic was the worst MVP is remarkably stupid. The man has shown year after year that he is the best basketball player in the world.
While there are handful of guys you could say were the worst MVPs ever (Karl Malone in 1997, Steve Nash in 2006), I think unquestionably it's Derrick Rose in 2011. Now... that's NOT to say Rose wasn't awesome because he absolutely was and a special player to watch back then, but the seasons Dwight Howard (2nd) and LeBron James (3rd) had were significantly better. Howard was 23 and 14 at 60% shooting while also winning DPOY on a Top-4 seed. LeBron was better statistically across the board than Rose and made first-team All-Defense on a #2 seed. Rose didn't make either All-Defensive team, shot 44% from the field, and was also a bad 3P shooter... and all the advanced analytics (that weren't really used back then) go against him. 25 and 8 on poor percentages is okay, but that's really just a worse version of a typical Trae Young season. I understand that stats don't always define MVPs and the Bulls did finish as the #1 seed, but in retrospect, Rose was a feel-good-story MVP. I'm happy he won it, but he probably shouldn't have.
@@chili015
I can think of a couple more of the “worst MVPs”
@@chili015 Rose leads the league advanced stat in OBPM, which is the only one.
All the others were Lebron's in 2011.
But, he could not get 3rd MVP in a row, just like Jokic didn't last year.
Also, Jokic led the league's advanced stats for 4th year straight, which Lebron didn't do in his peak from 2009-2013.
He's not even in the conversation. Gilbert Arenas saying something doesn't make it true. More often than not if he says something the opposite is likely to be true. Joker is closer to the best MVPs than he is the worst.
Jokic is an historic playoff performer but I never hear his actual playoff numbers talked about. He's #1 in many playoff advanced numbers all time, #7 in playoff ppg all time, 7th all time in playoff true shooting percentage, 7th all time in playoff effective field goal percentage, 3rd all time in playoff triple doubles, 15th all time in playoff rebounds per game and 19th all time in playoff assists per game. Those numbers are just staggering! Absolutely agree he's in the running for a top 10 all time list with one more MVP--which he'll get in a matter of days--and another title in his career. He'd also have to play another 5 years or so at an all NBA level.
Yeah he is epic but something to keep in mind is that you are comparing per game stats to guys who played a full career. A lot of guys fall off a bit in later years and that will pull per game stats down a bit. Jokic is still in his prime so we will see where he ends up when all is said and done.
@@spolHis peak is higher than anyone else’s
@@spolyou can just compare peak to peak and you'll still find joker on top.
Jokic could be the best draft pick of all time. There have been some good careers from 2nd round picks like Gil Arenas, Manu, etc. How many 2nd round picks have ever been multiple MVPs, won the finals, and been as dominant as Jokic? Idk if there is a formula for value added by draft pick, but Jokic has to be up there.
I never liked “an” being used before “historic.” We pronounce the “H.” We don’t say, “an hippo.”
People who actually know the game of basketball know just how damn good Hakeem was. There is no scenario where Durant should be put in front of Hakeem.
It's a shame Hakeem never got the chance to face Jordan in the Finals and it's a shame we as fans got to miss that...
saying that as a Knick fan
Just recency bias against hakeem who was the 2nd best player in the 90s next to jordan. If magic and birds 80s teams werent so dominant, hakeem wouldve probably had another ring in that era considering that for a few yrs him and sampson went toe to toe and beat magic's lakers a couple of times.
I agree. There is no scenario I would ever put Shaq above Hakeem as all-time best center. Shaq was dominant don't get me wrong. But Hakeem had better feet, was a better free throw shooter and better shot blocker.
You just repeat what you heard these same TV guys say during your era lmao
Yeah Dream wouldve ate up Chicagos frontline. Even Rodman would have no answer. Then sick Vernon Maxwell on Jordan @coreyhansen9711
Honest to God, i never expected him to be this great back in 2014 when he was the best player in Serbia playing for a development team in Mega Leks. He's improved every year since he's come to the NBA and it's been a joy to watch him grow. I'm so proud a Serb is the best basketball player in the world and i'm glad it's him ❤🇷🇸
Serbia always had the best athletes in Europe (behind Germany only porbably, France and Spain more recently). And that's coming from a Bosnian/Montenegrian.
We Nuggets fans here in Denver feel the same way. When I first saw tape of him at Mega I thought 'he's going to be an NBA player.' When I saw his rookie summer league I thought 'he's going to play for 10 years in the NBA.' After his rookie season I thought 'he's going to be a long term NBA starter.' Once he began starting I thought 'he's going to be an all star.' By 2019 I thought 'he's going to be all NBA. ' After the 2020 playoffs I thought 'he's going to win an MVP.' But at no point during those years did I think he'd be in the top ten all time convo. But here we are! Amazing. One of the great career stories ever.
@@JoePesciVSBillyBattsУздравље земљаче!
@@dimitrijetucovic1307 pozdrav buraz!
Wow I see you a lot and didn't know you've been into jokic since 2014. Respect man. He's an amazing player and person
Every Year Joker is getting better
interesting Kobe went back to back but Duncan never achieved this.
