For any viewers, familiar and unfamiliar alike: this is effectively a podcast. For those wondering how long it takes to set the stage and let my guest take over, it's about 16 minutes. The thread displayed at the beginning of the video, with the link directly to the post that started this whole chaotic debate: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-xv-bw-discussion-and-now-some-tiering-discussion.3734115/page-2#post-10067041
It doesn't matter where I am what I'm doing what's going on in the world. I travel the depths of the earth to be here for BW OU content from sir chicken who do the kicken.
Unrelated to bw but this is related to Peng's frustrations with modern day tiering policy. ADV OU had a suspect in the December of 2023 of ADV Speed Pass, despite the fact that the playerbase as a whole wanted to take action against specific parts of speed pass that were problematic. (Accuracy Lowering Moves, Swagger [Which is now Banned] and Ninjask itself). The topic was divided enough that speed pass wasn't banned but some of the degenerate strategies are still possible today because the council isn't allowed to specifically target certain things. I think that lower gen councils should have the freedom to change there tiers for the better and not have there hands tied to such a severe degree by the tiering council, else why even have lower gen councils in the first place if they have no real power to make decisions?
Smogon in general is marred by legacy. For every 20 dumbass arguments complaining about evasion strategies or the existence of Ubers there is a valid discussion about how Smogon could improve.
8 OU Zamazenta is even more stupid than you think. It didn't learn hone claws, it used howl. A box-art legendary was using a move Poochyena learns at level 5 and it was too powerful for the OU tier. Happy it finally learned body press in gen 9, it deserved the move since day one.
Zamazenta might unironically be more pathetic than Kyurem Black. At least Kyurem-B has banded Outrage in gen 5, which counts for something. Zama gets diddly squat in gen 8. And the jump between Kyurems White and Black is way smaller than Zamazenta to Anything goes threat, Zacian. It's just sad dude...
@Gold_Gamer_100 zama I'd hella good in gen 9 though. It's arguably a top 5 mon and while people have accepted it, it's a lot stronger than what people initially expected.
@@pmwaffle9348oh for sure. Gen 9 Zamazenta is actually a pokemon. Sure, it was nerfed, but at least it had the silver lining of letting it stay in OU, being a check to quite a few physical attackers. Also helps they gave it the move that's literally designed for mons like it, Body Press.
When he said we should just ban all of ou to Ubers and effectively make uu the new ou, I really resonated with that, that’s the kind of Bkc content I’m here for
As a Gen 9 player, it's reassuring to hear that bureaucracy is just as big a pain to deal with for past gen when it comes centralizing game mechanics that push certain pokemon over the edge.
As happy as I am that BW OU has seen lots of usage of less conventional weathers like sun/hail, I do agree that something needs to change if we don’t want this added variety to either: 1. Be a passing fad where people find quick-and-easy answers to sun and hail teams that don’t ruin the overall structure of already existing sand/rain cores 2. Result in teams being unable to fit answers to all of the other teamstyles into just 6 slots so it just becomes matchup fishing that decides games at team preview
My username is Reuniclus for a reason. I love using it in Gen 5. CM is great, TR is great. Fits on almost any style of team. Sand, dragmag, hail, HO, even rain
If Thundurus-T ban leads to Zapdos somehow joining OU, please get FSG to commemorate with a Zapdos is Still Great episode where we retroactively crown Zapdos as the only Pokemon to reach OU status in every Gen
it seems very silly that banning Sand Rush Exca is so out of the question. why care so much about tiering evenly across gens? sure, have some guidelines but why not allow flexibility. they're not all apples, they're apples and oranges and bananas and pineapples, etc.
I don't know what BW OU should exactly do but they need to do something, and not be afraid to make 'unpopular' tests or quickbans. I participated in the gen5 ou suspect test even though I knew most people were going to vote to continue allowing their broken petmons anyways, maybe out of insanity. Cloyster definitely needs to go, same with Volcorona, then we can move onto the dark triad of Latios/Thunderous/Reun and try to make a balanced tier. Or just keep going in its gimmicky state forever.
