My mom’s final years were battling cancer, losing her brothers, battling sickness from cancer treatments. On one of our last phone calls I cannot count how many times she said, “God is so good Logan. He’s been good to me. He’s given me a good life.” She passed away 5 days ago. She was an incredible woman.
My thoughts are with you, i don't believe there's a God, myself, and i think your situation is the ideal go - to counter argument for when Christians say God is all good and loving, because he created everything including cancer I presume, which suggests he wanted people to suffer. This os one of the true harms of religions.
@@nickydaviesnsdpharms3084 I don't want to coopt this comment about personal tragedy to turn it into a long debate, but I do think it is worth bringing up some brief counter points to what you have said. While suffering is sometimes part of God's plan, it is NEVER the end goal - God did not create cancer just so that people will suffer. The proof for this is in the Crucifixion, yes, Jesus had to suffer immensely in order to reconcile us with God, but the Resurrection shows that it was all in service to a higher purpose. We may not be able to fully see that purpose, limited as we are by time and Earthly eyes, but that does not mean it will not be revealed in the fullness of creation. Humans have a dualistic nature, we are both made in the image of God but also inherently fallen and sinful, and suffering often comes from the process of trying to overcome that fallen nature. While our own suffering will always fall short of what is required for atonement, Jesus' perfect sacrifice has given us an opportunity to be truly reconciled with God. And, importantly, I think there is comfort to be found in remembering that no matter how much we suffer, how much we struggle, our Creator God has gone through it too.
@@DeesDNP if by “asshole” you mean vommon knowledge then I’ll accept. Your previous statement makes unobserved assumptions about how divinity works and invalid points. All you did was state your claims but never backed them up. Cope harder 😿😿😿
as a human my supposedly limited human wisdom dictate me than if i had the power to be outside of creation and know all detail of life and all outcomes, i wouldn’t create it, because it makes me the ultimate root of all evil, all unjustice not just the root of justice and good. But that’s not the christian ideology, god is all just, good, morale, loving and that’s why he create us. what you’re implying there it being not wise in my human logic, don’t mean it’s not wise for god. so your god divine nature makes a humanly logically bad action, possibly all good and all just because it’s made by god. So im sorry i don’t see wisdom here
@@majiccouly Then you suggest there is NO GOOD in the world. Even with evil, is there not value in people working through their struggles, helping each other and creating a society able to thrive in the face of adversity? It makes sense for God to create things, because there is value in human life and human goodness and compassion
@@CubanGK Ok explain to me where did I say that there is no good ? Unless you’re coming at me with the idea that only god create good ? Now let me ask you, why didn’t you say the same for evil? Are you implying god didn’t create evil? Is evil uncreated too? Did evil already exist and just try to invade humanity’s will after god created us ? Listen if you want to talk about god as there is a possible creator, fine. But if we go in detail, and you tell me that you’re talking about any abrahamic faiths god, define by what’s in their scripture associated with human logic (their scholars), even sola scriptura Christian’s still apply their own logic to understand the text, then I’m sorry no. I already said in my last comment why such a god can’t be the definition of justice morality and goodness. You can’t have him give us a thou shall not murder commandement and then order us to kill the wife, kids, infants(under 2 yo kids), donkeys, camels and tell us they deserve it cause of their evil parents or ancestors. There is no situation making killing infant all just, all good and moral. Also saying what you said would imply non god believers would all be evil doers, I’m sorry but history and today reality shows this isn’t true at all.
@@CubanGK Ok explain to me where did I say that there is no good ? Unless you’re coming at me with the idea that only god create good ? Now let me ask you, why didn’t you say the same for evil? Are you implying god didn’t create evil? Is evil uncreated too? Did evil already exist and just try to invade humanity’s will after god created us ? Listen if you want to talk about god as there is a possible creator, fine. But if we go in detail, and you tell me that you’re talking about any abrahamic faiths god, define by what’s in their scripture associated with human logic (their scholars), even sola scriptura Christian’s still apply their own logic to understand the text, then I’m sorry no. I already said in my last comment why such a god can’t be the definition of justice morality and goodness. You can’t have him give us a thou should not murder commandement and then tell us to kill the wife, kids, infants(under 2 yo kids), donkeys, camels and tell us they deserve it cause of their evil parents or ancestors. There is no situation making killing infant all just, all good and moral.
Bad things happening would matter if this was the only life we live. But according to Jesus, there is life after death and in this next life, there is no more suffering. When you take that into consideration, that’s ultimately where the word “hope” comes from.
Sorry dear but how does this alleged and unproven "afterlife" in any way whatsoever negate and justify the unnecessary suffering of innocent babies and children in this life ??
Ride a bike without a helmet after a parent tells you not to. You could be ok or you could hurt yourself. It’s your free will. That pain from the injury will hurt parent despite them not doing it. Let that parent pass. Will it not affect the family who didn’t deserve that? This is why we suffer. Adam had authority over Gods creation. Because Adam fell the the consequences passed on to all creation. That’s what people, animals, nature, even bad weather are allowed to happen. That authority was given to others. And no one has to believe this but do your research on the topic so you will have the answer even if you don’t like it.
@@dwoncrawford5823 Who alledgedly was it got to choose Adams punishment? YOUR GOD of course. Could he have decided not to punish his descendants ? Of course. The definition of "justice" is receiving the punishment or reward one deserves. However no one "deserves" punishment for the actions of another, certainly not an innocent baby 🤮
i dont understand how suffering even plays a role when god repeatedly said this life is temporary. so is the pain. like why is this even debated about?
because they are atheist, they are not different from believers of any other religion such as Buddhism, they are just Buddhists without karma, because they do not have any proof of any god and inmediatly decide to believe in the inexistence of God, they haven't even explored the entire universe or other plains and the entirety of other plains in order to find god, so at the end they are equally or more irrational than those whom get accused of irrational, Christianity is at least rational as we have historical records wrote by historians whom affirm that it is pretty probable that Jesus might have commited the miracles that are said on the bible (and it is more than proven that he indeed existed)
Your unintelligent comment doesn’t say anything else than what you stated yourself : You don`t understand this. A wise man once said: You should keep an arm length distance from people who always seem to have very simple, banale answers to very complex questions. Here is the problem though…Imagen this scenario : In a dark street in a town, there stands two adults and a child. The adults are in their fifties and muscular. The little boy is tiny and only 8 years old, and he is screaming his lungs out for mommy, and have no idea what`s going to happen. But here is a 4th person sitting in a shadow area on a bench watching the entire thing, lets just call him Bob. Bob is not like the other three persons. Bob is almighty, omnipotent and all knowing. Bob already knows what’s going to happen, not only that, but he has foreseen this since all eternity. During the next 30minutes all hell breaks loose for the little boy as the to adults takes his clothes off him and rape him. When they are finished, one of the men takes a big knife and stabs the little boy to death. They dump the body into the nearby river to get rid of any evidence. The body was never found, and left is a family in utter despair, broken to pieces in sorrow……… This story is perhaps fictional, but it could very well be real as this has actually happened thousands of times just in our lifetime. The problem though is: Who is the evil one in this story? Is it the two rapist or is it Bob? Bob who really COULD do something about the situation, but didn`t? Why didn’t Bob intervene? There is four explanations: 1. Bob is NOT almighty and therefore cannot do anything. 2. Bob is almighty, but does not want to act (which is even worse) 3. God is not in charge, the devil are (which contradicts what Jesus said when he said «…All power in heaven and on earth is given to me») 4. God had a better future for the boy, in heaven, which also contradicts the scripture, as they way to the father is through belief in Christ, not through rape and murder. Therefore, I find it utterly stupid when preachers say something like this: Your not alone in your situation. God see your tears and your fears, he see your struggle and he see your pain. But how much comfort is it really in this statement? Let me ask one question: If that statement is true, then what is really the difference between the almighty God and my own shadow? Both of them follows me wherever I go, but none of them do anything about the anything. When a person is laying on the hospital-bed with their body full of cancer, does he then need a God who feals, or a God who heals??
Because these people are satanists trying to antagonise people they haven't even read any pages of the bible, they read supermna comics and get it confused with god, they think gods name is clak kent
The video brings the argument forth in terms of questioning the all loving aspect of god. Can it be true that god is all loving if he allows incredible acts of suffering to befall innocent people?
The best answer to this I've found is Consequences. The world was perfect and had no suffering until we chose to go against God. We brought suffering on ourselves and now we blame him for our actions.
So the 6,000,000 Jews who dedicated their lives to god were murdered and tortured in the most inhumane, horrible and grotesque ways because some woman 10,000 years ago ate an apple? Y’all are fucking unhinged lmao
If god answered prayers, cared for and loved his worshipers and was merciful, the Jewish diaspora and Holocaust would have never happened. The Jews are gods chosen people, they fullfill the Jewish law which Jesus told us to follow. The Jews come from the land of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew. Why would god allow such atrocities to happen to his chosen people who worship him to the fullest but answer Becky’s prayers who cheats on her husband and goes to church once a week?
11 днів тому+1
True, however it is still God that allows it to happen. We made the choice but responsibility is Gods. And he claims such responsibility. I think a slightly better way of looking at it is Justice. God is all-powerful, all-loving, and just. So he allows evil and suffering as it is just for us to receive such as a consequence of our actions. And he uses evil and suffering to push us closer to him after we chose to make a divide, and furthermore to show us his mercy with the contrast of what we deserve (and a taste of such ultimate punishment) to his forgiveness and way out.
This is literally exactly the same as "I beat you because i love you" Sounds like youre in an abusive relationship with god. If you personify god hes an absent abusive father.
@@kaydnburns5935 That's not true. You don't learn if you don't make mistakes and experience the consequences. To view him as an absent, abusive father figure is purely an uniformed and or an inexperienced view on everything God stands for. If you have consequences befall you from an action or actions, that's God letting you allowing them to happen so you can learn. He doesn't WANT you to suffer, but he can't make us do things. We choose to do whatever it is we wish to do, and if there's consequences, then he lets us suffer through them. There's a reason for everything that happens, and we won't always understand why.
@@trumpbellend6717So basically every god would be a monster because kids have birth defects? That's Shallow minded. Alot of these kids don't even blame god. It's mostly people like yourself
I don’t know but I rely on the scriptures of God working all things out for good (which includes bad stuff) and we rejoice in our suffering because it produces endurance and character. Jesus himself suffered horribly. God didn’t promise this life would be nice and easy
@@Birdie_4733 what are you basing this on? We may have it “pretty good” when it comes to material stuff, but I doubt god and his followers care about that. Suffering is still suffering.
1John 5 :19 ''We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.'' there it is, god is not responsible for suffering, because it is the devil who rules the world
Yes, suffering was caused by the devil and his legion of Doom. They started sin and suffering, causing death. I don't think Elohim necessarily wanted his creation to get corrupted with ugliness and pain, deformities, cancers, lying and murder, God cannot be tempted by sin nor does he tempt anyone, but each of us is lead astray by our own lust and desires.
@leebode4643 have you read the bible ? When the devil challenge god he didn't challenge the power of god, he said that god have no right to decide what is good and bad, he challenge the right of god to rule him, the Angels and humanity ( rebelion of Adam) ... God then say '' go and try it ''
I have faith that your faith is less than my faith, therefore i'm right, so god doesn't exist. I also have faith that you'll agree with me, therefore you can't disagree with me since i have more faith than you.
