For packs, I am glad I went Ultra. A pack made with good 200-400 ultra is worth the extra weight compared to DCF when it comes to punctures, tears and abrasions. Dcf isnt pack material. But for shelters, DCF is a godsend. My Plex Solo has been the best addition to my gearset along with my new Feathered Friends bag.
I remember when fleece jackets first came out. They were considered super-high-tech, they were super-expensive, and only people who were into hiking/climbing/mountaineering owned one of them. Today you can buy a fleece jumper for a fiver. Dyneema will be equally cheap one day.
the price has come down a lot since this video. i think an overlooked pairing is to have tyvek on one side. its HMWPE and is what post usps letters are made out of or houses are wrapped with in some climates. it bonds to the dyneema stuff with just pressure and heat at around 135C, whatever that is in F. i think u can also use the same pressure adheasive stuff with the polyurathane adheasive. another thing a lot of people overlook is the potential to combine kevlar thread with these materials or even a kevlar backer like in the hyperline safe life new armor. thx for uploading
Thanks for watching! Generally tyvek works great for prototyping projects, but isn't very durable long term. I have a couple bags I've made using it and it tends to get beat up pretty quickly. Interesting note about the kevlar thread, I'll check that out!
Yeah, nice fabric for tents. Doesn't stretch in the rain or absorb water. BUT I want it colored (green or tan) for the shade and privacy. I'll dye the inner tent of my upcoming Tarptent Notch Li for those reasons. I REALLY dislike the translucent white of DCF tent flys.
There are brown "camo" versions of it too. At least the Zpacks tents have this option, but they are a tad heavier than the standard version. I dont like to wake up in a really hot tent in the morning, because the Sun is shining on it, so i went with the "spruce green" version (which uses a 0,75oz DCF material on its canopy, which is 50% stronger, and a bit thicker and less transparent than the regular version).
OK, so I just ordered a Tarptent Notch Li with a 2/3 ripstop, 1/3 netting inner tent. TT wisely made the top of the inner ripstop so I've decoded to use RIT DyeMore synthetic fabric dye to make it a medium green for some shade. I'll experiment with using permanent marker on the Dyneema fly but doubt it would be truly permanent.
I'd say Xpac VX21 takes the cake for durability compared to 2.92 oz/yd DCF hybrid. 5.0 DCF hybrid and VX21 are about the same, 5.0 DCF probably taking a slight advantage for durability.
Basically, yeah. There are certainly pros and cons. I think it's a really advanced tech fabric and I would recommend it depending on which piece of gear is being made with it, and how you treat your gear (delicately or not)
Ripstopbytheroll.com has good prices on many different types of DCF. I’m thinking about making my own tarp, and mesh house with DCF. I’m 6’5” and typically touch at least my head, if not feet and head, on the tent walls.
I used 28 gsm white fabric (mylar on the 2 surfaces, fibers on the inside) for a large backpack (old Dana Terraplane) raincover. Not counting the labour time, it was cheaper and lighter than what I would buy. I generally disagree with the luxurious look statement: the look of crumbled paper gives it a "about to fail" feeling. I wonder if this fabric comes in woven form. Will try the polyester hybrid.
Ahh man, I love the looks of DCF! I think the nature of it's translucence looks great. The polyester hybrid is a great fabric, and looks even cooler in my opinion. There are variants of woven/non-woven fabrics used on packs by companies like Cilo Gear. It's an incredible waterproof and durable option, I believe they call it "Woven Non-Woven" and it's exorbitantly expensive.
it's all in labour costs, I believe. Even at $200 per yard, the materials are cheaper than some lame Osprey backpack. If one is willing to invest a few weekends of time, I say, it's a good deal.
Hi Matt - really like the video. Recently bought some DCF and was going to sew with it. What thread, needle and tension do you use when sewing your pack?