@@MrCleanMachine48 Yeah, but Duncan won a title in three different NBA decades 😉
He will be one of if not the greatest playoff risers in NBA history when it’s all said and done
For real, as good as his last 3 regular season have been, he always takes it to a higher level in the playoffs, against better defense and competition. Compared to his "rival" Embiid, who puts up stats in the regular season, then falls off hard, whether injured or not, in the playoffs.
Dude has never lost as the higher seed, and has only overperformed his regular season production. Also just from watching, his defense gets significantly better in the playoffs as well. I don't get how, if he repeats, how he wouldn't be higher than Steph for Bill. He'd be a much better playoff performer, much more impactful, with ZERO other all-stars. All due respect lebron could never do that, even in a MUCH weaker conference he spent his career in. In fact, since he's been in his prime and his team wasn't decimated by injuries, he hasn't even really played a close series he was supposed to win. He's also come back from 3-1 MULTIPLE times.
@@daddyfuse50
Saying Jamal Murray isn’t an All-Star⭐️ caliber player at this point is actual lunacy. Last year he was on that level as well.
@tyjohnson3111 he is in the playoffs for sure, but all-star is given for reg season performance and he's not even a snub then
He lost to the Blazers in 2019 as the higher seed@@daddyfuse50
I really want Jokic and the Nuggets to three peat. There will be no denying him then, by anyone.
Anyone that doesn't think Joker is elite only watches highlights and not full games. Highest IQ, best passer, efficient scorer, and makes his teammates better. He literally controls the entire game. His peak will be top 3 all time.
(I love MJ and Lebron - appreciate greatness)
Or he would retire of boredom like MJ?
If he gets 4 mvps and a 3 peat w/o an all star teammate he is better than lebomb all time no doubt
@@dariusdragomir9414 LeBron is Jokic, MJ, Magic, Bird, Karl Malone and Kareem combined
Jokic's highlights are pretty darn impressive too.
@@Edd-zd5wb unfortunately the “white part “ of lebrick will cook him again tonight :’( la is going down 0-2 and ofc, bron doesnt have enough help 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
As a Dubs fan, Jason Timpf on Colin Cowherd’s podcast said it best last night: The Joker is inevitable! More so than Thanos ever was! He has no weaknesses at any level on the floor on both sides and he’s bigger than everyone else so there’s literally nothing you can do. Unless Embiid gets healthy and moves to the Western Conference, I don’t see a legit matchup that can contend with Denver for the next couple of years after this! ❤
His awful defense is kind of a weakness. On offense hes the best ever probably
Jason timpf another lediklik on the payroll
@@dantenewyork7380 what a dumxaxx
@@Edd-zd5wbhe’s gotten better as a defender. He’ll never be elite but, you can’t just eye him in the P/R and think it’s going to be automatic for your team anymore.
@@Edd-zd5wb Awful? He's average at worst.
Nikola Jokić, soon in the G.O.A.T. conversation! 😎
I know its too soon but he's my GOAT
Joker to me is like the modern tim duncan of the 2000s where he didnt have another superstar but just made everyone in his team better so every year was a serious championship contender. (tony parker wasnt as good during this time and david robinson was way past his prime)
Duncan played with Ginobili and Parker his entire career, Kawhi for a large part of it too, had excellent role players, and one of the best coaches ever. Duncan is WILDLY overrated. Jokic also has literally the perfect team surrounding him and has become WILDLY overrated. So yes, in that sense they are similar
@@mathewdavis2427 The only wild thing here is how sure you are when you post nonsense.
@@THE_BEAR_JEW Good argument
@@mathewdavis2427
Don’t agree with the overrated part at all.
@@mathewdavis2427
“Literally has the perfect team around him”…is that his fault or his front office whose job is to do that for their star player???
People tend to confuse style and skill. Jokic is highly skilled but many find his style less popular. Hes not fast, not quick, no hops, no flashy moves or tricks, etc. Yet he is insanely efficient, fundamentally sound, minimal mistakes and makes other players better. All these qualities will make him top ten of all-time if hes not already. I think hes only going to get better and with his style of play, he will have minimal injuries and a very long career if he chooses. Perhaps his best qualities are availability and consistency-consistently scores, rebounds, assists, no turnovers, and continues to win at the highest levels. He is basically a living legend before our eyes. Yall better recognize and appreciate it while hes still here.
I forget who said it on a podcast I was listening to, but they said ,"the further you go off the ground, the more injured you will be." I think that's extremely true. The Derrick rose, Anthony Edward's, ja morants, Blake griffins of the world are always, always incredibly fun to watch.. but it's just one bad landing away or just wear and tear over time, that starts putting you out of games more and more. Explosive players have short exciting careers and "boring" players who stay grounded usually end up in the long game
Kenyon Martin.
Then besides the broken foot season, MJ was remarkably durable.
@@jordanjenkins1671 He was just like Lebron. 2 freaks of nature against the entire history of the NBA
Jokic is so insane. It’s like watching a 5th grade team with the only tall kid on the team
Nothing happened to Jerry West. It’s just logic. If it took 70+ years to make your “bet your soul on this top 10” list, in 70+ more years half of them should be knocked off. Just like 35+ years ago the top 10 would have looked different than now.
