I had a Steinway and a Bechstein; I sold both, for different reasons, but regretted only the Bechstein. In this video, a similar situation occurs: the Steinway is OK but does not touch me profoundly, whereas the Bechstein really makes me cry.
I am sorry to hear that you had to part ways with your Steinway and Bechstein pianos. I certainly agree with your sentiment about C. Bechstein pianos. They are some of the most expressive and emotionally stimulating pianos you will ever play!
Did you sell a NY Steinway or a Hamburg Steinway ? I found German Steinways are very similar to Beckstein K Series but just a bit more superior in many different areas.
The C. Bechstein sounds better because it’s brand new. I’m sure a direct comparison between two brand new pianos would have been different. Stu really swings. I’m waiting for the drums and double bass to kick in…..😊great playing. One day, before I die, I’ll have one of these pianos in my drawing room….
Great comparison video, thanks for posting! And wonderful playing, as usual. The thing is, Steinway supplies more than 70% of the world's major concert venues and music conservatories with instruments. So many (if not most) classical concert pianists will prefer to practice on the instrument they will most likely be giving public performances on. Here the Bechstein would seem to offer more in terms of responsiveness, range of sonority and gradations of tone. But very often the more technically accomplished product does not always command the market share its superior achievements might seem to suggest it should. Both wonderful instruments though. I've never had the opportunity to play on a modern Bechstein, but now this video has me dying to do so! For the record, the most completely satisfying instrument I've been fortunate enough to perform on so far was a 9' Fazioli concert grand. It was so razor sharp yet at the same time buttery smooth in its action that the keys almost seemed to read my mind through my fingertips. A truly rewarding and deeply musical experience.
Played on both pianos, if I have to choose, I'd go with the C Bechstein B 212. Although I didn't play both side by side, as I did at two different dealers, both are exceptional instruments. But the finishing on the B212 did look better than the Model B, and also, I felt the lower bass and upper treble did give me a more satisfying experience. But I have to admit, Model B's mids sounded just a little bit better, not by much, but what sealed the deal was the bass. It's sad that I couldn't afford to buy neither of them, and I ended up buying a Zimmermann Z185, but it's still a wonderful experience to have played on both pianos.
I played both. They are excellent instruments. I bought Steinway B directly from Astoria factory after selecting it myself 13 years ago and play classical repertoire 3 h /day. Get it tuned/serviced every 3 months. I do not like comparisons, I find both pianos superb.
Congratulations on your beautiful Steinway B! I definitely agree with your sentiment that these are both extraordinary pianos! They just simply offer a different flavour musically. Thanks for tuning in and all the best! :)
Notwithstanding the exquisite pianos, this video taught me more about pianos than 25 years of playing. This was surprisingly well put together and a nuanced neutral comparison. Personally if I had the $164,000 to spare I would be the new owner of a B212. Fantastic pianos.
Hi Jonathan - really glad you enjoyed the review, and thanks for the comments. Much appreciated, and I hope you'll subscribe and join us for some more videos! - Stu
Merriam Music ditto! Stu you are very talented and entertaining in your videos , but also informative. Kudos . I’m from America but have family in oakville Canada, if I’m there I will pay a visit to see the show room!
@@JitinMisra That song is "Blame It on My Youth" by Oscar Levant. I guess Stuart plays an adaptation of the interpretion by Keith Jarrett on the album "The Melody, At Night With You". A truly great song.
superb playing! A collage of my all time heroes Bill Evans + Oscar Peterson with notable classical influences. Everytime I level up in my musical ability, thinking the way to the top has just gotten shorter, I hear such a monster, setting me directly to the starting point, beginner...beginner with attitude.
I had a Steinway B - ( NY made) - and it never could hold its tuning - I traded it in for a NEW C. Bechestein Concert Grand - what a world of difference - C. Bechestein blows away the Steinway completely !
Well isn't that odd , every Steinway I have played has been lovely...played many a Bechestein and haven't been impressed, maybe they were bad examples? .....One big name I'd never wish to play is a Bluthner...utter shite. I learnt to play on a John Broadword . And I will say it again...the very best piano I ever played was Kawai upright in Farlingaye High School in Woodbridge UK......What I need in a piano is sustain and an easy action.....Steinway and Yamaha makes a poor player sound good....we don't need an instrument to play against. So.....aghast...I like playing my Roland Juno DS through an Eventide Reverb.....put that in yer pipe!
Love the comments here. I'm not surprised to hear that you've had a hit-and-miss experience with Bechstein's...the company, and the piano designs, have gone through major changes over the last 30 years. Virtually all the pianos from the last 5 years has been sensational (I'd highlight the re-issue of the Concert 8, the A190, A124, and all of the Concert-level grands...just awesome stuff), and there are a few models that they were nailing really well all through the 90's and 2000's. I'm a big Kawai fan as it sounds like you are as well, but my Steinway experiences have definitely been 'mixed'. I've played a few model M, B, and D's that have been total delights to play, and my experiences on L/A/O (and the S's particularly) have been underwhelming. I'd say the A's and B's have given me the biggest range of experiences, from the very good to the utterly forgettable. Although back to Phil's comment, I've never experienced tuning issues that bad on a fresh factory Steinway. But on repinned instruments, definitely. Thanks for watching / commenting!! - Stu
@@MerriamPianos Brilliant channel sir! We no longer have a good piano manufactuter in the UK so all our pianos have been round the world, love those little Kawai's though. Thanks mate!
@@iseeolly9959 Horowitz began his career on Bluthner grands. When he settled in the US he made do with New York Steinways, but to th end of his life, he confided that he still missed the bluthners of his youth.
With such a relatively long video, I thought I’d be skipping around to the “good parts” but the entire video was the good part. Didn’t skip once. Fantastic video. As a Yamaha C7 owner, I’ve never personally fallen under the Steinway spell. My college was a Steinway school and as incredible as they truly are, I never personally felt inspired. It did everything I needed it to perfectly, yet lacked something. I didn’t know what that something was until I played a C. Bechstein. These pianos are tied first place with Bosendorfer in my eyes, perfect instruments. and I hope to one day own one. But for now my C7 is my pride and joy!
That is an incredible compliment and one that we sincerely appreciate! I know Stu appreciates the kind words as well. I am happy to hear that you've found a piano that you truly connect with in the Yamaha C7. With that said, I certainly share your thoughts and feelings regarding the C. Bechstein instruments. They are truly special instruments that are in a league of their own when it comes to expressivity and musical potential. Thanks again and happy playing! :)
So hard to tell which one is better. For sure I can hear they sound different, I love both of these. Steinway is more so soo warm. It just melts. Beautiful harmonics and resonance. Bechstein on the other hand is more punchy and tasty as hell. Can I have both?
Fantastic review both the pianos are class in a part and world class quality. Steinway has beautiful clean sound in a middle and treble area it’s has very sweet sound but somehow it’s little thin character that’s what I feel and Steinway sound is more suitable for classical music and it’s always a Steinway’s trademark. C. Bachstien has little punchy and very melodies boom and it has some really good mellow character in tone where Steinway is missing that character and very importantly this particular Bachstien piano has very good lows specially from middle C to lower note and sound is more versatile. I personally like the sound of C. Bachstien. Very well balance comparison you did it. Thank you so much 😊
Great informative video and beautiful lyrical renditions of Bllame It On My Youth(Steinway B) and Waltz For Debbie ( Bechstein). The Bechstein Tone and balanced dynamic range with a brighter treble tone was a revelation to me who has only owned Steinways (1886 Steinway 54 inch grand upright and Steinway L circa 1930. I recently purchased pianotek pro which gives me access to the Bechstein Grand, Steienway B,And D.
This was just what I needed to see for I have been considering trading my Steinway B, which I love, for a Bechstein C 234, which I have not yet tried out. This will require hours of driving, but now I will do it! The Steinway in the video sounds just like mine, so I trust that the mikes clearly represent both pianos. It was great that you started off by explaining your mike set-up. Finally, I know why my Steinway is so lovely in the treble and base. I had my technician install hand wound base strings that make the base roar and recommend them highly to anyone with a Steinway B.
Interesting comparison. I did the same when I bought a new grand a couple years ago. And I decided for: Bechstein 😎 Never regreted that decision. Lesson: Dont go for the suposedly bigger brand. Go for the sound! Trust your ears!
Double correction: the treble bell does NOT "compress and amplify frequencies" nor does it jam any energy into the rim of the piano. It's there to stop the plate from vibrating too much in the treble. A vibrating plate absorbs energy from the strings, energy that's better used going through the bridge and into the soundboard. Many of the early american pianos had weak treble sustain and the treble "bell" was the not so sophisticated quick fix. But it works! Brilliantly!
I was searching for this. My ears pricked up at that statement too. Thanks for correcting him here. The bell also has an adjustment screw to increase or decrease tension on the plate to modify the effects
There is a Bechstein Store next to where i am living. I must say that Bechstein is the best Piano brand in my opinion. All the Bechstein Concert and Academy grands are just awesome - and the prize is really fair
I think he was careful on the C. Bechstein to stay in the center portion of the keyboard. I would have liked to hear the highs and lows because other Bechsteins I have heard seem really sparkly in the highs. But what he played both pianos sounded beautiful.
Another thing worth mentioning is Bechstein’s reputation was unduly damaged thanks to WWI; with them being a German company they where barrred from selling their pianos in some foreign countries most notably the U.K. where Bechstein once boasted the largest piano showroom in Europe alongside Bechstein hall that they built now know as Wigmore hall. I argue they have never been able to make up for that massive loss of market. Steinway being American didn’t suffer the same fate
Thomas Wilkinson great point. (WWII didn’t help much either). Really could argue that only within the last 10 years or so is the company achieving a similar share of the top-tier market, having produced and sold close to 6000 pianos in Europe in 2018. Wigmore hall is worth the visit! Thanks for the insights! -Stu
Indeed they are having something of revival, it’s good to see. Yes indeed it is Wigmore hall itself if going through a similar revival I’m fortunate that I’m based in London.
Hi Stu, I would like to compliment you on an excellent video, especially from the construction perspective, many musicians don't care they just want to play. As is the case in my home, my wife plays the piano and I can't play a note. However I have been listening for 20 years and do notice the slight difference that each piano has. Construction and craftsmanship are very important to me, especially when you reach this price level . 2 years ago I was fortunate to finally upgrade her piano to a Steinway "B" , I also arranged the factory selection as a surprise . Although you have people tell you, it was amazing how each of the 5 pianos she played was different, even for someone like me who can't play. So what I have learned from all these piano comparisons on UA-cam is there are helpful to your search, but it is "The Piano" you sit down and play, is the one you will have to evaluate there and then on its own. And if it fits your style and personalty, that is the one to buy. Great job. Cheers, Les From Calgary
I think you bring up an important point the outcome of the construction of an acoustic piano is not entirely predictable. They say it takes a year to complete a Steinway B.
Absolutely. Sometimes I say don't get too hung up with the name on the fallboard or side of the piano. Some pianos just have a certain something that others don't have. Same make, some model, same vintage, but different results. And it's not just Steinway and also true of the "consistent" brands.
I love Steinways, but the problem I have with the B is the transition between the bass bridge and the treble bridge. The lowest F on the treble bridge often has a nasal quality Thant is impossible to voice out, so the break can be jarring instead of smooth. I think that a few notes on the treble bridge should have wrapped strings.
I noticed that too. I recently bought a restored 1965 Steinway B which I'm very happy with - the sound of the instrument is very beautiful - but I asked my tuner/technician why that F at the bottom of the treble bridge sounds "off". I described it as "clunky". He said that Steinway B's always have that clunky sounding F and it can't be voiced to match the sound quality of the adjacent notes.
Thanks for covering the bell, our new Steinway B just broken a high b flat string, three days after its third tuning. Now only the bell sounds on this note, and only when this note is struck, it sounds like a meditation bowl, it is quite loud.
You're very welcome! I'm sorry to hear that your Model B broke a string, but I hope that everything gets resolved satisfactorily. Thanks so much for tuning in and happy playing! :)
In the D-class (280cm) there are some Steinways that are marvels and sound better than the equally large Bechsteins. It is a pity not all D-Steinways sound that great. However, the B-Class Bechstein wins usually in sounding larger than a B-Steinway. This may not be an advantage in a small establishment, but in larger rooms, I would always use the Bechsteins. The average used models also sound better than the used Steinways when they did not use proper technicians to keep them in top shape. I also found some Steingraeber & Sons B Grands playing in the same league.