Damn all yall missing the point. Lemme reiterate. An honest RELATIONSHIP with Christ will reveal the answers to the questions you have that haven’t been satisfied. You don’t understand that a real tangible relationship with GOD is POSSIBLE. You will never understand until you submit your life and your pride to God and make Christ your God. Right now, you’ve made yourself your god. Fulfilling your own will. So you will ALWAYS live as a skeptic because you fail to lay down your pride.
@ deep down inside you’re afraid of the truth. Your human spirit living in darkness fears the truth. It fears to be brought into the light. That’s why you have this mindset. Open your mind. Open your heart. Dont trust me bro. I’m a human. Trust God. Just do it. Why are you such a coward. Jump off the deep end. Give your life to God. Find out for yourself. When you’re at rock bottom, you will know God’s love
There are several possible answers to why evil coexists with God. Cliff has it right that ultimately we don't know. However, through human reason we have come up with theories. My favorite; and the one that I think Dr.Tyson would most appreciate is the argument that evil doesn't exist at all it is only an absence of goodness that we observe. Think of good and evil like light or dark. If you took a person and raised them so far into space that no light from a star would ever reach them then they may believe that darkness was all that is. However, then when you show them the sun they would be able to reason that darkness is not real. It is only an absence of light. Similarly evil doesn't exist except as an absence of good.
Nonsense teleological evil is something that if an all powerful all loving God exists was "created" with foreknowledge and intent. Viruses, cancer, diseases, earthquake tsunamis ect that cause untold suffering and death to innocent babies and children. These are things that your God alledgedly "Chose" to create. An all powerful all loving God could and indeed would have created a would absent such things
You can replace the word “evil” with “the absence of good” but why would an all good, all powerful god create a world with so much “absence of good”? In other words, why isn’t there more good in the world when there so clearly could be?
This type of questions are a joke. Anybody with three working brain cells can answer them but people do not want to responsibility. Responsibility because people make other people suffer not God. But hey let's blame somebody else for not playing referee. And if somebody else does play referee because we are not as smart enough then we will start screaming "no free will".
@@TeoMininum You didn't address the natural disasters which would include all sorts of infant deaths that aren't influenced by our choices. Just pointing that out because it adds to the case of innocent's suffering which an all good entity would help. This takes nothing away from free will. That is a foolish argument.
Without suffering we get complacent. Without evil there is no good. You can’t have one without the other. God allows us to suffer because 1. we deserve it, and 2. So we remember him and we remember to be grateful for what we have. We deserve to suffer because we are all sinners. We deserve to die for our sins. But because is so Merciful, he allows us to come to Heaven if we repent and believe in him. He tests your faith through suffering. Evil isn’t from God, because God is good. Evil is the absence of God.
@@CuzCan1so god is an all powerful deity that is all good that can end our suffering if he so chooses but chooses not to in order to test our faith to him. Would that mean that biblically, it is a moral good if given the ability to prevent human suffering to allow other humans to suffer? Who are we to prevent suffering when god wants us to and intends for us to?
@@ishanebrowni suffering isn’t necessarily only a test for those who are suffering, but also a test for those who see suffering. As Christian’s, If we see suffering we are supposed to prevent it or bring the sufferer to Christ. Also, not all suffering is physical. It could also be spiritual or mental.
@@T1phuoc then why did he punish them even though they had no concept of right or wrong? Why did he punish their descendants when it was only Adam and Eve who did "wrong"? Even better why did he place the tree down KNOWING they would eat from it?
Sin and rebellion is what has brought suffering into the world. Plain and simple. This answer is satisfactorily answered right at the beginning the Bible. God created the world without suffering. We threw it away. He sent His son Jesus to live a perfect life, give His life freely for us, all to restore our relationship with Him. But suffering will not cease until Jesus comes again.
@@vladtheemailer3223 He is though. Were experiencing the actions of another person that causes us suffering. God does not interfere with our day to day lives. What happens is what happens because of our faults and mistakes. If God wasnt all loving he would not have made us sentient beings with a free will so that we can disobey him. And for natural disasters, those were made before we were, so we have no right to complain about them.
perhaps we just aren't able to see the spiritual greater good. We look at things through a physical lens. This is a test. If man didn't have free will for good or evil this would not be a test. God doesn't do bad things. He does necessary things. People do bad things. Also are you expecting the hand of God to come out of the sky and stop each person from committing evil? Would you expect the president to come to your house to discipline your kid? No. Bit if everyone's kid started behaving poorly, perhaps he would interject. Bad things happen , but if you develop a relationship with God and ask for righteous things with complete sincerity and respect, you just might get your proof.
@@Billnyeurmomsagayguy So according to your rational when babies and children suffer and die because of things like cancer its because of their _"faults and mistakes"_ ( shakes head in disgust ) if you really think this reasonable you should have no place in our moral discourse. 🤮
God doesn't want suffering in our world. Death and suffering entered our world through sin. As long as sin persists we will suffer. God doesn't want us to suffer at all. In fact, God tells us the solution. That solution is Jesus Christ. He takes away our sin and he will eventually return and sin will be abolished. Suffering is a consequence of an action. It doesn't even have to be my own actions that cause my suffering.
Why would an omnipotent being such as god allow something that he doesn’t want in the world? Would he not be able to create it in a way where he is happy with it? It logically doesn’t make sense that an all powerful all knowing being would have something in the world that he doesn’t want.
@@ishanebrowni It’s a cosmic court case. It’s about the devil and the angels as much as it is about humans. God chose to gave some of his creations free will (angels, humans), that means that they have the ability to go against his way. He is patiently letting things take their course to demonstrate that his way is perfect. Once the question of God’s sovereignty is answered in an absolute sense, it will never have to be answered again. Every living thing will rejoice under his rule. To illustrate, a math teacher is teaching his class. A student jumps up and yells that the teacher is doing it wrong. The teacher is patient. Instead of snapping at the child or sending them out of the classroom, he hands the chalk to the student. “Go ahead. Show me how you would do it.” As the student struggles to implement his strategy in front of the class, it becomes clear to everyone in the room that the teacher’s method was the correct one, a conclusion that throwing the student out of the class would not have achieved.
@@ishanebrowniand it does make logical sense that an omnipotent being would make something that has the potential to be bad. He wants his creation to choose him. His standards. To choose you must have a choice. Love without choice is nothing, less than nothing.
@@owenlee4585Hey! I am a follower of Christ and I am 12 years old. I understand that God gave us free will, but about those who are born with nature birth defects and grow up with cancer?
1. They don't. 2. Since the next life is eternal--there is no point in rushing to get to it. It's not like you're lessening something. 3. Once a person leaves this world, they have no ability to preach the gospel to unbelieving loved ones anymore.
If this life is so insufferable and bad, why do Atheist's cling on to it as something good? If it were true that God created this earth and this life and that Atheists cling to it, wouldn't that mean that His creation was good? To answer your question, from the "faithful" perspective.The next life will be great because we will have conquered the human experience willfully and gracefully. Jesus has shown the example of how we "should" live a perfect life. He conquered fear, sin and death. We strive to be like Him, and call upon Him for strength in tough times. This life is a gift from God, and even Atheist's view it as good, even if they don't believe in God. So why should the faithful treat a gift from God as something we should quickly rid ourselves of? This life is given to us for a reason. There are many lessons to be learned, the greatest lesson of all being that we need to love and serve one another under any circumstances, as Jesus did for us.
@@BroadMeadow-d9s Incorrect. People have committed suicide in a way that they wouldn't think is suicide because they believed it would get them to heaven sooner. I would suggest being careful when you choose to speak for all humans in the entire world for all history.
First and foremost, I have to remind the readers of this message of the story of Job, a great man loved by everyone in his community, multiple sons and daughters, wise like few others, possessor of great fortunes and power in general. All this was due to the fact that he was a great fearer of Jehovah, to the point of sacrificing for his children just in case they had sinned. And all his possessions, children and even his own health were completely taken away, stolen, destroyed or killed, and all because of a simple question that Satan asked the Lord, a very valid question. Is Job a worshiper of the Lord because he genuinely loves Him? Or does he love the Lord because it suits Job? The story is long, full of suffering, where even his wife and "friends" accuse him. But all this suffering brings what is possibly one of the best verses in the Bible. Job 19:25-27 "I know that my Redeemer lives, And at last he will rise above the dust; And after my skin is undone, In my flesh I must see God; Which I will see for myself, And my eyes will see it, and no other, Although my heart fails within me." A totally broken and destroyed man is the one who has to say this to show us that the suffering of the world is totally indiscriminate for everyone, but it is because of and thanks to the Lord, that this suffering is bearable.
In my humble opinion, God gave us complete and 100% freedom so collectively we could stop all of this suffering but we choose not to, IE governments! We could literally stopped or suffering the same way we could keep our children from burning their hands on a stove, it's just collectively we have to stop the starvation and the war. We let ourselves suffer. It's not God's fault
@@haitaelpastor976by coming together to figure out how to limit them. If we could redirect a meteor we can stop the ground from shaking. It will take time but so does everything.
Literally every point and question is answered in the Bible. Maybe not the answer you’re looking for, but it answers it. Read it. If you’re satisfied with believing that it doesn’t answer every question, then I can’t help you. If you can’t find the answer, you missed it. If you don’t believe me, again, I can’t help you. Also it’s hypocritical to be satisfied with the Big Bang theory and then bring your rational questions to the Bible.
Why do you people continue to say what Adam and Eve did was evil? and you said ''they thought they knew better than God'' Both Adam and Eve were created ignorant without any understanding of right or wrong, it wasn't until they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that they gained this knowledge, so that makes them necessarily not culpable, and this in turn makes God grossly immoral as he knows everything but still punished them.
Just a verse that i wanted to share because the holy spirit told me that somebody here needs it :) And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6
How many scientists are in Christian faith? Catholic Church is patron of science who accept theory of Evolution. Theory of Evolution is God’s ultimate creation. Most of the scientific findings were founded by Catholics and certain philosophy writings were written by Catholics. I respect all scientists regardless of religion or not. Faith and reason can coexist, not to debate. God allows us to explore science. But blaming God for suffering in the world is childish and belief in authoritarianism. If God prevents it, then we humanity never grow and learn. God is like a parent while humanity are children. If God is not good, then we humans image of God are not good. Isn’t that oxymoron?
You can't be thankful in life for all the good stuff we have, if there is nothing worse than good, you have to have bad and negativity in life to be thankful.
1:11 this guy, right at the first argument, he let aside the concept of sin and it's consequences... Convenient. It's like, lets give an argument to disprove something but let aside the actual concept that explains why there is suffering and how that has everything to do with us - SINNERS - and not God. This guy is bought by media. So smart but lets aside critical info just for convenience.... Yeah. The dirt he throws will not get into my eyes.
Heres what 🎉 say, stop wasting time wondering why bad things happen. We have all asked that before. If God didnt give us free will , people would still criticize him for oppressing us. Bad things happen on earth in the absence of God. Its like asking why is their dark in the absence of light? Instead maybe ask God to show you a sign. Develop a relationship with him then you might see for yourself he is all powerful , and Good. Sometimes bad things need to happen for the greater good. Also, perhaps we are looking at death wrong. Perhaps pulling us out of this world to be with him is a blessing we are unable to see.