This is one of the greatest peaks in the history of the NBA. The past 4 years, Jokic has been playing at peak MJ/Bron level. Here's to hoping Denver can be healthy enough to win a couple more rings. One more, and I think he's knocking on Larry's door.
1 good season
He's edged peak LeBron, and didn't need to run to multiple other all-stars to get it done. Absolutely wild that is seemingly forgiven and forgotten.
@daddyfuse50
Yeah ok. Jokic is not winning with moe Williams amd Verajao.
@@daddyfuse50 Bron led a ragged Cavs team to the Finals albeit in a weak East. I don't really have a problem with him wanting to play with better players in Miami. Jokic doesn't have an all-time great team around him but it's a well-constructed roster with an All-Star-caliber guard and the all pieces fit very well. It's not negligible. I agree that Jok may have edged peak Bron but longevity is of course is Bron's favor. Jokic will have to sustain this for a while and win at least a couple more to surpass Bron.
@poorchris
Porter and Murray both over 30 million. Gordon 25 m KCp 14 million. All high price guys
7:45
I don’t agree with Bill a lot; but this is spot on.
Peak should be a 4 year sample of generally the same teammates or lineup construction.
Prime should be more ambiguous.
I agree with everything both guys said. Charles Barkley recently said he doesn't understand why people are so reluctant to praise the guy. I think if he played for the Lakers, Warriors, Knicks or one of the bigger ball clubs he would be praised and talked about way more.
My entire nba fandom was started and maintained through LeBron and let me just say that Jokic is the only player that has made me feel as a fan 100% hopeless that LeBron would move on to the next round.
Obviously this is age 39 LeBron, so it isn’t exactly the perfect showdown of two legends at their peak, but I’m not 100% sure I even would take the Lakers with 2012-2018 LeBron.
Kawhi never got to that level. Curry and KD did get there but only in the context of having the most talented roster ever conceived.
Dirk didn’t get there. (Obviously the result was a disaster, but there was no reason to expect defeat heading into the 2011 finals).
But Denver doesn’t have an unbeatable roster or a large talent advantage. They just have a guy so good that their roster becomes unbeatable.
The best thing for me (Nuggets fan) is reading how Rui Hachimura is some kind of secret Jokic Kryptonite. When Lakers fans start talking about Rui I just know the delusion is coming.
Or when they bring up Dwight Howard as if he was the reason the Lakers won in 2020 😂
I'm hearing Gabe is the new Rui adjustment lol
Straw man. Nobody's saying that. They are saying taking AD OFF Jokic and then having AD cheat on him is a better strategy than having AD guard Jokic directly.
Your mom was deluded for not leaving you at a Planned Parenthood garbage can.
@@David-iv6je Denver dummies who didn’t exist five years ago can’t help themselves. Of course they’re full of shit…it’s all they know.
Of all the fanbases in the world, Lakers fans appreciate Jokic's greatness the most right now...
😂
Bill and Russilo underrated Kobe
No they hate on Kobe. You must be new here cuz they’ve dragged Kobe’s name and game thru the mud in multiple pods
Pure haters. They acted like the Kobe and Steph conversation is real. It’s not close, there’s a full HOF career separating the two. They don’t mention any of Kobe’s all defensive teams…
Bill, you put Kobe over Jerry in 2009. What do you mean what did West do to fall behind Kobe? Lol.
Has Jokic passed Durant? If I had to pick either of them in their prime, it would be hard to pass up Jokic.
100% he has. Durant won a championship only after joining a Curry led almost dynastic like team. Joker has Jamal Murray, but come on, warriors were a championship type team without Durant. With Jokic, nuggets entire system doesn’t work
here for the hakeem love . my favorrite Center ever still
D wade and Tony Parker don't get enough credit for their big playoff games that got their teams series wins
I know one person that doesn't care where Jokić finishes in All-time list. It's Jokić!
True...
'One notch below Tatum.'
Cool, Bill.
Jokic is better than anybody that played in the nba since lebron/kobe/shaq and might be better than all of them when he done ✔️
It's basically impossible for him to be better all-time than lebron, he has no chance of being the GOAT let's not get carried away. He does have a chance at kobe/shaq though
@@tonyc86 Lebron is not in the goat conversation not even close.
@@emilfrederiksen.1622 put down the meth
WHERE IS SHAQ IN THE TOP 10, BILL? He had the best Finals run and performance of anyone not named Michael Jeffrey Jordan. 36/15/4/3 on 60% shooting with 3 FMVPs and a 12-3 record in three consecutive Finals.
Who is he replacing on Bill's list? Shaq is great but he underperformed. Free throws were his Achilles heel. And Hakeem destroyed young Shaq. Duncan did more with less.
@@havok6280
1. Hakeem didn’t destroy young Shaq. The Rockets swept, but Shaq more than held his own.
2. Shaq also destroyed old Hakeem in 1999.
@nocturne311 ask Shaq who the best centers of all time are. His list is Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, and then him. Look it up.
@@havok6280Just because Shaq is humble and lists those players over him, that doesn’t mean they are. That’s his perspective based on his admiration for all time greats - some of whom he never even played against. That’s a terrible argument.
@@nocturne311 it isn't my argument it's his. I think Shaq was better than Hakeem...
