ABSOLUTE RUBBISH: Vehicle is only 5 years old and had 3 engines ALREADY!
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- Опубліковано 8 гру 2024
- We crack on with the RS Turbo engine and it will be another out the door. In the mean time we have another in the door. This vehicle is only 5 years old and had 3 engines already, what the hell is going on?
My Jag XJ 2.7 is at 195,000 miles and still going strong. They aren't all bad.
A small vice in the build area might be worth considering.
That’d be far too easy!
How will he get his cardio🫀then?
They don't even have a honing machine why would they have a vice
Another shout-out for L R Time. Would love to see you collab or consult with Christian and Vera their knowledge and experience with these engines is unsurpassed. Christian has designed and built numerous specialty tools to work on these engines. They are the true masters of Land Rover rebuilds.
This couple LR TIME @Vera_and_Christian in Germany love their Land/Range Rovers, Christian rebuilds the engines at home, have a look, at their channel.
Great videos, keep it up lads.
Especially their oil recommendation
He does go into things very deeply and explains it so well considering English is not his first language.
Yes Christian does know his v6 land rover engines and goes about his investigations in a very germanic way. Must watch too.
I like LR time they're quite funny also very technical 👌
Vera and Christian are a much watch for anyone into there labdy rebuilds
When I started 😮my apprenticeship at a Caterpillar dealer, plastigage had not really come out. We used lead wire, basically the same but lead instead of plastic. Pull the cap off and carefully pull the lead wire off and measure the squished thickness with a micrometer or vernier caliper.
Using the recommended bolt lube for torquing does not increase the torque but will increase the bolt stretch when the applied torque is reached. The grease or other lube is to reduce the frictional differences between individual bolts and nuts. This is why ARP recommends new bolts be tightened three times and loosened before final torque. This tends to knock down any high spots or roughness in the machining that affects the accuracy.
This was another area Caterpillar identified for critical torquing. They found that small differences at a low torque value increased as the torque increased. That is when they came up with the torque and turn tightening proceedure used on most head bolts these days, torque to a low value where an initial clamp load is established, but there may be a small difference in clamp load from one bolt to the next, say 3 pounds. When you then apply more stretch by turning a specified number of degrees, possibly in two steps, the variance in clamp load is maintained at that 3 pounds rather than possibly 50 pounds. If I remember correctly, David Vizard in one of his Powertec 10 UA-cam videos states the clamp load by each head bolt is in tons.
Caterpillar has since on their large engines gone away from using torque on head bolts. You get the head(s) set in place and the head bolts spun down finger tight. Then a sleeve is put over with a hole in the side, a puller sleeve is threaded onto the top of the stud and a hydraulic cylinder is put down over the puller sleeve and the spacer sleeve. Then a washer and nut are spun down onto the hydraulic cylinder. The pump has a guage that reads in tons force. Each bolt size has a specified number of tons that are to be applied. When that value is reached, the stud is stretched to the correct value. The nut is spun down to finger tight and the hydraulic pressure is released. The process is repeated on the next stud. This they believe provides more even clamp load which is what is required.
Neighbour had a 2.7 Discovery 3,did 400,000km + and was Toyota reliable!!!
(Normally I'm the first person to take the piss out of a Landrover!!!!)😂
What you are describing here that Caterpillar has gone over to, has been used by large, medium and slow speed diesel engine manufacturers for multiple decades. Either turned to a specific degree, or stretched with hydraulic jacking.
@@brianlove8413 the mains and rods are usually toqued the same way in these engines
@@aussiebattler7789 Yes no doubt, I am just saying that this process has been used for a very long time with other engine manufacturers that produce medium speed engines trunk piston, and crosshead engines, well before Caterpillar decided to use it.
@@paulhoogeveen7353 the 2.7 is a PEUGEOT engine
A lot of work for a known design fault issue which cannot have any warranty. The question for Landrover should be why and how can we resolve the issue? Why haven't they done the research to find out why these crankshafts fail? Not a great advertisement for Landrover and let's face it they aren't a cheap vehicle.
but people just buy them anyhow
Not LR design it's a ford design. The crank has been modified over the years.