On my Singer 20U53 machine I use a 135 x 5 (size 100/16) needle and Mara 50 or Tera 80 thread. I'm going to experiment with nylon thread soon and I'll report back on that. Tension is more about balancing the top and bottom thread tensions, so try out your stitch on a scrap a few times before starting on your pack.
For DCF like shown in the video (1.43 oz/yd) you can sew it with a normal home machine. That being said, I now use an Industrial walking foot machine called the Juki DNU 1541. This helps a ton with thicker fabrics. Hope that helps. Cheers.
Hi, sorry I can't provide my patterns. My advice would be to measure up an existing pack that you like the size of and modify the templates from there. It's truly a simple project to figure out dimensions because it's basically just a big rectangle for each panel.
Dyneema is "worth it" if you are doing a thru hike. Otherwise light gear of fabrics like silnylon is great. My UL Big Three (but no Dyneema) 1. Osprey EXOS 58 pack 2. Tarptent Moment DW solo tent 3. Western Mountaineering 20 F. down bag and REI FLASH Insulated air mattress.
Eric, it's not just for thru hikers. For some things it has big advantages for everyday backpackers. I'm a hammock guy and have used a DCF tarp for about a year. After years of dealing with nylon, and sil poly (a little better) tarp stretching and sagging. And when it gets wet, worse. Nylon and sil poly tarps absorb water, and then you have to pack a wet heavy tarp up when it rains or heavy dew. After 20 years using tarps to move to a DCF tarp is a game changer.
OK, full disclosure: I AM buying a Tarptent Notch Li (DCF) this month, not because I'm contemplating a thru hike but because I'm an aging geezer. ;o) But I still have a nylon Osprey EXOS 58 backpack for its unrivaled comfort. And carbon fiber hiking poles, and a 15 oz. REI FLASH 3 season (R 3.7) air mattress, and a Western Mountaineering Megalite down bag, etc. etc., all to save weight. And it works. Hey, even my Browning X-Bolt Pro hunting rifle has a carbon fiber stock! And i'm worth it.
Made some DCF stuff sacs and I don't rate it they all got holes in them faster than my silnlyon ones bit like X-Pac I haven't found that as good as 1000d cordura. Maybe DCF packs are better who knows but it's 10 times the price for maybe 20% increase if proformance.
What is the weight of the DCF for the stuff sacks? Never had any holes develop in my gear, including stuff made from 1.4 oz. If you go lighter, there is a chance for damage with use over time. Xpac and 1000D cordura are different textiles, in my opinion. Most Xpac variants are only 210D (VX21) where as the 1000D cordura is much tougher by design. Xpac beats out cordura for water resistance any day. The biggest advantage to DCF packs is that they are lightweight, easily repairable and extremely water resistant with seam taping.
@@RedPawPacks my stuff sacs were lighter than that ( can't remember the Oz rating) X-Pac delaminates so the waterproofing doesn't matter after that and as it can't be seam sealed ( have tried but it comes off over time)the only difference with that and cordura is how long they repel water for before leaking. Cost to performance is the big issue I can buy 20x more cordura than DCF ( it's mega expensive here in Europe as well as posting cost more) I have used alot of different fabrics over they years ( cotton canvas, cordura ,X-Pac , spectra ripstop ,plain old ripstop nylon) and it's the design that matters most and none of they ever were waterproof for any length of time ( big hole in the top and they get pin hole almost straight away) now for tents I think it is very good but still you save few hundred grams max ( over a good silnlyon tent or tarp) but again here in Europe it's not worth the cost !
Dyneema weakest point is abrasion. (Wind blows a stick,sand into your new Zpack tent) Dyneemas second weak point: Seam failure from needle hole expansion is a common issue. Dyneemas third weak point: It shrinks Why it is so expensive: It is difficult to work with (meaning few companies know how to build quality products made from Cuben). Price is going up every day on DCF as demand is rising. Do not fear, the hype will die out. Nylon’s well-balanced characteristics make it a good choice in most outdoor applications and will always be superior. Dyneema was invented by Albert Pennings in 1963 but made commercially available by DSM in 1990, its nothing new, its just a hype.