I think they should do some test ladders with mons banned just to see how it plays out. Ban each mon for like a week in the test ladder, see whats actually useful or not. Maybe test the mons they want to drop to, but I feel like the meta needs the bans first lol. Also have one week with everything banned, just to see what its like lol.
So, possibly ignorant question from someone who likes reading and watching competitive Pokemon more than playing it. Why are some people so adamant about keeping Latios for it's defensive purposes against the meta-game when Latias is right there? Latios is an overwhelming force due to its combination of useful defensive traits like speed, spikes and ground immunity, recovery, and Trick, while also being an amazing wall breaker that can just slam heavy damage with Draco Meteor, coverage, and utilize Trick to ruin the few defensive Pokemon that can deal with it. Couldn't any team using Latios now just swap it for Latias and get pretty much the same benefits (Same typing, same ability, identical movesets, same speed) with the only exception being a slight change in stats? Surely 20 Sp. Attack moved to Sp. Defense wouldn't make it useless if it didn't have a Latios to compete with, just have slightly more bulk and more manageable damage. I mean, that's why Latios is banned in Gen 4, but Latias is legal.
Latios doesn’t check specs Keldeo unless it can one shot it. Latios can draco but Latias is forced to run psychic which means any dark type can switch in and pursuit it.
One thing I'm curious of, if enough people do think Sand Force Exca is too much and decide to take action, will Sand Force be banned to keep a good spinner in the tier like Sand Rush or will Excadrill as a whole be banned
@Jack-id5gm Just checked on Showdown, gave Sandslash Sand Rush, clicked validate, and it said that Sand Rush is banned, so it's not just on Excadrill and it's not just on sand. Are you trying to say Sand Force, not Sand Rush, wouldn't be banned?
Honestly I always thought it was insane that either of the Latis were allowed in Gen 4 and 5 OU (I know it's mostly just cuz of TTaur being able to pursuit trap them), though I haven't really played Smogon since 2015
"pLeAsE dOn'T sPrEaD mIsInFoRmAtIoN" lol stfu my guy. It's Pokemon. Even if he were to spread misinformation, the ramifications are utterly inconsequential. Get laid or something.
Hi, I played a lot of gen 4 ou back in the day, and never seriously touched gen 5 ou. As an outsider, I've always been curious, why not ban the weather setters? From the outside, it looks like people constantly exhibiting the most insane mental gymnastics to try and ban everything but the weather setters, but am I missing something?
It would be interesting if you took a look at Pokemmo's pvp, it's a very interesting version of bw ou where they update the game based on the new generations, maybe it could help in this discussion
Honest question, why do people defend latios as integral to the defensive structure of the tier when latias exists, who is a) weaker offensively and b) stronger defensively?
I think we answer this in the video but to summarise - Latios' role is twofold in BW, firstly its used offensively paired alongside other Psychics/Thundurus-T to bait and weaken stuff like Tyranitar, and secondly its used for utility as an outspeed and reliable revenge-killer of the 91-108 speed mons (Keldeo, Thundurus, Kyu-B, Garchomp, Terrakion, Lando-T etc). Counter to what you'd think, its 130 SAtk is arguably more important for the second role than the first. Vs Tyranitar teams you're just sacrificially using Latios to put it into range of your teammate, which Latias is more than competent at doing also, and we already see plenty of Latias + Reuniclus teams as evidence of this, the power dropoff when paired with another Psychic is not that a big deal. But vs the offensive mons you want to revenge kill, the 130 vs 110 SAtk drop off is huge, even small things like Latias' Scarf Dragon Pulse failing to OHKO opposing dragons, or Meteor failing to KO Thundurus after rocks, completely shifts many dynamics of how Latios works as a glue Pokemon. Nobody knows exactly what a post-Latios meta would look like, but there's a chance that banning it doesn't fix the Spikes + Psychics issue but just makes a bunch of other wallbreakers in the tier even harder to handle
I don't think Lugia or Reshiram would be a positive input it would either be negligible or negative, DeoD, Zekrom and Darkrai I think very strongly are likely to be very good and prominent pokemon but mostly exacerbates the existing problem
HaVing now finished the video, I think you really under spoke on how significant Ferrothorn is. It feels to me like the main reason that Spikes are this much better than in DPP, it's very easy to use and fits on teams.