Two things, firstly what has "freewill" got to do with the suffering of innocent babies and children because of things like viruses, cancer, diseases, earthquakes, tsunamis ect ?? Why would an all powerful all loving God create such things ? 🤮
Secondly, presumably you agree that "freewill" if it exists by definition cannot be the thing that determines the choices we make. If you an I both have "freewill" and are presented with options *"A"* or *"B"* we can make different choices, so clearly "freewill" was not the determining factor that resulted in said "choice" So the question then arises, what was the determing factor ?? Are there no determining factors influencing "choice" ? is it simply random outcomes, a matter of luck or a "coin toss" 🤔 if so then how could God possibly hold us responsible ?? If there are indeed factors that influence the outcome of our "choices" then what are they ?? Is it down to our "nature" desires, greed genetics, along with other internal and external influence from our environment?? Which of these factors involved in Adams "choice" was God *NOT* responsible for ?? His genetics his nature, his knowledge and understanding, every single atom of every single internal and external influence from his environment was aledgedly created by God with foreknowledge was it not ?? If you think I'm wrong then NAME the factors God did *NOT* create with foreknowledge ?? 🙄🤔 If you are unable to do this then tell me why Adam was responsible for his "choice" not God??
_"K all the males from amongst the little ones and K every woman who has known a man intimately. But keep alive for yourselves all the young maiden girls"_ Only the indoctrinated would ever describe the above biblical instructions as "Good"
We are the sum of our experiences good and bad, and God instructs us to share the Gospel. Perhaps, as hard as it may be, we need to witness to those who have been through similar circumstances. For example, if you’re a parent who lost a kid, but are a believer in Christ, perhaps your role in life is to share why you still love God with somebody else in similar circumstances who doesn’t know God.
I’m glad he said that he doesn’t know why, but I don’t like how he ended up just straw manning into free will to present this whole speech. The question was why does natural suffering occur ie natural disasters, not human to human suffering like punching
you did not understand, God was with Adam and Eve before but because of disobedience, God step back because humans THINK they are better without him, just like many teenagers nowadays, they dont care about their parent's advice. yet God so love us that he sent his only begotten son for us, you and me, to forgive the sins of our ancestors and our sins as long as we trust on him. God is letting us to govern ourselves because he wants us to realize that at the end of the Day we need him to unify the world because right now it doesn't matter who sits on any government, all falls apart, war rages everywhere and everytime.
Suffering is a result of sin. When the lamb is torn apart by wolves only ones suffering is ended, while the others torment must continue. If life was fair we’d all endure the crucifixion.
@@ggmode9819 2:07 I mean, cliffe says straight up that he doesn’t know and that the Bible doesn’t answer the question of why suffering occurs from natural causes. Either way if that is the answer you want to give, i believe god is acting immorally. I mean, let’s say that a natural disaster occurs and I have the full capability to help someone who’s life is in peril, why should I not follow in gods footsteps and allow them to suffer just as he does? He caused the natural disaster, so why should I interfere while god is willfully absent, sent the disaster, and witnesses the person suffer same as me? Why is it immoral if I do it, but moral if he does it? We can also use the same teenager idea you brought up. Since god stepped back because humans thought they were better without them, would it be moral for me to kick my son out of the house after he disobeyed me? After all, if god can do it, why can’t I? He’s the pinnacle of all good, so anything he does IS all good. Meaning kicking my son out of the house, or letting someone suffer is a good thing since all god does is good. If you don’t consider those good acts, that means god is not all good🤷♂️
@@ggmode9819 God already knew ahead of time, that Eve would fall for the serpents lies, and gone ahead and eat from the tree of life, when she was specifically instructed not to, but as Cliff said and also stated in the bible, god chose to limit his power, by giving humans the ability to choose for themselves. But apparently, every action has consequences, and God had to teach that to Eve and Adam, thus the beginning of Sin into the world, wasn't by God, but by mankind, and God would step back and let mankind choose for themselves, rather a test to see who would, acknowledge him as the creator. And keep his ways.
God wants us to learn and grow. Thats why we are alive the people who have suffered the most usually are the most kind loving people you will meet. How are we supposted to enjoy heaven not knowing what hell is like? Everyone has to go throught their own hell for this reason. Life is hard it sucks but its rewarding. You dont give your kids everything because you want them to learn and appreciate what youve done and learned i think god behaves the same way. God does love you regardless of who you are or what you have done but he also wants us to choose the good. How can we choose good if we dont know evil? I hope anyone reading this knows god loves them and may you find peace in this life and the life to come.
I already said this in one comment. I agree that there can't be good without evil. But that is a philosophical point of view. This does not prove god in any way.
@Мирич-з4еYou wouldn't comprehend it. Because you are certain science has the answer to everything ...so any other thing about the universe ...is just not it
@@clintonbobby8539 Here we go again. Assumptions are not proof of anything. Nowhere in the Bible is said why these things happen. God never told Job why all the bad things happen to him. He didn't knew that he was tested.
@@ianpage2509 Clive. Litellary Neil: "Disasters, Catastrophies, diseases" and I don't know what else. Clive: decides to only talk about desiese because only that thing fits his "suffering exists because people are sinners" narative.
@ZívacíBublina when God created the world he said it was good. After Adam and eve sinned was when the bad thingʻs happened. So it's logical to think that natural disasters and diseases happened after God punished Adam and eve.
What does love mean if you can't not love. And what need is there for love if life has no challenges? God created us to love, and out of love set us free, those who come back to God in love are meant to be, those who don't aren't.
The free will argument doesn't make sense, so we have sin because of free will. So when you go to heaven there is no sin, so in heaven there is no free will, everyone is just ordered around by God, doesn't sound very heavenly to me.
We have free will to not only sin,but to do good things.If we all were forced to worship god and not have free will then only good things would happen in this world which is good.But that doesn't mean satan wouldn't interfere because he tested Jesus himself.Jesus knew how to not be tempted.But if we are forced to be good and if we can't think about bad things then we would be easily tempted.The things we can learn from bad things happening around us is many.We can pray for others,we can learn from bad things on how to prevent it,we can learn on how to not be tempted again.😊
@@dafvlogs3252 heaven and hell is a state of mind. There's my idea...makes more sense to me imo besides ....you failed to answer dispute anything the OP just said sooooo care to explain that?
This life has always been temporary the ailments and afflictions that we are imposed on are merely tests to the freedom that God gives us. If we show Goodwill, even in sickness, it shows the Lord how righteous we are trying to be and how pure our hearts are in his name. If in the midst of affliction and sickness, we project heartache and pain, it shows that our hearts are not pure. This life is just a test. Some will pass some will fail. At the end of the day, whether you believe or not, you will be judged based on your pass actions according to the path God has given you. That will determine your eternity.
It seems pretty much all meaningful intellectual achievement and innovation is derived from necessity - suffering deemed ‘avoidable’, in most cases. Why would the single greatest tool for human growth & ingenuity be removed from the equation? The fact that we have the ability to recognize ‘suffering’ is also compelling…
If we only had happiness what kind of life would it be? A happy life comes if you follow Jesus. We all suffer, but Christians have faith and turn to Jesus in difficult situations to stay strong. This world isn't perfect because we humans rejected God and he, as a benevolent King accepts our chocie and lets us do our thing, including hurting others or letting us be in an imperfect world.
If life was perfect and we never had any problems I think many people would assume they either deserved it by default or at the very least would see no need for God. After all, their life is perfect, what do they need him for?
I do not follow God, but i am not an atheist as well... i've always thought that God doesn't always help us because he wants us to build our own destiny, and that there are always obstacles and problems in our path that we need to surpass. He lets us feel pain so we can LEARN. NO ONE can learn further without mistakes, injuries and accidents. When your life is done for, he will be there for you. Even though want to follow my own path, i sure trust God with all my heart, mind and soul, even if i want to follow my own footsteps. So STOP saying that God is not good, he is teaching you indirectly. ALL of these months of pain are there to teach you something valuable that you probably won't acknowledge instantly.
Right likes he teaches starving children in africa, many slowly dying of disease and lack of nourishment, what fucking lesson is that bringing, what can you really learn from that at such a young age, there is no growth in that kind of life because it is cut short by something of the natural world created by either a not all powerful god, a shit asshole god or just the big bang and the evolution of our universe.
@@sabaibaikari7023Depends on how you look at it. You'll never be satisfied with the answer if you look at it through your eyes. Look at the reasons behind why He did it and then forge your arguments. And if you know the answer then why ask?
@@sabaibaikari7023 Human thoughts turned completely evil thus basically corrupting them. Humans are part of the creation, animals are part of the creation, and so on and so forth. Thus human sin corrupted all creation. God simply wiped out all the corruption and preserved pairs of each animal on Noah's ark.
Here’s the issue: God KNEW humanity would rebel against him. He knew “if I put the tree of knowledge here at A, they will eat the fruit and rebel, if I put the tree of knowledge here at B, they will choose not to sin.” He knew and he, in his power, chose not to put the tree at B. He didn’t just ALLOW sin, he CHOSE it, knowing that this act would damn humanity to an eternal damnation. “But he gave his son to tell us a way out” you would not give credit to a man who saved someone from a house fire if he started the house fire just so he could save someone. God did not limit himself. HE tempted Adam and Eve, he ALLOWED suffering. That is why I cannot believe in an all powerful, and all loving God.
But since that was before satan tempted eve to eat the fruit, I believe that sin was not a factor yet. Nowhere in the scriptures did it imply that eve was tempted to eat the fruit by herself. Sin was pretty much introduced by satan.
4:47 EXACTLY what i think when i commit sin which is NOT good, i understand that god knows whats best for me but i jus keep doing sin over and over and over. i try to repent and all it does is delay the sins. i want to be righteous and loyal to god. but everytime i sin and i repent it feels like im using him.
Tyson’s argument was more so on natural causes not on evil caused by human decisions. The pastor never addresses Tyson’s argument. If anyone has an input I’d like to hear it
Jesus said, "Do not fear for I have overcome the God allowed evil so that a lesser being (us) that through Jesus, we can overcome such a world. The heavenly realm can now see that any rebellion is futile. Heaven is permanent. Our life on earth is a "vapor."
God didn't allow suffering, he limited his power so his creation could love him by choice. Then we rebeled and allowed evil into our world so, because of sin, there are natural disasters, natural deformaties, etc.
He still allows it. Look at Paul and how 3 times he asked God to remove the thorn from his flesh. God refused, saying it was better for Paul to depend on him. I think the same thing could apply to many people today.
Read Philosophical Foundation by Surrendra Gangadean. The answer is that Suffering serves not as punishment but as a call back from moral evil, natural evil restrains, calls back, and removes moral evil/sin from the believer who was called back. Its a simple solution
Yeah if god is all powerful and all knowing he knew the nature of humans depending on the way they were created before he first made adam and eve, it's like torturing a robot that has feelings because it did something you knew would happen if you programmed it in such a way. Yeah thanks god for making us suffer to remove evil you brought upon us by fate upon creation.
