What Walking Wake Tells Us About Paradox Pokémon
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Walking Wake is a deeply weird Pokémon that somehow manages to disprove the Paradox phenomenon and some of the foundational myths of the Pokémon world at the same time. How can this Pokémon's existence be explained? Let's talk about it.
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I was never convinced it was a true time machine. Sure, it's possible, but with how all the future paradoxes look like robots, and Brute Bonnet's existence, it seemed more likely to be imagination or something. I like the multiverse theory a lot too!
Exactly, particularly with the past paradoxes.. Brute Bonnet and Sandy Shocks are technological contradictions. Now Walking Wake is a lore contradiction. It makes far more sense that these Pokémon have been brought to us from places FAR different from our evolutionary history. That way, it honors the paradox name. They don’t make sense in this universe. But they do in others. A logical paradox.
@@TamValleyProductions Brute Bonnet isn't a technological contradiction at all. Foongus' latest dex entry claims that the creator of the modern poke ball based it off Foongus, rather than the other way around(Unlike Voltorb and Electrode, whose Hisuian forms show they likely started as completely different pokemon before developing traits that happened to make it look like Poke balls.)
Sandy Shocks could very easily be a similar case: In the Pokemon world, magnets may be based on Magnemite.
Arent most prehistoric and future interpritations of creatures imagined?
@@DragonspineInfiniteZero no
@@Tsukune2001 yes they are, but we've made our imaginations a reality. our technological advancements were achieved through unimaginable dreams.
This definitely gets me thinking, if the paradox pokemon are from a different universe what if they’re not from the past or future at all and there just from a universes where things happened differently. So what if in the scarlet paradox universe Ho-oh didn’t revive 3 mammalian based pokemon but instead revived 3 reptilian based pokemon instead.
That's very possible in an infinite multiverse!
But what could the reptilian pokemon be? I'm not poking holes in your theory, but I'm curious what it could be.
Like Suicune was a Vaporeon or a Glaceon, so what would Walking Wake have originally been?
@@thatwaffleguy4958 that universe’s version of vaporeon actually
@@TamValleyProductions
Or Walking Wake is a dinosaur, Ho-Oh is a bird, and Ho-Oh made Suicune, so maybe Walking Wake is more a relative of Ho-Oh.
@@anticrop
Yes, exactly.
Glad that someone out there is giving the alternative universe theory a chance since these two kind of put a hole in the dream theory. Also what if Ho-oh in prehistoric times did the same thing to dying ancient dragons pokemon and the beast are Ho-oh second attempt?
If they do go for the "these are really from the past" officially, that latter bit is gonna be my theory. Ho-Oh could easily be ancient - it's a phoenix, so it's likely undying - and the crest things on the legendary beasts could actually be marks from Ho-Oh. This could be what happens if Ho-Oh resurrects a Tyrantrum or something.
@@nicholas851 So Entei fused with Tyrantrum? That sounds awesome!
@@thatwaffleguy4958 Hope we get it especially since the data mine show Tyrantrum is not coming back. Knock on wood.
With multiverse theory already being well established in the canon, I really like the explanation you proposed. Keeps the time machine aspect intact while also allowing the paradox mons to remain, well, paradoxical.
Exactly! They are paradoxical when examined within our own universe/timeline. But once widening the scope to infinite, multiversal possibilities, they make more than enough sense.
Before you mentioned the idea of multiverses i was going to mention that "past" paradox pokemon could just as easily be from a more feral version of the future. A future where contemporary pokemon evolved to fill similar niches to prehistoric pokemon . And it's only by our interpretation of judging by our notions of what prehistoric creatures look like that we even refer to them as past paradoxes in the first place.
Exacrly my thoughts!
Combining that with the various "future" paradox mons that are said to have been created by an ancient civilisation, I wonder if we've got past and future the wrong way around.
Multiverse is already canon. One with mega evolution and with none. Plus the let’s Go Game is another universe, since you are not Red/Green that defeat team Rocket
@@cobaltcorsair592 We've also seen pokemon like Sigilyph and Golurk that were explicitly created by humans in an ancient civilization. If you made a "Paradox" version of them they'd just a cartoon robot and a surveillance drone.
Something I haven't seen others mention yet is the idea that it IS a time machine and the legend of the sacred beasts DOES hold up in a similar way to how Roaring Moon resembles Mega Salamence
Basically, when Ho-Oh revived the legendary beasts, they took on more aspects of their ancestors, and in Suicune's case that made it look like Walking Wake
The idea does have its issues (Like how Suicune is very leopard-like and Walking Wake is more reptilian), but I could see it as a possibility for if the time machine is real somehow.
That’s not a bad idea! I could definitely see that, since nothing says Ho-Oh couldn’t have used its divine power to resurrect more “modern” versions of ancient Pokémon. And Walking Wake could have definitely existed in the distant past as a reptilian creature that slowly evolved into a mammal, similar to many mammals having their roots in the Jurassic period in real life and resembling hybrids of mammals and reptiles.
Also, Mega Aerodactyl's pokedex entry says that Mega Evolution Awakened Ancient Genes in the pokemon's body, and this is its true form. So, Mega Evolution CAN revive ancient genes, and possibly Reincarnation can too.