Back when high lift cams and solid followers were the thing to do to CVH engines you could get a special gimpy spanners set to adjust in situ
Second shout out for LR time, they bought a low mileage LR with the V6 with a premature crank failure and did a full rebuild . Very detailed explanation of the rebuild. Also agree about his oil recommendations. As a retired Aerospace engineer and watching all these engine rebuild videos, I have a hypothesis that the web failures could be due to stress caused by clutch imbalance. You demonstrate regularly that clutches can be very out of balance. I suggest that make the web failure is by high cycle fatigue from clutch imbalance. Hence why some do 300,000 miles without a failure and others do 50,000 and fail.
Those high compression engines are run at low rpm. That’s when lugging occurs. Low oil speed/pressure, thin oils and the crank/crank bearings take a beating. Also an out of round clutch can add stress.
LR German influence a bit like vw ford muck
Another shout out for LR Time defiantly worth watching..
Another vote for checking out LR Time channel for 2.7 & 3.0 rebuilds.🙂
I watch LR Time and love the breakdown and fun in the channel.
@@zzhughesdMy wife says they’re “very German”.
She’s half German, herself.
I like the way Christian berates Vera occasionally. When she’s mutters “Oh my God” once too often, he’ll snap “Thos is NOT an oh my god situation, Vera!”
Hey Lee on those bolt adjust solid lifters why not try and check the lash and figure out how much longer the lifter needs be then pull it and the measure the length with a caliper or micrometer and then adjust to length using the mic/caliper so you get a lot closer to what you need for lash.
Find the pitch of the adjusting thread, measure the gap, wind out the adjuster one turn and re-measure the gap, this will give a near perfect adjustment ratio, that can be applied once you know the gap you have.
Lee can you please do an indepth rebuild video on that Landy 3.0lt TDV6, it would be great to see if it turns out as good as Christian and Vera from LR Time Homemade rebuilds,
You will never be short of work doing those landy v6 engines
When the shop goes quiet why not finish boarding off the back side of the new walls and get them all painted up in satin white, also go through the workshop with a load of degreaser and finish off the refresh and update ?
Only 2 weeks ago I rebuilt a 306DT, also had to replace multiple engines due to the known crank issues. The one I rebuilt recently had spun a big end and the piston was slapping the head! I know you can’t get the big end and main bolts from Landrover, I think we got ours from Apex. Also, Autodata don’t have the torque settings for the Landrover but it’s the same base engine in the Peugeot 407 coupe and all the torque settings are listed for that.
Also, the crank sensor reluctor ring is pressed into the crank and you need an alignment tool to reinstall it.
As a LandRover fan, the last engine LR designed and put in to production was the 200 TDI !!
Best engine rather than last. The 300 was ok, but the oil pump was more prone to trouble and the thinner head warps more easily. LR also designed the TD5, their last outright new engine, which was mostly ok but has its issues like warping the exhaust manifold and oil ingress to the ECU.
I agree the 200tdi a great engine bags of torque easy to work on
I ran a IIO DEFENDER with 200 TDI ENGINE, a fantastic reliable engine, fully loaded it still did 70 MPH totally reliable. It was really built, strong bottom end. It never failed me.
Great video - looking forward to the LandRover engine.
Just a thought with the CVH valve clearance adjustment - wouldn't it be easier to measure the length of the lifter with a vernier caliper, work out how much it needs adjusting, adjust it in the vice and measure again with the caliper and adjust accordingly, before putting back in the head - could save a bit of time with all that to-ing and fro-ing! :)
Cheers!
Thats so so wrong because of a design fault theres no warranty these companies have no shame .WHY would anyone buy one?
You could probably put a vice with soft jaws in the build room to save running back and forth, thanks for sharing, all the best to yous and your loved ones
10:45 With this sort of adjustment-set up you will also be fooled around by the play within the thread!!
The moment you messure the bolt will be pushed in…. the moment you tighten the lock nut it is pushed back up again!!