The most valuable person ever in the NBA was and is Jerry West. Heck, just his GM role alone makes him the most valuable ever. Architect of Showtime Lakers, Kobe and Shaq, The Super Warriors, the Grindhouse Grizzlies... who is more valuable than that?
🤔 a couple of people come to mind for me.
Russell
Kareem
@@tyjohnson3111 They are not close. Think of a guy that built 3 sets of teams that had historical runs (Magic Lakers, Kobe Shaq Lakers, and then builds the GSW team). That is 10 championships and many finals appearances besides that right there. And it's almost more impressive what he did aside from that. In the last few years of Magic's career and in the years after this guy was picking winners from the 20s and 30s in the draft at a KILLER rate. Just look at his draft record, they almost all became all stars.
@@petermullen3102
My argument for Russell is pretty simple.
Head of a dynasty that will *never* be replicated in any American sport.
First successful superstar turned player coach.
Rivaled Wilt by playing against him as his polar opposite.
Set the foundational structure of the NBA.
Kareem is also pretty simple
Played the last 10 years of the NBA having no 3PT line & the first 10 with it.
Played against Wilt & MJ.
The bridge of what preceded the merger to what we know now as the beginning of the modern era.
It all stems through him.
10 Finals.
14 Conference Finals.
18 Postseason Appearances.
1st in Total Games Played in Regular & Postseasons, as well as 2nd in Minutes Played.
@@tyjohnson3111 Foundational architect of showtime. That's five championships, Architect of Lakeshow (both) that is another five championships, Architect of the Warriors, that is another 4 championships. Built winning teams outside of that with no championships. The warriors had steph when he arrived, he only picked Clay and Draymond in his first draft year. West built championships for multiple teams, in different eras... no matter where he went he won.
@@petermullen3102
He also coached the Lakers pre-Magic and didn’t fare too well; which actually lead him to the front office.
I'm with you Russillo regarding Hakeem. the only center I may take over him is Jokic
Bill got Kove severely underrated
Kobe*
Nope. Kobe’s efficiency is not elite.
Nick Wright was the one who said that Nikola Jokic was one of the worst MVP winners of all time. He actually compared his MVP to Dave Cowens’. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️
Nick's biased towards eye test guys. He was always down on Brady as well
Cowens was great in his era...
Nick Wright is a total boob. He's the one guy more than any other where I just can't understand how he's made it to where he was. Beyond Colin few peers like or respect him and his takes often are just absurd. Feels like a total plant.
He has since changed his views and you still misrepresent him. This is almost as ridiculous as his old take
@@havok6280
100%
But he stole a MVP💎 from Kareem. Can’t respect that.
The thing with jokic is that he shouldn’t be this good. AD showed it last night. AD can score on him whenever he wants but jokic is playing a whole different game. AD is going at him but jokic is going at the entire team. He might be the smartest player ever.
For the next 7 years he will be a contender and a top 3 mvp candidate so if he wins 4mvps and 5fmvps more is he the goat?
I don’t even know what the criteria is anymore in the all time conversation.
There isn't any agreed upon criteria, which is why opinions vary so much. Generally though, high peak achievements are very important (MVPs, titles, FMVPs, all-NBA team picks, all-Defense picks, etc.).
@@phillipschuman4307 If what you’re saying is true then placing Jokic ahead of the players they did just doesn’t make sense, by that criteria.
@@terrysdavisIf Jokic wins this year he would presumably have 3 MVP's and 2 FMVP's
Here is the list of players who have done that:
Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russell*
*Finals MVP didn't exist until 1969
So it's projecting a little bit there's a damn good chance he's going to leap frog anyone who isn't listed above
@@michaelahurtWilt also would be on this list : he won in ‘72, and would’ve won in ‘67 if it existed back then.
@@twilitezn Yes. My bad. I should've looked. For some reason I thought West won it in 72.
Jokic's human design is absolutely STACKED. he has the mechanics of someone with consistent energy / SOLID motor [ like Jordan and Kobe did ] in a strong position, but also has crazy mental energy stacked up to support this [ for anyone into human design ]. not surprising at all with these mechanics. he will have a very long an successful career.
Bill / Ryen i strongly suggest you guys look up your human design [ mental / physical / emotional mechanics born into your aura from birth ].
Jokic was good on defense today. Absolute food
It's pretty hard to even discuss this til he gets much closer to retirement, but as far as what historic Centers have done before the age of 30, he's basically behind Kareem and Shaq, maybe? And as far as his skillset (with the shooting and passing) he may even be past Shaq already. I don't expect to put him over Kareem, but I'm prepared to (eventually) label him a Top 2-3 Center all-time.
Not one Mention of Doctor J is beyond disrespectful
Listen to LeBron with JJ talk about Jokic. He’s a problem wherever he is on the court and I think few big men have that distinction. He’s a threat wherever he is and has an IQ to match his skills.
shoutout russillo for "standing up" for hakeem, i feel like he gets somewhat lost in the cracks
Duncan should be top 5
Jokic for sure has an argument over Moses Malone if he wins the MVP, ring and FMVP this year.