The lizard to leopard thing could just be evolution
I have
It is fictional maybe some mammalian pokemon looked like that for better survival at one point
Personally, I think that each of the beasts will get its own paradox instead of an amalgam of a trio, since Walking Wake and Iron Leaves are its own Pokémon.
2 theories, one is, the events of pokémon also take place after the events of the 2 Jade Cocoon games. Reason being is that you can MERGE 2 mons together and create a hybrid, much like Walking Wake, or, as I like to call it, due to my second theory, Sui-Haxorus....Yes, I also think it could be a paradox form of Haxorus of all dragons.
What if with each dlc part they released one more part of the trio?
Yes and heath probs saw all 6 pokemon and kinda fused them together in his journal
@@jasonz31 ua-cam.com/video/dVLFetfpzWI/v-deo.html
@@jasonz31he didn’t though because he made up the fused trio paradox mons.
Here's an interpretation intact with the official explanation: Ho-oh modeled the legendary Beasts off prehistoric Paradox Pokemon. Suicune was created using Walking Wave as a template
That's something that popped into my mind as likely too.
I like that theory
*Walking Wake exists*
Johto Lore Enjoyers:"This shouldn't exist it breaks the lore that Ho-Oh revived dead Vapereon,Flareon,and Joltean."
Me who likes Dinosaurs:"Dino Suicune looks majestic and cool!"
I’m in both camps! I always have a huge reverence for Pokémon lore, but… *blue Dino go brrr*
Although you have to admit about the irony of flareon dieing in a fire
@@plasmadragoon but any fire pokemon can be beaten with fire moves, right?
There is an idea that I'm suprised hasn't been talked about. While I do really like the multiverse theory (and the pokemon multiverse is canon) there is another explination for how in one timeline both Walking Wake and Suicune exist...
Ho-Ho revived more than one beast in it's eternal lifetime. In the anchent past another trio of pokemon died in a particularly unfair and cruel way just like the Legendary Beasts. Ho-Ho, a phoenix who has an infinite lifespan due to constant cycles of death and renewal came across these beasts and brought them back. That would explain why Walking wake is a dinosaur/reptile while Suicune is a leopard-like mammal. They are two different species that happen due to the same pokemon's involvement look similar.
I mean this is the same generation that introduces Wigglet/Wugtrio and Toedscool and Toedscrule. This is legendary convergent evolution.
Its also possible the ho-oh myth is just a myth from johto and not factual in-universe history.
A lot of pokemon lore and even dex enteries are canonically just people's takes and not concrete fact.
Which would explain why multiple trainers can have/encounter multiple versions of any given legendary
I just wanted to say you’re my favourite poketuber and I highly rate all your videos. The use of imagery, the music, the commentary, the very well thought out & fair opinions you have, I enjoy going to your channel and watching every video. Just a thank-you and appreciation for your hard work and for sharing your thoughts. I always take something new from them. Doesnt go unnoticed! Keep it up bro!
Thank you, that means so much! Striving to get better with each new video.
I've been theorizing that the "time machine" isn't pulling from our universe's timeline since the games came out. I believe the machine is more like the technology used in Everything Everywhere All At Once where it pulls from neighbouring unvierses/timelines and the further away the target universe/timeline is the more differences the pokemon pulled in will have.
Exactly! That’s pretty much how the MCU seems to be handling it, too, where there are neighbor universes that are merely small timeline branches, but some with HUGE differences. The Time Machine here seems to be incredibly powerful so I wouldn’t look past it’s ability to pull from multiverses both near (Scream Tail, Roaring Moon) and far (Sandy Shocks or Walking Wake, where they NEED to be from a different universe to even make sense.)
Fantastic example
That movie absolutely rocked 10/10
The time machine reminds of an episode of Captain Simian and the space monkeys. The one where the cast found this giant crack that grants wishes. Only to find out that it was some sleeping giant that could destroy reality if it woke up.
Pretty sure the 2nd Gen's trading machine was told to us straight up that it's a time machine. And that tech has only gotten better. Not only can it pull from the past but other timelines (parallel universes) now too. I'm pretty sure that they'd know what a time machine is and to what and when it's connecting to.
@@TamValleyProductionsMy issue with this theory though is the fact of Mega Evolutions. If you are to look at Roaring Moon and Mega Salamance, the resemblance is too close. Megas being modern versions of what they were in the past.
If only Walking Wake and Iron Leaves had existing dex entries. It probably might help us get a little more insight on the lore between these two.
I whole-heartedly agree, I was a bit bummed that they didnt, maybe when we get home connectivity, or with at least 1 of the DLC
Most likely not since all the dex entry's basically say eh it vaguely looks like this thing in a dubious book XD
@@TelikiMouse while I do hate that, and its the same reason why the Ultra Beasts entries in the Ultra games sucked, but little information is better than no information at all
I believe that the whole multi verse thing is over complicating it. The pokemon only exists because people think about them existing, but people only think about them existing because they exists. Ie a paradox.