This phenomina also appears when adjusting wheelbearings (mostly on heavier vehicles) where the adjustment nut is locked with a locknut…. as long as one has his wits about there won’t be a problem….
(ie. one has to compensate for the play that is removed when tightening the lock nut after adjusting….. in general add around 1/8 of a turn of play to compensate for the play that tightening the locknut will take away!)
Consider replacing the plastic cam cover/inlet manifolds. Boost presure splits them... another design flaw🙄
Can get metal ones now. I
Hi Lee, instead of counting the flats on the tappet adjustment, use your digital verneiers over the whole thing,you will get it right first go 😅😅😅👍👍👍👍👍
Agree - as long as you factor in the rocker arm ratio.
Turn the JLR stuff away. It will bite you on the bum. Only fit to be boat anchors. 🙈
To be fair it's Ford based design and produced not JLR and and all Ford V engines can be 'questionable' with the exception of the pushrod Essex V6 and 302 small block and FE big block.
As for diesels the things can often cost more in maintenance issues than they save in fuel.In the case of JLR if anyone can't afford the difference in fuel costs of the more than capable petrol versions, then they can't really afford the running costs of one anyway.
I'd be happy enough with an Si6 or the new Ingenium straight 6.Buy approved used with extended warranty under a PCP deal no worries.
Does the door to the machine shop actually close?
0n the 3.0 tdi engine all the problems seem to be with the Genmot cranks but ive never come across the problem on the Dex cranks, problem seems to be splitting across the crank webs. Hope this is of interest.
This is one of the reasons I watch channels like this - because people such as yourself come along with some (maybe priceless) knowledge
@@charliejackman2953 Be interesting to see what the problem with the Lion engine is when Lee strips it down!
Would it not have been possible to adjust the valve clearance with the valve on full lift on the CVH and then rotate it back to valve closed to check the clearance?
You may have to okf ground down an old spanner to fit
The original 1600i ones had special tools too adjust them with.
Keep up the good work
Cheers Tim
Most common job on the standard, run-of-the-mill CVH engines back in the 80s/90s was replacing leaky valve stem seals. There was a special valve spring compressor you clamped to the rocker stud so you could change them without removing the head.
ha!! that 306DT sort of sounds like the old infamous 6.4 liter diesel in the states that broke pistons all the time.. (AKA Maxxforce 7 for all the commercial guys) flawed cranks and multiple engines in such a new vehicle.. I look forward to this build, I love diesel builds
Great video, keep them coming!
Great video as usual . Could you use a vernier to measure the overall length of the solid lifter and work out the adjustment from that ? ..
LR didn't design the engine it's a ford design, they designed it to be as short as possible so it would fit transversely in some applications. The failure rate of cranks is according to LR time caused by Larry at Dagenham doing a bad job on Monday morning after his football team lost.
Larry stopped working at Dagenham a few decades ago 👍👍
No, I think it is joint venture between Peugot and JLR. Funnily enough these engines are usually OK in the Jaguar saloons. I suppose that's because they are under less stress.
No, it's a ford lion derived unit. Also used in f150. From when JLR were owned by ford. Just a newer version of 2.7 l unit
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17
@@rob19632 So that's only the 3.0 diesel in the F-150 and that's an exceedingly rare engine to find, since it was offered in 2018 and a few years after.
At the rate the Land Rover guy is destroying those engines, I hope you've got a proper disclaimer in writing, prior to starting work?
Otherwise an expensive warranty nightmare scenario, just waiting to happen.
Also meant to add that when the 2.7 TDV6 engines fail many get hold of a jaguar S type engine and swap over the bits , for some reason there seems less reports of failures with the jag engines, assume they use a different crank, or how it’s made ? , don’t know if you’ve heard the same plse , many thks
LR time channel is very good he’s very knowledgeable on these engines and crank lobes are just to thin in between the crank.
Lee, camshafts run @ 50% of engine rpm, so if your on full valve lift, 360 crank degrees is far better to ensure your on the base circle of the cam😮....
Don't forget camshaft duration is probably about 270 crank degrees so if you go a full crank revolution you will be close to the cam on ramp!