Half of me loves NBA history and loves ranking all time players the other half hates all time debates because ultimately we are comparing players in completely different circumstances and the way the game is played has changed each era, even within eras it’s complicated comparing 2 guys playing different positions or completely different styles because in a team sport the value of the individual can depend on what role they play within a team and how their skillet complements their teammates and vice versa.. so I’ve settled on never ranking all time in order anymore and I go by tiers of each era
For example
Tier 1 Best of Generation/decade
60s Russell/Wilt
70s Kareem , Dr J (ABA included)
80s Magic/Bird
90s Jordan , Hakeem
00s Duncan, Shaq/Kobe
10s LeBron, Steph
20s Jokic , Giannis (Embiid/Luka) tbd
30s Wembanyama… tbd
Jokic is incredible and to me he’s probably at his peak right now and he maybe hasn’t accomplished enough to fit in most peoples tier 1 one all time because this decade isn’t even over yet but just these past 4 seasons of him I think he’s clearly worthy of being in the same breath as everyone else who was the best of past generations.
If I have any opinion that’s controversial it’s that Jordan is the most overrated of all of these players
Not because I don’t think he’s probably the best or his era but because most fans put him on
a pedestal above everyone else and I think in some ways you argue the 90s was the easiest era to win a lot of championships compared to the best players of other eras competition (RELATIVE TO ERA)
And I’m someone if I had to guess generally speaking if players from the past would be better or worse if they played today I’d say worse because I believe in evolution but ultimately we can never know for sure and i like appreciating what players did in their own eras without having to compare.
Definitely needs more than 2-3 rings, but he’s great. Hypothetical until it happens though
If joker goes back to back he would be somewhere between top 10 top 12 for me because of the way he plays the game he's just so much overall a better player than most everybody else and can we be honest he's just disrespected buy black people because he's not poster dunking on people.
Top 5 all time when he retires
Just say no
My top 10: MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Bird, Kobe, Russell
Next 10: Steph, Hakeem, West, Durant, Moses Malone, Oscar, Jokic, Robinson, Karl Malone, Giannis
I don't think Steph or Durant will crack my top ten given they each just have a few years left, but Jokic and Giannis still have several years left of their peaks to build up their resumes.
Magic, MJ, Kareem, Bird=Basketball's Mount Rushmore, followed by Steph, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, Timmy and Shaq.
i think if he wins MVP and another title and finals MVP this year, he'll be in that 11-15 range. another MVP and title in the next few years after this year and he'd move into the top 10. if he can get to 5 MVPs or 4 titles, then he could be top 5. he's got a long way to go but Denver has a solid core that isn't going anywhere and he's still in his prime.
There is just one player in the NBA who can box out Jokic out of the paint and his playing for Nuggets. Its DeAndre Jordan.
if he ends his career with at least 4-5 Championships being the FMVP on all those wins, one could argue he is a top ten player of all time
Bruh, that puts him at #3 behind MJ and LeBron. 3 MVPS and 2 FMVPs is more than enough for top 10.
At worst top 5
yall tripping, he would litterly be third with something like that. + MVPS. he would actually be contending with lebron and MJ
The reason Jokic gets the hate he does is bc compared to other MVPs like Lebron, Jordan, Steph, etc he’s not considered as exciting as those guys. Big guys are never fan favorites. As great as Shaq & Duncan were they were never as popular as Kobe or Wade. Historically swingmen to point guards are universally loved while nobody roots for Goliath 🤔
Shaq was more popular than Kobe at one point
@@rods7028 you’re right. When Kobe was in high school ‘ Shaq was playing in the Finals with the Magic🤔😆
@@rods7028 it’s not a skill thing, it’s an entertainment thing. At the end of the day sports is entertainment and the most skilled, entertaining players are wings & guards. This is easy to gauge also. Just off the top of my head look at who has the largest shoe contracts, who are the largest vote getters for the All Star team, look at who’s rookie cards are worth the most $. Easy peasy😎
I think it’s because the athletic, fluid perimeter game is more aesthetically pleasing to many. It’s also more easy to emulate and aspire to for most averaged sized humans. How many people playing pick-up are big or strong enough to approximate what Shaq or Giannis can do? But anybody can shoot a fadeaway like Kobe or launch a three off the dribble like Steph.
@@jdankerdake REALLY?! Captain 🧑✈️ Obvious 👍😆
🃏
4MVP
Imma say it. I dont think you can have steph over kobe. I was writing out a whole piece but then i thought no. It should be somewhat obvious as to why imo
Worst mvp in 40 years my a$$, love to see ppl so salty so afraid like shaq so dumb at the end that can't or won't admit that Jokić is best player in 4 years span and my god if he win this year look out He's top 10 i would say top 5 ffs!!!!!!
Hakeem is the second best center of all time. I will die on that hill
Nope. Bill Russell and Wilt played center. Hakeem is top 5. Hakeem vs Shaq is a legitimate debate. Guys like Moses and Walton also gave a case. Kareem is the clear #1.
@@havok6280 Russell and wilt were playing against their local high school math teachers. Hakeem torched Shaq and Robinson in the playoffs
@@bustercherry6969your kids generation will frame this as "Hakeem went against a rapper who didn't take basketball seriously and a military veteran. He never won anything while Jordan was active"
Kobe Bryant not in your top ten????? I mean what are we doing here
I'm a Lakers fan, born in LA, and I have never once heard anyone talk about Jokic being a bad MVP. Every single person thinks he's a genius on the court and should have the 2 he won and the one he was cheated out of when Embiid won it.