I find most B-Class Bechsteins a little lacking in resonance but otherwise amazing. However it is also not easy to find a NY Steinway B that is any good, and the blame starts with the technicians in the NY factory - they know which are simply rich people's furniture and which are the real musical instruments.
Of course, Steinway dominated the western market and almost every legendary piano record were made o a Steinway. Doesn't mean they're the very best, but that you're more familiar with it.
Bechstein certainly. The sound is just a tad warmer and richer. The Steinway still sounds well crafted though, but in the smallest finesse I always found them sounding a tad too klingy, bit too sharp, a touch colder compared to Bechs. However, as usual with instruments, all is a matter of personal taste. However, I do feel that Steinway has lost its edge; too much quality inconsistencies lately and heaving trouble to at least keep up with tone excellence at the highest mark.
The reason that Bechstein doesn't make a big deal out of the fact that their wood source is the same as that Stradivarius used is because it doesn't friggin' matter. Stradivarius was the beneficiary of a drought that occurred some time before he was active as a luthier that made the annual rings packed tightly in the wood with which he was working. Unless there was a drought back in the 70s/80s/90s, when the trees they are harvesting now were growing ... then it doesn't really help Bechstein.
My understanding is the wood is somewhat of a myth although I would have to agree than denser more tightly spaced rings would make sense. Strads got their tone because the maker knew how to make each individual instrument resonate by carefully scraping away wood from the inside of the top and the back with a small scraper about the size of a quarter or 50 cent piece. The sound post and bridge shape are also factors in the tone. None of this is done on grand pianos as far as I know. They are generally big heavy beasts. Bechstein looks to be on the heavy weight side.
The songs of the Dryad Oesiate Nymphs, denizens of the boreal forests, that migrate according to Pleiadian cycles, not only influence the precipitation, and morphic resonance of microbes, but also the harmonic resonance imbued in the timber, and thus timbre, destined for acoustic recreations. Encyclopaedia Loremipsum (fun nonsense)
Thanks so much for tuning in! We certainly have a lot of different musical initiatives happening at our locations, which always makes things fun and exciting! :)
Thank you for this very explicit and concise explanation of how these 2 pianos are built including the woods used to achieve the sound they decided to produce. Personally, I like the Bechstein better though all the pianos played in Los Angeles are Steinway.
You're very welcome! We're so glad you enjoyed the video. I concur with your sentiments about the Bechstein B212! It truly is a stunning instrument with unparalleled musicality in my opinion. :)
I very much enjoy listening to the reviews but wish you would play something slower so we can hear the added sustain and color that you talk about. I know the Steinway sound very well, I'm sure most people do. I played Bechsteins 20 years ago and found they had a very sharp attack, little color to the sound and were extremely bright all of which I didn't like. It sounds like possibly all of that has recently been engineered away but there's no way I can hear it when you play fast pieces. I'm not criticizing, just saying it would be so much better if we had the time to 'savor' individual notes while playing slower pieces.
Thanks for such an informative and detailed comparison, not to mention the beautiful playing. I listened with headphones and noticed an issue with the mix that I'm afraid disadvantages the Steinway and negates much of the comparison: The Steinway appears to have been inadvertently mixed to mono, while the Bechstein is in full stereo. I double checked this using a phase scope, which confirmed what I was hearing. It's more than just a matter of stereo image, since the non-coincident stereo technique can cause phasing issues when stereo sources are mixed to mono. If by chance you still have the source material, maybe you could post an accurate comparison? Regardless, thanks again for this in-depth look at two beautifully crafted instruments.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in! We're glad you enjoyed the comparison video. :) In terms of recording, I would have to check with the audio/video production team to see how the Steinway was captured. Usually, a pair of stereo condensers are used on each piano and they are mixed in full stereo.
@@MerriamPianos Hi Brent, thanks for your reply. It does appear that something went wrong in this case, as the Steinway is definitely in mono. I could send you images from a phase scope if you'd like, though you should hear it right away if you listen with headphones especially. Unfortunately this means that this isn't an accurate comparison, although some of the tonal qualities do come through even in mono. Would love to hear a comparison that does justice to both of these beautiful instruments. Incidentally, I recently had the opportunity to play the latest Bechstein models, including this B 212 and the concert grand, at the new Bechstein Center in Vienna, with its newly renovated Ehrbar Hall where artists including Brahms, Mahler and Schoenberg performed.
For me, the Bechstein sound is too clear... It seems it was designed to present every frequency with equal "clarity" which to me, comes across as a digital piano. You get every note of a chord instead of the sound of the notes of the chord blending together. Steinways have a "sound" to them, perfect imperfections that shine a light on certain frequencies that create an interaction between the notes of a chord that in turn, creates a new sound or texture. Another way to look at it is Bechstein has taken the constraints or limits off of the piano so that you the musician can have full say over the texture you create. Which I'm sure works for some. I'd just prefer to be in a "relationship" that is give and take. Where the piano and I set healthy boundaries to shape the music "we" create together.
Stu, I have played on a Steinway B, Bosendorfer VC and S Kawai, M Hamlin, Bluthner, Yamaha CFX, Boston and many others. Steinway was the 2nd best out of that named group behind the Bosendorfer VC. That Bosendorfer played like and sounded like warm melted honey whipped butter. But recently I got to play on a Schimmel K220 in the same showroom as the Bosendorfer... The Steinway made music, the Schimmel made magic. The way that it played and sounded is like no instrument I have ever heard. It played strings of the heart more than it's steel and copper strings. It's hard to put into words. The Schimmel was more everything than the Steinway. My heart was set previously on the Estonia L210 just based on reviews and listening to recordings of it but I cannot find a dealer close enough to try one and hearing them separately doesn't help much. I can't compare the K219 I played from a L210 on the internet compared to a C. Bechstien somewhere else. So far Stu, you are the only one that has all three pianos. I have gotten far with reviews and playing them myself, traveling hours to play on specific instruments but now I am stuck, narrowed down to the last three as they are nowhere near me without getting on a plane. I would like to play a Estonia L210 and a C. Bechstien B 212 and Schimmel K219. There are no comparisons between these three anywhere online. I have seen you review all these three separately, but could you do a comparison of them side by side? I am looking to narrow this down for my world class HD film and music scoring studio I am building right now. I would appreciate it so much. I will buy them from you if you could do this when the studio is done. And if you could play some Debussy on them that would be fantastic.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for reaching out! The Schimmel Konzert series grands are truly extraordinary instruments. They are a bit of a dark horse amongst the premium handcrafted grands, but you are certainly not the first player to be absolutely blown away with what that line of pianos offers. :) In terms of your request, we do not have an Estonia L219 at the moment. We have a Schimmel K219 at our Toronto showroom and a C. Bechstein B212 at our Oakville showroom. With that said, at the current time, it is not possible to complete a comparison video of all three. If we do receive an Estonia L219 in stock, it may be possible to facilitate the comparison for you. I will be sure to put in a request for that video with our production team. We will do our best to tackle it for you. With that said, feel free to reach out directly to us with any questions. We have some amazing piano experts on our staff that can fill in some gaps and help answer any questions you have about these models and how they differ musically.
@@MerriamPianos Thank you for the quick reply! I messed up all the model numbers. I corrected them Estonia L210, Schimmel K219 and C Bechstien 212. Yes I might need to call and talk over the differences with some pros. Any Koncert series Schimmel against any Concert C Bechstien and any recent Estonia after 2004 I think would work for the video. That will be awesome thank you. I can't wait to hear their nuances.
I take offense to the veiled hint that Bechstein instruments of the late 1970's and early 1980's were less than first rate. Presumably Schulze has drummed all this info into your head.
Hey studentjohn36 - I've never met the man or had any contact with Mr. Schulze, but thanks for the perspective on this. I can see that you've got an extensive musical background as well as direct experience with Bechstein's yourself. I've played several Bechstein's from that era, and my opinion was genuinely that the newer product was more musically enjoyable for me. For the record, all of these vids are based on my opinions and mine alone, and I'm never told what to say in any of these videos, paid to take any position, or which pianos to review. But I obviously hit a nerve here, and I'd be genuinely interested to hear your opinion on what you enjoyed more about those instruments, either musically speaking, or from a design/technical perspective. Thanks John. -Stu
@@MerriamPianos The first Bechstein ever in Merriam (a loan from Hans Moeller, 1901-1995) had agraffes all the way to the top note. It was one of the traits that made Bechstein first rate. Their concert grands had a stiffening torsion bar going in the opposite of Steinway's, as Bosendorfer still does today on the model 290. But all has been discarded with the the move to Sefhennersdorf. All in the same of increased sales, IMHO
@@studentjohn35 There's a lot of hype when it comes to piano sales. Long term stability may be the most important factor. I know all the Yamaha's in the Denver University practice rooms are more or less crap. They don't age well, or at least didn't.
Blame it on My Youth! Keith! Perhaps the greatest mystery ( to me of course), is the fact that 99% of classical pianists and jazz pianists I love, over the last 70 years at least, choose Steinway over any other brand, since many of them have the opportunity to play other instruments. I love my Steinway and have played on most of the other top end brands ( Bechstein included). Steinway is not "better". Perhaps there's an element of "imbalance", or "imperfection", but similar to the nature of our own bodies. The overly neat, perfectly "symmetrical" sound, like a shinny store display, loses its apparent charm over a short period of time. Here the Bechstein has sparkles right on your face, with that ultra resolution image, too clinical for my taste. The Steinway has that vintage warmth from old photography, but also with sparkles. Definitely a matter of taste.
It would have been more useful if you had played exactly the same music on both, one directly after the other. The technical stuff was very interesting.
From my experience, the older Bechstein's had it, the newer ones do not. One thing about the "B", is the dynamic headroom and its ability to resist sounding clogged up or crowded with sound. This becomes more obvious when playing some of the more complex musical forms even into Bartok and Ligeti. You have the feeling that you shape the tones and they emerge from a dark open backdrop. In this ability Steinway always has excelled and being that there has not been a substantial change as to scaling or structure of their larger grands, one can argue that something that is not broken doesn't really gain from fixing. IMO, newer Bechsteins start to approach the always colored sound of Yamahas, in other words that aggressive bite of color exists not as a way to creatively shade and define phrasing, harmonic change but is more an uncontrollable component of the sound of the instrument.
I agree with your commentary. Clarity of the piano sound is paramount. A lot goes into it. The geometry of the plate and bass bridge. The scaling of the strings, which has to do with the wire diameter and wire wrap diameter at any given point in the scale. For my budget, and playing level, I'm happy with Pianoteq modeled piano voices.
If the newer Bechstein doesnt have "it", what is left for Steinway? I mean, they're relying on marketing and name for decades and their quality declined considerable since 1950. Bechstein, otherwise, having highs and lows, always invested more in innovating and improvement with newer technologies
@@Thiago-px9ev That's not true at all. The major problem with Steinway is the new off the floor the pianos are in a very raw state of voicing. They usually sound mediocre with only a few showing the openness and orchestral qualities they are capable of. With the proper prep they are outstanding as they always were. There is a 20 yr dead area in the 60's and 70's s when Steinway used inferior action parts known as the teflon era and even the plate refinements were suffering. As far as the scale of the piano, all original designs which have made obvious the slogan, "if it isn't broken, then don't fix it. I own two steinway grands, one a 1919 Hamburg B which was recently 4 years ago completely restored by a company called Faust Harrison, using what I believe is the finest soundboard in the world, the Bolduc. This piano has it all. A range of color, immense dynamics and a transparency one seldom finds . I recently bought an L New York vintage 1986 for a practice and teaching studio which was unused to the extent all the action parts looked new, the soundboard perfect crown with slight signs of compression ridges which likely existed when it was first made. Again, outstanding quality which took a 4 hour in house regulation and voicing to bring it up to the highest standard. The clarity and openness sounds like a much larger piano. The dynamics and ability to use color , is what I find to be a trademark in Steinway. Again present in the L.
@@gregs3580 My university bought a 2012(I believe) NY Steinway D and that thing simply can't stay in tune for more than a few months, Im not talking just about tone, although I do prefer pure european tones anyday. Obviously, Steinway is an amazing brand and has all the merits but I just dont feel "that way" about their instruments, specially today. I find Steinway rather boring to be honest, obviously I wouldn't mind at all having one for free, but if it was my money, I would not invest in one.