It is no coincidence that when I was looking for a Citroën C5 my mechanic told me to avoid this engine
If you’ve got some spare time, you can clean your machines down and give them a lick with some smooth right paint
Be great if you could show the land rover v6 engine getting Barums magic and the damage because of the design fault?
As has been suggested previously, might be worth a small modelling type vice which could be useful, while setting up clearances etc.
And am i wrong in thinking at 14.26 it shows the block to be a 3.0 ?
Twin turbo Land Rover engine, so yes 3.0
I worked machining billet cranks for 7 years and probably worked on a couple of thousand each year from Austin 7s to F1.
We used to receive stillages full of brand new forged Aston Martin cranks to sift through that had been made in China.
We rejected about 60% of them as they were so bad and reworked the rest, but it was still more cost effective than having them made over here.
I would not be surprised if JLR used the same manufacturing ethos which would explain a lot.
I think it's a disgrace that JLR engines are so appallingly unreliable , it's not as if they are cheap so you'd expect something half decent.
It's disgraceful how JLR don't care about quality any more or their loyal customers.
This is from an insider.........
Tata has its feet in so many different companies There are 34 publicly listed Tata Group companies with a combined market capitalisation of ₹31.6 trillion $479 billion dollars this was from my document pack on my leaving
Talking to the lads from Castle Brom plant ,home of the XJ they have seen that North America, are pulling out from them and also 4x of the main plants are on seriously bad times due to layoffs and penny pinching
Contract Manufacturing, Graz, Austria has all but stopped with source moved back to Mumbai and the big Vehicle Engineering plant in Budapest, Hungary has sold out to VW ,British plants will fold overnight as did MGR
Halewood liverpool 17% of staff and workforce gone 2021/2023
Solihull on 3 day a week since January
Castle Brom 375 layoffs in February inc staff
Ground acquired for EMC engine plant extension in Wolverhampton sold onto I54 developers for other use ,and the guys up at Whitney leaving its a rolling ball
@@julesviolin
It's shameful to see this happening to such a once revered name.
What about fitting an accusump oil accumulator. I’m led to believe the cranks fail from oil starvation when chugging the engine then booting it to overtake or towing. The torque increases before the oil pressure reaches a safe level 😮
definitely watch L R time christian will explain all as there are some critical points on those engines
I am particularly interested in the cause of failure of the Land Rover 3.0 Engine commonly fitted to the Discovery 4, watch LRTime!
The guy Kristian and his wife Vera (he is a German Engineer and Land Rover fan) has bought, taken apart and examined the failure modes of a number of the “Disco” ( Peugeot Citroen design) Engines in Disco 3 & Disco 4. Nice couple, humorous, latest is on a 3.0L Disco 4 but main points appear to be replacement Oil Pump Design, Selective Main & Conrod bearing sizes (one size shell does not fit all even so called standard cranks, complex engines do not suffer lack of maintenance.
It is a bit of a minefield but as you have the engine out you can skip to the good bits, his older video actually illustrates this very very well ( I am also an Engineer). Great Engine but compact design criteria by Citroen makes the “Lamb Chops” very thin & prone to failure resulting from poor lubrication mostly aka - poor maintenance inferior Quality Oil Pump!
I plasti-gauged all my rods and mains, it works great to verify the machine shop when installing. King bearings are very consistent.
Hi Lee, I know you like to ride your bike into work when the weather is fine, but seeing your bike in the doorway of the workshop. I think you need the next size up?
Random question please, what's your go to method to remove broken rusty bolts in the block other than welding?
Thanks
Hi I've been using plastgauge for over 30 years and while it isn't the most accurate way to measure it is quick and simple and hasn't given me a bum steer yet
I am hearing a lot about wet belts lately, and all the problems with Peugeot, VW and Ford. Do you deal in those engines and perhaps show us the damage and issues these engines suffer? It would be interesting to see how they are rebuilt after such catastrophic damage. Thanks
When I worked at a BMW dealership back in the 90s it was not unusual at all to replace 3 of their V8 engines in the same car in less than 5 years.