No actually it doesn't literally the multiverse in pokemon got established in omega ruby alpha sapphire delta episode and ultra beast are alternate universe pokemon so this theory is taking something already established canon
This is a brilliant theme. It’s like how no one has ever seen a dinosaur…yet we created sketches as to what they may look like. So much that we actually believe we know the creature appearance due to technology all while NEVER seeing one in real time.
The Pokémon Company KNEW this would be a frenzy 🤣
I like to think that the drawings were the paradox forms of the leaders of those respective trios, the one in the scarlet book being entei and the one in the violet book being cobalion.
Also I have names for them,
Entei: burning earth.
Cobalion:iron leader
So I guess we will get the paradox form of entei in the future
To be fair tho, the sketch for walking wake resembles entei more than suicune
@@theadmiral4157 true
Also do you like my names for them
Heres my hunch
What if the reason the legends in the books were depicted as fusions because thats what they were originally and maybe someone or something found a way to split them apart leading to why we got the reveal of walking wake/iron leaves so early, the others could maybe be locked behind the actual dlc..? This could also mean that the paradox pokemon aren’t actually descendants and ancestors since it wouldn’t make sense with suicunes backstory so maybe they’re just regular pokemon adapted to the “world” the time machine takes you to, or simply the normal form of the original pokemon in that world
I personally think that the time machine is in fact a time machine (or technically it's a quantum teleporter as it crosses realities and time) and these pokemon are in fact pokemon from the past and future, Just not "our" past or future.
A paradox is defined as something seemingly contradictory to what we know to be true, but when investigated is proven to be well founded.
In other words Ho-Oh created Suicune and Suicune Has a Ancient Ancestor are both true, Neither is incorrect despite how impossible that may seem.
The reason why that is, the time machine as stated in the video is pulling from different points in time from different realities in different universe, And there is already some bases for this in previous pokemon games ie. Gen 7 with the ultra wormholes, Gen 6 and the 2 timelines (one with megas and one without megas), ORAS Zinea coming from a different Hoen reality in a different timeline and reality.
That's pretty much what I think too! It's an augmented temporal device, and for whatever reason is exclusively pulling from the past and futures of OTHER realities rather than our own.
@@TamValleyProductions Now the bigger question is why and how? And what does the 3 legend have to do with this (if anything, bcuz with all this in mind it's starting to appear that 3rd legend isn't necessarily responsible for "creating" these pokemon or influencing people to "dream them up and obsess over making them appear" so much as it is responsible for generating the power necessary to accomplish such a task).
Essentially is Terapagos really responsible and these mons being brought are intentional on it part? or is it simply acting more like a super conductor that also functions as a bridge to make it happen and it's accidental ?
Yesterday I was taking with some mates and from my perspective there are 2 ways that Walking Wake could have come to be. 1. This isn’t prehistoric Suicune, this is our idea of prehistory mapped into Suicune because Paradox Pokémon aren’t “real”
Or that the immortal Phoenix Ho-Oh has revived other Pokémon throughout all of time and it has no imagination so when it revives Pokémon they always look like Suicune, Entei, and Raikou.
in the zoroark movie there are shiny version of the legendary beast so ho-oh did make more.
edit: also in the games battle frontier leaders can have one of the legendary beast. mainly battle castle brain Darach with his Entei, battle palace brain Spenser with his Suicune and emerald battle tower brain Anabel who has both Raikou and Entei
@@Runedrace And now we go back to the question: are those alternate universes where the legendary trio is shiny... or are there truly more of them? Also, does that make the myth "fake" or since the creation of the trio they multiplied/hoho saved more pokemon?
@@capuchinosofia4771
the zoroark movie take place in the anime verse where legendaries can have children (ie: the lugia named Silver).
In the games you got to look at HGSS since Darach is a sinnoh frontier brain that can be battled in the johto battle frontier and he can have an Entei and since you can catch Entei that means there is more then 1 of the legendary beast or at least more than 1 Entei.
@@Runedrace ohhh that´s interesting to know! Thank you for telling me!
It’s in the name, *paradox* Pokémon. Pokémon that should not exist, not just because of the time period but because their existence contradicts known facts.
i like the idea that the "time machine" is really just a way the terastal phenomenon helps bring dreams to reality. It seems to me like terastal in general is more about the power of imagination than anything real. But I've got my own "real" theory too that ho-oh simply based the beasts upon these old creatures it used to know! I like to imagine that most if not all legendary pokemon have reincarnation cycles. Three beasts made from corpses to resemble ancient pokemon by a phoenix seem like a great candidate for things that have a reincarnation cycle LOL
I really like the idea that they're from alternate pasts and futures, it feels really cool, especially with ultra space being a thing. For some reason I really don't dig the ''they're imaginary'' theory, i cant quite say why, but i dont like it
Me neither. It doesn’t make too much sense for them to be completely “imaginary”, but “imagined” has a totally different connotation since the multiverse is infinite and anything imagined or envisioned can be found in reality somewhere.
@@TamValleyProductions True that!