The worries about DCF not being strong enough seem groundless... People have used the same Zpacks Duplex tent for multiple through hikes (equivalent to over a year of sleeping in it every night), and it still looks pretty much good as new. Any holes are easily fixed with some DCF tape... For the more occasional backpackers, such a tent could last them MANY years, or maybe even the rest of their lives, so even though i think it is weird that this fabric is this expensive, i still think the Duplex is worth its price :)
Is it worth it ??? UH yeah it is because it gives youtubers like Red Paw Packs lots of material to make videos about. This video and 100's of others as well, are evidence of this.
@@maaanuel87 No worries, didn't seem like a bash to me! I didn't make the material either, haha. IKEA bag texture is honestly pretty close to the feel of DCF in some sense.
For packs, I am glad I went Ultra. A pack made with good 200-400 ultra is worth the extra weight compared to DCF when it comes to punctures, tears and abrasions. Dcf isnt pack material. But for shelters, DCF is a godsend. My Plex Solo has been the best addition to my gearset along with my new Feathered Friends bag.
Totally agree. I made this video years before Ultra fabrics were created. Now, the majority of the bags I make for Red Paw are made from Ultra 200.
True
@@RedPawPacksand true
I remember when fleece jackets first came out. They were considered super-high-tech, they were super-expensive, and only people who were into hiking/climbing/mountaineering owned one of them. Today you can buy a fleece jumper for a fiver. Dyneema will be equally cheap one day.
I certainly hope so!
chesshooligan 1 fleece has more utility than DCF
So 4 years later…DCF is more expensive then it has ever been, and the cost seems to be going up.
@@christianb8228 You need to wait for patents to expire.
the price has come down a lot since this video. i think an overlooked pairing is to have tyvek on one side. its HMWPE and is what post usps letters are made out of or houses are wrapped with in some climates. it bonds to the dyneema stuff with just pressure and heat at around 135C, whatever that is in F. i think u can also use the same pressure adheasive stuff with the polyurathane adheasive. another thing a lot of people overlook is the potential to combine kevlar thread with these materials or even a kevlar backer like in the hyperline safe life new armor. thx for uploading
Thanks for watching! Generally tyvek works great for prototyping projects, but isn't very durable long term. I have a couple bags I've made using it and it tends to get beat up pretty quickly. Interesting note about the kevlar thread, I'll check that out!
Totally agree 🙌
Yeah, nice fabric for tents. Doesn't stretch in the rain or absorb water. BUT I want it colored (green or tan) for the shade and privacy.
I'll dye the inner tent of my upcoming Tarptent Notch Li for those reasons. I REALLY dislike the translucent white of DCF tent flys.
There are brown "camo" versions of it too. At least the Zpacks tents have this option, but they are a tad heavier than the standard version.
I dont like to wake up in a really hot tent in the morning, because the Sun is shining on it, so i went with the "spruce green" version (which uses a 0,75oz DCF material on its canopy, which is 50% stronger, and a bit thicker and less transparent than the regular version).
OK, so I just ordered a Tarptent Notch Li with a 2/3 ripstop, 1/3 netting inner tent. TT wisely made the top of the inner ripstop so I've decoded to use RIT DyeMore synthetic fabric dye to make it a medium green for some shade. I'll experiment with using permanent marker on the Dyneema fly but doubt it would be truly permanent.
Enjoyed the video. Just picked up my first dyneema pack and I’m pretty excited about it. Great channel.
Thanks! Dyneema is a great pack material. My absolute favorite.
TOP CLASS VIDEO MATE ! ! !
Dyneema is difficult to sidestep ! ! !
Thanks Andrew! Dyneema fabrics sure are expensive, but they are certainly excellent.
How does DCF compare to Xpac? Especially in terms of stiffness and durability...