Then you don't listen to Nick Wright. He said Joker is one of the worst MVPs.
@@havok6280 I do not. And I also assumed Russillo was talking about regular people and not media personalities that are paid to just say dumb stuff daily for hours on end to get views.
@@EvanBloch why would you assume that?
@havok6280 because of what he says at 1:28. He he just says "Lakers fans" and "people" like random fans are contacting him. Why would I assume he's talking about a public figure?
@@havok6280 and if you were referring to the "paid to say dumb stuff" bit, you can't actually believe these talking heads legit believe every take they say. They need to get clicks and eyeballs. Saying ludacris stuff gets those.
SMH media is so prisoner of the moment. They literally made steph the most overrated player of all time and lebrick 2nd this generation. Hope they don't do it to jokic. Probably top 20 right now. Winning this year would make him top 15. But the steph top 10 or even top5/1 non sense is absolutely unacceptable.
The jokic discourse comes from the fact America is getting its ass kicked when it comes the best of the best, Jokic giannis and luka are the 3 best players right now and sga and embiid are right there
1 MJ 2 LBJ 3 Joker
The Kobe disrespect is insane. Literally the only thing Stephen Curry could do on a basketball court better than Kobe is shoot and pass. He was arguably the greatest number 2 in the history of the NBA during the three championship, run with Shaquille and the Lakers, and then takes three Laker teams to the NBA finals, including back to back with no prime top 75 All-time player alongside him and a guy who barely made the Hall of Fame And arguably shouldn’t have in Pau Gasol as his #2 teammate and we’re arguing him or Curry?? let’s just not even mention his 9 all defensive team selections. But yes, people are going to argue him because he’s “more popular” 🥴😒
Steph and Duncan over Kobe? Like….really?
Easily.
This is the media narrative since LeBron became the face.... Complete erasure of their legacies to boost klutch clients
And why do we completely dismiss the fact that Kobe was a clear no 2 on team that 3 peated lol
In the 11-13 range with Steph and Hakeem.
Steph is top 8. Better than Kobe, more accolades than Wilt, and is the only reason there is a debate between Lebron and MJ for all the times Golden State stopped Lebron.
@@bwpitlik1290 Curry and Kobe both got two rings as the undisputed best player.
And then it's down to...
Kobe 00-02 > Curry 17-18
@@bwpitlik1290Kobe was a 12x All-Defensive player and 15x All-NBA (11x First Team). Steph is 0x and 9x with only 4 First Teams. 1 out of 4 FMVPs doesn’t put him past Kobe, Duncan, or Shaq IMO. And Curry missed the Playoffs when fully healthy in his prime in ‘21. Kobe at least got Smush and Kwame to the first round in ‘06.
@@jdankerdake Kobe is literally the worst defensive player to make an All Defense 1st team. Kobes BEST season as a defender was '99 when he didn't make All D and rated as the 34th best defender in the league. That was his BEST. He was good on defense when he tried. That's why Phil constantly tried to shame him into caring about defense. Kobe was lazy on d for the first 3 and a half quarters and gambled for steals constantly.
@@bwpitlik1290Curry’s defense keeps him from being that high.
What about D Wade? Y’all never talk about Wade, The Disrespect!
Wait hold on….y’all listed a top 10 with Bird, West, Duncan, Curry and no Kobe. It’s very clear that someone needs to take their basketball cards. These two are not authorized to talk hoops any longer.
What Olajuwon did in 94 and 95 was never seen. Even today. And he never had any Pippen, Kobe, Jamal Murray, any second star or close to a star. And Olajuwon was the primary offense player and was the primary defender on the other team best player.
Clyde was definitely a star. My only beef with Hakeem is, he was never the best player in the world as Jokic currently is. Still very obviously top 15ish all time
Dirk Nowitzki says hi
@@Jayhuffington Clyde was in 95 and not on prime. And Hakeem was best player in world those years. And should have been mvp over Barkley in 93.
@@mr.e347 Clyde was still a star, even all nba level, and averaged around 21 points as the second option in Houston, he was a vital part in their run
@@mr.e347 which one made it to the finals and which lost in the conference semis? Barkley was easily the 2nd best player on the Dream Team behind MJ. He earned his MVP.
Listen I'm an objective Laker fan i have Duncan over kobe in that 6 to 7 range but we gotta stop ignoring Kobe's 08-10 run 3 straight finals appearances 2 chips and 2 finals mvps in the western conference without at top 75 teammate. He completed dominated Duncan in 08 WCF
Magic, MJ, Kareem, Bird=Basketball's Mount Rushmore. I've got Steph at #5, followed by Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, Timmy and Shaq. Jokic is knocking at the door.
To mention Tim Duncan, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon and even freakin' Durant and not say that Wilt Chamberlain was better than all of them, by far, is ridiculous. And putting Steph in front of Jerry West?!?!? I really like Bill but damn. The recency bias is strong. 👌 🇺🇲
Jokic will retire as the best center of all time. Stamp it
Kareem exists. It’s never going to happen.