@@Thiago-px9ev I tune each of my pianos every 4 months. 4 months is a long time for any piano to maintain pitch let alone deal with seasonal changes. My B remains in relative tuning meaning unisons and intervals are maintained but will drop a few cents overall. It is important for any good piano to maintain a 440 center as this affects the overall down bearing and helps keep the crown. A "D" would show more vulnerability to these changes because of the overall length of the strings and the different ratios of area before and behind the bridge. My B which is a Hamburg , I chose the NY hammers because of what I feel is a more velvet, higher dynamic range. Now Steinway won't like me for this, but for value and even quality, I find a rebuild handled by a top notch restorer to often surpass the original.
The Steinway Model B is my favorite of their entire line. Don't get me wrong, the D is a beast, and I enjoy playing on a well-prepped and -maintained Model D when I get the chance, but they're just too big for the average home. Even the B is pushing it, but anything smaller starts sacrificing bass resonance and tone. I've unfortunately never had an opportunity to try out any Bechstein piano, but what I've heard in various recordings I've been very impressed by.
Hi! Brent here! That is a very good point! Sometimes, bigger is not necessarily better, especially when it comes to pianos occupying certain spaces or contexts. For instance, I personally love the C. Bechstein A192 model. Don't get me wrong, the B212 is beyond incredible and certainly the better option for larger spaces and musical settings. But, there is a certain balance and low-end response/tightness to the A192 that really resonates with me.
You're knowledge is incredible... You are a treasure to the piano industry... And ... You play beautifully. Thank you for sharing.. And creating these wonderfully educational And entertaining videos.
I think when it come to this level of craftsmanship then it's a matter of personal taste. I prefer the Bechstein, being the owner of pre-war 'old bones' one. It's difficult to compare when acoustics of environment, microphone setup, and pieces played are not consistent. And I wonder how the lives of the people involved in the design and building of the instruments differ. Do the artisans retire to their homes and listen to classical music, jazz etc, read good literature, and pursue further education and skills? It known in artistry that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Bechstein gana por calidad, profundidad, entonación, claridad del sonido, timbre de bajos, medios y agudos, y ese inconfundible sonido de "campanadas" que sólo Bechstein tiene. Por supuesto que Steinway tiene bien ganadas sus estrellas, es un piano superlativo y nadie se lo niega, pero entiendo que el marketing ha ayudado demasiado a Steinway & Sons contra otras marcas. Por ejemplo, Bösendorfer es claramente superior a Steinway en toda línea, pero tiene menos publicidad. Saludos cordiales y gracias por el video.
I can't disagree with your sentiments about the C. Bechstein sound. It is a near perfect tone in my opinion! However, it is important to note that tonal preferences are a deeply subjective matter. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder at the end of the day. :)
Sounds like Stu (with others commenting here) respects the Steinways, but he LOVES the Bechsteins! I read that there was a terrible windstorm in the Val di Fiemme in 2018 that felled a number of trees and, because of all the dead wood lying about, exacerbated the problem of bark beetles. I’m wondering what the impact of these factors has been (and will be) on the cost and quality of instruments that have been using Val di Fiemme wood.
Hi! Brent here! Steinway and C. Bechstein both make some of the finest instruments in the world! With that said, it really comes down to a matter of personal preference. Both of these pianos offer different musical flavours. In terms of the windstorms in the Val di Fiemme forests, I did read about that, but, so far, it does not seem to have had any bearing on the price points or quality of the Bechstein Concert pianos in anyway. :)
By playing the same program material on both pianos would have helped make the comparison a bit easier, in my humble opinion.Having played both of these models it comes down to which one you prefer. Either is an excellent choice. That being said, I’ would choose the Sty B every time because of its sound and playability, in addition to its scale design and diaphragmatic soundboard. Thank you for a great demo. 🎹
@@allanreiter4088 All that has gone away and now the NY Steinways look very similar to the Hamburgs with rounded cheeks, veneer inside the rim, music desk style, almost everything.
Hello Stu from Manchester in England, Thank you so much for all your amazing reviews and demonstrations on your channel from concert grands to digital pianos all of which you give respect and due consideration to. Like many who have commented here I too learned a lot from your commentary and I conclude that building a piano is a compromise and that you have to chose what your priorities are, e.g. mid-tone clarity, blending all tones across the key range or having separation between the registers like Bosendorfer does etc. Can you give us your view on the wide tail design employed by Bostons and Feurichs? Clearly, that design allows for longer bass strings and a bigger sound board relative to the length of the piano but if these were without attendant drawbacks why doesn't Steinway and all Tier 1 manufacturers employ the design? I think I read somewhere that the design causes issues with bass overtones but I would be interested in your view. Also, whilst we're here can you also add your '2 penneth' to the debate about sand-cast vs vacuum mould plates? I read a lot about this including from acoustic engineers and metallurgists and my conclusion is as follows: Neither process adds or detracts anything material or noticeable to the sound of the piano. The acoustic contribution of the plate is negligible compared to the other components such as the soundboard, the rim, the bridge, the strings etc and the different resonances of the 2 metals could each be argued to be one better than the other. The reason that high end pianos are sand-cast is that the set-up costs of the vacuum process is much higher so savings are only made where high volumes are being made. Thus, the Yamaha CX series is vacuum moulded whereas the CF series are sand-cast - because they have very limited numbers so not economic to set up vacuum processes for them. It's nothing to do with sand-cast being 'better'. A salesman in London told me how, on a tour, the Yamaha rep demonstrated how if you bang a sand-cast piece of metal with a hammer is rings longer and clearer than the same that was vacuum moulded which showed how sand-cast is superior for making plates! I found that hilarious by the way! Anyway, your opinions and responses would be valued and for the record I own the best piano in the world! It’s way better than any other piano in the world because I bought it with my own money so yah boo to anyone who suggests that I could have bought something better thereby invalidating my buying decisions! Those folks over in Shelbyville are idiots and not to be trusted! :-) Keep up the good work Stu and if I'm ever in Ontario I will be sure to come in and visit your fantastic store. Ian
The piano tech in Seattle who rebuilt a great old Mason & Hamlin for Cornish institute patiently explained a couple of ideas regarding piano construction strategies. RIP. My understanding is that the primary function of the rim in a Steinway ISN'T to vibrate along with the soundboard. That's why it's made of dense Rock Mapel. It's purpose is to eject or project said vibration into the air as acoustical energy. This combined with Steinways thinner but higher crowned soundboard creates a schizophrenic instrument one who's charming tone is only distantly related to it's ecstatic high energy bombastic tone. Ah pianists like this! Pretty much mopping up it's more polite European brothers. Maybe before this Bechstein at least.. The other American powerhouse is Mason & Hamlin Chickering was goody too once upon a time in the West. But I'm listening hard to you brother.
Paxwallacejazz...was that tech in Seattle named Frank Morgan? Frank was the go to tech up there back in the 1950-90s His sight was impaired, but he had golden ears and was a stellar tech who was on-call at all the music venues, including all the pianos at Seattle U and Univ of Washington. He was also Oscar Peterson's on-call tuner whenever he came to Seattle to play. At the intermission of every concert, he had Frank do a mini-tune-touch-up.
My take away from this video besides the great information is how ironic it is that it's 2 major piano makers who have access to the same type of spruce used in Stradivari instruments of olde. Not the many luthiers today making violins and cello's. Let me know (anyone) if you know of any luthiers who DO. Had I the funds it would likely be either a Bluthner or C. Bechstein. :) Over a Steinway (3rd chocie)..or a Shimmel K230 if I can get past the fact that Pearl River owns majority shares so they can be called the "parent company". Still made in Germany. So ti is still technically a German piano company. The concern is what Pearl River will do as the managing company...good or bad over time.
Such nice playing!!! It would be very interesting to hear a Sauter. Although it is a smaller piano I am very interested in the Sauter Delta 185. I'm so super impressed with the build and tonal quality of my Sauter upright I play that more often than my very decent sounding 1920 Steinway M. The control Steinway yields over pianists through "Steinway Artists" seems so very manipulative. At least with Dave Brubeck (Baldwin) and Chick Corea (Yamaha) it seemed like their hands weren't as forced to play those instruments. Although, I still would've listened to them play on a tin can.
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your insights! Sauter is not a line that we carry currently, so it may be a bit difficult to tackle a review/comparison video. However, we do periodically get some interesting used instruments come through our inventory. Thanks for the suggestion! We will do our best to tackle a review/comparison. :)
Bechstein's oversimplification :" lighter hardwood requires less energy to get vibrating" Corrolary : Once lighter wood is vibrating it has less inertia than heavier wood and will stop vibrating sooner.
One thing I have to disagree with. He said multiple times that Steinway is known for their "clarity." I think it's actually very well the opposite. Many people I know, and myself included, have commented on Steinway's almost muffled sound. A colleague of mine once told me that a student of his said Steinway grands sound like they have a blanket covered over them and he told the student that's just how Steinway sounds, and I have to agree with them. Maybe the B in this video is an exception, but Steinway Bs and Ds in general, while having a warm tone and that beefy Steinway sound, are most definitely NOT known for their "clarity."
@DrDLL99 I don't think of clarity and brightness as being the same. To me, clarity is how well all of the different notes being played stand out, in other words can you hear the individual notes and do they harmonize nicely, or do they blend into a less intelligible mush? One of the key factors here is the degree of inharmonicity, an area where Steinway pianos perform better than average. Brightness/dullness can be addressed by voicing, but I have to say I've never heard a Steinway that sounds muffled, so I'm surprised at your comment.
@@marianneoelund2940 I'm definitely inclined to agree with you. I found DR.DLL's comments odd, but have encountered old Steinways which were pretty bad.
I partially agree that the NY B recording was not as sharp as it could be. Nevertheless, when I hosted an adult amateur sonata recital for 10 advanced amateurs a year ago with my 20 yo Hamburg B and new CB B in my home, I politely asked two of my friends who played on the Steinway and go back to re-play a specific movement on the new CB. We had a discussion afterward on the many differences (action, tone ...). It seemed everyone was unanimous in the feeling that the Steinway had a clearer tone. But whether it was Grieg or more so Debussy, there was more "color" or robust beauty with the Bechstein. In another recital, an old friend played a Bach Cantata transcription on the Bechstein and we heard the color of the SATB voices (Soprano-Alto-Tenor-Bass) come through. It motivated me to go back and learn a 3-4 part Bach fugue with a coaching lesson on voicing. Hard work, but worth it for the result on the Bechstein.
In the Steinway's defense every piano is an individual instrument and is very much dependent on who's been taking care of it. It's just not like comparing automobiles.
That is certainly true and I know Stu has commented on this in other videos. There tends to be more disparity between different Steinway specimens of the same model compared to C. Bechstein. C. Bechstein Concert pianos tend to be very consistent. Depending on one's philosophy, there are possible pros and cons to both situations. Some people find the individuality of a given instrument to be a very romantic notion, whereas other people prefer the musical experience provided by the instrument that is brought to their home to be as consistent as possible with the floor model they played at the showroom.
The C. Bechstein's (like the B212 in this video) is Red Spruce from the Val Di Fieme in Italy. It's a very rare variety of spruce, and the same type and source location that Stradivarius Violins use (that's what made it famous). Fazioli also uses it, although Fazioli doesn't manufacture the boards themselves, whereas Bechstein makes all of their own soundboards. Thanks for the question! - Stu
Thankyou very very much beautiful description in video nobody could do it better you really have talent to describe music I listened to it twice. Well done you are a genius speaker 💖💖💖
Sorry, what you said is false. At FAZIOLI we make every single soundboard by ourselves, using the red spruce from Val di Fiemme since 1980 (other piano makers came after us). We write from the FAZIOLI factory, Sacile, Italy.
@@FazioliPianos Hi Fazioli, greetings from Toronto. So for our information then, this document is no longer correct? www.ciresafiemme.it/images/pdf/Lett.%20Refer.%20ing.FAZIOLI%2001.2009.pdf
@@MerriamPianos, Actually the user didn’t ask you a question about the FAZIOLI soundboards. You were supposed to reply concerning the brand you represent. Therefore, the correct document to be posted is: www.ciresafiemme.it/images/pdf/Lettera%20Bechstein%20referenza%201.2009.pdf Regarding our letter dated 2009, that was written as a reference for Ciresa as a trustworthy supplier. In the letter we do not state that we use Ciresa soundboards on all our pianos. In any case, we do not owe any explanation: we would rather invite you to speak about the brand you represent, in order not to spread wrong information to users interested on pianos.