it's a reasonable point but the magic guard spam teams that strangle the tier use skarmory instead for its superior longevity (recovery, spikes immune, good into excadrill)! ferro is great and all but doesn't feel like "the issue". splitting hairs, but fwiw I don't think spikes are /much/ better than in dpp; a lot of the same issues - spinning being bad, spiker (skarm) being amazing, it being preferable to stack spike immunes - have taken over the tier in recent years bc of how difficult it is to stop
Definitely not. In BW sand is permanent and rocks are significantly harder to remove due to no defog and spinning being pretty difficult in the tier. Both of these factors break multiscale extremely easily and cut into lugia’s bulk. Plus BW in some ways has a higher offensive power level than 6-8.
Why BW wants to free Lugia I will never know, SV OU I can understand since Lugia is just that bad in SV, but freeing Lugia in BW OU sounds idiotic at a lower power level like this
Lugia is arguably worse in BW because SV has HDB and Tera. The prevalence of infinite sand/hail also makes Multiscale less useful in BW. It is also Pursuit weak which isn't a problem in SV. But yeah, it's still pretty insane with fast Roost and even without Multiscale active its bulk is crazy good.
@@20oxide36Nah it's worse overall, more stuff that could threaten it in an OU context in SV and it has no thunder wave or toxic, and recover pp got destroyed in gen 9, and remember the gen 9 power level is way higher
18:23 Peng says here that bulky sand teams "should" be the best and "should" be safe to bring and thats why Cloyster and Thundurus are seen as OP, can you explain this? How can we say it "should" be good or safe. It is what it is why should it be different
yeah this is a good question - the reason i think this is cos sand, very generally, is not about chasing huge upside in the teambuilder but about assembling safe pokemon that counteract some of the busted stuff in the game. Top players run Sand because, rarely do they have a strong MU advantage at team preview, but they tend to reward the better player cos they have access to the best "teambuilder tools". Spikes are insane in BW and Exca is by far the best spinner, enabled by sand. Tyranitar is the best Pursuiter in the game to counteract the multiple Psychics. Obviously Tyranitar is also a big part of denying something like Specs Keldeo or SubTect Tentacruel. Sand has access to the best status absobers - Gliscor, Breloom, Celebi, Blissey, Clefable Seismitoad, Gastrodon, which is big in the Scald generation. Most of the mons listed here are not forming some kind of OP offensive strategy, you're just using them in a reactionary way to try and counteract things like 30% burn in the pursuit of consistency, which I personally don't think you should be able to counterstyle this strongly and easily. Something like CB Mamoswine capitalises on the same trends but is outplayable in a much more reasonable way.
"Free Lugia" If BST isn't a valid argument for keeping a Pokemon banned? Maybe not that bad of an idea since the tier has its more than fair share of incredibly hard hitters and Lugia's typing (even with multiscale) sort of lets it down more often than not? Btw having no offensive presence is a huge setback for a Poke, especially an uber
@@BKCplaysPokemon I guess it makes sense I missed this since I wasn’t really too deep into things back then. Did that post end up gaining supporters/sparking real discussion on spikes? Also has anyone brought them up in the past few years that I missed?
@@BKCplaysPokemonWhat was the history behind the Evasion ban like? Were there similar issues to banning moves or was it treated differently bc it was a broader mechanic?
It's weird to say but BW is probably most comparable to RBY in terms of how it feels to correctly take tiering action, and that in particular comes about in the realm of just needing to take actions for the health of the specific metagame involved rather than trying to worry about how the tier's rules are inconsistent compared to one another. Permanent Weather and the sheer prevelance of Dragons are elements specific to BW OU that don't exist in other tiers in the same generation to the same degree.