Yeah, the Dream theory relies on Turo/Sada
Basing their whole career on the book (that much is true i think) bit (correct me if Im wrong) Heath never said they were past/future forms, he just claimed "there's robots/mammoths down here" the time machine WAS the plot twist there was never a reason for a double plot twist
@@chonflis3834 the problem is that nobody ever found any trace of the creatures Heath's expedition supposedly found, even Professor Sada/Turo FAILED to find any trace of them, since their journal entries in Area Zero fail to mention any of the Paradoxes already living in the crater, and their A.I double thinks that the "time" machine is the single source of all of them
@@cgoober2000 holy shit yeah!
Its the AI professors who say its a time machine, we're not sure if the original profs thought it was. Im a little more on board with it *not* being a time machine
Hey man! Just so you know the Patreon link doesn't work atm! Also GREAT video! A very interesting theory
My running theory is that Ho-oh is much older than believed, and there have been multiple suicune in the past.
Walking wake does look like one of the fossil pokemon from the Galar region.
So, my feelings (and current questions) regarding the Paradox Pokemon are, at this point in time, as follows (big text gap ahead so as to avoid spoiling anyone on the plot to S/V):
.) We know that Paradox Pokemon were appearing in Area Zero prior to the first human contact with the location. How did they get there without means of a time machine or similar device? Remember, the professor (Turo or Sada depending on version) made that time machine with the intent of bringing over more specimens of the Paradox Pokemon for the sake of study, both in regards to the species of Paradox Pokemon already present in Area Zero, as well as possibly other Paradox Pokemon from the same future/past that had yet to appear in Area Zero. However, the first specimens they tried to bring over outside of what had already appeared in Area Zero, Koraidon/Miraidon, resulted in an incident ending in the professor's death.
.) In the cave where one can find either Iron Valiant or Roaring Moon, there is a very noticeable sigil of some sort carved into ground in the middle of the room. Not only that, but for some reason, the ground around that sigil is lit up as if it were under sunlight, despite the fact that there's nothing but the solid cave roof above it. Could this sigil have something to do with the initial appearance of Paradox Pokemon in Area Zero?
.) A common theory I've heard is that the Paradox Pokemon were created in response to someone's desires or imagination. However, once again, the Paradox Pokemon were in Area Zero well before any human ever set foot into the place. So that raises the question, who or what was the presence of Paradox Pokemon granting the desires/manifesting the imagination of?
.) While some are saying that Paradox Pokemon are absolutely from the past/future, and other are insisting they're from some sort of alternate timeline or some other multiversal place, could it be possible that both are true? They're clearly from the past/future, but so far there's not a whole lot to suggest that that past/future is OUR past/future.
.) If the Paradox Pokemon ARE merely manifestations of someone/thing's desires or imagination, could the source of it lie in the past/future world rather than in our time? And what could those desires possibly be? With the past Paradoxes, could there be an ongoing extinction event that someone/thing wanted a place where the Pokemon of that time could be sent to and survive? With the future Paradoxes, could there be some sort of calamity in the future? And could humans of this time discovering that the Pokemon of the future are merely androids lead to humanity taking a course of action that prevents this calamity? The possibilities are quite numerous, so we really can't answer this one right now.
The fact that they're called paradox pokemon means that they are impossible. If this theory is true, then we have our answer as to what these things are.
I guess we'll find out with more from the DLC!
Okay, something I’ve been holding onto was that it should be impossible for an ancient version of Magneton to exist because magnets are a bit more modern.
However, while the idea of a multiverse is always on the minds of many, I never really thought of Iron Sands as having come from a parallel universe where it could be possible that there was an unga-bunga version of Magneton, which could mean similar types of forms for Magnemite and Magnezone.
I thank you for opening my mind a bit to such potential.
Even if magnets are a bit modern, you have to remember that while the developers designed Pokémon based on real life stuff, in the Pokémon world it’s often the other way around-people make stuff based on Pokémon; written language came from people making a code based on the different forms of Unown; the famous Castelia Cone ice cream was inspired by and designed based on Vanillite/Vanillish/Vanilluxe.
@@johncronk8867 except all the past paradoxes break all the design rules of fossil Pokémon, which are ACTUALLY from the past and according to the anime actually looked that way back then too (probably not true and just anime weirdness though), which though the past paradoxes could be explained by being from the actual past instead of merely revived, I don't think that explanation covers why the past paradoxes look like common tropes and misconceptions about the past, sorta like the Flintstones, while all the fossil Pokémon are grounded in actual palaeontology.
@@cgoober2000 remember the definition of the word paradox
This is your first video recommended to me and honestly this video is put well together. I'm ready to binge everything else now, instant sub.
Thanks so much, and welcome to the community!
the Pokémon multiverse concept is very interesting if you ask me
Im personally convinced that the Area Zero time machine is actually just an Ultra Wormhole which is pulling in parallel universe pokemon
I think people are ignoring the key word Paradox, meaning Self-Contradictory. It seems to fit the role perfectly.
Maybe the eeveelutions being the legendary beasts theory is true and walking wake is a paradox vaporeon and the eeveelutions are the way they are today because of domestication and the legendary beasts tapped into their primal genes when ho oh revived them
Cant wait to get into this as Walking Wake kinda breaks the lore
Exactly! It both somehow breaks the lore and fits in pretty well when you reframe your view of Paradox Pokémon. This one is a total game changer for the phenomenon and I love it.