We are a Bechstein dealer, but we also have many used Steinway pianos come through our showrooms. Both of these giants of the industry produce incredible instruments. It really comes down to the tonal and musical preferences of the player. In either case, one will be playing on a truly beautiful piano. :)
Permit me to apply to these elite pianos some physics I understand for violins. Lower harmonics carry better in a concert hall full of people. Higher harmonics are absorbed easier by clothes, hair etc. So instruments designed for big concert halls must be overloaded with high harmonics to sound balanced to the audience after serious high harmonic absorbion by the audience. This is not necessarily the most pleasing sound to someone as close to the instrument as the musician. Likewise, violins in international violin making competitions can win when played in a room, but loose when up against a full orchestra. Piano manufacturers have 84 more strings than a violin, and a complex mechanical action, but the general target markets for both are similar. It has been found that the frequency spacing (delta) between the violin A1 cavity mode and the B1 body mode is critical to the overall tone and playing qualities, indicating whether a violin is suitable for: ■soloists (delta 60-80 Hz) = bright powerful big hall sound and wide dynamic range & hard to play well ■orchestra players (delta 40-60 Hz) = toned down a bit from soloist level, but good power and richness ■chamber music players (delta 20-40 Hz) = nobody sticking out with power over the small team, but very rich complementary resonances facilitate listening to each other ■student violins with delta below 20 Hz are easy to play but lack power (Hutchins 1989). If we ignore the violin specific details, the same 4 broad target markets for pianos apply, plus we add accompanyist for singers, instrumentalists, choirs, jazz ensembles. Manufaturers strive for balance between massive high harmonics, sound cutting through an orchestra, great power, rich intimate resonances, sweatness. Each piano maker is designing models & sizes for specific target markets. Recording pianos close up mainly tests for a more intimate chamber music quality. I love the evaluations of the many models and try to imagine the target markets attracted by each model.
Thanks for sharing your insights about the violin! It is a very good point that, sometimes, the ideal tone for a specific room, context, or musical setting is not the sound that would be most enjoyed by the player. Another example of this is recording a piano as part of an ensemble arrangement. While the pianist's desired tone might be a lush, warm voice, because there are other instruments occupying the low and low-mid frequency space (i.e. bass, guitar, etc.), this can create muddiness. A brighter piano tone with some of those lower frequency bands rolled off are likely to "sit" better in a mix. Thanks so much once again and all the best! :)
The Hamburg Steinways are certainly a different animal musically than the New York Steinways. With that said, these are all wonderful piano brands that offer immense musical capability. It ultimately comes down to a matter of personal musical taste. :)
NY Steinways are known to be inconsistent in quality of sound, especially in recent decades, but some NY Steinways are magnificent. The Steinway B in this video is not one of them. I own a 1965 Steinway B that has a much more beautiful tone quality than this one. In this comparison the Bechstein sound is more beautiful.
Hi! Brent here! That is certainly true! I have played some incredible New York Steinway pianos too. But, when purchasing a new boxed instrument, consistency can be an important consideration. The C. Bechstein pianos are very impressive in that regard. The precision and consistency is virtually unparalleled.
Hands down Steinway! What a rich tone. The Bechstein reminded me a lot of Schimmel. My favorite European piano so far is Estonia. Of course, August Forster are awesome as well.
Many people say the same, Estonia pianos are sooo underrated and are excellent pianos. Have never heard one live but many times in UA-cam. Is Schinmel a good brand since you compared C.Bechstein to one of those?
@@keithcitizen4855 An old Russian piano teacher I met at the Kapell piano competition once told me that she always traded up to "previously owned" and well maintained or refurbished pianos, probably for significantly less.
@@JoeLinux2000 Craftsmanship is a dying art. Students now aim for IT. Even poor Bechstein who in recent years got many of it technicians from the CZ Republic are finding it difficult to replace them. Charles University had a instrument manufacturing college 20 years ago. It's gone. Finally, these pianos if maintained, I do believe could last for 2-3 generations. My Hamburg B is now 20 yo and better than ever. Cavaliere Fazioli told me that his grands are built to last at least 3 generations and after a tour of his factory, I believe him.
One can look up the technical details of each instrument online at their respective manufacturer's websites... I'd like to HEAR the same pieces and the same playing on each instrument. I don't feel this was a good comparison. "Synchron Stage Vienna" did a much better comparison of pianos. I play, and would never buy a piano sight unseen or on someone's recommendation. Both are excellent pianos depending on what you'd like to play on them most often. I presonsally prefer the Yamaha Schimmel and Estonia pianos. They're all solid and reliable like a Toyota... walk up to one to play it, and you know what you're going to get.
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your feedback. I certainly agree that playing a piano in person is always the best way to determine which instrument you truly connect with. However, we have many piano shoppers that live in remote places with no access to a piano showroom. We try to ensure that our viewers get both a technical education of the instruments as well as a demonstration of what they offer musically.
Yea the Bechstein is the clear winner in this comparison - much more colourful, even taking into account the curtains behind the Steinway. This particular NY Steinway B is clearly a wooden, mediocre one - far from the best NY Steinway B you can buy.
@@JoeLinux2000 Listening on my Mac with Bose headphones, there was a night & day fullness (creaminess?) of sound on the CB B. Still a hint of clarity on the NY B, but in spite of the special microphone effort I wonder haw the final recording was saved to UA-cam. Sometimes room placement makes a difference. But the impressions provided good representations to my (IMHO) ears.
After listening to 19th century pianos this steinway has steep decay of notes. The sound dies so fast, it does not sing. it sounds like amplified pin drops. This is reversal of technology from the 19th century to the 20th and 21st. Someday the classic world will have to stop denial and accept that piano manufacturing has strayed in the wrong directions, prioritizing ego, power at the detriment of the arts, the real artist (composer+performer) not the interpreter pianist, and esthetics,
All this speech and yet concert grand from the 1880 beat anything made today and by far. The problem is wrong needs are being articulated that do not serve the musical arts, instead power machines are made, that all look ridiculously the same and more ugly than even midrange 19th century pianos. The best music came from 19th century pianos and earlier, and it has been a desert every since Steinway and their cast iron frame ruined the piano sound and all others with them. Someone has to start a company that makes exact reproduction of the best 1880 pianos and throw all that false improvement tech pushed by Steinway to the trash where it belongs.
I dunno....the Bluthner's that I have played are shite, such a heavy action, Yamaha and Steinway have never failed to impress. I haven't played Bechstein for 10 years but have never been that impressed with the sustain. Bosendorfer are awful, I don't need to hit keys that hard! I can't provide documentary evidence but some Kawai uprights I have played are brilliant. So: If you have the space ...Yamaha or Steinway...if not then a Kawai. If you need a small digital then Roland Juno DS88 and download the patch "Classical" from the Axial website. All you need to know from after 40 years of piano playing !....I learnt by playing a John Broadwood which was OK, nothing special.
The rim of a piano is not supposed to be a source of sound. All the energy of the strings are supposed to go to the soundboard and any energy that goes elsewhere on a piano is energy lost. The analogy is that of a common stereo speaker wherein the rim is typically a heavy metal affair supporting the paper (or other material) that the sound energy emanates from. The rim should be inert, completely…..never vibrating since, again, any energy that goes to the supporting structure is energy lost in the primary component of sound……the speaker diaphragm. A piano is the same. The rim of a Steinway is made of hard maple laminated both the inner and outer rim so as to make it as inert and dead as a sound absorber as possible so as to confine the sound energy to the soundboard and ribs.…..the idea that different wood species in the rim somehow adding to the difference in tone, in my opinion, is a false narrative. Having said that……I loved your discussion.😊😊 This in no way takes away the incredible clarity and beauty of the Bechstein piano.
Thank you for tuning in! We're glad you enjoyed the video. Also, thank you for the very articulate and well-thought out insights. :) I certainly understand your reasoning and points. To that point, it is interesting that some companies, such as Bechstein, design rim constructions with very specific ply thicknesses of various tone woods. I suppose the only way to truly put things to the test is to have two of the exact same overall piano designs (utilizing the same materials aside from the rim), but take the two different approaches to rim construction. At the end of the day, I suppose it does not matter how much a particular component or design detail contributes to the overall sonic experience an instrument provides, as it is the overall musical experience an instrument provides and its emotional impact on the player that matter most. Thanks so much once again for your wonderful insights! :)
As a registered piano technician with 40+ years in the trenches I find it amusing to see marketing attempts to get a leg-up on the competition that are somewhat, if not wildly, absurd. I like the plate casting with the label “made with bell metal” as if anyone would want a piano to have a bell ringing in the background…..or anywhere in the sound mix or otherwise. Other marketing attempts, like the famous ‘Storytone Soundboard’ of the Story and Clarke is a good example of marketing lines that were used as a tool to sell a piano. So….in my opinion, any part of a piano case, leg, music rack, rim, or lid that vibrates, is nothing more than acoustic energy diverted from the soundboard where it is needed……..in the soundboard of course.
I had a Steinway and a Bechstein; I sold both, for different reasons, but regretted only the Bechstein. In this video, a similar situation occurs: the Steinway is OK but does not touch me profoundly, whereas the Bechstein really makes me cry.
I am sorry to hear that you had to part ways with your Steinway and Bechstein pianos. I certainly agree with your sentiment about C. Bechstein pianos. They are some of the most expressive and emotionally stimulating pianos you will ever play!
Did you sell a NY Steinway or a Hamburg Steinway ? I found German Steinways are very similar to Beckstein K Series but just a bit more superior in many different areas.
The C. Bechstein sounds better because it’s brand new. I’m sure a direct comparison between two brand new pianos would have been different.
Stu really swings. I’m waiting for the drums and double bass to kick in…..😊great playing. One day, before I die, I’ll have one of these pianos in my drawing room….
Great comparison video, thanks for posting! And wonderful playing, as usual. The thing is, Steinway supplies more than 70% of the world's major concert venues and music conservatories with instruments. So many (if not most) classical concert pianists will prefer to practice on the instrument they will most likely be giving public performances on. Here the Bechstein would seem to offer more in terms of responsiveness, range of sonority and gradations of tone. But very often the more technically accomplished product does not always command the market share its superior achievements might seem to suggest it should. Both wonderful instruments though. I've never had the opportunity to play on a modern Bechstein, but now this video has me dying to do so! For the record, the most completely satisfying instrument I've been fortunate enough to perform on so far was a 9' Fazioli concert grand. It was so razor sharp yet at the same time buttery smooth in its action that the keys almost seemed to read my mind through my fingertips. A truly rewarding and deeply musical experience.
Played on both pianos, if I have to choose, I'd go with the C Bechstein B 212.
Although I didn't play both side by side, as I did at two different dealers, both are exceptional instruments. But the finishing on the B212 did look better than the Model B, and also, I felt the lower bass and upper treble did give me a more satisfying experience. But I have to admit, Model B's mids sounded just a little bit better, not by much, but what sealed the deal was the bass.
It's sad that I couldn't afford to buy neither of them, and I ended up buying a Zimmermann Z185, but it's still a wonderful experience to have played on both pianos.
I played both. They are excellent instruments. I bought Steinway B directly from Astoria factory after selecting it myself 13 years ago and play classical repertoire 3 h /day. Get it tuned/serviced every 3 months.
I do not like comparisons, I find both pianos superb.
Congratulations on your beautiful Steinway B! I definitely agree with your sentiment that these are both extraordinary pianos! They just simply offer a different flavour musically. Thanks for tuning in and all the best! :)
Watching this was like watching 'Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous' - will never be able to afford it but I keep watching :)
Bechstein wins in that case. Great sound !
Notwithstanding the exquisite pianos, this video taught me more about pianos than 25 years of playing. This was surprisingly well put together and a nuanced neutral comparison.
Personally if I had the $164,000 to spare I would be the new owner of a B212. Fantastic pianos.