I'd say Xpac VX21 takes the cake for durability compared to 2.92 oz/yd DCF hybrid. 5.0 DCF hybrid and VX21 are about the same, 5.0 DCF probably taking a slight advantage for durability.
In short, if you have the money... yes.
Basically, yeah. There are certainly pros and cons. I think it's a really advanced tech fabric and I would recommend it depending on which piece of gear is being made with it, and how you treat your gear (delicately or not)
Ripstopbytheroll.com has good prices on many different types of DCF.
I’m thinking about making my own tarp, and mesh house with DCF. I’m 6’5” and typically touch at least my head, if not feet and head, on the tent walls.
Sounds like a great project! Yes, RBTR is my favorite supplier.
I used 28 gsm white fabric (mylar on the 2 surfaces, fibers on the inside) for a large backpack (old Dana Terraplane) raincover. Not counting the labour time, it was cheaper and lighter than what I would buy. I generally disagree with the luxurious look statement: the look of crumbled paper gives it a "about to fail" feeling. I wonder if this fabric comes in woven form. Will try the polyester hybrid.
Ahh man, I love the looks of DCF! I think the nature of it's translucence looks great. The polyester hybrid is a great fabric, and looks even cooler in my opinion. There are variants of woven/non-woven fabrics used on packs by companies like Cilo Gear. It's an incredible waterproof and durable option, I believe they call it "Woven Non-Woven" and it's exorbitantly expensive.
it's all in labour costs, I believe. Even at $200 per yard, the materials are cheaper than some lame Osprey backpack. If one is willing to invest a few weekends of time, I say, it's a good deal.
Hi Matt - really like the video. Recently bought some DCF and was going to sew with it. What thread, needle and tension do you use when sewing your pack?
On my Singer 20U53 machine I use a 135 x 5 (size 100/16) needle and Mara 50 or Tera 80 thread. I'm going to experiment with nylon thread soon and I'll report back on that. Tension is more about balancing the top and bottom thread tensions, so try out your stitch on a scrap a few times before starting on your pack.
What sewing machine do you use? The fabric is thicker so do you need an industrial or heavy duty sewing machine?
For DCF like shown in the video (1.43 oz/yd) you can sew it with a normal home machine. That being said, I now use an Industrial walking foot machine called the Juki DNU 1541. This helps a ton with thicker fabrics. Hope that helps. Cheers.
Hi do you have a link to these fabrics that you purchased?
ripstopbytheroll.com/collections/dyneema-composite-fabric
I like going to Costa Rica
Where do you find the dyneema fabric ?
Ripstopbytheroll.com!
Liked the video...very high qulaity. Subbed.
I am interested in making my own. Do you have a pattern or have advice for a beginner pack maker?
Hi, sorry I can't provide my patterns. My advice would be to measure up an existing pack that you like the size of and modify the templates from there. It's truly a simple project to figure out dimensions because it's basically just a big rectangle for each panel.
ripstopbytheroll has DIY patterns.
Dyneema is "worth it" if you are doing a thru hike. Otherwise light gear of fabrics like silnylon is great.
My UL Big Three (but no Dyneema)
1. Osprey EXOS 58 pack
2. Tarptent Moment DW solo tent
3. Western Mountaineering 20 F. down bag and REI FLASH Insulated air mattress.
Eric, it's not just for thru hikers. For some things it has big advantages for everyday backpackers. I'm a hammock guy and have used a DCF tarp for about a year. After years of dealing with nylon, and sil poly (a little better) tarp stretching and sagging. And when it gets wet, worse. Nylon and sil poly tarps absorb water, and then you have to pack a wet heavy tarp up when it rains or heavy dew. After 20 years using tarps to move to a DCF tarp is a game changer.