That BILL alltime top 10 list is nasty.......THE REAL ALLTIME LIST IS MJ,KAREEM, MAGIC, KOBE, DUNCAN, LEBRON, BIRD, SHAQ, CURRY, HAKEEM
Top 10 Cult of Personality players
Middle-aged white dudes sure love to slander Kobe just to make themselves sound intellectual and edgy. Just like that annoying guy who always says "the movie is okay but the book is better"
Baldy said Kobe was only highter because of popularity. That's an actual statement from an MVP voter. And people wonder why Kobe only has 1 MVP
You can look back at Bill's article after Kobe scored 81. He gave Kobe some backhanded compliments and then magically figured out that Sasha hated Kobe because he was taking too many shots.The same Sasha who would run through a wall for Kobe
That's the standard of media we're dealing with folks
Jokic numbers may not max out for his career though because he's likely to retire early. Not the kind of guy who cares at all about legacy. At least not yet, I suppose never say never
He literally said he is obsessed with winning.
larry bird had the same kind of body like joker n luka and he had back injuries and it derailed his career later in his life and joker allready has back problems which are only going to get worse as he ages and that could derail him just aswell. thats why i think he has to take advantage of the nba while hes healthy cuz i dont think his game will age well just cuz hes not super in shape and athletic nor do i believ he wants to play till hes super old he just seems like once his "prime" is over he will give up the nba
What the fuck are you even on about? 😂 What back problems, he's been the most durable and healthy player of the past 6 years. Also, he's the most in shape athlete in the game did you listen to what Bill and Ryen talked about? He never gets tired, he plays 40 mins in the playoffs and has energy late in games every time. You don't know when he's going to retire either, he said he's obsessed with winning and loves competing.
Yes, I think Jokic is already one of the greats, but it's too early for this conversation.
I can’t have Steph Curry ahead of Kobe Bryant. I say this as a Kobe hater. The man was a 12x all defensive performer. That needs to be talked about more.
I couldnt stand kobe
But stop it with curry being better
Stop it
Give Curry prime Shaq, and he wins five or six championships. 🤷🏻♂️
@@johnbrowntheprophetGive Kobe Klay, Dray, Durant and Igoudala and he never lets anyone win from 2015 to 2022.
@@dimitrijetucovic1307 - You would have to swap one of those players out (Klay, since they’re both shooting guards). And KD only stayed for three years, so your comment is highly flawed. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️
@@dimitrijetucovic1307 Kobe, Durant, and Klay would all still get hurt though. Draymond would still get suspended. This is a bad analogy
If nba folded tommorrow Jokic is 100 percent ahead of Durant . I value peak over longevity.
Said no one ever
Fans value peaks and primes
Athletes value longevity
putting curry ahead of kobe is just asinine
It’s not a good argument 😂 I don’t understand how playing defense never comes into play. Curry is better than Kobe offensively. Not by much. Kobe is miles better than Curry defensively. Not even close.
1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Curry
10. Shaq
11. Bird
12. Hakeem
13. Jokic (if he goes b2b)
14. Zeke
15. Oscar
Kareem tops Lebron
Good list, Jokic will jump even more throughout the career if he keeps this up. There's no ceiling
Curry can’t be ahead of Shaq. They have the same # of rings, but Shaq’s Finals performances were two dominant.
Bird should be way higher imo
@@EmraldoDaSilva 💯
What Jerry did to move outside the top 10 was that he didn't win!!! Jerry doesn't belong in this conversation anymore and I am shocked Bill has kept him in it this long. Also - Kobe is an emotional pick by Bill to move into top 10. Kobe and Steph are the only guys that needed a better player on their team to win multiple titles - so I believe those guys are on the outside looking in. If Shaq and KD did not lead the way and win those FMVPs, we're not talking about Steph and Kobe having the titles that they do. That should count against them. Hakeem/Wilt/Shaq/Bird/ Duncan never needed that. Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, LeBron, Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem is still the top 10 to me. If Jokic wins 1 more, alongside a FMVP and MVP - Joker moves into the top 10 without question. He leapfrogs KD, Steph, Kobe, Hakeem, and Wilt and is right there knocking on Shaq's door.
You get that Jerry West is the logo of the league, right? He is the only player to win finals mvp one a losing team. West in the top 10 isn't crazy. Personally I have him top 15, but he has a case.
@@havok6280 ok give me the case...
To me Steph is not ahead of Hakeem or Kobe two great two players who were THE alphas on their teams.
Dreymond not Steph is the Alpha on GS.
Also these guys didn’t go running to KD and beg him to join an already stacked team that couldn’t get past Lebron. Everyone blames and criticizes KD for this BUT KD did not fly to Long Island to beg to join the GS warriors … Steph Klay Dreymond did that. That was so weak that I can’t put Steph on top ten bc he got the best player at that time to win 2 rings and KD was the man on those teams. Weak.
"THE alphas on their teams" Kobe was Shaq's waterboy and then he watched Pau Gasol carry him to the 2010 title 😂
@@MPHswayze You have a point with Kobe. He's not on MY top ten b/c he was NOT the alpha for the 4 trips they made to the finals with Shaq. Shaq was the man. Still at least he was an Alpha later on and got to 2 finals as the alpha. Steph not in Kobe's class there but still a great player on offense only.