Hi Jonathan - really glad you enjoyed the review, and thanks for the comments. Much appreciated, and I hope you'll subscribe and join us for some more videos! - Stu
Merriam Music ditto! Stu you are very talented and entertaining in your videos , but also informative. Kudos . I’m from America but have family in oakville Canada, if I’m there I will pay a visit to see the show room!
Merriam Music what are you playing at 13:58? Sounds so cooooool
@@JitinMisra its higher ground by stevie wonder
@@JitinMisra That song is "Blame It on My Youth" by Oscar Levant. I guess Stuart plays an adaptation of the interpretion by Keith Jarrett on the album "The Melody, At Night With You". A truly great song.
superb playing!
A collage of my all time heroes Bill Evans + Oscar Peterson with notable classical influences.
Everytime I level up in my musical ability, thinking the way to the top has just gotten shorter, I hear such a monster,
setting me directly to the starting point, beginner...beginner with attitude.
I had a Steinway B - ( NY made) - and it never could hold its tuning - I traded it in for a NEW C. Bechestein Concert Grand - what a world of difference - C. Bechestein blows away the Steinway completely !
Well isn't that odd , every Steinway I have played has been lovely...played many a Bechestein and haven't been impressed, maybe they were bad examples? .....One big name I'd never wish to play is a Bluthner...utter shite. I learnt to play on a John Broadword . And I will say it again...the very best piano I ever played was Kawai upright in Farlingaye High School in Woodbridge UK......What I need in a piano is sustain and an easy action.....Steinway and Yamaha makes a poor player sound good....we don't need an instrument to play against. So.....aghast...I like playing my Roland Juno DS through an Eventide Reverb.....put that in yer pipe!
Love the comments here. I'm not surprised to hear that you've had a hit-and-miss experience with Bechstein's...the company, and the piano designs, have gone through major changes over the last 30 years. Virtually all the pianos from the last 5 years has been sensational (I'd highlight the re-issue of the Concert 8, the A190, A124, and all of the Concert-level grands...just awesome stuff), and there are a few models that they were nailing really well all through the 90's and 2000's. I'm a big Kawai fan as it sounds like you are as well, but my Steinway experiences have definitely been 'mixed'. I've played a few model M, B, and D's that have been total delights to play, and my experiences on L/A/O (and the S's particularly) have been underwhelming. I'd say the A's and B's have given me the biggest range of experiences, from the very good to the utterly forgettable. Although back to Phil's comment, I've never experienced tuning issues that bad on a fresh factory Steinway. But on repinned instruments, definitely. Thanks for watching / commenting!! - Stu
@@MerriamPianos Brilliant channel sir! We no longer have a good piano manufactuter in the UK so all our pianos have been round the world, love those little Kawai's though. Thanks mate!
@@iseeolly9959 Horowitz began his career on Bluthner grands. When he settled in the US he made do with New York Steinways, but to th end of his life, he confided that he still missed the bluthners of his youth.
Lots of Bluthners in Russia, my teacher old pictures when she was still living there, Bluthners everywhere
With such a relatively long video, I thought I’d be skipping around to the “good parts” but the entire video was the good part. Didn’t skip once. Fantastic video. As a Yamaha C7 owner, I’ve never personally fallen under the Steinway spell. My college was a Steinway school and as incredible as they truly are, I never personally felt inspired. It did everything I needed it to perfectly, yet lacked something. I didn’t know what that something was until I played a C. Bechstein. These pianos are tied first place with Bosendorfer in my eyes, perfect instruments. and I hope to one day own one. But for now my C7 is my pride and joy!
That is an incredible compliment and one that we sincerely appreciate! I know Stu appreciates the kind words as well. I am happy to hear that you've found a piano that you truly connect with in the Yamaha C7. With that said, I certainly share your thoughts and feelings regarding the C. Bechstein instruments. They are truly special instruments that are in a league of their own when it comes to expressivity and musical potential. Thanks again and happy playing! :)
So hard to tell which one is better. For sure I can hear they sound different, I love both of these. Steinway is more so soo warm. It just melts. Beautiful harmonics and resonance. Bechstein on the other hand is more punchy and tasty as hell. Can I have both?
Fantastic review both the pianos are class in a part and world class quality. Steinway has beautiful clean sound in a middle and treble area it’s has very sweet sound but somehow it’s little thin character that’s what I feel and Steinway sound is more suitable for classical music and it’s always a Steinway’s trademark. C. Bachstien has little punchy and very melodies boom and it has some really good mellow character in tone where Steinway is missing that character and very importantly this particular Bachstien piano has very good lows specially from middle C to lower note and sound is more versatile. I personally like the sound of C. Bachstien. Very well balance comparison you did it.
Thank you so much 😊
This Bechstein sound is outstanding
You know do you lol
Great informative video and beautiful lyrical renditions of Bllame It On My Youth(Steinway B) and Waltz For Debbie ( Bechstein). The Bechstein Tone and balanced dynamic range with a brighter treble tone was a revelation to me who has only owned Steinways (1886 Steinway 54 inch grand upright and Steinway L circa 1930. I recently purchased pianotek pro which gives me access to the Bechstein Grand, Steienway B,And D.
I was thinking the same thing-“Blame it on My Youth” is magnificent, not necessarily a tune to play to show how the instrument behaves! Beautiful!
This was just what I needed to see for I have been considering trading my Steinway B, which I love, for a Bechstein C 234, which I have not yet tried out. This will require hours of driving, but now I will do it! The Steinway in the video sounds just like mine, so I trust that the mikes clearly represent both pianos. It was great that you started off by explaining your mike set-up. Finally, I know why my Steinway is so lovely in the treble and base. I had my technician install hand wound base strings that make the base roar and recommend them highly to anyone with a Steinway B.
Great playing. I didn’t realise how talented you are until I saw the grand piano playing 👍
Interesting comparison. I did the same when I bought a new grand a couple years ago. And I decided for: Bechstein 😎 Never regreted that decision. Lesson: Dont go for the suposedly bigger brand. Go for the sound! Trust your ears!
Double correction: the treble bell does NOT "compress and amplify frequencies" nor does it jam any energy into the rim of the piano. It's there to stop the plate from vibrating too much in the treble. A vibrating plate absorbs energy from the strings, energy that's better used going through the bridge and into the soundboard. Many of the early american pianos had weak treble sustain and the treble "bell" was the not so sophisticated quick fix. But it works! Brilliantly!
I was searching for this. My ears pricked up at that statement too. Thanks for correcting him here. The bell also has an adjustment screw to increase or decrease tension on the plate to modify the effects
@@BauerHouse Yes, you are correct! Steingraeber also uses bracing in the treble, though without a bell shaped object and they achieve the same result.
There is a Bechstein Store next to where i am living. I must say that Bechstein is the best Piano brand in my opinion. All the Bechstein Concert and Academy grands are just awesome - and the prize is really fair
No the prize is not fair lol...
Yeh 150 grand is really good price for the average American to buy... It's a steal.
Stu your videos are college course caliber. Many thanks for the wealth of information you offer so generously.
I think he was careful on the C. Bechstein to stay in the center portion of the keyboard. I would have liked to hear the highs and lows because other Bechsteins I have heard seem really sparkly in the highs. But what he played both pianos sounded beautiful.
Another thing worth mentioning is Bechstein’s reputation was unduly damaged thanks to WWI; with them being a German company they where barrred from selling their pianos in some foreign countries most notably the U.K. where Bechstein once boasted the largest piano showroom in Europe alongside Bechstein hall that they built now know as Wigmore hall. I argue they have never been able to make up for that massive loss of market.
Steinway being American didn’t suffer the same fate
Thomas Wilkinson great point. (WWII didn’t help much either). Really could argue that only within the last 10 years or so is the company achieving a similar share of the top-tier market, having produced and sold close to 6000 pianos in Europe in 2018. Wigmore hall is worth the visit! Thanks for the insights! -Stu
Indeed they are having something of revival, it’s good to see. Yes indeed it is Wigmore hall itself if going through a similar revival I’m fortunate that I’m based in London.
Hi Stu,
I would like to compliment you on an excellent video, especially from the construction perspective, many musicians don't care they just want to play. As is the case in my home, my wife plays the piano and I can't play a note. However I have been listening for 20 years and do notice the slight difference that each piano has. Construction and craftsmanship are very important to me, especially when you reach this price level .
2 years ago I was fortunate to finally upgrade her piano to a Steinway "B" , I also arranged the factory selection as a surprise .
Although you have people tell you, it was amazing how each of the 5 pianos she played was different, even for someone like me who can't play.
So what I have learned from all these piano comparisons on UA-cam is there are helpful to your search, but it is "The Piano" you sit down and play, is the one you will have to evaluate there and then on its own. And if it fits your style and personalty, that is the one to buy.
Great job.
Cheers, Les
From Calgary
I think you bring up an important point the outcome of the construction of an acoustic piano is not entirely predictable. They say it takes a year to complete a Steinway B.
Absolutely. Sometimes I say don't get too hung up with the name on the fallboard or side of the piano. Some pianos just have a certain something that others don't have. Same make, some model, same vintage, but different results. And it's not just Steinway and also true of the "consistent" brands.
Its Majesty: Carl Bechstein, of course!
recorded with a stone...great ear
I love Steinways, but the problem I have with the B is the transition between the bass bridge and the treble bridge. The lowest F on the treble bridge often has a nasal quality Thant is impossible to voice out, so the break can be jarring instead of smooth. I think that a few notes on the treble bridge should have wrapped strings.
I noticed that too. I recently bought a restored 1965 Steinway B which I'm very happy with - the sound of the instrument is very beautiful - but I asked my tuner/technician why that F at the bottom of the treble bridge sounds "off". I described it as "clunky". He said that Steinway B's always have that clunky sounding F and it can't be voiced to match the sound quality of the adjacent notes.
Thanks for covering the bell, our new Steinway B just broken a high b flat string, three days after its third tuning. Now only the bell sounds on this note, and only when this note is struck, it sounds like a meditation bowl, it is quite loud.
You're very welcome! I'm sorry to hear that your Model B broke a string, but I hope that everything gets resolved satisfactorily. Thanks so much for tuning in and happy playing! :)
In the D-class (280cm) there are some Steinways that are marvels and sound better than the equally large Bechsteins. It is a pity not all D-Steinways sound that great. However, the B-Class Bechstein wins usually in sounding larger than a B-Steinway. This may not be an advantage in a small establishment, but in larger rooms, I would always use the Bechsteins. The average used models also sound better than the used Steinways when they did not use proper technicians to keep them in top shape. I also found some Steingraeber & Sons B Grands playing in the same league.
I find most B-Class Bechsteins a little lacking in resonance but otherwise amazing. However it is also not easy to find a NY Steinway B that is any good, and the blame starts with the technicians in the NY factory - they know which are simply rich people's furniture and which are the real musical instruments.
Love the bechstein but there’s something about the Steinway tone that’s just very classic. It’s what I think of when I think piano
Of course, Steinway dominated the western market and almost every legendary piano record were made o a Steinway. Doesn't mean they're the very best, but that you're more familiar with it.
Bechstein certainly. The sound is just a tad warmer and richer. The Steinway still sounds well crafted though, but in the smallest finesse I always found them sounding a tad too klingy, bit too sharp, a touch colder compared to Bechs. However, as usual with instruments, all is a matter of personal taste. However, I do feel that Steinway has lost its edge; too much quality inconsistencies lately and heaving trouble to at least keep up with tone excellence at the highest mark.
Such a shame this channel gets so few views. You should hire a video editor, no piano enthusiast in the world will miss your contents
great that you carefully discribed the mic-setup! Thank you!
You're very welcome!
The reason that Bechstein doesn't make a big deal out of the fact that their wood source is the same as that Stradivarius used is because it doesn't friggin' matter. Stradivarius was the beneficiary of a drought that occurred some time before he was active as a luthier that made the annual rings packed tightly in the wood with which he was working. Unless there was a drought back in the 70s/80s/90s, when the trees they are harvesting now were growing ... then it doesn't really help Bechstein.
My understanding is the wood is somewhat of a myth although I would have to agree than denser more tightly spaced rings would make sense. Strads got their tone because the maker knew how to make each individual instrument resonate by carefully scraping away wood from the inside of the top and the back with a small scraper about the size of a quarter or 50 cent piece. The sound post and bridge shape are also factors in the tone. None of this is done on grand pianos as far as I know. They are generally big heavy beasts. Bechstein looks to be on the heavy weight side.