@@TamValleyProductions I gotta say I love that final theory, mainly because I’m working on a project that explores branched Pokémon timelines, but yeah if ever there’s no defined theory I’ll believe that one
*if only it's implied somewhere that it's a paradox or something*
Couldn’t walking wake be one of the Pokémon that died in the tower and got revived in a more elegant form by ho oh? I don’t think it’s lore breaking unless you believed in the Evee evolutions theory which was head cannon to begin with.
Everybody is having this dispute over whether walking wake is a prehistoric suicune or not, no one's ever brought up the fact that Ho-Oh Is it possibly ancient creature itself and could have based the beast trio off of creatures it had seen before granting life. Or possibly, the original pokémon that died in the tower was a descendant of the walking wake and ho oh just changed it to its new form, while retaining some of its old features, such as it's crest
Good theory!
There was also another idea I think could be used to make the legend of ho-oh still be real, it’s that walking wake is actually the progenitor of suicune and after millions of years it evolved into something different and when suicune revived it it became the suicune we now
It's kind of odd that Pokemon can now rival the multiverse mayhem of Marvel and DC.
Ash has already experienced several time travels.
Alternate realities are mentioned in which, for example, no megaevolutions exist.
There is an ultra dimension through which these alternate realities can likely be reached (hyperspace). This dimension is also inhabited by creatures that are relatively similar to the well-known Pokemon.
We also have the distortion world, which is a mirror to normal reality and could be called a subspace.
And now we also have these Paradox Pokemon that look like the main universe, but everything is completely different. Therefore, it is probably really not a time machine, but only leads to other realities that are even different than those already known from the ultra portals. The truth of what these worlds are can be even crazier, so that they are actually not accessible via ultra portals, but only via this time machine.
definitely agree for the most part and subscribe to the idea that the time machine accesses alternate timelines/parallel universes rather than the past and future of our own
An interesting and compelling theory, but it does bring up the question, where do Sada/Turo go in the end when they go through the Time Machine? Does it just fling them aimlessly into some random alternate universe instead of into the past/future they intended to go to?
Maybe they end up having themselves sent to the universe that best matches their expectations of the past/future. And then obviously they're stuck there, but hopefully happy with what they got.
I like to think Turo is living it up in the dystopian future while Sada got mauled by some beast upon arrival
Alternate Universe, Timeline, Dimension, whatever you wanna call it? It Exists, in-cannon in the Pokemon world.
How do we know?
Ultra Wormholes from Sun and Moon/ The alola Region.
Not to mention explicit mention from Zinnia in the Delta Episode!
Another hint to this are that this gen brought convergent evolution pokemon. The plant type that looks like tentacool and tentacruel or the water type that looks like diglett and dugtrio.
Two other pokemon that have NO relation to older pokemon we already knew about but share similar traits. Paradox Pokemon (for scarlet) could also be another dimensions pokemon that converged to have traits similar to what we already know
Damm I think you are the only poketuber that I know who makes vids like this, defo checking more out
I really think the paradox Pokémon are generated entirely by the user’s imagination. The books I’m the game have paradox Pokémon prior to the existence of the Time Machine, which even Arvin calls out as suspicious
That's what im saying but people keep on saying "oh it's just time travel" when there is evidence that says otherwise
The game even planted this seed with the convergent Pokémon. This is theiry would make the Paradoxes a more extreme version of the same concept.
As the great artist CAT once said: 'The creation of the future requires Imagination.'
There's also the possibility that crashing wake existed a long time ago and got extinct. When the pokemon died at the tower ho-oh fused them with this ancient pokemon, and that's how the 3 dogs where born. Not everything have to be multiverse.
My personal headcanon to explain walking wake as suicune's paradox ancestor without breaking lore or incorporating any multiversal shenanigans is as follows.
We know that when the brass tower burned down there were three pokemon within that perished, and while we know they were resurrected as the three beasts by Ho-oh, we do NOT have a definitive answer as to WHAT they were before that. Think however to Roaring Moon's dex entry that mentions how megamence may have been drawing on that ancient form for its power.
See where I'm going with this? Even if you use the popular fan theory that the beasts' original forms were that of vaporeon, jolteon, and flareon, who's to say that when Ho-oh reincarnated them, the power it used couldn't have drawn out a portion of that ancient form in the process?
TL:DR - Walking Wake is to Suicune what Roaring Moon is to Mega Salamence imo
I feel like they’ve been very clearly trying to show that ALL the paradox forms are not really from the past or future.
Similar ti what you brought up, these creatures are not at all related to current day species but rather imaginary creatures that look like last or future versions.
Multiverse’s are cool but definitely overdone in recent media so I’m hoping it’s not a multiverse machine and more of a imagination-to-life machine.
I think people are dissapointed, is because the sketch look has a subjectively better visual than what they got. I personally think that the sketch of Suicune, Entei and Raikou was more cool too than Walking Wake. Walking Wake is not bad either though, I just preferer the sketch version.