When my car was being MOT'd the tester was fitting the FOURTH engine to a Land Rover. It had two under warranty and another out of warranty before the fourth one going it. It's then going to auction!
A slightly strange use of a torque wrench with double clicks.
Lee, why not mic the tappet overall length rather than counting bolt flats?
Always interesting. Well done boys.
On big-ends, it pays to check bearing crush as well, particularly with problem engines.
Seems to say 3.0 cast into the engine block, rather than look at the labels.14:27
The shells on these have no tangs if i remember rightly for location in the caps does this play a part in failiures in your opinion
To adjust those lifters, divide the difference you need by the Rocker Arm Ratio, then pull the lifter, measure the length and wind it out till you add the difference you need, lock it and recheck.
Seemingly RR add a shed more diesel in extra injection squits for the DPF, this has got past worn rings and ends up diluting the engine oil, before you know it youve spun a bearing and crank snaps due to heat as its remarkably thin in areas.
Lee my good man…. James here who recommended the flooring before.
I would recommend speaking to LRD SOUTHWEST. They are based on the edge of fradon (hamburger hill) and done my landrover servicing, Timing and updated oil pump. Clive (father)and Josh (landrover tech) are very approachable and maybe willing to do a shop visit to talk about the engine maybe. #interestingvideo
Ford & VW have just started fitting the Lion V6 3.0 to the new Amarok / Ranger. Having suffered a V6 3.0 D4 engine suffer crank issues it will be interesting to see how Ford/VW get on with the Lion V6 in their own motors.
A terrible Land Rover part? Shocking!!! In other news the Sun is hot!
That 3 ltr is trouble. Let’s hope it was turned off quickly. They can be very expensive to build talking from experience 😬
Had a LR4 that blew up and seized up - crank was OK though. Main thing with these is making sure injectors are good and correctly coded to the car - transforms the smoothness of running.
Hi, maybe I'm being a bit dumb, on the CVH engine, could you use any old nut for the adjusting process, then when correct fit a 'New' nut, so it only runs down the thread 'once' just think of how much that would reduce your 'Carbon Footprint'😟
Agree - that's what came into my head when he stated that Lee replaces all the Stover nuts once the clearance job is done.
Hi, many thks as always , I’ve got a discovery 3 , ref the engine - when driving I feel the pin has been pulled from a grenade and don’t know when it will go off, lol, hope u didn’t mind I posted this on several Land Rover forums as I know there’s a lot of interest , particularly about the make of crankshafts , do u use Dex or Genmot plse as seems that the Genmot cranks also fail , thks again and would it be possible to go into great detail if ur able to spare the time with u being so busy plse, , many thks taking us along for the journey
If its had three already, chances are the previous builds are built by NWS as their reputation is shocking.
Is there any reason you would use a mic to measure and set the length of that lifter?
The problem with the JLR / Ford / PSA V6 turbodiesel is poor oiling to one vulnerable big end combined with huge amounts of torque generated in the Disco applications… as they build mileage you need to switch to slightly thicker oil not Eco-thin stuff…
Can you tell us which JLR vehicle model and possibly year these engines came out of? Some people swear it only happens in discovery vehicles
Had 5 of these engines in this year to expensive to repair
Whats gone wrong with the camera chaps, its like looking through fog, that said it got better towards the end
Why not just use a standard 5/16 nut for the adjustment phase (or whatever thread the lock nut on the rocker stud is) then once everything is set use the lock nut?
The land rover engine is the same in some jags. Yet they only give problems in the land rovers. Any ideas why?
Just due to numbers produced (not many wanted a jag diesel back then) and due to car weight.
What make/model of vehicle had this miserable engine? USA here, so not familiar with "RS".
Cvh they were always ticking.TAPET sound.
So you’ve not got round to finishing over the doors
Understood, but 270 crank degrees which is 135 degrees of camshaft duration movement is nowhere near the base circle from full valve lift...just look at any camshaft schematics...100% opposite full lift is always on the base circle at some point.