Nice insight but in addition to ring spacing for violins, I thought that the river transport of the logs also added more porosity by microbial action.
@@JoeLinux2000 there is still a lot of precision shaping ("scraping") on these piano soundboards in addition to crown adjustment, etc.
@@allanreiter4088 I'm sure that's true on the highest quality instruments.
The songs of the Dryad Oesiate Nymphs, denizens of the boreal forests, that migrate according to Pleiadian cycles, not only influence the precipitation, and morphic resonance of microbes, but also the harmonic resonance imbued in the timber, and thus timbre, destined for acoustic recreations. Encyclopaedia Loremipsum (fun nonsense)
I love the beginner lessons in the background. That's definitely a working shop.
Thanks so much for tuning in! We certainly have a lot of different musical initiatives happening at our locations, which always makes things fun and exciting! :)
Would like to see (to hear) additional detailed playing comparison.
What is the name of the song played on the Bechstein?
Thank you for this very explicit and concise explanation of how these 2 pianos are built including the woods used to achieve the sound they decided to produce. Personally, I like the Bechstein better though all the pianos played in Los Angeles are Steinway.
You're very welcome! We're so glad you enjoyed the video. I concur with your sentiments about the Bechstein B212! It truly is a stunning instrument with unparalleled musicality in my opinion. :)
I very much enjoy listening to the reviews but wish you would play something slower so we can hear the added sustain and color that you talk about. I know the Steinway sound very well, I'm sure most people do. I played Bechsteins 20 years ago and found they had a very sharp attack, little color to the sound and were extremely bright all of which I didn't like. It sounds like possibly all of that has recently been engineered away but there's no way I can hear it when you play fast pieces. I'm not criticizing, just saying it would be so much better if we had the time to 'savor' individual notes while playing slower pieces.
Thanks for such an informative and detailed comparison, not to mention the beautiful playing. I listened with headphones and noticed an issue with the mix that I'm afraid disadvantages the Steinway and negates much of the comparison: The Steinway appears to have been inadvertently mixed to mono, while the Bechstein is in full stereo. I double checked this using a phase scope, which confirmed what I was hearing. It's more than just a matter of stereo image, since the non-coincident stereo technique can cause phasing issues when stereo sources are mixed to mono. If by chance you still have the source material, maybe you could post an accurate comparison? Regardless, thanks again for this in-depth look at two beautifully crafted instruments.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in! We're glad you enjoyed the comparison video. :)
In terms of recording, I would have to check with the audio/video production team to see how the Steinway was captured. Usually, a pair of stereo condensers are used on each piano and they are mixed in full stereo.
@@MerriamPianos Hi Brent, thanks for your reply. It does appear that something went wrong in this case, as the Steinway is definitely in mono. I could send you images from a phase scope if you'd like, though you should hear it right away if you listen with headphones especially. Unfortunately this means that this isn't an accurate comparison, although some of the tonal qualities do come through even in mono. Would love to hear a comparison that does justice to both of these beautiful instruments.
Incidentally, I recently had the opportunity to play the latest Bechstein models, including this B 212 and the concert grand, at the new Bechstein Center in Vienna, with its newly renovated Ehrbar Hall where artists including Brahms, Mahler and Schoenberg performed.
For me, the Bechstein sound is too clear... It seems it was designed to present every frequency with equal "clarity" which to me, comes across as a digital piano. You get every note of a chord instead of the sound of the notes of the chord blending together. Steinways have a "sound" to them, perfect imperfections that shine a light on certain frequencies that create an interaction between the notes of a chord that in turn, creates a new sound or texture. Another way to look at it is Bechstein has taken the constraints or limits off of the piano so that you the musician can have full say over the texture you create. Which I'm sure works for some. I'd just prefer to be in a "relationship" that is give and take. Where the piano and I set healthy boundaries to shape the music "we" create together.
Stu, I have played on a Steinway B, Bosendorfer VC and S Kawai, M Hamlin, Bluthner, Yamaha CFX, Boston and many others. Steinway was the 2nd best out of that named group behind the Bosendorfer VC. That Bosendorfer played like and sounded like warm melted honey whipped butter. But recently I got to play on a Schimmel K220 in the same showroom as the Bosendorfer... The Steinway made music, the Schimmel made magic. The way that it played and sounded is like no instrument I have ever heard. It played strings of the heart more than it's steel and copper strings. It's hard to put into words. The Schimmel was more everything than the Steinway. My heart was set previously on the Estonia L210 just based on reviews and listening to recordings of it but I cannot find a dealer close enough to try one and hearing them separately doesn't help much. I can't compare the K219 I played from a L210 on the internet compared to a C. Bechstien somewhere else. So far Stu, you are the only one that has all three pianos. I have gotten far with reviews and playing them myself, traveling hours to play on specific instruments but now I am stuck, narrowed down to the last three as they are nowhere near me without getting on a plane. I would like to play a Estonia L210 and a C. Bechstien B 212 and Schimmel K219. There are no comparisons between these three anywhere online. I have seen you review all these three separately, but could you do a comparison of them side by side? I am looking to narrow this down for my world class HD film and music scoring studio I am building right now. I would appreciate it so much. I will buy them from you if you could do this when the studio is done. And if you could play some Debussy on them that would be fantastic.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for reaching out! The Schimmel Konzert series grands are truly extraordinary instruments. They are a bit of a dark horse amongst the premium handcrafted grands, but you are certainly not the first player to be absolutely blown away with what that line of pianos offers. :)
In terms of your request, we do not have an Estonia L219 at the moment. We have a Schimmel K219 at our Toronto showroom and a C. Bechstein B212 at our Oakville showroom. With that said, at the current time, it is not possible to complete a comparison video of all three. If we do receive an Estonia L219 in stock, it may be possible to facilitate the comparison for you. I will be sure to put in a request for that video with our production team. We will do our best to tackle it for you. With that said, feel free to reach out directly to us with any questions. We have some amazing piano experts on our staff that can fill in some gaps and help answer any questions you have about these models and how they differ musically.
@@MerriamPianos Thank you for the quick reply! I messed up all the model numbers. I corrected them Estonia L210, Schimmel K219 and C Bechstien 212. Yes I might need to call and talk over the differences with some pros. Any Koncert series Schimmel against any Concert C Bechstien and any recent Estonia after 2004 I think would work for the video. That will be awesome thank you. I can't wait to hear their nuances.
I take offense to the veiled hint that Bechstein instruments of the late 1970's and early 1980's were less than first rate. Presumably Schulze has drummed all this info into your head.
Hey studentjohn36 - I've never met the man or had any contact with Mr. Schulze, but thanks for the perspective on this. I can see that you've got an extensive musical background as well as direct experience with Bechstein's yourself. I've played several Bechstein's from that era, and my opinion was genuinely that the newer product was more musically enjoyable for me. For the record, all of these vids are based on my opinions and mine alone, and I'm never told what to say in any of these videos, paid to take any position, or which pianos to review. But I obviously hit a nerve here, and I'd be genuinely interested to hear your opinion on what you enjoyed more about those instruments, either musically speaking, or from a design/technical perspective. Thanks John. -Stu
@@MerriamPianos The first Bechstein ever in Merriam (a loan from Hans Moeller, 1901-1995) had agraffes all the way to the top note. It was one of the traits that made Bechstein first rate. Their concert grands had a stiffening torsion bar going in the opposite of Steinway's, as Bosendorfer still does today on the model 290. But all has been discarded with the the move to Sefhennersdorf. All in the same of increased sales, IMHO
@@studentjohn35 There's a lot of hype when it comes to piano sales. Long term stability may be the most important factor. I know all the Yamaha's in the Denver University practice rooms are more or less crap. They don't age well, or at least didn't.
Incredible piano playing from an amazing musician!! And also a really interesting lesson on how great pianos are made and some history.
Blame it on My Youth! Keith!
Perhaps the greatest mystery ( to me of course), is the fact that 99% of classical pianists and jazz pianists I love, over the last 70 years at least, choose Steinway over any other brand, since many of them have the opportunity to play other instruments. I love my Steinway and have played on most of the other top end brands ( Bechstein included). Steinway is not "better". Perhaps there's an element of "imbalance", or "imperfection", but similar to the nature of our own bodies. The overly neat, perfectly "symmetrical" sound, like a shinny store display, loses its apparent charm over a short period of time. Here the Bechstein has sparkles right on your face, with that ultra resolution image, too clinical for my taste. The Steinway has that vintage warmth from old photography, but also with sparkles. Definitely a matter of taste.
It would have been more useful if you had played exactly the same music on both, one directly after the other. The technical stuff was very interesting.
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your feedback! I will certainly pass it along to our production team.
and btw beautiful playing. I particulary at least for your playing did enjoyed more the Bechstein. Thanks!
Thank you Stu. This is an exceptionally interesting and important video!
Thanks so much for tuning in! We're really happy to hear that you enjoyed this one! :)
From my experience, the older Bechstein's had it, the newer ones do not. One thing about the "B", is the dynamic headroom and its ability to resist sounding clogged up or crowded with sound. This becomes more obvious when playing some of the more complex musical forms even into Bartok and Ligeti. You have the feeling that you shape the tones and they emerge from a dark open backdrop. In this ability Steinway always has excelled and being that there has not been a substantial change as to scaling or structure of their larger grands, one can argue that something that is not broken doesn't really gain from fixing. IMO, newer Bechsteins start to approach the always colored sound of Yamahas, in other words that aggressive bite of color exists not as a way to creatively shade and define phrasing, harmonic change but is more an uncontrollable component of the sound of the instrument.
I agree with your commentary. Clarity of the piano sound is paramount. A lot goes into it. The geometry of the plate and bass bridge. The scaling of the strings, which has to do with the wire diameter and wire wrap diameter at any given point in the scale. For my budget, and playing level, I'm happy with Pianoteq modeled piano voices.
If the newer Bechstein doesnt have "it", what is left for Steinway? I mean, they're relying on marketing and name for decades and their quality declined considerable since 1950. Bechstein, otherwise, having highs and lows, always invested more in innovating and improvement with newer technologies
@@Thiago-px9ev That's not true at all. The major problem with Steinway is the new off the floor the pianos are in a very raw state of voicing. They usually sound mediocre with only a few showing the openness and orchestral qualities they are capable of. With the proper prep they are outstanding as they always were. There is a 20 yr dead area in the 60's and 70's s when Steinway used inferior action parts known as the teflon era and even the plate refinements were suffering. As far as the scale of the piano, all original designs which have made obvious the slogan, "if it isn't broken, then don't fix it.
I own two steinway grands, one a 1919 Hamburg B which was recently 4 years ago completely restored by a company called Faust Harrison, using what I believe is the finest soundboard in the world, the Bolduc. This piano has it all. A range of color, immense dynamics and a transparency one seldom finds .
I recently bought an L New York vintage 1986 for a practice and teaching studio which was unused to the extent all the action parts looked new, the soundboard perfect crown with slight signs of compression ridges which likely existed when it was first made. Again, outstanding quality which took a 4 hour in house regulation and voicing to bring it up to the highest standard. The clarity and openness sounds like a much larger piano. The dynamics and ability to use color , is what I find to be a trademark in Steinway. Again present in the L.
@@gregs3580 My university bought a 2012(I believe) NY Steinway D and that thing simply can't stay in tune for more than a few months, Im not talking just about tone, although I do prefer pure european tones anyday. Obviously, Steinway is an amazing brand and has all the merits but I just dont feel "that way" about their instruments, specially today. I find Steinway rather boring to be honest, obviously I wouldn't mind at all having one for free, but if it was my money, I would not invest in one.
@@Thiago-px9ev I tune each of my pianos every 4 months. 4 months is a long time for any piano to maintain pitch let alone deal with seasonal changes. My B remains in relative tuning meaning unisons and intervals are maintained but will drop a few cents overall. It is important for any good piano to maintain a 440 center as this affects the overall down bearing and helps keep the crown. A "D" would show more vulnerability to these changes because of the overall length of the strings and the different ratios of area before and behind the bridge.
My B which is a Hamburg , I chose the NY hammers because of what I feel is a more velvet, higher dynamic range.
Now Steinway won't like me for this, but for value and even quality, I find a rebuild handled by a top notch restorer to often surpass the original.