I figured with the introduction of convergent evolutions in the series that paradox Pokémon were just that. They're supposed to be convergent evolutions from the past or future times, but without a canon answer we just have to play the fun theory game! 😅
I think pokemon scarlet/violet it self is a paradox. You have a schools that occupy the same spot in space and time. The story follows the same flow regardless of game and while yes this has been done before in games like sapphire/ruby. This gen focuses on pokemon that we already for but from different times
I’m really glad you brought up the fact that they’re called imagined pokemon because it seems that people love to ignore that part of the book and immediately call them real, which only makes people upset when that Pokémon doesn’t end up being real, plus seeing all the dumb theories about the hybrids was super cringe knowing that the game itself called them fake
My theory on walking wake is that it's an ancestor of Eevee, since I believe the 3 pokemon who died in the burning of the tower were a vaporeon, flareon, and jolteon. So when ho-oh revived them, the vaporeon's dna fused with ho-oh's power and effectively evolved vaporeon into a form that resmbled walking wake
Walking Wake isn't the first example of the "origin" of the legendary beasts being put into question. Entei has multiple pokedex entries about it being born when volcanoes form. I think Ho-oh just revived the three pokemon into it's trio. Each trio has a trio master and Ho-oh is the master of the legendary beasts. We already know there are at least two separate canonical versions of the three anyway so it's likely that there are multiple of all of them and Ho-oh realistically just revived those three into pre-existing pokemon that it already had dominion over anyway.
i knew this from the beginning
them being called paradox pokemon already tells us they are not what they look like.
also some pokedex entries, prime examples are iron bundle who is actually from the past, and scream tail being from a period where life on land wasnt possible
Okay now I can blame Gen 7 introducing dimensional travel and world's to retcon any and all possibilities from this point forward
Or gamefreak doesnt care about lore
its not that hard to understand mate, they literally retcon lore in EVERY game LMAO
I think the multiverse theory is the most likely though I also think that, especially with the past Pokémon, they could be examples of convergent evolution, it’s a sort of big but very underused thing introduced this generation
My opinion is that it’s a Pokemon who is a lizard who died and was revived by a previous form of Ho-Oh as it’s kinda like a pheonix so it would be the same one kinda
Personally I always thought that the fossil Pokemon were corrupted in a sense. They all are part rock type and I always figured that is is probably very unlikely to fully restore the fossils. Like in sword and shield where two different fossils were used to make one pokemon.
And Ho-oh was said to have revived the three pokemon that died in the tower fire, but the three also represent the lightning strike, fire, and rain that happened that day so the beasts are also technically corrupted DNA like the fossil Pokemon
And if those are the cases, the paradox forms in Scarlet could be something similar. DNA getting corrupted from the "time travel"
And if the drawings for the scarlet paradox amalgam of the beasts is a premonition, what if it is just a common ancestor or the pokemon that died in the fire of the tower? As there are real life animals that have had ancestors with other animals despite them being completely different.
This is a nice concept
It could be a case of the' walking wake' Pokémon were a species at one point but went extinct and ho oh merely modelled swecone and the rest of the legendary beasts after these prehistoric Pokémon.
I hope that the Unown appear somewhere in the DLC.
Either as actually obtainable, OR as just the carvings/language.
My head canon is that Walking Wake is a creature from the ancient past that Ho-Oh thought was cool and reincarnated a dead dog to look like it but more calm.
Me who immediately thought that this is the same as the last 2 games with wormholes in gen 7 and Eternatus being a minster called back to the galaxy region after being banished
We’ve seen that there are multiple Entei, Suicune and Raikou. I reckon they are a legendary species created by Ho-oh and the creatures that died in the fire were elevated to become one of these legendary beasts. So they might not necessarily be the progenitors.
…Or the answer is right in our face - it’s a paradox.
The "time machine" is quite mysterious in-game and there is nothing that tells us it pulls from our timeline, or even a real "timeline" at all. I think that's very deliberate.
The second I saw the Leopard's ancestor being a raptor-Dragon, the more I begun supporting the Dream-Creation theory.
I'm stoked cause even if its not a fusion it probably means we'll get raids for paradoxes of the remaining 4 legendaries to tide us over till the DLC
I like to think that walking wake was what suicune looked like before the tower burnd down and that its species was going extinct and ho-oh revived walking wake in to the suicune of today
I agree all the way
it feels like a massive throwback to the dream machine from gen 5 where any pokemon can end up manifested
The very definition of “Paradox” is “absurd and self-contradictory” so having ancient magnets or futuristic robotic organisms is exactly that. The multi dimensional/ universe theory makes the most sense.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Time Machine” is just a 3D printer that takes sketches of Pokémon in the Scarlet & Violet book(s), and then creates them, with the most similar, present day Pokémon as the base. That’s the only thing that makes sense with the Future Paradox mons’ existences. I mean, we know more about fossil Pokémon than we do these things. We even know that Mega Aerodactyl is what’s believed to be its prehistoric form, but outside of Heath’s sketches, there’s nothing definitive about the Past Paradox Pokémon, and the pokedex’s passages don’t help either.