Kobe 9th 😂😂😂
...
Jerry West top10 all time? Smoking crack
If he 3peats he is second only to Jordan and maybe better
curry never will be better than kobe he is top 5
Not having kobe in this list at all is nonsense. Literal nonsense
Kobe fanatics are so relentlessly homoerotic about his "greatness." He's the most flawed player in the "top 20" but you dorks demand he be compared to Jordan 🙄
No Ryen Kobe isn’t higher than Steph cause he’s “more popular”…… it might be the more all nbas and countless all defensive teams he has over him ❗️❗️❗️
The Kobe disrespect..
He not a top 10 player
@@nerothelost9605cope
Why disrespect ? Nobody with a brain can have Kobe high on the list. He has 1 MVP. There are 8 players right now with 3 or more MVPs.
He’s not top 10, Kobe is top 5
2 Boston guys and Ryan is already on record saying he's not a kobe guy when he was alive they were even more harsher on him
I'm not a Kobe fan by any means. I'm a Boston boy after all. But is Bill THAT triggered over Kobe beating the Big 3 that he's gonna pretend Jerry West should be ranked above him? lmao
West is the logo for a reason. If not for Russell, West has at least 6 rings. He was a far better shooter than Kobe. Even Kobe acknowledged how great West was and they were friends.
Curry over kobe is ridiculous
Talk about recency bias. Kobe is without a doubt in the Duncan ,bird, range no question…
Insane. This is what makes it tough to take bills ranking seriously.
@@TizzleFKobe was a horrible shooter as far as efficiency. He doesn’t belong in the top . The Lakers are popular and that’s why he is considered greater than he really was . He is another d wade but a worse shooter
It isn't ridiculous. Steph is arguably the best shooter of all time. Kobe is maybe the second best 2 guard after MJ. Steph's shooting changed the way basketball is played.
Curry has two MVPs to Kobe’s one and his MVP seasons were of higher caliber than any season Kobe had in his entire career. Curry won two with Durant and four overall. Kobe won three with Shaq and five overall. Curry has one Finals MVP to Kobe’s two but Curry’s 2022 Finals saw him put on a greater performance than Kobe ever has in the Finals, since the only truly efficient Finals series he had was against the underdog Nets in a sweep in 2002. What could possibly swing the argument back towards Kobe is the fact that he succeeded during the most defensively inclined era in NBA history (1999-2004) and that he was an all-time defender at the 2 guard when engaged.
Jokic would give Bill Russell a 50 piece on 75% shooting
And Russell would still win. Wilt put up numbers on Russ, but Russ usually won.
@@havok6280 Jokic 50 points; Celtics 77 def. Nuggets 74
Kobe is better than Steph. A better all-around player
Kobe was a better athlete and defender. But Steph is arguably the greatest shooter of all time. What is Kobe the greatest at?
@@havok6280 in my opinion the greatest BASKETBALL player I've ever watched personally. My definition of the best all-around basketball player I've ever seen---which also includes the two things you mentioned above. Has nothing to do with stats----he's more fluid, versatile, his movement, the way he could outplay 2-3 defenders, the way he got to the basket, the way he defended.
Skills overall was superior to Curry.
@@joeg2258 so Kobe was better than MJ at all the things you listed?
My question was what is Kobe the greatest at. You listed a bunch of things MJ did better than him.
@@havok6280 no. No I didn't. But that's your opinion. That's my answer. I said in my opinion Kobe did all those things better than anyone else. If you're gonna follow up something I said with YOUR opinion, thats fine.
@@joeg2258 it’s not opinion. Who has the higher career scoring average? Who has more scoring titles? Which one was DPOY, MJ or Kobe? Who has the higher vertical and 40 time?
They lose all credibility when u say curry over kobe how many
Alll defensive teams for curry ??? Oh 0 u say ???!! EVERY ONE IN THE TOP TEN CAN PLAY DEFENSE ...SHAQ WAS LAZY BUT WOULD KNOCK U OUT
Curry changed the way basketball is played. His impact on the game is far greater than Kobe's.
@havok6280 yeah he did not in a good way ..... bill a hater kobe is top 3 all time ..but u kids today don't respect defense that's why your favorite player is losing in tge playoffs right now ...cause they ain't calling gimme fouls .....basketball is played at both ends of the floor.... period.....only tru ballers know that ....that's why people who actually played in tge nba ..have kobe top 3 .... bill Simmons is a joke
@havok6280 Luka James harden ...offense only .....I'm.glad guys like Shai and my favorite current player ant play both sides of the ball we getting back to tru ballers
@@Hunter_s_morrisonfirst, I guarantee I’m older than you are, so slow your role. Second my favorite player is MJ. Third whether you like it or not, 3 is more than 2 and even centers shoot 3s now. Players who change the game are important in a historical context. If you don’t understand that you aren’t a real fan. And finally spelling helps make you not look like a moron.
Kobe top 3 is a joke. You think he’s better than MJ, Kareem, LBJ, Magic, and Russell? 4 of those 5 were all world defenders.
U probably never played ball that's why all nba players have kobe kobe top 3 his peers is the only opinion that matters ..u a bill Simmons lame lol