OK, full disclosure:
I AM buying a Tarptent Notch Li (DCF) this month, not because I'm contemplating a thru hike but because I'm an aging geezer. ;o) But I still have a nylon Osprey EXOS 58 backpack for its unrivaled comfort. And carbon fiber hiking poles, and a 15 oz. REI FLASH 3 season (R 3.7) air mattress, and a Western Mountaineering Megalite down bag, etc. etc., all to save weight. And it works. Hey, even my Browning X-Bolt Pro hunting rifle has a carbon fiber stock! And i'm worth it.
Made some DCF stuff sacs and I don't rate it they all got holes in them faster than my silnlyon ones bit like X-Pac I haven't found that as good as 1000d cordura. Maybe DCF packs are better who knows but it's 10 times the price for maybe 20% increase if proformance.
What is the weight of the DCF for the stuff sacks? Never had any holes develop in my gear, including stuff made from 1.4 oz. If you go lighter, there is a chance for damage with use over time. Xpac and 1000D cordura are different textiles, in my opinion. Most Xpac variants are only 210D (VX21) where as the 1000D cordura is much tougher by design. Xpac beats out cordura for water resistance any day.
The biggest advantage to DCF packs is that they are lightweight, easily repairable and extremely water resistant with seam taping.
@@RedPawPacks my stuff sacs were lighter than that ( can't remember the Oz rating) X-Pac delaminates so the waterproofing doesn't matter after that and as it can't be seam sealed ( have tried but it comes off over time)the only difference with that and cordura is how long they repel water for before leaking. Cost to performance is the big issue I can buy 20x more cordura than DCF ( it's mega expensive here in Europe as well as posting cost more) I have used alot of different fabrics over they years ( cotton canvas, cordura ,X-Pac , spectra ripstop ,plain old ripstop nylon) and it's the design that matters most and none of they ever were waterproof for any length of time ( big hole in the top and they get pin hole almost straight away) now for tents I think it is very good but still you save few hundred grams max ( over a good silnlyon tent or tarp) but again here in Europe it's not worth the cost !
Don’t forget LiteAF
🙌
Dyneema weakest point is abrasion. (Wind blows a stick,sand into your new Zpack tent)
Dyneemas second weak point: Seam failure from needle hole expansion is a common issue.
Dyneemas third weak point: It shrinks
Why it is so expensive: It is difficult to work with (meaning few companies know how to build quality products made from Cuben).
Price is going up every day on DCF as demand is rising.
Do not fear, the hype will die out.
Nylon’s well-balanced characteristics make it a good choice in most outdoor applications and will always be superior.
Dyneema was invented by Albert Pennings in 1963 but made commercially available by DSM in 1990, its nothing new, its just a hype.
The worries about DCF not being strong enough seem groundless... People have used the same Zpacks Duplex tent for multiple through hikes (equivalent to over a year of sleeping in it every night), and it still looks pretty much good as new. Any holes are easily fixed with some DCF tape... For the more occasional backpackers, such a tent could last them MANY years, or maybe even the rest of their lives, so even though i think it is weird that this fabric is this expensive, i still think the Duplex is worth its price :)
What camera are you hiking with?
The Sony A6500 with the 10-18mm f/4 lens or sigma 16mm f/1.4 lens
Is it worth it ??? UH yeah it is because it gives youtubers like Red Paw Packs lots of material to make videos about. This video and 100's of others as well, are evidence of this.
Have never made a dime from UA-cam, just wanted to add to the discussion about fabrics and materials
Lol. It is just lightweight. It is not a fraction resistant. I have a pack that is all spectra.
How does it look special? Looks like IKEA bags. Doesn't keep it from possibly being really good of course.
The crinkly texture and translucent nature of it makes it look special to me. Subjective, of course
@@RedPawPacks My comment sounds pretty harsh in hindsight, sorry. Didn't mean to bash. :)
@@maaanuel87 No worries, didn't seem like a bash to me! I didn't make the material either, haha. IKEA bag texture is honestly pretty close to the feel of DCF in some sense.