Rocks keeps all the broken mons barely in check (except for Magic guard friends). You wpuld rather want a metagame with easy to dish out permanent chip damage, than having tons of games with really slow progression
I think keldeo is kinda underrated right now, it's still really threatening. I tried a sub, cm, surf, HP ghost set on rain HO and it just dumpsters a disgusting amount of the tier. Opposing HO struggles to withstand rain boosted surfs, opposing rain losses the moment it lets ferro die/get low, and sand really struggles too if it loses ferro. Getting a CM on a switch to a standard keld check and then clicking sub vs their toxic/scald/wilo kinda ends the game on the spot vs a bunch of teams. Plus you can treat it as a normal leftiez keldeo until the moment the reveal is opportune.
Maybe we just need to go back and allow swift swim and all the good stuff. Let it be a broken tier. I loved playing during that time. But to be fair, total noob haha
What happens if u were to recreate a day 1 BW meta, BW1 even, if not Unova dex only-ok this one is for jokes-and then you proceed w/ 0 complex bans. No swift swim ban. It’s either, ban drizzle, or poly. Cuz rn I see the routes possible to be Undo gem ban, axe cloyster. Very uncool. In SV I’m tryna see reverse. Sleep is banned? Let’s unban kings rock. Cloyster would be good. Ur not flinching between the army of booster energy, or jovert cloak, let alone ability’s built to deal w/ flinching. On the tidbit of “cross gen examples are faulty” you’d have to know why whether game mechanic, power creep or nerf. The fact that inner focus was never considered by the SS council is super stupid. In the same gen where pretty sure it stumps intimidate Ban thundy? Hmm. Unban lugia? Would be monumental, unbanning deo. He alr existed. He drops first. Ban spikes? At least turn it into GSC, da 1 spike. Free darkrai?! Hell ya Also would banning latios just be more considered if keldeo was by default strapped to that rocket? BW alr has 1 unused lati
For any viewers, familiar and unfamiliar alike: this is effectively a podcast.
For those wondering how long it takes to set the stage and let my guest take over, it's about 16 minutes.
The thread displayed at the beginning of the video, with the link directly to the post that started this whole chaotic debate: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-xv-bw-discussion-and-now-some-tiering-discussion.3734115/page-2#post-10067041
My mom shouted, asking me if I had done the dishes. I simply replied, "Lugia." She smiled, as she knew they were washed.
😂
I’m running a 103 fever right now and when I heard they wanted to unban darkrai I literally thought I was hallucinating
Just a bad dream
Anytime you go to take a piss, call up peng to sub in for 3 minutes
It doesn't matter where I am what I'm doing what's going on in the world. I travel the depths of the earth to be here for BW OU content from sir chicken who do the kicken.
Unrelated to bw but this is related to Peng's frustrations with modern day tiering policy. ADV OU had a suspect in the December of 2023 of ADV Speed Pass, despite the fact that the playerbase as a whole wanted to take action against specific parts of speed pass that were problematic. (Accuracy Lowering Moves, Swagger [Which is now Banned] and Ninjask itself). The topic was divided enough that speed pass wasn't banned but some of the degenerate strategies are still possible today because the council isn't allowed to specifically target certain things. I think that lower gen councils should have the freedom to change there tiers for the better and not have there hands tied to such a severe degree by the tiering council, else why even have lower gen councils in the first place if they have no real power to make decisions?
just switch bro there's counterplay 🤯🤯🤯🤯 /s
Smogon in general is marred by legacy. For every 20 dumbass arguments complaining about evasion strategies or the existence of Ubers there is a valid discussion about how Smogon could improve.
8 OU Zamazenta is even more stupid than you think. It didn't learn hone claws, it used howl. A box-art legendary was using a move Poochyena learns at level 5 and it was too powerful for the OU tier. Happy it finally learned body press in gen 9, it deserved the move since day one.
Zamazenta might unironically be more pathetic than Kyurem Black.
At least Kyurem-B has banded Outrage in gen 5, which counts for something. Zama gets diddly squat in gen 8. And the jump between Kyurems White and Black is way smaller than Zamazenta to Anything goes threat, Zacian.
It's just sad dude...
@Gold_Gamer_100 zama I'd hella good in gen 9 though. It's arguably a top 5 mon and while people have accepted it, it's a lot stronger than what people initially expected.