@emperorturtlez481 The nature for a created being it what it is designed for. The nature for a human is to do what a human is designed for. Free will is unrestricted (free) choice (will). The level you have free will at is the rational/thought level of your spirit, (your spirit. is comprised of thought, feeling, will). God creates because He is the Creator, or simply because he is. He is expressing his nature. Creation is revelation: necessarily, intentionally, and exclusively. God creates to reveal himself to all rational beings. Why did God permit the fall? (that was able to happen by free will). When Humans spiritually died, it shows the justice of God, for in the day that Adam failed to use reason to understand the basic things that are clear, he would suffer the consequence of not understanding. This is justice, there is always justice at the rational level. through the fall, God shows how He can be just and merciful to all rational beings objectively. How is He Merciful? Natural evil is imposed and serves as a call back from moral evil. Through these natural evil calls back people from not understanding the basic things that are clear. If you don't think God can be good and all powerful because of evil, your argument falls apart when we clarify what evil is, and you shouldn't hate mercy (natural evil) that makes no sense. " 1. Because of all the evil in the world I cannot see how it can be said that God is all good and all powerful. 2. Because of all the misunderstanding in the world I cannot see how it can be said that God is all good and all powerful. 3. Because of all the misunderstanding in me I cannot see how it can be said that God is all good and all powerful. 4. Because I have neglected and avoided the use of reason I cannot see what is clear about God"
@emperorturtlez481 Free will is unrestricted (free) choice (will). The level you have free will at is the rational/thought level of your spirit, (your spirit. is comprised of thought, feeling, will).
@emperorturtlez481 God creates because He is the Creator, or simply because he is. He is expressing his nature. Creation is revelation: necessarily, intentionally, and exclusively. God creates to reveal himself to all rational beings.
@haitaelpastor976 Come on, man, even people in the most remote locations on earth believe in an all-powerful creator. Every culture accounts for spirit and/or soul. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all speak of magick. Even Satanists believe in Jesus Christ, my lord. But you, you're special. You're smarter than billions of people who do believe.
@@Mufffinz First, that is an Ad Populum Fallacy. Just because of billions believe something, does not make it true. All humans believed for millenia that the Earth was flat. Second, notice I didn't say there can be no Creator... just that YOUR version of the Creator can't be. It's illogical.
"God is wither not all powerful or not all good" Yes,god is not all good,because god is fair. If we do something fairly in this world,we get hate. So it is something like that.
Saying god is not all good goes counter against the Bible though where they mention it numerous times. Plus if that were the case then that means god sins, which means he is no better than us since all sin weighs the same in his eyes
The answer is simple. Suffering is the cause of our own sin and the original sin. God gave us free will to choose and do what we so please to do. Due to us sinning we are bound to suffer whether is directly us or generational curses. God ain’t never said there will be no storm
Pain and sufferings one of the oldest methods of discipline but this is not why God allows it God allows it because we feel what he feels it hurts God when we dont choose him and he gave us everything his all. Yes jesus suffered for us and is still suffering for us but the price has been paid for you to live eternally without pain and sufferings woe the glory to be revealed.
You give Tyson a short spot at the beginning then have a banner saying listen to the end. Then you have an extremely long Christian statement with no allowance for Tyson to respond. This is biased and unfair. Shame on you!
This is not a debate. These are two different opinions. Tyson did not have to say a lot because his opinion was simple and short. Not really biased in my opinion. Two different points of view for people to think on.
This is why I don't fear death, I take comfort ( that Cliffe talked about ) in that Jesus died for me and took the rightful punishment for my sins and that God is waiting for me on the other side, instead I am kinda excited about dying, not in an "I wanna kill myself" way but in a way where I want to meet Jesus and the Father and excited to be with them in space not just mind and talk with them the same way
Here is my favorite question I would love for someone like Cliff to attempt to answer…. Should Michael Vick have been convicted and sent to prison? He allowed dogs to have the free will to fight each other. He punished those dogs that failed to do his bidding. If you think this is a criminal act, then should we not condemn this “god”? Answer without using special pleading.
Those who think that God is not all Loving are those who didn't know the Bible. Humans are put and created in Eden where not even wild animals will try to kill you but humans rebelled on God and decided to go to this messy place called earth or world then expect it to be perfect like Eden because of God's Love. We're living not in a perfect world it's natural to experience suffering but God make a solution by bringing believers to a perfect world with Him if we will accept it.
When you have an eternal life in paradise waiting for you, is a few years of suffering really a bad thing? If you truly believe you have nothing to fear
True that's true. Suffering is a state of mind. I've seen people in good places say they are Suffering and people I bad places say they are enjoying. It's all a state of mind that can only be from God.
In the Bible it said the progeny of man chose evil when they ate the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Doesn't it say we were in a perfect eternal state walking with the creator of the universe? So God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son. And so God so loved man he gave him free will even as he traverses into darkness. How much love does a parent have to have to let their child Go? And the prodigal son is such a sweet and triumphant return when our Father in heaven embraces us with his all encompassing love. Lord Jesus give us the wisdom and the love that makes the endurance of all things possible.
Just because suffering happens doesn't mean it's from him, hence why it's said "God allowed." Jesus has told us there were other spirits in the spiritual realm, anything outside of God is unGodly. People are really quick to point the finger at God because they only hear "take your problems to God" and think that it's all his fault. The Devil can give us the things that we may ask for, but a lot of the time it did not come from God, because if God believes it isn't genuinely good for you? He won't let you have it. Period. Because he loves us long term & remember that when you pray, the Devil can hear your prayers too.
Man just believe whatever u want who cares only u should. God or no god we just living in a rock. If you believe god helps u then cool. If u dont need to believe in god then good for you
an all powerful entity that transcends the universe would also transcend human reasoning. If this entity explained why it allows suffering humans wouldn't be capable of understanding it. It would be like a human trying to explain a concept to an animal
I know this is pretty off of topic, but your comment reminds me of what my grandfathers thought of God. He didn't truly believe in God because so many bad things happen in the world some more personal, but if God is truly loving and all powerful like the scripture says, then why doesn't he help the people that need him? He is all powerful, but not all good, which is sad in a way. Cause that's what everyone or at least what most people say. I hope you have a good year.😊
You know what's scary about God if we technically know there is a God then we shouldn't have free will because he knows everything about us even before we do it therefore we don't have free will so the whole Free Will argument doesn't make sense despite all that I still believe in a god
Scenario - You record a football game to watch later. You know who the winner is and know about the great plays that happened. When you watch the game, did the players have free will to call the plays and run the routes when they played? They sure did. Just because God knows the decisions we will make, doesn't change the point that we can choose to make that decision.
God allows pain and suffering because all roses and sunshine will not give you fulfillment, it's boring. Also keep in mind there's an afterlife where all limitations doesn't exist.
My mom’s final years were battling cancer, losing her brothers, battling sickness from cancer treatments. On one of our last phone calls I cannot count how many times she said, “God is so good Logan. He’s been good to me. He’s given me a good life.”
She passed away 5 days ago. She was an incredible woman.
God bless you and your mom Logan! 💙
Praying for you Logan!
My thoughts are with you, i don't believe there's a God, myself, and i think your situation is the ideal go - to counter argument for when Christians say God is all good and loving, because he created everything including cancer I presume, which suggests he wanted people to suffer. This os one of the true harms of religions.
@@Christian_CliqueWell if you “pray”, I’m sure that’ll make a difference.
@@nickydaviesnsdpharms3084 I don't want to coopt this comment about personal tragedy to turn it into a long debate, but I do think it is worth bringing up some brief counter points to what you have said. While suffering is sometimes part of God's plan, it is NEVER the end goal - God did not create cancer just so that people will suffer. The proof for this is in the Crucifixion, yes, Jesus had to suffer immensely in order to reconcile us with God, but the Resurrection shows that it was all in service to a higher purpose. We may not be able to fully see that purpose, limited as we are by time and Earthly eyes, but that does not mean it will not be revealed in the fullness of creation. Humans have a dualistic nature, we are both made in the image of God but also inherently fallen and sinful, and suffering often comes from the process of trying to overcome that fallen nature. While our own suffering will always fall short of what is required for atonement, Jesus' perfect sacrifice has given us an opportunity to be truly reconciled with God.
And, importantly, I think there is comfort to be found in remembering that no matter how much we suffer, how much we struggle, our Creator God has gone through it too.
“In this world, bones will still break, hearts will still break, but in the end the light will overcome darkness”
Mathematically and scientifically, it cannot.
@@DeesDNPwhy are you adding math and science while utilizing human logic and natural evidence to prove the supernatural 😂😂
@icastanos I need you to rephrase, I am not familiar was the "asshole" dialect.
@@DeesDNP if by “asshole” you mean vommon knowledge then I’ll accept. Your previous statement makes unobserved assumptions about how divinity works and invalid points. All you did was state your claims but never backed them up. Cope harder 😿😿😿
Amen ✝️
My favorite quote is. "If I had the power of God Id do a lot of interference. If I had thw wisdom of God id do no interference
Great quote here's another from Yahweh. "What separates a good ruler from a Dictator? One who gives free will."
as a human my supposedly limited human wisdom dictate me than if i had the power to be outside of creation and know all detail of life and all outcomes, i wouldn’t create it, because it makes me the ultimate root of all evil, all unjustice not just the root of justice and good. But that’s not the christian ideology, god is all just, good, morale, loving and that’s why he create us. what you’re implying there it being not wise in my human logic, don’t mean it’s not wise for god. so your god divine nature makes a humanly logically bad action, possibly all good and all just because it’s made by god. So im sorry i don’t see wisdom here
@@majiccouly Then you suggest there is NO GOOD in the world. Even with evil, is there not value in people working through their struggles, helping each other and creating a society able to thrive in the face of adversity? It makes sense for God to create things, because there is value in human life and human goodness and compassion
@@CubanGK Ok explain to me where did I say that there is no good ? Unless you’re coming at me with the idea that only god create good ? Now let me ask you, why didn’t you say the same for evil? Are you implying god didn’t create evil? Is evil uncreated too? Did evil already exist and just try to invade humanity’s will after god created us ? Listen if you want to talk about god as there is a possible creator, fine. But if we go in detail, and you tell me that you’re talking about any abrahamic faiths god, define by what’s in their scripture associated with human logic (their scholars), even sola scriptura Christian’s still apply their own logic to understand the text, then I’m sorry no. I already said in my last comment why such a god can’t be the definition of justice morality and goodness. You can’t have him give us a thou shall not murder commandement and then order us to kill the wife, kids, infants(under 2 yo kids), donkeys, camels and tell us they deserve it cause of their evil parents or ancestors. There is no situation making killing infant all just, all good and moral.
Also saying what you said would imply non god believers would all be evil doers, I’m sorry but history and today reality shows this isn’t true at all.
@@CubanGK Ok explain to me where did I say that there is no good ? Unless you’re coming at me with the idea that only god create good ? Now let me ask you, why didn’t you say the same for evil? Are you implying god didn’t create evil? Is evil uncreated too? Did evil already exist and just try to invade humanity’s will after god created us ? Listen if you want to talk about god as there is a possible creator, fine. But if we go in detail, and you tell me that you’re talking about any abrahamic faiths god, define by what’s in their scripture associated with human logic (their scholars), even sola scriptura Christian’s still apply their own logic to understand the text, then I’m sorry no. I already said in my last comment why such a god can’t be the definition of justice morality and goodness. You can’t have him give us a thou should not murder commandement and then tell us to kill the wife, kids, infants(under 2 yo kids), donkeys, camels and tell us they deserve it cause of their evil parents or ancestors. There is no situation making killing infant all just, all good and moral.