The Steinway Model B is my favorite of their entire line. Don't get me wrong, the D is a beast, and I enjoy playing on a well-prepped and -maintained Model D when I get the chance, but they're just too big for the average home. Even the B is pushing it, but anything smaller starts sacrificing bass resonance and tone.
I've unfortunately never had an opportunity to try out any Bechstein piano, but what I've heard in various recordings I've been very impressed by.
Hi! Brent here! That is a very good point! Sometimes, bigger is not necessarily better, especially when it comes to pianos occupying certain spaces or contexts. For instance, I personally love the C. Bechstein A192 model. Don't get me wrong, the B212 is beyond incredible and certainly the better option for larger spaces and musical settings. But, there is a certain balance and low-end response/tightness to the A192 that really resonates with me.
You're knowledge is incredible... You are a treasure to the piano industry... And ... You play beautifully. Thank you for sharing.. And creating these wonderfully educational And entertaining videos.
Stu is amazing and we're lucky to have his immense knowledge and talent! Thanks for tuning in! I will certainly pass on your kind words to him. :)
Waltz for Debbie how fitting Bill shoulda had time on that instrument.
First review of many I see where the micking is been mentioned and explain. that is a big like! Congrats!
Bechstein sounds awesome, but I was sold on the Steinway when he said it's more "forgiving" LOL
I think when it come to this level of craftsmanship then it's a matter of personal taste. I prefer the Bechstein, being the owner of pre-war 'old bones' one. It's difficult to compare when acoustics of environment, microphone setup, and pieces played are not consistent.
And I wonder how the lives of the people involved in the design and building of the instruments differ. Do the artisans retire to their homes and listen to classical music, jazz etc, read good literature, and pursue further education and skills? It known in artistry that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Nice video, and really nice playing. Congrats!
Bechstein gana por calidad, profundidad, entonación, claridad del sonido, timbre de bajos, medios y agudos, y ese inconfundible sonido de "campanadas" que sólo Bechstein tiene. Por supuesto que Steinway tiene bien ganadas sus estrellas, es un piano superlativo y nadie se lo niega, pero entiendo que el marketing ha ayudado demasiado a Steinway & Sons contra otras marcas. Por ejemplo, Bösendorfer es claramente superior a Steinway en toda línea, pero tiene menos publicidad. Saludos cordiales y gracias por el video.
I can't disagree with your sentiments about the C. Bechstein sound. It is a near perfect tone in my opinion! However, it is important to note that tonal preferences are a deeply subjective matter. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder at the end of the day. :)
Sounds like Stu (with others commenting here) respects the Steinways, but he LOVES the Bechsteins!
I read that there was a terrible windstorm in the Val di Fiemme in 2018 that felled a number of trees and, because of all the dead wood lying about, exacerbated the problem of bark beetles. I’m wondering what the impact of these factors has been (and will be) on the cost and quality of instruments that have been using Val di Fiemme wood.
Hi! Brent here! Steinway and C. Bechstein both make some of the finest instruments in the world! With that said, it really comes down to a matter of personal preference. Both of these pianos offer different musical flavours. In terms of the windstorms in the Val di Fiemme forests, I did read about that, but, so far, it does not seem to have had any bearing on the price points or quality of the Bechstein Concert pianos in anyway. :)
By playing the same program material on both pianos would have helped make the comparison a bit easier, in my humble opinion.Having played both of these models it comes down to which one you prefer. Either is an excellent choice. That being said, I’ would choose the Sty B every time because of its sound and playability, in addition to its scale design and diaphragmatic soundboard. Thank you for a great demo. 🎹
Steinway is the gold standard everything else aspires toward.
Very informative. Thanks for a excellent presentation. I prefer the Bechstein.
Bechstein sounds much better... but is the Steinway Hamburg ?
It's a NY, it has the square cheeks.
@@jassonsw k tx
@@jassonsw and a flanged hinge on the fall board, and different music desk style, etc. ...
@@allanreiter4088 All that has gone away and now the NY Steinways look very similar to the Hamburgs with rounded cheeks, veneer inside the rim, music desk style, almost everything.
@@allanreiter4088 And its matte!
Hello Stu from Manchester in England,
Thank you so much for all your amazing reviews and demonstrations on your channel from concert grands to digital pianos all of which you give respect and due consideration to.
Like many who have commented here I too learned a lot from your commentary and I conclude that building a piano is a compromise and that you have to chose what your priorities are, e.g. mid-tone clarity, blending all tones across the key range or having separation between the registers like Bosendorfer does etc.
Can you give us your view on the wide tail design employed by Bostons and Feurichs? Clearly, that design allows for longer bass strings and a bigger sound board relative to the length of the piano but if these were without attendant drawbacks why doesn't Steinway and all Tier 1 manufacturers employ the design? I think I read somewhere that the design causes issues with bass overtones but I would be interested in your view.
Also, whilst we're here can you also add your '2 penneth' to the debate about sand-cast vs vacuum mould plates? I read a lot about this including from acoustic engineers and metallurgists and my conclusion is as follows: Neither process adds or detracts anything material or noticeable to the sound of the piano. The acoustic contribution of the plate is negligible compared to the other components such as the soundboard, the rim, the bridge, the strings etc and the different resonances of the 2 metals could each be argued to be one better than the other. The reason that high end pianos are sand-cast is that the set-up costs of the vacuum process is much higher so savings are only made where high volumes are being made. Thus, the Yamaha CX series is vacuum moulded whereas the CF series are sand-cast - because they have very limited numbers so not economic to set up vacuum processes for them. It's nothing to do with sand-cast being 'better'. A salesman in London told me how, on a tour, the Yamaha rep demonstrated how if you bang a sand-cast piece of metal with a hammer is rings longer and clearer than the same that was vacuum moulded which showed how sand-cast is superior for making plates! I found that hilarious by the way!
Anyway, your opinions and responses would be valued and for the record I own the best piano in the world! It’s way better than any other piano in the world because I bought it with my own money so yah boo to anyone who suggests that I could have bought something better thereby invalidating my buying decisions! Those folks over in Shelbyville are idiots and not to be trusted! :-)
Keep up the good work Stu and if I'm ever in Ontario I will be sure to come in and visit your fantastic store.
Ian
Tomorrow I have the opportunity to choose between these two very instruments at Whidbey Island Center for the Arts for a concert a month away.
Very nice! That is an excellent opportunity. I wish you all the best and hope you enjoy playing these two marvellous grand pianos. :)
It appears to me that he plays the Bechstein with lesson effort.
The piano tech in Seattle who rebuilt a great old Mason & Hamlin for Cornish institute patiently explained a couple of ideas regarding piano construction strategies. RIP. My understanding is that the primary function of the rim in a Steinway ISN'T to vibrate along with the soundboard. That's why it's made of dense Rock Mapel. It's purpose is to eject or project said vibration into the air as acoustical energy. This combined with Steinways thinner but higher crowned soundboard creates a schizophrenic instrument one who's charming tone is only distantly related to it's ecstatic high energy bombastic tone. Ah pianists like this! Pretty much mopping up it's more polite European brothers. Maybe before this Bechstein at least.. The other American powerhouse is Mason & Hamlin Chickering was goody too once upon a time in the West. But I'm listening hard to you brother.
Solid comment. Personally, I think Stu makes too much of the rim, but I could be wrong.
Paxwallacejazz...was that tech in Seattle named Frank Morgan? Frank was the go to tech up there back in the 1950-90s
His sight was impaired, but he had golden ears and was a stellar tech who was on-call at all the music venues, including all the pianos at Seattle U and Univ of Washington. He was also Oscar Peterson's on-call tuner whenever he came to Seattle to play. At the intermission of every concert, he had Frank do a mini-tune-touch-up.
My take away from this video besides the great information is how ironic it is that it's 2 major piano makers who have access to the same type of spruce used in Stradivari instruments of olde. Not the many luthiers today making violins and cello's. Let me know (anyone) if you know of any luthiers who DO.
Had I the funds it would likely be either a Bluthner or C. Bechstein. :) Over a Steinway (3rd chocie)..or a Shimmel K230 if I can get past the fact that Pearl River owns majority shares so they can be called the "parent company". Still made in Germany. So ti is still technically a German piano company. The concern is what Pearl River will do as the managing company...good or bad over time.
You are definetely a great teacher. 👏👏
Stu I want you to play a big modern Mason & Hamilin
Such nice playing!!! It would be very interesting to hear a Sauter. Although it is a smaller piano I am very interested in the Sauter Delta 185. I'm so super impressed with the build and tonal quality of my Sauter upright I play that more often than my very decent sounding 1920 Steinway M. The control Steinway yields over pianists through "Steinway Artists" seems so very manipulative. At least with Dave Brubeck (Baldwin) and Chick Corea (Yamaha) it seemed like their hands weren't as forced to play those instruments. Although, I still would've listened to them play on a tin can.
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your insights! Sauter is not a line that we carry currently, so it may be a bit difficult to tackle a review/comparison video. However, we do periodically get some interesting used instruments come through our inventory. Thanks for the suggestion! We will do our best to tackle a review/comparison. :)
Can someone please tell me the nome of the song played on the Bechstein
At the end he's playing "Waltz for Debby."
Bechstein's oversimplification :" lighter hardwood requires less energy to get vibrating"
Corrolary : Once lighter wood is vibrating it has less inertia than heavier wood and will stop vibrating sooner.
Maybe u need to compare German made Model B to C.Bechstein B212
That would definitely make for a wonderful comparison! Thanks for the suggestion! :)
It would have been a better comparison if the same music was used on both! It becomes a dead comparison,
Yes I hate it when they do not play the same. Especially for us non-players.
How can you talk about a piano without mentioning the action!? Give me a pre war Bechstein any day! 😁
Yep, but today‘s Bechsteins are also pretty amazing.
I'm very happy with my 1910 Bechstein, and it does have that warm rich sound. Perfect for Jazz, blues, nocturnes and ballads.
One thing I have to disagree with. He said multiple times that Steinway is known for their "clarity." I think it's actually very well the opposite. Many people I know, and myself included, have commented on Steinway's almost muffled sound. A colleague of mine once told me that a student of his said Steinway grands sound like they have a blanket covered over them and he told the student that's just how Steinway sounds, and I have to agree with them. Maybe the B in this video is an exception, but Steinway Bs and Ds in general, while having a warm tone and that beefy Steinway sound, are most definitely NOT known for their "clarity."
@DrDLL99
I don't think of clarity and brightness as being the same. To me, clarity is how well all of the different notes being played stand out, in other words can you hear the individual notes and do they harmonize nicely, or do they blend into a less intelligible mush? One of the key factors here is the degree of inharmonicity, an area where Steinway pianos perform better than average.
Brightness/dullness can be addressed by voicing, but I have to say I've never heard a Steinway that sounds muffled, so I'm surprised at your comment.
DrDLL99 Hamburg is known for clarity
I know not all Steinways are good, but to me the good ones speak very clearly.
@@marianneoelund2940 I'm definitely inclined to agree with you. I found DR.DLL's comments odd, but have encountered old Steinways which were pretty bad.
I partially agree that the NY B recording was not as sharp as it could be. Nevertheless, when I hosted an adult amateur sonata recital for 10 advanced amateurs a year ago with my 20 yo Hamburg B and new CB B in my home, I politely asked two of my friends who played on the Steinway and go back to re-play a specific movement on the new CB. We had a discussion afterward on the many differences (action, tone ...). It seemed everyone was unanimous in the feeling that the Steinway had a clearer tone. But whether it was Grieg or more so Debussy, there was more "color" or robust beauty with the Bechstein. In another recital, an old friend played a Bach Cantata transcription on the Bechstein and we heard the color of the SATB voices (Soprano-Alto-Tenor-Bass) come through. It motivated me to go back and learn a 3-4 part Bach fugue with a coaching lesson on voicing. Hard work, but worth it for the result on the Bechstein.
In the Steinway's defense every piano is an individual instrument and is very much dependent on who's been taking care of it. It's just not like comparing automobiles.
That is certainly true and I know Stu has commented on this in other videos. There tends to be more disparity between different Steinway specimens of the same model compared to C. Bechstein. C. Bechstein Concert pianos tend to be very consistent. Depending on one's philosophy, there are possible pros and cons to both situations. Some people find the individuality of a given instrument to be a very romantic notion, whereas other people prefer the musical experience provided by the instrument that is brought to their home to be as consistent as possible with the floor model they played at the showroom.