@@pmwaffle9348oh for sure. Gen 9 Zamazenta is actually a pokemon. Sure, it was nerfed, but at least it had the silver lining of letting it stay in OU, being a check to quite a few physical attackers. Also helps they gave it the move that's literally designed for mons like it, Body Press.
It is a true crime that behemoth bash is not steel-type body press.
When he said we should just ban all of ou to Ubers and effectively make uu the new ou, I really resonated with that, that’s the kind of Bkc content I’m here for
The duality of BKC-Either since UU is balanced, ban all of OU, or since Ubers is balanced, drop every Uber
As a Gen 9 player, it's reassuring to hear that bureaucracy is just as big a pain to deal with for past gen when it comes centralizing game mechanics that push certain pokemon over the edge.
As happy as I am that BW OU has seen lots of usage of less conventional weathers like sun/hail, I do agree that something needs to change if we don’t want this added variety to either:
1. Be a passing fad where people find quick-and-easy answers to sun and hail teams that don’t ruin the overall structure of already existing sand/rain cores
2. Result in teams being unable to fit answers to all of the other teamstyles into just 6 slots so it just becomes matchup fishing that decides games at team preview
the answer is ban the autoweathers which is what they should've done long ago but no one wants to admit it cause that be the most drastic thing ever
Anyone nonbiased with half a brain realized this was the issue the first month this tier existed
The more i think about it lugia would probably be worth testing with permanent sand and no boots
My username is Reuniclus for a reason. I love using it in Gen 5. CM is great, TR is great. Fits on almost any style of team. Sand, dragmag, hail, HO, even rain
If Thundurus-T ban leads to Zapdos somehow joining OU, please get FSG to commemorate with a Zapdos is Still Great episode where we retroactively crown Zapdos as the only Pokemon to reach OU status in every Gen
Every gen that isn’t gen 9 tho (where’s like, ok in OU)
Can Zapdos move up from UU? I think the past gen tiers are locked unless it’s UUBL to OU, but not UU to OU
Finchinator? Peng(uin)? BKChicken? That's it, BW OU is for the birds
Update as on May 7 2024: Cloyster got the axe.
it seems very silly that banning Sand Rush Exca is so out of the question. why care so much about tiering evenly across gens? sure, have some guidelines but why not allow flexibility. they're not all apples, they're apples and oranges and bananas and pineapples, etc.
I'm getting real detached from employees corporate board vibes from this whole thing
I don't know what BW OU should exactly do but they need to do something, and not be afraid to make 'unpopular' tests or quickbans. I participated in the gen5 ou suspect test even though I knew most people were going to vote to continue allowing their broken petmons anyways, maybe out of insanity. Cloyster definitely needs to go, same with Volcorona, then we can move onto the dark triad of Latios/Thunderous/Reun and try to make a balanced tier. Or just keep going in its gimmicky state forever.
I think they should do some test ladders with mons banned just to see how it plays out. Ban each mon for like a week in the test ladder, see whats actually useful or not. Maybe test the mons they want to drop to, but I feel like the meta needs the bans first lol. Also have one week with everything banned, just to see what its like lol.
Volcarona isn't that big of a problem currently tbh
Man, if there's one comfort in this world, it's that Smogon still cannot make decisions about Black and White competitive. It's that much of a mess.
So, possibly ignorant question from someone who likes reading and watching competitive Pokemon more than playing it. Why are some people so adamant about keeping Latios for it's defensive purposes against the meta-game when Latias is right there? Latios is an overwhelming force due to its combination of useful defensive traits like speed, spikes and ground immunity, recovery, and Trick, while also being an amazing wall breaker that can just slam heavy damage with Draco Meteor, coverage, and utilize Trick to ruin the few defensive Pokemon that can deal with it. Couldn't any team using Latios now just swap it for Latias and get pretty much the same benefits (Same typing, same ability, identical movesets, same speed) with the only exception being a slight change in stats? Surely 20 Sp. Attack moved to Sp. Defense wouldn't make it useless if it didn't have a Latios to compete with, just have slightly more bulk and more manageable damage. I mean, that's why Latios is banned in Gen 4, but Latias is legal.