"When God steps back, chaos fills the gap." WOW. I felt that one.
Doesn't that mean he's not all good. Why would he step back and let little kids die ect.
Bad things happening would matter if this was the only life we live. But according to Jesus, there is life after death and in this next life, there is no more suffering. When you take that into consideration, that’s ultimately where the word “hope” comes from.
Sorry dear but how does this alleged and unproven "afterlife" in any way whatsoever negate and justify the unnecessary suffering of innocent babies and children in this life ??
@@trumpbellend6717that “unnecessary” suffering, sometimes is necessary for people to grow and to learn valuable lessons
Ride a bike without a helmet after a parent tells you not to. You could be ok or you could hurt yourself. It’s your free will. That pain from the injury will hurt parent despite them not doing it. Let that parent pass. Will it not affect the family who didn’t deserve that? This is why we suffer. Adam had authority over Gods creation. Because Adam fell the the consequences passed on to all creation. That’s what people, animals, nature, even bad weather are allowed to happen. That authority was given to others. And no one has to believe this but do your research on the topic so you will have the answer even if you don’t like it.
@@吳承翰-c9b
How does it help the help the babies and children who suffer & die to "grow and learn" ? What "lessons" did these babies learn?
@@dwoncrawford5823
Who alledgedly was it got to choose Adams punishment? YOUR GOD of course. Could he have decided not to punish his descendants ? Of course. The definition of "justice" is receiving the punishment or reward one deserves. However no one "deserves" punishment for the actions of another, certainly not an innocent baby 🤮
As a doctor often on the verge of death, the experience is hell ever since dengue &Covid clothed me. But, Jesus is the same when I awake.
amen
i dont understand how suffering even plays a role when god repeatedly said this life is temporary. so is the pain. like why is this even debated about?
because they are atheist, they are not different from believers of any other religion such as Buddhism, they are just Buddhists without karma, because they do not have any proof of any god and inmediatly decide to believe in the inexistence of God, they haven't even explored the entire universe or other plains and the entirety of other plains in order to find god, so at the end they are equally or more irrational than those whom get accused of irrational, Christianity is at least rational as we have historical records wrote by historians whom affirm that it is pretty probable that Jesus might have commited the miracles that are said on the bible (and it is more than proven that he indeed existed)
Your unintelligent comment doesn’t say anything else than what you stated yourself : You don`t understand this. A wise man once said: You should keep an arm length distance from people who always seem to have very simple, banale answers to very complex questions. Here is the problem though…Imagen this scenario : In a dark street in a town, there stands two adults and a child. The adults are in their fifties and muscular. The little boy is tiny and only 8 years old, and he is screaming his lungs out for mommy, and have no idea what`s going to happen. But here is a 4th person sitting in a shadow area on a bench watching the entire thing, lets just call him Bob. Bob is not like the other three persons. Bob is almighty, omnipotent and all knowing. Bob already knows what’s going to happen, not only that, but he has foreseen this since all eternity. During the next 30minutes all hell breaks loose for the little boy as the to adults takes his clothes off him and rape him. When they are finished, one of the men takes a big knife and stabs the little boy to death. They dump the body into the nearby river to get rid of any evidence. The body was never found, and left is a family in utter despair, broken to pieces in sorrow……… This story is perhaps fictional, but it could very well be real as this has actually happened thousands of times just in our lifetime. The problem though is: Who is the evil one in this story? Is it the two rapist or is it Bob? Bob who really COULD do something about the situation, but didn`t? Why didn’t Bob intervene? There is four explanations: 1. Bob is NOT almighty and therefore cannot do anything. 2. Bob is almighty, but does not want to act (which is even worse) 3. God is not in charge, the devil are (which contradicts what Jesus said when he said «…All power in heaven and on earth is given to me») 4. God had a better future for the boy, in heaven, which also contradicts the scripture, as they way to the father is through belief in Christ, not through rape and murder. Therefore, I find it utterly stupid when preachers say something like this: Your not alone in your situation. God see your tears and your fears, he see your struggle and he see your pain. But how much comfort is it really in this statement? Let me ask one question: If that statement is true, then what is really the difference between the almighty God and my own shadow? Both of them follows me wherever I go, but none of them do anything about the anything. When a person is laying on the hospital-bed with their body full of cancer, does he then need a God who feals, or a God who heals??
Because these people are satanists trying to antagonise people they haven't even read any pages of the bible, they read supermna comics and get it confused with god, they think gods name is clak kent
The video brings the argument forth in terms of questioning the all loving aspect of god. Can it be true that god is all loving if he allows incredible acts of suffering to befall innocent people?
That's how intelligent a person becomes dumb.
Their wisdom is also their foolishness..
Put these 2 in a room together. They both seem to be capable of having a civil conversation.
The best answer to this I've found is Consequences. The world was perfect and had no suffering until we chose to go against God. We brought suffering on ourselves and now we blame him for our actions.
So the 6,000,000 Jews who dedicated their lives to god were murdered and tortured in the most inhumane, horrible and grotesque ways because some woman 10,000 years ago ate an apple? Y’all are fucking unhinged lmao
If god answered prayers, cared for and loved his worshipers and was merciful, the Jewish diaspora and Holocaust would have never happened. The Jews are gods chosen people, they fullfill the Jewish law which Jesus told us to follow. The Jews come from the land of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew. Why would god allow such atrocities to happen to his chosen people who worship him to the fullest but answer Becky’s prayers who cheats on her husband and goes to church once a week?
True, however it is still God that allows it to happen. We made the choice but responsibility is Gods. And he claims such responsibility.
I think a slightly better way of looking at it is Justice. God is all-powerful, all-loving, and just. So he allows evil and suffering as it is just for us to receive such as a consequence of our actions. And he uses evil and suffering to push us closer to him after we chose to make a divide, and furthermore to show us his mercy with the contrast of what we deserve (and a taste of such ultimate punishment) to his forgiveness and way out.
This is literally exactly the same as "I beat you because i love you" Sounds like youre in an abusive relationship with god. If you personify god hes an absent abusive father.
@@kaydnburns5935 That's not true. You don't learn if you don't make mistakes and experience the consequences. To view him as an absent, abusive father figure is purely an uniformed and or an inexperienced view on everything God stands for. If you have consequences befall you from an action or actions, that's God letting you allowing them to happen so you can learn. He doesn't WANT you to suffer, but he can't make us do things. We choose to do whatever it is we wish to do, and if there's consequences, then he lets us suffer through them. There's a reason for everything that happens, and we won't always understand why.
Aye the format looking good 😉
@@Bible_Alive The Goat 😭💙
@@Christian_Clique God created all this suffering, not adam and eve.
@@thispersonrighthere9024 So when your dad beats you, it's God's fault?
Romans 8; 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us.
Well I "reckon" any god that creates the suffering of innocent babies and children is an immoral monster
@@trumpbellend6717So basically every god would be a monster because kids have birth defects? That's Shallow minded. Alot of these kids don't even blame god. It's mostly people like yourself
Or the eternal damnation
So I live a good honest life but because I don't believe I get to go with hitler in hell wow that's fair ig
@@Everyone-calm-downThat is for those who don't want to be with god
I don’t know but I rely on the scriptures of God working all things out for good (which includes bad stuff) and we rejoice in our suffering because it produces endurance and character. Jesus himself suffered horribly. God didn’t promise this life would be nice and easy
Suffering somehow makes life realistic 🤔
@@Some_odd_guyyes, but also remember, the ones who came before you, the ones who endured you suffer less, suffered far worse.
@@Birdie_4733that doesn’t make it right
@@AsiaScottt no it doesn’t but dont deny that you have it pretty good compared to people before and people now.
@@Birdie_4733 what are you basing this on? We may have it “pretty good” when it comes to material stuff, but I doubt god and his followers care about that. Suffering is still suffering.
1John 5 :19 ''We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.'' there it is, god is not responsible for suffering, because it is the devil who rules the world
Yes, suffering was caused by the devil and his legion of Doom. They started sin and suffering, causing death. I don't think Elohim necessarily wanted his creation to get corrupted with ugliness and pain, deformities, cancers, lying and murder, God cannot be tempted by sin nor does he tempt anyone, but each of us is lead astray by our own lust and desires.
Noice !
@@anonymous_man7you two sound bonkers 🤣
@@ayobruce8211 That must be god's will then. Don't you see how foolish and contradictory that story is?
@leebode4643 have you read the bible ? When the devil challenge god he didn't challenge the power of god, he said that god have no right to decide what is good and bad, he challenge the right of god to rule him, the Angels and humanity ( rebelion of Adam) ... God then say '' go and try it ''
we need these two to have a debate, that would be the match up of the century
I believe faith can answer questions that logic cannot
Faith answers nothing.
Faith is neither a virtue nor a reliable pathway to truth.
I have faith that your faith is less than my faith, therefore i'm right, so god doesn't exist. I also have faith that you'll agree with me, therefore you can't disagree with me since i have more faith than you.
Exactly, cuz you can just make shit up.
Damn all yall missing the point. Lemme reiterate. An honest RELATIONSHIP with Christ will reveal the answers to the questions you have that haven’t been satisfied. You don’t understand that a real tangible relationship with GOD is POSSIBLE. You will never understand until you submit your life and your pride to God and make Christ your God. Right now, you’ve made yourself your god. Fulfilling your own will. So you will ALWAYS live as a skeptic because you fail to lay down your pride.
@ deep down inside you’re afraid of the truth. Your human spirit living in darkness fears the truth. It fears to be brought into the light. That’s why you have this mindset. Open your mind. Open your heart. Dont trust me bro. I’m a human. Trust God. Just do it. Why are you such a coward. Jump off the deep end. Give your life to God. Find out for yourself. When you’re at rock bottom, you will know God’s love
There are several possible answers to why evil coexists with God. Cliff has it right that ultimately we don't know. However, through human reason we have come up with theories. My favorite; and the one that I think Dr.Tyson would most appreciate is the argument that evil doesn't exist at all it is only an absence of goodness that we observe. Think of good and evil like light or dark. If you took a person and raised them so far into space that no light from a star would ever reach them then they may believe that darkness was all that is. However, then when you show them the sun they would be able to reason that darkness is not real. It is only an absence of light. Similarly evil doesn't exist except as an absence of good.
Nonsense teleological evil is something that if an all powerful all loving God exists was "created" with foreknowledge and intent. Viruses, cancer, diseases, earthquake tsunamis ect that cause untold suffering and death to innocent babies and children. These are things that your God alledgedly "Chose" to create. An all powerful all loving God could and indeed would have created a would absent such things
@@trumpbellend6717Your definition of "all loving" does not necessarily match God's.
Too bad the most religious places are usually the worst ones to be around lol
@@trumpbellend6717 ok atheist
You can replace the word “evil” with “the absence of good” but why would an all good, all powerful god create a world with so much “absence of good”? In other words, why isn’t there more good in the world when there so clearly could be?
This type of questions are a joke.
Anybody with three working brain cells can answer them but people do not want to responsibility.
Responsibility because people make other people suffer not God.