Hateful engines....jlr should be ashamed, timing belt front, pump belt at the rear and cam chains linking two cams in each head, i will never do another 1.😂😂😂😁
Things get worse with time. Problematic Cam chain at rear. #bmw #ingenium JLR
@paulhoogeveen: any engine can have good ones and others that fail early. Chev has to be different, at least in the past. Went to the expense to design and emissions certify a 2.8L 60° V6 which had a tendency to break crankshafts. Not all broke, but it was a noted problem. Kind of stoopid when Buick was producing the 3.8L and then 3.0L 90° V6 engines which were already certified and bullet reliable. Good fuel economy to boot. At about 270,000km the timing chain should be replaced and then good for probably that much more. The Buick GN cars with the 3.8L turbo could produce 600+ HP with minor modifications.
With updates the 3.8 became the 3800, 3800 Series 2 and 3800SC with an Eaton M90 supercharger.
So 58 thou down to 8 thou get your micrometer out and use that to set the lifter, simples!
Bring back the good 'ole pushrod engines. I have adjusted the tappets more times than most people have hot dinners. They lasted about 2 months then you had to do them again...or put up with the rattle. 😀
That Ford/JLR motor is absolute dog shite to put it mildly, I have a mate that runs a JLR service department. Some of those motors go bang as they come of the transporter from the factory brand new.
Where are engine's made .smoking gun
Luckily they were phased out in 2019 - 2020. New JLR designed straight six diesels and petrols are by every account excellent engines with no systemic failure issues. Wouldn't buy a used v6 diesel under any circumstances as most are now out of any warranty period.
Black from top (bit of grey) to toe lad, new BE look.
If the new crank fails, then all the oem cranks are faulty. Why don't LR ditch them and update the design????
I was trying to work out the
vehicle from the thumbnail
and decided, Land Rover.
And guess what!!!! Its why
a mechanic near me who
specialises in LR always
has half an acre of them
waiting for work to be done
all models as well. R
Is it even worth rebuilding the LR engine when you know it's going to happen again? Good money after bad. Has anyone done an engine swap for something more reliable?
wack a small pressure turbo modded pinto in it. ? sillyness but hey....
@@295walk I was thinking a Japanese turbo diesel engine, or perhaps even something by VW/Audi. At least they don't break crankshafts!
Who could ever believe that Landrover could have a "troublesome engine", especially after the Freelander POS 4 and its equally POS 6 cylinder, which they also hoodwinked KIA to use!
I've no idea why a crankshaft would break but I used to rebuild starter motors and the poor quality steel from Asia used to break in half because the I've heard that the steel industry relies on good quality electricity constantly but the leccy supply over there is really bad so poor quality steel.
Hope you find sobriety.
Another shout out for LR Time. Very detailed
Hi Lee it a Peugeot / Ford engine, no LR.
But land rover kept on fitting them.
Little Tip - Buy a Toyota......
Ford just put those V6 diesel engines into the 2023 Ford rangers here in Australia.
We See how that goes from here on. Time will tell
You need a little vice in the clean room Lee.
LR time great viewing and engineer viewpoint on the V6 diesel engine. Use 5w-40 and not 5w-dumbass !
In short the narrow width of the block results in compressed crank size so webs are small. Combine this with incomplete DPF sessions causes oil dilution and boom 💥 bearing or crank failure.
Regular checks of oil level and regular oil changes at 6k miles should give better services life
Forget what you know about engines these are a real oddball definitely check out the LR Time videos, only genuine cranks for replacement as stated in there latest video don't think you can rebore them and as Christian from LR Time says don't use 5w Dumbass oil use the 5w40. He does a great explanation on the cranks and why they fail.
Also dont use 5-30w in a LR TDV6 another LR time tip. Use 5-40w .
Those V6 Diesels were OK in the French FWD cars.
anything worth its weight in gold? for the junk yard pickers??
Think i will stick with my K series Rover engines. All the problems they had are mild 🤣
The 306D2 is a BMW engine as is the engine in the Mini .This explains why they are garbage .
Needs regular oil changes with 0w40, rather than the JLR specified 5wDumbass.