The loss of 20 spa makes it much worse at revenge things which is part of latios’ role
Latios doesn’t check specs Keldeo unless it can one shot it. Latios can draco but Latias is forced to run psychic which means any dark type can switch in and pursuit it.
briging back Gems to deal with Thunderus T is called "Das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten".
gonna listen to this on my long drive to see a friend today
Honestly I think you have to ban keldeo latios and thundurus/hidden power altogether otherwise nothing gets done
One thing I'm curious of, if enough people do think Sand Force Exca is too much and decide to take action, will Sand Force be banned to keep a good spinner in the tier like Sand Rush or will Excadrill as a whole be banned
Sand force would likely be banned, as mold breaker exca is very healthy for the meta
@@blahtest we've been told its impossible to ban sand force (lame!), so it would have to be an entire drill vote, which is unlikely to get a majority
it was explicitly stated by oldgen council in the thread that sand rush, the ability, will not be banned
@@Jack-id5gm that's dumb
@Jack-id5gm Just checked on Showdown, gave Sandslash Sand Rush, clicked validate, and it said that Sand Rush is banned, so it's not just on Excadrill and it's not just on sand. Are you trying to say Sand Force, not Sand Rush, wouldn't be banned?
Honestly I always thought it was insane that either of the Latis were allowed in Gen 4 and 5 OU (I know it's mostly just cuz of TTaur being able to pursuit trap them), though I haven't really played Smogon since 2015
Make sun viable and bring down groudon
Bruh, Lugia isn’t eating at all nowadays. Gen 5 and 9 are contemplating dropping it to OU. While Ho-Oh has been top tier since Gen 5.
Yeah no one serious is actually considering dropping it into gen9 OU. Please don’t spread misinformation.
"pLeAsE dOn'T sPrEaD mIsInFoRmAtIoN" lol stfu my guy. It's Pokemon. Even if he were to spread misinformation, the ramifications are utterly inconsequential. Get laid or something.
Not my birthday, certainly not winter holidays. But I will happily take this as my gift for both.
Only BW OU players would ever suggest bringing in UBERS mons to balance the tier.
Would gen 5 be fixed with a weather ban?
At this point I wanna unban everything and make this BW Ubers. Would make a more fun metagame.
Hi, I played a lot of gen 4 ou back in the day, and never seriously touched gen 5 ou. As an outsider, I've always been curious, why not ban the weather setters? From the outside, it looks like people constantly exhibiting the most insane mental gymnastics to try and ban everything but the weather setters, but am I missing something?
Bw is weather. It becomes painfully boring without it
Not only is that not how tiering works, it’s also not true.
@@zylen3167you know what gen 5 ou looks like without weather?
Packwatch: Lugia. It won't even be good.
It would be interesting if you took a look at Pokemmo's pvp, it's a very interesting version of bw ou where they update the game based on the new generations, maybe it could help in this discussion
Honest question, why do people defend latios as integral to the defensive structure of the tier when latias exists, who is a) weaker offensively and b) stronger defensively?
I think we answer this in the video but to summarise - Latios' role is twofold in BW, firstly its used offensively paired alongside other Psychics/Thundurus-T to bait and weaken stuff like Tyranitar, and secondly its used for utility as an outspeed and reliable revenge-killer of the 91-108 speed mons (Keldeo, Thundurus, Kyu-B, Garchomp, Terrakion, Lando-T etc). Counter to what you'd think, its 130 SAtk is arguably more important for the second role than the first. Vs Tyranitar teams you're just sacrificially using Latios to put it into range of your teammate, which Latias is more than competent at doing also, and we already see plenty of Latias + Reuniclus teams as evidence of this, the power dropoff when paired with another Psychic is not that a big deal. But vs the offensive mons you want to revenge kill, the 130 vs 110 SAtk drop off is huge, even small things like Latias' Scarf Dragon Pulse failing to OHKO opposing dragons, or Meteor failing to KO Thundurus after rocks, completely shifts many dynamics of how Latios works as a glue Pokemon. Nobody knows exactly what a post-Latios meta would look like, but there's a chance that banning it doesn't fix the Spikes + Psychics issue but just makes a bunch of other wallbreakers in the tier even harder to handle
The obvious solution here is for everyone to just play BW CAP instead! :)
How fun is BW Ubers, actually? I've never really heard it brought up when compared to gens 3, 4 or 6.