But hey let's blame somebody else for not playing referee.
And if somebody else does play referee because we are not as smart enough then we will start screaming "no free will".
Exactly what I was going to say
There's loads of suffering not because of human intervention.
And does the latter mean we won't have free will in Heaven?
so what about kid with cancer , natural disaster ect?
@@ktalist7793mate these lot have lost it, I just read the comments for entertainment 🤣
@@TeoMininum You didn't address the natural disasters which would include all sorts of infant deaths that aren't influenced by our choices. Just pointing that out because it adds to the case of innocent's suffering which an all good entity would help. This takes nothing away from free will. That is a foolish argument.
This is like watching my two favorite people get into a fight. 😢
Yes it’s so sad that Neil has such an obviously biased view
@@JayKeli41 It's not biased, he simply already knows how the world works. The world is bias, therefore so is he.
@SpicyAxe can you reread your own comment please? You said he wasn’t biased and then said that he was lol I’m so confused
Tyson's argument is over 2000 years old. It predates Christianity and has not been answered in a satisfactory way.
Without suffering we get complacent. Without evil there is no good. You can’t have one without the other. God allows us to suffer because 1. we deserve it, and 2. So we remember him and we remember to be grateful for what we have. We deserve to suffer because we are all sinners. We deserve to die for our sins. But because is so Merciful, he allows us to come to Heaven if we repent and believe in him. He tests your faith through suffering. Evil isn’t from God, because God is good. Evil is the absence of God.
@@CuzCan1so god is an all powerful deity that is all good that can end our suffering if he so chooses but chooses not to in order to test our faith to him. Would that mean that biblically, it is a moral good if given the ability to prevent human suffering to allow other humans to suffer? Who are we to prevent suffering when god wants us to and intends for us to?
The Bible actually answers it perfectly clearly.
@@Shamusmusic416he literally just said that he doesn’t know and the Bible doesn’t answer the question
@@ishanebrowni suffering isn’t necessarily only a test for those who are suffering, but also a test for those who see suffering. As Christian’s, If we see suffering we are supposed to prevent it or bring the sufferer to Christ. Also, not all suffering is physical. It could also be spiritual or mental.
The issue with the first subject is half of the evil is not caused by a human
Suffering doesnt disprove God is real
Suffering actually PROVE God is real
No?
@@T1phuoc ok...but it doesn't prove God is righteous by any sense of the word either so there's that
@@saviofialho143 he kicked Adam and Eva out of Eden. They both have to SUFFER , to work in order to survive as i remember
@@trevonw67 God still cared about Adam and Eva, he didnt abandon us, he even listen to us everyday, helping us without being noticed
@@T1phuoc then why did he punish them even though they had no concept of right or wrong? Why did he punish their descendants when it was only Adam and Eve who did "wrong"? Even better why did he place the tree down KNOWING they would eat from it?
Sin and rebellion is what has brought suffering into the world. Plain and simple. This answer is satisfactorily answered right at the beginning the Bible.
God created the world without suffering. We threw it away. He sent His son Jesus to live a perfect life, give His life freely for us, all to restore our relationship with Him. But suffering will not cease until Jesus comes again.
God is God. He does as he wishes.
...and isn't all loving.
@@vladtheemailer3223 He is though. Were experiencing the actions of another person that causes us suffering. God does not interfere with our day to day lives. What happens is what happens because of our faults and mistakes. If God wasnt all loving he would not have made us sentient beings with a free will so that we can disobey him. And for natural disasters, those were made before we were, so we have no right to complain about them.
perhaps we just aren't able to see the spiritual greater good. We look at things through a physical lens. This is a test. If man didn't have free will for good or evil this would not be a test. God doesn't do bad things. He does necessary things. People do bad things. Also are you expecting the hand of God to come out of the sky and stop each person from committing evil? Would you expect the president to come to your house to discipline your kid? No. Bit if everyone's kid started behaving poorly, perhaps he would interject.
Bad things happen , but if you develop a relationship with God and ask for righteous things with complete sincerity and respect, you just might get your proof.
@@Billnyeurmomsagayguy
So according to your rational when babies and children suffer and die because of things like cancer its because of their _"faults and mistakes"_ ( shakes head in disgust ) if you really think this reasonable you should have no place in our moral discourse. 🤮
@@vladtheemailer3223according to YOUR definition.
For a second I thought it was a debate between the two lol. I need to see that happen
God doesn't want suffering in our world. Death and suffering entered our world through sin. As long as sin persists we will suffer. God doesn't want us to suffer at all. In fact, God tells us the solution. That solution is Jesus Christ. He takes away our sin and he will eventually return and sin will be abolished. Suffering is a consequence of an action. It doesn't even have to be my own actions that cause my suffering.
Why would an omnipotent being such as god allow something that he doesn’t want in the world? Would he not be able to create it in a way where he is happy with it? It logically doesn’t make sense that an all powerful all knowing being would have something in the world that he doesn’t want.
@@ishanebrowni It’s a cosmic court case. It’s about the devil and the angels as much as it is about humans. God chose to gave some of his creations free will (angels, humans), that means that they have the ability to go against his way. He is patiently letting things take their course to demonstrate that his way is perfect. Once the question of God’s sovereignty is answered in an absolute sense, it will never have to be answered again. Every living thing will rejoice under his rule.
To illustrate, a math teacher is teaching his class. A student jumps up and yells that the teacher is doing it wrong. The teacher is patient. Instead of snapping at the child or sending them out of the classroom, he hands the chalk to the student. “Go ahead. Show me how you would do it.” As the student struggles to implement his strategy in front of the class, it becomes clear to everyone in the room that the teacher’s method was the correct one, a conclusion that throwing the student out of the class would not have achieved.
@@ishanebrowniand it does make logical sense that an omnipotent being would make something that has the potential to be bad.
He wants his creation to choose him. His standards. To choose you must have a choice. Love without choice is nothing, less than nothing.
Disagree completely.
Suffering is vital for our spiritual growth, after all without suffering what else will we have to overcome?
@@owenlee4585Hey! I am a follower of Christ and I am 12 years old. I understand that God gave us free will, but about those who are born with nature birth defects and grow up with cancer?
Faith and reason walk along the same path do not conflict with each other
If the next life is so great and this life is so tough, why do the faithfulll hang onto this life as tenaciously as any good atheist??
1. They don't.
2. Since the next life is eternal--there is no point in rushing to get to it. It's not like you're lessening something.
3. Once a person leaves this world, they have no ability to preach the gospel to unbelieving loved ones anymore.
@@BroadMeadow-d9s Most of them do not preach the gospel, but they sin like any other human! Explain, they don't
If this life is so insufferable and bad, why do Atheist's cling on to it as something good? If it were true that God created this earth and this life and that Atheists cling to it, wouldn't that mean that His creation was good?
To answer your question, from the "faithful" perspective.The next life will be great because we will have conquered the human experience willfully and gracefully. Jesus has shown the example of how we "should" live a perfect life. He conquered fear, sin and death. We strive to be like Him, and call upon Him for strength in tough times. This life is a gift from God, and even Atheist's view it as good, even if they don't believe in God. So why should the faithful treat a gift from God as something we should quickly rid ourselves of? This life is given to us for a reason. There are many lessons to be learned, the greatest lesson of all being that we need to love and serve one another under any circumstances, as Jesus did for us.
@ You haven’t proven a god nor a “next life”. And not everyone grows from suffering.
Many people and worn out and die as a result.
@@BroadMeadow-d9s Incorrect. People have committed suicide in a way that they wouldn't think is suicide because they believed it would get them to heaven sooner. I would suggest being careful when you choose to speak for all humans in the entire world for all history.
For anyone who doesn't believe God exists or that Jesus died for our sins and saved us, I'll pray for you brothers and sisters
First and foremost, I have to remind the readers of this message of the story of Job, a great man loved by everyone in his community, multiple sons and daughters, wise like few others, possessor of great fortunes and power in general.
All this was due to the fact that he was a great fearer of Jehovah, to the point of sacrificing for his children just in case they had sinned.
And all his possessions, children and even his own health were completely taken away, stolen, destroyed or killed, and all because of a simple question that Satan asked the Lord, a very valid question.
Is Job a worshiper of the Lord because he genuinely loves Him? Or does he love the Lord because it suits Job?
The story is long, full of suffering, where even his wife and "friends" accuse him.
But all this suffering brings what is possibly one of the best verses in the Bible.
Job 19:25-27
"I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at last he will rise above the dust;
And after my skin is undone,
In my flesh I must see God;
Which I will see for myself,
And my eyes will see it, and no other,
Although my heart fails within me."
A totally broken and destroyed man is the one who has to say this to show us that the suffering of the world is totally indiscriminate for everyone, but it is because of and thanks to the Lord, that this suffering is bearable.
In my humble opinion, God gave us complete and 100% freedom so collectively we could stop all of this suffering but we choose not to, IE governments! We could literally stopped or suffering the same way we could keep our children from burning their hands on a stove, it's just collectively we have to stop the starvation and the war. We let ourselves suffer. It's not God's fault
How could we collectively stop earthquakes from happening, for example?
@@haitaelpastor976by coming together to figure out how to limit them. If we could redirect a meteor we can stop the ground from shaking. It will take time but so does everything.
Literally every point and question is answered in the Bible. Maybe not the answer you’re looking for, but it answers it. Read it. If you’re satisfied with believing that it doesn’t answer every question, then I can’t help you. If you can’t find the answer, you missed it. If you don’t believe me, again, I can’t help you.
Also it’s hypocritical to be satisfied with the Big Bang theory and then bring your rational questions to the Bible.
“Research it yourself” is not a good counter argument
@@ishanebrowni It never was an argument.
@@ishanebrowniis not an argument, just read the bible and then give your opinion
No it literally doesn't
@@ishanebrowni well… if you have questions about something, then you… research it…
1 minute argument vs 9 minute argument. I Wonder who had to pull more shit out their ass?😂
Why do you people continue to say what Adam and Eve did was evil? and you said ''they thought they knew better than God''
Both Adam and Eve were created ignorant without any understanding of right or wrong, it wasn't until they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that they gained this knowledge, so that makes them necessarily not culpable, and this in turn makes God grossly immoral as he knows everything but still punished them.
No they did know right from wrong it’s why they resisted at first?
They were told not to eat the fruit.
They were told not to eat the fruit. They did. They disobeyed God. Yes, they are fully culpable for that decision.
They’re were told not to do what they did disobedience is a sin whether you like it or not
Just a verse that i wanted to share because the holy spirit told me that somebody here needs it :)
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6
Always nice to see that one. I consider it my life verse.
Faith and reason coexist. He says what he says because he hasn’t read the Bible and given its truth any deep thought.
No, faith is the opposite of reason. Faith is not a virtue nor a reliable pathway to truth.
How many scientists are in Christian faith? Catholic Church is patron of science who accept theory of Evolution. Theory of Evolution is God’s ultimate creation. Most of the scientific findings were founded by Catholics and certain philosophy writings were written by Catholics. I respect all scientists regardless of religion or not. Faith and reason can coexist, not to debate. God allows us to explore science. But blaming God for suffering in the world is childish and belief in authoritarianism. If God prevents it, then we humanity never grow and learn. God is like a parent while humanity are children. If God is not good, then we humans image of God are not good. Isn’t that oxymoron?