Terapagos is probably a wish granting Pokémon very similar to Jirachi. Whatever wish one has when they go to it, or better put whatever “Treasure” they seek, this machine hooked up to Terapagos will allow that wish to become realized. Once a user’s ideal is met, the machine can be used to save a preset for the future. That’s the answer to the treasure that awaits in Area Zero, a wish granting Pokémon, that I’d assume Sada/Turo captured and forcibly hooked up to the machine to grant their every wish, just to say their research had been a success.
Well if Ho-Oh created them from the memory of three specific pokemon who died in the tower, couldn't one of them have been what the descendant of Walking Wake became, and when Ho-Oh created them in their legendary beast form Ho-Oh tried to maintain their original form to the best of their memory, creating Suicune, Raikou, and Entei in the forms that we know and love, technically as new pokemon, yet inspired by beings that Ho-oh had encountered? Which would leave both the Legend of Ho-Oh and time traveling pokemon theory intact?
Granted the multi-verse theory is a cool thought too.
I don't think Walking Wake breaks the lore at all. Suicune didn't come into existence at the burned tower, it was revived and reborn as a Legendary. People speculate it was from a Vaporeon but that's only ever been speculation. It could very well have had the same appearance before being reborn as a legendary and therefore would have prehistoric ancestors. That being said, I do kind of hope these are imaginary Pokémon, because while the past Paradoxes are cool, Pokémon from the past could definitely be done so much better. If they don't turn out to be actual past Pokémon then it means it's possible for the idea of past Pokémon to actually be revisited later down the line and we could get more interesting stuff out of it. I saw fanart of a theropod Fearow once and I wish past Pokémon were more along those lines
I've always believed that things like the paradox Pokemon and the legendarys in the crown tundra were formed from the minds and wills of humans plus infinity energy which is why multiple of the same legendary Pokemon are forming later on in the timeline as people hear of story's about big mythical beast from forren lands awakening.
Also I think legendarys like the three z's from galar, the original dragon, the tapus, and other similar Pokemon that seem to embody or represent the peoples will of the people there could have been formed from the same process as protectors or gods of the land they originate from, this is pretty much the only way I could explain Pokemon like hoopa,shaymn, and celabi who don't seem to be tied to creation of stuff like groudon, dialga, or zygard who are literally forces who did important things in creating the Pokemon world.
That was a lot to take in
People are kinda up in arms about Walking Wake and Iron Leaves not looking like the sketches in-game. All these theories and speculation as to why, but i’m willing to bet that the actual explanation is more mundane: I bet that the two paradox sketches were just concept art that they repurposed and the final designs are just tweaks from those designs, not meant to be exact duplicates. Just kind of a nod to it, not anything meant to be read into too closely. But, this is the internet, and we need content, so here we are. That said, keep it coming!
I think this ancestor isn't an ancestor of suicune, but a descendant of the dog before suicune. Ho-oh wanted it to resemble what it used to look like, but also what it did look like, that's my take
I like to think doctor who has a good explanation: changing the past changes the future, and changing the future alters the past to fit that futrure.
I saw a theory that said that the three current legendary dogs could have been any sort of pokemon and Ho-oh's power turned them into dogs. So it makes sense that all 3 could be dragon type and turned into what they are now
My guess is that they are convergent Pokémon from the past and future that’s why we got convergent Pokémon of the present like clodsire it’s just a coincidence
Well, Clodsire is a divergent specie, since it evolves from a regional Wooper variant. I think you meant to say Wiglett or Toedscool.
Maybe some other paradox legendary pokemon (like paradox Ho-oh) created Walking Wake?
Here’s my idea
Sure we could assume the time machine is also a multiverse machine but if we assume if this IS the past form of suicune it’s possible that we simply now know the answer to the legend. Most like to believe the Pokémon that died were the og eeveelutions but walking wake could prove that suicune, entei, and raiko were just there own thing until resurrection
finally, a theory that isn't
its aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall your imagination
As a counterpoint to whether or not Suicune having a "prehistoric" form invalidates the Ho-Oh legend, I must reiterate the alternative theory that Paradox Pokémon are NOT from the actual past or future, but rather they are from alternate universe versions of the present that exist at different stages of advancement. They are like more extreme versions of we saw with Opelucid City in Black/White, same exact location, but one retro and the other sci-fi depending on which game.
Basically, Paradox Pokémon are just more Ultra Beasts as first seen in Sun/Moon, but from alternate realities closely parallel to the main one.
Pokemon already is confirmed to exist in a multiverse, otherwise characters like Anabel falling through dimensions into the Sun/Moon timeline via ultra wormholes wouldn't make sense, so I am inclined to believe that both Terapagos and the time machine by extension are not reaching into our character's world's own timeline, but alternate timelines that would fulfill the wishes of those exploring Area Zero.
Turo/Sada wished to see future/past pokemon respectively and hence the "time machine" brought what they imagined were those future/past pokemon by accessing alternative dimensions where such pokemon were possible. Perhaps a more correct way to say it isn't a "time machine" but instead a traversal device for breaching into alternative worlds. It just appears to be a time machine because it is tunneling into what appears to be a past or future to the professors and the term time machine is far easier for the general public to understand what is going on.