check this out: ua-cam.com/video/KXQ93cZTSZQ/v-deo.htmlsi=jAZfuNjjg1Yv33Nh
agency lugia
I would dedicate my life to playing BW OU if Spikes were gone, that meta sounds awesome
I laughed out loud when you said "My days of going burn it all down unban kyruem white are behind"
Releasing Excadrill I wound up very possibly being a mistake why unban another Uber
I don't think Lugia or Reshiram would be a positive input it would either be negligible or negative, DeoD, Zekrom and Darkrai I think very strongly are likely to be very good and prominent pokemon but mostly exacerbates the existing problem
HaVing now finished the video, I think you really under spoke on how significant Ferrothorn is. It feels to me like the main reason that Spikes are this much better than in DPP, it's very easy to use and fits on teams.
it's a reasonable point but the magic guard spam teams that strangle the tier use skarmory instead for its superior longevity (recovery, spikes immune, good into excadrill)! ferro is great and all but doesn't feel like "the issue". splitting hairs, but fwiw I don't think spikes are /much/ better than in dpp; a lot of the same issues - spinning being bad, spiker (skarm) being amazing, it being preferable to stack spike immunes - have taken over the tier in recent years bc of how difficult it is to stop
The simplest solution? Just roll things back to BW1. Those were the days.
If Lugia is allowed in Gen 5 and isn’t broken, then does that mean we could try it in Gen 6-9?
Definitely not. In BW sand is permanent and rocks are significantly harder to remove due to no defog and spinning being pretty difficult in the tier. Both of these factors break multiscale extremely easily and cut into lugia’s bulk. Plus BW in some ways has a higher offensive power level than 6-8.
thank u bkc very cool
Can someone tell me why unbanning darkrai in a no sleep meta Gen 5 is worse than unbanning darkrai in no sleep Gen 9
Why BW wants to free Lugia I will never know, SV OU I can understand since Lugia is just that bad in SV, but freeing Lugia in BW OU sounds idiotic at a lower power level like this
I think it's a truly genius move, the meta can't be unfucked so just make it even dumber until it's funny, galaxy brain
Nice pfp
Lugia is arguably worse in BW because SV has HDB and Tera. The prevalence of infinite sand/hail also makes Multiscale less useful in BW. It is also Pursuit weak which isn't a problem in SV. But yeah, it's still pretty insane with fast Roost and even without Multiscale active its bulk is crazy good.
@@InsertFunnyThingHere Arceus in ou when?
@@20oxide36Nah it's worse overall, more stuff that could threaten it in an OU context in SV and it has no thunder wave or toxic, and recover pp got destroyed in gen 9, and remember the gen 9 power level is way higher
18:23 Peng says here that bulky sand teams "should" be the best and "should" be safe to bring and thats why Cloyster and Thundurus are seen as OP, can you explain this?
How can we say it "should" be good or safe. It is what it is why should it be different
yeah this is a good question - the reason i think this is cos sand, very generally, is not about chasing huge upside in the teambuilder but about assembling safe pokemon that counteract some of the busted stuff in the game. Top players run Sand because, rarely do they have a strong MU advantage at team preview, but they tend to reward the better player cos they have access to the best "teambuilder tools". Spikes are insane in BW and Exca is by far the best spinner, enabled by sand. Tyranitar is the best Pursuiter in the game to counteract the multiple Psychics. Obviously Tyranitar is also a big part of denying something like Specs Keldeo or SubTect Tentacruel. Sand has access to the best status absobers - Gliscor, Breloom, Celebi, Blissey, Clefable Seismitoad, Gastrodon, which is big in the Scald generation. Most of the mons listed here are not forming some kind of OP offensive strategy, you're just using them in a reactionary way to try and counteract things like 30% burn in the pursuit of consistency, which I personally don't think you should be able to counterstyle this strongly and easily. Something like CB Mamoswine capitalises on the same trends but is outplayable in a much more reasonable way.