You can't be thankful in life for all the good stuff we have, if there is nothing worse than good, you have to have bad and negativity in life to be thankful.
1:11 this guy, right at the first argument, he let aside the concept of sin and it's consequences... Convenient. It's like, lets give an argument to disprove something but let aside the actual concept that explains why there is suffering and how that has everything to do with us - SINNERS - and not God. This guy is bought by media. So smart but lets aside critical info just for convenience.... Yeah. The dirt he throws will not get into my eyes.
Your point makes no sense. A child with a birth defect cannot be classified as a sinner. They haven’t ever done anything.
God allows freedom because he loves. Like a parent, he gave us the Dos and Donts, what we do is up to us.
Heres what 🎉 say, stop wasting time wondering why bad things happen. We have all asked that before. If God didnt give us free will , people would still criticize him for oppressing us. Bad things happen on earth in the absence of God. Its like asking why is their dark in the absence of light?
Instead maybe ask God to show you a sign. Develop a relationship with him then you might see for yourself he is all powerful , and Good. Sometimes bad things need to happen for the greater good. Also, perhaps we are looking at death wrong. Perhaps pulling us out of this world to be with him is a blessing we are unable to see.
Two things, firstly what has "freewill" got to do with the suffering of innocent babies and children because of things like viruses, cancer, diseases, earthquakes, tsunamis ect ?? Why would an all powerful all loving God create such things ? 🤮
Secondly, presumably you agree that "freewill" if it exists by definition cannot be the thing that determines the choices we make. If you an I both have "freewill" and are presented with options *"A"* or *"B"* we can make different choices, so clearly "freewill" was not the determining factor that resulted in said "choice"
So the question then arises, what was the determing factor ?? Are there no determining factors influencing "choice" ? is it simply random outcomes, a matter of luck or a "coin toss" 🤔 if so then how could God possibly hold us responsible ??
If there are indeed factors that influence the outcome of our "choices" then what are they ?? Is it down to our "nature" desires, greed genetics, along with other internal and external influence from our environment?? Which of these factors involved in Adams "choice" was God *NOT* responsible for ?? His genetics his nature, his knowledge and understanding, every single atom of every single internal and external influence from his environment was aledgedly created by God with foreknowledge was it not ??
If you think I'm wrong then NAME the factors God did *NOT* create with foreknowledge ?? 🙄🤔 If you are unable to do this then tell me why Adam was responsible for his "choice" not God??
_"K all the males from amongst the little ones and K every woman who has known a man intimately. But keep alive for yourselves all the young maiden girls"_
Only the indoctrinated would ever describe the above biblical instructions as "Good"
@@trumpbellend6717What is considered all loving to you does not have to be the same as all loving to God.
@@trumpbellend6717"Presumably you agree"
And if I do not?
We are the sum of our experiences good and bad, and God instructs us to share the Gospel. Perhaps, as hard as it may be, we need to witness to those who have been through similar circumstances.
For example, if you’re a parent who lost a kid, but are a believer in Christ, perhaps your role in life is to share why you still love God with somebody else in similar circumstances who doesn’t know God.
I’m glad he said that he doesn’t know why, but I don’t like how he ended up just straw manning into free will to present this whole speech. The question was why does natural suffering occur ie natural disasters, not human to human suffering like punching
It applies to both situations
you did not understand, God was with Adam and Eve before but because of disobedience, God step back because humans THINK they are better without him, just like many teenagers nowadays, they dont care about their parent's advice.
yet God so love us that he sent his only begotten son for us, you and me, to forgive the sins of our ancestors and our sins as long as we trust on him.
God is letting us to govern ourselves because he wants us to realize that at the end of the Day we need him to unify the world because right now it doesn't matter who sits on any government, all falls apart, war rages everywhere and everytime.
Suffering is a result of sin. When the lamb is torn apart by wolves only ones suffering is ended, while the others torment must continue. If life was fair we’d all endure the crucifixion.
@@ggmode9819 2:07 I mean, cliffe says straight up that he doesn’t know and that the Bible doesn’t answer the question of why suffering occurs from natural causes. Either way if that is the answer you want to give, i believe god is acting immorally. I mean, let’s say that a natural disaster occurs and I have the full capability to help someone who’s life is in peril, why should I not follow in gods footsteps and allow them to suffer just as he does? He caused the natural disaster, so why should I interfere while god is willfully absent, sent the disaster, and witnesses the person suffer same as me? Why is it immoral if I do it, but moral if he does it? We can also use the same teenager idea you brought up. Since god stepped back because humans thought they were better without them, would it be moral for me to kick my son out of the house after he disobeyed me? After all, if god can do it, why can’t I? He’s the pinnacle of all good, so anything he does IS all good. Meaning kicking my son out of the house, or letting someone suffer is a good thing since all god does is good. If you don’t consider those good acts, that means god is not all good🤷♂️
@@ggmode9819 God already knew ahead of time, that Eve would fall for the serpents lies, and gone ahead and eat from the tree of life, when she was specifically instructed not to, but as Cliff said and also stated in the bible, god chose to limit his power, by giving humans the ability to choose for themselves. But apparently, every action has consequences, and God had to teach that to Eve and Adam, thus the beginning of Sin into the world, wasn't by God, but by mankind, and God would step back and let mankind choose for themselves, rather a test to see who would, acknowledge him as the creator. And keep his ways.
God wants us to learn and grow. Thats why we are alive the people who have suffered the most usually are the most kind loving people you will meet. How are we supposted to enjoy heaven not knowing what hell is like? Everyone has to go throught their own hell for this reason. Life is hard it sucks but its rewarding. You dont give your kids everything because you want them to learn and appreciate what youve done and learned i think god behaves the same way. God does love you regardless of who you are or what you have done but he also wants us to choose the good. How can we choose good if we dont know evil? I hope anyone reading this knows god loves them and may you find peace in this life and the life to come.
I already said this in one comment. I agree that there can't be good without evil. But that is a philosophical point of view. This does not prove god in any way.
Cliffe again with his mental gymnastics.
How?
@ianpage2509 He is trying do justify something that there's no explanation about it. So he just assume things. All of what he said is just theories.
@Мирич-з4е Here we go again
@Мирич-з4еYou wouldn't comprehend it. Because you are certain science has the answer to everything ...so any other thing about the universe ...is just not it
@@clintonbobby8539 Here we go again. Assumptions are not proof of anything. Nowhere in the Bible is said why these things happen. God never told Job why all the bad things happen to him. He didn't knew that he was tested.
1 Peter 4. We were born to suffer in the joy of the Lord.
he explained diseases and natural disasters with free will? what a bunch of unintelligent people
Who?
@@ianpage2509 Clive. Litellary Neil: "Disasters, Catastrophies, diseases" and I don't know what else. Clive: decides to only talk about desiese because only that thing fits his "suffering exists because people are sinners" narative.
@ZívacíBublina when God created the world he said it was good. After Adam and eve sinned was when the bad thingʻs happened. So it's logical to think that natural disasters and diseases happened after God punished Adam and eve.
@lexudary. Play with your toys you will grow someday
@@prezonautic what a passive agressive response. How are you going to ever grow if you are closed minded?
What does love mean if you can't not love. And what need is there for love if life has no challenges? God created us to love, and out of love set us free, those who come back to God in love are meant to be, those who don't aren't.
Tyson talkes like a spoiled 6 year old
Don’t judge man
@felipeolmos582 thats a scientific analysis of how he talks. Not judging
This life is just temporary
The free will argument doesn't make sense, so we have sin because of free will. So when you go to heaven there is no sin, so in heaven there is no free will, everyone is just ordered around by God, doesn't sound very heavenly to me.
Extremely great point! Can't wait to see what kind of excuses can be made about it! Lol
What is your idea of heaven then? I would like to know.😊
We have free will to not only sin,but to do good things.If we all were forced to worship god and not have free will then only good things would happen in this world which is good.But that doesn't mean satan wouldn't interfere because he tested Jesus himself.Jesus knew how to not be tempted.But if we are forced to be good and if we can't think about bad things then we would be easily tempted.The things we can learn from bad things happening around us is many.We can pray for others,we can learn from bad things on how to prevent it,we can learn on how to not be tempted again.😊
@@dafvlogs3252 That is an odd question to ask someone who clearly does not believe in heaven.
@@dafvlogs3252 heaven and hell is a state of mind. There's my idea...makes more sense to me imo besides ....you failed to answer dispute anything the OP just said sooooo care to explain that?
This life has always been temporary the ailments and afflictions that we are imposed on are merely tests to the freedom that God gives us. If we show Goodwill, even in sickness, it shows the Lord how righteous we are trying to be and how pure our hearts are in his name. If in the midst of affliction and sickness, we project heartache and pain, it shows that our hearts are not pure. This life is just a test. Some will pass some will fail. At the end of the day, whether you believe or not, you will be judged based on your pass actions according to the path God has given you. That will determine your eternity.
i was there when Cliffe gave that message
It seems pretty much all meaningful intellectual achievement and innovation is derived from necessity - suffering deemed ‘avoidable’, in most cases. Why would the single greatest tool for human growth & ingenuity be removed from the equation? The fact that we have the ability to recognize ‘suffering’ is also compelling…
If we only had happiness what kind of life would it be? A happy life comes if you follow Jesus. We all suffer, but Christians have faith and turn to Jesus in difficult situations to stay strong. This world isn't perfect because we humans rejected God and he, as a benevolent King accepts our chocie and lets us do our thing, including hurting others or letting us be in an imperfect world.
If life was perfect and we never had any problems I think many people would assume they either deserved it by default or at the very least would see no need for God. After all, their life is perfect, what do they need him for?
@@pcdeltalink036Yes. Only if they follow him their life becomes perfect.
Aint even gonna lie after he said "I do not know" it made me laugh LOL 2:20
It does seem like we are all alone. We have dangerous situations in our solar system , when he made our solar system . Was this good ?
I do not follow God, but i am not an atheist as well... i've always thought that God doesn't always help us because he wants us to build our own destiny, and that there are always obstacles and problems in our path that we need to surpass. He lets us feel pain so we can LEARN. NO ONE can learn further without mistakes, injuries and accidents. When your life is done for, he will be there for you. Even though want to follow my own path, i sure trust God with all my heart, mind and soul, even if i want to follow my own footsteps.
So STOP saying that God is not good, he is teaching you indirectly. ALL of these months of pain are there to teach you something valuable that you probably won't acknowledge instantly.
Right likes he teaches starving children in africa, many slowly dying of disease and lack of nourishment, what fucking lesson is that bringing, what can you really learn from that at such a young age, there is no growth in that kind of life because it is cut short by something of the natural world created by either a not all powerful god, a shit asshole god or just the big bang and the evolution of our universe.
What about when he drowned the earth? What did that teach? Is that good?
@@sabaibaikari7023Depends on how you look at it. You'll never be satisfied with the answer if you look at it through your eyes. Look at the reasons behind why He did it and then forge your arguments. And if you know the answer then why ask?
@ wasn’t it because humanity was violent or something, if so then why kill and destroy most of the animals,plants and he would’ve always known that.