This would also explain the event at the Crystal Pool and avoid the bootstrap temporal paradox. It isn't our version of the professors that we met and gave the version exclusive books to; or gave them the idea of building an AI replica of themselves and told them Miraidon/Koraidon's name, but an alternate version of the professors that had not yet done so in their version of the world. It just so happened that in our world, our version of the professor also traveled to and met an alternate version of ourselves who gave them their copy of the book. This may simply have been a fixed point in time where our character and their alternative selves all gave a version of the book to the next universe's version of the professors (a canon event, to borrow a term from the Spider-verse movies).
That truly is an amazing theory and does explain why the paradox pokemon are the way they are. But if that's the case what would that mean for the Ultra Wormholes and the Ultra Beasts and how would they fit with this?
It would effectively make Paradox Pokémon into Ultra Beasts. The reason why Beast Balls don't work on them, then, is because either they aren't accessed through an actual Ultra Wormhole, or because the universes accessed by Sada's/Turo's machine are not accessible via Ultra Space and so lack the same kind of energy.
@FonVegen I like that reasoning, I guess it really does depend on how they appear.
I like to think that the trio we know isn’t the first time ho-oh has done this, and walking wake is one of the earliest examples of ho-oh performing this miracle
I like the multiverse theory. I mean it explains why they are just called “paradox pokemon” because their existence poses a paradox, which is also why they aren’t called past & future pokemon.
Although it would have been cool to see prehistoric/past versions of Pokémon that fit in with the timeline. We’ve seen a handful in legends arceus, we could’ve gotten the past forms of the fossils. And for the violet future forms we could’ve gotten more biological evolutions of Pokémon. Perhaps playing with the idea of selective breeding or seeing the impact humans have on pokemon (not just them as robots)
I just assume its like, a *very* far future where all life is synthetic and robot-y
“One of a kind legends” that’s explicitly deconfirmed
-Entei’s pokedex entry: A Pokémon that races across the land. It is said that one is born every time a new volcano appears.
That is not something you write about a one-of-a-kind Pokemon
Besides, trainers have legendary beasts that are not the same one from the Burned Tower, like Spenser’s Entei or Anabel’s Suicune.
And if you take the anime into account, there have been at least four different Suicine in the series, all of which are separate entities
Ho-oh resurrected 3 pokemon, the rest are all natural-born, meaning it is perfectly possible for Walking Wake to be a direct ancestor of the Suicune species, and there is no need for an alternate past to explain it away
Don't forget that guy who had a heatran
I think that the past paradox Pokémon are completely unrelated to their lookalikes, just like how Wiglett and Diglett look the same. A dinosaur wouldn’t evolve into a mushroom. It makes sense that they were introduced in the same generation as convergent evolution.
What I find a little odd is these pokemon appearing through tera raids. While it makes sense from an event perspective, I'm pretty sure they are the only paradox pokemon so far to appear in a tera raid.
I think one person suggested it’s not a time machine, but some kind of gene splicer. No one has gone through the “time machine” to prove what actually happens. I guess the Ho-oh legend could just be “a legend” but that would be lame and you’d have to answer how various legendary Pokémon were able to breed for so long (to evolve/adapt) and become extinct despite being so powerful. With the legend, it’s easy. They were reborn and fairly new to the world, not thousands or millions of years old.
The multiverse theory is good. Ultrabeasts come from another dimension or universe too
It's confirmed that the dream world is a place you can go to. Get pokemon and items from. I'm starting to think it's just an upgraded Dream machine.
The truth is, we've all seen that horrifying pikachu animatronic at the pokemon presents. It takes place in that pikachus dreams
Now THAT'S a theory I can get behind...
What about convergent evolution? SV introduces Wiglett and Toedscool, pokemon that resemble diglett and tentacool, but aren't actually related and belong to radically different taxonomies. Walking Wake could just be one more example of this phenomenon, and not have anything to do with Suicune.
I got a theory: the paradox Pokémon wandered in to the crater as regular Pokémon, and got pulled through space-time, to the prehistoric past, and far future. They had to adapt to the new environment they were exposed to, but do to them not meant to be in those time periods, whatever got Sada and Truro to build the time machine wanted to fix whatever paradox came from the adventure. They didn't think of the environmental consequences that could happen.
All this doesn't make sense As The Time machine had been Turned off at end of the games
I understand Your theory but this question just bothers me
What if some the balls they were using got lost and accidentally went to a different point in time? Could explain how heath found the donphan
my problem initially was that it was implied that the burning tower in my eyes happened recently in the original gold and silver, not a billion years. so when I found out there was a paradox suicune i was hoping it'd be a future form so that it would make sense to me, but when I saw it was a past form I figured it'd have to be a multiverse thing
I can’t actually remember if the ho-oh reviving pokemon was actually confirmed but if it isn’t that means the what happened could have been exaggerated. For example ho-oh could have saved the 3 dogs from near death after the tower burned down. That would also explain there being more than just the ones found in jhoto.
Here's my theory. Walking Wake is in fact the INSPIRATION for Ho-Oh's Suicune. Legendaries are not exactly confirmed to die of old age, so Ho-Oh COULD have known of this Pokemon before the age of Hisui.
I mean it IS an immortal phoenix so...
@@chonflis3834 Exactly.