YES!
Tier sounds amazing
12:36 idk if BW has best of 1s but best of 3s give you so much more data
Everything in smogon premier league is best of 1. Its borderline comical from a conpetitive perspective.
Smogon is both tryhard and baby mode casual at the same time. Oh well, at least ADV is fun.
"Free Lugia"
If BST isn't a valid argument for keeping a Pokemon banned? Maybe not that bad of an idea since the tier has its more than fair share of incredibly hard hitters and Lugia's typing (even with multiscale) sort of lets it down more often than not?
Btw having no offensive presence is a huge setback for a Poke, especially an uber
why are people wanting to ban steath rocks here
I feel like spikes are so obviously broken and I’m not sure why NOBODY brought it up for so long
it was brought up all the way back in 2015! just didn't go anywhere www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bw-reuniclus.3539351/page-2#post-6254523
@@BKCplaysPokemon I guess it makes sense I missed this since I wasn’t really too deep into things back then. Did that post end up gaining supporters/sparking real discussion on spikes? Also has anyone brought them up in the past few years that I missed?
not really unfortunately, banning moves was anathema back then (you had to jump through hoops to get anything done about baton pass of all things)
@@BKCplaysPokemonWhat was the history behind the Evasion ban like? Were there similar issues to banning moves or was it treated differently bc it was a broader mechanic?
It's weird to say but BW is probably most comparable to RBY in terms of how it feels to correctly take tiering action, and that in particular comes about in the realm of just needing to take actions for the health of the specific metagame involved rather than trying to worry about how the tier's rules are inconsistent compared to one another. Permanent Weather and the sheer prevelance of Dragons are elements specific to BW OU that don't exist in other tiers in the same generation to the same degree.
banger
I havn’t played bw since 2013 and my opinion is x
latios
Ban stealth rocks????
Rocks keeps all the broken mons barely in check (except for Magic guard friends).
You wpuld rather want a metagame with easy to dish out permanent chip damage, than having tons of games with really slow progression
You clearly haven't had to deal with multiscale dragonite or poison heal gliscor in this tier
this is insane. Every tier has its troubles.
Gen 5 OU is the black sheep of this.
@@dylanf3108every black sheep has its battles
I think keldeo is kinda underrated right now, it's still really threatening. I tried a sub, cm, surf, HP ghost set on rain HO and it just dumpsters a disgusting amount of the tier. Opposing HO struggles to withstand rain boosted surfs, opposing rain losses the moment it lets ferro die/get low, and sand really struggles too if it loses ferro. Getting a CM on a switch to a standard keld check and then clicking sub vs their toxic/scald/wilo kinda ends the game on the spot vs a bunch of teams. Plus you can treat it as a normal leftiez keldeo until the moment the reveal is opportune.
BKC
latiass
Alakazam should be banned before Reuniclus if you ask me
Ben Kive COyoU
Maybe we just need to go back and allow swift swim and all the good stuff. Let it be a broken tier. I loved playing during that time. But to be fair, total noob haha
Ban stealth rocks
Spikes are much more problematics
:)
What happens if u were to recreate a day 1 BW meta, BW1 even, if not Unova dex only-ok this one is for jokes-and then you proceed w/ 0 complex bans. No swift swim ban. It’s either, ban drizzle, or poly.
Cuz rn I see the routes possible to be
Undo gem ban, axe cloyster. Very uncool.
In SV I’m tryna see reverse. Sleep is banned? Let’s unban kings rock. Cloyster would be good. Ur not flinching between the army of booster energy, or jovert cloak, let alone ability’s built to deal w/ flinching.
On the tidbit of “cross gen examples are faulty” you’d have to know why whether game mechanic, power creep or nerf.
The fact that inner focus was never considered by the SS council is super stupid. In the same gen where pretty sure it stumps intimidate
Ban thundy? Hmm.
Unban lugia? Would be monumental, unbanning deo. He alr existed. He drops first.
Ban spikes? At least turn it into GSC, da 1 spike.
Free darkrai?! Hell ya
Also would banning latios just be more considered if keldeo was by default strapped to that rocket? BW alr has 1 unused lati