@@sabaibaikari7023 Human thoughts turned completely evil thus basically corrupting them. Humans are part of the creation, animals are part of the creation, and so on and so forth. Thus human sin corrupted all creation. God simply wiped out all the corruption and preserved pairs of each animal on Noah's ark.
God sometimes let's you suffer to get rid of distraction or test your faith
Trust in him, and he shall bring you salvation
Here’s the issue: God KNEW humanity would rebel against him. He knew “if I put the tree of knowledge here at A, they will eat the fruit and rebel, if I put the tree of knowledge here at B, they will choose not to sin.” He knew and he, in his power, chose not to put the tree at B. He didn’t just ALLOW sin, he CHOSE it, knowing that this act would damn humanity to an eternal damnation. “But he gave his son to tell us a way out” you would not give credit to a man who saved someone from a house fire if he started the house fire just so he could save someone. God did not limit himself. HE tempted Adam and Eve, he ALLOWED suffering. That is why I cannot believe in an all powerful, and all loving God.
But since that was before satan tempted eve to eat the fruit, I believe that sin was not a factor yet. Nowhere in the scriptures did it imply that eve was tempted to eat the fruit by herself. Sin was pretty much introduced by satan.
4:47 EXACTLY what i think when i commit sin which is NOT good, i understand that god knows whats best for me but i jus keep doing sin over and over and over. i try to repent and all it does is delay the sins. i want to be righteous and loyal to god. but everytime i sin and i repent it feels like im using him.
If you want to know true suffering, try listening to Neil deGrasse Tyson for a few minutes.
Tyson’s argument was more so on natural causes not on evil caused by human decisions. The pastor never addresses Tyson’s argument.
If anyone has an input I’d like to hear it
God does not love or hate equally
Jesus said, "Do not fear for I have overcome the
God allowed evil so that a lesser being (us) that through Jesus, we can overcome such a world.
The heavenly realm can now see that any rebellion is futile. Heaven is permanent. Our life on earth is a "vapor."
God didn't allow suffering, he limited his power so his creation could love him by choice. Then we rebeled and allowed evil into our world so, because of sin, there are natural disasters, natural deformaties, etc.
He still allows it. Look at Paul and how 3 times he asked God to remove the thorn from his flesh. God refused, saying it was better for Paul to depend on him. I think the same thing could apply to many people today.
God created evil and allows suffering.
”Which one? Zeus? Ra? or Ganesh?” - Ricky Gervais
Comparing meager pagan idolatry ideas of "gods" to a singular all-powerful all-knowing being is silly, weak argument
Read Philosophical Foundation by Surrendra Gangadean. The answer is that Suffering serves not as punishment but as a call back from moral evil, natural evil restrains, calls back, and removes moral evil/sin from the believer who was called back. Its a simple solution
Yeah if god is all powerful and all knowing he knew the nature of humans depending on the way they were created before he first made adam and eve, it's like torturing a robot that has feelings because it did something you knew would happen if you programmed it in such a way. Yeah thanks god for making us suffer to remove evil you brought upon us by fate upon creation.
@emperorturtlez481 The nature for a created being it what it is designed for. The nature for a human is to do what a human is designed for.
Free will is unrestricted (free) choice (will). The level you have free will at is the rational/thought level of your spirit, (your spirit. is comprised of thought, feeling, will).
God creates because He is the Creator, or simply because he is. He is expressing his nature. Creation is revelation: necessarily, intentionally, and exclusively. God creates to reveal himself to all rational beings.
Why did God permit the fall? (that was able to happen by free will). When Humans spiritually died, it shows the justice of God, for in the day that Adam failed to use reason to understand the basic things that are clear, he would suffer the consequence of not understanding. This is justice, there is always justice at the rational level.
through the fall, God shows how He can be just and merciful to all rational beings objectively. How is He Merciful? Natural evil is imposed and serves as a call back from moral evil. Through these natural evil calls back people from not understanding the basic things that are clear.
If you don't think God can be good and all powerful because of evil, your argument falls apart when we clarify what evil is, and you shouldn't hate mercy (natural evil) that makes no sense.
" 1. Because of all the evil in the world I cannot see how it can be said that God is all good and all powerful.
2. Because of all the misunderstanding in the world I cannot see how it can be said that God is all good and all powerful.
3. Because of all the misunderstanding in me I cannot see how it can be said that God is all good and all powerful.
4. Because I have neglected and avoided the use of reason I cannot see what is clear about God"
@emperorturtlez481 The nature for a created being it what it is designed for. The nature for a human is to do what a human is designed for.
@emperorturtlez481 Free will is unrestricted (free) choice (will). The level you have free will at is the rational/thought level of your spirit, (your spirit. is comprised of thought, feeling, will).
@emperorturtlez481 God creates because He is the Creator, or simply because he is. He is expressing his nature. Creation is revelation: necessarily, intentionally, and exclusively. God creates to reveal himself to all rational beings.
So evil exists in the world. That means God doesn't nor couldn't exist? I'm a fool but these guys? They're special.
Your abrahamic God doesn't exist, indeed. It's illogical at even the most basic level.
@haitaelpastor976 Come on, man, even people in the most remote locations on earth believe in an all-powerful creator. Every culture accounts for spirit and/or soul. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all speak of magick. Even Satanists believe in Jesus Christ, my lord. But you, you're special. You're smarter than billions of people who do believe.
@@Mufffinz First, that is an Ad Populum Fallacy. Just because of billions believe something, does not make it true. All humans believed for millenia that the Earth was flat.
Second, notice I didn't say there can be no Creator... just that YOUR version of the Creator can't be. It's illogical.
@@haitaelpastor976 "it's illogical at even the most basic level" proceeds to not use logic
"God is wither not all powerful or not all good"
Yes,god is not all good,because god is fair. If we do something fairly in this world,we get hate. So it is something like that.
Saying god is not all good goes counter against the Bible though where they mention it numerous times. Plus if that were the case then that means god sins, which means he is no better than us since all sin weighs the same in his eyes
God is all good. Thats why he's the judge
I was here in person and it was super cool!
I must say . . . he is a VERY articulate speaker
The answer is simple. Suffering is the cause of our own sin and the original sin. God gave us free will to choose and do what we so please to do. Due to us sinning we are bound to suffer whether is directly us or generational curses. God ain’t never said there will be no storm
Pain and sufferings one of the oldest methods of discipline but this is not why God allows it God allows it because we feel what he feels it hurts God when we dont choose him and he gave us everything his all. Yes jesus suffered for us and is still suffering for us but the price has been paid for you to live eternally without pain and sufferings woe the glory to be revealed.
You give Tyson a short spot at the beginning then have a banner saying listen to the end. Then you have an extremely long Christian statement with no allowance for Tyson to respond. This is biased and unfair. Shame on you!
This is not a debate. These are two different opinions. Tyson did not have to say a lot because his opinion was simple and short. Not really biased in my opinion. Two different points of view for people to think on.
I thought this was going to be them actually debating lol
He says “why did god ALLOW…” he didn’t allow it, god makes it all happen, if you believe what its powers and knowledge are
This is why I don't fear death, I take comfort ( that Cliffe talked about ) in that Jesus died for me and took the rightful punishment for my sins and that God is waiting for me on the other side, instead I am kinda excited about dying, not in an "I wanna kill myself" way but in a way where I want to meet Jesus and the Father and excited to be with them in space not just mind and talk with them the same way
1:15 NDT literally just quoted Lex Luthor from Batman V Superman to make his point lol
I don't know. Some things can't be explained
Here is my favorite question I would love for someone like Cliff to attempt to answer…. Should Michael Vick have been convicted and sent to prison? He allowed dogs to have the free will to fight each other. He punished those dogs that failed to do his bidding.
If you think this is a criminal act, then should we not condemn this “god”? Answer without using special pleading.
FREE will is not an explanation to this dilema
Heavily quoting the bible to defend God is not the way to go. You are using the claim itself to prove the claim.
Those who think that God is not all Loving are those who didn't know the Bible. Humans are put and created in Eden where not even wild animals will try to kill you but humans rebelled on God and decided to go to this messy place called earth or world then expect it to be perfect like Eden because of God's Love.
We're living not in a perfect world it's natural to experience suffering but God make a solution by bringing believers to a perfect world with Him if we will accept it.
When you have an eternal life in paradise waiting for you, is a few years of suffering really a bad thing? If you truly believe you have nothing to fear
True that's true. Suffering is a state of mind. I've seen people in good places say they are Suffering and people I bad places say they are enjoying. It's all a state of mind that can only be from God.
That isn't "Cliffe Knechtle vs. Neil deGrasse Tyson"
In the Bible it said the progeny of man chose evil when they ate the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Doesn't it say we were in a perfect eternal state walking with the creator of the universe? So God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son. And so God so loved man he gave him free will even as he traverses into darkness. How much love does a parent have to have to let their child Go? And the prodigal son is such a sweet and triumphant return when our Father in heaven embraces us with his all encompassing love. Lord Jesus give us the wisdom and the love that makes the endurance of all things possible.
Good and bad based on what?
Just because suffering happens doesn't mean it's from him, hence why it's said "God allowed." Jesus has told us there were other spirits in the spiritual realm, anything outside of God is unGodly. People are really quick to point the finger at God because they only hear "take your problems to God" and think that it's all his fault. The Devil can give us the things that we may ask for, but a lot of the time it did not come from God, because if God believes it isn't genuinely good for you? He won't let you have it. Period. Because he loves us long term & remember that when you pray, the Devil can hear your prayers too.
Man just believe whatever u want who cares only u should. God or no god we just living in a rock. If you believe god helps u then cool. If u dont need to believe in god then good for you
If suffering doesn't disprove an all loving god then goodness/pleasure doesn't disprove an all evil god
inverting the argument doesn't make a new, valid argument
an all powerful entity that transcends the universe would also transcend human reasoning. If this entity explained why it allows suffering humans wouldn't be capable of understanding it. It would be like a human trying to explain a concept to an animal
My personal belief is He is all-powerful, but not all good.
I know this is pretty off of topic, but your comment reminds me of what my grandfathers thought of God.
He didn't truly believe in God because so many bad things happen in the world some more personal, but if God is truly loving and all powerful like the scripture says, then why doesn't he help the people that need him?
He is all powerful, but not all good, which is sad in a way. Cause that's what everyone or at least what most people say.
I hope you have a good year.😊
eve sinned first she let sin enter the world that’s why there’s suffering and evil easy but people just ignore that
You know what's scary about God if we technically know there is a God then we shouldn't have free will because he knows everything about us even before we do it therefore we don't have free will so the whole Free Will argument doesn't make sense despite all that I still believe in a god
Scenario - You record a football game to watch later. You know who the winner is and know about the great plays that happened.
When you watch the game, did the players have free will to call the plays and run the routes when they played?
They sure did. Just because God knows the decisions we will make, doesn't change the point that we can choose to make that decision.
I think the answer is we sufer because of the sin we are sinfull and sin=sufering but if we folow god we are going to his house ❤
Which god are they referring to is it the legitimate god or the false god that they dislike
Show me one instance where god intervened on suffering that can be demonstrated with high certainty. Just one.
Atheists know deep down in their hearts that God is a true living God
God allows pain and suffering because all roses and sunshine will not give you fulfillment, it's boring. Also keep in mind there's an afterlife where all limitations doesn't exist.
Because we live in a world of trials and expiations.