Steinway hands down!!
That is certainly fair. These are both wonderful instruments that offer a different musical profile. :)
Sorry what type of wood is the soundboard on the Bechstein and from where please?
The C. Bechstein's (like the B212 in this video) is Red Spruce from the Val Di Fieme in Italy. It's a very rare variety of spruce, and the same type and source location that Stradivarius Violins use (that's what made it famous). Fazioli also uses it, although Fazioli doesn't manufacture the boards themselves, whereas Bechstein makes all of their own soundboards. Thanks for the question! - Stu
Thankyou very very much beautiful description in video nobody could do it better you really have talent to describe music I listened to it twice. Well done you are a genius speaker 💖💖💖
Sorry, what you said is false. At FAZIOLI we make every single soundboard by ourselves, using the red spruce from Val di Fiemme since 1980 (other piano makers came after us). We write from the FAZIOLI factory, Sacile, Italy.
@@FazioliPianos Hi Fazioli, greetings from Toronto. So for our information then, this document is no longer correct? www.ciresafiemme.it/images/pdf/Lett.%20Refer.%20ing.FAZIOLI%2001.2009.pdf
@@MerriamPianos, Actually the user didn’t ask you a question about the FAZIOLI soundboards. You were supposed to reply concerning the brand you represent. Therefore, the correct document to be posted is:
www.ciresafiemme.it/images/pdf/Lettera%20Bechstein%20referenza%201.2009.pdf
Regarding our letter dated 2009, that was written as a reference for Ciresa as a trustworthy supplier. In the letter we do not state that we use Ciresa soundboards on all our pianos. In any case, we do not owe any explanation: we would rather invite you to speak about the brand you represent, in order not to spread wrong information to users interested on pianos.
Bechstein, no contest. One of your chords in Higher Ground was wrong. Do you know which one?
It might be worth noting Merriam are a Bechstein dealer.
We are a Bechstein dealer, but we also have many used Steinway pianos come through our showrooms. Both of these giants of the industry produce incredible instruments. It really comes down to the tonal and musical preferences of the player. In either case, one will be playing on a truly beautiful piano. :)
What's the name of the song starting in 13:56?
I would have to check with Stu on that! But, perhaps, one of our knowledgeable community members here will know the answer! :)
Permit me to apply to these elite pianos some physics I understand for violins.
Lower harmonics carry better in a concert hall full of people.
Higher harmonics are absorbed easier by clothes, hair etc.
So instruments designed for big concert halls must be overloaded with high harmonics to sound balanced to the audience after serious high harmonic absorbion by the audience.
This is not necessarily the most pleasing sound to someone as close to the instrument as the musician.
Likewise, violins in international violin making competitions can win when played in a room, but loose when up against a full orchestra.
Piano manufacturers have 84 more strings than a violin, and a complex mechanical action, but the general target markets for both are similar.
It has been found that the frequency spacing (delta) between the violin A1 cavity mode and the B1 body mode is critical to the overall tone and playing qualities, indicating whether a violin is suitable for:
■soloists (delta 60-80 Hz) = bright powerful big hall sound and wide dynamic range & hard to play well
■orchestra players (delta 40-60 Hz) = toned down a bit from soloist level, but good power and richness
■chamber music players (delta 20-40 Hz) = nobody sticking out with power over the small team, but very rich complementary resonances facilitate listening to each other
■student violins with delta below 20 Hz are easy to play but lack power (Hutchins 1989).
If we ignore the violin specific details, the same 4 broad target markets for pianos apply, plus we add accompanyist for singers, instrumentalists, choirs, jazz ensembles.
Manufaturers strive for balance between massive high harmonics, sound cutting through an orchestra, great power, rich intimate resonances, sweatness. Each piano maker is designing models & sizes for specific target markets.
Recording pianos close up mainly tests for a more intimate chamber music quality.
I love the evaluations of the many models and try to imagine the target markets attracted by each model.
Thanks for sharing your insights about the violin! It is a very good point that, sometimes, the ideal tone for a specific room, context, or musical setting is not the sound that would be most enjoyed by the player. Another example of this is recording a piano as part of an ensemble arrangement. While the pianist's desired tone might be a lush, warm voice, because there are other instruments occupying the low and low-mid frequency space (i.e. bass, guitar, etc.), this can create muddiness. A brighter piano tone with some of those lower frequency bands rolled off are likely to "sit" better in a mix. Thanks so much once again and all the best! :)
Bechstein sounds way better! If it was a Hamburg Steinway it would be equal though.
The Hamburg Steinways are certainly a different animal musically than the New York Steinways. With that said, these are all wonderful piano brands that offer immense musical capability. It ultimately comes down to a matter of personal musical taste. :)
NY Steinways are known to be inconsistent in quality of sound, especially in recent decades, but some NY Steinways are magnificent. The Steinway B in this video is not one of them. I own a 1965 Steinway B that has a much more beautiful tone quality than this one. In this comparison the Bechstein sound is more beautiful.
Hi! Brent here! That is certainly true! I have played some incredible New York Steinway pianos too. But, when purchasing a new boxed instrument, consistency can be an important consideration. The C. Bechstein pianos are very impressive in that regard. The precision and consistency is virtually unparalleled.
Hands down Steinway! What a rich tone. The Bechstein reminded me a lot of Schimmel. My favorite European piano so far is Estonia. Of course, August Forster are awesome as well.
Many people say the same, Estonia pianos are sooo underrated and are excellent pianos. Have never heard one live but many times in UA-cam.
Is Schinmel a good brand since you compared C.Bechstein to one of those?
You play, of course, and you play all these...........?
Bechstein
Hmm. The bechstein wasn't to my fancy. usually I prefer the bechstein, but this sounded too sterile.
"people who have $150k to spend on a piano"
and I'm out...
Spend !! prevent another GFC !!
It's amazing how they prices have inflated almost beyond belief.
@@keithcitizen4855
An old Russian piano teacher I met at the Kapell piano competition once told me that she always traded up to "previously owned" and well maintained or refurbished pianos, probably for significantly less.
@@JoeLinux2000
Craftsmanship is a dying art. Students now aim for IT. Even poor Bechstein who in recent years got many of it technicians from the CZ Republic are finding it difficult to replace them. Charles University had a instrument manufacturing college 20 years ago. It's gone. Finally, these pianos if maintained, I do believe could last for 2-3 generations. My Hamburg B is now 20 yo and better than ever. Cavaliere Fazioli told me that his grands are built to last at least 3 generations and after a tour of his factory, I believe him.
One can look up the technical details of each instrument online at their respective manufacturer's websites... I'd like to HEAR the same pieces and the same playing on each instrument. I don't feel this was a good comparison. "Synchron Stage Vienna" did a much better comparison of pianos. I play, and would never buy a piano sight unseen or on someone's recommendation.
Both are excellent pianos depending on what you'd like to play on them most often. I presonsally prefer the Yamaha Schimmel and Estonia pianos. They're all solid and reliable like a Toyota... walk up to one to play it, and you know what you're going to get.
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your feedback. I certainly agree that playing a piano in person is always the best way to determine which instrument you truly connect with. However, we have many piano shoppers that live in remote places with no access to a piano showroom. We try to ensure that our viewers get both a technical education of the instruments as well as a demonstration of what they offer musically.
We owe a lot to Steinway just like we owe to Érard. Unfortunetly, Érard disappeared.
Yea the Bechstein is the clear winner in this comparison - much more colourful, even taking into account the curtains behind the Steinway. This particular NY Steinway B is clearly a wooden, mediocre one - far from the best NY Steinway B you can buy.
MASON&HAMILIN
Exquisite
That B does not sound right. It is missing the signature creamy sound.
Hard to tell just listening on computer speakers.
@@JoeLinux2000
Listening on my Mac with Bose headphones, there was a night & day fullness (creaminess?) of sound on the CB B. Still a hint of clarity on the NY B, but in spite of the special microphone effort I wonder haw the final recording was saved to UA-cam. Sometimes room placement makes a difference. But the impressions provided good representations to my (IMHO) ears.
🤗🎹
Bechstein definitely wins for me 💗😊👍.
After listening to 19th century pianos this steinway has steep decay of notes. The sound dies so fast, it does not sing. it sounds like amplified pin drops. This is reversal of technology from the 19th century to the 20th and 21st. Someday the classic world will have to stop denial and accept that piano manufacturing has strayed in the wrong directions, prioritizing ego, power at the detriment of the arts, the real artist (composer+performer) not the interpreter pianist, and esthetics,
All this speech and yet concert grand from the 1880 beat anything made today and by far. The problem is wrong needs are being articulated that do not serve the musical arts, instead power machines are made, that all look ridiculously the same and more ugly than even midrange 19th century pianos. The best music came from 19th century pianos and earlier, and it has been a desert every since Steinway and their cast iron frame ruined the piano sound and all others with them. Someone has to start a company that makes exact reproduction of the best 1880 pianos and throw all that false improvement tech pushed by Steinway to the trash where it belongs.
I dunno....the Bluthner's that I have played are shite, such a heavy action, Yamaha and Steinway have never failed to impress. I haven't played Bechstein for 10 years but have never been that impressed with the sustain. Bosendorfer are awful, I don't need to hit keys that hard! I can't provide documentary evidence but some Kawai uprights I have played are brilliant. So: If you have the space ...Yamaha or Steinway...if not then a Kawai. If you need a small digital then Roland Juno DS88 and download the patch "Classical" from the Axial website. All you need to know from after 40 years of piano playing !....I learnt by playing a John Broadwood which was OK, nothing special.
Can USA made piano maintains the good tradition of made in USA (Steinway is made in Brooklyn 🥵🥵🥵)
The Steinway factory is in Astoria, which is in Queens, not Brooklyn...
The rim of a piano is not supposed to be a source of sound. All the energy of the strings are supposed to go to the soundboard and any energy that goes elsewhere on a piano is energy lost. The analogy is that of a common stereo speaker wherein the rim is typically a heavy metal affair supporting the paper (or other material) that the sound energy emanates from. The rim should be inert, completely…..never vibrating since, again, any energy that goes to the supporting structure is energy lost in the primary component of sound……the speaker diaphragm. A piano is the same. The rim of a Steinway is made of hard maple laminated both the inner and outer rim so as to make it as inert and dead as a sound absorber as possible so as to confine the sound energy to the soundboard and ribs.…..the idea that different wood species in the rim somehow adding to the difference in tone, in my opinion, is a false narrative. Having said that……I loved your discussion.😊😊 This in no way takes away the incredible clarity and beauty of the Bechstein piano.
Thank you for tuning in! We're glad you enjoyed the video. Also, thank you for the very articulate and well-thought out insights. :)
I certainly understand your reasoning and points. To that point, it is interesting that some companies, such as Bechstein, design rim constructions with very specific ply thicknesses of various tone woods. I suppose the only way to truly put things to the test is to have two of the exact same overall piano designs (utilizing the same materials aside from the rim), but take the two different approaches to rim construction.
At the end of the day, I suppose it does not matter how much a particular component or design detail contributes to the overall sonic experience an instrument provides, as it is the overall musical experience an instrument provides and its emotional impact on the player that matter most.
Thanks so much once again for your wonderful insights! :)
As a registered piano technician with 40+ years in the trenches I find it amusing to see marketing attempts to get a leg-up on the competition that are somewhat, if not wildly, absurd. I like the plate casting with the label “made with bell metal” as if anyone would want a piano to have a bell ringing in the background…..or anywhere in the sound mix or otherwise. Other marketing attempts, like the famous ‘Storytone Soundboard’ of the Story and Clarke is a good example of marketing lines that were used as a tool to sell a piano. So….in my opinion, any part of a piano case, leg, music rack, rim, or lid that vibrates, is nothing more than acoustic energy diverted from the soundboard where it is needed……..in the soundboard of course.
Not fair comparison between Steinway model B under $100K vs C. Bechstein 212 $170K that supposed to compare with Steinway model D.
No, size wise they are the same and a Hamburg Steinway B definitely is a match for the Bechstein's price.
The sound sucks! It's the room!
He talks too much. Play more.
There are many piano shoppers out there entering the market for the first time, so we do our best to be thorough with our content.
This should have a warning: 99% yadayada.